S08.E03: The Long Night

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, steelyis said:

Melisandre redeemed?

No.

Nowhere in my post did I say Melisandre was redeemed.

Theon was redeemed. The Hound is redeemed. Jon Snow is redeemed. Each of them mourned and regretted their roles in the death of children and tried to make amends. I don't think Melisandre truly regretted her part in Shireen's murder, or the murders of the other people she had Stannis burned alive for the Lord of Light.

I think her only regret was backing the wrong horse, i.e. Stannis.

Look at her face when Davos confronts her about Shireen's murder; she looks embarrassed, not ashamed.

Here's the thing; I never forgave her for encouraging Stannis to murder Shireen. However, I understood her motivations; she honestly believed sacrifices had to be made to win the war against the Dead. I hate how she went about it, but I respect that she didn't do it to wear a crown or for personal gain. She did the horrible things she she did because she believed they were required to ensure the future of humanity.

Despite all the fucked up shit she did I have to believe saving the world earned Melisandre not redemption but at least the dignity of not being killed by one of the people she worked so long and hard to save.

I'm not sure how much difference there is between Melisandre and the others.  I think she has expressed that she made terrible mistakes.   One can see her as redeemed or not redeemed, but the same is true of Theon and The Hound.   

The Hound can at least argue he was following the prince's orders, though that really isn't an excuse.  

Theon's murders were probably worse than Melisandre.  Melisandre thought there was some greater purpose in burning Shireen.  Theon was just trying to save face and try to get the people of Winterfell to fear his pathetic self.

I'd say all 3 of them are redeemed, though it doesn't erase the horrible things they did in the past.  

What children did Jon kill?  Are you talking about Olly?  I think Jon felt horrible that he had to execute him along with the other mutineers and assassins, but knows it was the right and just thing to do.    

[Uncle JUICE]

9 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I also posted this in the other Long Night thread (it mentioned Martin and the books but I don't remember anything spoilery about it):

I have to admit, I got a bit of a kick out of this rant about the NK's end: The WORST ending for Game of Thrones!

Yeah, I've been scratching my head about the singular lack of reaction to that, as well.  

Two things, in fairness: lots of visibility issues in the whiteout the NK brought and it was f air distnace from the castle, so maybe didn't see it. It'd be like trying to pick out a single passenger from the window of a moving airplane, I think. Second, LOTS of weird shit went on that night, I feel like post battle they'd be like "Wait, you were riding a fucking dragon???? BADASS." When in reality, their planning sesh probably went like "So Dany and I will for no reason go wait until the Dothraki genocide is complete, THEN we'll use these flying dinosaurs with few weaknesses to roast a bunch of the back line of the opposing infantry by riding on them and making them do so. And by we, I mean both of us, because you know, two dragons and all. Also, I know how to ride one now." If you think of it that way, then the discussion is about "Wait, WHY aren't you starting the battle by toasting a bunch of their FRONT line again? I mean cool that you can ride a dragon [high five Dany AMIRITE??], but tactically I'm not sure we're past why we aren't preemptively striking with our clear firepower advantage again. Also...trebuchets, do we think maybe INSIDE the walls so we can shoot them more than the one volley? again, just asking."

[Dame sans merci]

6 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Two things, in fairness: lots of visibility issues in the whiteout the NK brought and it was f air distnace from the castle, so maybe didn't see it. It'd be like trying to pick out a single passenger from the window of a moving airplane, I think. Second, LOTS of weird shit went on that night, I feel like post battle they'd be like "Wait, you were riding a fucking dragon???? BADASS." When in reality, their planning sesh probably went like "So Dany and I will for no reason go wait until the Dothraki genocide is complete, THEN we'll use these flying dinosaurs with few weaknesses to roast a bunch of the back line of the opposing infantry by riding on them and making them do so. And by we, I mean both of us, because you know, two dragons and all. Also, I know how to ride one now." If you think of it that way, then the discussion is about "Wait, WHY aren't you starting the battle by toasting a bunch of their FRONT line again? I mean cool that you can ride a dragon [high five Dany AMIRITE??], but tactically I'm not sure we're past why we aren't preemptively striking with our clear firepower advantage again. Also...trebuchets, do we think maybe INSIDE the walls so we can shoot them more than the one volley? again, just asking."

THIS. We've been told that Dany breaks with the plan by flying in to take out some of the wights with Drogon...but if she hadn't then i'm not sure a single front-line fighter would have made it back into the castle. Why have both dragons sat there waiting when they could go on the offensive and even the odds a little?

We know that Drogon was supposed to light the trench when air traffic controller Davos made the signal, so Dany was supposed to stay close anyway.

[terrymct]

17 hours ago, MadameKillerB said:

I don't think that either. 

I was asking if that Go, Go theory had been confirmed because it doesn't make sense to me.

There was no mention of it at all in the after episode commentary.  You'd think that'd be something they pointed out.

[terrymct]

13 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Dany just randomly expected him to be able to do it without knowing his bloodline. I guess only targaryeans/ the dragon's owners being able to ride dragons is a book only fact now.

Dany gave a whole bunch of the characters a lift on Drogon last season when they were escaping from the battle where Viserion was killed and wight-ified.   A character who knows that can happen might not be surprised that Jon can hop on a dragon with Dany's permission and fly.

[Uncle JUICE]

25 minutes ago, Dame sans merci said:

We know that Drogon was supposed to light the trench when air traffic controller Davos made the signal, so Dany was supposed to stay close anyway.

Now that I think about it, Dany's small council DEFINITELY needs a Master of War. Or there needs to be some explanation as to why waving two torches like 100 yards from the flammable ditch, to a dragon who's potentially a mile away, is a better plan than simply "light the trench with your troops BEHIND IT (after baiting the dead, I guess, with maybe less than ALL of the Dothraki army, who could have been deadly archers instead of cannon fodder), trap the motionless wights right at the edge of it, then have the dragons come and rain death from above for a while. Maybe we can get 15 or 20 percent of them, then go from there, plus we'd be creating a wider border with the fire." 

I know, I know, we want to hand wave a lot of this stuff in order to enjoy the show, but jeez. 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Two things, in fairness: lots of visibility issues in the whiteout the NK brought and it was f air distnace from the castle, so maybe didn't see it. It'd be like trying to pick out a single passenger from the window of a moving airplane, I think. Second, LOTS of weird shit went on that night, I feel like post battle they'd be like "Wait, you were riding a fucking dragon???? BADASS." When in reality, their planning sesh probably went like "So Dany and I will for no reason go wait until the Dothraki genocide is complete, THEN we'll use these flying dinosaurs with few weaknesses to roast a bunch of the back line of the opposing infantry by riding on them and making them do so. And by we, I mean both of us, because you know, two dragons and all. Also, I know how to ride one now." If you think of it that way, then the discussion is about "Wait, WHY aren't you starting the battle by toasting a bunch of their FRONT line again? I mean cool that you can ride a dragon [high five Dany AMIRITE??], but tactically I'm not sure we're past why we aren't preemptively striking with our clear firepower advantage again. Also...trebuchets, do we think maybe INSIDE the walls so we can shoot them more than the one volley? again, just asking."

Not having the trebuchets inside the walls was just typical GoT Directors going for the more impressive visuals, but I think too many folks are discounting the tactical implication of the NK having a weapon proven to be capable of killing a dragon in flight, a capability the living at Winterfell lacked.

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Not having the trebuchets inside the walls was just typical GoT Directors going for the more impressive visuals, but I think too many folks are discounting the tactical implication of the NK having a weapon proven to be capable of killing a dragon in flight, a capability the living at Winterfell lacked.

THe vision of those speears gave me the chills every time they showed them after what happened to Viserion, sure. But then I wondered, given that he missed Drogon TWICE at close range, if when he hit Viserion, he felt like when you throw up a 3/4 court shot in basketball at the buzzer and it goes in. I like to imagine because what happened to Viserion was so tragic, they did NOT show the Night King's Bench guys going absolutely crazy like "WHOOOOOOAAAAA! DID YOU SEE THAT SHIT?!?!? HIT HIM FROM THIS FAR ARE YOU KIDDING ME?" celebration. I like to think that happened, please don't say it didn't :). 

[proserpina65]

9 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Was that scene even shown on Sunday night?  I've read that a lot of the crypt stuff got cut.

[Constantinople]

I don't think Jon was yelling "Go" at Arya when he was pinned down by Viserion, a.k.a the Go Go theory

• As others have noted, if that was the case, there should have been some reveal afterwards. There was none.
   
• It's a little odd there was no mention of it in either behind the scenes features: Inside the Episode and The Game Revealed.  Unsurprisingly, both discussed the death of the Night King extensively. The Game Revealed even had a segment titled "Making Kit Look Cool". And The Game Revealed is about 40 minutes long. Yet no mention of it.
   
• Arya isn't anywhere to be seen in the Jon/Viserion scene.  Any why would she. For Jon to see her, she'd have to be exposing herself to being killed by Viserion, either via dragon fire, trampling, biting or something else
   
• How many times does Arya need to be reminded? Melisandre already did.
   
• It's possible in the next episode TPTB will reveal that Jon was yelling "Go" at Arya, but they don't usually split a scene, or what's going on it, over 2 episodes with cliffhanger or hooks
  1. This episode didn't end with the Night King reaching for his sword while smirking at Bran.
  2. When Jorah and Tyrion were sailing through Valyria, and Tyrion falls in the water after they were attacked by stone man, we didn't have to wait until the next episode to find out that Jorah saved Tyrion
  3. Ned's surprise execution wasn't held over to the next season

They only exception I can think of is when Bronn saved Jaime from being torched by Drogon last season, and Bronn and Jaime fall into the water. It's not confirmed that they're still alive until the next episode. But I think we all knew that at least Jaime was still alive. If they were going to kill him, I think they'd pick dragon fire while trying to kill Daenerys over drowning.

And I'm not including J=R+L as an exception because that was a series long mystery that was eventually revealed. Not a single scene.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Constantinople

[steelyis]

48 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure how much difference there is between Melisandre and the others.  I think she has expressed that she made terrible mistakes.   One can see her as redeemed or not redeemed, but the same is true of Theon and The Hound.   

The Hound can at least argue he was following the prince's orders, though that really isn't an excuse.  

Theon's murders were probably worse than Melisandre.  Melisandre thought there was some greater purpose in burning Shireen.  Theon was just trying to save face and try to get the people of Winterfell to fear his pathetic self.

I'd say all 3 of them are redeemed, though it doesn't erase the horrible things they did in the past. 

To me what separates Melisandre from the others is I think she would kill a hundred more children if the Lord of Light asked it of her. She probably wouldn't like doing it, but I think she'd still do it. And to me redemption requires remorse, atonement and the resolution to never do what condemned you again.

I don't believe Theon, The Hound or Jon would ever kill a child again.

57 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

What children did Jon kill?  Are you talking about Olly?  I think Jon felt horrible that he had to execute him along with the other mutineers and assassins, but knows it was the right and just thing to do.    

I understand why Jon felt he had to kill Olly. The kid took part in cold-blooded murder, showed zero remorse about it, and looked like he'd kill Jon again if he ever got the chance. But killing children crosses a moral event horizon, IMO; and I'll never think it's justifiable.

Unless your name is Zack Goodweather then I'll fucking kill you myself!

[Bannon]

16 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

THe vision of those speears gave me the chills every time they showed them after what happened to Viserion, sure. But then I wondered, given that he missed Drogon TWICE at close range, if when he hit Viserion, he felt like when you throw up a 3/4 court shot in basketball at the buzzer and it goes in. I like to imagine because what happened to Viserion was so tragic, they did NOT show the Night King's Bench guys going absolutely crazy like "WHOOOOOOAAAAA! DID YOU SEE THAT SHIT?!?!? HIT HIM FROM THIS FAR ARE YOU KIDDING ME?" celebration. I like to think that happened, please don't say it didn't :). 

How great would it had been if the NK had done a Steph Curry style shimmy dance, after that successful spear toss? I may have decided that t.v. had reached it's absolute apex, and sold my flat screen!

Edited May 2, 2019 by Bannon

[Constantinople]

14 hours ago, seawind said:

True, but the Starks didn't invade and terrorize Westeros with wolves like the Targaryens did with dragons.  #westerosremembers

Using some vile sorcery, your brother fell on Stafford Lannister with an army of wolves. Thousands of good men were butchered. After the slaughter, the Northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain - Lancel Lannister to Sansa in Garden of Bones (S2 E4)

That didn't actually happen, but it's small compensation for the people who were ripped apart alive by Robb or Jon's direwolves.

And I doubt the people of the Riverlands are too thrilled by Nymeria, who scared even Ayra when Arya saw her again for the first time since Season 1.

[Constantinople]

14 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

If Jon was hemmed in by Viserion and saw that Arya was in a place to get by, provided he could keep the dragon distracted, that could have been spur of the moment action. Perhaps if he hadn’t distracted Viserion, Arya wouldn’t have gotten there in time. 

This statement in support of the Go Go theory contains an "If", a "provided", a "could have been", a "Perhaps" and a second "if".

Occam's Razor suggests it never happened.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, steelyis said:

To me what separates Melisandre from the others is I think she would kill a hundred more children if the Lord of Light asked it of her. She probably wouldn't like doing it, but I think she'd still do it. And to me redemption requires remorse, atonement and the resolution to never do what condemned you again.

I don't believe Theon, The Hound or Jon would ever kill a child again.

I understand why Jon felt he had to kill Olly. The kid took part in cold-blooded murder, showed zero remorse about it, and looked like he'd kill Jon again if he ever got the chance. But killing children crosses a moral event horizon, IMO; and I'll never think it's justifiable.

Unless your name is Zack Goodweather then I'll fucking kill you myself!

If Olly was old enough to participate in the murder of the Commander of the Night's Watch, and plunge a dagger into his heart, he was old enough to suffer the penalty.   He also showed zero remorse when asked for his last words before being hanged, but sneered at Jon.  

I also think the age of accountability in the GOT universe is a lot younger than in our society.   A 13 year old boy in Westeros might be like a 18 year old to us.  

[MrsR]

11 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

It's a little odd there was no mention of it in either behind the scenes features: Inside the Episode and The Game Revealed.  Unsurprisingly, both discussed the death of the Night King extensively.

It's not odd that it wasn't mentioned in the behind the scenes feature because it's not REAL. It's just made up bullshit so some desperate content provider can get a paycheck. That's it.  That's all it is.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

This statement in support of the Go Go theory contains an "If", a "provided", a "could have been", a "Perhaps" and a second "if".

Occam's Razor suggests it never happened.

I don't know whether that theory is true or not.  But, you could also argue that the simplest explanation for Jon apparently yelling "Go, go!" to an ice dragon was that he was actually yelling to  Arya.  

[Uncle JUICE]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

How great would it had been if the NK had done a Steph Curry style shimmy dance, after that successful spear toss? I may have decided that t.v. had reached it's absolute apex, and sold my flat screen!

I'm now reimagining the scene from the perspective of over the Night King's shoulder, like the opposite baseline low cam. And I demand GOT reshoot this scene exactly as I have imagined it, rather than do a spinoff. Just let me write five minute scenes from a different perspective, I swear it'll work. Because I have a ton of these. I could do ten episodes about the walks of shames.

[Uncle JUICE]

36 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Was that scene even shown on Sunday night?  I've read that a lot of the crypt stuff got cut.

It was not. 

[lucindabelle]

I actually thought Jon was yelling at the remnant of Viserion and that remnant of Viserion hesitates. 

[Constantinople]

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't know whether that theory is true or not.  But, you could also argue that the simplest explanation for Jon apparently yelling "Go, go!" to an ice dragon was that he was actually yelling to  Arya.  

Given that

• No one can see Arya
• None of the characters later mentioned that Jon yelled "Go" at Arya after the Night King was kiilled
• No one in the behind the scenes features mentioned this
• Melisandre already reminded Arya about the Night King, and
• Jon couldn't see Arya without her being at imminent risk of being killed by Viserion

a much simpler explanation is that Jon directed "Go" is at Viserion and means "Go away" or "Go and take your best shot" by an exhausted an demoralized man who believes it's all over and all his hard work has gone to shit (similar to Jon telling Melisandre not to resurrect him again if he's killed at the Battle of the Bastards).

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Given that

• No one can see Arya
• None of the characters later mentioned that Jon yelled "Go" at Arya after the Night King was kiilled
• No one in the behind the scenes features mentioned this
• Melisandre already reminded Arya about the Night King, and
• Jon couldn't see Arya without her being at imminent risk of being killed by Viserion

a much simpler explanation is that Jon directed "Go" is at Viserion and means "Go away" or "Go and take your best shot" by an exhausted an demoralized man who believes it's all over and all his hard work has gone to shit (similar to Jon telling Melisandre not to resurrect him again if he's killed at the Battle of the Bastards).

Spot the hell on. The yelling is frustration and frustration alone, waiting to be roasted I guess because the battle was clearly lost. Reading all this other stuff that's nowhere on screen into it, that seems simply unjustified. 

[ShellsandCheese]

45 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Was that scene even shown on Sunday night?  I've read that a lot of the crypt stuff got cut.

No it wasn’t. Clearly people don’t understand that just because something was filmed; doesn’t mean it makes it into the episode. 

[Drogo]

49 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Was that scene even shown on Sunday night?  I've read that a lot of the crypt stuff got cut.

No, I don't even think Tyrion had a sword.

Sansa gave Tyrion the dragonglass weapon she had because she knew she wouldn't use it and she felt she could trust him to protect her.  As soon as he had it in his hand, they stopped hiding.

^This is all of the crypt scenes from the episode with the brightness way up. 

• Dead Starks start hammering through the sides of their tombs.
• Sansa takes off running in the opposite direction
• Tyrion motions for Sansa to come with him.
• Wights kill a bunch of civilians, pan to Ned Stark's crypt where Sansa and Tyrion are hiding behind Ned's tomb together. 
• Sansa hyperventilates while Tyrion continues peeking out at the carnage waiting for death to inevitably find them.
• After what seems like eternity, Sansa pulls out her dagger and gives it to Tyrion who seems surprised and grateful to see a piece of dragonglass in the crypts.  (THANK YOU ARYA, again, for everything ever.)  He lets out a tiny smile and grasps it firmly in his left hand.
• He kisses her hand and leads her to find the hiding place where Varys and others are, then they apparently stand guard at the entry of it (where the deleted scene shows Tyrion killing a wight who tries to get into the alcove.)

You'll want to slow playback down to .25 around 1:26 to see the actual dragonglass handoff.

[taanja]

19 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I still prefer my fanwank that Arya came in hot Wudang style from one of the rooftops and the WW failed to identify the bogey ruffling their hair as dangerous.

I ❤️ this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[proserpina65]

21 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

It was not. 

I didn't think so.  I didn't have much trouble seeing anything (thanks, cheap Sanyo tv?) and didn't think I'd miss that.  That sucks then, a chance to see Sansa and Tyrion do something despite their terror and they cut it.

[QuinnM]

Quote

After what seems like eternity, Sansa pulls out her dagger and gives it to Tyrion who seems surprised and grateful to see a piece of dragonglass in the crypts.

Tyron pulls his own dagger out from inside his coat.

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Not having the trebuchets inside the walls was just typical GoT Directors going for the more impressive visuals, but I think too many folks are discounting the tactical implication of the NK having a weapon proven to be capable of killing a dragon in flight, a capability the living at Winterfell lacked.

The whole totally nonsensical tactical battle plan of Jon and Dany was one of the two main things that hurt the episode for me (the other being the invincible plot armor all the major characters wore except for Jorah).  I can even hand wave how Arya got within striking distance of the NK, the moment was so great.  But the battle itself was incredibly stupid.

Sending 40,000 or whatever Dothraki charging on horseback to their doom was the first dumb thing.  Obviously D&D wanted that visual of their lights going out to build the ominous tension, but that was spoiled by the fact that most people watching were screaming "OMFG what are you doing?!"  Not having trebuchets inside the walls, not building a network of trenches to slow down the undead and funnel them into a killing field, I mean, come on!  These aren't skilled warriors, they just mindlessly rush forward.  Many of them aren't even armed.  If their were a million of them, a skilled army of just 25,000 could have completely wiped them out no problem.

The battle would have been so much more impressive if the Winterfell army did everything right, but then bad things just happened, like the fog coming in, like the NK's dragon breaching the castle and torching it.  But failing to stop an army of mindless zombies from storming your keep for more than a couple of hours when in real life castles have withstood sieges from human enemies for months and even years, is pretty lame.

[Bryce Lynch]

26 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Given that

• No one can see Arya
• None of the characters later mentioned that Jon yelled "Go" at Arya after the Night King was kiilled
• No one in the behind the scenes features mentioned this
• Melisandre already reminded Arya about the Night King, and
• Jon couldn't see Arya without her being at imminent risk of being killed by Viserion

a much simpler explanation is that Jon directed "Go" is at Viserion and means "Go away" or "Go and take your best shot" by an exhausted an demoralized man who believes it's all over and all his hard work has gone to shit (similar to Jon telling Melisandre not to resurrect him again if he's killed at the Battle of the Bastards).

I don't think that is any simpler of an explanation.  Either explanation is possible but both are based upon assumptions.

Who says no one can see Arya?  We don't see her on screen, but we don't see everything Jon is seeing.

Did any of the characters say anything after the NK was killed?  IIRC, nothing was said afterwards. 

The lack of mention of it in the behind the scenes features might be the strongest evidence against the theory, but it is far from conclusive.

Jon didn't know what Melisandre had told Arya, so he mght have though it was his idea.  Even if he knew Arya was going to try to kill the NK, he could have been telling her to Go NOW, while he distracted the ice dragon.

I'm not saying Jon was necessarily yelling to Arya, but you other than the lack of behind the scenes mention, you have provided zero evidence to debunk the theory.  

[Drogo]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

Who says no one can see Arya?  We don't see her on screen, but we don't see everything Jon is seeing.

Showing it on the screen would lessen the impact of her seemingly coming out of nowhere to kill the NK. 

IMO, he's definitely screaming Go! Go!   If he was screaming it to Arya, they wouldn't have shown it.  It works much better as one of those things we pick up on rewatch or in post-episode discussions. 

None of this takes away from Arya killing the NK. 

[MissLucas]

First thing I'd do on the Iron Throne: kick those useless Maesters out of the Citadel and transform it into a Military Academy. Lessons must cover: Importance of recon (aerial and terrestrial by warging and on dragon back). Tactical use of dragons, both offensive and defensive (incl. air traffic control). Warfare using magical and non-magical animals (elephants included). Various forms of cavalry warfare. Siege warfare and zombie pest-control. Chemical warfare by wildfire.

The Academy's motto will be tattooed on each cadet's forearm: Try to stick to the damn plan for more than two seconds.

[Drogo]

3 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Warfare using magical and non-magical animals (elephants included).

No elephants, Your Grace. 

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Showing it on the screen would lessen the impact of her seemingly coming out of nowhere to kill the NK. 

IMO, he's definitely screaming Go! Go!   If he was screaming it to Arya, they wouldn't have shown it.  It works much better as one of those things we pick up on rewatch or in post-episode discussions. 

None of this takes away from Arya killing the NK. 

Right, even if Jon played some part, Arya is still the hero of the battle and the Night King Slayer.   

Thousands of people played some part in defeating the NK.   Even Sansa reminded them to put leather on the breastplates and ordered other people to gather  a bunch of food for the troops and refugees.

I can imagine in Episode 8:4, she will say something like, "Now that almost everyone here is dead, what does the Dragon Queen expect me to do with all this extra food?"

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Drogo said:

No elephants, Your Grace. 

Did either Bronn or Jamie know how much Cersei wanted elephants?  

If so, wouldn't it be great if they told  Dany and she had some elephants shipped in from Essos for Battle of the Blackwater II, just to spite Cersei? 

[taanja]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't know whether that theory is true or not.  But, you could also argue that the simplest explanation for Jon apparently yelling "Go, go!" to an ice dragon was that he was actually yelling to  Arya.  

Or... he was simply yelling at the dragon to "Go! Go!" as in --- get outta here! kind of thing.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, taanja said:

Or... he was simply yelling at the dragon to "Go! Go!" as in --- get outta here! kind of thing.

That is possible too.  There is not really any conclusive proof of either theory, AFAIK. 

[Constantinople]

20 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Showing it on the screen would lessen the impact of her seemingly coming out of nowhere to kill the NK. 

IMO, he's definitely screaming Go! Go!   If he was screaming it to Arya, they wouldn't have shown it.  It works much better as one of those things we pick up on rewatch or in post-episode discussions. 

It works much better if the story reveals, after the fact, that Jon was yelling Go at Arya. So far there's been no such revelation.

[Lemuria]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

But then I wondered, given that he missed Drogon TWICE at close range, if when he hit Viserion, he felt like when you throw up a 3/4 court shot in basketball at the buzzer and it goes in. I like to imagine because what happened to Viserion was so tragic, they did NOT show the Night King's Bench guys going absolutely crazy like "WHOOOOOOAAAAA! DID YOU SEE THAT SHIT?!?!? HIT HIM FROM THIS FAR ARE YOU KIDDING ME?" celebration. I like to think that happened, please don't say it didn't :). 

Wait, are you talking about the "grab a wight" episode?  Because the NK did not throw more than one spear before hitting Visarion.  He later tried to get Drogon but maybe because they were alerted to the possibility, Drogon dodged (so Rickon was clearly was not as smart as a dragon).

[Uncle JUICE]

8 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Wait, are you talking about the "grab a wight" episode?  Because the NK did not throw more than one spear before hitting Visarion.  He later tried to get Drogon but maybe because they were alerted to the possibility, Drogon dodged (so Rickon was clearly was not as smart as a dragon).

He went 1 - 2 on throws in Beyond the Wall, then 0 - 1 in The Long Night. Also, tough hit on Rickon. 

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

This statement in support of the Go Go theory contains an "If", a "provided", a "could have been", a "Perhaps" and a second "if".

Occam's Razor suggests it never happened.

Yes, I'm aware. I choose to believe it did. 

[terrymct]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

No, I don't even think Tyrion had a sword.

Sansa gave Tyrion the dragonglass weapon she had because she knew she wouldn't use it and she felt she could trust him to protect her.  As soon as he had it in his hand, they stopped hiding.

^This is all of the crypt scenes from the episode with the brightness way up. 

• Dead Starks start hammering through the sides of their tombs.
• Sansa takes off running in the opposite direction
• Tyrion motions for Sansa to come with him.
• Wights kill a bunch of civilians, pan to Ned Stark's crypt where Sansa and Tyrion are hiding behind Ned's tomb together. 
• Sansa hyperventilates while Tyrion continues peeking out at the carnage waiting for death to inevitably find them.
• After what seems like eternity, Sansa pulls out her dagger and gives it to Tyrion who seems surprised and grateful to see a piece of dragonglass in the crypts.  (THANK YOU ARYA, again, for everything ever.)  He lets out a tiny smile and grasps it firmly in his left hand.
• He kisses her hand and leads her to find the hiding place where Varys and others are, then they apparently stand guard at the entry of it (where the deleted scene shows Tyrion killing a wight who tries to get into the alcove.)

You'll want to slow playback down to .25 around 1:26 to see the actual dragonglass handoff.

One correction.  Sansa pulls out her dagger.  They share a look.  He pulls out his.  

[Drogo]

Just now, terrymct said:

One correction.  Sansa pulls out her dagger.  They share a look.  He pulls out his.  

I believe it's a quick handoff.  Otherwise where does hers go?  And where/when did he get his? 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

The whole totally nonsensical tactical battle plan of Jon and Dany was one of the two main things that hurt the episode for me (the other being the invincible plot armor all the major characters wore except for Jorah).  I can even hand wave how Arya got within striking distance of the NK, the moment was so great.  But the battle itself was incredibly stupid.

Sending 40,000 or whatever Dothraki charging on horseback to their doom was the first dumb thing.  Obviously D&D wanted that visual of their lights going out to build the ominous tension, but that was spoiled by the fact that most people watching were screaming "OMFG what are you doing?!"  Not having trebuchets inside the walls, not building a network of trenches to slow down the undead and funnel them into a killing field, I mean, come on!  These aren't skilled warriors, they just mindlessly rush forward.  Many of them aren't even armed.  If their were a million of them, a skilled army of just 25,000 could have completely wiped them out no problem.

The battle would have been so much more impressive if the Winterfell army did everything right, but then bad things just happened, like the fog coming in, like the NK's dragon breaching the castle and torching it.  But failing to stop an army of mindless zombies from storming your keep for more than a couple of hours when in real life castles have withstood sieges from human enemies for months and even years, is pretty lame.

There's a link in the thread to a piece in Slate, by professor at the Army War College, that does a nice job of explaining that strategy and tactics by the living was not nearly as bad as many suppose, especially with regard to the Dothraki. The upshot is that, given an opposing infantry with huge numerical superiority, which is immune to fear and panic, which has no need for a supply line, approaching at night with a functional dragon ( and weapons that can kill your dragons), the Dothraki cavalry had little utility, and to use it was to lose it, no matter the tactic employed. I suppose you could have them dismount, and fight as infantry, but that is a huge ask of any commander's imagination.

The biggest thing being overlooked by many (as the prof explains) is the giant strategic victory pulled off by the living at the outset, by getting the NK to fight a decisive battle outside the gates of Winterfell immediately upon the NK's arrival. Given his army has no need for food, water, warmth, or hygeine, if the dead had simply laid siege, the living would have simply had no chance of winning, again, due the dead having a weapon to kill flying dragons.

Picking the time and place of battle which is most favorable is a significant strategic victory for any military commander. Who knows? Maybe having the Dothraki line up for a suicidal charge is what, along with general overconfidence, convinced the NK to have a battle to the finish right then, which the living desperately needed.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Bannon

[catrice2]

15 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

Me too. It really bothers me. What’s to become of Bear Island? This has become the primary focus of my work day. 🤨

Yep

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

IMO, he's definitely screaming Go! Go!   If he was screaming it to Arya, they wouldn't have shown it.  It works much better as one of those things we pick up on rewatch or in post-episode discussions. 

None of this takes away from Arya killing the NK. 

I think the Go Go theory does take away from Arya killing the NK

Nothing can ever happen, at least nothing significant, unless Jon gets at least some of the credit.

It's not enough that Jon told everyone the night before about the importance of killing the Night King, or that he, or he and Daenerys, knocked the Night King off of Viserion. Jon must have an assist with the actual kill because Arya -- if she's even in the scene, for which there's no evidence other than the desire of some fans that she be there -- would otherwise be incapable of doing it herself

[tv-talk]

3 hours ago, terrymct said:

 A character who knows that can happen might not be surprised that Jon can hop on a dragon with Dany's permission and fly.

Jon is a Targeryan who doesnt need Dany's permission to do anything- something I'm willing to bet the dragons are keenly aware of and their behavior towards him will be the thing which convinces her he really is the rightful King.

Edited May 2, 2019 by tv-talk

[catrice2]

So we are to believe that based upon that messed plan that these people can beat Cersei's rested troops? They lost some of the best fighters and numbers are depleted. Not to mention have Dany or Jon ever lost a big battle? We are told to expect the unexpected.

I am a little annoyed by the lack of commentary regarding all of the Dothraki being sent to slaughter and most of the unsullied sacrificed to protect those behind the walls. Tactically nothing they did made sense.

Now I am going to lose grey worm and little bear.  This season is dragging and it is depressing 

[Constantinople]

Another reason I don't subscribe to the Go Go theory is how could Arya have heard Jon over all the noise, in particular all of the earth shattering noise Viserion was making?

So we're to believe that Jon is Steve Austin and Arya is Jaime Sommers.

[terrymct]

27 minutes ago, Drogo said:

I believe it's a quick handoff.  Otherwise where does hers go?  And where/when did he get his? 

He's pulling his out from his clothing like she did.

[screamin]

25 minutes ago, Drogo said:

I believe it's a quick handoff.  Otherwise where does hers go?  And where/when did he get his? 

He may have had a Valyrian steel weapon already, being hand to the Queen has its privileges. Or he may have picked up one of the dragonglass weapons when he was first expecting to fight with the others. His knife seemed a lot longer than hers, comparing when she held her knife up on the left to when he held his up on the right; they didn't look like the same weapon at all, IMO. As for 'where did hers go?' I don't think we saw enough of them after they got up from behind the tomb to be sure she was no longer holding it.