S02.E11: Lasting Impressions

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, Meushell said:

He doesn’t have to look her up to be respectful, but he said himself how he learned that people of the past matter. He’s not treating her like she matters by turning her image and personal information into a high tech sex toy (he says girlfriend, but he’s lying to himself). 

I didn't say anything about being respectful as the reason for looking her up.  I said I saw no purpose in looking her up since he'd already fallen in love with her fictionalized recreation, because knowing how she had REALLY lived (and died) would be too painful a reminder to him that he never knew or loved the REAL Laura and that she never knew HIM.  He's simply better off not knowing how the REAL Laura's life played out so he can always cherish the memory of his "relationship" with the "recreated" Laura.

[Yeah No]

49 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

But what purpose would that have served, really?  Gordon would only have been reminded that the real Laura managed to live a full life that never could have included him because he had the bad luck to have been born in the wrong century. And how do you think he would feel reading about the date and circumstances of his historical lover's death sometime in say, the late 2070s or 2080s after she had lived that life without him?  If he hadn't fallen in love with the fictionalized recreation of her, it would have been fine if he'd looked up her history or even tried to find out whether she had any descendants living in 2419.  But the fact that he HAD loved a version of her would only have made learning of her actual fate that much more painful for him. He's better off NOT knowing what happened to the real Laura.

I think a lot of us could ask ourselves that question even today as we try to say hello to people from our pasts.  I've looked up old boyfriends and childhood friends online 30-50 years later only to find out that they later got married, had kids, got sick, died, became billionaires, or committed suicide only 10 days before I looked them up due to being implicated in an insider trading scandal.  Knowing these things is painful, but much better than never knowing because it's real.  I think knowing how Laura ended up would help Gordon to make the important distinction between being in love with a fantasy and the very real person he never really knew.  It would put his feelings into perspective and bring him some kind of closure.

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, Yeah No said:

I've looked up old boyfriends and childhood friends online 30-50 years later only to find out that they later got married, had kids, got sick, died, became billionaires, or committed suicide only 10 days before I looked them up due to being implicated in an insider trading scandal. 

Just how many future corrupt CEOs and politicians did you date back in the day?  You must have had a particular type of bad boy that you were attracted to, I guess!

[Yeah No]

1 minute ago, legaleagle53 said:

Just how many future corrupt CEOs and politicians did you date back in the day?  You must have had a particular type of bad boy that you were attracted to, I guess!

No, I didn't know any future politicians but I did know Neil DeGrasse Tyson in high school.  No bad boys on that list or anywhere in my life, just a couple of nice Jewish boys that went into day trading and got caught up in a scandal, and one that became a CEO of a huge IT company, and as far as I know he's not corrupt.

[Meushell]

9 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

I didn't say anything about being respectful as the reason for looking her up.  I said I saw no purpose in looking her up since he'd already fallen in love with her fictionalized recreation, because knowing how she had REALLY lived (and died) would be too painful a reminder to him that he never knew or loved the REAL Laura and that she never knew HIM.  He's simply better off not knowing how the REAL Laura's life played out so he can always cherish the memory of his "relationship" with the "recreated" Laura.

No, you didn’t, but his mistreatment of the real Laura the point I was making in the post you quoted. That and me asking how looking her up would be a violation of her.

To sum it up, he treated a real person with disrespect, used her for his own self interest, and basically decided that the real person behind his new sex toy didn’t matter. That’s not okay with me. 

[Yeah No]

24 minutes ago, Meushell said:

To sum it up, he treated a real person with disrespect, used her for his own self interest, and basically decided that the real person behind his new sex toy didn’t matter. That’s not okay with me. 

I actually think what he did honored her.  I didn't see any disrespect or treating the real person like they didn't matter.  The guy had a crush, he was following his heart.  He wasn't using her as far as I could see.  I think he was attempting to get to know the real person but was confined to having to accept a facsimile of her, which admittedly was not really her but that's not how he experienced it, anyway.  His feelings for her were just as real as if they were for the real person.  And if he could have known the real person he would have, and most likely would have treated her with respect, I am sure.  I am also sure the real Laura would have been very flattered and touched to know about his feelings and how he tried to find a way to connect with her. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Yeah No

[Meushell]

10 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Whoa, really?  Were we watching the same show?  I think what he did honored her.  I didn't see any disrespect or treating the real person like they didn't matter.  The guy had a crush, he was following his heart.  He wasn't using her as far as I could see.  I think he was attempting to get to know the real person but was confined to having to accept a facsimile of her, which admittedly was not really her but that's not how he experienced it, anyway.  His feelings for her were just as real as if they were for the real person.  And if he could have known the real person he would have, and most likely would have treated her with respect, I am sure.  I am also sure the real Laura would have been very flattered and touched to know about his feelings and how he tried to find a way to connect with her. 

Yes, we were watching the same show. It comes off as a little rude to ask that, as it does come off as, “There is no way you could have watched that and have that opinion.” I’m sure that’s not what you meant.

As for the rest, I just don’t agree. I’ve stated why a few times now, so if you don’t mind, I’m choosing not to just repeat myself. My sum up was what I got from the episode. I will add that I don’t really care if Gordon would be hurt by looking up the real Laura because of how he treated her, or rather, her memory, in the first place. Looking her up after would have been the least he could do. Those who agree, agree. Those who don’t, don’t. 

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Meushell said:

Yes, we were watching the same show. It comes off as a little rude to ask that, as it does come off as, “There is no way you could have watched that and have that opinion.” I’m sure that’s not what you meant.

As for the rest, I just don’t agree. I’ve stated why a few times now, so if you don’t mind, I’m choosing not to just repeat myself. My sum up was what I got from the episode. I will add that I don’t really care if Gordon would be hurt by looking up the real Laura because of how he treated her, or rather, her memory, in the first place. Looking her up after would have been the least he could do. Those who agree, agree. Those who don’t, don’t. 

For the record, I edited my post well before you posted this so I did not intend for that phrase to be there.  Of course you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.  I would never mind that, as that's why this board exists.  Neither would I expect you to repeat yourself.  I got it.  I just see more reason to find the glass half full in this episode than empty.  I think on some level Gordon knew he was dealing with a program and not a real person, so his actions were influenced by that no matter how "real" it felt to him.  Had he been dealing with the real person I doubt he would have tried to "delete" her boyfriend.  Is everyone that has a fantasy of a famous person where they make them do what they want them to guilty of using them as objects for their pleasure as if they are a rapist with no conscience?  Is every fan girl with fantasies of a boy band is guilty of that?  I don't think so.  Gordon was in a simulation, not real life so I don't see what he does there as more than a fantasy, even if his feelings were real.  So I don't see what he did as a horrible offense.  Misguided and influenced by emotions, perhaps.  But the situation was a complicated one and I'm sure he's not really as bad as all that.  YMMV.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Yeah No

[fauntleroy]

17 hours ago, fauntleroy said:

... They are in a SPACE SHIP - go fly to interesting places. The funny Moclan cigarette B plot is enough homage, now come up with a real idea for the A plot. Stop dicking around and go do something.

Occurred to me later that the above reaction reminded me of my mum back when kids were expected to be outside during the day rather than vegging on the couch watching TV or whatnot. Remaining in the house was viewed with suspicion.

Seth is the kid who doesn't want to go outside. He wants to stay in his comfy Orville house and play video games and do teen shenanigans with his friends. People who think he should be out exploring are like mum telling the brats to go outside. Get outta the hoose! Aww mom, you never let us have any fun!

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I think on some level Gordon knew he was dealing with a program and not a real person, so his actions were influenced by that no matter how "real" it felt to him.  Had he been dealing with the real person I doubt he would have tried to "delete" her boyfriend.

Having Gordon choose to undelete his romantic rival, Greg—because without Greg, Laura would not be able to create music—effectively told us that Gordon was a good guy. 
Or, at least I'm sure that was the writers' and actor's intent—that Gordon sacrifices having virtual Laura as his girlfriend so she can virtually live on as an artist.
And I enjoy that story.
But they also came close to hinting that Laura's relationship with Greg was toxic. 
But, la la laah l'lah, I can't here you (that nagging little voice in my head); I'm staying over here, basking in the warmth of this sad but lovely little love story, which is just the right amount of treacle-ness for me (I do Not watch This Is Us).

Edited March 24, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Bort]

11 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Having Gordon choose to undelete his romantic rival, Greg—because without Greg, Laura would not be able to create music—effectively told us that Gordon was a good guy. 
Or, at least I'm sure that was the writers' and actor's intent—that Gordon sacrifices having virtual Laura as his girlfriend so she can virtually live on as an artist.
And I enjoy that story.

It was that and also that without Greg influencing her to sing, one of the things that Gordon liked about Laura in the first place no longer exists and she's not the same person anymore.

[Yeah No]

27 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Having Gordon choose to undelete his romantic rival, Greg—because without Greg, Laura would not be able to create music—effectively told us that Gordon was a good guy. 

Exactly.  When he realized the implications of his actions he chose to make it right.  It wasn't just about him and what he wanted anymore.  It was more important to him for her to be her no matter how it affected him.  That's maturity and true caring, not using someone.  I don't think he realized that in the beginning as he was just going with his feelings, but that's understandable.  The point is he realized it and changed his behavior.

[tv-talk]

44 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Exactly.  When he realized the implications of his actions he chose to make it right.  It wasn't just about him and what he wanted anymore.  It was more important to him for her to be her no matter how it affected him. 

Was that it tho? Or was it he liked her as the confident woman who loved to sing at small shows and wanted that person back to "date"?

[shapeshifter]

31 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Was that it tho? Or was it he liked her as the confident woman who loved to sing at small shows and wanted that person back to "date"?

IMO, the correct answer is: All Of The Above
--as well as any below.
If they had the time to spell out every detail of Laura's life story (and perhaps of any progeny) as well as all of the alternate universe details (e.g. Laura with Greg, Laura with Gordon had he lived in her time period, Laura with some other person, etc.) there might be a more definitive moral-of-the-story.
But because this is just an A plot of a single episode, we viewers can fill in the blanks as we choose--which probably helps ratings too.  

Edited March 24, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Bort]

36 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Was that it tho? Or was it he liked her as the confident woman who loved to sing at small shows and wanted that person back to "date"?

But he couldn't "date" her. Confident Singer Laura was with Greg. Either way, Gordon wouldn't get the girl he wants.

[Yeah No]

58 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Was that it tho? Or was it he liked her as the confident woman who loved to sing at small shows and wanted that person back to "date"?

No, he knew he couldn't date her if she were with Greg and I don't think either of them would have wanted that arrangement either.  I suppose the show could have made him tell the simulator to make her break up with Greg, so that Greg's influence wouldn't have been completely wiped out, but by that point I think he realized the ultimate futility of doing that.  It still wouldn't have been her choice to break up with Greg and he would know that, hence realizing that that their relationship would have just been a fantasy, not reality.  Not that it wasn't all along, but this made him realize that all the sooner.

[Rockstar99435]

12 hours ago, Meushell said:

How would it be a violation? Whatever they found would be public records or stuff she put out there. This is the sort of thing we do now all the times. In this case, it’s someone making a point to being remembered. Gordon started out curious about Laura, the woman who lived, but then objectified her by “dating” her hologram, and even going as far as rewriting who she was to satisfy his own desires. Looking her up would have a way to show that Laura was important without Gordon, that she wasn’t just an object of his addiction. 

Maybe "violation" is too strong of a word. And for the record, it wouldn't have bothered me if a historian created the Laura Holodeck Program as a exhibit in a museum for people to visit in order to learn about the past and as part of that exhibit, the historian looked up her future and put that info on a plaque outside the exhibit so that the visitors could get the larger picture of life in the earlier 21st century. But Gordon would have been looking up her future for his own personal needs and that feels more like spying so it creeps me out. 

I get what you're saying about Gordon turning her into a digital sex toy, but I disagree because they only hooked up when her data was complete and Gordon didn't study her data in order to manipulate her into bed. He was just being himself and according to the full data, her simulation was interested in him. After he changed the data, he realized it changed her, so he undid it. I don't think he needed to look her future up to see that she was important without him. I think he realized that when saw the effect of taking Greg away and the effect when he put Greg back. Gordon learned that Laura and Greg were real people who had a life and connection that had nothing to do with Gordon and so he said goodbye. 

[Meushell]

46 minutes ago, Rockstar99435 said:

Maybe "violation" is too strong of a word. And for the record, it wouldn't have bothered me if a historian created the Laura Holodeck Program as a exhibit in a museum for people to visit in order to learn about the past and as part of that exhibit, the historian looked up her future and put that info on a plaque outside the exhibit so that the visitors could get the larger picture of life in the earlier 21st century. But Gordon would have been looking up her future for his own personal needs and that feels more like spying so it creeps me out. 

I get what you're saying about Gordon turning her into a digital sex toy, but I disagree because they only hooked up when her data was complete and Gordon didn't study her data in order to manipulate her into bed. He was just being himself and according to the full data, her simulation was interested in him. After he changed the data, he realized it changed her, so he undid it. I don't think he needed to look her future up to see that she was important without him. I think he realized that when saw the effect of taking Greg away and the effect when he put Greg back. Gordon learned that Laura and Greg were real people who had a life and connection that had nothing to do with Gordon and so he said goodbye. 

I can understand that. I agree that a historian recreating her would be far different than what Gordon ended up doing.

When I say I wanted him to look her up, I do mean to understand her as a person, to remember her as she wanted. Looking her up only for his own sake, I agree could be creepy.

[Bort]

I wouldn't have minded if Gordon looked up Laura for the idle curiosity of wondering what happened to her. But it's just as well that he didn't, because what if it turned out she'd gotten hit by a bus two weeks after she'd turned her phone over for the time capsule? With not knowing, he can just assume she had a good life and leave it at that.

[legaleagle53]

13 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I actually think what he did honored her.  I didn't see any disrespect or treating the real person like they didn't matter.  The guy had a crush, he was following his heart.  He wasn't using her as far as I could see.  I think he was attempting to get to know the real person but was confined to having to accept a facsimile of her, which admittedly was not really her but that's not how he experienced it, anyway.  His feelings for her were just as real as if they were for the real person.  And if he could have known the real person he would have, and most likely would have treated her with respect, I am sure.  I am also sure the real Laura would have been very flattered and touched to know about his feelings and how he tried to find a way to connect with her. 

Yeah, I wonder how the REAL Laura of our time would react to learning that not only had someone found her cell phone after 400 years, but he had actually been able to hack into it and use its data to recreate a facsimile of her that he fell in love with.  Would she be honored to learn this or creeped out by it?

Edited March 24, 2019 by legaleagle53

[tv-talk]

All Gordon had to do to avoid Greg was work a little faster. He met her at the party and she invited him to something a week later, he just needed to make it happen sooner and then she might not have gotten back with her ex. He restored her ex because it suited what he wanted in his sex toy, regardless of what he may have told himself. The whole notion she was so into him initially is pure holodeck fantasy to begin with, the computer knows he's the crew member in there and thus it all centers around him- that's how the holodeck works isnt it?

[tv-talk]

I was reminded of early Orville episode (maybe premier?) where Ed goes into holodeck to recruit Gordon who is in middle of some fight game where he'd programmed a nice personality into the holodeck characters he was fighting. Remember how he just killed the one who was being very affable? What if Ed had just stabbed Laura in the neck during pictionary, would it have been any different? Not one iota different. That first episode made me think they were going to use the holodeck in disturbing fashion like that, would have been very edgy. Instead they went for what's pretty standard holodeck cliche.

[Bort]

5 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

The whole notion she was so into him initially is pure holodeck fantasy to begin with, the computer knows he's the crew member in there and thus it all centers around him- that's how the holodeck works isnt it?

I guess it depends on how the user programs the scenario. Gordon originally just wanted to see what she was like, so I don't think it was likely that he specified himself as a centering character.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

All Gordon had to do to avoid Greg was work a little faster. He met her at the party and she invited him to something a week later, he just needed to make it happen sooner and then she might not have gotten back with her ex.

I'm not sure that that would have worked. As Gordon said, the reason he restored "Greg" to the program was that Greg was part of the real Laura's history and that he was responsible for inspiring and supporting Laura's passion for music and encouraging her to follow her dreams. In other words, Greg's role and his reconciliation with Laura were a part of the real Laura's actual personal history as recorded by her cell phone.  Deleting "Greg," or at least trying to prevent him and "Laura" from getting back together, would have resulted in and in fact DID result in a "Laura" who wasn't the real Laura of history, which is the Laura that Gordon had actually fallen in love with. It's like rewriting all of the biographies of Henry VIII to remove any reference to Anne Boleyn or to his break from the Catholic Church which resulted from his relationship with Anne.  It might make him more palatable to some, but it results in someone who wasn't the Henry VIII of history.

[Ceindreadh]

On 3/23/2019 at 6:26 AM, dwmarch said:

The smoking plotline was hilarious, especially seeing Bortus with a smoke hanging out of his mouth while on the bridge. Highlight reel for that moment! There were a couple of things that made me wonder though. First and foremost, although Dr. Finn examines Bortus and Klyden, she never actually says the cigarettes are hurting them in any particular way. She only mentions withdrawal. Moclans can basically eat hand grenades wrapped in barbed wire so one would think a little smoke wouldn't bother them at all. Second, the crew reacts to smoking as if it is an exotic concept but I am certain there have been many weed references on this show so it is not as if the concept should be that weird.

The problem isn't so much that cigarettes couldn't harm them physically as that the lack of cigarettes could harm them once they'd gotten addicted.  We saw how both Bortus and Klyden were acting after only a few days of exposure and Dr. Finn said that it'd only get worse. 

[The Kings Foot]

On 3/22/2019 at 5:38 PM, AnimeMania said:

If there is one thing that I can imagine Gordon practiced drawing thousands of times, it would be a penis.

For something like the movie "Star Wars" you would have Beta, VHS, Laser Disc, DVD, Blu-Ray, Digital Media, Collector's Edition, Director's Cut, 25th Anniversary, 100th Anniversary, etc., distributed in large quantities, widely around the earth.

I could imagine many forms of social media completely disappearing because they were controlled by a single company, if something happens to the company or their servers all their data might disappear.

However try finding a betamax, VHS or laser disc player right now. The laptop i bought last month doesn't even have a cd /DVD drive. We could wind up with storage devices we can't read. 

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

Deleting "Greg," or at least trying to prevent him and "Laura" from getting back together, would have resulted in and in fact DID result in a "Laura" who wasn't the real Laura of history, which is the Laura that Gordon had actually fallen in love with.

Deleting Greg completely changed Laura for obvious reasons, the Laura who'd broken up with Greg is the Laura that Gordon loved so if he'd kept them from getting back togther she'd have still been the same facsimile of a person he somehow loved. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by tv-talk

[ketose]

10 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

However try finding a betamax, VHS or laser disc player right now. The laptop i bought last month doesn't even have a cd /DVD drive. We could wind up with storage devices we can't read. 

I have an old 8 Track player, so it just depends on how much you want to want to use the older technology.

The point of the A plot is a version of "social media isn't reality" except without the social media. That's my take especially since I compared it to TNG's "Booby Trap" (the first Geordi / Leah Brahms episode). TNG also had a couple of episodes about the impact of a real person learning that someone else simulated them on the Holodeck.

This episode was a little lazy because Gordon actually gave no parameters or guidelines to the simulation. He basically just said make this phone into a girl. We don't even know how much the computer guessed at. I'm going to make a prediction now that in a season or two, the Orville will have a time travel episode, Gordon will run into the real Laura and it will be hilarious.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, ketose said:

I'm going to make a prediction now that in a season or two, the Orville will have a time travel episode, Gordon will run into the real Laura and it will be hilarious.

Or, a scifi plot with slightly fewer long-term repercussions than the viability of actual time travel is "wormhole technology" via a "time viewer where anyone opening a wormhole can view people and events from any point throughout time and space," as in Arthur C. Clarke's and Stephen Baxter's 2000 novel, The Light of Other Days ( wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Light_of_Other_Days ).

[AnimeMania]

2 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

On 3/22/2019 at 5:38 PM, AnimeMania said:

If there is one thing that I can imagine Gordon practiced drawing thousands of times, it would be a penis.

For something like the movie "Star Wars" you would have Beta, VHS, Laser Disc, DVD, Blu-Ray, Digital Media, Collector's Edition, Director's Cut, 25th Anniversary, 100th Anniversary, etc., distributed in large quantities, widely around the earth.

I could imagine many forms of social media completely disappearing because they were controlled by a single company, if something happens to the company or their servers all their data might disappear.

However try finding a betamax, VHS or laser disc player right now. The laptop i bought last month doesn't even have a cd /DVD drive. We could wind up with storage devices we can't read. 

Since they have a device that can make anything is seconds, this doesn't seem to be that big of a hurdle provided the specs were in the database. Their holodeck computer seems to be able to read the information stored on devices directly just by sitting that device in the circular area.

[Danielg342]

On 3/22/2019 at 3:01 PM, rmontro said:

Bortus and Klyden bring new meaning to domestic violence.

I don't know if there are other WWE fans here but now all I can hear is Michael Cole going "THROUGH A TABLE!@#!" after Bortus power slammed Klyden through that table.

It really did look like something out of RAW...so good work.

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I don't know if there are other WWE fans here but now all I can hear is Michael Cole going "THROUGH A TABLE!@#!" after Bortus power slammed Klyden through that table.

It really did look like something out of RAW...so good work.

I heard Mean Gene myself 😁

[benteen]

The historian creating an Interactive Laura program as part of museum exhibit would be intriguing.  Laura could explain her life and as pointed out, give an idea of what early-21st century life was like.  Laura gave permission for her phone to be used and explored so that raises no issues.

[Emma9]

On 3/24/2019 at 5:09 PM, tv-talk said:

Deleting Greg completely changed Laura for obvious reasons, the Laura who'd broken up with Greg is the Laura that Gordon loved so if he'd kept them from getting back togther she'd have still been the same facsimile of a person he somehow loved. 

That wouldn't have worked for long; even if he removed the event of their reconciliation from the simulation, there was a natural endpoint to the whole thing - the moment she stopped documenting her life via the soon-to-be-donated phone. (The times that Gordon visited her, the game night and the gig she played, etc, were presumably taken from real things that she did.) Once you moved past that point in her timeline, the computer could still make guesses and predictions about what she may or may not have gotten up to and who she might have become, but it wouldn't be particularly authentic, any more than the Gregless version was.

[Hanahope]

On 3/22/2019 at 5:58 PM, kariyaki said:

To quote Raj from The Big Bang Theory: Think about DVD players. They used to cost, like, a thousand dollars, but just the other day I used one to smash a bug.

We're getting to the point where we aren't bothering to make actual hard copies of media. A big huge EMP could wipe out all data and the only thing that will survive is disc format stuff. 

This is why I still buy some books on actual paper.

On 3/23/2019 at 8:47 AM, kariyaki said:

Gordon was shutting it off, we saw him do it one of the times. I guess it was running along in the background. 

I found it odd that Gordon hadn’t heard of Dick Van Dyke. He was watching the original Planet of the Apes movie in the last episode. None of the old movies he’s watched had Dick Van Dyke in it? Is he just a Charlton Heston fan?

Yeah I thought it odd that Gordon didn't know who Dick Van Dyke was, considering they watch old movies.

[Raja]

I saw Planet Of The Apes many times as it rotated on the syndication channel movies many times in the 70s but can't place Dick Van Dyke to his character. There is a difference between watching and the film buff who knows everything about his area of interest 

[Rockstar99435]

Wait, was Dick Van Dyke in Planet of the Apes? I thought it was Charles Heston?

[Bort]

26 minutes ago, Rockstar99435 said:

Wait, was Dick Van Dyke in Planet of the Apes? I thought it was Charles Heston?

No Dick Van Dyke in Planet of the Apes. It's Charleton Heston. So I guess it IS plausible that someone might watch old movies and not know who Dick Van Dyke is.

[Raja]

18 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

No Dick Van Dyke in Planet of the Apes. It's Charleton Heston. So I guess it IS plausible that someone might watch old movies and not know who Dick Van Dyke is.

I was assuming the thought was Gordon that knew the actors behind the ape make up, not that Dick Van Dyke was the lead of Planet Of The Apes 

[Hanahope]

No, I'm saying that Gordon likes old movies, for example, Planet of the Apes, so its curious that he hadn't seen an old movie with Dick Van Dyke in it (though I admit that other than Mary Poppins and Night at the Museum, I'm mostly familiar with DVD through his old TV shows).  Dick Van Dyke was not in Planet of the Apes, and Charlton Heston did not play an ape in the movie, so he wasn't behind any of that make-up.  

[shapeshifter]

Maybe the line was a bit of sad commentary about how Dick Van Dyke will not be remembered in the 25th century, but reality TV "stars" will be.

[Ubiquitous]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:19 PM, marinw said:

And Claire is (or was) a Robosexual. See: Futurama.

I prefer the term mechophile, from an old Quiznos commercial featuring their sandwich toaster and an employee.

[catsitter]

In this episode, John said that he had never been dumped, but I thought he told Isaac in a previous episode that he always manipulated girls into dumping him? Or does he maybe not count that as being dumped?

[Orbert]

Good theory, but it seems more likely that whoever wrote the one line didn't realize that the other line had already been said in a previous episode.  Different writers, probably (but I'm too lazy to look it up).

[Ubiquitous]

3 hours ago, catsitter said:

In this episode, John said that he had never been dumped, but I thought he told Isaac in a previous episode that he always manipulated girls into dumping him? Or does he maybe not count that as being dumped?

Is it being dumped if that was your goal?

[Danielg342]

11 hours ago, catsitter said:

In this episode, John said that he had never been dumped, but I thought he told Isaac in a previous episode that he always manipulated girls into dumping him? Or does he maybe not count that as being dumped?

If this is about the exchange with Issac, I'd say it's "technically" different. John didn't want to date who he was dating anymore so he manipulated her into dumping him, meaning he wanted to get dumped. It's not like he got dumped when he didn't want to get dumped.

[The Companion]

On 3/23/2019 at 8:36 PM, rmontro said:

It's certainly derivative of TNG in particular, although some here claim it's more like Battlestar Galactica.  I see it as more of a tribute.  Doesn't matter to me either way, as long as it's entertaining.  In fact, I wonder if part of the reason for the comedy is so that it can claim that it is a "parody" of sorts, which might protect it from lawsuits.  Or might not, I'm not a lawyer.

I don't think copyright is really an issue here. You can have similar stories, so long as one does not copy the other. While this show is similar to other shows that have gone before it, it is not the same. The characters are not the same. The plots are not the same (even if there are some elements that overlap). It's why the movie The Worst Witch didn't prevent JK Rowling from writing Harry Potter which didn't prevent Lev Grossman from writing The Magicians. There is certainly going to be some blowback if it isn't original enough, but it isn't a direct or even indirect copy and doesn't seem close to copyright issues to me.

Honestly, the comparisons drive me a little bonkers. Yes, this was like certain things that went before it (see also Her and Vanilla Sky) but I think it stands alone. I don't find the comparisons add much to analysis of the episode, personally. Maybe part of it is that I read a ton of sci fi, so it is also a lot like so many books I have read (I prefer space exploration books), so the comparison isn't as jarring to me? 

I am going to be honest that I didn't love this episode as much as most people in this thread did. I think it was partially because it didn't feel like it fit where it was put. Something about this episode felt like it was intended to go at a different point in the season, though I am not sure I would have appreciated it earlier because we had too many love interest stories. 

I actually like the discussion of what is real, who we love, etc. Admittedly, it is one of my favorite issues to examine in Westworld and similar fiction. What is identity and what makes us human/real/a person? I liked that they played it straight. Gordon clearly liked her personality. There wasn't some groundhog day scene where he was trying to get into her pants, or some creepy tweaking of who she was to make her like him. They genuinely connected and he felt like a different person with her. I enjoyed watching him try to put that into words. Why is this different than other simulations? Well, I think it was more about the effect on him. She was more real to him, their connection was more real to him. Honestly, I don't see this as a tech sex toy (though that is clearly acceptable in this society) as much as it is getting lost in a fiction and being changed by that fictional scenario. They had sex, but Gordon was hanging out with her and not just for the sex. He was playing pictionary. He wanted his friends to meet her. He was all in on this fantasy life. Beyond that, we didn't seem him reliving his favorite (or the dirty) parts. And he let the idea of her go, which again says to me that this was more than just attraction/sex.

I think it is arguable that she was the same person as the real Laura. Inevitably the computer would have had to fill in the blanks somehow. It would have had some information about her life, her friends, her interests, etc. However, there would have been huge gaps. I actually suspect the computer filled those gaps with other programs which may explain why she WAS so into him, given what we have seen of other simulations. Unfortunately for Gordon, he was dating a fictionalized version of the woman he thought he knew anyway. Does that make it better or worse? Who knows. At what point does she become real? I think we can say that Gordon would fall into the Westworld line: If you can't tell, does it matter? 

I see some discussion of finding out what happened to her. Sadly for Laura, it is not clear what he could have found about someone who lived 400 years ago. Even with better record keeping, records are eventually purged. Maybe he could have accessed vital statistics, but what would that have told him? That she died? Perhaps whether she married and divorced, though those records are not as publicly available. Unless she made it big, chances are she was largely forgotten from a record keeping standpoint. 

The smoking side-story just didn't entertain me. I suspect part of it was just being a little sick of Bortus and Klyden and their dynamic. I can't really explain it beyond that. Parts of it were funny (though I liked the moustache story better). I think it was just so different from the A Plot that I had trouble with the timing of it. 

[RedHawk]

As I’ve posted before, I watch this show imagining it is set ~100 years from now. Despite knowing the 2419 date (or whatever) I am firm on this because it makes all the 20th-21st century references more acceptably plausible.

So then I get this episode where it’s emphasized that the artifacts and Laura are from “400 years ago.” It didn’t work well for me precisely because of the many times I’ve heard the Earth-born crew members make all these references to things from the era of ~1960 to ~1990. When that time is only 100-175 years in their past, in my head that works, however, 400 years is too much of a stretch.

We didn’t get a sense that the people of 2015 seemed in any way different to Gordon than his contemporary crewmates. Aside from comments about Gordon’s clothing, nothing else made him seem “out of time” in a way we could see and maybe Laura and friends would notice. (I recall holodeck sims on ST:TNG making comments about TNG characters not getting references, idioms, etc.) 

A subpar (although well acted) main story in which there were some fun lines like the “WTF?” joke, and Bortus and Klyden were hilarious. The actors who play them are wonderfully expressive even with the prosthetics. While I enjoyed it, I don’t see myself rewatching this episode.

Edited May 1, 2019 by RedHawk

[Danielg342]

2 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

When it’s only 100-175 years in their past, in my head that works, however, 400 years is too much of a stretch.

I get what you are saying, though the writers are in a bind. Yes, we don't use lots of references from 1619 (maybe Shakespeare, but that's because we've been taught Shakespeare since the plays came out), but it's not like the writers can invent pop culture references that the characters can use to crack jokes. Setting those up would take way too much work (because you need to refer to the item several times before the audience is familiar enough with it), so, as much as it is implausible, I will accept the 21st century references because I understand the writers are in a bit of a bind.

Besides, when you think about it, even the English that the Orvillians speak is inaccurate. 400 years would mean the language would evolve a lot (think about the differences between Shakespeare's English and now), so the English on The Orville would be drastically different.

...but, we as an audience wouldn't understand it, so I let it go.

[RedHawk]

12 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

I get what you are saying, though the writers are in a bind. Yes, we don't use lots of references from 1619 (maybe Shakespeare, but that's because we've been taught Shakespeare since the plays came out), but it's not like the writers can invent pop culture references that the characters can use to crack jokes. Setting those up would take way too much work (because you need to refer to the item several times before the audience is familiar enough with it), so, as much as it is implausible, I will accept the 21st century references because I understand the writers are in a bit of a bind.

Besides, when you think about it, even the English that the Orvillians speak is inaccurate. 400 years would mean the language would evolve a lot (think about the differences between Shakespeare's English and now), so the English on The Orville would be drastically different.

...but, we as an audience wouldn't understand it, so I let it go.

Exactly. My way of letting it go is to tell myself that Seth made a mistake setting the series in 24something and that it’s actually 2125.