S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

This argument has been going on for years, but if Sansa really wanted to take Joffery's side why didn't she just say he was telling the truth?  That's what she's suppose to do.  Always take the side of her betrothed.  By saying she didn't remember she is in effect saying he is not telling the truth, but I'm not going to say that out loud.  It appears to have worked, because Robert knew the real dead with what was up and took that opportunity to try and deflate the situation as much as possible.  He is even telling everyone that Joffery is lying by telling Ned that he was going to punish Joffery and Ned would punish Arya. 

And you're assuming alot in thinking it would have made everything ok for her to say Joffery was lying.  Like Ned and everyone would have just been able to go back to Winterfell without incident.

That whole court was a sham.  The butcher's boy was already killed no matter what had happened for one thing.  There was no good way out of what was happening.  Only differing tiers of bad.

So what more do you really want from the situation?  Robert admitted already as it was that Joffery was lying.  It didn't change anything.

I don't think Robert admitted he was lying.  IIRC, he berated him for letting a little girl disarm him.  

We will never know for sure what would have happened if Sansa told the truth.  But it clearly demonstrated her lack of courage, moral character and commitment to her family.  I haven't seen a lot of change in that over the next 7 seasons.

[Meredith Quill]

3 minutes ago, Affogato said:

In the US people stay in badly flooding areas during hurricanes because they can’t afford to go anywhere. Many people do not have families or money in reserve or cars/wagons .

Would they stay if they thought a nuke was about to drop? Not the same thing. You need legs to leave, not vehicles. 

3 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Winter is coming. Are they to claim land and start to build a house and plant crops, and many of them not farmers but people who sell wares on the street? How well will that go?And what is to stop them feom sufferring the fate of the Hound’s friends? In the aftermath of the end of the tyrells and other houses the roads are full of bandits. 

If it comes down to a fundamental choice between leaving on foot and possibly surviving vs certain death. I know which choice makes more sense. 

One option has hope, the other doesn't.

[Bryce Lynch]

31 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I mean the alternative is what, a siege. One of those things where food and resources quickly dwindle to nil. Who do you imagine will suffer and die of starvation first in a siege? The smallfolk; the weak, the young, the old. And that's just first. Therefore, a siege isn't the answer either.

You're Dany, Tyrion, Varys, Jon - So what is the answer? How do we remove Cersei from power without any collateral damage?

Cersei likes wine, doesn't she?  Do we know anyone with experience in poisoning wine?  Perhaps her father's former cupbearer.  

[Scaeva]

Just now, SilverStormm said:

This is just semantics. Leave or def die, it's an easy choice - legs are all that's required.

Nope, not yet. Jon hasn't arrived yet, unless you've seen episode 5 already? Dany was there to parley only. If that was a siege force, she's fucked lol.

If you're as poor as the people of Fleabottom, you might also die if you leave.

Let's say Cersei and Daenerys both give the smallfolk of King's Landing free passage. How do they feed themselves in the countryside? They barely eek out a meager existence as is, and now they're homeless war refugees in a crapsack medieval world with no safety net, wandering through barren fields where the majority of the food and fodder has already been taken into King's Landing in preparation for a siege or gathered up by the army besieging it. Starvation is what likely awaits most in that scenario.

In a perfect world there'd be enough food to support them but that's not the world they live in. When Julius Caesar besieged Alesia during his Conquest of Gaul, the defending Gaulish soldiers cast out the civilians who weren't capable of fighting because they were extra mouths to feed, in a city that wouldn't be receiving any more food unless the Romans were defeated. Caesar likewise refused to allow them to pass between his lines, because he had his own army to feed in difficult circumstances. They were essentially caught between two warring armies, left with absolutely nothing to sustain themselves.

That's the sort of reality the people of King's Landing could expect even if they were allowed to leave. Staying put does not make them hardcore Cersei loyalists. They're caught between a rock and a hard place and have no good options, and ultimately are nothing more than pawns in the Game of Thrones. They don't get to choose who rules them.

[Drogo]

Just now, SilverStormm said:

Would they stay if they thought a nuke was about to drop? Not the same thing. You need legs to leave, not vehicles. 

The people of Kings Landing aren't that bright.  They thought the explosion at the Sept of Baelor was a coronation fireworks/laser show.

  <--High Sparrow

[Nashville]

11 hours ago, Drogo said:

Not sure, let me consult WebMD for dragon sexual practices.  Hmm, it doesn't have a lot about dragons, but apparently I have fibromyalgia.

Since dragons are similar to reptiles they may have the ability to reproduce asexually via eggs that require no fertilization.  See: parthenogenesis.

If frogs can do it, I doubt dragons would have much trouble pulling it off - ya know, the whole “magical being” thingie and all...

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I want to laugh at this and love on it at the same time.  😆

Edited May 8, 2019 by Nashville
Correcting fucking autocorrect

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, Scaeva said:

If you're as poor as the people of Fleabottom, you might also die if you leave.

You said the magic word: "MIGHT". Yes they might indeed die if they leave, however, that's infinitely preferable to DEFINITELY dying if they stay. That's my point.

[Scaeva]

9 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

You said the magic word: "MIGHT". Yes they might indeed die if they leave, however, that's infinitely preferable to DEFINITELY dying if they stay. That's my point.

That still doesn't justify Daenerys destroying the city and killing everyone in it. She has other options, more in fact than the people she'd be reducing to ash.

On what basis besides fear does anyone owe Daenerys fealty if she destroys the largest city in Westeros and most of the people within it?

If that's the route she takes all the prattle about breaking wheels was a lie, and she's no different than Cersei, the Mad King, or Ramsay Bolton. She'd be much worse even, based on the butcher's bill. She'd make the atrocities of all three of those people combined look like child's play. Torching King's Landing may even kill more people than the Night's King offed.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Scaeva

[Drogo]

6 minutes ago, Nashville said:

If frogs can do it, I count dragons would have much trouble pulling it off - ya know, the whole “magical being” thingie and all...

Life finds a way!

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Life finds a way!

Qyburn gets sniped by an Unsullied spear and is replaced by Jeff Goldblum

[watchTV]

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Lol I did not even think that was an ambush.  Because, knowing Euron, if this was an ambush he would have pursued them and eliminated the rest of Dany's crew. Either way it was lazy writing.

You're right. He had them running and they had no counter to the "scorpions" / harpoons used against them. I actually wondered why Euron didn't pursue them as they swam to land. They were in no position to fight back.

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Jon conveniently decided not to ride Rhaegal south because, according to Jon "Rhaegal needs to heal. He doesn't need me weighing him down", even though someone else pointed out, in comparison to a dragon, Jon weighs as much as "two fleas fucking".

So you could argue Jon's decision not to ride Rhaegal south is plot armor

Yeah, the dragon needed to rest but not the men. I keep seeing all these holes and it's disappointing.

[TaurusRose]

5 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany's claim is not illegitimate, as far as she knew she was the last remaining Targaryen. Her father was dead, her brothers were dead and she thought all her brothers children were dead. That made her claim legitimate. Jon being a Targ doesn't delegitimize her claim it just puts her second in line. Jon when he found told her he doesn't want the thrown. So he can abdicate the crown, once again making her the heir. 

Dany just knows from the way the North treats her that if they found out about Jon they would want him because he's a northerner. So if he truly doesn't want to be King the best way for that to happen is to not tell anyone. Dany should not even have to tell him, he should've known what would happen. But he's Jon Snow and he knows nothing. 

Correction. Dany knows that Westeros will support Jon. He is a native. He has ties. He knows how they work. One of the main concerns the Westerosi have is that Daenerys is “a foreigner.” She was told by Jorah that would be the case before she even left Essos. Jon knows you don’t keep secrets from your family. So he didn’t. Dany (as much as I love her) doesn’t get to tell someone to deny who they are.

[paigow]

12 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

That still doesn't justify Daenerys destroying the city and killing everyone in it. She has other options, more in fact than the people she'd be reducing to ash.

On what basis besides fear does anyone owe Daenerys fealty if she destroys the largest city in Westeros and most of the people within it?

What options are left? Destabilization via economic sanctions is impossible. Negotiation is a head dead issue... "The time to hesitate is through" 🎹

[Drogo]

Just now, Scaeva said:

On what basis besides fear does anyone owe Daenerys fealty if she destroys the largest city in Westeros and most of the people within it?

The same basis as when Robert Barratheon and his allies sacked the city. 

"I was in King's Landing after the sack, Khaleesi. Do you know what I saw? Butchery. Babies, children, old men. More women raped than you can count."  -Ser Jorah 

Except she will take what is hers by fire and blood, and avoid the unnecessary murder and rape of innocents.  We can safely assume Cersei is not allowing these poor people into her castle; she's going to leave them in the areas and courtyards inside the Capitol walls.  So... targeted attack on the fancypants royal-residential portion of the castle, it is.

[Couver]

Anyone hoping to over throw Cersei will result in dead common folk. There is no way around that. She''s been given numerous chances to surrender peacefully and has rejected them all.

Should the Starks not have taken back Winterfell either since innocent people likely died in the battle to take it back?

Edited May 7, 2019 by Couver

[Andromeda]

8 hours ago, BooBear said:

For me what annoyed me... where were the women? Girls ?  Even when Cersie came out a young Sansa couldn't help but go see her in person. Yet here not one girl / woman comes up to say how blown away they were. Or even feel bad for her that she is sitting all alone. Yet in the same episode I am to believe that women are throwing themselves at the Hound? The HOUND?

Please! I keep hearing on so many behind the scenes that Dany sees here that no one in the north will ever give her any credit or like her- only Jon. First, that does not jive with how people really are and if there is one thing this show has always done it is shine a light on real people and second, if that was truly true, if I were Dany I would take my troops back to Essos and make Essos more powerful than the 7 kingdoms. The north can suffer under Cersie. 

But it is unbelievable to me that no one in the north would see value in Dany. That is a sexist plot necessary to turn Dany "mad" I resent it. 

Exactly. The men wouldn't need to hit on her, but we're to believe men or women aren't even interested in talking to her?! There are these unique things she knows all about, called dragons...which everyone previously thought were mythical. And they want us to think people have no interest in where they came from, how she handles them, and whether she's offering free rides? 

[Andromeda]

5 hours ago, Drogo said:

I just came across this and was reminded that Grey Worm is going to fuck. shit. up.

Old boy will probably hightail it to Old Valyria looking for a cache of dragon eggs.

Does his anger and desire for revenge means he's insane, like they're trying to paint Dany? Or is the fact he's a man mean his rage is to be expected? Just not sure of the rules here in this universe...

[Meredith Quill]

19 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

That still doesn't justify Daenerys destroying the city and killing everyone in it. She has other options, more in fact than the people she'd be reducing to ash.

On what basis besides fear does anyone owe Daenerys fealty if she destroys the largest city in Westeros and most of the people within it?

If that's the route she takes all the prattle about breaking wheels was a lie, and she's no different than Cersei, the Mad King, or Ramsay Bolton. She'd be much worse even, based on the butcher's bill. She'd make the atrocities of all three of those people combined look like child's play. Torching King's Landing may even kill more people than the Night's King offed.

And my point is people need to take responsibility for their own choices, if you choose to stay in this situation then you face the consequences. Is it bad optics? Sure. But that doesn't make her a tyrant or mad, it makes her formidable and yes, someone to be feared but what absolute ruler/monarch wasn't feared to varying extents?? It's the nature of the beast and of the comparable era this story is set in. You don't have to like it but you should accept it as the way it was.

Olenna told her "If they don't fear you they'll never respect you" - she wasn't wrong.

Also, to quote Jaime of Cersei "When the people are living in the peace she has created, do you think they'll care how she created it?" The implication being that once peace is achieved the population don't GAF about anything beyond, "Thank fuck that's over. What's for dinner?".

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, enoughcats said:

There was lots of hostage taking in GoT.  Much more than in Europe (when royal houses exchanged children as hostages, but not to be threatened with death.)  Did any hostage taking in GoT ever work the way it was planned? 

Maybe you could count Edmure and his infant son.  Jaime's threat got him to yield Riverrun.  

Tyrion being held by Catelyn briefly saved Ned's life.

Jaime being held hostage might have saved Sansa's life.  I'm not sure if Tyrion would have sent The Hound to save Sansa from the gang of rapists, if he wasn't worried about what would happen to Jaime, though it is possible he would have done it out of his own decency.  

I would say Theon being a ward of the Starks might have prevented Greyjoy uprisings.  But seeing how his father greeted him when he returned, I'm guessing his fear of the Starks was what motivated him, not love for his son.   

[Scaeva]

7 minutes ago, Couver said:

Anyone hoping to over throw Cersei will result in dead common folk. There is no way around that.

Should the Starks not have taken back Winterfell either since innocent people likely died in the battle to take it back?

I don't think anyone is expecting a battle at King's Landing to be devoid of civilian casualties. There is a difference however between collateral damage and intentionally giving the entire city the Dracarys treatment.

Perhaps the show is faking out the viewers, but right now Dany seems poised to order the latter.

4 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

And my point is people need to take responsibility for their own choices, if you choose to stay in this situation then you face the consequences. Is it bad optics? Sure. But that doesn't make her a tyrant or mad, it makes her formidable and yes, someone to be feared but what absolute ruler/monarch wasn't feared to varying extents?? It's the nature of the beast and of the comparable era this story is set in. You don't have to like it but you should accept it as the way it was.

Olenna told her "If they don't fear you they'll never respect you" - she wasn't wrong.

Also, to quote Jaime of Cersei "When the people are living in the peace she has created, do you think they'll care how she created it?" The implication being that once peace is achieved the population don't GAF about anything beyond, "Thank fuck that's over. What's for dinner?".

It absolutely makes her tyrant. She'll have killed more innocent people than Cersei.

Fear alone isn't enough to rule. If it were the Mad King might have died peacefully in his bed.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Scaeva

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, Scaeva said:

I don't think anyone is expecting a battle at King's Landing to be devoid of civilian casualties. There is a difference however between collateral damage and intentionally giving the entire city the Dracarys treatment.

Perhaps the show is faking out the viewers, but right now Dany seems poised to order the latter.

Tbh, I don't expect her to target anything other than the Red Keep - that's where Cersei is herding folks into, for that very reason.

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Does his anger and desire for revenge means he's insane, like they're trying to paint Dany? Or is the fact he's a man mean his rage is to be expected? Just not sure of the rules here in this universe...

I'm not sure it is so much a sexist thing as a Dany being labeled the "Mad Queen" thing.  While not everyone approves of Arya, I don't think people think she is crazy for taking revenge.   I don't think most people had a problem with Sansa feeding Ramsay to his hounds either.

But, every time Dany shows any anger no matter how appropriate, "See, she's the Mad Queen!  I knew it!"  

[Meredith Quill]

3 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

It absolutely makes her tyrant. She'll have killed more innocent people than Cersei.

See my answer re the Red Keep. 

4 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

Fear alone isn't enough to rule. If it were the Mad King might have died peacefully in his bed.

Who said anything about 'fear alone'? It's just one facet.

[Couver]

6 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Does his anger and desire for revenge means he's insane, like they're trying to paint Dany? Or is the fact he's a man mean his rage is to be expected? Just not sure of the rules here in this universe...

Manpain is clearly allowed. Like totally ok to off an annoying kid that took out your murderous gf and plotted to kill you. Not ok to have any emotion about losing yet another 'child' and bff in gruesome and tragic fashion and going after person who is plotting to kill you.

I guess the exception is Arya who is allowed to get revenge etc without being called 'crazy'.

[Scaeva]

Just now, SilverStormm said:

See my answer re the Red Keep. 

Who said anything about 'fear alone'? It's just one facet.

Simply torching the Red Keep would be different. That's a precision strike, not carpet bombing. Varys, Tyrion, ect should be okay with that.

*If* Daenerys destroys the entire city she would be building the foundation of her rule entirely on fear, and that would be a shaky one. The moment she stops inspiring enough of it, she ends up like Caligula.

[Meredith Quill]

Just now, Scaeva said:

Simply torching the Red Keep would be different. That's a precision strike, not carpet bombing. Varys, Tyrion, ect should be okay with that.

*If* Daenerys destroys the entire city she would be building the foundation of her rule entirely on fear, and that would be a shaky one. The moment she stops inspiring enough of it, she ends up like Caligula.

I don't disagree. I anticipate her targeting the Red Keep and the ballistas around the city. If she purposely targeted unarmed civilian areas, even I would be dismayed and shocked.

[ulkis]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

but he really shouldn't have broken Brienne before doing so. 

Brienne isn't broken. Even.if they hadn't slept together, after everything that happened, I'm pretty sure she would have asked him to stay and cried when he left.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Couver said:

Manpain is clearly allowed. Like totally ok to off an annoying kid that took out your murderous gf and plotted to kill you. Not ok to have any emotion about losing yet another 'child' and bff in gruesome and tragic fashion and going after person who is plotting to kill you.

I guess the exception is Arya who is allowed to get revenge etc without being called 'crazy'.

I think most people were fine with Sansa feeding Ramsay to the Hounds.  

The same goes for Brienne executing Stannis.

I was also fine with what Cersei did to Ellaria and Tyene because they deserved it for murdering Cersei's innocent daughter.   Cersei is evil, but I didn't consider that crazy, but righteous anger.  

I think with Dany everyone is looking for signs that she is the "Mad Queen", so she gets labeled crazy for things that wouldn't cause other characters to be labeled that way.  

[Bali]

This has become just a hot mess! And I just had one more thought. If the double Ds are so hot to trot with surprising us. Here's a surprise I could get behind. Bran has another strange vision that makes no sense. This time, He is seeing another really blonde guy making love to a woman. The woman has a baby. Flash to the High Septum being blown up. Flash to a woman standing seared. Flash to now. Margery Tyrell is a Targaryan too! She is also dragon and unburnt and stuff. And this scenario is literally no more forced and out of nowhere that some of the other crap they've fed us. 

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

Simply torching the Red Keep would be different. That's a precision strike, not carpet bombing. Varys, Tyrion, ect should be okay with that.

*If* Daenerys destroys the entire city she would be building the foundation of her rule entirely on fear, and that would be a shaky one. The moment she stops inspiring enough of it, she ends up like Caligula.

The problem is, Cersei has been inviting the smallfolk into the Red Keep "for their protection" but they don't realize they are actually human shields.   Would people be OK Dany torching all them to get Cersei, but sparing the rest of Kings Landing?

[Meredith Quill]

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think most people were fine with Sansa feeding Ramsay to the Hounds.  

The same goes for Brienne executing Stannis.

I was also fine with what Cersei did to Ellaria and Tyene because they deserved it for murdering Cersei's innocent daughter.   Cersei is evil, but I didn't consider that crazy, but righteous anger.  

I think with Dany everyone is looking for signs that she is the "Mad Queen", so she gets labeled crazy for things that wouldn't cause other characters to be labeled that way.  

There's a real-world known phenomenon at play here; where once a 'label' is applied to a person everything that person says and does is viewed through that filter. Example: An experiment was conducted where a handful of totally normal people committed themselves into mental health hospitals using a fake condition. They acted how they normally would everyday but because they were now labelled as 'having mental health issues' anytime they showed emotion it was viewed as a result of their 'mental health issues' - the non-existent ones. 

Same thing is at work with Dany.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

But we're talking about Westeros not Earth.  Westeros, is a very sexist and set up against women.

Medieval Europe was sexist too.

Not permitting secret, groundless annulments isn't about protecting women, it's about protecting the nobility's rights to their land and titles. If dad, or grandad or whomever could have shoved aside his legally married wife and retroactively bastardized his children, with no notice to anyone, and for no reason, no one's title is safe.

The nobility wouldn't stand for that

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

It is more likely that in Westeros, especially Dorne where we know they are more lax in laws about legitimacy marriage and divorce, that a man can get an annulment simply because they want one and without telling his spouse.

Oberyn Martell was YOLO incarnate, yet even he wasn't happy that Rhaegar abandoned Elia to run off with "another woman" (Oberyn's words).  I suspect he'd even been less happy that the children she bore him had been retroactively delegitimized, losing their rights to the Iron Throne.

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

Given that their are2 eps left, I think arguing Jon's legitimacy is a waste of time.  In the show, they have not shown any reason where annulments or divorces are valid to set a precedence so it is unlikely they will introduce it now. 

If Dany can "...kind of forget about the Iron fleet"...

[BitterApple]

I think my biggest gripe about this episode is that D&D completely screwed us out of an epic dragon assault on King's Landing in exchange for the shock value of killing Rhaegal when we weren't expecting it (and trimming the CGI budget along the way). 

I mean, damn, can the faithful viewing audience get any of the things we've been wanting to see for years? 

D&D need to join Ruin Johnson in the Hacks Hall of Fame.

Edited May 7, 2019 by BitterApple

[QuinnM]

1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

I think my biggest gripe about this episode is that D&D completely screwed us out of an epic dragon assault on King's Landing in exchange for the shock value of killing Rhaegal when we weren't expecting it (and trimming the CGI budget along the way). 

They needed to get Jon off a dragon for the next battle.  Solution?  Kill the dragon.

[Love]

I’m going to pretend that Jon & Ghost had their own separate goodbye offscreen.  It’s the only way I can believe that Jon would leave without acknowledging Ghost.  I won’t change my mind on this 

[Constantinople]

The argument about how Dany can get rid of Cersei while singing Kumbaya with the great unwashed of Flea Bottom merely reinforces how stupid it was not to torch the Red Keep and Euron's fleet at the start of Season 7.

[JennyMominFL]

52 minutes ago, Couver said:

Manpain is clearly allowed. Like totally ok to off an annoying kid that took out your murderous gf and plotted to kill you. Not ok to have any emotion about losing yet another 'child' and bff in gruesome and tragic fashion and going after person who is plotting to kill you.

I guess the exception is Arya who is allowed to get revenge etc without being called 'crazy'.

Arya is damaged. Arya is not a good person either. She is somewhere in the middle with Dany.

And Feeding Ramsay to the dogs is not Ok either. Execute him, sure.. But that was cruel and unusual and says more about Sansa than it does about Ramsay

[UNOSEZ]

44 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think most people were fine with Sansa feeding Ramsay to the Hounds.  

The same goes for Brienne executing Stannis.

I was also fine with what Cersei did to Ellaria and Tyene because they deserved it for murdering Cersei's innocent daughter.   Cersei is evil, but I didn't consider that crazy, but righteous anger.  

I think with Dany everyone is looking for signs that she is the "Mad Queen", so she gets labeled crazy for things that wouldn't cause other characters to be labeled that way.  

Arenas talking in- universe on the show or on comment boards... Because I'm a bit confused.. Because it feels like the majority of ppl here are saying IF Dany does this or that.. Then she's A mad queen.. Not the only bad guy.. Just one of many bad guys... Some others like me have been saying ( namely in response to ppl saying her doing this is out of character or something along those lines and possibly even sexist lines, that she's had instances in the past that show a progression to this tipping point situation.... In-universe on the show its simple... She's Aerys' kid she has dragons and she likes to burn shit down.. If I had lived thru the mad king and his kid was now about to fight to take the throne back and she's burning ppl who don't submit... She's the Mad Queen... I've no doubt that if it was Vyserys (sp?)  Doing what she was doing.. The fear would be the same... 

[UNOSEZ]

51 minutes ago, Bali said:

This has become just a hot mess! And I just had one more thought. If the double Ds are so hot to trot with surprising us. Here's a surprise I could get behind. Bran has another strange vision that makes no sense. This time, He is seeing another really blonde guy making love to a woman. The woman has a baby. Flash to the High Septum being blown up. Flash to a woman standing seared. Flash to now. Margery Tyrell is a Targaryan too! She is also dragon and unburnt and stuff. And this scenario is literally no more forced and out of nowhere that some of the other crap they've fed us. 

Im good with this.. As I've said before Margery was the best person for the throne... Sansa and the north wouldn't have had a problem bending the knee to her

[Absurda]

Quote

Dany just knows from the way the North treats her that if they found out about Jon they would want him because he's a northerner. So if he truly doesn't want to be King the best way for that to happen is to not tell anyone. Dany should not even have to tell him, he should've known what would happen. But he's Jon Snow and he knows nothing. 

Yeah, Dany, so far, was right about this.  Jon is totally naive in thinking that just saying he doesn't want it would be enough.  Didn't he try that with commander of the night's watch and king in the north?  Didn't work then, what makes him think it would work now?  I have no problem with Dany asking him to keep it to himself, but it's his secret to tell or not as he sees fit.  I would question what he actually gains by revealing his parentage.  If he didn't want the IR, then he had every reason in the world not to tell anyone, not even the Starks. 

Quote

Please! I keep hearing on so many behind the scenes that Dany sees here that no one in the north will ever give her any credit or like her- only Jon. First, that does not jive with how people really are and if there is one thing this show has always done it is shine a light on real people and second, if that was truly true, if I were Dany I would take my troops back to Essos and make Essos more powerful than the 7 kingdoms. The north can suffer under Cersie.  

Yeah, I'm starting to think Dany should just take her dragons and armies and go back to Essos.  Jon and the North won't raise a finger to dethrone Cercei because they don't give a flying f*** about the rest of Westeros, only the North.  The only time they'd fight Cercei would be if she came north to them, with vastly larger mercenary armies.  At this point, the North would deserve what they get. 

There's absolutely 0 reason for any of them to mistrust Dany, their only reason is "she's not one of us" which, as Jon points out, is an attitude that would leave them severely lacking in allies.  There's no reason to believe the North could stand alone forever without any allies.  They needed the Vale to win against Ramsey and Wildlings and Dany's armies to win against the NK.

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I think with Dany everyone is looking for signs that she is the "Mad Queen", so she gets labeled crazy for things that wouldn't cause other characters to be labeled that way.  

Yeah, agreed. I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe Dany is at all insane.  She tends to react with emotion, but that's not the same thing.  She hasn't actually burned down KL, she's threatened to but she actually hasn't done it.

Re:  Sansa

She needs to stop giving military advice, she really sucks at it.  She makes general, high-level statements that sound reasonable, but has absolutely nothing to back it up making her advice pretty useless.

Sansa:  Don't do what Ramsey wants

Jon:  What does Ramsey want?

Sansa:  I don't know!  Just don't do it!

Sansa:  The army needs to rest

Dany:  How long?

Sansa:  I don't know!

To be useful, Sansa should have consulted with the generals beforehand and come to the meeting with that info.  I mean, did she not know what meeting she'd be attending?  If she hadn't consulted with the generals, how did she even know the men needed to rest?  She's making a reasonable assumption but has no data to back it up.  I can totally understand why Dany would think that's a stalling tactic on Sansa's part to try and get out of going South.

Edited to Add:

Forgot to say, Re:  Jon and Ghost

That was the least satisfying goodbye I have ever seen.  We can't even see Jon saying goodbye to Ghost or that he'll miss him or anything???  What, is Kit Harrington allergic to or terrified of dogs?  Just telling Tormond:  Take this raggedy, beat up, unneeded wolf back with you so he can run around on a farm up north or something.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Absurda
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[Andromeda]

7 hours ago, Friendly kitty said:

3. Deaneris goes crazy. Very crazy. Still, blood is not water. If there were crazy people in the family, then it will be the same with her. But sad, yes.

Exactly where and how did she go crazy? I have yet to understand where this is coming from. We are being told she's on the edge, or something like that, by Varys and Tyrion. But I have not been shown it. Or did I miss a scene of her ranting and raving and throwing dishes? Even that wouldn't be "crazy," just angry. 

Was she shown hearing voices? Seeing things that aren't there? Wanting to commit suicide or being bipolar? No, No, No and no, for starters.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Andromeda

[JennyMominFL]

Just now, Andromeda said:

Exactly where and how did she go crazy? I have yet to understand where this is coming from. We are being told she's on the edge, or something like that, by Varys and Tyrion. But I have not been shown it. Or did I miss a scene of her ranting and raving and throwing dishes? Even that wouldn't be "crazy," just angry. 

Dany is not crazy. Honestly, Ive not seen many people actually say she is. Ruthless, angry etc are not the same as crazy. Even if Dany does burn KL to the ground and kills hundreds of thousands of people, it does not mean she is crazy. Were the people who flattened Dresden crazy? Is everyone who commits war crimes crazy? Is Cersie crazy or Evil?

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I mean, damn, can the faithful viewing audience get any of the things we've been wanting to see for years? 

I think we've gotten some. The non-expensive non CGI ones, heh.

Edited May 7, 2019 by ulkis

[Wendy]

16 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Perhaps if Dany had followed Sansa’s suggestion to recuperate before going after Cersei, Rhaegal wouldn’t have been flying with a hole in his wing and have been able to evade some of Euron’s arrows. What does it say about Dany that she doesn’t think about the health of her beloved dragons before insisting they leave fo Kings Landing pronto?

Jon and Dany are lucky Westeros does not seem to have an ASPCA equivalent.

IMO Dany was in a rush to leave because she didn't want Jon to tell Sansa and Arya about his birth. The sooner they left, the less time he got. She never thought for a second how this will affect the outcome of the war to come. She is a very rushed person with poor thinking skills. 

That scene between Daenerys and Jon sealed it for me. First she comes all conciliatory, she is not mad anymore, she is all meekly and humble, she had a purpose in mind and it was to convince Jon to keep the secret and to swear Sam and Bran to secrecy. She used her sex wiles and almost got away with it, but then when Jon told her that he needed to tell Arya and Sansa, the sweet loving Daenerys changed, now she was pleading, she was trying to make him see that it will affect them as a couple, she said "I just want it to me like it was before between us", dangling the loving relationship in front of his nose. Once Jon let her know that his family was important and they can work together meaning he was still going to tell them the secret, then Daenerys mood changed completely, now you got to see the real Daenerys, the one who said, " We can work together, I just told you how" with that expression in her face and the tone of voice that indicated that this was not a request, it was a threat. Jon even seemed surprised for a second there before she left. 

That Daenerys is the one that Sansa sees, the one who manipulates, the one who uses any means necessary to get what she wants and when she doesn't get it then she threatens. No wonder her advisors and even Jon seem to be scared of her. They have spent time with her, they know her, they know her reactions when she is angry, but they have no other way to deal with it than to pacify her, cuddle her and reassure her even when she is wrong. 

Jon as Warden of the North should have thought about his soldiers, they needed rest. He should have been the one bringing this concern up, when it was obvious he wouldn't say anything then Sansa had to do it, instead of considering it Daenerys again reacts with puss in her face and a tone of voice that let anyone know that she is the Queen and her voice is final. I think that is when Arya made up her mind about Daenerys. I figure previous to that Area was on the fence but that probably sealed the deal. 

[Andromeda]

7 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But Jon has no desire to unbend the knee or take the Iron Throne.  It is the devious eunuch, dwarf and Joffrey's beloved Sansa who want him to break his oath and take a throne he does not want.   

I find it funny that the corrupt cowards who ran KL in the past should get to decide who rules.  Why do Varys, who betrays people like it is nothing and Tyrion, who was a debauched drunk and now a totally incompetent Hand of the Queen get to decide what is best for the people of Westeros?   

And why is Varys good for "the realm"?  Westeros sucked when he served King Areys, King Robert, and King Joffrey.   Is being a key member of 3 disastrous administrations supposed to look good on his resume?  

If Jon wants the throne, let him claim it and, if necessary, fight for it.  Of course, if he took the throne, Varys, Tyrion and Sansa would also stab him in the back as soon as they convinced themselves it was "right".  

Besides, that, they all have a much bigger and more immediate problem, right now.  Cersei.  Couldn't they defeat her first and then quarrel over who replaces her?

I really hate how they are turning Tyrion into a backstabber.  Daenerys has been nothing but good to him  She took him into her inner circle and made him her Hand, despite him being from the family of her worst enemy.  She also forgave him all his many blunders as hand.  In return, he shows zero loyalty and schemes with Varys and Sansa behind her back.  Varys is just being Varys and Sansa is just being Sansa, but Tyrion has sunk to his lowest level. 

Jon would be quickly betrayed, just like Ned was. Heck, just like HE was as Lord Commander. He is still too naive to rule in this world.

It am really sad about Tyrion even considering switching sides. The scene where Dany makes him her hand is so amazing, and now their relationship is being ruined, unless he comes back around.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

No-one says they have to go to Dany. Go to the countryside, go to Dorne, go to anywhere that isn't King's Landing basically. Just GTFO asap. Evacuate!

Except they've been told they'll be protected in Kings Landing, and they can't depend on that out in the countryside.  I mean, you, I, everyone here knows Cersei is lying, but the masses tend to believe what they're told.  And they've surely heard about the destruction of the Loot/Provision train - that would make them less likely to think they'd be safe away from Cersei's army and outside the city walls mounted with dragon-killing scorpions.

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

This is just semantics. Leave or def die, it's an easy choice - legs are all that's required.

Except the people don't think they'll definitely die if they don't leave Kings Landing.  They believe Cersei's army will protect them.  They're most likely wrong, but that's what they've been told.

[iMonrey]

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Because legitimate control of the North, Vale, Iron Islands and Dorne; with the Riverlands pretty easy to retake (which would provide a solid line of defense for their holdings as they regroup and rearm for a spring campaign to put Cersei in a two-front war from the Riverlands in the north and Dorne in the south);

Don't they already have control of the Riverlands? Arya wiped out the entire Frey line, and as far as I know Edmure is still alive, right? I suppose it's possible Cersei named someone else Lord of of the Riverlands but what happened to the surviving Tullys? Probably another question that will never be answered.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

You said the magic word: "MIGHT". Yes they might indeed die if they leave, however, that's infinitely preferable to DEFINITELY dying if they stay. That's my point.

But they don't know that.  We do, but they are not privy to all the information we have.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

Except she will take what is hers by fire and blood, and avoid the unnecessary murder and rape of innocents.

Except she won't be avoiding the unnecessary murder of innocents.  And Cersei was allowing people into the Red Keep specifically to use them as human shields in the episode.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

But that doesn't make her a tyrant or mad, it makes her formidable and yes, someone to be feared but what absolute ruler/monarch wasn't feared to varying extents??

It may not make her mad, but it does make her a tyrant.

Look, I like Dany, and really hope it doesn't go down like that, but if it does, she's no better than what she wants to replace.