S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[MrsR]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

By the way, did Lena's "appearance" in the last episode qualify her for an Emmy nod?  Stand around drinking wine, lay around dead, what's the difference?

It keeps her in the running but it won't get her one. But more importantly it keeps her qualified for the SAG award for best ensemble.

Edited May 23, 2019 by MrsR

[Umbelina]

I figured that's why Tyrion found the bodies.

What did he get this episode?  3/4th of the total dialogue of everyone on screen?  Again?

Edited May 23, 2019 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

Bran did not have the 'best story' BY FAR in that group, so Tyrion's speech was even lamer and more pointless and obvious Emmy bait.  If anyone, Ayra, who just saved the entire world had the 'better story' and honestly, so did just about everyone up there except Edmure.

If Bran's "story" was so damn good, why was he not even in a whole season, and why don't we know very much of it, why didn't we get to warg with him, instead of just watching his eyes go white? 

I have no problem with the bones of this story, but no, they didn't earn it, and though I am happy with it as an ending for the excruciatingly detailed reasons GRRM will provide if he ever finishes it?  When I've said I "liked it" in any threads, I should have always explained that I only mean as a book end, certainly not a show ending.

As a TV show?  The whole season completely blew, and the finale really was a complete mess.  So many unanswered questions.  So much silently walking around.  So much bullshit that made no sense whatsoever, including that ANYONE would even be listening to Tyrion at his "trial" about all of their futures. 

No, bud, they would decide to kill, pardon, or send you to the wall.  Even then?  With loyal Dothraki and Unsullied still hanging around?  How are you even alive?  Please...

There is no chance Dorne or the Iron Islands wouldn't secede with or before Sansa.   Absolutely none.  That is simply ridiculous.

Not making it clear whether Jon was already bagging the whole "wall" thing and just leaving with the Wild Folk?  More bullshit.  Some think he was, some think he was "escorting them" but they don't need a flipping escort to go "home." !

Meanwhile, if Jon has deserted, that means sex sometime, which probably means a baby sometime, which means there WILL still be a "legitimate heir" to the throne at some point.  Which?  BRAN would know, and that leads us into a whole other quagmire.

So basically?  Shame on them.  Ending with a whore joke?  Please.

We don't even know what the ever changing numbers of Dothraki are doing now, and sending the Unsullied off to all die by butterflies is ... odd.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Umbelina

[Shanna Marie]

On 5/21/2019 at 7:22 PM, RealityCreator said:

But at the end it didn't really matter if Varys' messages got out because Sam also knew (forgot to include him in my previous post), *and* he had proof - and he said nothing at the council.  Maddening.  We could have had basically the same ending even if Jon hadn't been a Targaryen. 

I think in some sense that was kind of the point. The overall theme seems to be about questioning the divine right of kings -- is there really such a thing as a "rightful" ruler? With both Dany and Jon the story undermined the usual fantasy tropes about finding the long-lost rightful heir to the throne who will come in and save the day. Dany spent much of her life thinking the throne was rightfully hers and that it gave her a great destiny, but it ended up turning her into a megalomaniac. Jon turned out to be the long-lost hidden heir and it made little difference in his life. Even without anyone knowing that, he was able to be a leader when it mattered. His one true act as "rightful king" was to kill Dany. I'm not sure he'd have done that if his heritage hadn't given him the authority, if he'd just been Ned Stark's bastard. He didn't want to sit on the throne, but he knew he had the responsibility to do what had to be done for the good of the realm.

It's a rather American approach to epic fantasy, rejecting the idea that anyone has any kind of gods-given right to rule and suggesting that maybe leaders should be chosen on merit. True democracy would have been a stretch for that society, but they made the first steps.

[Zuleikha]

We don't even know what the ever changing numbers of Dothraki are doing now, and sending the Unsullied off to all die by butterflies is ... odd.

From the show's perspective, I don't think they sent them off to die by butterflies.  Naath and butterfly fever is book canon only. 

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

From the show's perspective, I don't think they sent them off to die by butterflies.  Naath and butterfly fever is book canon only. 

I don't recall TV Missandei ever mentioning Butterfly Fever to anyone. You think she would have told Grey Worm about it when they were talking about their future earlier in the season.

So I think it's safe to conclude TV Naath has no butterfly disease.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, but this is the book thread, and Naarth does have killer butterflies.  It's possible she didn't even know that, how young was she when she was taken?

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, but this is the book thread, and Naarth does have killer butterflies.  It's possible she didn't even know that, how young was she when she was taken?

The unsullied will take the name of ‘butterfly’. 

That would have been clever. 

Another ambiguous ending. 

[Affogato]

On 5/21/2019 at 9:17 PM, Raachel2008 said:

Please, the lands beyond the Wall ARE the Free Folk home. They don't need anyone escorting them. Jon was totally joining them  

But he would need to know what is beyond the wall in the aftermath. Perhaps the wildings came to meet him because there is something he should see. 

And Jon is all about duty. And the world does need a place for criminals and unwanted sons like Sam. 

So, perhaps you are correct. He will certainly have a respite before people are sent to the wall, if they are. Bran will know. Weirwood net. 

[Affogato]

On 5/20/2019 at 1:13 PM, galaxygirl76 said:

So I take it that Tyrion is now lord of Casterly Rock? 

I’m sure he has a relative acting as a castellan  

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, but this is the book thread, and Naarth does have killer butterflies. It's possible she didn't even know that , how young was she when she was taken?

If the disease were applicable to the show, this would be the only explanation. Nothing about Missandei makes me believe she would knowingly invite Grey Worm to his death. 

[benteen]

Quite frankly, I don't know why they even need a king anymore.  They should just go back to what they had before Aegon.  Seven (or eight) kingdoms that rule each other in their own right.  With an agreement to work together to rebuild, trade, maintain the Kingsroad, etc.

Edited May 24, 2019 by benteen

[WatchrTina]

12 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

We could have had basically the same ending even if Jon hadn't been a Targaryen. 

Actually I'm quoting RealityCreator above (quoting quotes within posts makes the system go wonky) and I have to disagree with this statement.  If Jon had not been a Targaryen and the rightful heir, then Dany might not have gone completely crazy.  If Jon had continued to be able to love her, not just as a Queen but has HIS beloved, then maybe, just maybe, she might have held it together at the end -- even in the face of the loss of two dragons, most of her troops, Ser Jorah and Missandei.  If Jon had not been the rightful heir, Varys would not have betrayed Dany for the simple reason that there was no other alternative to her.  If Dany had not burned the city, Tyrion would not have abandoned her (though she still might have imprisoned him when she learned he freed his brother.) So yeah, I think the reveal to Dany that -- after all she had been through -- she was NOT the rightful heir to the iron throne, I assume THAT was the last straw that pushed her over the edge into Mad-Queen-Burn-Them-All territory.

Edited May 24, 2019 by WatchrTina

[benteen]

I still think you could have told the same story without the Jon Targaryen reveal.  It was entirely underwhelming.

[MrsR]

It reflects on Ned who kept the secret. Admit it, it totally made you reflect on Ned and his sense of honor.

It adds a greater sense of drama to the end, Jon was both a threat to Dany's perception of herself and one of the few men who rejected her, because of their familial closeness. 

And it adds a layer of poignancy to Jon, who is now not only a Queenslayer but a kin slayer. He bears both ugly epithets now.

Plus there's that whole Prince Who Was Promised legacy. Rhaegar did eventually make the prophecy come true. Neither his nor Lyanna's death were in vain. Or was there more damage done because of the aftermath of his decision than was worth his actions. Would Dany have become a despot without her life experiences? Chicken or the egg. 

[galaxygirl76]

So if this is roughly the same ending as there may be in the books, then that makes Bran how old when he gets the throne? He's seven in his first chapter of Game of Thrones. His potential age bothers me, TER or not. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by galaxygirl76

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, bijoux said:

If the disease were applicable to the show, this would be the only explanation. Nothing about Missandei makes me believe she would knowingly invite Grey Worm to his death. 

5 hours ago, benteen said:

Quite frankly, I don't know why they even need a king anymore.  They should just go back to what they had before Aegon.  Seven (or eight) kingdoms that rule each other in their own right.  With an agreement to work together to rebuild, trade, maintain the Kingsroad, etc.

To the first quote (why are they joined???)

I agree, and it's completely possible she was too young to know that when she was taken.  Greyworm may stop for supplies and be told though, it's well known in the area surrounding Naarth.

2nd:

I was hoping for more of a Commonwealth system as well.

Even though democracy does exist in this world, with the Wildlings and at the wall, that is still a leap too far.  But a commonwealth?  Could have worked.

50 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

So if this is roughly the same ending as there may be in the books, then that makes Bran how old when he gets the throne? He's seven in his first chapter of Game of Thrones. His potential age bothers me, TER or not. 

Who knows?  The books aren't finished, he could be 12 or he could be 76 by the time GRRM finishes.  (IF he does)

Edited May 24, 2019 by Umbelina
quotes merged

[MV713]

On 5/22/2019 at 8:00 PM, RealityCreator said:

Except nothing in the actual show we watched referenced this as a reason at all.  Just like I am creating the ending in my mind that Jon lives out his life marrying a wildling woman and having as many damn babies as he and his wife want to.  But that ending is only occurring in my imagination and did not occur in the actual show.

I am imagining Drogon flying back to him and them going all "how to train your dragon" in the snow 

[Leila6]

On 5/20/2019 at 6:15 PM, stagmania said:

Apparently D&D said in their loathsome little Inside the Episode series that he’s now the Lord Commander again (of what, you might ask). I choose to believe he’s leaving the wall behind and going to live with the freefolk. 

Is there an Inside the Episode for the finale? It’s not available on HBO Now, and I haven’t seen this mentioned anywhere else.

I thought Jon’s look back to the Wall as the gate closed was very clearly a goodbye. He ain’t never coming back. In my head canon, he eventually settles down with a wildling girl (Val?) and has lots of beautiful, fierce little babies because why the hell should he care about the NW vows now? The guy saved all of humanity—repeatedly—and got shipped off to a penal colony. Screw that and screw Westeros. 

I am firmly convinced Bran planned all of it and that Westeros is doomed. Meanwhile, it looks like spring is coming to the far north, which might even return to the temperate paradise it was before the CotF created the WW. I like to imagine Jon in 10-20 years, after Westeros has realized that Bran ain’t exactly benevolent—and, shit, he has superpowers and can live practically forever!—sitting pretty as the King Beyond the Wall, surrounded by true friends and his own family, as the Six Kingdoms live in fear.

It makes as much sense as the ending they did give us, and yet feels far more satisfying than the show’s narrative clusterfuck. 

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, galaxygirl76 said:

So if this is roughly the same ending as there may be in the books, then that makes Bran how old when he gets the throne? He's seven in his first chapter of Game of Thrones. His potential age bothers me, TER or not. 

Joffrey was crowned at 12 or 13. Tommen was 9 or so. Westeros isn't unfamiliar with the concept of child rulers. 

26 minutes ago, Leila6 said:

Is there an Inside the Episode for the finale? It’s not available on HBO Now, and I haven’t seen this mentioned anywhere else. 

I think the two hour documentary on Sunday is in lieu of Inside the Episode and Game Revealed for the finale. 

[Umbelina]

These are the deleted scenes from this episode.

Honestly, WHY did they delete these, which set up Dany's fall so much better? 

Also, according to this, Jon isn't heading out with the Wildlings to leave the Night's Watch, there are other dangers in the North, so he, and in the original scenes, Jorah, are going out on a regular scouting party.

Anyway, having Dany begin to doubt Jorah and then Jon's rejection make it more believable to me that Dany would feel completely betrayed and that she needed to "go big or go home" to take over this country, screw alliances, back to fire and blood.

[bijoux]

I don’t know, I get why Jorah died when he did. As outlined in the video, his role was very much fulfilled by Jon and/or Tyrion. I don’t get the reasoning for him taking the black apart from the full circle aspect of it. Jon was sentenced to it for killing Dany, but why would Jorah be?

God knows I like the idea of a more engaging Dragonpit council. Yara certainly should have called bullshit on the North gaining independece and the Iron Islands not. And I’m for the idea of other Dany supporters speaking up. It certainly explains Jon’s sentence better than Tyrion just presenting it to him. One thing I’m not so sold on is Gendry being that adamant. I just imagine him as being more conflicted, there’s the loyalty he feels to Dany on one hand, but then, he also went to the far North with Jon and they are at least friendly, and he sees the ashen remains of the place he grew up in. Still, giving him any lines would have been preferable to him just being a seat warmer.

[FemmyV]

On 5/24/2019 at 2:15 PM, Leila6 said:

I thought Jon’s look back to the Wall as the gate closed was very clearly a goodbye. He ain’t never coming back. In my head canon, he eventually settles down with a wildling girl (Val?) and has lots of beautiful, fierce little babies because why the hell should he care about the NW vows now? The guy saved all of humanity—repeatedly—and got shipped off to a penal colony. Screw that and screw Westeros.

100%.

Sansa: “can you forgive me?” she asks and although Jon responds that the North was saved, as a result of her betrayal, he doesn't exactly answer her question.

Arya's response, as he's going off into exile and entreats her to visit him at Castle Black, is to blow him off, for life.

And Bran, the only ruler in the whole show that _anyone_ is shown literally bending the knee to, and it just happens to be the guy who saved everyone's ass, first by allying with Dany and then by killing her when she became an inconvenience for everyone.

None of them had the brass to stand up for him against Grey Worm and the Dothraki (who should have accepted him as Khal, anyway) for his sake?

Fuck 'em. It will be interesting to see how many of the Stark kids, at the end of the novels - if George decides to finish - will still have connections to their Dire Wolves, or if Jon, the Targaryen, is the only one.

Another interesting beginning/end mirror in that at the beginning of the story, Jon is an outsider to the main Stark family, with some exceptions. And so he is, in the end but with even less connection to the surviving family.

I really hope GRRM can finish the books in a way that the Starks don't finish off like the self-serving assholes they do, in the show. (Which portrays them as nice people and doesn't dwell on them doing not very nice things.)

21 hours ago, Umbelina said:

These are the deleted scenes from this episode.

Honestly, WHY did they delete these, which set up Dany's fall so much better? 

Also, according to this, Jon isn't heading out with the Wildlings to leave the Night's Watch, there are other dangers in the North, so he, and in the original scenes, Jorah, are going out on a regular scouting party.

Anyway, having Dany begin to doubt Jorah and then Jon's rejection make it more believable to me that Dany would feel completely betrayed and that she needed to "go big or go home" to take over this country, screw alliances, back to fire and blood.

Jorah beginning to doubt Dany in episode 4 is still a hell of a fast turnaround.

Edited May 26, 2019 by FemmyV

[bijoux]

14 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

None of them had the brass to stand up for him against Grey Worm and the Dothraki (who should have accepted him as Khal, anyway) for his sake?

Why should they have accepted him as Khal? 

14 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Jorah beginning to doubt Dany in episode 4 is still a hell of a fast turnaround.

Agreed. Especially after them fighting the dead side by side. 

[MarySNJ]

22 hours ago, Umbelina said:

These are the deleted scenes from this episode.

Honestly, WHY did they delete these, which set up Dany's fall so much better? 

Also, according to this, Jon isn't heading out with the Wildlings to leave the Night's Watch, there are other dangers in the North, so he, and in the original scenes, Jorah, are going out on a regular scouting party.

Anyway, having Dany begin to doubt Jorah and then Jon's rejection make it more believable to me that Dany would feel completely betrayed and that she needed to "go big or go home" to take over this country, screw alliances, back to fire and blood.

As much as I would have been poetic to see Jorah follow in his father’s footsteps to the Nights Watch, I think the idea that Jorah would have doubts about his Khaleesi and actively conspire against her would just add one more hard-to-swallow turn to the too-rushed resolution of this season. They would have needed to set up something earlier, maybe after the burning of the Tarleys in season 7 to get him to that point by 804. I think they made the right choice to have him die defending Dany, because that increases Dany’s sense of loss and removes his tempering  influence at a time when she badly needs it. Plus, if he had survived it gives Jon and Jorah basically the same character arcs and the show runners already reduced Jon to a pathetic yes-man for most of the season as it was. 

I honestly can’t buy Gendry being so anti-Jon in the council. So Dany gave him his title and lands, but it’s not like King Bran isn’t going to honor that claim and Gendry wasn’t in King Landing to see the carnage. I’m glad they didn’t use that alternative scene. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by MarySNJ

[bijoux]

9 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Gendry wasn’t in King Landing to see the carnage. 

I was telling myself he was there, only off screen. Because it doesn't make one bit of sense to me that he wouldn't be after Dany legitimized him. He would feel grateful and obligated, and she would naturally expect it of him. Like, where else was he even supposed to go at that time? Pick out the new drapes and throw rugs for Storm's End?

Of course, I based this on the assumption the show didn' t see the point in paying Joe Dempsie just to swing his hammer around. Then he was brought in to 806 to mutely sit on a chair, so I don't know what to think anymore. Swinging a hammer seems like an upgrade. 

[SeanC]

13 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I honestly can’t buy Gendry being so anti-Jon in the council. So Dany gave him his title and lands, but it’s not like King Bran isn’t going to honor that claim and Gendry wasn’t in King Landing to see the carnage. I’m glad they didn’t use that alternative scene. 

That would have been enormous character assassination, considering Gendry grew up as a commoner in KL, among the people Daenerys had just incinerated.

I'm not clear what the source for the information in this video is meant to be.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Fuck 'em. It will be interesting to see how many of the Stark kids, at the end of the novels - if George decides to finish - will still have connections to their Dire Wolves, or if Jon, the Targaryen, is the only one.

The wolves will be important in the books, as will the fact that all Stark kids can warg.  I'd bet my car on that.  Dragon mythology is not the be all and end all in the books.  I think the Stark endings are the book endings, without of course, the depth and trials of them getting there, AND of course, much more explanations about Bran.

The wolves, the entire WINTER story, the many religions including the Red Goddess and Caitlyn Stark...the old Gods, the new Gods, the people rising as best they can in all of Westeros...all of it will matter in the books.

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Jorah beginning to doubt Dany in episode 4 is still a hell of a fast turnaround.

Listen to the way they do it though, it's more Dany jealousy and insecurity based on very believable things more than Jorah doubting her.  At that party of celebration, after thanking Dany, they all retreat to the groups of their "home" and celebrate, and Bear Island is without a leader now.  She feels left out.

Jorah would just have moments of doubting, which frankly, would just give him a brain.  It would build slowly instead of being the "shock" crap we got that made Dany look bizarre.

It would have been far less jarring that, "Jon didn't kiss me, the bells annoy me, burn them all alive!"

That slow realization that she is not wanted, not worshipped, her council sucks (because of all the stupid pills the writers made everyone eat to speed this shit up to warp speed levels) for shock value.

Also, with Jorah there, we would have also realized Jon wasn't joining the Wildlings, he really meant to keep all of his vows, member of the Night's Watch forever more, no children, etc.  WHICH?  Is pretty important because if Jon did have a kid, that kid would be lawful heir.

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

I honestly can’t buy Gendry being so anti-Jon in the council. So Dany gave him his title and lands, but it’s not like King Bran isn’t going to honor that claim and Gendry wasn’t in King Landing to see the carnage. I’m glad they didn’t use that alternative scene. 

I can, they way it's described, he feels strong loyalty to Dany for giving him a name, for legitimizing him, for all she's done for Westeros.

Having a council where only Tyrion blathers on and on and everyone mutely agrees?  Was bullshit.  Gendry and Yara are the logical objectors.

It was unbelievable and boring, as well as obvious Emmy bait.

22 hours ago, bijoux said:

I don’t know, I get why Jorah died when he did. As outlined in the video, his role was very much fulfilled by Jon and/or Tyrion. I don’t get the reasoning for him taking the black apart from the full circle aspect of it. Jon was sentenced to it for killing Dany, but why would Jorah be?

God knows I like the idea of a more engaging Dragonpit council. Yara certainly should have called bullshit on the North gaining independece and the Iron Islands not. And I’m for the idea of other Dany supporters speaking up. It certainly explains Jon’s sentence better than Tyrion just presenting it to him. One thing I’m not so sold on is Gendry being that adamant. I just imagine him as being more conflicted, there’s the loyalty he feels to Dany on one hand, but then, he also went to the far North with Jon and they are at least friendly, and he sees the ashen remains of the place he grew up in. Still, giving him any lines would have been preferable to him just being a seat warmer.

Yeah, I agree, it's still not perfect, I just think it's a hell of a lot better than what we got.

52 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That would have been enormous character assassination, considering Gendry grew up as a commoner in KL, among the people Daenerys had just incinerated.

I'm not clear what the source for the information in this video is meant to be.

Me either, but he certainly seems to know!  I hope they put all the deleted stuff up somewhere, or if anyone gets any more information about where this comes from? 

Please post it!

Edited May 26, 2019 by Umbelina

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

I was telling myself he was there, only off screen. Because it doesn't make one bit of sense to me that he wouldn't be after Dany legitimized him. He would feel grateful and obligated, and she would naturally expect it of him. Like, where else was he even supposed to go at that time? Pick out the new drapes and throw rugs for Storm's End?

Of course, I based this on the assumption the show didn' t see the point in paying Joe Dempsie just to swing his hammer around. Then he was brought in to 806 to mutely sit on a chair, so I don't know what to think anymore. Swinging a hammer seems like an upgrade. 

Oh, I would imagine that Lord Gendry Baratheon of Storms End would head to his family castle to find out what’s there, and how he’s going to convince anyone who owes fealty to the Lord of Storms End will feel about Robert’s no-longer bastard being their liege Lord.

I don’t think his first priority would be to his former Flea Bottom denizens when he had a whole kingdom to lord over. From there, it’s a short trip to Kings Landing, after all the damage has been done and the clean up begun and wouldn’t have actually even seen what Daenerys did to the smallfolk there. 

Also, I would have assumed that Lord Gendry or whoever was castellan of Storms End would have received one of Varys’ dispatches that Jon is actual Aegon Targaryen the true heir to the Seven Kingdoms, and that complicated Daenerys’ position. Jon would not have had any problem with Gendry being Lord of Storms End. And I never saw any animosity between Jon and Gendry when they went ranging beyond the Wall. 

I like Gendry and really would have hated him turning against Jon in that way. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by MarySNJ

[GraceK]

4 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

honestly can’t buy Gendry being so anti-Jon in the council. So Dany gave him his title and lands, but it’s not like King Bran isn’t going to honor that claim and Gendry wasn’t in King Landing to see the carnage. I’m glad they didn’t use that alternative scene. 

I can buy it. What has Jon ever done for him? He barely knows the guy. He went on one mission with him beyond the wall. It’s Arya he’s close too really, and Davos. And Arya rejected him. Dany has done nothing but show him kindness , restore his name, give him a castle and also help defeat the NK.  And now it turns out that Jon’s father wasn’t his best friends dad after all. 

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

That would have been enormous character assassination, considering Gendry grew up as a commoner in KL, among the people Daenerys had just incinerated.

Not really. The Lannister’s tried to murder him, murdered his father, and chased him out of Kings landing. He described his childhood as a shitshow, growing up poor. When has he been a champion of the people? He defended Arya, but he was thrilled to be made Lord of Storms end. It makes perfect sense he would loyal to the person who acknowledged his bravery and rewarded him, and also, the Baratheons and Targaryens are also related by blood as well. Daenerys is his kin, even though it was never mentioned. It would have been nice to have someone else speak up for her.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Jorah would just have moments of doubting, which frankly, would just give him a brain. 

I happy we never saw this. It doesn’t make sense show wise. Jorah would never betray her again. That would be character assassination. Show Jorah is the definition of loyalty and love to Daenarys. Nothing she did would ever make him turn on her again . He would NEVER pick Jon over her, and if Jon killed her? He would rip out Jon’s heart . No matter what she did . That’s why they had him die, even David and Dan knew the audience wouldn’t suspend disbelief that much.  Iain Glen himself even said he preferred his ending . Dying for Daenarys , protecting her, is the perfect bookend to his show character.

Edited May 26, 2019 by GraceK

[rmontro]

On 5/24/2019 at 8:25 AM, benteen said:

Quite frankly, I don't know why they even need a king anymore.  They should just go back to what they had before Aegon.  Seven (or eight) kingdoms that rule each other in their own right.  With an agreement to work together to rebuild, trade, maintain the Kingsroad, etc.

Yeah, if they had to kill Daenerys, they might as well make it worth something.  Why is it only the oh-so-special Starks get to be independent?  It would make for a more complete ending by abolishing the king's rule altogether.  Of course then Tyrion couldn't have been given his "punishment" of being Hand of the King.

I liked the Starks in the beginning, mind you.  But the way this ending was put together made me resent them, because the story made them so that they could do no wrong.  Bran was made king of Westeros, Sansa was made queen in the north, and Arya went from super assassin to killer of the Night King to being the show's conscious and witness to the smallfolk's sufferings.  As if anyone had ever given two sh!ts about them before now.

Jon was okay, but even he became savior of the universe - killing Adolf Dany by using his powers of super sexiness to get close enough to put the knife in.

Edited May 27, 2019 by rmontro

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Oh, I would imagine that Lord Gendry Baratheon of Storms End would head to his family castle to find out what’s there, and how he’s going to convince anyone who owes fealty to the Lord of Storms End will feel about Robert’s no-longer bastard being their liege Lord.

I don’t think his first priority would be to his former Flea Bottom denizens when he had a whole kingdom to lord over. From there, it’s a short trip to Kings Landing, after all the damage has been done and the clean up begun and wouldn’t have actually even seen what Daenerys did to the smallfolk there. 

Also, I would have assumed that Lord Gendry or whoever was castellan of Storms End would have received one of Varys’ dispatches that Jon is actual Aegon Targaryen the true heir to the Seven Kingdoms, and that complicated Daenerys’ position. Jon would not have had any problem with Gendry being Lord of Storms End. And I never saw any animosity between Jon and Gendry when they went ranging beyond the Wall. 

I like Gendry and really would have hated him turning against Jon in that way. 

Dany insisted on the North marching on King’s Landing with her because she helped defend them, i.e. part of the realm she planned to rule. I really don’t see why Gendry, an able bodied, capable and unharmed young dude, whose circumstances she had just improved greatly, would be excused and allowed to bow out before this fight. The time to go to Storm’s End would be after taking King’s Landing when Dany was the actual queen. Before that, that was still Cersei, and I imagine taking charge would be challenging enouh for Gendry even when recognized by the acting ruler, I can’t imagine him doing it while Cersei still held the South. 

[Umbelina]

11 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Fuck 'em. It will be interesting to see how many of the Stark kids, at the end of the novels - if George decides to finish - will still have connections to their Dire Wolves, or if Jon, the Targaryen, is the only one.

The wolves will be important in the books, as will the fact that all Stark kids can warg.  I'd bet my car on that.  Dragon mythology is not the be all and end all in the books. 

The wolves, the entire WINTER story, the many religions including the Red Goddess and Caitlyn Stark...the old Gods, the new Gods, the people rising as best they can in all of Westeros...all of it will matter in the books.

11 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Jorah beginning to doubt Dany in episode 4 is still a hell of a fast turnaround.

Listen to the way they do it though, it's more Dany jealousy and insecurity based on very believable things more than Jorah doubting her.  At that party of celebration, after thanking Dany, they all retreat to the groups of their "home" and celebrate, and Bear Island is without a leader now.  She feels left out.

Jorah would just have moments of doubting, which frankly, would just give him a brain.

It would have been far less jarring that, "Jon didn't kiss me, the bells annoy me, burn them all alive!"

That slow realization that she is not wanted, not worshipped, her council sucks (because of all the stupid pills the writers made everyone eat to speed this shit up to warp speed levels) for shock value.

Also, with Jorah there, we would have also realized Jon wasn't joining the Wildlings, he really meant to keep all of his vows, member of the Night's Watch forever more, no children, etc.  WHICH?  Is pretty important because if Jon did have a kid, that kid would be lawful heir.

10 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I honestly can’t buy Gendry being so anti-Jon in the council. So Dany gave him his title and lands, but it’s not like King Bran isn’t going to honor that claim and Gendry wasn’t in King Landing to see the carnage. I’m glad they didn’t use that alternative scene. 

I can, they way it's described, he feels strong loyalty to Dany for giving him a name, for legitimizing him, for all she's done for Westeros.

Having a council where only Tyrion blathers on and on and everyone mutely agrees?  Was bullshit.  Gendry and Yara are the logical objectors.

It was unbelievable and boring, as well as obvious Emmy bait.

On 5/25/2019 at 1:50 PM, bijoux said:

I don’t know, I get why Jorah died when he did. As outlined in the video, his role was very much fulfilled by Jon and/or Tyrion. I don’t get the reasoning for him taking the black apart from the full circle aspect of it. Jon was sentenced to it for killing Dany, but why would Jorah be?

God knows I like the idea of a more engaging Dragonpit council. Yara certainly should have called bullshit on the North gaining independece and the Iron Islands not. And I’m for the idea of other Dany supporters speaking up. It certainly explains Jon’s sentence better than Tyrion just presenting it to him. One thing I’m not so sold on is Gendry being that adamant. I just imagine him as being more conflicted, there’s the loyalty he feels to Dany on one hand, but then, he also went to the far North with Jon and they are at least friendly, and he sees the ashen remains of the place he grew up in. Still, giving him any lines would have been preferable to him just being a seat warmer.

Yeah, I agree, it's still not perfect, I just think it's a hell of a lot better than what we got.

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

That would have been enormous character assassination, considering Gendry grew up as a commoner in KL, among the people Daenerys had just incinerated.

I'm not clear what the source for the information in this video is meant to be.

Me either, but he certainly seems to know!  I hope they put all the deleted stuff up somewhere, or if anyone gets any more information about where this comes from? 

Please post it!

--

I don't think Jorah would betray a sane Dany.  a mass murderer intent on doing it all over the country and then the world?

He isn't obligated to keep a vow to that.

[Nashville]

16 hours ago, bijoux said:

Why should they have accepted [Jon] as Khal? 

Because among the Dothraki, deposing the previous Khal (or Khaleesi in this case) has always been grounds for claiming the Khal title before.

[WatchrTina]

17 hours ago, bijoux said:

I really don’t see why Gendry, an able bodied, capable and unharmed young dude, whose circumstances she had just improved greatly, would be excused and allowed to bow out before this fight. The time to go to Storm’s End would be after taking King’s Landing

Yup, I also think it is a shame we did not get a chance to see Gendry fighting alongside the Northern men at the battle at Kings Landing but I feel certain he was there.  I can understand that they just did not have time to show his fight scenes, nor to delve into the very mixed emotions he might be feeling after the murder of the Queen who had elevated him to Lordship -- murder at the hands of Jon Snow, one of the band of brothers with whom he went on a deadly mission north of the wall.

That reminds me -- don't you wonder what Gendry thought when he saw the Red Woman ride up to Winterfell just before that battle?  Poor Gendry -- he keeps having all these big, dramatic moments --  off-camera.

Edited May 27, 2019 by WatchrTina

[bijoux]

9 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

That reminds me -- don't you wonder what Gendry thought when he saw the Red Woman ride up to Winterfell just before that battle?  Poor Gendry -- he keeps having all these big, dramatic moments --  off-camera.

True. At least he got to have a reaction to Beric and Thoros last season. No more of that for you, Gendry.

[rmontro]

On 5/25/2019 at 4:50 PM, bijoux said:

Yara certainly should have called bullshit on the North gaining independece and the Iron Islands not. 

And how the frick are all the kingdoms okay with the North being the only one to gain independence, while simultaneously having a Northman set up as king to rule the rest of them?  That makes NO sense.  

[benteen]

If Gendry had learned what Dany did to the people of King's Landing, including Flea Bottom where he grew up I have absolutely no doubt that he would have turned against her.  Also, Jon is Arya's brother so I think that would play into things.

What's Jon defending the North from?  The Ice Spiders that we never saw?  I'd prefer Jon travel the North to explore and then settle down with Val as mentioned.

Edited May 28, 2019 by benteen

[PatsyandEddie]

Gendry is part Targ through his father, Robert whose grandmother was part-Targ. If that makes him kin of Dany, it also makes him kin to Jon, through Rhaegar. Ned may not have been Jon’s biological father but he was his father in all other respects so to me anyway, Jon and Gendry’s fathers were friends. Robert was a sperm donor for Gendry and had no knowledge of him. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by PatsyandEddie

[benteen]

I wish the show would have brought up that Gendry was part-Targ but they never did.  And you're right...I actually hadn't thought about the fact that he's kin with Jon as well.

[RobertDeSneero]

17 hours ago, rmontro said:

And how the frick are all the kingdoms okay with the North being the only one to gain independence, while simultaneously having a Northman set up as king to rule the rest of them?  That makes NO sense.  

They probably would have been okay with Jon Snow, a Northman, even without knowing of his heritage.  It's at least plausible that Jon would have designated Bran as his heir.

The North was already independent.  They didn't gain their independence.  They chose not to rejoin the Seven Kingdoms.  The other kingdoms never left.

[Nashville]

21 hours ago, benteen said:

I wish the show would have brought up that Gendry was part-Targ but they never did.  

Why?  Half the cast were tying themselves in knots over the fact that Jon was part Targaryen, but in the end it didn’t mean jack shit.

[PatsyandEddie]

I disagree that it meant jackshit. It was enough to give Jon a shot of anti-AuntieFucker juice which in turn pushed Dany over the edge. She was angered/saddened at his distaste for a physical relationship with her even if he was in love with her. She also knew that he had a better claim which added to her insecurities. 

I don’t think that any of Varys’ scrolls made it out. Only the Stark Family and Tyrion are aware and they won’t tell to keep Jon safe. He may be far ,far North but he is alive and free from the political games he hated. 

[benteen]

Dany scorch earthing King's Landing should have been enough for Jon to reject her.  Jon's always had Ned's sense of honor.  Him trying to excuse Dany's actions in this episode did him a disservice.

[PatsyandEddie]

Perhaps it did but I think he was simply in denial and thought he could persuade her otherwise. As soon as she said that only she would choose, he knew the path she was on and that he had to kill her. An awful choice. 

[rmontro]

16 hours ago, Nashville said:

Why?  Half the cast were tying themselves in knots over the fact that Jon was part Targaryen, but in the end it didn’t mean jack shit.

Yeah, if that was such a big deal, why weren't people clamoring for Jon to be king after he killed Daenerys?  I mean while she was still alive, there was supposed to be this big movement gathering.  Including Sansa.  I guess when she sniffed that she might get some power for herself, she sent Jon down the river. 

When there's this powerful woman with dragons, everyone wants to switch allegiances to Jon.  But when there's only Grey Worm and his armies to contend with, suddenly they cower?

One of the big problems with this ending is that it doesn't give anyone what they wanted.  No one is satisfied.  Who was clamoring for Bran to be king?  Dany fans didn't want to see her turn evil.  Jon Snow fans wanted his story to go somewhere.  There's no real payoff here.

Edited May 30, 2019 by rmontro

[FemmyV]

On 5/23/2019 at 1:39 PM, ShellsandCheese said:

I believe it was Little Dany Stalin. Or according to the showrunners Little Dany Lawerence of Arabia. 🙂

Fine, then, let her die in a fall off of Drogon.

[sistermagpie]

On 5/29/2019 at 8:12 PM, rmontro said:

Yeah, if that was such a big deal, why weren't people clamoring for Jon to be king after he killed Daenerys?  I mean while she was still alive, there was supposed to be this big movement gathering.  Including Sansa.  I guess when she sniffed that she might get some power for herself, she sent Jon down the river. 

Sansa's intentions were pretty explicit. She was trying to get independence for the North and she got that. She wasn't trying to get more power for herself personally beyond that.

Which wasn't that different from anybody else who was conspiring against Dany. They were nervous about her and were looking around for a backup they trusted more. Since they're not afraid of Bran and he didn't conquer them by force, they're fine with him.

[rmontro]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Which wasn't that different from anybody else who was conspiring against Dany. They were nervous about her and were looking around for a backup they trusted more. 

I was questioning why she dropped her support of Jon so suddenly.  Yes, Grey Worm was there to stand in his way, but Grey Worm was there to stand in hes way before, along with Dany and a dragon.  When Dany was alive, she (among others) were pushing for Jon to be king. 

Why stop supporting him after Jon killed her?  You can't really say Grey Worm because he would have been an obstacle if Dany had been alive too, but they were scheming for him then.

In any case, Sansa completely rubbed me the wrong way this season, and I had always liked her.  Jon had been King in the North, and Jon had bent the knee.  Sansa didn't have to like it, but as Dany said, she needed to respect it.

For that matter, why does Tyrion the prisoner get to set forth the whole future of Westeros.  Grey Worm said "You are not to speak" and Tyrion's all "Yeah, I'll shut up, but blah, blah, blah (gives long speech)".

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, rmontro said:

I was questioning why she dropped her support of Jon so suddenly.  Yes, Grey Worm was there to stand in his way, but Grey Worm was there to stand in hes way before, along with Dany and a dragon.  When Dany was alive, she (among others) were pushing for Jon to be king. 

Right, but they were pushing for Jon to be king because they thought he was a better choice than Dany (suddenly, for some of them). They weren't pushing him because they were totally invested in Jon being king like he was a specific savior, so once he'd killed Dany and there were people demanding he be punished for it they didn't have reason to insist that he had to be king if they had somebody else they were also comfortable with.

11 hours ago, rmontro said:

In any case, Sansa completely rubbed me the wrong way this season, and I had always liked her.  Jon had been King in the North, and Jon had bent the knee.  Sansa didn't have to like it, but as Dany said, she needed to respect it.

Depends on what "respect it" means. She was dealing with it as the reality, not denying that Jon's bending the knee didn't count.

11 hours ago, rmontro said:

For that matter, why does Tyrion the prisoner get to set forth the whole future of Westeros.  Grey Worm said "You are not to speak" and Tyrion's all "Yeah, I'll shut up, but blah, blah, blah (gives long speech)".

That was just hilarious. Somehow at his own trial Tyrion not only gets to decide how to choose his punishment but choose the king as well!