S02.E05: The Ways of the Dead

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Steeped in Cairo's history, Shadow learns the ways of the dead with the help of Mr. Ibis and Mr. Nancy; in New Orleans, Mad Sweeney introduces Laura to old friends who share their world of voodoo healing.

 

Airing Sunday, April 7, 2019. Please note, the program may be made available early that day on streaming platforms by Starz, and it is allowed to talk about it in topic. Entering the topic may spoil you. Thank you!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I can't lie. I'd enjoy an entire episode of Mads Sweeney stumbling drunk around New Orleans yelling at statues.

[WatchrTina]

I'm a big fan of STARZ.  I will be forever grateful to them for bringing the "Outlander" series of novels to the screen.  During Outlander's run I get up on Sunday, watch an episode on-demand, then watch it again, taking notes, then I post here about it and read and react to the other comments.  And then I watch it a third time (rinse and repeat). I just love what STARZ has done with that show.

So I was totally psyched when I heard STARZ was bringing American Gods to the screen.  I looked forward to "sacrificing" my Sundays once again. I couldn't wait to do a deep dive into its interpretation of a wonderfully complicated and deeply weird book that I love.  And Season One was everything I hoped it would be.

But now?  Damn.  I hated the last episode and I hate this one too. I canNOT figure out what is going on.  Is Shadow possessed by the spirit of a lynched man . . . but only until he delivers a eulogy?  Did someone just suggest that Mr. Jacquel & Mr. Ibis are actually secretly PROMOTING violence against black people, particularly young black men, because they need the business (or maybe because they can tap into those deaths as a kind of "sacrifice" to them that keeps them going?)   Or is the culprit the spirit of Will James who cursed his own people?  Was the parallel to a "self-loathing Jew" obliquely referenced as an explanation for his actions?  And why is Bilquis even THERE?  I've already forgotten who that young black woman is (the one Bilquis seems to be stalking.)

This show used to be fun to watch.  Now I constantly find myself being taken out of the show by its troubling imagery.  For example -- back in Season 1, when Shadow was nearly lynched by Technical Boy's henchmen I found it deeply troubling to watch that scene because I could not help but wonder what it was like for Ricky Whittle to have to play the victim of a lynching (albeit a surreal, stylized, supernatural version of a lynching.)  During THIS episode all I could think of was wondering what the casting conversation was like with the actor who plays Will James.  I imagine the casting agent telling him, "You'll be playing a character who is brutally lynched  -- an event that will be depicted in realistic, graphic detail -- because he merely looked at a white woman (who later ends up murdered -- probably killed by a random white guy) and then that character, in his fear and rage and on-the-point-of-death-by-torture torment, decides to curse black people in that town with his dying breath."

To (mis)quote Laura Moon "Seriously, what the fuck?"

<sigh>

I'm now actually going to watch the last episode and this one again, back-to-back, in the hopes that somehow that will shed some light on what I MUST be missing.  Oh yay, I get to re-live the moment where we, the audience, get urinated on by Ian McShane.

UPDATE:  Hmmm.  I actually did like it better on second viewing.  Everything I know about the Loa (Voodoo gods that migrated to Louisiana from Haiti, like Baron Samedi in this ep) I learned from the Sprawl Trilogy by William Gibson.  The Loa Papa Legba had a pretty big role in that novel.  Anyway, one of the things I learned from that novel is that Loa can "ride" a human -- they can possess them in order to interact with the living.  So it's interesting that Will James -- who is a ghost, not a god -- has apparently learned to "ride" the living like a Loa.

Edited April 10, 2019 by WatchrTina

[arachne]

Hmm -- could  I get Wednesday to pee on my lawn? I seeded it the other day, and it has dire need of new growth.

Seriously: In spite of the more disturbing scenes (par for the course on this show) I enjoyed this episode far more than last week's. Without Laura and the Leprechaun, things get sluggish.

On a shallow note, the hot voodoo sex scenes were, well, just that. But Maman Brigitte as a ginger? Why?

Trying to figure out Mr. Nancy's long game here. Thinking back to that scene on the slave ship in S1, it looks as if Nancy's work is to make African-American life as difficult as possible, so they'll conclude that the deck is stacked against them no matter what. (Okay, I know it kind of is.) I'm guessing he knew from the get-go that the white Xtians in charge would force their slaves to turn against their old gods (like him) and his alliance with Wednesday & Co. is his own effort to turn that back around. But eh, what do I know, I'm just a dumb human.

And I hope to find out what that love-related blood exactly is to make Baron Samedi's potion work. 

[AimingforYoko]

"Better to get pissed off than pissed on." Oh Nancy, you always have a quip at the ready. He ain't wrong, though.

12 minutes ago, arachne said:

And I hope to find out what that love-related blood exactly is to make Baron Samedi's potion work. 

It's gonna be Sweeney's, right?

[Bruinsfan]

6 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

For example -- back in Season 1, when Shadow was nearly lynched by Technical Boy's henchmen I found it deeply troubling to watch that scene because I could not help but wonder what it was like for Ricky Whittle to have to play the victim on a lynching (albeit a surreal, stylized, supernatural version of a lynching.)

Would that be a particularly sensitive issue (beyond, y'know, being disturbed by playing someone who's being victimized horribly) for a British actor? I know mob violence has happened in some form basically everywhere, but I thought the symbolism of lynching as depicted on the show was pretty distinctively American.

I can't help but notice that the big parallel love scene in New Orleans took up a lot of time and involved a lot more skin on the part of the actresses, while the narrative appears to be going out of its way to keep Omid Abtahi's and Mousa Kraish's characters chastely at arm's length. Call me cynical, but I doubt that would have been the case if Bryan Fuller were still showrunner.

[hnygrl]

Just on a surface level:

Baron Samedi. Oh. My. GOD that man is fine!!!!! Idris Elba got a run for his money. That. Man. Is FOINE!!!!

🤤😳🤪😛

I WAS confused a bit by the funeral home scene, but (I have to watch this show with captions on since for this show? Words mean things). I think...I think Anansi is setting the Egyptians up. I think he's there to clean house. The tone of his voice - changes from asshole American to Ancient African (it's amazing how he does that! I always get a shiver of dread when he does) means something. I think...I think...Ibis & co are in trouble. I think they may be the reason the town is cursed. I have to do a rewatch but didn't the dead guy with the burning head say something to shadow about asking the right question? I don't know, but it made me look at Ibis and Jaquel in a new light...AND made me wonder anew why Bilquis, Anansi, & Wednesday were still there. 

All the sex stuff was just so freaking unnecessary. NONE of it was cogent to the plot and was just there to go "ooh, boobies, sexy times, heh heh heh." Fastforwarded through all of it. NONE of it is even necessary.

And yeah, when Baron said that about 2 drops of blood from someone who loves truly or deeply or something like that? I didn't think Shadow, I thought Sweeney.  He has feelings for her. Notice the way he looks at her now versus last season? If he wanted to he could've gotten that coin back at the railroad crossing but he didn't. He offered to put himself in another's debt...speaking of debts...

I don't think this war is gonna go the way Wednesday thinks it will. He's got too many people/gods with too many reasons to hate him...most if not all are only helping because they owe him/they have no choice. Very few are helping because they want to. What IF this were a long con? What IF Odin had Chernobog(sp)'s sister(s) killed? What if, unlike the books, the old and new Gods went "hey, wait-a-minute" and decided to con the con?

I don't know...but I DO know that there was a lot of very subtle stuff going on. Oding PEEING on the world tree to get it to grow HAS to mean something and that something can't possibly be good.

I highly recommend watching this one with captions on. 

Overall, I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. All of the subtle underpinnings going on was interesting and thought-provoking.

And did I forget to mention that Baron was the most beautiful man of any race I've ever seen? Cause damn  🤤

[Drogo]

Pablo Schreiber is such an underrated talent.

[peridot]

So did killing Argus also heal Laura of her scars?  I didn't see the autopsy scar on her chest during the morning after.

Also, why are the gods willing having sex with a corpse?!  She just threw up maggots the night before.

It was an interesting thought that Ibis and Jacquel willing allowed the curse to continue, so that they could feed off the death.  I didn't get it though, when Anansi was having drinks with Ibis after threatening him earlier. 

I like the idea of sentient cars and motorcycles, though it is a bit creepy.

[WatchrTina]

10 hours ago, hnygrl said:

And did I forget to mention that Baron was the most beautiful man of any race I've ever seen? Cause damn

Hmmmm.  I'd still have to argue in favor of Shadow being the designated hottie in this show.  On the other hand, did you see Mad Sweeney with his shirt off?  Damn.  The Leprechaun works out!  Who knew?

9 hours ago, Drogo said:

Pablo Schreiber is such an underrated talent.

See comment above.  🙂

1 hour ago, peridot said:

So did killing Argus also heal Laura of her scars?  I didn't see the autopsy scar on her chest during the morning after.

Oh.  Wow.  You're right.  Either Argus did it or that drink that Maman Brigitte gave to Laura did the trick.  Note that after she "drank" that (after already informing us earlier in the episode that she can't drink since her post-autopsy organs are no longer connected to one another) she suddenly was able to eat and enjoy it.  So I guess we're supposed to assume that while she's still technically dead, her alimentary canal and autopsy scars have healed.  I seem to remember Sweeney tucking some random organ back into her after the crash.  I sure hope the magic that is patching her up inside gets all those pieces in the right place.  If not, she may come back to "life" only to immediately die an agonizing death.  

This show -- it makes your mind go in weird directions.

1 hour ago, peridot said:

Also, why are the gods willing having sex with a corpse?!  She just threw up maggots the night before.

The gods be crazy.

1 hour ago, peridot said:

I like the idea of sentient cars and motorcycles, though it is a bit creepy.

Stephen King got there first (see the novel "Christine").

Edited April 8, 2019 by WatchrTina

[mjc570]

I didn’t understand a lot of what was going on, but since we’re talking about hotties, I find Orlando strangely attractive as Mr Nancy.  He’s also a terrific actor.  

[Drogo]

I like Orlando Jones in most things, but I find his accent choices/changes distracting in AG.  Worse, it's not necessary since he has some of the best material to work with.

[Haleth]

I like his changes in voice and tone. Anansi is a trickster after all. 

[terrymct]

23 hours ago, hnygrl said:

I WAS confused a bit by the funeral home scene, but (I have to watch this show with captions on since for this show? Words mean things). I think...I think Anansi is setting the Egyptians up. I think he's there to clean house. The tone of his voice - changes from asshole American to Ancient African (it's amazing how he does that! I always get a shiver of dread when he does) means something. I think...I think...Ibis & co are in trouble. I think they may be the reason the town is cursed. I have to do a rewatch but didn't the dead guy with the burning head say something to shadow about asking the right question? I don't know, but it made me look at Ibis and Jaquel in a new light...AND made me wonder anew why Bilquis, Anansi, & Wednesday were still there. 

All the sex stuff was just so freaking unnecessary. NONE of it was cogent to the plot and was just there to go "ooh, boobies, sexy times, heh heh heh." Fastforwarded through all of it. NONE of it is even necessary.

I'm kind of leaning that way with Cairo, too.  There's a curse there originating with the lynching of that man.  Ibis and Jacquel have been willing to just keep out of it and just stick to their duties related to the dead.   I hope Anansi is there to push the community into action.  I wonder though, if Ibis is playing a longer game.  Knowing that he's supposed to stay out of things, he puts Shadow in the right place where HE'LL make the change with some motivation from Ananzi.     The fire in Shadow's eyes reminds me of the burning buffalo, adding to my curiosity whether Shadow is the manifestation of the burning buffalo.  He's obviously transforming during this long road trip to understanding who and what he is.

I agree that the sex scenes were unnecessary and frankly telegraphed from a mile away.  As Mad Sweeney and Dead Wife got closer and closer, they were on a boning trajectory.  The actress who plays Dead Wife is so waif-ish that she looked like a child in relation to the two large men.  That was uncomfortable for me to see.  It made the scene(s) even weirder than just your run of the mill voodoo body switching four person orgy.

 

13 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

🙂

Oh.  Wow.  You're right.  Either Argus did it or that drink that Maman Brigitte gave to Laura did the trick.  Note that after she "drank" that (after already informing us earlier in the episode that she can't drink since her post-autopsy organs are no longer connected to one another) she suddenly was able to eat and enjoy it.  So I guess we're supposed to assume that while she's still technically dead, her alimentary canal and autopsy scars have healed.  I seem to remember Sweeney tucking some random organ back into her after the crash.  I sure hope the magic that is patching her up inside gets all those pieces in the right place.  If not, she may come back to "life" only to immediately die an agonizing death.  

After she killed Argus, she healed.  Things joined back together and her color improved.  After the drink, she started getting some function back.  Breathe, hairs raising, etc.   Essentially, she's taken two steps away from the grave.  Finish the formula and drink that and she'll supposedly be alive.   

[ElectricBoogaloo]

46 minutes ago, terrymct said:

even weirder than just your run of the mill voodoo body switching four person orgy.

Ha, perfect description!

[Bruinsfan]

I think Mustafa Shakir outdoes even Ricky Whittle in prettiness, although there are relatively few people in this cast who aren't easy on the eyes. Oddly Omid Abtahi is my crush on this show, however.

[DarkRaichu]

So the gods & mythical beings on Odin's side help him because they were onliged to not because they wanted to.  Except for Anasi, he aligned himself to get things back to the way they were (I think).

I have no idea what the point if Shadow's journey to the dead.  To give a eulogy? To curse this generation of blacks in Cairo?  And why did the 3 God's laughed at him at the end?  Because he let himself got possessed?

I am losing my interest fast...

I think that 2 drops of true love blood means a certain leprechaun is going to be sacrificed to get Laura's life back.

I like how Djin and Odin goading Salim about his belief.

So did anyone else got flashback of Deadwood when Odin peed on the plant?? 😄

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

So the gods & mythical beings on Odin's side help him because they were onliged to not because they wanted to.  Except for Anasi, he aligned himself to get things back to the way they were (I think).

I have no idea what the point if Shadow's journey to the dead.  To give a eulogy? To curse this generation of blacks in Cairo?

I think the point of the episode was:

1. The blacks in Cairo were already cursed - by Will James (the Hanged Man), for their inaction during his torture/death.
2. On the surface Ibis appears to adopt a “we’re Switzerland” peaceful neutrality stance, but Anansi attributes darker motives to the Egyptians - he suggests they tolerate the persecution of Cairo blacks for professional benefit.
3. I don’t think Will James delivered an individual curse directly upon Shadow - quite the opposite, in fact. I think Will equipped Shadow with the ability to lift James’s earlier curse from Cairo’s black population.

Only time will tell with respect to #3 - but if I’m right, then Ibis’s response to any attempt at amelioration of the “Cairo curse” should be extremely revealing.

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

I think that 2 drops of true love blood means a certain leprechaun is going to be sacrificed to get Laura's life back.

Sacrificed - for two drops?  Nah.  Just wait until Sweeney gets into his next fight or misfortune, and catch some of the spill.  😄 

[Lemur]

16 hours ago, arachne said:

On a shallow note, the hot voodoo sex scenes were, well, just that. But Maman Brigitte as a ginger? Why?

...

Trying to figure out Mr. Nancy's long game here. Thinking back to that scene on the slave ship in S1, it looks as if Nancy's work is to make African-American life as difficult as possible, so they'll conclude that the deck is stacked against them no matter what. (Okay, I know it kind of is.) I'm guessing he knew from the get-go that the white Xtians in charge would force their slaves to turn against their old gods (like him) and his alliance with Wednesday & Co. is his own effort to turn that back around. But eh, what do I know, I'm just a dumb human.

Maman Brigitte is the only white voudon, and her origins are in Ireland.  She's traditionally red or brown haired.  It's also why she and Mad Sweeney get on so well. 

As for Nancy, his long game, like all of the gods, is to have sacrifices made to him so he doesn't fade away.  Less black people = less sacrifices.  But he is/was the trickster god, so screwing with people is kind of his thing.  I think that's one of the things that makes his character interesting, there's something to be said about the usual, everyday, life-screwing-with-you stuff you could attribute to him and then there's the realization that his people won't be able to sacrifice to him because they'll be enslaved. 

14 hours ago, hnygrl said:

I WAS confused a bit by the funeral home scene, but (I have to watch this show with captions on since for this show? Words mean things). I think...I think Anansi is setting the Egyptians up. I think he's there to clean house. The tone of his voice - changes from asshole American to Ancient African (it's amazing how he does that! I always get a shiver of dread when he does) means something. I think...I think...Ibis & co are in trouble. I think they may be the reason the town is cursed. I have to do a rewatch but didn't the dead guy with the burning head say something to shadow about asking the right question? I don't know, but it made me look at Ibis and Jaquel in a new light...AND made me wonder anew why Bilquis, Anansi, & Wednesday were still there. 

Anansi was accusing the Egyptians of creating a self-perpetuating trade, which would therefore reduce the number of potential worshippers of Anansi.  Fewer black folks = fewer sacrifices.  Anansi and Wednesday are still there because Cairo is pretty centrally located in the US.  It's not in the middle, but it's not quite north, south, east or west.  I'm not sure why Bilquis is still there yet, as she seems to be playing both sides.  Could be she's found a fertile ground to start picking up worshippers for a while that's off the new gods' radar (as she'd previously been dependent on Technology, i.e. Tinder).

13 hours ago, Drogo said:

Pablo Schreiber is such an underrated talent.

Absolutely concur. 

5 hours ago, peridot said:

So did killing Argus also heal Laura of her scars?  I didn't see the autopsy scar on her chest during the morning after.

Also, why are the gods willing having sex with a corpse?!  She just threw up maggots the night before.

It was an interesting thought that Ibis and Jacquel willing allowed the curse to continue, so that they could feed off the death.  I didn't get it though, when Anansi was having drinks with Ibis after threatening him earlier. 

Argus recharged the coin, but Maman Brigitte's drink reversed some of death's effects.  Combine that with  ... ahem ... "being imbued with the essence of a god" (as the Greeks liked to say) and the clock got turned back a bit. 

3 hours ago, terrymct said:

After she killed Argus, she healed.  Things joined back together and her color improved.  After the drink, she started getting some function back.  Breathe, hairs raising, etc.   Essentially, she's taken two steps away from the grave.  Finish the formula and drink that and she'll supposedly be alive.   

She wasn't healed, the coin was recharged, which allowed here to function.  The she still had the autopsy scars.  

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

I have no idea what the point if Shadow's journey to the dead.  To give a eulogy? To curse this generation of blacks in Cairo?  And why did the 3 God's laughed at him at the end?  Because he let himself got possessed?

The whole William James storyline is deeply bothersome.  Actually, just about this entire season's ruminations on race have been deeply bothersome.  You have these three African gods talking about their place in the scheme but no white people/gods around.  You have lynching victim cursing future generations of his own people.  Yes, it's no simple equation and self-loathing does exist, but this is a gross oversimplification.  So what the point is?  Who the ^&*% knows.  Anyway, off the soapbox on that.  The three gods laughed because Shadow is still so naive. 

[Lemur]

34 minutes ago, Nashville said:

I think the point of the episode was:

1. The blacks in Cairo were already cursed - by Will James (the Hanged Man), for their inaction during his torture/death.
2. On the surface Ibis appears to adopt a “we’re Switzerland” peaceful neutrality stance, but Anansi attributes darker motives to the Egyptians - he suggests they tolerate the persecution of Cairo blacks for professional benefit.
3. I don’t think Will James delivered an individual curse directly upon Shadow - quite the opposite, in fact. I think Will equipped Shadow with the ability to lift James’s earlier curse from Cairo’s black population.

Only time will tell with respect to #3 - but if I’m right, then Ibis’s response to any attempt at amelioration of the “Cairo curse” should be extremely revealing.

Sacrificed - for two drops?  Nah.  Just wait until Sweeney gets into his next fight or misfortune, and catch some of the spill.  😄 

Points 1-3 are excellent.

As for the "two drops of blood infused with love", how vague.  I mean, does it have to do with love someone would feel for Laura?  (Good bloody luck with that, guess she's kicking the dust up to Eagle Point to her mom's house or getting a declaration of love out of Sweeney.  I mean, would two drops of "it's really freaking complicated" from Shadow suffice?)  

[rab01]

They screwed up the order of scenes didn't they? Wednesday peed on yggdrasil before meeting the djinn to receive mjolnir BUT it was the djinn who received both last episode. Wednesday shouldn't have had it yet.

 Also, am I right that Wednesday called the god from that episode "Yahweh"? As in the god of the old testament? I've got to say, if a God's strength is measured by belief of his followers, there are a lot more Jews in the world these days than Odin-worshippers.  

Lastly, I'm shocked that I was right in my guess that the sprig might be from yggdrasil.  

[Nashville]

25 minutes ago, Lemur said:

As for the "two drops of blood infused with love", how vague.  I mean, does it have to do with love someone would feel for Laura?  (Good bloody luck with that, guess she's kicking the dust up to Eagle Point to her mom's house or getting a declaration of love out of Sweeney.  I mean, would two drops of "it's really freaking complicated" from Shadow suffice?)  

 I’m finding the entire Laura/Sweeney relationship… interesting. I mean it’s been written in 40 foot high blazing letters across the sky that Sweeney felt an initial feeling of obligation for Laura (seeing as how he caused her death), and that obligation has morphed into feelings of affection/attraction - but when have we ever been given an indication that Laura reciprocated Sweeney’s affections?  

THIS question is what makes the whole sex-swap scene plot-relevant. Samedi’s sole desire for payment was the revelation of absolute truth, and the sexplay was obviously his tool for getting at a truth Laura herself might never consciously admit (same for Brigette and Sweeney, BTW). But while Sweeney seeing Laura in the heat of passion is no surprise, Laura seeing Sweeney as an object of true love was (to me, anyway) somewhat unexpected - little of Laura’s character development has indicated she considers Sweeney much more than a familiar traveling companion, and certainly not much affection beyond the “pal” level.  

Or was this simply Samedi’s way of revealing to Laura her truest - or most convenient - source of love-infused blood, regardless of the depth (or lack thereof) of her own feelings towards Sweeney?

Hmmmm....

[Lemur]

7 hours ago, rab01 said:

They screwed up the order of scenes didn't they? Wednesday peed on yggdrasil before meeting the djinn to receive mjolnir BUT it was the djinn who received both last episode. Wednesday shouldn't have had it yet.

Mjolnir is Thor's hammer.  Grungnir is Odin's spear.  And yes, it seems they did screw up the timing. 

 

7 hours ago, Nashville said:

Or was this simply Samedi’s way of revealing to Laura her truest - or most convenient - source of love-infused blood, regardless of the depth (or lack thereof) of her own feelings towards Sweeney?

Hmmmm....

Could be.

Also, interesting to note that the white woman who got William James in trouble was played by Laura. 

[rab01]

3 minutes ago, Lemur said:

Mjolnir is Thor's hammer.  Grungnir is Odin's spear. 

Oops and thanks

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Sacrificed - for two drops?  Nah.  Just wait until Sweeney gets into his next fight or misfortune, and catch some of the spill.  😄 

Don't forget Samedi is a devil.  He could say "Did I say 2 drops? I meant the LAST 2 drops" 

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

On the surface Ibis appears to adopt a “we’re Switzerland” peaceful neutrality stance, but Anansi attributes darker motives to the Egyptians - he suggests they tolerate the persecution of Cairo blacks for professional benefit.

As seen in season 1, Ibis took care of the dead from all over US.  If what you said is true, the focusing on black population on a relatively small area as Cairo is dumb AF story device, IMHO.  Plus lynching etc of blacks had happened long before James' time (post civil war?)

[Bruinsfan]

Did Odin plant Yggdrasil from that leaf Iktomi gave Ibrahim, or from the remnant of Mr. Wood that he pulled out of Shadow in the first season after their confab with the New Gods?

[terrymct]

19 minutes ago, Lemur said:

Could be.

Also, interesting to note that the white woman who got William James in trouble was played by Laura. 

She also played the Irish immigrant lady who brought Mad Sweeney to the New World, iirc.

On an entirely different subject, I enjoy the short term characters who blow through each week.  The tallest dwarf in the New World was interesting.  What happened to all his subordinate dwarfs as the business went down hill?

[Drogo]

25 minutes ago, Lemur said:

Also, interesting to note that the white woman who got William James in trouble was played by Laura. 

Starting to wonder if the casting director for female actors is just lazy.

(^Sarcasm.)

Edited April 8, 2019 by Drogo
Clarification.

[Lemur]

15 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Did Odin plant Yggdrasil from that leaf Iktomi gave Ibrahim, or from the remnant of Mr. Wood that he pulled out of Shadow in the first season after their confab with the New Gods?

The assumption is that it's from the sprout Iktomi gave Ibrahim. 

Just now, Drogo said:

Starting to wonder if the casting director for female actors is just lazy.

Symbolism.  

[Nashville]

18 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

As seen in season 1, Ibis took care of the dead from all over US.  If what you said is true, the focusing on black population on a relatively small area as Cairo is dumb AF story device, IMHO. 

Kinda; people die all over the world every day, but I expect Ibis and Jacquel Funeral Parlor only receives and works on those bodies destined for local interment.  That’s standard practice in the U. S., anyway; a body released by a hospital / coroner / medical examiner is shipped intact (or relatively intact, if an autopsy was performed) to the funeral home handling the final arrangements, which prepares the body in accordance with local regulations.  Those regulations can vary from state to state, which is why they’re handled at the final destination.

18 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Plus lynching etc of blacks had happened long before James' time (post civil war?)

Methinks the sticking point for James - and the foundation of his curse - was less about  the actual lynching per se, and more about his brethren looking on silently and not doing anything about it.  Not speaking from personal experience, mind you, but it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if most racially motivated lynchings involved one black face in the midst of a sea of white.

[Haleth]

2 hours ago, Lemur said:

Could be.

Also, interesting to note that the white woman who got William James in trouble was played by Laura. 

Speaking of this, when Mad Sweeny woke up after passing out drunk I couldn't hear what he said but did he call Dead Wife by the name of the Irish lass  (whose name I forget)?  

[nodorothyparker]

All the lynching stuff is so muddled for me that I'm going to have ruminate on it a bit and maybe do a rewatch before I can begin to fully make sense of it.  Or maybe I won't as I'm not sure I really want to sit through it a second time.

The Laura/Mad Sweeney story is the only one I'm truly emotionally invested in, so this one paid off in spades for me.  I could watch Sweeney stumbling around the French Quarter drunk all day long and the Baron was one fine looking man.  Since I've been half fearing this would eventually devolve into some odd hate sex trope, I liked the progression of how this came about.  The Baron was laying some hard truths on Laura that she never really loved Shadow and that getting her life back is all about her and actually living rather than sleepwalking her way to getting back together with him, which Wednesday also basically told her but he doesn't have Wednesday's baggage so she's more open to hearing it from him.  It's also not surprising given what we know about Laura that when asked to "give your truth" that she immediately responds with sex.  No, it's not any big shocker that Sweeney would eventually "find" Laura in the moment as Maman Bridgette had already called him on it, but it seemed like it took Laura as much by surprise as anyone to find Sweeney there at the end.  All standard issue male gazeyness aside, there was something lovely and tender in that final shot.  The morning after scene was exquisite in all its awkward glory with both of them first at a loss how to interact with each other before retreating to their usual sniping and defensiveness.  Oh, and there's still that little matter of needing two drops of love-infused blood that isn't going to go away.

Loved Wednesday and the Djinn ragging Salim about his stubborn monotheism.  

[WatchrTina]

8 hours ago, Lemur said:

[Laura] still had the autopsy scars.  

But she didn't.  We saw her bare torso plain as day and I sure didn't see a Y-seam.  Which raises another issue -- how is Sweeney going to get his coin back if/when Laura become fully alive again? How can he get access to it if Laura's skin has healed?  I can think of no good options

7 hours ago, terrymct said:

On an entirely different subject, I enjoy the short term characters who blow through each week.  The tallest dwarf in the New World was interesting. 

I was pretty sure I recognized him from another dwarf role so I looked him up in IMDb and yep, sure enough, he played Grumpy (Leroy), one of the seven dwarves in "Once Upon a Time."  That's kind of funny.  Dude's getting type-cast.

5 hours ago, Haleth said:

when Mad Sweeny woke up after passing out drunk I couldn't hear what he said but did he call Dead Wife by the name of the Irish lass  (whose name I forget)?  

No, he said "Jude?" -- as in St. Jude, patron saint of desperate cases and lost causes, whose statue he had been embracing and cursing a few minutes earlier. It's possible those two were acquainted back in the day. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by WatchrTina

[JayBird23]

There are a lot of great posts above from all you guys.  I enjoyed reading them more than I enjoyed the actual episode.  You are truly dedicated at trying to make sense of a very sloppy Season 2 of AG.

I loved Season 1 and I'm looking forward to Season 3.  This season is a deranged mess, sorry.  I would rather watch the main characters in a discussion of what went wrong with Season 2.  Very good actors with very horrible writing and direction--a real waste.  How we ever earned a Season 3 is a story in itself.  I'm sure Gaiman had to do some finagling.

I'm still watching but it's painful.  May as well just have all sex since it's no worse than all the incoherent and disjointed story lines.  I'm watching the pieces of ten different jigsaw puzzles being forced together.

Still, you guys here on this message board have done a great job of trying to make sense of it all.  Your summaries and interpretations are the best thing AG has going, 

J.

[terrymct]

12 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Which raises another issue -- how is Sweeney going to get his coin back if/when Laura become fully alive again? How can he get access to it if Laura's skin has healed?  I can think of no good options

I was wondering the same thing.  The show has magic running all though it.  Perhaps the coin is expelled in some kind of gloriously showy fashion once she drinks the potion+love blood.  Or there will be vomit and gore involved because the show does THAT as frequently as it does magic.

I read the book about a year ago, but decided a few weeks ago to put it entirely out of my mind as I'm watching.  The book had a whole lot of threads and short stories woven through it.  The show picks up some of those, others it doesn't (which can be a good thing on occasion).  The show has veered off on its own and I've ceased to worry about relating it to the book.  I have more free time that way.

[Lemur]

12 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

But she didn't.  We saw her bare torso plain as day and I sure didn't see a Y-seam.  Which raises another issue -- how is Sweeney going to get his coin back if/when Laura become fully alive again? How can he get access to it if Laura's skin has healed?  I can think of no good options 

She didn't after she'd drank Brigitte's drink and she'd slept with Samodi/Sweeney.  She surely did after Ibis put her back together.  I doubt Argus's death recharged the coin enough to erase the scars, but Maman Brigitte's drink would, as she serves death and can turn the clock back a bit. As for how will Sweeney get it back ... you saw what happened to the maggots that were in her, correct?  Same thing would happen to the coin - she'd purge it. 

[Lemur]

17 hours ago, Nashville said:

Kinda; people die all over the world every day, but I expect Ibis and Jacquel Funeral Parlor only receives and works on those bodies destined for local interment.  That’s standard practice in the U. S., anyway; a body released by a hospital / coroner / medical examiner is shipped intact (or relatively intact, if an autopsy was performed) to the funeral home handling the final arrangements, which prepares the body in accordance with local regulations.  Those regulations can vary from state to state, which is why they’re handled at the final destination.

Methinks the sticking point for James - and the foundation of his curse - was less about  the actual lynching per se, and more about his brethren looking on silently and not doing anything about it.  Not speaking from personal experience, mind you, but it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if most racially motivated lynchings involved one black face in the midst of a sea of white.

 Ibis and Jacquel Funeral Parlor is located in the Mississippi delta town of Cairo because there is a theory that ancient Egyptian and Nubian sailors made it as far east as the US and in fact sailed up the Mississippi.  Which is how Ibis and Jacquel (and Bastet and Thoth and Horus).  They have long seen after the funerary arts of the area.  In their god-form, they see to the judgment of anyone who believed in them as we saw in the first season.  

Totally agree on the James curse.

[DarkRaichu]

20 hours ago, Nashville said:

Kinda; people die all over the world every day, but I expect Ibis and Jacquel Funeral Parlor only receives and works on those bodies destined for local interment.  That’s standard practice in the U. S., anyway; a body released by a hospital / coroner / medical examiner is shipped intact (or relatively intact, if an autopsy was performed) to the funeral home handling the final arrangements, which prepares the body in accordance with local regulations.  Those regulations can vary from state to state, which is why they’re handled at the final destination.

They deal with death all over the US.  Having their story localized in such a small area make them look small and pathetic.  Unless that is the point of the storyline?  They are so small and pathetic the main source of their worship / power is a ghost that died 100-150 years ago?

20 hours ago, Nashville said:

Methinks the sticking point for James - and the foundation of his curse - was less about  the actual lynching per se, and more about his brethren looking on silently and not doing anything about it.  Not speaking from personal experience, mind you, but it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if most racially motivated lynchings involved one black face in the midst of a sea of white.

Wasn't that true on most if not all cases of lynching before that time period?

2 hours ago, Lemur said:

In their god-form, they see to the judgment of anyone who believed in them as we saw in the first season.  

And also the atheists apparently, ie Laura. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[Lemur]

31 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

They deal with death all over the US.  Having their story localized in such a small area make them look small and pathetic.  Unless that is the point of the storyline?  They are so small and pathetic the main source of their worship / power is a ghost that died 100-150 years ago?

...

And also the atheists apparently, ie Laura. 

That is the point, though, isn't it?  Their worshippers are long gone and in fact most of those little delta towns are dying (i.e. Ruby Goodchild wanted to GTFO).   As for Laura, she was always kind to her grandmother's cat and Bast/Bastet is the cat goddess.  

[nodorothyparker]

Laura also worked at a cheesy ancient Egyptian-themed casino.  So while it's highly doubtful she felt anything akin to worship, she was surrounded by their symbols and wore them as part of her work uniform every shift.  In the absence of anything else, that may have been enough for the Egyptian gods to latch onto and say we got this one.  We've seen before that it sometimes doesn't take much or the connections can be nebulous at best as the old gods scramble for crumbs to sustain them.

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Laura also worked at a cheesy ancient Egyptian-themed casino.  So while it's highly doubtful she felt anything akin to worship, she was surrounded by their symbols and wore them as part of her work uniform every shift.  In the absence of anything else, that may have been enough for the Egyptian gods to latch onto and say we got this one.  We've seen before that it sometimes doesn't take much or the connections can be nebulous at best as the old gods scramble for crumbs to sustain them.

This is validated by the entire Easter/Ostra storyline.  The vast vast majority of people/worshippers saying “Happy Easter!” in current times are doing so from a purely Christian-centric frame of reference - but for Ostra the simple reference of her name (even unintentionally) was sufficient for her to not only exist, but to flourish.

And ye gods, I loves me some Kristin Chenoweth.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Laura also worked at a cheesy ancient Egyptian-themed casino.  So while it's highly doubtful she felt anything akin to worship, she was surrounded by their symbols and wore them as part of her work uniform every shift.  In the absence of anything else, that may have been enough for the Egyptian gods to latch onto and say we got this one.  We've seen before that it sometimes doesn't take much or the connections can be nebulous at best as the old gods scramble for crumbs to sustain them.

If that is the case, Ibis should not be worry as long as the Luxor in Las Vegas is in business 😉

1 hour ago, Lemur said:

That is the point, though, isn't it?  Their worshippers are long gone and in fact most of those little delta towns are dying (i.e. Ruby Goodchild wanted to GTFO).   As for Laura, she was always kind to her grandmother's cat and Bast/Bastet is the cat goddess.  

Ok, I am going to go with that for now. 

On somewhat related note, does anyone know why Bilquist has not eaten/consumed Ruby Goodchilld?  I thought Bilquist ate almost all humans that have contact with her 

Edited April 9, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[nodorothyparker]

Wednesday in this episode was going on to Samir about worship, they need people to worship them.  It's a recurring theme with gods.  So I'm guessing the extreme passiveness of standing around in a tacky Egyptian-themed casino probably doesn't give you nearly as many god credits as people invoking your name and symbolism in worship even if it is for an entirely different religion that co-opted yours, as @Nashville points out is what's giving Easter her staying power.

[terrymct]

35 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

On somewhat related note, does anyone know why Bilquist has not eaten/consumed Ruby Goodchilld?  I thought Bilquist ate almost all humans that have contact with her 

Bilquist is certainly trying to get Ruby to come away with her.  Ruby is either slated to become a new side kick or the next victim of the vag vacuum.  

[taanja]

Mostly I have no clue what's going on. But I do like Mad Sweeny and Dead Wife. So I keep watching.

[tennisgurl]

First of all, Baron Samedi is HOOOOT like good Lord! I will worship him every day of the week! Dead Wife and Sweenys trippy New Orleans stuff was definitely the highlight of the episode for me. Baron Samedi and Bridgette are my favorite gods introduced this season so far, they were fun and seemed like a pretty solid version of their mythical selves for this universe, and I admit that I pretty fully into Laura/Sweeny at this point. It is kind of funny that Laura accused him of seducing her on Wednesdays orders. Like, I think if he wanted Laura to get her sexy on, his first choice wouldn't have been a pissed off drunk leprechaun. I mean, I get it, but I don't know about Wednesday 😉 

I enjoyed Wednesday showing up for the Salim and the Djinn road trip, and both of them giving Salim crap for him being a monotheist in spite of everything he has seen. It is an interesting idea to bring up, whether someone who believes in something so strongly like Allah can keep believing in them after seeing so much that contradicts it. Or, depending on how you look at it, its proof that gods are real, and therefore so should his. 

Grumpy from Once Upon a Time playing the King of Dwarfs! Hilarious!

I did like this episode more than last week, but this seasons fixation on race (especially on the African American experience) is just...clunky and uncomfortable. Like, how many lynching scenes are we going to have to watch here? The whole plot with the ghost of the lynched black man was just so weird and muddled, and to what end? I think I need to think on it more, or figure out what its trying to say, but I dont really want to. Its aspects of all the worst parts of this season, the clunky handling of sensitive issues, the wonky characterization, and plodding pace that just keeps grinding to a halt, its just nothing I want to see. And whats with the implication that Ibis and Jacquel are somehow involved in the deaths of young black men in Cairo? I dont like that at all. Not only does it seem out of character, and Ibis and Jacquel have long been two of my favorite gods on the show/book, but why would they bother? People ALWAYS die, death gods are some of the few old gods who shouldn't have to worry about having worshipers! 

[hnygrl]

52 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

First of all, Baron Samedi is HOOOOT like good Lord! I will worship him every day of the week!

I looked him up. His name is Mustapha Shakir.

You're welcome.

[Nashville]

Quote

And whats with the implication that Ibis and Jacquel are somehow involved in the deaths of young black men in Cairo?

Not so much directly “involved” as (a) not doing anything to stop it and (b) passively profiting from its continuation.  Kinda like Swiss bankers and their disingenuous handling of WWII-era accounts and assets.

 

12 hours ago, Lemur said:

That is the point, though, isn't it?  Their worshippers are long gone and in fact most of those little delta towns are dying (i.e. Ruby Goodchild wanted to GTFO).   

That’s true of Smalltown USA everywhere these days, isn’t it?  With the accelerating de-ruralization of America over-counterbalanced by the accelerating technology economy, any young American wanting to get anywhere in life these days generally find themselves abandoning the family farms and small towns to head to the metropolitan centers - urban clusters which tend to minimize faith in ANYTHING other than the Almighty Dollar, and a S/He Who Dies With the Most Toys Wins mindset.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I enjoyed Wednesday showing up for the Salim and the Djinn road trip, and both of them giving Salim crap for him being a monotheist in spite of everything he has seen. It is an interesting idea to bring up, whether someone who believes in something so strongly like Allah can keep believing in them after seeing so much that contradicts it. Or, depending on how you look at it, its proof that gods are real, and therefore so should his. 

Technically his religion (or maybe certain sects in that religion) acknowledges the existence of magical/spiritual beings like Djinns.  Salim could have just rationalized that Wednesday is a more powerful djinn and voila no contradiction. 

Although I am still waiting to see if the show has the balls to depict a personification of Salim's god 😛

[Pallas]

On 4/8/2019 at 5:28 PM, Haleth said:

Speaking of this, when Mad Sweeny woke up after passing out drunk I couldn't hear what he said but did he call Dead Wife by the name of the Irish lass  (whose name I forget)?  

Yes. (Essie McGowan.) Then as his vision focused, he frowned and grumbled, "Oh it's you." 

ETA: Ha! Corrected by @WatchrTina: 

Quote

No, he said "Jude?" -- as in St. Jude, patron saint of desperate cases and lost causes, whose statue he had been embracing and cursing a few minutes earlier. It's possible those two were acquainted back in the day.

Is Laura/was Essie his St. Jude then? 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Pallas
Wrongness.