Season 5: Speculation

[Maximum Taco]

Sam still has that dagger.  What if he places it in Jon's funeral pyre? What if he also then blows the horn that Jon found with the dragon glass and gave to him?  The magical elements of dragon glass have been established on the show and in the books.  And the show included the discovery of the items in the same fashion it happened in the books.  

 

If this is so, then Ghost persistently led Jon to discover his own salvation.  I kind of dig that.

 

That horn is broken IIRC, Jon already tried to sound it and he had no luck.

 

Also in the books Sam takes the horn with him to Oldtown, and the show also seems like it is sending Sam to Oldtown based on the foreshadowing in the most recent episode. Doesn't seem like he'll be able to do anything at Jon's funeral.

[Haleth]

I'm thinking as far as the show goes that Jon won't die at all.  The show runners seem averse to resurrection storylines.  I'm not sure what the point of including Beric was, other than to foreshadow the Mountain's return, but even in this case Qyburn never said the Mtn was dead dead, only mostly dead.  And of course there is no Stoneheart.  I think Jon will lay in a coma for a while, maybe until Mel can come back to heal him.

 

Any speculation on what the final shot for this season will be?  I am 100% positive it will be Dany flying off on Drogon.  The show runners loooove ending on a spectacular Dany scene.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Haleth

[nksarmi]

I have been thinking that Jon might not even get stabbed or if he does - it won't be like it was in the books.  I think it honestly depends on what Jon's intended story is in the next book/for the rest of the series....

 

If Jon is suppose to lose control of the night's watch, consider himself free of his vow because he "died" and then go fight beside Stannis, then we might see him by Stannis' side as Jon Stark as early as the last episode of this season. 

 

On the other hand, if Jon is supposed to survive the stabbing and regain control of the night's watch just in time to fend off an initial attack by the white walkers and then regain his status as Lord Commander because as it turns out - he was right about needing the wildlings all along - then the show might keep the stabbing but hint at how he is going to survive in the last episode.

 

Finally, if Jon is in fact suppose to be AA reborn, then I think something about the episode will hint to how he will be reborn (and they'll do the reveal that he is a Targ before the season ends).  So they might stab him, but they'll set it up so that his resurrection is foreshadowed.  As some have said, it will be clear that the actor is still working as soon as they start filming so the show won't have as much "oh crap, did he really just kill Jon Snow?" tension for a cliffhanger.

 

Haleth - I want to say the final shot will be some back and forth between Dany and Drogo and Jon and Ghost.

[WalterWhiteWalker]

Has Azor Ahai / TPWWP been referenced in the show at all? Maybe when Renly called Stannis a ham?

[Holmbo]

Yes I think what the show has included so far will have to be the explanation. So I think it will be a combination of Jon warging into ghost and Melisandre coming back to the wall to revive his body. Possibly Bran will be in it too if it happens next season. He could guide Jon out from the wolf body maybe.

[Haleth]

I wonder if we'll even see Stannis again this season. Having him march off toward the horizon is kind of the end of his story for now, at least until winter gets there. (Did you hear? Winter is coming.). Honestly, the show better start saving its CGI budget for massive blizzards next season.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Haleth

[cambridgeguy]

Stannis arriving at Winterfell would be a great way to end the season if they're looking for an epic battle.  He's not that far away (relatively speaking) so it seems odd to drop him until next season.

Edited May 12, 2015 by cambridgeguy

[kivara]

Are there any spoilers of Littlefinger surviving next episode or this season?

I mean he proved that he is too stupid to live by giving up both of his pawns and is not really needed anymore. Also, the sparrows in KL might not like the brothel owner and / or somebody might suggest his connections to Sansa.

Edited May 13, 2015 by kivara

[Maximum Taco]

Are there any spoilers of Littlefinger surviving next episode or this season?

I mean he proved that he is too stupid to live by giving up both of his pawns and is not really needed anymore. Also, the sparrows in KL might not like the brothel owner and / or somebody might suggest his connections to Sansa.

 

How do you know he's not really needed?

 

He's gone off book so we have no idea where his story goes from here. I doubt he'll die though, the show needs villains.

[Lady S.]

Has Azor Ahai / TPWWP been referenced in the show at all? Maybe when Renly called Stannis a ham?

No, Mel's only ever called Stan "the Lord's chosen", with no elaboration on the prophecy.

[Dev F]

No, Mel's only ever called Stan "the Lord's chosen", with no elaboration on the prophecy.

 

She actually does quote a little bit of the AA prophecy, telling Renly that Stannis is "the Lord's chosen, born amidst salt and smoke." (Renly's response: "Is he a ham?")

[Lady S.]

Yeah, but born amidst salt and smoke means nothing without context, and I really think it's too late now to finally reveal the rest of the prophecy, the last chance was with Aemon and Stan in the same building where Aemon could have identified Stan as a false PtwP and told Sam he believed it was Dany. Now I'm predicting Aemon dies by ep 7 (when fat pink mast is rumored to happen), since they've been telegraphing Aemon's failing health in both both 5.03 and 5.05. He'll probably go out without ever revealing how any prophecies of chosen heroes went.

[Advance35]

I wonder if we'll even see Stannis again this season. Having him march off toward the horizon is kind of the end of his story for now, at least until winter gets there. (Did you hear? Winter is coming.). Honestly, the show better start saving its CGI budget for massive blizzards next season.

 

I think the battle of Winterfell is happening THIS season.   He left for Winterfell and battle with the Boltons in Episode 5, I think he'll be at Winterfell by Episode 8.   Maybe for a big Episode 9 Battle.   In the trailer for the season it looked like Selyse was kneeling down or crawling in a really bad blizzard, and it looked like Brienne and Pod were in the same Blizzard at another point of the trailer.

 

I think the whole North storyline will climax this year and set all the characters on road to their next phase in the story, IF they survive.

[Dev F]

Yeah, but born amidst salt and smoke means nothing without context, and I really think it's too late now to finally reveal the rest of the prophecy

 

Did the books actually quote some specific prophecy in full at some point? I remember it being parceled out in dribs and drabs there too. And in the show, in addition to the "salt and smoke" thing, Melisandre has also mentioned Lightbringer, the bleeding stars, and Stannis's role in the coming winter. The only major part that hasn't been mentioned is Nissa Nissa (though she is mentioned in the supplemental material on the Blu-ray).

 

the last chance was with Aemon and Stan in the same building where Aemon could have identified Stan as a false PtwP and told Sam he believed it was Dany

 

The Prince That Was Promised is a different prophecy from Azor Ahai, isn't it? It's possible they cut the PTWP stuff but not the stuff about AA.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Dev F

[Maximum Taco]

The Prince That Was Promised is a different prophecy from Azor Ahai, isn't it? It's possible they cut the PTWP stuff but not the stuff about AA.

 

Maybe?

 

Meli seems to talk about them interchangably in the books. Although she seems to prefer to call him Azor Ahai.

 

For instance when she is talking about the coming war, Aemon says she is talking about the war for the dawn and asks "where is the prince that was promised?"

 

Mel then indicates that it is Stannis, and calls him Azor Ahai. She never refers to him as the PTWP, but by answering Aemon's question she is either indicating she believes he is the PTWP or is trying to trick Aemon (or others) with clever wording.

 

Here's the appropriate passage from Samwell V in ASOS

 

But all of the seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

 

"He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the skyto herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes"

 

In the same chapter Aemon also accepts the fact that the PTWP should have a sword of fire (which is a part of Azor Ahai's prophecy and not explicitly mentioned in the PTWP prophecy) but thinks Stannis' does not meet the requirements because it gives off no heat.

 

In AFFC Samwell mentions the PTWP (but NOT AA) and Marwyn echoes back the lines about salt and smoke and the bleeding star.

 

Also later on in ADWD the red priest Benarro mentions that AA is also "born amidst salt and smoke." But he makes no mention of the PTWP. 

 

So it seems pretty likely that AA and the PTWP are the same guy (or girl), especially since aspects of their prophecies are similar. Specifically both are said to be born amidst salt and smoke and both are heralded by the coming of a red/bleeding star.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

Is anybody else super happy that the show is going to include Hardhome and that it's supposedly one of the more impressive new sets this season? I thought that was some of the most chilling stuff in the entire series so I hope the show doesn't let me down as far as making it scary. I want to see the dead things in the water. Apart from the way they look I've really enjoyed the three big scenes we've had that include the Others and am keeping my fingers crossed that this will be even better than the scene with the Night's King. 

[GreyBunny]

^ I agree, Hardhome was super creepy in the books because much of it was left up to our imaginations.  Well done.  I hope we get to see a lot of dead things in the water and on land, I want the seriousness of the situation to really hit home.  The White Walkers haven't been enough of a threat for a while.

[benteen]

Yes, I want to see dead stuff in the water.

 

I mentioned this before but I really do think we missed a potential great scene where Stannis "shows" Aemon the sword.

[Dev F]

Meli seems to talk about them interchangably in the books. Although she seems to prefer to call him Azor Ahai.

 

For instance when she is talking about the coming war, Aemon says she is talking about the war for the dawn and asks "where is the prince that was promised?"

 

Mel then indicates that it is Stannis, and calls him Azor Ahai. She never refers to him as the PTWP, but by answering Aemon's question she is either indicating she believes he is the PTWP or is trying to trick Aemon (or others) with clever wording.

 

My assumption was that there are two separate prophecies, one about Azor Ahai that the followers of R'hllor believe, and one about the Prince That Was Promised that the Targaryens believe, and that there's some overlap that suggests they might actually be the same person.

 

In any event, it's entirely possible that the showrunners have decided not to include the "Targaryans believe in the Prince That Was Promised" story thread while still including the "followers of R'hllor believe in Azor Ahai" part. That would be in keeping with their general tendency toward combining and streamlining complex elements from the novels.

[Lady S.]

Did the books actually quote some specific prophecy in full at some point? I remember it being parceled out in dribs and drabs there too. And in the show, in addition to the "salt and smoke" thing, Melisandre has also mentioned Lightbringer, the bleeding stars, and Stannis's role in the coming winter. The only major part that hasn't been mentioned is Nissa Nissa (though she is mentioned in the supplemental material on the Blu-ray).

 

 

The Prince That Was Promised is a different prophecy from Azor Ahai, isn't it? It's possible they cut the PTWP stuff but not the stuff about AA.

Yes, the full Azor Ahai tale is in Davos's first Clash PoV. The PtwP may well be different, but that was the one doled out in scraps, not AA. I believe Aemon is the first one to bring up the PtwP in that scene with Stan, it's not clear if Mel even knows what he means because her response is basically "yep, there's your prince, prophesied hero, I already found him". I think the AA/PtwP issue is probably just an Westeros vs. Essos varying traditions thing, as in the Holy R'hllorers and the Targs heard the same prophecy in different languages (I think the Ghost of High Heart aka Jenny of Oldstones's dwarf woods witch was the original source for the PtwP, right?) and with some details appearing in one but not the other due to the vast cultural distance between Westeros and Asshai. Anyway, that's why I think Mel's version of the prophecy is long overdue, the show made a deliberate cut to any mention in Clash or Storm so I doubt they're going to inclede Aemon's version now, but we can't know for sure until he croaks.

 

Anyways, I stopped in here to say looks like YarAsha is making another appearance after all. (If the WotW mods find something credible, then it sounds pretty good to me.)

Edited May 15, 2015 by Lady S.

[Notwisconsin]

As to the "Tyrion meets Dany "(at last!) arc, I was wondering if they're going to get some distance into the Winds of Winter in the last three episodes, or are going to ditch the last two books completely and do something completely different? After all, GRRM has given D&D the basic outline for the last two books. The ninth episode is called A Dance of Dragons, so it could be there might be a mashup of the plots from WoW and the end of DoD. It might be nice if someone did a novelization of the scripts like they did with the later James Bond movies.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Notwisconsin

[Saje]

I'm not sure where to put this but I'd like to see them do the kind of thing Pixar does, and correct me if they do these but I just haven't seen them...

 

I want them to make little 'side stories' of some of the minor characters and release them on youtube or even HBO during hiatus. I want to see the agency, the fear, the toil, and the happy moments of the small folk, of the minor lords/ladies, or the cattle wranglers or farmers. I want to see the Braavosi training like Syrio Forel went through, follow a week in the life of a boy who gets conscripted to The Wall, etc...

 

When you think about it there is SO MUCH that they aren't showing us that doesn't have to stick with the books. I want more.

[benteen]

I'd love to see Game of Thrones do webisodes.  I know True Blood did that at least once.  Breaking Bad did several of them as well.

[Greta]

Webisodes are a great idea.  I've always thought that if HBO did prequels like Robert's Rebellion or the Harrenhall tourney, the main characters should be different, smallfolk and/or other non-Great Houses with what we think of as the high points of the stories (i.e. what matters to the ASOIAF arcs) being tangential.  Just to plunge the fanboy idiots lurking in certain corners of the internet into total despair, I propose a Frey protagonist for at least one of the webisodes. 

 

I'm speculating that Sansa's Lady Stoneheart turn will be on Brienne.  She's just been given one more reason by Theon not to trust people who claim to be willing to help her. And, to be fair, she's actually got a better case against Brienne than Lady Stoneheart ever did. Show Brienne was in King's Landing at the same time as Sansa, walking about apparently freely, and did not even attempt to speak with Sansa, much less grab her and run.  She chose to spend that time bickering with Jaime to get him on board (and, again to be fair, finding a way to get Sansa out that didn't involve being run down by the Lannister army while attempting to reach the dubiously safe havens of the Eyrie or Tarth probably was a smarter course of action and one Jaime might have been able to help with if she could bring him around.)  When Brienne "confronted" Sansa's main captors she was courteous to Joffrey (which Sansa witnessed) and only got into it with Cersei at Cersei's instigation over, again, Jaime.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Greta

[Avaleigh]

I'd love to see Game of Thrones do webisodes.  I know True Blood did that at least once.  Breaking Bad did several of them as well.

I would be all over something like this. The show Big Love would do webisodes in between seasons. Sometimes they would explain events that happened before the show started and sometimes they'd be about things that were going in between seasons. I thought it really added to the show and it was the first time I'd seen it done until True Blood started doing it later. 

 

This isn't a show that works for giving characters blogs but there are one or two characters I wouldn't mind seeing journal entries from or even just general musings, being inside the head of so and so. There are definitely multiple times where I wish I could get the internalized thoughts of a character. In the most recent episode I felt that way with Jaime, Sansa, Theon, Cersei, Margaery, Olenna, etc. 

 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Robert's Rebellion is going to be its own series. HBO would definitely be open to keeping this gravy train running for as long as possible IMO so I think they'd be open to this. Of all of the prequel ideas I think tis probably has the best chance of happening.

 

Even more than Robert's Rebellion though I'd like to see a series based on the first dance with dragons. There is a lot of good stuff there and the character of Daemon seems like he could be a dream role for the right actor if he's written the right way. Rhaenyra and Helaena have that sort of potential as well IMO. Another thing that could be helpful as far as developing a prequel is that they don't really need to build any new sets for any of these stories. That alone has to be incredibly helpful. 

 

I can even see a prequel based around Aegon and his sisters but this one easily has the least chance of happening IMO. I find that particular takeover fascinating on every level though and then add in the mess with Rhaenys and Dorne--I feel like they could get two seasons out of Aegon and his sisters dealing with the seven kingdoms and a third season dealing with the fallout of the deaths of Rhaenys and eventually Aegon. 

[Elkins]

Brought over from the Episode Thread--
 

Stannis might be conflicted. Selyse, not so much. Look out Shireen!

You know, I was worried about that as well, but now I'm seriously beginning to wonder if we're being led down the garden path on this point.

Who wanted Shireen to come north to the Wall with the rest of her family?

 

Mel did.

Who absolutely did not want her daughter to come north? Who even told her daughter that she didn't want her to come?

 

That was Selyse.

Selyse scolds Shireen for fraternizing with Gilly. When Shireen objects that Gilly wouldn't harm her, Selyse pauses a moment. This strange expression settles on her face. "You have no idea what people will do," she then tells her daughter, her face as grim as death. "All your books, and you still don't know."

And in episode 4, there's that terribly foreboding interaction between Mel and Selyse. Selyse has yet again been beating herself up over having borne Stannis no sons, but "only deformity."

"Those scars mean nothing to the Lord of Light," Mel tells her. "Her father's the Lord's chosen king." She pauses, then looks meaningfully at Selyse. "And her father's blood runs through her veins."

And Selyse's response? She looks absolutely terrified, and then scurries off like a frightened rabbit.

 

A fragment of a scene in the season previews shows Selyse collapsing into the snow, an anguished expression on her face.

 

I'm starting to think that there may have been some deliberate misdirection going on here.

 

If either of Shireen's parents is a danger to her right now, I'm beginning to suspect that it's not Selyse at all.

[Avaleigh]

Elkins, I agree with everything you've said only I think that the parent Shireen has to fear is

Selyse and not Stannis.

 

Edited because it's good to get the names right lol.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Avaleigh

[FemmyV]

Interesting. I wouldn't have considered it that way, because Selyse almost makes a point if having no great value invested in Shireen. If you're right and it's Stannis's betrayal, he'll be sealing his doom.

[Constantinople]

I'm not saying Shireen is High Valyrian for briquette.

 

I'm just saying that the D of D & D also wrote the screenplay for Troy.

 

Although it wasn't in the movie, Agamemnon sacrificed his daughter to the gods when his forces ran into weather problems.

[Oscirus]

Time to have some fun.

 

Sadly, I think that Stannis is burning the shit out of his daughter. The only way that episode 4 scene with her makes sense is if he betrays her. Otherwise that scene was indulgent.

 

Ollie is stabbing the shit out of Jon.  Dude is dirty eyeballing the crap out of Jon every chance he gets.

 

 

For some reason I'm thinking that Dany leaves Mereen by hopping on her dragon, and Tyrion takes over for her while she's gone. Going a bit into season 6 spec, I suspect he'll do a better job then her and that will be the start of a rift between the two of them.

 

Now for some spec that's very unlikely to happen but is still fun to think about.

 

What if lady Oleanna takes over Kevan's storyline from the book? It would make sense if Tommen was the young boy that Littlefinger was referring to.  Plus it would be an interesting power play to have Oleanna running the country through Tommen while Cersei's in jail.

 

And in even crazier speculation what if her killer turns out to be Littlefinger instead of Varys?  It causes the chaos that  Littlefinger thrives on and it gets rid of his only co-conspirator to Joffrey's murder.

[Holmbo]

Sadly, I think that Stannis is burning the shit out of his daughter. The only way that episode 4 scene with her makes sense is if he betrays her. Otherwise that scene was indulgent.

Not necessary. I remember watching all those Jaime Tyrion scenes in season 4 thinking: we get it show, you want to make sure that their brotherly bond is absolutely clear before you destroy it. But they didn't.

And they've had all these bonding scenes with Misandei and Greyworm for almost two seasons now and neither of them have died yet.

So I don't think such a scene is necessarily for the purpose of giving us a gut punch later.

[Avaleigh]

Time to have some fun.

 

Sadly, I think that Stannis is burning the shit out of his daughter. The only way that episode 4 scene with her makes sense is if he betrays her. Otherwise that scene was indulgent.

 

Ollie is stabbing the shit out of Jon.  Dude is dirty eyeballing the crap out of Jon every chance he gets.

 

 

For some reason I'm thinking that Dany leaves Mereen by hopping on her dragon, and Tyrion takes over for her while she's gone. Going a bit into season 6 spec, I suspect he'll do a better job then her and that will be the start of a rift between the two of them.

 

Now for some spec that's very unlikely to happen but is still fun to think about.

 

What if lady Oleanna takes over Kevan's storyline from the book? It would make sense if Tommen was the young boy that Littlefinger was referring to.  Plus it would be an interesting power play to have Oleanna running the country through Tommen while Cersei's in jail.

 

And in even crazier speculation what if her killer turns out to be Littlefinger instead of Varys?  It causes the chaos that  Littlefinger thrives on and it gets rid of his only co-conspirator to Joffrey's murder.

Oh wow, I so want for this to happen. It makes so much sense. Pycelle and Kevan aren't going to feel like big losses especially with Kevan's presence being so muted on the show. He had one good line where he put Cersei in her place but apart from that I don't think Unsullied viewers are necessarily going to be all OMGWTF if/when Varys takes out Pycelle and Kevan. Taking out Kevan and Olenna though, that'll get a reaction. Hell, taking out all three works too. 

 

I love this speculation. I think it would be pretty exciting to see LF commit another murder with his own hands. I feel like he seemed pretty checked though when she told him that he'd be fucked if anything were to happen to her so at the moment I'm inclined to think that she's right but I still kind of hope this speculation ends up happening. 

 

I don't think that Stannis is going to burn Shireen. I actually had the opposite take on the scene with him and Shireen. I think that Stannis is going to die and that he won't be able to protect Shireen when shit starts to go down. I think Davos will be able to save Shireen in the nick of time. I thought that scene was establishing that Stannis has always been Shireen's protector so what's going to happen when she no longer has him around to do that?

 

The scene that made me most worried for Shireen was Selyse telling her that Shireen has "no idea" what people will do. That was chilling. 

 

I still frankly want an explanation for why they can't do another shadow baby or leech exercise. 

 

I agree with the speculation that Tyrion might somehow end up caring for a wounded Viserion I'm just not sure how it'll come about. However it happens I do think that Dany and Tyrion will return to Westeros on dragonback together. (Like Aegon and his sisters.) I'm not sure about how Rhaegal will get to Westeros but I'm guessing that maybe Bran will help with that. Either that or maybe Rhaegal might just be inclined to follow his sibs. 

 

Ollie has a lot of reasons to be mad. I still think it's lame that he seems to already be sword to the NW. How is it fair for a kid who was put in his position to not be allowed to have a wife and family if he wants to do that. There should be some option where men of the NW who aren't criminals when they join are allowed to just sign for x amount of years or something. 

 

I still think Jon did a crap job of explaining to the NW why it's important to come to an agreement with the wildlings. 

[Constantinople]

I don't think that Stannis is going to burn Shireen. I actually had the opposite take on the scene with him and Shireen. I think that Stannis is going to die and that he won't be able to protect Shireen when shit starts to go down.

 

In that case, I presume that whoever torches Shireen doesn't know that Stannis is dead, since there seems little point in Shireen fireworks if Stannis is already dead.

 

Though if by some freak chance Ramsay captured Shireen, I could see Ramsay turning her into a human candle on top of the Old Tower as a way to mock both Stannis and Sansa.

[Avaleigh]

Melisandre could know that Stannis is dead and want to use Shireen to bring him back. 

[nksarmi]

Oh wow, I so want for this to happen. It makes so much sense. Pycelle and Kevan aren't going to feel like big losses especially with Kevan's presence being so muted on the show. He had one good line where he put Cersei in her place but apart from that I don't think Unsullied viewers are necessarily going to be all OMGWTF if/when Varys takes out Pycelle and Kevan. Taking out Kevan and Olenna though, that'll get a reaction. Hell, taking out all three works too. 

 

I love this speculation. I think it would be pretty exciting to see LF commit another murder with his own hands. I feel like he seemed pretty checked though when she told him that he'd be fucked if anything were to happen to her so at the moment I'm inclined to think that she's right but I still kind of hope this speculation ends up happening. 

 

I don't think that Stannis is going to burn Shireen. I actually had the opposite take on the scene with him and Shireen. I think that Stannis is going to die and that he won't be able to protect Shireen when shit starts to go down. I think Davos will be able to save Shireen in the nick of time. I thought that scene was establishing that Stannis has always been Shireen's protector so what's going to happen when she no longer has him around to do that?

 

The scene that made me most worried for Shireen was Selyse telling her that Shireen has "no idea" what people will do. That was chilling. 

 

I still frankly want an explanation for why they can't do another shadow baby or leech exercise. 

 

I agree with the speculation that Tyrion might somehow end up caring for a wounded Viserion I'm just not sure how it'll come about. However it happens I do think that Dany and Tyrion will return to Westeros on dragonback together. (Like Aegon and his sisters.) I'm not sure about how Rhaegal will get to Westeros but I'm guessing that maybe Bran will help with that. Either that or maybe Rhaegal might just be inclined to follow his sibs. 

 

Ollie has a lot of reasons to be mad. I still think it's lame that he seems to already be sword to the NW. How is it fair for a kid who was put in his position to not be allowed to have a wife and family if he wants to do that. There should be some option where men of the NW who aren't criminals when they join are allowed to just sign for x amount of years or something. 

 

I still think Jon did a crap job of explaining to the NW why it's important to come to an agreement with the wildlings. 

 

I think there are a couple of ways they can go with what happens next with Tommen....

 

1. I think the most sinister direction the show could go with this (and what GRRM could do in the next book since Kevin is dead) is have the High Sparrow try to rule through Tommen - perhaps with the promise of giving him back his bride.  I've also been wondering if part of the reason they had them consummate the marriage is so that Marg can get pregnant which could also give the HS reason to give her the Mother's Mercy.

 

2. I think Kevin could still return to get killed by Varys' and/or his spies.  I half expect Varys to show up in Meereen and half expect to see him in the last episode of the season in KL murdering Kevin.  Anyway, I don't know how much good Kevin could do in three episodes, BUT I do see the imprisonment of Cersei as something that would motivate him to return to guide Tommen.

 

3. Olenna and Littlefinger could stay in KL and try to guide Tommen with LF betraying Olenna as described above.  I'm not sure that fits with other speculation that he will head North with Vale soldiers to save Sansa, but it still could happen.

 

4. Things could get so bad in KL that those accusations of Tommen being an abomination spread and he is forced to flee the capitol or they straight up murder him.  I could see this as GRRM's next move in the books and if you combined it with Cersei demanding trial by combat with frankenmountain and winning - it could definitely lead to Cersei burning KL's to the ground like many of us think she will. 

 

Now some of these could be combined and any of them could stretch from season five into season six, but I definitely think 1 or 4 is where we are ultimately heading with the FM plot.

 

Regarding Shirleen - I don't know how much of this is a hope and how much of it is truly setup by the show, but I do NOT think Shirleen is going to burn OR that Stannis is going to ok it.  What I do think is going to happen is some variation of the following:

 

1. Stannis sends Shirleen away with Davos and loses the battle of Winterfell because no sacrifice is made and maybe dies.

2. Stannis sends Mel away because she attempts to burn Shirleen, Mel goes back to the Wall to focus on Jon, and Stannis loses the battle and maybe dies.

3. Stannis sends Mel away and actually wins giving him the motivation to separate himself from her and her Lord of Light (which could be his downfall later).

 

But the bottom line is that I don't believe Stannis is going to give up his daughter - I believe his is being setup to completely be the opposite of Roose who might give up Ramsey if he needs to in order to remain in power.

 

Regarding the end of the season with Dany and Drago - I've definitely been speculating on how this could play out.  I think we could end up with Jorah and Tyrion in or near the pits still when all hell breaks loose.  Drago might save Dany, but I think Tyrion and Jorah might save/free the chained up dragons and perhaps even ride one of them out of the city to catch up with wherever Drago took Dany.  Then I think Dany will turn her dragons back on Meereen so that all who want to join her can leave and she'll leave the city to whatever befalls them.  Conversely, Dany might escape alone putting Tyrion, Jorah, and all who were loyal to Dany in the dungeons and the Old Maesters take over the city again, but the catch is that Tyrion can tame the dragons and they all escape together to catch up with Dany while leaving Meereen in ruins.

[Avaleigh]

I actually agree that Cersei is going to attempt to burn King's Landing to the ground. 

 

What I'm wrestling with is the idea of Cersei burning KL (or maybe just the Red Keep) and Tommen then being turned into a king on the run. Tywin talks about how becoming a monarch on the run is one of the ultimate fuck ups and then there are all of the comments about how much Cersei prefers the Rock to KL anyway. I can totally see her just picking up and fleeing to Casterly Rock with Tommen. What doesn't work for me about this scenario is how Jaime would fit in. I think it makes sense for Jaime to kill Cersei if she's going to threaten to burn KL to the ground because there's the parallel with Aerys. I suppose he could kill her as she's burning Casterly Rock but that doesn't quite have the same emotional impact IMO. It's not a dealbreaker it just doesn't feel quite right especially since we've spent no time at the Rock as of yet. 

 

What I'm most concerned about in terms of Dany riding and taming Drogon is that moment where Dany knows that if she turns away that Drogon will kill her. I think that's going to be a tough moment to convey without dialogue. That was a large part of what made the moment so great for me. She's looking into the eyes of hell and she basically knows that she'll be fucked if she so much as blinks. I really hope it doesn't come across as easy for her to Unsullied viewers.

 

On of the reasons why I wanted to have Quentyn included was so that the Unsullied audiences could see an example of dragon tamin gone wrong. Not only is it dragon taming gone wrong but here's somebody who has a few drops of Targaryen blood only it doesn't help in this cast. The blood *is* a part of it IMO but it isn't the only thing that helps make somebody into a dragonrider. 

[nksarmi]

The inclusion of Quentyn annoyed me in its execution in the book because I think a suitor from Dorne should have made book Dany sit up and pay attention.  She actually has allies in Westerous who WANT her back, but she kind of laughs it off because she's already married and settled in Meereen.  And it was just this moment where my support for her taking the Iron Throne broke and instead I got really, really interested in Jon C and Aegon.  NOTE: I don't care that Dany was settled and happy in Meereen because she owes Westerous nothing.  But I no longer cared about her story at all and frankly, only getting Tyrion and Jorah to her on the show has made me at least somewhat interested in what happens next.

 

Anyway, without Jon C and Aegon on the show, I'm kind of pissed that the author gave me someone to care about that might not even matter in the long run.  The show has made me care about Stannis which is why I'm stubbornly insisting that he won't burn Shirleen lol.  But I just don't see Stannis living to the end of this tale - I'm not even sure he will survive season 5. 

 

So in the books, I have no idea who I'm supposed to care about - I hope the show gives me more to look forward to.

 

In regards to Tommen, Cersei, and Jamie - what I see the show setting up is this.... Tommen is going to be either disposed, controlled by the FM, or flat out killed.  This is going to put Jamie on the path of supporting a Dorne queen making for Marcella (I cannot let go of this plot lol).  I think this will come to a head in season six with Jamie marching on KL to crown Marcella and end the FM with him having to stop Cersei from burning KL (talking her down) and Marcella will become queen.  Then Cersei could live to see all of her children sit the Iron Throne if this plot plays out.  She could even regain her composure enough to help guide Marcella (have we ever wondered if SHE was the YMBQ?). Then some other threat (Euron/Iron Born maybe?) could take Marcella's life and Cersei falls into straight up madness (and actually does burn KL?) and Jamie has to kill her?

[benteen]

Oh wow, I so want for this to happen. It makes so much sense. Pycelle and Kevan aren't going to feel like big losses especially with Kevan's presence being so muted on the show. He had one good line where he put Cersei in her place but apart from that I don't think Unsullied viewers are necessarily going to be all OMGWTF if/when Varys takes out Pycelle and Kevan. Taking out Kevan and Olenna though, that'll get a reaction. Hell, taking out all three works too. 

 

I love this speculation. I think it would be pretty exciting to see LF commit another murder with his own hands. I feel like he seemed pretty checked though when she told him that he'd be fucked if anything were to happen to her so at the moment I'm inclined to think that she's right but I still kind of hope this speculation ends up happening. 

 

I don't think that Stannis is going to burn Shireen. I actually had the opposite take on the scene with him and Shireen. I think that Stannis is going to die and that he won't be able to protect Shireen when shit starts to go down. I think Davos will be able to save Shireen in the nick of time. I thought that scene was establishing that Stannis has always been Shireen's protector so what's going to happen when she no longer has him around to do that?

 

The scene that made me most worried for Shireen was Selyse telling her that Shireen has "no idea" what people will do. That was chilling. 

 

I still frankly want an explanation for why they can't do another shadow baby or leech exercise. 

 

I agree with the speculation that Tyrion might somehow end up caring for a wounded Viserion I'm just not sure how it'll come about. However it happens I do think that Dany and Tyrion will return to Westeros on dragonback together. (Like Aegon and his sisters.) I'm not sure about how Rhaegal will get to Westeros but I'm guessing that maybe Bran will help with that. Either that or maybe Rhaegal might just be inclined to follow his sibs. 

 

Ollie has a lot of reasons to be mad. I still think it's lame that he seems to already be sword to the NW. How is it fair for a kid who was put in his position to not be allowed to have a wife and family if he wants to do that. There should be some option where men of the NW who aren't criminals when they join are allowed to just sign for x amount of years or something. 

 

I still think Jon did a crap job of explaining to the NW why it's important to come to an agreement with the wildlings. 

 

Jon has always done a crap job of explaining the agreement with the Wildlings.  He should absolutely be hammering home the point that without them, they're dead.  They don't need to be fighting wights of Wildlings and giants.

 

I've been speculating that Olenna will likely become Tommen's puppet master with Cersei out of the way.  Never considered her being the one who gets killed in Kevan's place but I think that would totally work on the show.  I still think it would be by Varys though.  Killing Olenna would be the absolute death blow to House Tyrell and most likely would cut off the food supply to King's Landing.

[Avaleigh]

I've been speculating that Olenna will likely become Tommen's puppet master with Cersei out of the way.  Never considered her being the one who gets killed in Kevan's place but I think that would totally work on the show.  I still think it would be by Varys though.  Killing Olenna would be the absolute death blow to House Tyrell and most likely would cut off the food supply to King's Landing.

So then this has to happen, right? If I'm Varys and I'm trying to cause maximum chaos then I know I'm going to get more out of turning a crossbow on Olenna than on Pycelle. 

[Amtosbm]

I haven't seen them posted here yet but a couple of days ago WOTW pics from the next episode up:

http://watchersonthewall.com/photos-released-from-game-of-thrones-season-5-episode-8-hardhome/#more-33659

 

Apparently the scenes in Hardhome are supposed to be about twenty minutes long.  I am actually getting really excited for this episode.

 

 

It would be nice if the Wilding chieftess turned out to be our substitute Val. I want Jon to be challenged by some new players.

 

I do think this means we are not getting the Ice Battle this year.

 

[Avaleigh]

It seems like she might be a kind of Val. I also think it was very deliberate choice to not give the actress red or blonde hair. 

[Avaleigh]

In fact, I'm now wondering if Olenna's death at the hands of Varys might now trigger some unexpected consequences for Littlefinger. I would love to see him forced into tap dancing his way out of that situation.  

 

The inclusion of Quentyn annoyed me in its execution in the book because I think a suitor from Dorne should have made book Dany sit up and pay attention.  She actually has allies in Westerous who WANT her back, but she kind of laughs it off because she's already married and settled in Meereen.

This was so frustrating. Not only does she basically laugh the guy off but she doesn't even both to talk to him or ask him questions about Westeros. Dany is nowhere near interested enough in her homeland IMO. It's one thing if she just doesn't care because she has not interest in going there but since she wants to rule there one day you'd think she'd be over the moon about making these sorts of contacts and learning as much as she can. 

[Unknown poster]

In fact, I'm now wondering if Olenna's death at the hands of Varys might now trigger some unexpected consequences for Littlefinger. I would love to see him forced into tap dancing his way out of that situation.  

 

This was so frustrating. Not only does she basically laugh the guy off but she doesn't even both to talk to him or ask him questions about Westeros. Dany is nowhere near interested enough in her homeland IMO. It's one thing if she just doesn't care because she has not interest in going there but since she wants to rule there one day you'd think she'd be over the moon about making these sorts of contacts and learning as much as she can.

To make matters worse, I got the distinct impression that a large part of her reasoning for dismissing Quentyn out of hand, was because he wasn't handsome. It was kind of a "hmmm, an alliance with one of the great houses of Westeros? 50K soldiers to add to my own army? Nah, not worth it. This guy isn't easy on the eyes." Kind of thing.

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, Barristan makes it seem like Quentyn would have had a shot if he'd been good looking like Gerris Drinkwater. I don't even think Dany is married yet when Quentyn finally rolls into town. 

[nksarmi]

Oh my word, remembering Dany's flat out rejection of Quentyn is making me so glad that didn't include it in the show.  I like Dany and if it pissed me off, I can only imagine what people would think who don't particularly care for her.  No one would want her to take the Iron Throne anymore.

[Paradigm14]

Ollie has a lot of reasons to be mad. I still think it's lame that he seems to already be sword to the NW. How is it fair for a kid who was put in his position to not be allowed to have a wife and family if he wants to do that. There should be some option where men of the NW who aren't criminals when they join are allowed to just sign for x amount of years or something. 

 

I agree that no one under 18 should be allowed to make a perm commitment to the Night's Watch. I'd think once he'd recovered his senses from his grief, he might actually consider continuing his family.

 

I thought several Brothers had been at the "battle" of the Fist, so there would be great awareness of the threat. It seems that they've dropped that issue for so long that no one remembers it but Jon and Sam.

[benteen]

The problem with Olly is that he has nowhere to go.  Having lost his family and his entire village the way he has, it's realistic that he would latch onto the Watch as strongly as he had.  He has no family left, is likely illiterate and likely hasn't ventured further than the isolated North that he grew up in.  I do agree though, if you're not of a certain age you shouldn't have to be held by the Oath of the Night's Watch.  But I don't think Olly feels he has any other future except the Watch.

Edited May 31, 2015 by benteen

[paigow]

So then this has to happen, right? If I'm Varys and I'm trying to cause maximum chaos then I know I'm going to get more out of turning a crossbow on Olenna than on Pycelle. 

Does Show!Varys have access to a wormhole? Otherwise, dude is not killing anybody in Westeros this season. He is probably still angrily hunting for Tyrion in brothels all around Volantis.

[Avaleigh]

We haven't seen Varys in awhile. He's has enough time to make it back to KL if the story requires it. 

[benteen]

I imagine Varys will still pop up at the end of the season.  He's not going to disappear for no reason, especially when he's still very much involved in the game of thrones.