S02.E13: Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow

[Ottis]

5 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Oh please. Kelly drinks with him all the time and clearly finds him to be her best friend on the ship.  She also directly told him that the only reason she doesnt date him again is because he might send Bortus (or whomever) into dangerous situation rather than her- then Bortus might die instead of her because of their romantic involvement. Well guess what? If she really believes that then she needs to ask to be re-assigned immediately because obviously he does have feelings for her that could affect his decision-making regardless of whether they are together. So why is she sticking around if that is really such a big concern of hers?

That's ... amazing. The issue isn't Kelly's concern that Ed would have poor judgment because he has feelings for her. It's *that Ed has feelings for his XO* and that might result in poor judgment. If anyone should transfer, it should be Ed. 

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

As for the younger self thing, given we are supposed to believe that everyone most especially Kelly wasnt completely flipped out by young Kelly being there in 1st place- then no it's not that odd that initially he was crazy attracted to her and reciprocated HER ADVANCES ON HIM.

I agree, it's not crazy at all that Ed would be attracted to literally the same version of the woman he fell in love with seven years ago. That makes perfect sense. However, Ed has the benefit of seven years of experiences with that woman, and knows what happened, how they changed and how it turned out. If he respected both current Kelly and young Kelly, he would recognize how weird and awkward this is for them, and back off. But his primary focus is getting what he wants, so ...

3 hours ago, ganesh said:

I think it would be difficult for anyone on the ship to date because it's such a closed system, but I don't see what else they can do. 

All crew should feel free to date each other exactly because of that - except where you have people in positions of power over others, or other situations that might significantly impact the safe operation of the ship.

1 hour ago, The Kings Foot said:

McFarlane is a bad actor who looks like he has someone else's face glued onto his head.

Many of you are probably too young to remember this, but you know who McFarland is? Rich Little. Little was an impressionist and his actual face and voice was forgettable. 

[Chaos Theory]

On 4/22/2019 at 8:52 AM, tv-talk said:

Kirk would have kicked Picard's ass.

It’s hard to tell.  Picard was a thinker not a fighter but he wasn’t exactly helpless in a fight.

21 hours ago, CaptainE said:

It is creepy or more accurately desperate that he can’t move on.  There is a difference between women and men in terms of working relationships. 

If you’re in love with a woman who doesn’t reciprocate those feelings, grow up and move on.  Ed cannot.  

But he has mostly moved on.  It just changes when a younger version of Kelly shows up who he hasn’t screwed over yet and who hasn’t screwed over him.  It’s not creepy really if more the “what would you do if you could do things over knowing now what you didn’t know then?”  But it’s the double edged sword.  Would current version of Ed like the young version of Kelly?  

Edited April 23, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[ketose]

According to the Orville bible, (AKA Next Generation) captains can date senior officers. Picard dated the head of Stellar Cartography for an episode. 

[rmontro]

23 hours ago, CaptainE said:

If you’re in love with a woman who doesn’t reciprocate those feelings, grow up and move on.  Ed cannot.  

To be fair, Kelly kind of strings him along.  She gives him just enough that he keeps his hopes up.  As several posters have pointed out, she has basically told him "Well, maybe if we weren't serving together on this ship in command".  Which sends the message to him that the feelings are there, it's just the circumstances that aren't right.

[ganesh]

Doesn't reciprocate feelings != Saying that they don't think it's a good idea. 

I don't think it's as simple as Ed's position "If we still love each other we should work it out", but it's not accurate to say she doesn't reciprocate. 

They've been out socially many times, and Ed went so far as to give advice to the teacher bf. Not that he's the 'good guy' here or what ever, but it's not as cut and dry. 

I'd rather they don't get together because it does create complications, but I also don't think hooking up once and a while is off limits either. However, neither have been up front about that. 

[Jack Kerouac]

16 hours ago, Ottis said:

That's ... amazing. The issue isn't Kelly's concern that Ed would have poor judgment because he has feelings for her. It's *that Ed has feelings for his XO* and that might result in poor judgment. If anyone should transfer, it should be Ed. 

Possibly, but captains don't transfer because of failed relationships, first officers and junior officers do. A first officer is much more expendible than a captain on a starship.

Wasn't the Union desperately hurting for captains though? You would think they would have offered Kelly her own command by this point.

[Ottis]

23 minutes ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Possibly, but captains don't transfer because of failed relationships, first officers and junior officers do. A first officer is much more expendible than a captain on a starship.

Wasn't the Union desperately hurting for captains though? You would think they would have offered Kelly her own command by this point.

I don't disagree, in the real world. But consider the context of this show: Kelly is the up-and-comer with a sterling record. Ed was basically out of "the Union" ... until Kelly vouched for him. So in this instance, if Orville is an important ship, and that's not completely clear but it does seem to get some key assignments, then the prudent move would be to move Ed to a lesser ship (because, once more, a change is needed because of Ed's personal issues) and promote Kelly to Orville captain. If Ed then flames out again without Kelly on is new command, the damage is contained. If Ed does great, he can get promoted to a more important ship.

BTW, ALL of this is moot if McFarland had made himself a secondary character and not the lead. Which would have been much better for the show.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Ottis

[tv-talk]

Kelly was already going to leave the ship, so the Union doesnt see her as so epic she needs to be aboard the Orville- she stayed because Ed said it worked and she was a great officer. However yeah the whole notion that Ed would get command of such a crucial ship and then be the captain who gets to make decisions with the very top brass is a little strange. Guess we have to assume that before Kelly cheated on him he really was headed straight to the top, fart jokes and all. Given he was supposedly so career focused as to hurt their marriage it would make sense. Then he went off the deep end surely became a complete drunk, layabout, etc...and Kelly convinced them to salvage him.

[ganesh]

Admiral Victor and Kelly had a scene in the pilot I think that established Ed was a top officer and headed for a captaincy before he fell off the edge. So whether that's been borne out from what we've seen so far or not, the show did establish that. 

[Ceindreadh]

On 4/23/2019 at 10:26 PM, ketose said:

According to the Orville bible, (AKA Next Generation) captains can date senior officers. Picard dated the head of Stellar Cartography for an episode. 

And then they broke up after an away mission she was on went bad and he realized he wouldn’t be able to send her into danger again. 

[legaleagle53]

On 4/23/2019 at 6:45 AM, Ceindreadh said:

Claire is probably the only crew member who Kelly could talk to. I don’t think it’s been specified what rank Claire holds but as Chief Medical Officer she would have a certain amount of authority in her own right. 

She does. When it comes to medical decisions, she can even overrule the Captain.

[legaleagle53]

On 4/23/2019 at 2:10 PM, Chaos Theory said:

It’s hard to tell.  Picard was a thinker not a fighter but he wasn’t exactly helpless in a fight.

But he has mostly moved on.  It just changes when a younger version of Kelly shows up who he hasn’t screwed over yet and who hasn’t screwed over him.  It’s not creepy really if more the “what would you do if you could do things over knowing now what you didn’t know then?”  But it’s the double edged sword.  Would current version of Ed like the young version of Kelly?  

And the answer to that is "No," as Ed himself came to realize when he and Gordon had trouble keeping up with her at the nightclub simulation.  He realized (as 2420  Kelly had been telling him) that he wasn't the same man that 2413 Kelly dated and that he didn't want to be that man again.  That's why he finally let 2413 Kelly down by telling her that it wouldn't work out between them.

Edited April 25, 2019 by legaleagle53

[Pike Ludwell]

It was obvious Seth Macfarland is familiar with all the nerdy discussions about the ramifications of time travel.  I found that whole discussion sequence was quite humorous.

If the Kaylons are going to be pursuing them every whipstitch and they don't have the power to defeat the Kaylons, they ought to just go back to earth and lay low till a plan is figured out. They barely escaped them this time.

[CaptainE]

On 4/22/2019 at 6:37 PM, tv-talk said:

What does that mean? Women are just as prone as men to hold onto relationships they should let go, that is not a gender issue. 

Yeah right.  All the same.

[Ottis]

On 4/23/2019 at 3:26 PM, ketose said:

According to the Orville bible, (AKA Next Generation) captains can date senior officers. Picard dated the head of Stellar Cartography for an episode. 

Did the head of stellar cartography report directly to Picard? I suspect no, but don't actually know. If she didn't, them dating would be awkward for others, and dangerous for Picard, but it's much different than Ed and Kelly.

On 4/24/2019 at 5:26 PM, Ceindreadh said:

And then they broke up after an away mission she was on went bad and he realized he wouldn’t be able to send her into danger again. 

And then there is that.

I would be super happy if we never had to talk about Ed and Kelly dating again. It's so unnecessary to the show.

[Biosynth]

Just for the record, I can totally keep up with 7 years ago me.  30 years ago me too probably.

[ganesh]

I might even have an edge on 7 years ago me because I know how to maintain better. I might have a longer recovery time the next day. 

[legaleagle53]

11 hours ago, Biosynth said:

Just for the record, I can totally keep up with 7 years ago me.  30 years ago me too probably.

There isn't that much of a difference between 2012 me and 2019 me. We both would have about the same energy level. Now, 1989 me, that's a DIFFERENT story!

[Danielg342]

On 4/22/2019 at 9:57 AM, Ottis said:

Seth should not be the lead

I have a feeling FOX forced that upon him. The show began with no one they could use to "sell" the show except Seth McFarlane so Seth was thrust into the role. I do think as the series has progressed Seth has, in practice, relinquished the "lead" role and let his other cast members shine. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe Seth has been a true lead in any episode this season, and none arguably since "Cupid's Dagger", which was really the Rob Lowe show anyway.

[nokat]

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 2:10 PM, Chaos Theory said:

It’s hard to tell.  Picard was a thinker not a fighter but he wasn’t exactly helpless in a fight.

But he has mostly moved on.  It just changes when a younger version of Kelly shows up who he hasn’t screwed over yet and who hasn’t screwed over him.  It’s not creepy really if more the “what would you do if you could do things over knowing now what you didn’t know then?”  But it’s the double edged sword.  Would current version of Ed like the young version of Kelly?

Had this discussion with a man. Men want the woman they married twenty years ago, women want to change men into who they think they should have married. A generalization of course. I was hot and skinny twenty years ago, my husband would totally cheat on me with the younger me. 
 

[Gothish520]

On 4/22/2019 at 5:04 PM, Ottis said:

For starters, he is now her boss. And the only reason that is so is because she went out on a limb to get him this gig, and she was told fine, you keep an eye on him. He repays that by endlessly pining for her, and saying things like, "You know, we were great." And she says, again, "I'm past it." And he doesn't leave it alone. That's pretty creepy in my book. 

Wasn't Kelly the one who initiated their brief reconcilliation?

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 4/20/2019 at 5:08 PM, The Kings Foot said:

regarding making Kelly seem younger, remember it works the other way too.  Putting bulkier clothes on present day Kelly to make her seem "thicker". Giving her slightly harsher makeup.  Even posture works.   Older Kelly  was standing more rigidly and tended to raise her chin more.

Older Kelly did probably have more of a confident pose, but I did also notice in one scene that young Kelly was standing in a rather exaggerated sway-back pose, arms a bit toward her back, which gave her quite a "lift" in her chest. With the two of them standing face-to-face in that scene, the difference was subtle, but quite apparent.

I was also wondering whether they may have used one of those "instant face-lift" kits that rely on a sort of tape that pulls the skin up and back on your face and camouflages it behind the hair (which may have also had something to do with the wig they chose for her). They are supposed to be quite uncomfortable, but to actually do quite a bit toward smoothing and lifting the skin. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 4/22/2019 at 6:21 PM, rmontro said:

This is the problem with maintaining a close friendship with someone you are in love with.  I'm not sure he should get all the blame in screwing up the relationship though.  I know there were pheromones at play in Kelly's infidelity, but that still happened, and she bailed on her vows.  I'm not saying it's all her fault either, I'm saying it takes two to tango.

But if you get married and expect your partner to remain perfect forever, or else they will have "screwed up the relationship", I think you're in for a letdown.  Humans are going to make mistakes.

I'm not entirely convinced there were pheromones involved the first time anyway. Didn't they leave that question with a "maybe"?

Thing is, that when Ed walked in on Kelly with Darulio, her reaction was more that of justifying her actions because of Ed's neglect rather than her just having fallen in instant and uncontrollable love/ lust. I don't really recall the conversation that first time around centering on suddenly realizing they were in love, in the same way that the pheromones seemed to affect everyone exposed to them the second time. 

I could just be misremembering, though. I don't have the ambition to go back and watch again.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 4/23/2019 at 4:17 PM, Ottis said:

Many of you are probably too young to remember this, but you know who McFarland is? Rich Little. Little was an impressionist and his actual face and voice was forgettable.

To be honest, given that I was a younger teenager and totally not into politics during Rich Little's heydey, his face is pretty much what I picture to this day when anything about Richard Nixon comes up! I don't recall his actual voice, though.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 6/7/2022 at 10:45 AM, Jynnan tonnix said:

I'm not entirely convinced there were pheromones involved the first time anyway. Didn't they leave that question with a "maybe"?

In whichever episode it was where Darulio returns, his hormones led Ed to fall deeply for him, and made Yaphit irresistible to Claire, who previously found him disgusting. When asked point blank whether it was his hormones that made Kelly cheat. Darulio was like "Maybe?" But I think it fairly clear that the hormones were at large part to blame. 

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In whichever episode it was where Darulio returns, his hormones led Ed to fall deeply for him, and made Yaphit irresistible to Claire, who previously found him disgusting. When asked point blank whether it was his hormones that made Kelly cheat. Darulio was like "Maybe?" But I think it fairly clear that the hormones were at large part to blame. 

From 1.9 Cupid's Dagger:

• Darulio, wait. A year ago, when we met...Were you in heat then?

• Maybe.

I didn't even remember Darulio was played by frickin' Rob Lowe, whose timeless attractiveness is jokingly considered to have Dorian Gray properties, heh.

But I vaguely recall I thought at the time that the "maybe" was supposed to imply that there was a genuine attraction between them.

But now I'm thinking that if they had cast someone else——
such as Wayne Knight who was cast in similar roles such as
     Officer Don on 3rd Rock from the Sun, and
     Rick on Hot in Cleveland
——maybe I (and other viewers?) would have been more inclined to think Darulio's "maybe" remark was more akin to an alibi to protect himself from being accused of having deliberately roofied Kelly and/or Ed with his pheromones for his own gain.

Or maybe viewers who don't find Rob Lowe attractive (with or without blue face) thought that anyway: that Darulio just said "maybe" to hedge his bets against a MeToo moment.

But Rob Lowe always seems like a good guy and husband in interviews, so my interpretation was definitely colored, and not by blue makeup.

[Jynnan tonnix]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

From 1.9 Cupid's Dagger:

• Darulio, wait. A year ago, when we met...Were you in heat then?

• Maybe.

I didn't even remember Darulio was played by frickin' Rob Lowe, whose timeless attractiveness is jokingly considered to have Dorian Gray properties, heh.

But I vaguely recall I thought at the time that the "maybe" was supposed to imply that there was a genuine attraction between them.

But now I'm thinking that if they had cast someone else——
such as Wayne Knight who was cast in similar roles such as
     Officer Don on 3rd Rock from the Sun, and
     Rick on Hot in Cleveland
——maybe I (and other viewers?) would have been more inclined to think Darulio's "maybe" remark was more akin to an alibi to protect himself from being accused of having deliberately roofied Kelly and/or Ed with his pheromones for his own gain.

Or maybe viewers who don't find Rob Lowe attractive (with or without blue face) thought that anyway: that Darulio just said "maybe" to hedge his bets against a MeToo moment.

But Rob Lowe always seems like a good guy and husband in interviews, so my interpretation was definitely colored, and not by blue makeup.

Rob Lowe's face, to me, has always had this strange sort of ridiculously good looking quality that's just off-kilter enough that it feels as though someone set out to build a matinee idol, but went a bit overboard. Subjectively, I can tell he's good looking, but he's not even remotely my "type". I will give him a lot of credit, though, if he has remained a decent, down to earth guy.

I do agree with your thought that the "maybe" could be read a number of ways. I just tend to be really literal and take people (or characters) at their word rather than reading too much into motivations.

[Danielg342]

4 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I do agree with your thought that the "maybe" could be read a number of ways. I just tend to be really literal and take people (or characters) at their word rather than reading too much into motivations.

They tried with "Cupid's Dagger" to create a species (the Retepsians) where the concept of the act of sex was similar to the act of saying "hello" to someone- i.e., it's just something "everyone does and it's no big deal". The episode danced around the idea of whether or not Darulio knew he was in heat and could thus spread his pheromones- he knowingly interacted with Kelly and Ed (and had sex with both) but he didn't know Yaphit also got affected by his pheromones as well.

So, as it relates to Kelly, my guess is that Seth McFarlane was going for an ambiguous scenario where we're wondering if Kelly was willingly cheating on Ed or- as I'm sure McFarlane intended to express- has an "out" and only cheated on Ed because she was literally under Darulio's spell, akin to as if she had hooked up with another person after drinking a lot of alcohol.

Make that of what you will.

(As an aside- and not to get off-topic too much- but I think many of the issues related to "Cupid's Dagger" could have been resolved if the episode- or another episode like it- was set in Retepsia instead of sending Darulio on his own to the Orville. That way the show could make clearer just how Retepsians treat sex and maybe make the depictions of Retepsian pheromones less problematic. Having Darulio on his own means we have to take at his word that he can't control his sexual urges, which led to all kinds of problematic interpretations. Showing other Retepsians could have clarified things in ways the writers likely intended)