S05.E20: Gone Rogue

[Trini]

Quote

Barry continues to struggle with how he feels about Nora's betrayal. Brie Larvan (guest star Emily Kinney), Joss Jackam (guest star Reina Hardesty) and Peter Merkel (guest star Troy James) return to Central City. Meanwhile, Cisco makes a bold decision.

Kristin Windell directed the episode written by Sam Chalsen & Joshua V. Gilbert.

Airdate: 4/30/2019

[Trini]

Clip:

[SimoneS]

Well, that was an hour of my life I will never get back! I might have even lost several precious IQ points.

All I can say is that Candice Patton is a hell of actress for managing not to burst out in laughter having to say that dialogue about Thawne. Grant couldn't even hold in an inappropriate smile during that scene.  I was actually embarrassed for the actors. Helbing must be really burnt out if he thinks that this is good storytelling. 

Nora is almost 30 years old. Yet she is acting like a freaking 10 year old having a trantrum and Barry and Iris are acting as if she is 10 years old. WTH! Why do they keep calling the past Nora's home? She belongs in the future and is tampering the timeline by staying in the past. Plus she is working with a psychopathic murderer. I hope Thawne makes Nora pay big time for her stupidity. She cannot be gone soon enough. 

Having Cisco back was ruined by his plot. He has been dating Kamilla for two seconds, but they think he should tell her that he is a meta, even though they refused to tell Iris for almost a year! As for Cisco taking the meta human cure, whatever. Just get it over with so I don't have to put up with mopey Cisco any more.

I can't believe that the only redeeming part of this episode was Ralph. He has become the sweetest guy after that obnoxious start. Hartley Sawyer is a gem.

I will say it again they have got to get rid of at least two members of Team Flash. There simply isn't enough screen time for all of these characters.

Edited May 1, 2019 by SimoneS

[BeautifulFlower]

It was okay.

I didn't care for Caitlin and Ralph subplot

Why are these people still trying to get Cisco tell Kamilla? They've been together for a month. It's not time yet.

I'm glad they had Sherloque apologize for the way he exposed Nora. I wasn't okay with how he did it.

I'm glad they had Barry apologize for the way he treated Nora. He had every right to be mad, but did basically give up on his own child. He disowned her. That will hurt anyone to the core. 

With that said, Nora literally acted like a child. She wouldn't hear Barry out. Nora, he only asked who you were talking to because he JUST heard you. Nora literally acted like a little kid. She threw a tantrum. That is not normal.

I knew the rogues was gonna turn on her. Did she really think they fully trusted her? She's XS and worked with The Flash. Why would they all of a sudden trust a hero?

Thanks to what Nora did, they know who she is and that Flash has a child. They also know Flash works at Star Labs and Cisco knows him.

JENNI OGNATS!!!!!! Loved seeing that Easter Egg

Edited May 1, 2019 by BeautifulFlower

[cambridgeguy]

Say what you will about this season but Ragdoll has been a win just for his creepiness factor.  Looks like he has a glass jaw though.

And for the love of god, "home" is 2049!  What exactly is the plan here, Barry and Iris?  You want to be roomies with your time traveling adult daughter forever?  Barry might be prone to acting like an irrational asshole but Iris isn't looking all that smart either - being blinded by love isn't that much better than being blinded by hate.

[Lantern7]

Nora breaks bad! For about one episode. And even though she came around in the end, she still came off bratty. I guess that was the point, but it was still a little annoying. Also, there's not much precedent as to how one should react when their father zips them to the future and is warned not to come back.

Who is that woman in the end? Oh, that's She-cada. Forgot about her. She's got her past self on life support and her father urging her on inside her head. I guess Chris Klein's deal means he has to be in the rest of this season.

Credit to Grant Gustin for looking like someone stomped on a puppy in front of him. As much as Barry was being stubborn, the idea that Thrawne had a point was probably that painful. In case one forgets, that's Eobard Thrawne, the guy who murdered Barry's mother. The thought was guaranteed to bring out the manpain.

B-list Rogues! Actually, with Snart dead, Weather Wizard in jail, and Mick Rory writing romance novels under a female pseudonym while traveling through time, are there any "real" Rogues? At least we got creepy Rag Doll again, as well as Joe's "Oh, HELL no!!" face dealing with him.

Note to the writers: "Frosbny" shouldn't be a thing. "Ralphlin"?

Edited May 1, 2019 by Lantern7

[BeautifulFlower]

This look was hot

[Lantern7]

6 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

JENNI OGNATS!!!!!! Loved seeing that Easter Egg

I know, right?!? I counted three shoutouts . . . maybe four. I posted the three I knew for sure on the Comics thread.

[tennisgurl]

I am just not going to focus on Nora being a total fucking brat with the emotional maturity of a six year old throwing a temper tantrum (even reenacting her buddy Thawnes signature heart move on Cisco, or at least threatening it*), and just focus on how badass Iris looked in her Men in Black outfit, complete with shades and giant gun. Ohhhhhhh yeah!

*Yeah she was apparently faking to get on their good side, but thats still a messed up thing to do, especially as Cisco had previously told her about when Thawne did it to him and how much it messed him up. And Cisco cared about him too, just sayin...

[SimoneS]

Nora made Barry, Iris, and Thawne better people? You have got to be kidding me! 

Have they ever explained how stopping Cicada will save Barry? The article clearly states that Barry disappears in a fight with the Reverse Flash. What does Cicada have to do with anything?

Edited May 1, 2019 by SimoneS

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Nora is almost 30 years old. Yet she is acting like a freaking 10 year old having a trantrum and Barry and Iris are acting as if she is 10 years old. WTH! Why do they keep calling the past Nora's home? She belongs in the future and is tampering the timeline by staying the past. Plus she is working with psychopathic murderer. I hope Thawne makes Nora pay big time for her stupidity. She cannot be gone soon enough. 

14 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

And for the love of god, "home" is 2049!  What exactly is the plan here, Barry and Iris?  You want to be roomies with your time traveling adult daughter forever?  Barry might be prone to acting like an irrational asshole but Iris isn't looking all that smart either - being blinded by love isn't that much better than being blinded by hate.

For realizes! I kept 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄so hard every time I heard Nora say “wouldn’t let me come back” and Iris saying “she didn’t come home” and every other variation of the same.

What? Is Nora going to stick around to watch Iris give birth to herself? Grow up with herself until when? This whole thing is SO FUCKING STOOPID.

I 😆😆😆😆😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣 when that weather witch and blonde I can’t remember turned on Nora’s whiny petulant ass. And I’m surprised that Jessica Kennedy Parker could even open her eyes, what with those falsies she was wearing dominated her orbs.

Edited May 1, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[tennisgurl]

Why did they even bother to write Nora as an adult when they write her like a bratty teenager who is wearing hot topic to piss off her parents who "just dont get her" while blasting Lincoln Park? I am trying to be understanding of her position, but she is just wearing thin on my patience. And even if she was just faking going dark, she really did attack her dad, and she did make a lot of really dumb choices. Really, as for trusting Nora, its not a matter of not trusting her, its that Nora is super trusting and kind of stupid, while Thawne is a known manipulative evil mastermind. Clearly she gets in over her heard, thinking she can handle sketchy people, and it goes badly, and she almost got people killed. 

Why so much of this unneeded angst with Cisco? Why should he tell his girlfriend who we hardly know, and he hardly even knows? And isnt he all angsty about being Vibe now anyway for no reason? 

I continue to be shocked at how much I like Ralph these days. He was really funny and sweet with Caitlin, and I thought them joking about them not being into each other was a decently funny send up to how every guy who showed up got paired up with Caitlin for awhile. He has become such a likable and sympathetic character, which is pretty impressive considering how annoying he got when he first showed up. 

I get that people dont want to give up on Nora, and I dont think they should either, but people seem to keep forgetting how personal things are with Thawne for him. He blew up his life when he was just a child, just to mess with Barry, so I cant blame him for being horrified that now his wife and daughter are all "give him a chance" with so little evidence that he actually changed. I did like the scene with Barry and Joe, about how it was hard for Barry to connect with Nora, especially at first. I mean, its a weird situation, its not like Barry had time to grow into being a parent, and its not even like Nora is a kid, of even younger than him. He just suddenly has a daughter who is his age who is excited to meet him, how do you deal with that? Further more, I have trouble buying that Iris would be behind working with Thawne either, no matter what Nora says. I can see her kind of going with it to keep Nora around with them to counteract him, but I cant imagine her really telling Barry how much Thawne cares about her and that they can maybe trust him. She knows what this guy did to Barry, HER HUSBAND, I just dont buy it. I do appreciate that at least they are getting scenes together again.

Her and Joe coming in as backup looking badass as hell was amazing though. More sunglasses for Iris please! Get her out in the field more to kick ass and take some names!

Ragdoll is always a win, that guy is next level creepy. 

[SimoneS]

Ragdoll is creepy and fun. Too bad I couldn't enjoy him or Emily Kinney's Bee character thanks to my disgust with Nora. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by SimoneS

[Lady Calypso]

32 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Nora made Barry, Iris, and Thawne better people? You have got to be kidding me! 

Yeah, I'm really loathing this whole Nora is a Super Special Snowflake thing they're doing lately. I know Nora is Barry and Iris' kid, and I know that they think it's super cool to meet their daughter, but come the fuck ON. Changing Thawne's life for the better? THAWNE? Nora's not THAT special, you idiots. 

God, Nora throwing a temper tantrum, not apologizing for lying about Thawne, and being an overall idiot working with the bad guys just makes Nora look like a complete dumbass. Also, the fact that she decided to "sacrifice" her relationship with Thawne for her parents instead of coming to the conclusion that she can't trust Thawne due to his past with her father is just....frustrating, especially when Barry had to give in and join Team Thawne. 

For fuck sakes, show. I hated Iris defending Thawne, of all people. I hated Joe's speech for the mere fact that it led Barry to deciding to trust Thawne once again. I have always called him an idiot for those times he worked with him. This may be the worst because he's only doing it because his daughter and his wife say so. Barry's gut is screaming at him to not trust Thawne with good reason and now we gotta witness several people be wrong when Thawne does turn on them.

Also, for the last fucking time, Nora DOES NOT BELONG IN THIS TIMELINE. SHE IS FROM THE FUTURE. THIS IS NOT HER HOME. GODDAMNIT. 

I am just peeved that Barry is made to look like a complete bad guy. His actions were wrong, don't get me wrong. The way he handled things was wrong. His intentions were right. Nora does NOT belong in this timeline anyway, but this episode did confirm to me that Nora isn't sticking around past this season. Her storyline is pretty worn out, anyway. And hopefully she fades from existence because no way do I believe that Barry/Iris will give birth to this version of Nora after all they discovered. No way do they not smack it into their future children's heads about how bad Eobard Thawne is and how he can never be trusted.

I'm just sick of Nora, at this point. She's such a brat and everyone lets her get away with it. She doesn't even give a shit that she has a mother in her own timeline waiting for her. She doesn't care. All she cares about is Barry. Ok, sure, she has major Daddy Issues and I guess she kind of takes after her father, since he's had Mommy Issues. But...the moment Nora decided to vibrate her hand to threaten Cisco, even though we knew she'd never kill him, is the moment I realized that she's way worse than Barry. 

Ralph was great. I did get a chuckle out of Ralph misreading the signs and Caitlin saying "wait, no, we're not going to get together." Ragdoll was awesome. Weather Witch and Bee Girl had some solid moments.

Everything else just grated on my nerves. Maybe I'll feel differently if I rewatch.

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Yeah, I'm really loathing this whole Nora is a Super Special Snowflake thing they're doing lately. I know Nora is Barry and Iris' kid, and I know that they think it's super cool to meet their daughter, but come the fuck ON. Changing Thawne's life for the better? THAWNE? Nora's not THAT special, you idiots. 

God, Nora throwing a temper tantrum, not apologizing for lying about Thawne, and being an overall idiot working with the bad guys just makes Nora look like a complete dumbass. Also, the fact that she decided to "sacrifice" her relationship with Thawne for her parents instead of coming to the conclusion that she can't trust Thawne due to his past with her father is just....frustrating, especially when Barry had to give in and join Team Thawne. 

For fuck sakes, show. I hated Iris defending Thawne, of all people. I hated Joe's speech for the mere fact that it led Barry to deciding to trust Thawne once again. I have always called him an idiot for those times he worked with him. This may be the worst because he's only doing it because his daughter and his wife say so. Barry's gut is screaming at him to not trust Thawne with good reason and now we gotta witness several people be wrong when Thawne does turn on them.

Also, for the last fucking time, Nora DOES NOT BELONG IN THIS TIMELINE. SHE IS FROM THE FUTURE. THIS IS NOT HER HOME. GODDAMNIT. 

I am just peeved that Barry is made to look like a complete bad guy. His actions were wrong, don't get me wrong. The way he handled things was wrong. His intentions were right. Nora does NOT belong in this timeline anyway, but this episode did confirm to me that Nora isn't sticking around past this season. Her storyline is pretty worn out, anyway. And hopefully she fades from existence because no way do I believe that Barry/Iris will give birth to this version of Nora after all they discovered. No way do they not smack it into their future children's heads about how bad Eobard Thawne is and how he can never be trusted.

I'm just sick of Nora, at this point. She's such a brat and everyone lets her get away with it. She doesn't even give a shit that she has a mother in her own timeline waiting for her. She doesn't care. All she cares about is Barry. Ok, sure, she has major Daddy Issues and I guess she kind of takes after her father, since he's had Mommy Issues. But...the moment Nora decided to vibrate her hand to threaten Cisco, even though we knew she'd never kill him, is the moment I realized that she's way worse than Barry. 

Ralph was great. I did get a chuckle out of Ralph misreading the signs and Caitlin saying "wait, no, we're not going to get together." Ragdoll was awesome. Weather Witch and Bee Girl had some solid moments.

Everything else just grated on my nerves. Maybe I'll feel differently if I rewatch.

A GAZILLION MILLION TRILLION TIMES THIS! You encapsulated what I’m feeling PERFECTLY. And I meant to add, that if I could give you a trillion million gabazillion ♥️ I would.

Edited May 1, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[Trini]

Gail Simone shout out!

Interesting that Nora's lightning is red, but still has the purple.

Yep. Ragdoll: still creepy. But that's a good thing for a villain!

Well, at least Kamilla gets a mention, since we don't get to see her.

West-Allen family all investigating together! ❤️

Ummm - how exactly did Gracada know about the super secret arctic lab?? How did she get there?? How did she know Cisco's cure research was there?? UGH I know these questions won't get answered.

Again, they keep giving mixed messages about Nora. They want me to be sympathetic to her on one hand, but then she's also acting irrationally. I know it's too far into the season, but some consistency would be good.

Wow, it took 20 episodes to get a Joe/Barry fatherhood talk. But I'll take it! Lots of family feels in this one.

LOL. NO. Thawne is never to be trusted. Something is obviously going to blow up in their faces. Just in time for the finale!

Great -- raspy, Inferior Cicada is back.

So Cisco's "bold decision" got cut? SIGH

[Trini]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I can't believe that the only redeeming part of this episode was Ralph. He has become the sweetest guy after that obnoxious start. Hartley Sawyer is a gem.

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I continue to be shocked at how much I like Ralph these days. He was really funny and sweet with Caitlin, and I thought them joking about them not being into each other was a decently funny send up to how every guy who showed up got paired up with Caitlin for awhile. He has become such a likable and sympathetic character, which is pretty impressive considering how annoying he got when he first showed up.

They've truly managed to make Ralph into almost the perfect supporting character this season. He only appears when necessary; is literally only there to support whichever other character with a story. Provides whatever assistance is needed. I still think he's unnecessary in general; but at least they're using him well.

Unlike Sherlogue, who is unnecessary and actually takes away (screentime, skills, dialogue) from other characters. The revolving door of Wellses better end this season, I swear.

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, at this point I'm rooting against the heroes and really hoping Eobard is planning a long con.  They all deserve to have this blow up in their faces for thinking that maybe Nora is right to trust him like she is.  Barry and Iris in particular really suffered tonight by being made to look like idiots.

Honestly, even if it was a simply a threat, I think I'm done with Nora for good by even hinting she might do Eobard's hand move on Cisco if he didn't comply.  Considering how that is probably something that will stick with him for the rest of his life, her bringing that back to him was stone cold.  But instead, they are trying to make it look like she is simply a lost kid who needed daddy's love, and all of her actions should be excused.  Nope, that doesn't cut it.  She's beyond a spoiled brat and is just a selfish asshole.  Again, it really sucks since Jessica Parker Kennedy is a winning actress and seems like a perfect choice for the role, but she has been written and directed to play the role horribly.

I did laugh when the New Rogues turned on Nora with ease.  That's what she deserves!  Although, considering how she and Eobard don't give a shit about messing with the timeline, she'd probably should have just taken Snart and Mick from different time periods instead.  They might be criminals too, but they are more business about it, and would have probably done it drama-free and no questions asked.

Another classic Joe Pep Talk!  Jesse L. Martin is alway good for that, even when it is over something silly like Nora.

I did enjoy Cisco and Sherloque together, mainly due to Carlos Valdes and Tom Cavanagh's chemistry.

Another season five episode, another remark over how surprising it is that Ralph has become one of the highlights of the show.

So the grand finale is aiming towards Cicada 2.0. weaponizing Cisco's failed meta cure and killing all the metas with it.  This would be more effective if Adult Gracie had been in the picture earlier, and we weren't wasting time with Cicada 1.0. and Chris Klein's bizarre acting choices.  Either way, I'm just here to cheer for Eobard backstabbing everyone, while they all stand around flabbergasted that Reverse Flash ends up being untrustworthy.  What a twist!

Edited May 1, 2019 by thuganomics85

[ottoDbusdriver]

33 minutes ago, Trini said:

Ummm - how exactly did Gracada know about the super secret arctic lab?? How did she get there?? How did she know Cisco's cure research was there?? UGH I know these questions won't get answered.

I guess she created the hole in the roof, but yeah, how did she know about that place ... in the first place ?

I thought original Cicada was dead.  Or was he just in Ciacada 2.0's head ?

[ybrik]

Yeah have to agree with others with the whole Nora and her storyline need to end soon. Which is a shame since I loved the actress on Black Sails. 

However is it just me or is this whole idea that Thawne wants to help defeat Cicada and destroy the dagger just one big flashing danger sign? I mean we were told that the records around Thawne's imprisonment have been redacted and it seems he doesn't have his power in the future. In Nora's future Cicada is never stopped so the blade is never destroyed and in that future Thawne has been captured. Somehow I don't think it will be a big coincidence that if Cicada and the blade are destroyed that Thawne will suddenly be able to be free. That's just a theory.

Barry for the love of God you can still not be angry at Nora and still not trust Thawne's plan. 

[steelyis]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I can't believe that the only redeeming part of this episode was Ralph. He has become the sweetest guy after that obnoxious start. Hartley Sawyer is a gem.

I love that folks have finally warmed up to him.

How cute was he in that beanie?

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Great -- raspy, Inferior Cicada is back.

I can't lie: I thought the Cicadas were really, really creepy in that scene.

Speaking of creepy,

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Yep. Ragdoll: still creepy. But that's a good thing for a villain!

He is my favorite villain this season; everything about him works.

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I am just not going to focus on Nora being a total fucking brat with the emotional maturity of a six year old throwing a temper tantrum (even reenacting her buddy Thawnes signature heart move on Cisco, or at least threatening it*), and just focus on how badass Iris looked in her Men in Black outfit, complete with shades and giant gun. Ohhhhhhh yeah!

*Yeah she was apparently faking to get on their good side, but thats still a messed up thing to do, especially as Cisco had previously told her about when Thawne did it to him and how much it messed him up. And Cisco cared about him too, just sayin...

I mean, what the fuck was that shit? Did Nora even apologize? Just how much fucked up shit is the show going to let her get away with before she's held accountable for her actions?

And I don't mean a time-out in the future where she belongs, where people love and support her and where she has the power of a god, I mean real accountability.

Nora needs to go back to her own time and never return, because I am done watching her whiny, woe is me, shitty character display zero character growth!

[Trini]

So the macguffin that Nora was after is going to be used to destroy Cicada's dagger, BUT, they've already shown that Grace doesn't need the dagger. So that's not going to stop her. (But now the virus/cure is the bigger threat.) Methinks that "destroy on the atomic level" gun might be used to destroy something else.

[Trini]

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

All I can say is that Candice Patton is a hell of actress for managing not to burst out in laughter having to say that dialogue about Thawne. Grant couldn't even hold in an inappropriate smile during that scene.  I was actually embarrassed for the actors. Helbing must be really burnt out if he thinks that this is good storytelling. 

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I get that people dont want to give up on Nora, and I dont think they should either, but people seem to keep forgetting how personal things are with Thawne for him. He blew up his life when he was just a child, just to mess with Barry, so I cant blame him for being horrified that now his wife and daughter are all "give him a chance" with so little evidence that he actually changed. <...>Further more, I have trouble buying that Iris would be behind working with Thawne either, no matter what Nora says. I can see her kind of going with it to keep Nora around with them to counteract him, but I cant imagine her really telling Barry how much Thawne cares about her and that they can maybe trust him. She knows what this guy did to Barry, HER HUSBAND, I just dont buy it. I do appreciate that at least they are getting scenes together again.

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

God, Nora throwing a temper tantrum, not apologizing for lying about Thawne, and being an overall idiot working with the bad guys just makes Nora look like a complete dumbass. Also, the fact that she decided to "sacrifice" her relationship with Thawne for her parents instead of coming to the conclusion that she can't trust Thawne due to his past with her father is just....frustrating, especially when Barry had to give in and join Team Thawne. 

For fuck sakes, show. I hated Iris defending Thawne, of all people. I hated Joe's speech for the mere fact that it led Barry to deciding to trust Thawne once again. I have always called him an idiot for those times he worked with him. This may be the worst because he's only doing it because his daughter and his wife say so. Barry's gut is screaming at him to not trust Thawne with good reason and now we gotta witness several people be wrong when Thawne does turn on them.

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Yeah, at this point I'm rooting against the heroes and really hoping Eobard is planning a long con.  They all deserve to have this blow up in their faces for thinking that maybe Nora is right to trust him like she is.  Barry and Iris in particular really suffered tonight by being made to look like idiots. 

...

  Either way, I'm just here to cheer for Eobard backstabbing everyone, while they all stand around flabbergasted that Reverse Flash ends up being untrustworthy.  What a twist!

2 hours ago, ybrik said:

Barry for the love of God you can still not be angry at Nora and still not trust Thawne's plan. 

Y'all have articulated better than I can about about how dumb this "maybe he changed; maybe we can trust him" plot point about Thawne is. And really? Having Iris of all people defending him? Why is the show making their lead characters look so dumb?

I mean, maybe if it was any other person, but it's EOBARD THAWNE, the REVERSE FLASH. We all know his deal by now, the Team knows his deal; why are they even attempting this??

[Cthulhudrew]

Ode to a Weather Witch, whose personality doth be as tempestuous as her meta-abilities. E'er shall thy character bend to the whimsy of thine inconstant authors.

And man, am I ever glad they made that swerve with Ralph and Caitlin. Given what the writers on Legends are doing with two characters over there (one of whom I otherwise enjoy), I really thought for a second that the Flash team had decided to suddenly make these two love interests. Bullet dodged!

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, ybrik said:

Somehow I don't think it will be a big coincidence that if Cicada and the blade are destroyed that Thawne will suddenly be able to be free. That's just a theory.

So obvious that everyone can see it except Team Flash. This hasn't occurred to any of them even though they know how manipulative and dangerous Thawne is.

[SimoneS]

Other than Ralph, I liked that Joe and Barry finally had one of their father/son heart to hearts. It is a dynamic that has been missing this season. It doesn't help that there isn't enough screen time for them thanks to having too many characters on the canvas. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

55 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

So obvious that everyone can see it except Team Flash. This hasn't occurred to any of them even though they know how manipulative and dangerous Thawne is.

And they have already shown us that changes in the present (2019) affect the future --- immediately -- what with the scratch test they did on the Time Sphere.
So all of Nora's actions in the past should already be having dramatic changes in 2049.

Seriously, they have to get a better lock on the Starchives door.

[Lady Calypso]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

Y'all have articulated better than I can about about how dumb this "maybe he changed; maybe we can trust him" plot point about Thawne is. And really? Having Iris of all people defending him? Why is the show making their lead characters look so dumb?

I mean, maybe if it was any other person, but it's EOBARD THAWNE, the REVERSE FLASH. We all know his deal by now, the Team knows his deal; why are they even attempting this??

On the bright side, at least the stupidity plot stuff isn't completely on Barry; it's shifted to basically everyone else, but especially Iris. So at least Barry doesn't need to shoulder the stupidity entirely on his own.

But still....I really don't like any of this. Barry's right in not trusting Thawne. He should know; he's worked with him on and off and keeps getting betrayed. Listen to the person who has the most experience with this guy!

[jmonique]

Flash S1 was my favorite show in a long while.

But I missed last night's episode, read a synopsis, thought about pulling it up to stream and figured I'd see what you all thought first. 

Yeah, I think I'm going to pass, Which is huge, given how much I once loved this show, but I did not sign up for 20 episodes of "Nora West-Allen pitches a tantrum."

[Trini]

34 minutes ago, jmonique said:

But I missed last night's episode, read a synopsis, thought about pulling it up to stream and figured I'd see what you all thought first. 

Yeah, I think I'm going to pass, Which is huge, given how much I once loved this show, but I did not sign up for 20 episodes of "Nora West-Allen pitches a tantrum."

Do you still like the West family? The Iris/Cecile scene, and the Joe/Barry scene might be worth it (but they're partly discussing Nora, though). Iris & Joe vs. Rag Doll is definitely worth it, though!

[adora721]

I will say that hearing all the complaints about Nora being treated like a "special snowflake", Nora messing up and almost getting people killed, and never learning from her mistakes or being held accountable is great! These are all very valid criticisms, especially about an adult  who's almost 30 years old.

Now, some of you understand how infuriating and frustrating it's been for some of us watching Caitlin Snow being treated like a special snowflake, almost getting people killed, never learning from her mistakes, and never being held accountable for those mistakes. Welcome to my world.😃

Loved the West-Allen family reveal at the end. Ragdoll is fantastic; the crunching foley noises are especially blood curdling. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

On the bright side, at least the stupidity plot stuff isn't completely on Barry; it's shifted to basically everyone else, but especially Iris. So at least Barry doesn't need to shoulder the stupidity entirely on his own.

But still....I really don't like any of this. Barry's right in not trusting Thawne. He should know; he's worked with him on and off and keeps getting betrayed. Listen to the person who has the most experience with this guy!

Oh but, LadyCalypso, Thawne Reallllllllyyyyyy cares about Nora! HE was the one who convinced Iris to work things out with Barry, in order to "save" Nora.🤢🙄😒

[rmontro]

My favorite part of the episode was the fake Flash hologram with Sherloque providing the dialogue.  I actually thought that it was Ralph disguised as the Flash, the stuff he was saying sounded like things Dibny would say.

[Wilpen]

What I don’t understand is why they are acting like Nora is permanently staying in 2019. This isn’t her timeline. I don’t understand why they don’t realize there could be side effects to her staying. 

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, Wilpen said:

What I don’t understand is why they are acting like Nora is permanently staying in 2019. This isn’t her timeline. I don’t understand why they don’t realize there could be side effects to her staying. 

Who cares, he's the Flash.  If the timeline doesn't turn out right, he can always change it around to something else.  Right?  Really, with all she's done, it's a wonder the timeline isn't messed up already.  I'd say they could do that storyline next season, but they've kind of done that already. 

[BeautifulFlower]

I don't know if it's the script or the director, but I don't like Barry raising his voice at Iris. Once again, she's calmly talking to him, and he decides to raise his voice. It will never sit well with me. 

[mxc90]

I appreciated Nora's decision to remove her mask in order to remove any shred of doubt in Weather Witch's mind it could not be Nora West-Allen. 

Barry, Iris and Joe could have been shot in the back. They are lucky Bee woman and WW didn't ignore her request for no kills.

Isn't there anything in 2049 Nora is missing to go back to? Her CSI load is piling up? Something!  Barry and Iris need to find the answer and encourage her to get the f*ck out. 

[SimoneS]

Every time I see the "no killing" demand in a tv heist, I always think "you watch too much tv." People who commit crimes carry knives, guns, and other weapons because they are willing to use them to get what they want and to get away with their crimes.

Nora is an idiot. She thinks that she can bargain, scheme, and negotiate with criminals without any consequences. First, Thawne and now this bunch. They turned on her. She will pay an even higher price will Thawne does.

[BeautifulFlower]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

Every time I see the "no killing" demand in a tv heist, I always think "you watch too much tv." People who commit crimes carry knives, guns, and other weapons because they are willing to use them to get what they want and to get away with their crimes.

Nora is an idiot. She thinks that she can bargain, scheme, and negotiate with criminals without any consequences. First, Thawne and now this bunch. They turned on her. She will pay an even higher price will Thawne does.

I don't know why Nora was surprised they turned on her.

1. They're criminals

2. They know she is XS, The Flash's partner. Did Nora really expect them to trust someone who helps defeat criminals and put them in jail.

[Starry]

I would be more accepting of Barry and Iris letting Nora stay in the past if the show were framing it as them wanting to spend as much time with her as possible because there's a real possibility they'll never get the chance to be a family again. As far as they are concerned, Barry still vanishes a couple years after Nora's birth. The problem is that they have barely touched on it after the premiere, when Barry was eager to send Nora to her time but changes his mind after he finds out he's not in her future. If this were a consistent theme, being willing to mess with the timeline to keep the family together, I would be more open to the bad decision they are making. It would still be selfish, wrong and dangerous but there would be a character-driven reason instead of the plot-driven mess they are trying to sell. As far as I am concerned, Nora is still in the past because JPK is a series regular and Nora is needed for the Reverse Flash plot.

Trusting Thawne? Wrong on so many levels. He's going to mess with them in the finale and they would only have themselves to blame. Thawne is such a master manipulator that he's IMO exploiting Nora's issues with Iris. I think he knew Iris would become such a pushover for her daughter, give him a chance because of her and be able to convince Barry as well.

[Trini]

5 hours ago, Starry said:

. As far as they are concerned, Barry still vanishes a couple years after Nora's birth. The problem is that they have barely touched on it after the premiere, when Barry was eager to send Nora to her time but changes his mind after he finds out he's not in her future. If this were a consistent theme, being willing to mess with the timeline to keep the family together, I would be more open to the bad decision they are making.

I mean, this could have easily been Barry's story this season, but they hate logic and consistency? It's especially odd when Crisis is supposed to be happening next season, and they're not building up to that.
 

5 hours ago, Starry said:

Trusting Thawne? Wrong on so many levels. He's going to mess with them in the finale and they would only have themselves to blame. Thawne is such a master manipulator that he's IMO exploiting Nora's issues with Iris. I think he knew Iris would become such a pushover for her daughter, give him a chance because of her and be able to convince Barry as well.

It's so dumb; because it's not just that we the audience know he's shady and will turn on them, but Team Flash knows this too - so this 'maybe he really wants to help' idea makes everyone dumb and out of character because they know he only does things for his own reasons.

[RedVitC]

Where to begin...

I didn't think this was a bad episode, it was pretty entertaining , but what startled me was the narrative shift from 'Nora did something bad, but that doesn't mean she should have been dumped in 2049' in 5x19 to 'Nora was right and we should trust her' in this episode.

It felt to me like in each episode they had the lesson they wanted the characters to learn, but they didn't connect both episodes properly.

In 5x19 Barry and Iris learned that family doesn't leave family (btw, in what world would either of them have to relearn this? Family has always been nr. 1 for them. Especially Barry 'they're my family no matter what universe they're in' Allen)

 In 5x20 the lesson was trust your children 

If I think about it I can sort of make it work in my head separately, but not together. The trust in your children is not a bad message. If this had been an ordinary episode unconnected to the previous one, then I could probably get behind it more. One parent and grandparent saying Nora must have a good reason for acting the way she does and to trust her.

But this was connected to the last episode and the issue with Thawne. Iris clearly saw Nora lose it. Barry told the others that Nora had read glowy eyes. No matter how trusting you are as a parent or grandparent, red glowy eyes is not a good sign. If only they’d had time for that Star Wars marathon 😋

If they had to go this way I wish they'd given Iris lines more similar to Joe in the vein of still not trusting Thawne, but….. instead of her wondering whether Thawne had changed with no knowledge of what the plan was and with only a 5 minute interaction with Thawne. And again, the same issue I  had last week in making it seem like Iris doesn’t grasp how hurt Barry was by Thawne. No show, no

Still, in the context of this episode, Joe and Iris were right about trusting Nora in the sense that it turned out Barry was wrong about what Nora was planning (though in his last speech I think Barry took more from Joe's advice than Iris' with the callback to trusting Nora). whether it turns out they were right overall remains to be seen.

And you know what, more than any episode before they made me wonder if they might not actually be going down the road of having (this version of) Thawne be changed and trying to help. So at the very least they’re doing a good job of making me wonder.  I guess we’ll find out next ep

I would believe Barry's point about not fully being able to embrace Nora as his daughter if they hadn’t had him declare multiple times this season how he never thought he could love someone as much as he loves Nora.

I love Joe and Barry talks as much as the next person, but why can't Barry and Iris talk to each other about how they feel? Yes, Joe knows better than either of them how to be a parent, and I get that they wanted more than one person to talk to Barry about trusting Nora to get him to accept, but a discussion about how weird it is to suddenly be a parent to a grown daughter and how it takes time to get used to that emotionally is a conversation Barry and Iris should have had together at some point during this season.

I thought after last episode we would see them working together to get Nora back instead we got another disagreement. I'm really disappointed that since Nora's secret was revealed we didn't have a single scene of Barry and Iris just sitting absorbing the craziness of their life together without trying to make a point. Like I get that children tend to take priority for parents especially when there is an issue, but they also care and worry about each other and I’ve missed that in this arc.

However, I don't see Nora as more immature or stupid than Barry was when the show started (and most of the team really, and he was already 24/25 then. For pretty much every mistake Nora has made you can find an equivalent Barry (and in some cases Barry and the team) since they're heavily paralleling Barry’s season 1 journey. Working with Thawne while knowing what he did to Nora Allen? Check. Going back in time to change the past? Check. Working with rogues and then being betrayed by them? Check (and guess what, they worked with them again afterward). Frankly, the team has pulled the lets try to work with villains many, many times, and sometimes it works, sometimes it blows up in their face. Acting impulsively, throwing tantrums, needing lots of reassurance? Check, check and check.  

 One of the things Nora mentioned was the legacy of the flash in 2049 is his compassion or something,  that he could get through to villains. Which she actually sort of witnessed with Cicada 1, so I don’t think it’s that strange that she would think its the way to go.

And personality wise, acting bubbly, having a high pitched voice, being over the top enthusiastic/fangirling, being an emotional person, is not a sign of immaturity imo, that's just personality, and in the case of her voice, biology. A few of those diary entries seem like teenager like speak? Sure, but it reads exactly the same way as Cisco’s chronicle entries so I’m not sure why that would be a big deal.

And even if she is a bit immature, I honestly don't find that the worst character flaw one could have.

This is not to say she didn’t make mistakes or to excuse her behavior or that I think she is right, or that because Barry was similar it is ok,  but only that I absolutely don’t think that she is behaving that far out of the norm set by the show's characters. 

If I have an issue, it would be more the lopsidedness in the writing of her regard for Iris and Barry. It was very clear in this episode. Before I felt like I could at least explain some of her behavior wrt her mom. But this episode, with every speech about being left behind I expected some sort of realization that Iris hadn't left her and that Iris had come for her. I thought that's what they were building up to when they had Iris go after Nora. The realization that ironically the parent she had always idealized was just as human as everybody and wasn't as perfect as she had thought he would be, while the parent she had taken being there for granted was the one that came through for her and showed her unconditional love. I understand why the focus was on Barry since he was the one that left her in 2049, but it felt very strange especially since they stressed that both of them were needed to save Nora.

I also wish they'd gone the route or been more clear about how the negative speed force affected her. It was clear that it was affecting her, but in the end they played it off as: oh I had to stay in a negative headspace. And I hope we get an apology to Cisco.

Another long, messy post. Sorry!

[Trini]

Pretty much agree with your whole post @RedVitC. The only thing I'd quibble about is that I think they've written Nora a more than 'a bit' immature. And Season 1 Barry at least had more moments/etc. to balance his personality.

I'll respond to some of your post in the Relationships thread.

[Quark]

This episode was leaps ahead of Arrow's showing this week.

Really great episode.

Also, I loved Iris' costume.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Quark

[Trini]

Re-watch thoughts:

Cisco & co. are kind of on the young side to be making Sex and the City references. (you can tell the generation gap between the writers and the characters.)

I guess the decision that Cisco was supposed to make (that got cut from this episode) was telling Kamilla he is Vibe. I get the story they want to tell, but to me it's kinda funny, because I've never really thought of Cisco as having a secret identity. And actually, it's only really been presented that way starting this season. Yeah, he wears a different outfit as Vibe, but he doesn't look that different from his regular self. Anyway, if he tells her and she's okay with it (and I assume she will be) then I hope this means they bring her back and expand her role a little more next season.

Speaking of Cisco: Can they stop having speedsters re-traumatize him over that one time he got murdered? Thanks.

Liked all the 'Young Rogues' outfits. Costume/Wardrobe is usually good anyway, but I thought everyone looked great in this episode.

So did Nora break Rag Doll out from prison?? Or even if she didn't, how did he get out? I did like seeing him again, but they never explained. Also was she really going to let the Rogues go or arrest them after she got the gun she wanted? Because both options are pretty bad.

I know Weather Witch has only made two appearances before this, but why did they just dump her redemption arc from last time?

Ralph's comic relief really helped the B-plot with him and Caitlin.

They had Iris express her hurt over Nora rejecting her even though she was trying to help, but they didn't have Nora make up with her by the end. Well, Iris apologized to Nora, even though she didn't do anything wrong. *SIGH*

Eehhh - Iris' speech about Thawne supposedly redeeming himself is still cringey second time around. And 'maybe Nora changed him'? Hasn't she only known him for less than a day?

I get that Barry's supposed to feel bad about the way he treated Nora; but I don't like that they framed it as a bad thing that he didn't want her to stay in 2019. She's not supposed to be here in the first place!  *sigh* And then this episode was about the team trusting Nora again, but at the same time, she gave them every reason NOT to trust her in the same plot.

I don't dislike Nora as much as some of you all, but I do think the writing hasn't been good for her; and now it's really affecting everyone else.

I'm glad Cisco was back and had stuff to do. I hope his love life gets to be a priority again at some point. Still hate Sherlogue, but he was good here paired with Cisco.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Trini

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I don't dislike Nora as much as some of you all, but I do think the writing hasn't been good for her; and now it's really affecting everyone else.

I like the concept of Nora, it is the writing for her that I dislike. They cast a talented actress with the look to be Barry and Iris' daughter and then proceeded to butcher what should have been a poignant and fun story. 

They also made Barry's character regress in the process. Last season, he had finally matured and stopped casually time travelling. This season's Barry is doing time hacks as he watches Nora time travel back and forth without a second thought. This could have easily been avoided if the writers had made it stick that Nora had lost her ability to time travel because of hitting the satellite. She could still communicate with Thawne using Gideon.

About Iris apologizing to Nora, my mouth literally fell open when Sherloque apologized to Nora. I thought he would be interrogating Nora about what Thawne was really up to. After all, he murdered his Earth 1 counterpart. The writers actually tried to turn Nora, an unapologetic liar and schemer into the victim. WTF!

Edited May 4, 2019 by SimoneS

[BeautifulFlower]

22 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I like the concept of Nora, it is the writing for her that I dislike. They cast a talented actress with the look to be Barry and Iris' daughter and then proceeded to butcher what should have been a poignant and fun story. 

They also made Barry's character regress in the process. Last season, he had finally matured and stopped casually time travelling. This season's Barry is doing time hacks as he watches Nora time travel back and forth without a second thought. This could have easily been avoided if the writers had made it stick that Nora had lost her ability to time travel because of hitting the satellite. She could still communicate with Thawne using Gideon.

About Iris apologizing to Nora, my mouth literally fell open when Sherloque apologized to Nora. I thought he would be interrogating Nora about what Thawne was really up to. After all, he murdered his Earth 1 counterpart. The writers actually tried to turn Nora, an unapologetic liar and schemer into the victim. WTF!

When did Iris apologize to Nora? I must've missed it. 

Sherloque apologized for the way he exposed Nora.  I don't think he apologized for exposing her in the first place.

Edited May 4, 2019 by BeautifulFlower

[Trini]

The director of the episode put up a few behind the scenes photos:

[SimoneS]

13 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

When did Iris apologize to Nora? I must've missed it. 

Sherloque apologized for the way he exposed Nora.  I don't think he apologized for exposing her in the first place.

I thought Iris apologized, but I might gotten that wrong. Sherloque should not have apologized, period. 

[BeautifulFlower]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I thought Iris apologized, but I might gotten that wrong. Sherloque should not have apologized, period. 

Actually, I disagree. Sherloque should have apologized for the way he exposed her. Putting her on blast in front everyone was wrong. however, that wasn't my problem with the scene. I said it before, but I didn't like he didn't wait and see what Nora was going to do. Moments before Cecile confirmed that Nora had something to say. Then, Sherloque came in and started talking. If he had just waited to see Nora was actually going to reveal something after Cecile said something, I would be okay. He didn't.