S03.E02: Mary and Martha

[Brn2bwild]

Just as an aside: Following the scene between Emily and her wife, is it wrong that I think Clea Duvall here looks a bit like Lauren Graham?   *runs*

[scrb]

On 6/5/2019 at 5:26 PM, poeticlicensed said:

I am disappointed this season. This show seems to have lost the starkness of Atwood's writing. The thing that made the novel so good was how isolated June was, how terrifying Gilead was. The thing i dreaded the most seems to be happening, they are turning June into superhero resistance fighter. The show lacks the gut wrenching punch it had the first and second season.

Or maybe people adapt at some point.  People did survive the crushing oppression of totalitarian regimes and live to tell the tale.

As for as continuing the show, they could have just made it a mini series.  But after the success of the first season, that plan probably went out the window, though I would imagine it was always planned to have multiple seasons.

In the Gilead context, being part of the resistance is the only way women can have agency?

What else can they do, spit in the Commanders' food?

[nodorothyparker]

On 6/8/2019 at 4:56 PM, Umbelina said:

I keep thinking the wife snapped because of Gilead, but so far, we don't know.  I do think we've already seen a lot of context for the Commander, a ton really.  I think more about the wife will be revealed.  She obviously detests everything about Gilead though.

I rewatched just the scenes introducing the Lawrence household from last season because I'm trying to put the pair of them into some kind of context too.  When the wife first meets Emily, she's weirdly apologetic/seemingly wanting to befriend Emily and screaming at Lawrence about what was being done in the colonies that his vision had created, and after ushering his wife away Lawrence tells Emily that "Life didn't turn out the way she wanted it to.  She was an art professor.  She wanted everything to be beautiful."

Is she mentally ill?  Has she snapped under the weight of the horror that her husband's ideas have ushered forth?  As an educated woman, does she really just hate Gilead?  Without more to go on, it feels like it could be any of the above or a combination of the three.  She seemed calm and lucid enough this episode in playing hostess to the Guardians searching for the injured Martha and telling the other women to make sure they cleaned up the blood on the wall. 

[Umbelina]

26 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I rewatched just the scenes introducing the Lawrence household from last season because I'm trying to put the pair of them into some kind of context too.  When the wife first meets Emily, she's weirdly apologetic/seemingly wanting to befriend Emily and screaming at Lawrence about what was being done in the colonies that his vision had created, and after ushering his wife away Lawrence tells Emily that "Life didn't turn out the way she wanted it to.  She was an art professor.  She wanted everything to be beautiful."

Is she mentally ill?  Has she snapped under the weight of the horror that her husband's ideas have ushered forth?  As an educated woman, does she really just hate Gilead?  Without more to go on, it feels like it could be any of the above or a combination of the three.  She seemed calm and lucid enough this episode in playing hostess to the Guardians searching for the injured Martha and telling the other women to make sure they cleaned up the blood on the wall. 

Yes, I think she was calm and lucid because she was protecting the resistance, the women.

She allows herself to be "crazy" whenever Gilead nonsense comes up, the ceremony for example, which obviously never happens in that house.  She was protective of Emily as well.  Aunt Lydia's presence is another thing that sets her off.

It may be a clue that he said "she wanted everything beautiful" and now everything around her is ugliness.  It's as if she is withdrawing in every possible way from the ugliness, UNLESS someone's fate and wellbeing is involved perhaps, where she snaps back in to reality.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Umbelina

[alexvillage]

12 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Is she mentally ill?  Has she snapped under the weight of the horror that her husband's ideas have ushered forth?  As an educated woman, does she really just hate Gilead?  Without more to go on, it feels like it could be any of the above or a combination of the three.

Or none of the above and she will be forgotten because you know, the writers.

[greekmom]

I want to see the backstory of Commander Lawrence and the wife. I think her cray cray attitude is a show.

Speaking of cray cray, Aunt Lydia is full of it.  I know that they will be bringing her backstory soon.  I just can’t accept any reasoning other than schizophrenia.

I hope that Emily gets a great ending with her wife and son reuniting and not that the wife moved on. How long have they been separated?  3 or 4 years?

Lawrence is an ass.

[Empress1]

35 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I hope that Emily gets a great ending with her wife and son reuniting and not that the wife moved on. How long have they been separated?  3 or 4 years?

I think three years. IIRC the son was 4 when they tried to flee and last season she referenced his 7th birthday.

Lord, if women in Gilead can't wear corrective lenses, I wouldn't have to worry about surviving there because natural selection would take me out.

[greekmom]

41 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Lord, if women in Gilead can't wear corrective lenses, I wouldn't have to worry about surviving there because natural selection would take me out.

LOL. I noticed even the wives, marthas, commanders, etc.  No one wears glasses.  So either LASIK is offered to the higher ups only or everyone is half blind. 

BTW - I loved the comment June made to her walking partner. About being pushed in front of a bus.

[captain1]

18 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I rewatched just the scenes introducing the Lawrence household from last season because I'm trying to put the pair of them into some kind of context too.  When the wife first meets Emily, she's weirdly apologetic/seemingly wanting to befriend Emily and screaming at Lawrence about what was being done in the colonies that his vision had created, and after ushering his wife away Lawrence tells Emily that "Life didn't turn out the way she wanted it to.  She was an art professor.  She wanted everything to be beautiful."

Is she mentally ill?  Has she snapped under the weight of the horror that her husband's ideas have ushered forth?  As an educated woman, does she really just hate Gilead?  Without more to go on, it feels like it could be any of the above or a combination of the three.  She seemed calm and lucid enough this episode in playing hostess to the Guardians searching for the injured Martha and telling the other women to make sure they cleaned up the blood on the wall. 

I thought in the scene where Lawrence is yelling at the Marthas to fix her tea that it looked like he was slipping something into it - drugging her to keep her compliant, or something?  I have to go back and rewatch.

Edited June 10, 2019 by captain1

[AllyB]

7 hours ago, greekmom said:

I noticed even the wives, marthas, commanders, etc.  No one wears glasses.  So either LASIK is offered to the higher ups only or everyone is half blind.

Commander Lawrence wears glasses.

[greekmom]

33 minutes ago, AllyB said:

Commander Lawrence wears glasses.

I stand corrected.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, but he's a man, so...

🙃

[AngelaHunter]

Okay, this is trivial, but have none of the houses in Gilead been renovated or updated since the 1940s? Are updated houses with lighting too festive for the perpetual gloom? would they make us forget how very very serious this is?

Also trivial: Oh, god I do SO not care about Luke!

[BrindaWalsh]

On 6/9/2019 at 5:28 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I rewatched just the scenes introducing the Lawrence household from last season because I'm trying to put the pair of them into some kind of context too.  When the wife first meets Emily, she's weirdly apologetic/seemingly wanting to befriend Emily and screaming at Lawrence about what was being done in the colonies that his vision had created, and after ushering his wife away Lawrence tells Emily that "Life didn't turn out the way she wanted it to.  She was an art professor.  She wanted everything to be beautiful."

Is she mentally ill?  Has she snapped under the weight of the horror that her husband's ideas have ushered forth?  As an educated woman, does she really just hate Gilead?  Without more to go on, it feels like it could be any of the above or a combination of the three.  She seemed calm and lucid enough this episode in playing hostess to the Guardians searching for the injured Martha and telling the other women to make sure they cleaned up the blood on the wall. 

I actually wonder if the wife fell into the initial group of women who supported Gilead.

The original idea of their "utopia," where women were home and able to raise their families, where there was freedom from the ills of the American lifestyle.  Remember Lydia's "freedom to/freedom from" statements: "don't underrate it."

Where men provided for their families.  Where traditional values were embraced.  And people lived in harmony with blessings from God.

Or something like that?

We don't know how she would have defined "beautiful."  She is married to a commander in Gilead, afterall.  I doubt her definition of a beautiful life is what we quickly and easily assumed.  

[Umbelina]

30 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Okay, this is trivial, but have none of the houses in Gilead been renovated or updated since the 1940s? Are updated houses with lighting too festive for the perpetual gloom? would they make us forget how very very serious this is?

Also trivial: Oh, god I do SO not care about Luke!

The whole "back to the good old days" movement, along with the shockingly modern concept of a GREEN world, using less power, hand kneaded bread and all the rest.

23 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

I actually wonder if the wife fell into the initial group of women who supported Gilead.

The original idea of their "utopia," where women were home and able to raise their families, where there was freedom from the ills of the American lifestyle.  Remember Lydia's "freedom to/freedom from" statements: "don't underrate it."

Where men provided for their families.  Where traditional values were embraced.  And people lived in harmony with blessings from God.

Or something like that?

We don't know how she would have defined "beautiful."  She is married to a commander in Gilead, afterall.  I doubt her definition of a beautiful life is what we quickly and easily assumed.  

She has very little power to make anything beautiful now, least of all, her very existence.

On 6/9/2019 at 8:40 AM, scrb said:

Or maybe people adapt at some point.  People did survive the crushing oppression of totalitarian regimes and live to tell the tale.

As for as continuing the show, they could have just made it a mini series.  But after the success of the first season, that plan probably went out the window, though I would imagine it was always planned to have multiple seasons.

In the Gilead context, being part of the resistance is the only way women can have agency?

What else can they do, spit in the Commanders' food?

Yeah, I may regret saying this, and I have been pretty critical of the show, but this season is showing promise for me.

They could still blow it of course, but I like the idea of a rag tag seat of their pants resistance, and that does seem real to me.  I went back and watched and June's "plot armor" really was only completely obnoxious during the lack of aftermath from the birth, and then visiting Hannah again this season.  That other commander seems powerful, or did I miss something?  With Fred demoted, I'd think he might complain?

She has been punished, cattle prodded, knocked around, giving solitary confinement twice, had her feet beaten bloody, along with all the other every day tortures of being raped, afraid, unable to read or even speak her mind. 

When you look at the handmaids, very few are visibly maimed, that doesn't mean they haven't suffered. 

Her pregnancy has saved her a few times, Nick being an EYE and the Commander's misdeads have saved her other times, forcing the entire house to band together for anyone to survive.

I am seriously not looking forward to one of the spoilers, but even that one may work if it leads to (book and real spoiler below)

Spoiler

Fred finally being executed.  Fred and Serena getting back together would make it more poignant, and I'm loving the danger Serena may be in from an executed husband, but the whole visiting Nicole thing is annoying be beyond belief, UNLESS it means a trap of some kind.

So, I'm cautiously hopeful here, especially (no spoiler) if it means we will see the wars via Nick, and I hope dearly that not only brings in more of the outside world, in this case, the United (2) States, the resistance, and that Gilead is losing.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[BrindaWalsh]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

She has very little power to make anything beautiful now, least of all, her very existence.

I don't think anybody disagrees?  

We have already seen women who are regretting their initial support of Gilead, Serena being one of them, as unsympathetic as she is.  I don't know that just because this woman is "broken" by the role her husband has played in this regime, that means she started out as anti-Gilead from the beginning.  

Actually  - and I ask this as a legitimate question - have we seen that she lost her mind because of Gilead?  Or because of the role HER HUSBAND played in its creation.  There is a distinction there.  

I'm just not convinced she was any different than Serena.  She just dropped her basket sooner.

Assuming that the crazy is legit.  

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

I don't think anybody disagrees?  

We have already seen women who are regretting their initial support of Gilead, Serena being one of them, as unsympathetic as she is.  I don't know that just because this woman is "broken" by the role her husband has played in this regime, that means she started out as anti-Gilead from the beginning.  

Actually  - and I ask this as a legitimate question - have we seen that she lost her mind because of Gilead?  Or because of the role HER HUSBAND played in its creation.  There is a distinction there.  

I'm just not convinced she was any different than Serena.  She just dropped her basket sooner.

Assuming that the crazy is legit.  

No, and we don't know if she fought against Gilead being created either.

She interests me though, that's why we are all speculating.

She honestly doesn't seem completely nuts to me though, I think accepting and going along with Gilead is way more nuts.

[Anela]

27 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

No, and we don't know if she fought against Gilead being created either.

She interests me though, that's why we are all speculating.

She honestly doesn't seem completely nuts to me though, I think accepting and going along with Gilead is way more nuts.

Right, she's having a perfectly sane response to all of it - especially her husband helping to create it all. 

[ferjy]

Aunt Lydia survived?? It looked like she was a goner. She takes a licking and keeps on ticking! 

[ferjy]

On 6/5/2019 at 8:26 PM, poeticlicensed said:

I am disappointed this season. This show seems to have lost the starkness of Atwood's writing. The thing that made the novel so good was how isolated June was, how terrifying Gilead was. The thing i dreaded the most seems to be happening, they are turning June into superhero resistance fighter. The show lacks the gut wrenching punch it had the first and second season.

Btw wasnt Emily in the colonies where women were dying of radiation poisoning? Color me surprised when she got a clean bill of health. 

I hate the superhero status too. I half expect June to show up in cape and tights in a future episode. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 6/5/2019 at 10:08 PM, Anela said:

I'm watching it, and almost stopped when Luke was having his little fit at the dinner table. I don't know how long it's been, but he's acting like a spoiled little shit. What, is he pissed that his wife chose not to come, and taking it out on Emily? He saw all of those letters from those women, and is living with two former handmaids. She didn't risk her life to get June's baby to Canada and safety, just for him to shit all over her. 

Luke was being a total jerk, but I can buy it. Because not only did June choose not to come to Canada but now he also has to basically raise the baby that his wife had with another man. Although i can't remember if he knows if the baby is Nick's or Waterford's.

On 6/6/2019 at 1:31 AM, Miles said:

Doesn't matter. They notified Lue when she got there, because she was on his list. They didn't ask her if they could or not. Why would that be any different here.

What is the timeline between Moira making it to Canada and Emily making it. Because I can see it being totally possible that the government might revise its policies about notifying people between those events happen once they realize it could cause problems.

On 6/10/2019 at 8:11 PM, Umbelina said:

The whole "back to the good old days" movement, along with the shockingly modern concept of a GREEN world, using less power, hand kneaded bread and all the rest.

I think they are green by default more than by choice. Gilead seems anti-education (certainly anti-women's education) and I can easily see educated people being anti-gilead as well. It would be hard to maintain a high tech industrial society without an educated population to run it. Especially when you say right from the start that half the population can't run anything.

Also can someone give me a better rundown on what happned with the Martha's this episode. Was the one that came back with her friend that was killed the same one they left in the van in the laundry place (the bomb maker)?

[Anela]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Luke was being a total jerk, but I can buy it. Because not only did June choose not to come to Canada but now he also has to basically raise the baby that his wife had with another man. Although i can't remember if he knows if the baby is Nick's or Waterford's.

I can buy it, but not putting his anger on Emily. 

[secnarf]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Luke was being a total jerk, but I can buy it. Because not only did June choose not to come to Canada but now he also has to basically raise the baby that his wife had with another man. Although i can't remember if he knows if the baby is Nick's or Waterford's.

What is the timeline between Moira making it to Canada and Emily making it. Because I can see it being totally possible that the government might revise its policies about notifying people between those events happen once they realize it could cause problems.

I also can't remember if he knows the father of the baby - I think Nick told him it was Waterford's but I don't know if Emily knew otherwise and if she did, whether or not she told Luke.

My headcanon for the family reunification is that Moira said she had no family, so they couldn't look anyone up for her, but she did end up coming up on Luke's list so he got called. Emily said she did have family in Canada, so they instead gave Emily her wife's contact info - hopefully after verifying that Emily was on Sylvia's list as well.

[AngelaHunter]

22 hours ago, ferjy said:

Aunt Lydia survived?? It looked like she was a goner. She takes a licking and keeps on ticking! 

I was shocked to see her. I was sure she died last season and certainly deserved it. But no, here she is being wheeled around and toting her little taser. It seems no one does get what they deserve. It's so unsatisfying.

Really, I shouldn't complain. I'm the dumbass who sat and stared at this on my screen for at least ten minutes:

[Emily Thrace]

On 6/9/2019 at 4:28 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I rewatched just the scenes introducing the Lawrence household from last season because I'm trying to put the pair of them into some kind of context too.  When the wife first meets Emily, she's weirdly apologetic/seemingly wanting to befriend Emily and screaming at Lawrence about what was being done in the colonies that his vision had created, and after ushering his wife away Lawrence tells Emily that "Life didn't turn out the way she wanted it to.  She was an art professor.  She wanted everything to be beautiful."

Is she mentally ill?  Has she snapped under the weight of the horror that her husband's ideas have ushered forth?  As an educated woman, does she really just hate Gilead?  Without more to go on, it feels like it could be any of the above or a combination of the three.  She seemed calm and lucid enough this episode in playing hostess to the Guardians searching for the injured Martha and telling the other women to make sure they cleaned up the blood on the wall. 

She might be clinically depressed. Depressed people can be active if they have to it just takes more effort. One thing I noticed last season is that the actress who plays Mrs Lawrence is Jewish. I think it explains a lot about her reactions to everything and her relationship with her husband if the character is Jewish as well. The colonies being the worst of it considering their Auschwitz like nature. It also explains why Mr Lawrence is so protective of her. As a recent "convert" she would be under a lot of suspicion even without the rest of it. 

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Luke was being a total jerk, but I can buy it. Because not only did June choose not to come to Canada but now he also has to basically raise the baby that his wife had with another man. Although i can't remember if he knows if the baby is Nick's or Waterford's.

What is the timeline between Moira making it to Canada and Emily making it. Because I can see it being totally possible that the government might revise its policies about notifying people between those events happen once they realize it could cause problems.

I think they are green by default more than by choice. Gilead seems anti-education (certainly anti-women's education) and I can easily see educated people being anti-gilead as well. It would be hard to maintain a high tech industrial society without an educated population to run it. Especially when you say right from the start that half the population can't run anything.

Also can someone give me a better rundown on what happned with the Martha's this episode. Was the one that came back with her friend that was killed the same one they left in the van in the laundry place (the bomb maker)?

nah, Gilead is Green by design, they think technology, pollution, and women being loose and "equal" lead to the baby crisis.  By design as far as no trade agreements though, but they were going green as a platform anyway.

Luke is always a jerk.

1 hour ago, secnarf said:

I also can't remember if he knows the father of the baby - I think Nick told him it was Waterford's but I don't know if Emily knew otherwise and if she did, whether or not she told Luke.

My headcanon for the family reunification is that Moira said she had no family, so they couldn't look anyone up for her, but she did end up coming up on Luke's list so he got called. Emily said she did have family in Canada, so they instead gave Emily her wife's contact info - hopefully after verifying that Emily was on Sylvia's list as well.

Nick told him the baby is Waterford's.

[Umbelina]

On 6/10/2019 at 10:31 PM, ferjy said:

I hate the superhero status too. I half expect June to show up in cape and tights in a future episode. 

How is she a superhero?  She's scared shitless, and was during the whole bomber is bleeding to death and the Guardians are outside.  She was scared but naively excited to go along on the escape mission.  She is terrified of Lawrence, and her usual tricks are not working for her, so she's throwing everything and anything at him to see what will work.  She expects to die bucking the system, and really hasn't got much to lose.  She isn't going anywhere without Hannah, and to get Hannah out she, as she said, "needs allies." 

She's taking risks to gain those allies, but "superhero?"  Where?  If anything, she's more inept that ever, but simply not giving up.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Umbelina
fixed boo boo

[ferjy]

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

How is she a superhero?  She's scared shitless, and was during the whole bomber is bleeding to death and the Guardians are outside.  She was scared but naively excited to go along on the escape mission.  She is terrified of Lawrence, and her usual tricks are not working for her, so she's throwing everything and anything at him to see what will work.  She expects to die bucking the system, and really hasn't got much to lose.  She isn't going anywhere without Hannah, and to get Hannah out she, as she said, "needs allies." 

She's taking risks to gain those allies, but "superhero?"  Where?  If anything, she's more inept that ever, but simply not giving up.

Interesting that you quote my post when half the posts here are talking about this issue. Read back and you’ll see why we think it. It’s been elaborated on in different posts. 

[goldilocks]

9 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was shocked to see her. I was sure she died last season and certainly deserved it. But no, here she is being wheeled around and toting her little taser. It seems no one does get what they deserve. It's so unsatisfying.

Really, I shouldn't complain. I'm the dumbass who sat and stared at this on my screen for at least ten minutes:

Sorry, what’s on the screen? 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

Interesting that you quote my post when half the posts here are talking about this issue. Read back and you’ll see why we think it. It’s been elaborated on in different posts. 

Yours is the post I saw.

I don't see her as a superhero at all.  Where do you see that?

I get that people dislike Moss, and I have a lot of problems with the show myself.  However, the superhero thing escapes me.

ETA

She's FAR from it actually, as I showed above.  However, I will add, she's so outclassed in brains with Lawrence that she's desperately trying dangerous things, such as telling him off.  She remembered that advice, "he hates to be bored" but she's taking very big risks for very little pay off so far.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Umbelina

[goldilocks]

On 6/6/2019 at 1:30 PM, Miles said:

I mean, don't get me wrong, season two was boring and this one is shaping up to be even worse, but the handmaids tale isn't an epic novel with a sprawling story and a ton of multi faceted characters. It's a realtively short book with half of it being June sitting in her room.

There wasn't more there than one season. Iff they had stretched it, season one never would have been as good as it was.

Their big mistake was not letting go of June and the waterford household after season one, half way through season two at the latest. Sadly it seems they still haven't learned their lesseon.

I also had the distinct feeling that his character changed a lot from last season, to make things more suspensfull, I guess. I'm so over the inconsistent writing.

That’s what I thought and I was confused by it. I thought I’d missed a few crucial episodes! Last season he was portrayed as a savior. It seemed his house was a secret haven for handmaids and others that wrong was being done to. Suddenly this season he’s as bad as the other males and an asshole. I thought he was putting on a show at first (maybe he thought he was being watched?) but now it seems like he’s just a jerk. Why the sudden switcheroo?

Edited June 12, 2019 by goldilocks

[jenn31]

39 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yours is the post I saw.

I don't see her as a superhero at all.  Where do you see that?

I get that people dislike Moss, and I have a lot of problems with the show myself.  However, the superhero thing escapes me.

ETA

She's FAR from it actually, as I showed above.  However, I will add, she's so outclassed in brains with Lawrence that she's desperately trying dangerous things, such as telling him off.  She remembered that advice, "he hates to be bored" but she's taking very big risks for very little pay off so far.

Because she isn’t terrified. I’m not sure where you’re seeing that she is. They have made June into a superhero. I’ll quote AnswersWanted because they are right on the mark about what June was supposed to be like: “June is not some superwoman spymaster who is invincible. She's a terrified victim just trying to stay alive.” The former is how they are portraying June now, the invincible superwoman spymaster superhero. She should be dead or in the colonies by now. But no, she marches on doing everything wrong yet still surviving. 

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, goldilocks said:

Sorry, what’s on the screen? 

That's what I was wondering as I watched it. Scenes shot in near-complete darkness are frustrating.

[jenn31]

On 6/7/2019 at 7:38 AM, alexvillage said:

Book spoiler

  Reveal spoiler

Not only that, the book is told from a far away future. Gilead was a successful oppressive place that lasted for a long time. The writers, if they have a plan at all, seem to be planning on having June be the hero of the liberation by season 10 (?), which would make Gilead the opposite of what Margaret Atwood conveyed in the book. 

June taking control of the resistance was a dick move. The Marthas have been getting people out for a while, they take June to the door to freedom, she comes back risking the whole movement, then decides she knows better than anyone?

The inconsistency of how Gilead is supposed to be - how handmaids need to not talk or even look around for example is getting more than annoying. I keep hoping that every time June is defiant she gets a swat from a guardian. Really, just to shut her up.

Yep, that really bothered me. Superhero June to the rescue, once again. And botches it up again.

I agree on the second point too. She gets away with too much. She should have lost fingers, eyes, toes, half her body with the defiance she keeps exhibiting. 

[goldilocks]

17 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

That's what I was wondering as I watched it. Scenes shot in near-complete darkness are frustrating.

Oh, LOL! Yeah, I have to crank my brightness way up for this show.

[AnswersWanted]

51 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

Because she isn’t terrified. I’m not sure where you’re seeing that she is. They have made June into a superhero. I’ll quote AnswersWanted because they are right on the mark about what June was supposed to be like: “June is not some superwoman spymaster who is invincible. She's a terrified victim just trying to stay alive.” The former is how they are portraying June now, the invincible superwoman spymaster superhero. She should be dead or in the colonies by now. But no, she marches on doing everything wrong yet still surviving. 

Her invincibility is just beyond at this point to me.

She wasn't even a high ranking citizen to start with, like the Waterford's, so there is truly no excuse why she's still breathing after being recaptured.

She would have been tortured for information about the resistance and then done away with, either shipped off to the colonies or Jezebel's, or she would have been hung from a crane or put on the wall for full display as a warning. 

But no, instead we get this chick who has turned into human teflon, nothing sticks to her.

43 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

Yep, that really bothered me. Superhero June to the rescue, once again. And botches it up again.

I agree on the second point too. She gets away with too much. She should have lost fingers, eyes, toes, half her body with the defiance she keeps exhibiting. 

I wouldn't be surprised if June had the ability to rejuvenate her body parts, so even those punishments wouldn't work on her. 

She's the handmaid warrior princess,, unstoppable, untouchable, and mostly unbelievable. 

[ferjy]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yours is the post I saw.

I don't see her as a superhero at all.  Where do you see that?

I get that people dislike Moss, and I have a lot of problems with the show myself.  However, the superhero thing escapes me.

ETA

She's FAR from it actually, as I showed above.  However, I will add, she's so outclassed in brains with Lawrence that she's desperately trying dangerous things, such as telling him off.  She remembered that advice, "he hates to be bored" but she's taking very big risks for very little pay off so far.

Well I don't know what else to tell you if all the other posts here saying exactly the opposite don't convince you.  "She can't be beat" is basically the theme now with June. She can do whatever she likes and get away with it while other handmaids suffer all kinds of consequences for doing a lot less. Taking over the Marthas' resistance project was an unbelievably stupid bit of writing. It would have been far more interesting to see the Marthas carry out the plan on their own without June riding in on her white horse and taking over.

[Kel Varnsen]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

nah, Gilead is Green by design, they think technology, pollution, and women being loose and "equal" lead to the baby crisis.  By design as far as no trade agreements though, but they were going green as a platform anyway.

See I read that as just spin. I see it as they don't have the workforce (what with having to maintain a wartime military/security force and not letting women work) nor the brainpower to run a proper advanced industrial nation. Especially when they don't have any trade agreements. So when you can't run a huge clothing factory you just get wives to sew their own clothes and say it is green. When you can't maintain a power grid like the US used to have you just get rid of electronics and a lot of the lighting and say it is green. When you can't buy food from other countries and your transportation network is not great and you don't have enough workers and no immigrants for large scale farming you can just grow a limited amount of food, sell it locally and call it green.

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, AnswersWanted said:

Her invincibility is just beyond at this point to me.

She wasn't even a high ranking citizen to start with, like the Waterford's, so there is truly no excuse why she's still breathing after being recaptured.

She would have been tortured for information about the resistance and then done away with, either shipped off to the colonies or Jezebel's, or she would have been hung from a crane or put on the wall for full display as a warning. 

But no, instead we get this chick who has turned into human teflon, nothing sticks to her.

I wouldn't be surprised if June had the ability to rejuvenate her body parts, so even those punishments wouldn't work on her. 

She's the handmaid warrior princess,, unstoppable, untouchable, and mostly unbelievable. 

lol, no doubt.

I'm off to watch the 4th episode and see what great feats June accomplishes to save the day.

[ferjy]

On 6/5/2019 at 7:15 PM, ShellySelf said:

I’m about 19 minutes into the second episode. When they’re in the kitchen, does June say, “alright Breaking Bad, let’s go”?? My closed captioning isn’t working but that’s what it sounded like. If so, Breaking Bad is a thing in their world? Or is that an expression used every day that I’m unaware of?

It did jar a bit. But I think it is a saying that was used before the show. A lot of idioms are used as show titles.

Edited June 12, 2019 by ferjy

[chaifan]

I always assumed Handmaids Tale (the show, not the book) was set just a few years into our future.  So a reference back to Breaking Bad wouldn't be out of place.  It did stick out a bit, but I think because pop culture references just aren't used much on the show.   Now, I wonder if they could fit in a Kardashian reference somehow. 

ETA:  I'll admit Teflon June doesn't really bother me much.  I look at it like every action show where the main character is in peril every episode, but somehow manages to make it through at the end.  Because, well, they're the main character. 

Edited June 12, 2019 by chaifan

[alexvillage]

I am amusing myself by picturing the final episode of the series that will have June, all smirk big faced, wearing she sort of Wonder Woman outfit, marching across the border into Canada, parting rivers and forests, with all Handmaids, Martha's and freed children behind her, as the wives who changed sides drag their husbands as a punishment, leaving them just before the border crossing to fend for themselves without any woman.

Of course, at the pace this show is going, I bet I'll give up watching way before the final season.

[AnswersWanted]

39 minutes ago, ferjy said:

lol, no doubt.

I'm off to watch the 4th episode and see what great feats June accomplishes to save the day.

Oh it shouldn’t disappoint, heh. 

My main issue with June getting a pass all the time is due to what this show was meant to be about. 

I never saw Gilead operating like a James Bond or John Wick film, a place where a super human who never dies and always beats the bad guys is the main character.

I understand the show wants to keep its’ viewers interested, but did they really need to leap all the way to “The Handmaid’s Tale: Alias Edition”? 

I personally appreciated the show a lot more when they cared about realism and the horrors of the truth about humanity, not complete and total fiction that keeps certain characters alive despite their repetitively stupid decisions that should have gotten them killed ages ago. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

See I read that as just spin. I see it as they don't have the workforce (what with having to maintain a wartime military/security force and not letting women work) nor the brainpower to run a proper advanced industrial nation. Especially when they don't have any trade agreements. So when you can't run a huge clothing factory you just get wives to sew their own clothes and say it is green. When you can't maintain a power grid like the US used to have you just get rid of electronics and a lot of the lighting and say it is green. When you can't buy food from other countries and your transportation network is not great and you don't have enough workers and no immigrants for large scale farming you can just grow a limited amount of food, sell it locally and call it green.

Nonetheless, they also campaigned on Green issues.  Pollution and planet devastation was a theme in both show and book.  The lack of babies being born was definitely related to lack of clean air, water, nuclear accidents.  We've heard a lot of characters speak about it, Serena, Aunt Lydia and her propaganda films, we saw Emily and the others cleaning up the waste.

Of course, then they just staged a coup, and as we recently heard, they still like their dry cleaning.  😉

Hyperbole is fun, but superheros have special powers and save the day without breaking a sweat.  June has suffered plenty.  Her feet were beaten raw and bloody, she's been in solitary twice, she was chained to a bed while pregnant, she was brutally raped while pregnant, but apparently until she loses a body part some will not think that woman has suffered enough, even though very few handmaids lose body parts.  You can't SEE Emily's either, so I suppose it doesn't count either.

Also, I take exception to "she took over" the resistance.  The resistance is huge, massive numbers, and it's taken just the tiny little local Martha group forever to even trust her a tiny bit.  She offered a temporary solution, and made that work, at personal risk.  They insulted her for it, "some blowjob" but admitted her to their group when it worked.  They didn't decide she is their leader.  They allowed her to come on the route simply to see how it worked.

That's how people in oppressed regimes work, they are careful, if someone proves themselves they are cautiously allowed in.  They need numbers.  I don't even see June heading up the tiny Martha group, let alone the whole resistance.

Too bad Moss didn't get a nose job like nearly everyone else, then she would be prettier and more acceptable as a lead.  The endless comments about how ugly she is, and how it makes people sick to look at her are another thing I've ignored, but feel like responding to now.  She looks like a normal person, or at least "normal" as far as ugly outfits and hair styles, no lotion, and no make up, as well as being pregnant for most of last season.

If she did look like a stunning wonder woman in her corset and fake lashes and hair extensions, maybe people would like June rebelling?

I have issues with the show, plenty of them, none of them revolve around Moss's looks.  I agree with the whole Teflon thing but that's true of all of our leads on this show.  Plot Armor doesn't just exist for June, it's for all of their featured actors.

Moira assaulted an Aunt, and didn't lose body parts, she went to Jezebels.  Then escaped, AGAIN.  Oh, and she's had plenty of close ups.  Why wasn't she hung?  Or stabbed?  Nah, "superhero" (by these terms) Moira just steals a car, gets the letters to June, and evading all Guardians, makes it to Canada.

Janine kidnapped a baby (in Gilead law) and threatened to kill it.  Plenty of close ups of her too, and she escaped with apparently no damage from radiation poisoning and is back being sassy.  She lost an eye though, and she's prettier, so it's OK.  Her plot armor is fine.

Ditto Emily.  She has an illegal affair, is mutilated, then tries to kill Aunt Lydia, but plot armor, she meets Lawrence (apparently by his design) and just as he saved June (for now) he saved Emily.  She's stunning though, so no big deal, and her close ups, which are numerous, are pleasing, so that's OK.  "Superhero" Emily swims in a heavy cloak through freezing fast water, never even taking off her glaring white hat, and is now free, and so is equally plot armored baby Nicole.

Fred and Serena both should be long dead, and once again, plot armor for them numerous times.  Lots of super close ups on each of them as well.

Add Nick to that, he lost his protector who was killed in the bombing, why is he still able to blackmail Fred?  OK, Fred's an idiot, but suddenly Nick (in it up to his eyeballs with the Nicole mess, and the visiting Hannah mess) just escapes all consequences, including his unfaithful wife, AND gets promoted on top of it all, even though Fred knows he fucked the handmaid and is passing off his baby as Fred's too.

Don't even get me started on Luke.

It's bad writing all the way around, but all of the hate comes down on Moss and June. 

[AngelaHunter]

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The endless comments about how ugly she is, and how it makes people sick to look at her are another thing I've ignored, but feel like responding to now.  She looks like a normal person, or at least "normal" as far as ugly outfits and hair styles, no lotion, and no make up, as well as being pregnant for most of last season.

I agree she looks like a regular, everyday person. I certainly don't think she's "ugly". I would find her less believable if she were some kind of 20-something super-model type, which is so popular in other shows, where every female cop, lawyer and even forensic pathologist look like they just removed their "Miss America" crown - all gleaming teeth, luxuriant hair, and size-2 bodies. It's her actions and not her looks that have begun to annoy me.

56 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Don't even get me started on Luke.

Same.

56 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It's bad writing all the way around

Yep, and I had such high hopes.

[jenn31]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Nonetheless, they also campaigned on Green issues.  Pollution and planet devastation was a theme in both show and book.  The lack of babies being born was definitely related to lack of clean air, water, nuclear accidents.  We've heard a lot of characters speak about it, Serena, Aunt Lydia and her propaganda films, we saw Emily and the others cleaning up the waste.

Of course, then they just staged a coup, and as we recently heard, they still like their dry cleaning.  😉

Hyperbole is fun, but superheros have special powers and save the day without breaking a sweat.  June has suffered plenty.  Her feet were beaten raw and bloody, she's been in solitary twice, she was chained to a bed while pregnant, she was brutally raped while pregnant, but apparently until she loses a body part some will not think that woman has suffered enough, even though very few handmaids lose body parts.  You can't SEE Emily's either, so I suppose it doesn't count either.

Also, I take exception to "she took over" the resistance.  The resistance is huge, massive numbers, and it's taken just the tiny little local Martha group forever to even trust her a tiny bit.  She offered a temporary solution, and made that work, at personal risk.  They insulted her for it, "some blowjob" but admitted her to their group when it worked.  They didn't decide she is their leader.  They allowed her to come on the route simply to see how it worked.

That's how people in oppressed regimes work, they are careful, if someone proves themselves they are cautiously allowed in.  They need numbers.  I don't even see June heading up the tiny Martha group, let alone the whole resistance.

Too bad Moss didn't get a nose job like nearly everyone else, then she would be prettier and more acceptable as a lead.  The endless comments about how ugly she is, and how it makes people sick to look at her are another thing I've ignored, but feel like responding to now.  She looks like a normal person, or at least "normal" as far as ugly outfits and hair styles, no lotion, and no make up, as well as being pregnant for most of last season.

If she did look like a stunning wonder woman in her corset and fake lashes and hair extensions, maybe people would like June rebelling?

I have issues with the show, plenty of them, none of them revolve around Moss's looks.  I agree with the whole Teflon thing but that's true of all of our leads on this show.  Plot Armor doesn't just exist for June, it's for all of their featured actors.

Moira assaulted an Aunt, and didn't lose body parts, she went to Jezebels.  Then escaped, AGAIN.  Oh, and she's had plenty of close ups.  Why wasn't she hung?  Or stabbed?  Nah, "superhero" (by these terms) Moira just steals a car, gets the letters to June, and evading all Guardians, makes it to Canada.

Janine kidnapped a baby (in Gilead law) and threatened to kill it.  Plenty of close ups of her too, and she escaped with apparently no damage from radiation poisoning and is back being sassy.  She lost an eye though, and she's prettier, so it's OK.  Her plot armor is fine.

Ditto Emily.  She has an illegal affair, is mutilated, then tries to kill Aunt Lydia, but plot armor, she meets Lawrence (apparently by his design) and just as he saved June (for now) he saved Emily.  She's stunning though, so no big deal, and her close ups, which are numerous, are pleasing, so that's OK.  "Superhero" Emily swims in a heavy cloak through freezing fast water, never even taking off her glaring white hat, and is now free, and so is equally plot armored baby Nicole.

Fred and Serena both should be long dead, and once again, plot armor for them numerous times.  Lots of super close ups on each of them as well.

Add Nick to that, he lost his protector who was killed in the bombing, why is he still able to blackmail Fred?  OK, Fred's an idiot, but suddenly Nick (in it up to his eyeballs with the Nicole mess, and the visiting Hannah mess) just escapes all consequences, including his unfaithful wife, AND gets promoted on top of it all, even though Fred knows he fucked the handmaid and is passing off his baby as Fred's too.

Don't even get me started on Luke.

It's bad writing all the way around, but all of the hate comes down on Moss and June. 

No, we wouldn’t. You’re missing the whole point. You’re mixing the comments about her looks with the issue about her “superpowers”. One has nothing to do with the other. Regardless of what she looks like (even if she’s drop dead gorgeous) she shouldn’t be getting away with all the things she’s been getting away with. No one is disputing the pain she’s gone through, only that she isn’t being dealt with by Gilead rules like everyone else is. 

You’re really stuck on the looks comments. It’s not that we’re shallow. The problem we are having is that the main character was supposed to be attractive. If the show decided to change that because they found a great actress who didn’t fit the visual description, I could live with that. But EM isn’t either of those. 

As for Emily, Alexis Bledel’s acting is great in this role. Yes, there are some tropes with her character, but they’re not constant. 

Also, a lot of people have complained about the Waterfords too and other issues. It’s not just June.

[Umbelina]

The main character is supposed to be attractive? 

Did I miss something?

Personally, I prefer real noses, and I don't think Moss is unattractive.

[ferjy]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Nonetheless, they also campaigned on Green issues.  Pollution and planet devastation was a theme in both show and book.  The lack of babies being born was definitely related to lack of clean air, water, nuclear accidents.  We've heard a lot of characters speak about it, Serena, Aunt Lydia and her propaganda films, we saw Emily and the others cleaning up the waste.

Of course, then they just staged a coup, and as we recently heard, they still like their dry cleaning.  😉

Hyperbole is fun, but superheros have special powers and save the day without breaking a sweat.  June has suffered plenty.  Her feet were beaten raw and bloody, she's been in solitary twice, she was chained to a bed while pregnant, she was brutally raped while pregnant, but apparently until she loses a body part some will not think that woman has suffered enough, even though very few handmaids lose body parts.  You can't SEE Emily's either, so I suppose it doesn't count either.

Also, I take exception to "she took over" the resistance.  The resistance is huge, massive numbers, and it's taken just the tiny little local Martha group forever to even trust her a tiny bit.  She offered a temporary solution, and made that work, at personal risk.  They insulted her for it, "some blowjob" but admitted her to their group when it worked.  They didn't decide she is their leader.  They allowed her to come on the route simply to see how it worked.

That's how people in oppressed regimes work, they are careful, if someone proves themselves they are cautiously allowed in.  They need numbers.  I don't even see June heading up the tiny Martha group, let alone the whole resistance.

Too bad Moss didn't get a nose job like nearly everyone else, then she would be prettier and more acceptable as a lead.  The endless comments about how ugly she is, and how it makes people sick to look at her are another thing I've ignored, but feel like responding to now.  She looks like a normal person, or at least "normal" as far as ugly outfits and hair styles, no lotion, and no make up, as well as being pregnant for most of last season.

If she did look like a stunning wonder woman in her corset and fake lashes and hair extensions, maybe people would like June rebelling?

I have issues with the show, plenty of them, none of them revolve around Moss's looks.  I agree with the whole Teflon thing but that's true of all of our leads on this show.  Plot Armor doesn't just exist for June, it's for all of their featured actors.

Moira assaulted an Aunt, and didn't lose body parts, she went to Jezebels.  Then escaped, AGAIN.  Oh, and she's had plenty of close ups.  Why wasn't she hung?  Or stabbed?  Nah, "superhero" (by these terms) Moira just steals a car, gets the letters to June, and evading all Guardians, makes it to Canada.

Janine kidnapped a baby (in Gilead law) and threatened to kill it.  Plenty of close ups of her too, and she escaped with apparently no damage from radiation poisoning and is back being sassy.  She lost an eye though, and she's prettier, so it's OK.  Her plot armor is fine.

Ditto Emily.  She has an illegal affair, is mutilated, then tries to kill Aunt Lydia, but plot armor, she meets Lawrence (apparently by his design) and just as he saved June (for now) he saved Emily.  She's stunning though, so no big deal, and her close ups, which are numerous, are pleasing, so that's OK.  "Superhero" Emily swims in a heavy cloak through freezing fast water, never even taking off her glaring white hat, and is now free, and so is equally plot armored baby Nicole.

Fred and Serena both should be long dead, and once again, plot armor for them numerous times.  Lots of super close ups on each of them as well.

Add Nick to that, he lost his protector who was killed in the bombing, why is he still able to blackmail Fred?  OK, Fred's an idiot, but suddenly Nick (in it up to his eyeballs with the Nicole mess, and the visiting Hannah mess) just escapes all consequences, including his unfaithful wife, AND gets promoted on top of it all, even though Fred knows he fucked the handmaid and is passing off his baby as Fred's too.

Don't even get me started on Luke.

It's bad writing all the way around, but all of the hate comes down on Moss and June. 

I don’t think all of the hate is about June, it’s just more prominent because she’s the lead character.  A lot has been addressed about the general bad writing.

Ugly is a bit harsh. Aside from the fact that a lot of the comments were jocularity, I don’t think people are saying Emily Moss is ugly per se, more that she makes ugly faces.

Absolutely agree about Luke. What a disagreeable character. He’s been an ass from the start, from leaving his wife for June to making everything about himself, even now. His behaviour to Emily was awful. Spoiled brat. lol

[ferjy]

5 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

Oh it shouldn’t disappoint, heh. 

My main issue with June getting a pass all the time is due to what this show was meant to be about. 

I never saw Gilead operating like a James Bond or John Wick film, a place where a super human who never dies and always beats the bad guys is the main character.

I understand the show wants to keep its’ viewers interested, but did they really need to leap all the way to “The Handmaid’s Tale: Alias Edition”? 

I personally appreciated the show a lot more when they cared about realism and the horrors of the truth about humanity, not complete and total fiction that keeps certain characters alive despite their repetitively stupid decisions that should have gotten them killed ages ago. 

It excelled on that front,  I'm sad to say.

[echo.Echo.ECHO]

On 6/10/2019 at 7:54 PM, BrindaWalsh said:

I actually wonder if the wife fell into the initial group of women who supported Gilead.

The original idea of their "utopia," where women were home and able to raise their families, where there was freedom from the ills of the American lifestyle.  Remember Lydia's "freedom to/freedom from" statements: "don't underrate it."

Where men provided for their families.  Where traditional values were embraced.  And people lived in harmony with blessings from God.

Or something like that?

We don't know how she would have defined "beautiful."  She is married to a commander in Gilead, afterall.  I doubt her definition of a beautiful life is what we quickly and easily assumed.  

Quoting this just because it seems to be a good jumping off point for my theory of the Lawrences.

My thought is that the Lawrences were professors. He's economics, she's art. Some time ago he published a paper about the economics of some utopian society. As the Gilead people were getting warmed up, they started bandying about his article as a model for their new society. Despite his disbelief and misgivings, Lawrence saw the writing on the wall and went all-in. This is his survival option. He can keep himself and his wife alive if he is considered the architect of this new realm.

I think that Mrs. Lawrence feels so incredibly guilty about this that it's driven her a little bit crazy. But Commander Lawrence knows that if he lets her go off half-cocked, they will both be executed. Thus, the various scenes we see of him keeping her under wraps.

I think that Commander Lawrence is also doing what he can to save those he can. However, he knows this is a very dangerous game, so he trusts no one. He doesn't like liars for a reason. He doesn't want a new handmaid turning his home into an underground railroad for a reason. It's too dangerous to all of them. I think Commander Lawrence picks and chooses his battles and saves who he can when he can. He sees June as a loose cannon with the potential to take them all down. That's why he's being such a shit to her.