S08.E03: The Long Night

[catrice2]

The real hero?  Jorah and the Unsullied.  They protected the retreat ,most of the favorites, and gave up their lives facing that swarm...and they stayed in formation!!  Unbelievable. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by catrice2

[Dobian]

12 hours ago, Constantinople said:

But somone's point was that the Night King shouldn't have stormed the castle. He should have waited it out. He's been waiting thousands of years. In comparison, a multi-year siege is nothing. Sooner or later the people in Winterfell would starve to death, or they'd be forced to attack the Army of the Dead.

Yeah he should have, that would have been the smart move.  But unfortunately for the NK he's on a TV show, and the show wouldn't let him sit around for a bunch of episodes until the humans ran out of food, it would make for bad ratings.  So the writers doomed the NK.

[Law Mom]

I think Jaime will kill Cersei for revenge after Brienne dies defending him from Bronn.

[lucindabelle]

Didn’t Littlefinger also have green eyes?

[Cheezwiz]

4 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Didn’t Littlefinger also have green eyes?

I can't tell what eye colour ANYONE on this show has (except Tormund, of course).

My eyes are green, so... *also hiding in terror*.

[Constantinople]

56 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Didn’t Littlefinger also have green eyes?

I don't know

They stopped focusing or emphasizing physical traits that are seen as unique to a character or family. Tyrion hasn't had blond hair of any sort since Season 1, and they haven't bothered much with Jaime either. Stannis's hair was never so dark that I would have thought of it as "black of hair".

And I'm not even sure what eye color the characters are supposed to have except the Night King and his crew. Until Tormund said "I've always had blue eyes", I had no idea.

[Lady S.]

8 hours ago, izabella said:

Jon's arc was to bring everyone together to the battle so the NK could be killed.  Without Jon?  Everyone would have been minding their own Westerosi business instead of putting the pieces in place to kill the NK.  NK would have found Bran and humanity would be done.

Even Arya wouldn't have been at WF if she hadn't first been told Jon was there.  She went to WF to see Jon instead of to KL to kill Cersei.

Not to mention that Jon/Dany did fight the NK on their dragons, injuring undead Viserion and eventually knocking the Night King to the ground. That isn't meaningless just because dragonfire did nothing to him. Even ninja Arya couldn't jump up to stab him if he was still on dragonback.

Btw, for anyone who was wondering, the actress seemingly confirmed my assumption that Alys Karstark died offscreen.

[Constantinople]

4 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Btw, for anyone who was wondering, the actress seemingly confirmed my assumption that Alys Karstark died offscreen.

Damn.

I tend to think of her and Little Lord Umber together since Jon gave them back their lands an titles at the same time.

Little Lord Umber's send-off was so much more dramatic.

[paigow]

On 5/3/2019 at 3:25 PM, Uncle JUICE said:

The Gator?!? Louisiana Lightning himself?!?!?!? 

Actually, before he got lost rowing, Gendry had a waterdance session with Arya - IIRC he used a southpaw stance

[tv-talk]

On 5/3/2019 at 9:46 PM, Dobian said:

Well, they annihilated the Dothraki because when you run light cavalry into the face of a massive number of infantry you are going to lose every time.

but see now you are attributing tactical skills, patience, and intelligence to the undead that you previously are saying were a generally mindless onslaught. Infantry's advantage over light cavalry is based on holding formations and particular weapons/tactics. So how did the undead annihilate them so easily? Simple, by being almost akin to piranhas swarming or a pack of rabid wolves or an army of ants. And that's the same way they would have breached the walls regardless of defenses. They were going to pile on top of each other at base of wall til there was basically a ramp up to the top. It was also readily apparent that many of them could scale the sheer stone rapidly on their own. There's really no way that normal humans behind a castle wall are holding off an army of undead creatures, their fiend generals, and demon King with hot oil and dragon glass arrows.  

[tv-talk]

11 hours ago, catrice2 said:

The real hero?  Jorah and the Unsullied.  They protected the retreat ,most of the favorites, and gave up their lives facing that swarm...and they stayed in formation!!  Unbelievable. 

Intentionally or not the show did a good job of illustrating the tribalism and racism present when these decisions have been made by the europeans GoT is modeled around. The brown people were scorned by the Northerners before the battle and then a self-genocide mission was given to the Dothrakis followed by die-for-those-who-dont-fight-as-well-as-you last stand for the Unsullied. That's pretty much how Europeans deployed non-European troops throughout colonial era and previous to that as well.

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

but see now you are attributing tactical skills, patience, and intelligence to the undead that you previously are saying were a generally mindless onslaught. Infantry's advantage over light cavalry is based on holding formations and particular weapons/tactics. So how did the undead annihilate them so easily? Simple, by being almost akin to piranhas swarming or a pack of rabid wolves or an army of ants. And that's the same way they would have breached the walls regardless of defenses. They were going to pile on top of each other at base of wall til there was basically a ramp up to the top. It was also readily apparent that many of them could scale the sheer stone rapidly on their own. There's really no way that normal humans behind a castle wall are holding off an army of undead creatures, their fiend generals, and demon King with hot oil and dragon glass arrows.  

I wasn't attributing any of those things.  The Dothraki charged head-on into a gigantic pile of undead on unarmored horseback.  They were outnumbered by what, 10-1 at least?  You run light cavalry into the face of an army like that you are going down, even if that army is completely stupid.  You don't need tactics for that, just like you don't need tactics to takes out a bunch of archers dumb enough to stand directly in front of you shooting arrows. I'm not going to keep going round and round on how humans inside a castle can fend off an undead army whose only trick is to pile up at the base of the walls until they get over the top.  The tactical counter for that is remarkable easy.  The one way the white walkers could win without dragon support has been stated, just wait out the humans outside of attack range and form a circle around the castle so no one can escape.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Dobian

[perkie1968]

[Law Mom]

15 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Not even going to argue realism. Because if you want to do that, then we'd have to get into how she was able to sneak past all white walkers on her way to the Night King, especially when she could barely sneak out of the library with a few of them.   The mechanics of what happened or how it happened doesn't bother me, good enough writer can justify anybody beating anybody with enough development. My problem is with the buildup, don't develop a story to go a certain way just to change direction without explanation just to have a gotcha moment.

Actually, there was a big clue in the library.. Arya was hiding under a table as a wight approached, but when it looked underneath she was gone. This foreshadowed her sneaking into the Godswood unseen using the same stealth skills.

[catrice2]

6 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Intentionally or not the show did a good job of illustrating the tribalism and racism present when these decisions have been made by the europeans GoT is modeled around. The brown people were scorned by the Northerners before the battle and then a self-genocide mission was given to the Dothrakis followed by die-for-those-who-dont-fight-as-well-as-you last stand for the Unsullied. That's pretty much how Europeans deployed non-European troops throughout colonial era and previous to that as well.

Undoubtedly they will also try to find some kind of way to dehumanize or destroy the minority characters that they have in this show because they only really added them because the fan backlash. Nearby also mirroring society as reflecting them as Savages  or people who need to be managed somehow because they don't have sense for themselves without guidance and benevolence 

[millennium]

rewatched last night, plagued by one question after another arising, like:

why did Ghost accompany the Dothraki?   He had no bond with anyone in that charge.  We saw what happened to Bran's direwolf when confronted by a relative handful of wights.  who thought it would be a good idea to send Ghost into a tidal wave of death?   He would have served a more vital service by staying with the women and children in the crypt.

why didn't Bran warg into Theon when Theon made his run at the Night King?  Why didn't Bran warg into the Night King himself?  Or into Viserion?  anybody but the freaking crows.

why is the Night King three times the dragon jockey Danaerys is?

why is Brienne such a screamer?

did Gendry forge all that plot armor?

why does Sansa have a stick up her ass?  She's the Lady of Winterfell, sure, but her claim to that position is primarily by birth.  Yet she acts like she can run with the rest of the warrior set.  She seems to fancy herself an equal, or even superior, to the Mother of Dragons.  Yes, she enlisted the Knights of the Vale to bring home victory in the Battle of the Bastards by exploiting Littlefinger's lust for her.   But the rest of her odyssey was basically personal survival and largely contingent upon the help of other individuals.   She's no Lyanna Mormont, for example -- compare Lyanna's actions with Sansa's in "The Long Night."   I don't fault Sansa for not having a warrior's heart, but her imperial attitude has no foundation in reality.

Finally, how was Melisandre able to walk out and die upon an unblemished blanket of newfallen snow?   That whole landscape would have been a charnel pit.

Edited May 5, 2019 by millennium

[tv-talk]

8 hours ago, Dobian said:

I'm not going to keep going round and round on how humans inside a castle can fend off an undead army whose only trick is to pile up at the base of the walls until they get over the top.  The tactical counter for that is remarkable easy.

Ok sorry I missed that but if your "remarkably easy" solution is to dump hot oil than we can just agree to disagree.

[ferjy]

17 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I don't know

They stopped focusing or emphasizing physical traits that are seen as unique to a character or family. Tyrion hasn't had blond hair of any sort since Season 1, and they haven't bothered much with Jaime either. Stannis's hair was never so dark that I would have thought of it as "black of hair".

And I'm not even sure what eye color the characters are supposed to have except the Night King and his crew. Until Tormund said "I've always had blue eyes", I had no idea.

Unless the eyes are glowing like the White Walkers and wights, how can we tell with the dark filming. Unless you have a spiffy 4K setup like QuinnM's. Road trip to @QuinnM's house!

Edited May 5, 2019 by ferjy

[sistermagpie]

I think a few of these, at least, have straightforward answers:

12 minutes ago, millennium said:

hy didn't Bran warg into Theon when Theon made his run at the Night King?  Why didn't Bran warg into the Night King himself?  Or into Viserion?  anybody but the freaking crows.

I don't know if this is only in the books, but people stick to warging into animals because warging into people isn't really that possible. The human mind throws you out--God knows what the NK mind would do to you. Hodor was an exception because his mind was simpler, but if he'd tried to warg into, say, Theon he'd probably just be setting up an internal battle of Bran vs. Theon. Also whatever you warg into, you become part of that too so bad idea to warg into the dragon, which might also be more difficult because of its size. (Maybe you can't even do that with the undead, in fact, since they don't really have minds.)

12 minutes ago, millennium said:

why is the Night King three times the dragon jockey Danaerys is?

Throwing out an idea--because he controls the dragon the way he controls the rest of his army while she's riding an independent animal?

12 minutes ago, millennium said:

why does Sansa have a stick up her ass?  She's the Lady of Winterfell, sure, but her claim to that position is primarily by birth.  Yet she acts like she can run with the rest of the warrior set.  She seems to fancy herself an equal, or even superior, to the Mother of Dragons.  Yes, she enlisted the Knights of the Vale to bring home victory in the Battle of the Bastards by exploiting Littlefinger's lust for her.   But the rest of her odyssey was basically personal survival and largely contingent upon the help of other individuals.   She's no Lyanna Mormont, for example -- compare Lyanna's actions with Sansa's in "The Long Night."   I don't fault Sansa for not having a warrior's heart, but her imperial attitude has no foundation in reality.

I thought Sansa explicitly said exactly this down in the crypts. She pretty much announces that she's useless and that's why she's down there. But she thinks the North is important and that's what she means when she isn't capitulating to Danaerys. Kingdoms aren't just about who fights best. (Well, sometimes it down work out that way, of course, but that's not always the best for the kingdoms.)

12 minutes ago, millennium said:

Finally, how was Melisandre able to walk out and die upon an unblemished blanket of newfallen snow?   That whole landscape would have been a charnel pit.

LOL. Yes, where on earth would you find that place? Maybe she used the last of her magic to give herself an appropriate backdrop to die in where everyone could see her against the snow.

[millennium]

44 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think a few of these, at least, have straightforward answers:

I don't know if this is only in the books, but people stick to warging into animals because warging into people isn't really that possible. The human mind throws you out--God knows what the NK mind would do to you. Hodor was an exception because his mind was simpler, but if he'd tried to warg into, say, Theon he'd probably just be setting up an internal battle of Bran vs. Theon. Also whatever you warg into, you become part of that too so bad idea to warg into the dragon, which might also be more difficult because of its size. (Maybe you can't even do that with the undead, in fact, since they don't really have minds.)

Throwing out an idea--because he controls the dragon the way he controls the rest of his army while she's riding an independent animal?

I thought Sansa explicitly said exactly this down in the crypts. She pretty much announces that she's useless and that's why she's down there. But she thinks the North is important and that's what she means when she isn't capitulating to Danaerys. Kingdoms aren't just about who fights best. (Well, sometimes it down work out that way, of course, but that's not always the best for the kingdoms.)

LOL. Yes, where on earth would you find that place? Maybe she used the last of her magic to give herself an appropriate backdrop to die in where everyone could see her against the snow.

thank you for your thoughtful reply :)

[Lemuria]

Upon reflection, I'm less happy with this ep than I was right after it aired, and I very unhappy with it then.  It doesn't work at all, IMO, from the end of the NK story and the whole thing with Arya, which makes absolutely no narrative sense. 

I know I'm going to be accused of being a Jon fan.  I am.  I am also an Arya fan.  But I still think Jon should ultimately have been the one to take down the NK (eventually, because the whole end of the story of the the Others should not have been in Ep. 3).  And that's because there was absolutely no set-up for Arya doing this, while there was extensive set-up for Jon.

In 7-1/2 seasons there has been no tie between Arya and the NK/Others/Long Night story.  Nothing.  I don't think, before this season, we even heard her mention them.  It was Bran who listened to Old Nan's stories, not Arya.  She has had no interest, and no apparent knowledge of, the NK and the WW.  There haven't been any hints, subtle or otherwise, that she was tied into the Long Night story, other than she was a Stark.

"Ah, but wait," I hear someone say.  "There was Melisandre's line about eye color."  Yeah, except...No.  According to D&D, they first came up with the genius [/sarcasm] idea three years ago.  That would put it at the beginning of season 6.  And when did Melisandre make that incredibly pertinent comment?  In season 3.  

Clearly, then, that non-prediction had absolutely nothing to do with the NK, since they did not even intend to have Arya face off with the NK at that point in time.  So why did Arya kill the NK?  Because, according to D&D, "no one would expect it."  Of course not!  Because there was no set-up for it at all and it made no sense.  It would be like Chewbacca suddenly showing up on the Death Star in ROTJ and shooting Vader and the Emperor.  Would it be "unexpected?"  Hell, yes.  Would it make sense?  Hell, no.  Would the audience like it?  Not the vast majority of them.  (It seems that a lot of GoT fans feel the way about this as well, judging from what I've been reading and seeing around the internet.)

With Jon, it wasn't even just hints and allusions.  In addition to the prophecy, to Melisandre's "all I saw was Snow," to Jon's being the one to devote himself to fighting what what was coming, D&D even made it personal by adding those three stare-offs between the NK and Jon.  And if they didn't think that a lot of viewers would be ticked off and/or seriously disappointed and/or turned off the series because they bought into what the producers were putting on screen--just because said producers wanted to be able to shout "Surprise! Ha, ha, made you look!--well, that was, IMO, pretty dumb of them.

Because it's not being clever, it's not good writing, it's certainly not well-plotted when you can decide in the middle to change the person who will take out the NK just make it unexpected.  Good and clever writing can sprinkle in a bunch of clues and still finesse it so that the audience is taken by surprise at first, but looking back, they can see where it all fit.

It also means that anyone who bought into the Long Night being the core of the story was wrong and feeling both gulled and stupid, which not usually the emotions writers want their audience to be feeling.  I saw and heard of lot people who were annoyed that, based on the threat of the Others starting the show and being the thread up to this point, and that the point was supposed to be that so many people were stupidly fighting over something ultimately unimportant, the Iron Throne, and were spending all their time in petty political squabbles while the Apocalypse was coming closer.  Yet now, it appears that the political squabbles were what really counted.

Not to mention, because the producers didn't care about its making sense, just the surprise, they made it unbelievable.  First, they took Arya off screen for a time, sacrificing suspense for surprise.  Second, because they are incapable--in my considered opinion--of coming up with a clever way for Arya to get past all the wights and the WWs, they just had her jump out of nowhere off of the Winterfell trampoline.  There's no way that at the least the WWs would not have seen some movement and done something. 

And it wrecked the NK, who remains a one-note zombie.

I also wonder if HBO realizes that this ep could put a spike in the prequel.  A lot of things I read/saw were like, "Who cares about the first Long Night or the creation of the NK?  We now know that he amounts to nothing."

(I also saw someone raise a question that I've had since last season.  I thought I might have been the only one:  when/how did Arya reach that level of ability?  We saw her training and while she definitely learned in the House of Black and White, I don't recall seeing anything that resembled ninja stealth training, among other things. )

[QuinnM]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

Unless the eyes are glowing like the White Walkers and wights, how can we tell with the dark filming. Unless you have a spiffy 4K setup like QuinnM's. Road trip to @QuinnM's house!

The discussion with a refuge of The Long Night watching a second time from my house was that we are getting theater level production, cinematography, sound and attempting to view it on technology that was optimized for gaming.  Interesting opinion.  I just have a nice tv cuz I like tv.

[millennium]

15 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Upon reflection, I'm less happy with this ep than I was right after it aired, and I very unhappy with it then.  It doesn't work at all, IMO, from the end of the NK story and the whole thing with Arya, which makes absolutely no narrative sense. 

I know I'm going to be accused of being a Jon fan.  I am.  I am also an Arya fan.  But I still think Jon should ultimately have been the one to take down the NK (eventually, because the whole end of the story of the the Others should not have been in Ep. 3).  And that's because there was absolutely no set-up for Arya doing this, while there was extensive set-up for Jon.

In 7-1/2 seasons there has been no tie between Arya and the NK/Others/Long Night story.  Nothing.  I don't think, before this season, we even heard her mention them.  It was Bran who listened to Old Nan's stories, not Arya.  She has had no interest, and no apparent knowledge of, the NK and the WW.  There haven't been any hints, subtle or otherwise, that she was tied into the Long Night story, other than she was a Stark.

"Ah, but wait," I hear someone say.  "There was Melisandre's line about eye color."  Yeah, except...No.  According to D&D, they first came up with the genius [/sarcasm] idea three years ago.  That would put it at the beginning of season 6.  And when did Melisandre make that incredibly pertinent comment?  In season 3.  

Clearly, then, that non-prediction had absolutely nothing to do with the NK, since they did not even intend to have Arya face off with the NK at that point in time.  So why did Arya kill the NK?  Because, according to D&D, "no one would expect it."  Of course not!  Because there was no set-up for it at all and it made no sense.  It would be like Chewbacca suddenly showing up on the Death Star in ROTJ and shooting Vader and the Emperor.  Would it be "unexpected?"  Hell, yes.  Would it make sense?  Hell, no.  Would the audience like it?  Not the vast majority of them.  (It seems that a lot of GoT fans feel the way about this as well, judging from what I've been reading and seeing around the internet.)

With Jon, it wasn't even just hints and allusions.  In addition to the prophecy, to Melisandre's "all I saw was Snow," to Jon's being the one to devote himself to fighting what what was coming, D&D even made it personal by adding those three stare-offs between the NK and Jon.  And if they didn't think that a lot of viewers would be ticked off and/or seriously disappointed and/or turned off the series because they bought into what the producers were putting on screen--just because said producers wanted to be able to shout "Surprise! Ha, ha, made you look!--well, that was, IMO, pretty dumb of them.

Because it's not being clever, it's not good writing, it's certainly not well-plotted when you can decide in the middle to change the person who will take out the NK just make it unexpected.  Good and clever writing can sprinkle in a bunch of clues and still finesse it so that the audience is taken by surprise at first, but looking back, they can see where it all fit.

It also means that anyone who bought into the Long Night being the core of the story was wrong and feeling both gulled and stupid, which not usually the emotions writers want their audience to be feeling.  I saw and heard of lot people who were annoyed that, based on the threat of the Others starting the show and being the thread up to this point, and that the point was supposed to be that so many people were stupidly fighting over something ultimately unimportant, the Iron Throne, and were spending all their time in petty political squabbles while the Apocalypse was coming closer.  Yet now, it appears that the political squabbles were what really counted.

Not to mention, because the producers didn't care about its making sense, just the surprise, they made it unbelievable.  First, they took Arya off screen for a time, sacrificing suspense for surprise.  Second, because they are incapable--in my considered opinion--of coming up with a clever way for Arya to get past all the wights and the WWs, they just had her jump out of nowhere off of the Winterfell trampoline.  There's no way that at the least the WWs would not have seen some movement and done something. 

And it wrecked the NK, who remains a one-note zombie.

I also wonder if HBO realizes that this ep could put a spike in the prequel.  A lot of things I read/saw were like, "Who cares about the first Long Night or the creation of the NK?  We now know that he amounts to nothing."

(I also saw someone raise a question that I've had since last season.  I thought I might have been the only one:  when/how did Arya reach that level of ability?  We saw her training and while she definitely learned in the House of Black and White, I don't recall seeing anything that resembled ninja stealth training, among other things. )

I can't disagree with any of your points.   Regarding the last one, while watching last night I wondered where and when Arya developed the knife throwing skills that enabled her to cluster the dragon-glass daggers so closely together.  

As for why not Jon killing the Night King, well, the showrunners have built a reputation for spurning viewer expectations.  That's all I got.

There were many notes that failed to ring true in this episode.   For me, it's little things like Danaerys opening with that "girl power" speech and trying to play future sister-in-law with Sansa,placing her hand over Sansa's ... just no.  That's not the stoic warrior queen I know.   Danaerys Targaryen wouldn't have tried with Sansa.  She wouldn't have thought about trying with Sansa.   If Jorah gave her that advice, she would have rejected it outright even on a good day, let alone in light of the imminent battle and all the considerations before her.  

The beauty of the "girl power" in GoT is that it just is.  Until now nobody has had to call attention to it.   Now it's starting to feel self-conscious.

[VCRTracking]

It will always be heartbreaking to me that so much hard work went into that episode by so many people for so long and in the end the result was a majority of viewers saying it was too dark to see.

[JennyMominFL]

7 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

It will always be heartbreaking to me that so much hard work went into that episode by so many people for so long and in the end the result was a majority of viewers saying it was too dark to see.

I personally found it too dark. I also thought it was terrific in every way

[Umbelina]

On 5/4/2019 at 8:16 AM, BitterApple said:

Arya's had basically all the significant hero moments of the last several seasons. Killing Walder Frey, avenging the Red Wedding, taking out Baelish, killing the Night King and we all know she's killing Cersei. I should've clarified I meant S6-S8 in my comment.

Littlefinger was the remaining Stark pack united.  It took Bran, Arya, and Sansa to bring him down.  Arya just executed him.

On 5/4/2019 at 2:18 PM, Constantinople said:

Hardhome showed that White Walkers could be killed with Valyrian steel, which is how the Night King killed, with Valyrian steel

Yeah, I still have a very hard time believing it would be that easy, but hey!  It moved the story along quickly.

On 5/4/2019 at 2:20 PM, izabella said:

Jon's arc was to bring everyone together to the battle so the NK could be killed.  Without Jon?  Everyone would have been minding their own Westerosi business instead of putting the pieces in place to kill the NK.  NK would have found Bran and humanity would be done.

Even Arya wouldn't have been at WF if she hadn't first been told Jon was there.  She went to WF to see Jon instead of to KL to kill Cersei.

On 5/4/2019 at 7:13 PM, catrice2 said:

The real hero?  Jorah and the Unsullied.  They protected the retreat ,most of the favorites, and gave up their lives facing that swarm...and they stayed in formation!!  Unbelievable. 

That was so stupid.   They had a huge fortress to protect them, and fire, and a dragon, but hell yeah, let's all stand out there for absolutely no reason at all.

On 5/4/2019 at 8:07 PM, Dobian said:

Yeah he should have, that would have been the smart move.  But unfortunately for the NK he's on a TV show, and the show wouldn't let him sit around for a bunch of episodes until the humans ran out of food, it would make for bad ratings.  So the writers doomed the NK.

Could be.  That and the rush to finish the series.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Umbelina