S14.E14: Ouroboros

[Bobcatkitten]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Which is why I'm not convinced he's dead.  Billie said that Michael would escape his mind and use him as a vessel to burn down the world. She didn't say that the two acts had to happen simultaneously.  I guess I've just always been willing to let things play out until the end before assuming.  Or, maybe the book just said that Michael had to go in the box and they'll stuff Jack in there?

Due to earlier statements that Michael isn't actually the primary villain I feel like this was a hasty wrap up of that whole storyline to move on to others. But you make good points. You give me hope.

[rue721]

14 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I was cool with Michael getting out of Dean while he was unconscious. It made it so it wasn't that Dean couldn't hack it - just circumstances. And his anger over it was well done. 

Yeah, Dean's freakout over Michael being gone was the best moment in the episode, IMO. Heart-breaking.

Second best was when Rowena scolded Sam for Jack's soul magic situation, said it sounded more like something she would do, did a weird little hair-flip and was like, "and until very recently, I was a villain."

[Myrelle]

I think Michael is dead and they're moving on to BeigeJack and Nickifer as the main baddies.

I refuse to call either one of them Big Bads, though-because they're not that at all in my estimation.

Not even close.

[ILoveReading]

All season long, I've seen spec that "maybe things aren't' what they seem," like when Michael left Dean in episode 2 for....reasons, or that maybe there was more too Dean not getting in the box but in the end it turned out what you see is what you get.

So I 100% believe Michael is dead.  Dabb and company have demonstrated they are too lazy to actually put effort into creating interesting or coherent storylines. 

They are as subtle as a sledge hammer and I see this ep as no different.

[Commando Cody]

I was creeped out by this episode. It was back to the old gory stuff they used to show.

My initial reaction after Michael escaped - Good. Everybody's dead. I never liked all those extra people in the bunker. The girl who couldn't act was a bonus death. 

I'm glad they wrapped up the Michael story. Now they con move on.  

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

It's not Dabb's style, unfortunately.

Unless Dean says it.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I'm glad they wrapped up the Michael story. Now they con move on.  

Unfortunately, it seems the majority of the fans that Dabb & Co cater to agree with this sentiment. *this is not directed at you* Unfortunately it's because they are enthralled with the nougat baby and giddily anticipating his move to the front and center. This whole season has been far more about leading up to that than any real interest in telling Michael's story through Dean. As far as that goes, it was all sizzle and no steak for this fan.

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I'm glad they wrapped up the Michael story. Now they con move on.  

But they aren' moving on. 

Spoiler

Since all indicators they are just switching back to Lucifer.

A good show runner should be capable of dealing multiple storylines,   Lucifer is currently my favorite show.  Now there is a show runner who knows what shes' doing.  The majority of the characters had individual storylines that all connected in the end.   Dabb has demonstrated he's not capable of dealing with one storyline.

[tessathereaper]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I wonder if they will ever tire of making Dean be too dumb to understand a word like liturgical.  Or be a hunter who only knows Mythology from an old sci-fi movie. 

I would love somebody to try justifying this for me. Especially in an episode where they go out of there way to give us brainy Sam. And then have Dean twice say how Sam (and Rowena) were going to figure things out. 

ETA, ha! @Lemuria and I were mind melding! 

What's even dumber is that they grew up with PASTOR JIM as one of the very few friends of the family they had.  Dean would frigging know what Liturgical meant.  It's not that rare a word esp if you've ever been anywhere near a church.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Mulva said:

The more I think about this episode, the more I like it.   Sure, they could have gone the cliched route with Dean imitating Sam's heroic self-sacrifice of Swan Song.  But having Michael cast Dean off like an old coat, then, in his moment of triumph, getting whacked by a punk kid was brilliantly subversive.

Subversive is a good word for it. Or maybe not, since they don't even pretend to respect the main character(s) of the show, never mind the fans of those characters. You're definitely not alone though - Twitter is full of people teehee-ing dumb ol' Dean's fate.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

This episode is basically catnip for "Dean is a worthless tool so haha". 

I would hope Jack starts acting like a complete asshole now so the shine comes off his nougat baby self. But unlikely. He is going to my ff list like Nickifer now. 

That bit with the vet was so random. Why was that needed? It seemed solely as a "haha, funny crackship" moment. And Rowena, Billie`s books are crap so you are probably gonna be killed by some random mofo. 

No way will Dabb harm his fangirl-candy. That Sam/Rowena scene was straight out of fanfic. I'm a little embarrassed for Yockey to have his name on the credits for this one. It's almost unfathomable to me that they completely disregard their own damn storytelling from just a few episodes ago (Billie and the books). If I didn't know better I'd swear they had to be doing it on purpose - but dudes, we are not laughing with you any more, we're laughing at you. Unfortunately, I think it's they who are laughing at us, cranking out this dreck and knowing their ratings won't change and their paychecks are safe no matter how ridiculously lame they are. Maybe it's an inside joke, seeing just how far they can go? Subversive, indeed.

7 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

What's even dumber is that they grew up with PASTOR JIM as one of the very few friends of the family they had.  Dean would frigging know what Liturgical meant.  It's not that rare a word esp if you've ever been anywhere near a church.

Or are a hunter who has spent the better part of your adult life fighting against/with half the characters of the bible.

[Pondlass1]

4 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I'm glad they wrapped up the Michael story. Now they con move on.

But with what? They haven't got much to work with.

The trials & tribulations of Luci/Nick has been done to death.  And "I's a Winchester y'all" Jack will be allowed to be about as evil as the beige outfits he wears. 

Everything's fizzled out and canon trampled on.

What a GIGANTIC missed opportunity.   Dean/Michael could've actually earned the show an Emmy nomination if they'd ran with it for a season.

[Casseiopeia]

Why is that Dabb seems to sabotage his seasons.  He sets up an interesting story, we get to the meat of it, everything is in place for some gut wrenching drama in the desperate race to the season finale....and then 6 episodes before the end the entire storyline is dumped.  Is it because Jared and Jensen will have limited availability for the remainder of the year? Is it because there is some behind the scenes upheaval happening (please be Dabb leaving please be Dabb leaving please be Dabb leaving)?  Are other writers leaving midseason?  I mean what the hell was THAT! What was the point of the first 13 episodes? WHAT WAS THE POINT!  I swear this man can't write himself out of a Dick and Jane novel.

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Or are a hunter who has spent the better part of your adult life fighting against/with half the characters of the bible. 

Or who has actually studied hundreds if not thousands, if religious texts and books, and has recited multiple exorcism rituals, is a fairly well read...

Im wondering if the show is going with Dean "missing"Michael in the same way Nick does Lucifer and that will be Dean's "storyline" for the remaining 6 episodes.

I find it nearly unbelievable that Yockey had this end in mind for Michael!Dean and Dean in general when he wrote Advanced Thanatology and Nihilism. Optimism didn't seem like a Hockey ep either IMO. This felt way more like Davy Perez for the gore, with heavy side of Dabb influence with NougatSue, than Yockey. Maybe it was even worse in it's first drafts and Yockey fixed it so his name is in the script? The only moment that seemed Yockey-esque was Dean having his voice to tell his thoughts on Sam and Cas to their faces and some of the gore.

If I didn't know it was SPN at the beginning, I would have thought it was a poor man's Dexter or Hannibal scene.

I said back when Jack was introduced, that I think he was being setup to be the spin-off.. and all these professions from NougatSue about being Lucifer's son, a hunter, a Winchester sure sounded like a tagline/intro for the Jack show which is what I think Dabb intends to do with the show, since he didn't get Wayward Sisters. (And honestly, I don't entirely believe he was ever fully invested in that. IMO, I think that was all Berens. I think Dabb, and Buck Lemming want the Lucifer/Jack show.
And,no, I don't think the Js wanting to work less means it has to be what it has become.

I was cheated and teased and lied to abiut Michael!Dean throughout this show. I am so tired now.

[Wynne88]

2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

- I don't get the ending with Jack. Where did all this power come from suddenly? I got a little whiplash that he could suddenly take out an archangel. 

I didn't understand this either.

[gonzosgirrl]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Or who has actually studied hundreds if not thousands, if religious texts and books, and has recited multiple exorcism rituals, is a fairly well read...

This too.

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And,no, I don't think the Js wanting to work less means it has to be what it has become.

It absolutely does not. They just don't care to do better, because they could.

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

(And honestly, I don't entirely believe he was ever fully invested in that. IMO, I think that was all Berens. I think Dabb, and Buck Lemming want the Lucifer/Jack show.

I don't think you're wrong here.

8 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I don't get the ending with Jack. Where did all this power come from suddenly? I got a little whiplash that he could suddenly take out an archangel. 

Straight out of Dabb's ass. Even the other archangels needed a weapon to take out another archangel. And the fight between Lucifer and Michael was supposed to have been enough to wipe out half the world. This didn't even singe the ceiling of the bunker. I guess nephilim power + soul power + borrowed archangel grace = all powerful being? Seriously, unless he goes evil (or nuclear) and has to be put in the box and then fridged or de-powered, how can he even continue to be part of the show? Talk about deus ex machina.

[starfishka]

Am so pissed. I think the writers are making fun of us, they are laughing at us. What a twist. We are smart. NOT. The only thing that can piss me off more is if Michael isn’t truly dead but is a part of Jack = Jack is Michael now. I think Jensen was fantastic as Michael. Never appreciated his acting ability more than during this short “stint”.  His Michael was so creepy, disturbing, I loved that he spoke so slowly, it was so irritating (in a good way if it makes sense). Why can´t they be more creative, break formula. Even with Jensen and Jared having more free time there are still ways to tell some new and compelling stories that are (also) about Dean and Sam. 
Could please anybody explain me once again why exactly wasn’t Michael allowed to have a beard at the beginning of the season?

Edited March 8, 2019 by starfishka
spelling

[SueB]

Plot or Plot Twist?
My first thought was “that was too easy”.  So I’m presuming that this was NOT the end of Michael and we won’t know that for the next 3 or 4 episodes.  Then I see so MANY have bought the story at face value – hook, line & sinker.  And not just the pessimists.  But also people who are normally optimistic and think highly of the show.  So, either I’m counting too much on them going for the twist or they have a new dynamic with the 20-episode season.  Either way, I’m not sold on the choice. 

**warning… entering into deep analysis mode… read the bolded for the gist and the summary for the TL;DR**

Looking at it from ‘end Michael/power Jack’ was the actual plot option:
- First, weaksauce end.  Too much hype for Michael then a ‘meh’ end. Now, I DO like the Cas/Jack speak about burning brightly and ending quickly.  And I can see that analogy as the basis of their storytelling.  But that’s a little too esoteric to play with only moderately engaged fans.  If they were going for the counterintuitive (we expect big, they gave us small) as a variation on a twist – again, not sure that satisfying for the casual fan.  And they DO need to satisfy the casual fan – not just the ones who watch the show 3 times in 3 hrs (that would be me).
- A LOT of dropped threads.  Billie’s book, cost of soul power to Jack, fragility of the multiverse construct, etc...   Unlike others, I don’t think it was all ‘sound and fury signifying nothing’.  If those items were abandoned, we at least had character dynamics that were interesting IMO around these topics.  And I personally see a SHIT TON of rich characters on my screen – as evidenced by the MOTW story at the beginning.  I can’t imagine that Dean/Cas candid conversation four years ago.  But it seems like a lot of screen time for clues that didn’t get payoff.
- Theoretically, they may have broken the season into a two-part season model: Michael the Big Bad for Part 1. Nick/the Empty/Lucifer? potentially the back half. Could lay the groundwork for 13 episode seasons (EP 13 was a one-off milestone).  So they could have ‘wrapped’ S14 at the EP14 and S14, pt2 wraps in 6 episodes.  Kinda weird tho.  Not really sure I see an advantage to the construct.
- On the positive front, IF this is all it is, the Dean gets to sleep now.  Jack is not dying.  And the randomness of the AU hunters is at an end.  I actually LIKE the idea of the boys moving onto Hunter’s Hogwarts and establishing a legacy.  But they never committed to anyone but Maggie.  So, the half-commitment was annoying – kinda glad that part is over.

On it’s a plot twist and Michael is not really dead option:
- Well, it’s a way of not have an ‘unsustainable’ plot hanging on for 6 more episodes.  Dean is already exceptionally gifted to pull this off, and is clearly suffering.  Watching that suffering is not fun until the finale.  So, this gives a break.
- It encourages me to scour thru the details – something I love. There were a TON of hints that all was not as it seemed in this episode.  The personal note to Dean (with Sam and Rowena relegated to ‘tall guy’ and ‘red headed witch’).  The Gorgon saying he couldn’t tell if Jack was the snake or the egg.  Jack KEEPING the damn snake (I’m not chill with that choice – such an obvious Lucifer reference). So we can’t say they didn’t drop some clues that something is off. And it encourages me to go deep into all the previous episodes.
- It’s not an unreasonable plot twist.  AUMichael learned from his first possession that Dean is problematic.  He thought he broke him and learned that Dean was made of sterner stuff – hubris brings AU Michael down.  And multiple weeks (months?) trapped in the freezer – he’s not risking that again. Now that he’s out, he could be DONE with Dean.  Dean is more trouble than value.  So he went after Rowena as his first choice.  Then with the confrontation with TFW 2.0 – did you notice how only Sam, Dean, & Cas were the ones not breathing, blind, and writhing on the floor.  Jack was just standing there.  Unaffected.  How.  Immune?  I don’t think so.  Which means Michael LEFT Jack standing to confront him.  And he threw pretty softball ‘strikes’ at him before Jack walked up and put his hands around Rowena’s head.  Yes, he left Rowena – but did Jack REALLY destroy him?  Or was that a light show?  Did he give Jack back some archangel grace to lull them into a false sense of security?  Is he hiding in Jack?  With Jack having burned off his soul – can Michael influence Jack and TFW think it’s just a byproduct of losing some of his soul?  IDK.  It’s also possible Michael just left.  BUT, if this IS a plot twist – my expectation is that now that Michael is free of Dean’s cage, he’s going to bide his time and hide out in Jack.  Because Jack VOLUNTARILY sucked back in the grace – to fix himself.  But that grace could EASILY include Michael.  Michael if VERY VERY good at mind manipulation.  With Dean in Nihilism, he was bold as brass.  Now he may be going sneaky until he has consolidated his thinking/plan.  And then he’ll take over Jack.  Or leave Jack and jump to Nick.  Or jump back into Dean.  In short – AUMichael freed himself from Dean’s cage and is STILL plotting his next move.  And we won’t see it coming until the last two episodes of the season. 
- BUT here’s the rub.  If the casual viewer is not suspicious, then the hue and cry of ‘plot twist out of nowhere’ will be proclaimed.  And it could very will STILL piss off more than please viewers.  So, I’m not sure it’s a great idea.  It’s consistent with Dabb’s love of the binge viewer but it’s not great for the casual weekly viewer. So, IF this is all a plot twist, I think it may be an over commitment to their own ‘cleverness’.  And I’m not sure that’s a good thing.

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  I can see either answer.  BOTH, I suspect, will not play out as well as TPTB would like.   Personally, I’m biased towards the plot twist.  It tracks with the last few seasons.  But I suspect it’s not going to be as grand a conclusion as I would have hoped.

Edited March 8, 2019 by SueB
added bolding

[sarthaz]

You are not a Winchester.

[S Cook Productions]

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

Plot or Plot Twist?
My first thought was “that was too easy”.  So I’m presuming that this was NOT the end of Michael and we won’t know that for the next 3 or 4 episodes.  Then I see so MANY have bought the story at face value – hook, line & sinker.  And not just the pessimists.  But also people who are normally optimistic and think highly of the show.  So, either I’m counting too much on them going for the twist or they have a new dynamic with the 20-episode season.  Either way, I’m not sold on the choice. 

**warning… entering into deep analysis mode… read the bolded for the gist and the summary for the TL;DR**

Looking at it from ‘end Michael/power Jack’ was the actual plot option:
- First, weaksauce end.  Too much hype for Michael then a ‘meh’ end. Now, I DO like the Cas/Jack speak about burning brightly and ending quickly.  And I can see that analogy as the basis of their storytelling.  But that’s a little too esoteric to play with only moderately engaged fans.  If they were going for the counterintuitive (we expect big, they gave us small) as a variation on a twist – again, not sure that satisfying for the casual fan.  And they DO need to satisfy the casual fan – not just the ones who watch the show 3 times in 3 hrs (that would be me).
- A LOT of dropped threads.  Billie’s book, cost of soul power to Jack, fragility of the multiverse construct, etc...   Unlike others, I don’t think it was all ‘sound and fury signifying nothing’.  If those items were abandoned, we at least had character dynamics that were interesting IMO around these topics.  And I personally see a SHIT TON of rich characters on my screen – as evidenced by the MOTW story at the beginning.  I can’t imagine that Dean/Cas candid conversation four years ago.  But it seems like a lot of screen time for clues that didn’t get payoff.
- Theoretically, they may have broken the season into a two-part season model: Michael the Big Bad for Part 1. Nick/the Empty/Lucifer? potentially the back half. Could lay the groundwork for 13 episode seasons (EP 13 was a one-off milestone).  So they could have ‘wrapped’ S14 at the EP14 and S14, pt2 wraps in 6 episodes.  Kinda weird tho.  Not really sure I see an advantage to the construct.
- On the positive front, IF this is all it is, the Dean gets to sleep now.  Jack is not dying.  And the randomness of the AU hunters is at an end.  I actually LIKE the idea of the boys moving onto Hunter’s Hogwarts and establishing a legacy.  But they never committed to anyone but Maggie.  So, the half-commitment was annoying – kinda glad that part is over.

On it’s a plot twist and Michael is not really dead option:
- Well, it’s a way of not have an ‘unsustainable’ plot hanging on for 6 more episodes.  Dean is already exceptionally gifted to pull this off, and is clearly suffering.  Watching that suffering is not fun until the finale.  So, this gives a break.
- It encourages me to scour thru the details – something I love. There were a TON of hints that all was not as it seemed in this episode.  The personal note to Dean (with Sam and Rowena relegated to ‘tall guy’ and ‘red headed witch’).  The Gorgon saying he couldn’t tell if Jack was the snake or the egg.  Jack KEEPING the damn snake (I’m not chill with that choice – such an obvious Lucifer reference). So we can’t say they didn’t drop some clues that something is off. And it encourages me to go deep into all the previous episodes.
- It’s not an unreasonable plot twist.  AUMichael learned from his first possession that Dean is problematic.  He thought he broke him and learned that Dean was made of sterner stuff – hubris brings AU Michael down.  And multiple weeks (months?) trapped in the freezer – he’s not risking that again. Now that he’s out, he could be DONE with Dean.  Dean is more trouble than value.  So he went after Rowena as his first choice.  Then with the confrontation with TFW 2.0 – did you notice how only Sam, Dean, & Cas were the ones not breathing, blind, and writhing on the floor.  Jack was just standing there.  Unaffected.  How.  Immune?  I don’t think so.  Which means Michael LEFT Jack standing to confront him.  And he threw pretty softball ‘strikes’ at him before Jack walked up and put his hands around Rowena’s head.  Yes, he left Rowena – but did Jack REALLY destroy him?  Or was that a light show?  Did he give Jack back some archangel grace to lull them into a false sense of security?  Is he hiding in Jack?  With Jack having burned off his soul – can Michael influence Jack and TFW think it’s just a byproduct of losing some of his soul?  IDK.  It’s also possible Michael just left.  BUT, if this IS a plot twist – my expectation is that now that Michael is free of Dean’s cage, he’s going to bide his time and hide out in Jack.  Because Jack VOLUNTARILY sucked back in the grace – to fix himself.  But that grace could EASILY include Michael.  Michael if VERY VERY good at mind manipulation.  With Dean in Nihilism, he was bold as brass.  Now he may be going sneaky until he has consolidated his thinking/plan.  And then he’ll take over Jack.  Or leave Jack and jump to Nick.  Or jump back into Dean.  In short – AUMichael freed himself from Dean’s cage and is STILL plotting his next move.  And we won’t see it coming until the last two episodes of the season. 
- BUT here’s the rub.  If the casual viewer is not suspicious, then the hue and cry of ‘plot twist out of nowhere’ will be proclaimed.  And it could very will STILL piss off more than please viewers.  So, I’m not sure it’s a great idea.  It’s consistent with Dabb’s love of the binge viewer but it’s not great for the casual weekly viewer. So, IF this is all a plot twist, I think it may be an over commitment to their own ‘cleverness’.  And I’m not sure that’s a good thing.

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  I can see either answer.  BOTH, I suspect, will not play out as well as TPTB would like.   Personally, I’m biased towards the plot twist.  It tracks with the last few seasons.  But I suspect it’s not going to be as grand a conclusion as I would have hoped.

I think I agree with SueB here. As much as I enjoyed the ep, the pay-off for all the "effort" we all put into Michael wasn't there...and she's right, too many dropped hints to not be SOMETHING. I'm not entirely convinced that Michael is gone (he might still be this season's big bad). After all, we got less proof that Michael is gone than we did Lucifer (and look how well that turned out?). I'm also not convinced that Jack is to be trusted now.

I mean if we take everything at face value then Michael is gone, Dean is free, and Jack is healthy. So, now Sam and Cas can be completely Happ....OMG no! ::looks at Empty keeper coming for happy Cas::

[BabySpinach]

What would be really ballsy is if everything that happened after Dean got knocked out was just a simulation created by Michael. And instead of killing the other members of TFW out in the real world, because that may still alert Dean, Michael puts them all under the same whammy as well. 

This would just be a whole new strategy to keep Dean compliant: don't mess with his memories and thoughts, but seamlessly place him into a fake reality that's indistinguishable from the real one. Cook up some half-plausible scenario of Michael's death and voila, Dean is at ease, thinking that his enemy is gone for good, and he can just go on with business as usual in Dreamland. 

Multiple episodes of Dreamland later, with occasional hints of something being off, TFW wakes up to a world that's already burning, and the rest of the season deals with that. Man oh man, I wish....

[Mulva]

I love Jack.  He really adds a lot to the show, and his heroics really saved the day. 

[Aeryn13]

I got my hopes up and was really positive - at least that this was a tailor-made solution to Michael until the Finale - after Nihilism. At this point I can`t get my hopes up again for any plot twist. The disappointment would all the more crushing. The episode played it as something to take at face value. And they usually telegraph "twists" so if it was supposed to be a plot twist to be questioned, I think the ep itself would have contained some set-up for it. 

Does it gel at all with Yockey`s own episode 10? Absolutely not. It would be ridiculous to write something like the Billie scene and then just drop it here like hot potatoes. In that vein, the episode felt like the story was supposed to go in a different direction earlier but then someone thought "eh, no, drop it, I wanna do something else". Maybe that happened, maybe not. But false hope wouldn`t be helpful to me at this point.  

[sarthaz]

Historically, when this show abruptly shifts gears mid-season and drops major plots, they've been right. I don't trust them to have a good idea on the horizon this time, but the Michael storyline was going nowhere slow. If it is indeed the end of that plot, I'm OK with that, even if they go the obvious route of Soulless Jack as Big Bad. Whatever. The show's not really good anymore, so I can't get worked up either way, but I'll be happy to drop the dead weight of AU Michael and move on.

[Bobcatkitten]

17 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Historically, when this show abruptly shifts gears mid-season and drops major plots, they've been right. I don't trust them to have a good idea on the horizon this time, but the Michael storyline was going nowhere slow. If it is indeed the end of that plot, I'm OK with that, even if they go the obvious route of Soulless Jack as Big Bad. Whatever. The show's not really good anymore, so I can't get worked up either way, but I'll be happy to drop the dead weight of AU Michael and move on.

Trying to think of an example of abruptly shifting gears like this...

[sarthaz]

18 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Trying to think of an example of abruptly shifting gears like this...

[AwesomO4000]

26 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Trying to think of an example of abruptly shifting gears like this...

Season 8 for sure. The two different parts of the season didn't even seem to have anything to do with one another - not even in tone.

Season 6 in a way. Though that turned out to be a - in my opinion really good and surprising - long plot happening in the background, the rest of the plots were kind of split down the middle with Soulless Sam first half and Grandpa Campbell fist 2/3 or so and Eve in the second half.

And edited to add: @sarthaz - why? Why would you do that to me??? ; ) - Well okay, Sam does look kinda good there, but otherwise: Why? I'm trying to pretend that season 8A was all a bad dream.

Edited March 8, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[sarthaz]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Season 8 for sure. The two different parts of the season didn't even seem to have anything to do with one another - not even in tone.

Season 6 in a way. Though that turned out to be a - in my opinion really good and surprising - long plot happening in the background, the rest of the plots were kind of split down the middle with Soulless Sam first half and Grandpa Campbell fist 2/3 or so and Eve in the second half.

And edited to add: @sarthaz - why? Why would you do that to me??? ; ) - Well okay, Sam does look kinda good there, but otherwise: Why? I'm trying to pretend that season 8A was all a bad dream.

LOL, if it helps, Season 8A was almost exclusively told in overexposed dreamlike flashback, so "bad dream" is less retconny than any given day of the Dabb regime.

[AwesomO4000]

15 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

LOL, if it helps, Season 8A was almost exclusively told in overexposed dreamlike flashback, so "bad dream" is less retconny than any given day of the Dabb regime.

Heh with added "why are these two even together at this point? Just please stop." And sadly that applied to almost all of the relationships we saw on screen in season 8A, in my opinion. Just pick one - any one - except the one relationship that it should have applied to but somehow didn't... Really, thinking about season 8 makes me need to take deep breaths and chill. Heh.

At least currently, I like the relationships between the characters ...and as much as I wonder exactly how all of this is going to pan out after this episode, I can see why the characters here are together, and I like how they interact with one another. Those were some of the best parts of this episode whereas in season 8, I dreaded the character interaction.

Edited March 8, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

I think S6 Soulless Sam plot was not a reactionary shift but a plot point that was always intended to change. Amelia plot of S8, conversely, did seem like a redirect.  

But I think they had the rest of S14 plotted out in Nov -- so IF this is a plot shift, due to fan reaction -- it's about that time.  This scripts was done and scouted before Christmas, filmed in early Jan. Filming Dates: January 7 - January 16 (from Jess' sheet) 
I DO think that killing of the hunters may be in that category (plot shift) -- I THINK it has less do to fan reaction and more due to the realities of production costs.  They just couldn't afford to give anyone other than Maggie and Jules (an homage to Jules Wilkinson of Superwiki) names.  Theya are paying 'day player' dollars to everyone else and that was apparently hard to do -- given how they kinda randomly pop in and out.

Spoiler

I also think the dump Cas's issues and heavenly problems got pushed -- once again -- after renewal. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by SueB
added comment about AU hunters

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think S6 Soulless Sam plot was not a reactionary shift but a plot point that was always intended to change.

I agree that that one seemed more planned, but I think it also was a good shift nonetheless. Soulless Sam was not sustainable... he was too dangerous and it wouldn't have made sense for Dean to either not lock him away or kill him - if he didn't know what happened to Sam - or leave Sam's soul in hell if he did know happened. So I still think it fits the definition of the shift in stories half-way through being the right thing to do as satharz was saying.

As you said in this case, though, it will remain to be seen if we have anything else on the horizon to take it's place. For me, the Eve plot and the ultimate reveal of the Castiel / Crowley team-up was really good and unexpected. I'm not sure we'll get anything like that here.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, SueB said:

(an homage to Jules Wilkinson of Superwiki) names. 

For real?

[SueB]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

For real?

For real - show folks confirmed it.  And in the Lebanon episode, they even talked about how Jules would be able to help with 'cateloguing' all the new items.  A Superwiki reference (that part not confirmed, but I buy it).

[Aeryn13]

Seeing as starting with episode 10 they put in all kinds of clues and story teases, Michael locked up in Dean`s head and Billie`s books, the box etc, they had to know how weird it would be to abruptly drop it all in episode 14. It couldn`t have been due to fan reaction to those particular things since they knew 10 wouldn`t air until after the winter hiatus. So that looks like amateur hour. But I guess they were all okay with that? 

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

For real - show folks confirmed it.  And in the Lebanon episode, they even talked about how Jules would be able to help with 'cateloguing' all the new items.  A Superwiki reference (that part not confirmed, but I buy it).

It's cool how they do that.

I still love Damien and Barnes (from "The Real Ghostbusters" and named after two of the reviewers/moderators of the old Television Without Pity site. Of course real Barnes was a woman and they looked nothing like the characters, but heh - also part of the show's humor.)

Edited March 8, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

40 minutes ago, SueB said:

For real - show folks confirmed it.  And in the Lebanon episode, they even talked about how Jules would be able to help with 'cateloguing' all the new items.  A Superwiki reference (that part not confirmed, but I buy it).

Interesting. I'm not big on singling out fans or groups of fans, but the Superwiki is a real asset to fandom, so that's cool I guess.

[BabySpinach]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Seeing as starting with episode 10 they put in all kinds of clues and story teases, Michael locked up in Dean`s head and Billie`s books, the box etc, they had to know how weird it would be to abruptly drop it all in episode 14. It couldn`t have been due to fan reaction to those particular things since they knew 10 wouldn`t air until after the winter hiatus. So that looks like amateur hour. But I guess they were all okay with that? 

That's certainly what it looks like right now. But the first half of this season did just fine with sprinkling in a few hints that Michael was up to some shit and then following through on it. Hell, Billie's return in 14.10 was telegraphed back in 13.19, so these writers clearly have an ability to carry plot threads along multiple episodes (and seasons). Dean's death books are a much bigger deal than any of that was, and I just don't see how 14.10 and its followups can possibly coexist in the same narrative/thematic continuity as 14.14. 

This isn't like Samelia, a soapy subplot that had nothing to do with the mytharc and at least got a conclusive ending. There was no giant, honking Chekhov's gun like Dean's changed fates (which affects the entire SPN multiverse!) that was never fired. I just can't accept that Dean's part in Michael's story is definitively over, at least not yet.

So I'll just huddle in my corner muttering theories to myself until the other shoe drops (or, more likely, doesn't). Lol. 

[gonzosgirrl]

@BabySpinach I really want to hope you're right, I'm just not sure I'm willing to set myself up to be disappointed again. If last night's episode wasn't a killing blow to my obsession for this show, it was a good hard kick in the nads (so to speak, lol).

[Aeryn13]

I really don't think there is a twist to the "twist" coming. The episode was pretty straight forward. Stupid but straight forward. 

[ILoveReading]

Season 6 is a good example of an abrupt shift in plot.  Sera Gamble herself said that Sam was supposed to be souless the whole season.  But it was dropped because it went over like a lead balloon.   I even remember Jensen blowing the twist.  In an interview he said said he begged Sera to give Sam his soul back before it was revealed he was souless.   I never found the 2nd half really matched things that were revealed in the 2nd half.  The biggest WTF was Cas being the one to free Sam from the cage.   How is a lowly angel able to get in the cage when we were told that it takes someone on the level of death to do that.  

That was also the first time Jensen spoke out about his displeasure at the writing, and I remember Singer commenting that because they plan so far ahead it, changing gears is a slow process, like turning a cruise ship around. 

I don't care if its not sustainable.  I would have liked the see the storyline play out on screen.  It would have given Jensen a great acting opportunity.   If people want Dean to be able to sleep they just have to watch Damaged goods where Dean was snoring away.  He looked to be sleeping pretty soundly to me.   He was also sleeping in ep 12.  It was a nightmare about the box that work him, not Michael pounding his head.  So the whole I can;t sleep thing seems to come out of no where.  

If Sam can take care of the demon problem by stomping his foot and yelling boo, the writers could have given up more Dean keeping an arch angel in his head  for a few weeks longer.  Rowena could have found a spell to secure the door, not permanently but something to buy them more time and we see Michael having to switch gears and come up with a better plan then just pounding on the door.  

I hated the way Michael blew off Dean.  If anything, given how strong he is, Michael should have killed him or left him comatose.  There was no good storyline reason not too.  Michael should be furious with Dean.   Or at the very least he should have doubled down on his desire to crush him.  He know he could do that by killing Sam and/or Cas.  I don't care what the reason, Michael just blowing off Dean shouldn't happen when Dean's his true vessel.   He should want revenge.  It just felt like "your no longer part of this story"

Edited March 8, 2019 by ILoveReading

[rue721]

Yeah, I think the shocking twist was Michael getting killed.

I don't think there's going to be another shocking twist undoing it?

[AwesomO4000]

52 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The biggest WTF was Cas being the one to free Sam from the cage.   How is a lowly angel able to get in the cage when we were told that it takes someone on the level of death to do that.  

I think the point was that Castiel kind of didn't free Sam from the cage. He got Sam's body, which very well could have been ejected from the cage - or at least the secure portion of it - by Lucifer or the cage itself. Lucifer had Sam's soul in the cage... he didn't need the "meatsuit."*** It shouldn't have been possible to get Sam out, so that Cas was able to do so should have been a big neon sign that something was rotten in Denmark.

Killing Michael here seems similarly too easy, but I don't know if it will play out as such or stand as shown. I know if it were me, I'd be pretty suspicious of Jack's confident declaration that Michael is "dead." Does he really have the experience or knowledge to know that for sure?

*** It actually makes sense that real bodies don't belong in hell, and would more likely than not be ejected or not protected or held there (in other words, be fairly easy to get out of hell). It's not people's bodies that end up in hell, it's their souls that do, even in this verse. (My theory is that the souls get a "hell body" ...which is why we saw Dean chained up when he ended up in hell. Because his actual body was buried in Pontiac - which why, we still don't know.)

Edited March 8, 2019 by AwesomO4000
because I should at least try to get Shakespeare sort of right, I suppose

[bozodegama]

If your going to kill Michael, have Dean (or Sam or Cass) stab him in his freaking face, Zachariah style.  Problem solved.  Everyone goes out for ice cream and strippers.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

If your going to kill Michael, have Dean (or Sam or Cass) stab him in his freaking face, Zachariah style.  Problem solved.  Everyone goes out for ice cream and strippers.

They can't. He can only be killed by an archangel blade wielded by an archangel.  That's canon from last season.  If there's one thing I can't forgive it's canon violation.  Which is why I'm maintaining that he's still alive.

[ZennyKenny]

ALSO: Why was everyone such an incompetent fighter in this episode? It was so bad that bordered on physical comedy. Even wifey was making fun of Sam for just strolling up to the bad guy and getting his ass handed to him.

[ZennyKenny]

7 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

What a GIGANTIC missed opportunity.   Dean/Michael could've actually earned the show an Emmy nomination if they'd ran with it for a season.

Dean as Michael MADE this season for me. I wold have loved to have seen it pay out throughout the entire season.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

What would be really ballsy is if everything that happened after Dean got knocked out was just a simulation created by Michael. And instead of killing the other members of TFW out in the real world, because that may still alert Dean, Michael puts them all under the same whammy as well. 

This would just be a whole new strategy to keep Dean compliant: don't mess with his memories and thoughts, but seamlessly place him into a fake reality that's indistinguishable from the real one. Cook up some half-plausible scenario of Michael's death and voila, Dean is at ease, thinking that his enemy is gone for good, and he can just go on with business as usual in Dreamland. 

Multiple episodes of Dreamland later, with occasional hints of something being off, TFW wakes up to a world that's already burning, and the rest of the season deals with that. Man oh man, I wish....

Take my money now.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

don't care what the reason, Michael just blowing off Dean shouldn't happen when Dean's his true vessel.   He should want revenge.  It just felt like "your no longer part of this story" 

The only hope I have left is that Dean was his perfect vessel and he is still OG! Michael's true vessel. I have a stupid faint hope that Dean decides to go to the Cage and offer himself to OG! Michael if AU Michael is not really most sincerely deadand has possessed Jack instead.

[Res]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The only hope I have left is that Dean was his perfect vessel and he is still OG! Michael's true vessel. I have a stupid faint hope that Dean decides to go to the Cage and offer himself to OG! Michael if AU Michael is not really most sincerely deadand has possessed Jack instead.

You know that's definitely not happening with Dean under Singer and Dabb. Maybe with Sam but not with Dean.

[FlickChick]

18 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

So Michael's threat that he would leave Dean a vegetable amounted to nothing, too. And to add insult to injury, Michael possessed fucking ROWENA and apparently rejected his True Vessel. We feared this when 14.09 was about to air, but I suppose this forum just thought a little farther ahead. HOW IS IT that Yockey wrote both Nihilism and Ouroborus?! He directly contradicted his own character and plot points multiple times. 

As I mentioned in the BvJ thread, I think Yockey was told what to write by Dabb: "Write a MOTW that gets Dean's head smashed, and then get Michael out of Dean's head and into another vessel. Then have Jack attack Michael and take in his grace and become a powered-up Archangel/nephilim. You might even want him to declare himself a Winchester and then spread his beautiful wings. Got that? Good". FUCK YOU DABB.

[ZennyKenny]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

- It’s not an unreasonable plot twist.  AUMichael learned from his first possession that Dean is problematic.  He thought he broke him and learned that Dean was made of sterner stuff – hubris brings AU Michael down.  And multiple weeks (months?) trapped in the freezer – he’s not risking that again. Now that he’s out, he could be DONE with Dean.  Dean is more trouble than value.  So he went after Rowena as his first choice.  Then with the confrontation with TFW 2.0 – did you notice how only Sam, Dean, & Cas were the ones not breathing, blind, and writhing on the floor.  Jack was just standing there.  Unaffected.  How.  Immune?  I don’t think so.  Which means Michael LEFT Jack standing to confront him.  And he threw pretty softball ‘strikes’ at him before Jack walked up and put his hands around Rowena’s head.  Yes, he left Rowena – but did Jack REALLY destroy him?  Or was that a light show?  Did he give Jack back some archangel grace to lull them into a false sense of security?  Is he hiding in Jack?  With Jack having burned off his soul – can Michael influence Jack and TFW think it’s just a byproduct of losing some of his soul?  IDK.  It’s also possible Michael just left.  BUT, if this IS a plot twist – my expectation is that now that Michael is free of Dean’s cage, he’s going to bide his time and hide out in Jack.  Because Jack VOLUNTARILY sucked back in the grace – to fix himself.  But that grace could EASILY include Michael.  Michael if VERY VERY good at mind manipulation.  With Dean in Nihilism, he was bold as brass.  Now he may be going sneaky until he has consolidated his thinking/plan.  And then he’ll take over Jack.  Or leave Jack and jump to Nick.  Or jump back into Dean.  In short – AUMichael freed himself from Dean’s cage and is STILL plotting his next move.  And we won’t see it coming until the last two episodes of the season. 

See, I LOVE this idea! But I really have my doubts as to whether the writers can pull this off. I hope I'm wrong.