S09.E12: Guardians

[nodorothyparker]

Airdate 2019.03.03

Quote

While leadership in one community is tested, the true nature of another group comes into focus.  A mission to rescue a friend has deadly consequences.

MOD NOTE:

This thread is for discussion of the episode.  Not spoilers from elsewhere, what happened in the comics, or news of cast comings and going.  If you didn't see it happen onscreen, it doesn't belong here and will be removed.

[Bryce Lynch]

Alpha is a lot cuter in her walker mask.

[AngelaHunter]

I just want to say that the person who came up with the Live Posting Thread is a genius. I'm still watching shit, but at least it's fun in a MST3K kind of way. Boo-ya. 

[oakville]

I am confused about how the walkers attacked the Whisperer camp. Aren't the Whisperers supposed to be experts at dealing with Walkers?

[OrigamiNightmare]

10 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I just want to say that the person who came up with the Live Posting Thread is a genius. I'm still watching shit, but at least it's fun in a MST3K kind of way. Boo-ya. 

I want more shows to have a live posting thread

[AngelaHunter]

12 minutes ago, oakville said:

Aren't the Whisperers supposed to be experts at dealing with Walkers?

I guess not, after all. New Rule?

[Nashville]

14 minutes ago, oakville said:

I am confused about how the walkers attacked the Whisperer camp. Aren't the Whisperers supposed to be experts at dealing with Walkers?

Not when they’re off the clock, apparently. 😉

[Yakima]

Can't take any more of Michonne's scowling ugly face.  She and Henry need to go.

[Audpaud]

Overall good ep with a few slow spots. I get the build up to the Fair, and exploring all these new characters, but they really do need to pick up the pace.

[diebartdie]

What even was that? I mean besides boring. And weird. And confusing. And so so so very stupid? No one, anywhere, ever needs to hear anything at all from Negan. NEVER SHOW SO STOP. Who the frillyheck cares about Rosita and her harem of studly (and portly) men? NO ONE SHOW. Ugh. I love Aaron though, he is always and forever ride or die for the strong leader! First Rick, now Michonne, good for him (and Gracie is super cute!)

I am sorry to hear The Kingdom is suffering. Never would have known that from last week's episode but whatever, THE KINGDOM MUST NOT FALL. So say we all. Or not, whatever, just save some of the cooler characters, put everyone all together again and SCENE!

I was dreading this episode. It felt like my choices tonight were stories of real child abuse (Leaving Neverland) or a story of fake child abuse (this episode and all the cruddy shit Elpha did / does to Lydia). I chose the boring one obviously. ENough about me though, let's talk about how the MASTER WALKER WRANGLERS got all snuck up on by THE HERD OF WALKERS THEY KEEP AS PETS. Whattheeverlovingshit. WHAT THE SHIT SHOW. Seriously, shit show.

I guess if the ZA could turn people cannibal within 35 seconds of the beginning of said ZA (see: Terminus) then sure, a massive group f people will WILLINGLY put rotten corpse flesh all over their faces and just WALLOW in disease causing FILTH. SURE THING SHOW.  What the fuck, you would think the source material was a damn COMIC BOOK or something.

Weirdly, I'm not exactly hating the show right now. Im sort of baffled by it I guess. It's like when people dress their dogs up like ballerinas. Weird but who am I to judge? I'm here for the special effects makeup. And Michonne looking like she's bout to rip SOMEBODY's head off. And you guys, yall are the best.

[tennisgurl]

Seriously, what happened with Michonne? Why is she so down on talking to people outside of Alexandria and eternally pissed at everyone? Is this all over Rick, or is it because Maggie and her people were still salty about her keeping Negan alive and that just escalated? I dont get it! 

I did love when she sent Judith to her room because "she needed a minute" that was really relatable! You take those few seconds before you deal with your kid!

So the zombie faces are super weird and creepy, and like to whisper all of the time. Yep, got them down! Alpha does do a pretty good job of being scary, even though her bad ass cred seems to be killing people when they're surrounded by people who listen to the murderer, and talking about how she almost let her daughter die that one time to teach her a lesson. Yeah, I can get why baby Alpha is pretty twitchy. So, how do they keep those faces so fresh? Do they get new ones, or do they dry them out?

Glad that the quest for the dumbest kid in the ZA is over quickly! Not a bad episode, still setting some stuff up for later, but not really memorable or action packed. And I was happy to see Aaron get some good screen time in, the poor guy just keeps on keeping on all the while terrible things just keep happening to him. Plenty of lame bad guys would have snapped a few dead lovers ago, but not Aaron! 

[blueiris]

So they took Carl from us and give us Henry instead??? Everything about the character and the actor irks. The kids weren't raised in the zombie era to follow directions or suffer huge consequences? Henry has broken rule after rule and put peoples lives at risk. And the actor isn't selling any of it. I had hopes for Alpha pulling a Negan with the knife and putting an end to his stupid self. 

[SamBeckett]

One really important question: Do you think there was ever a time Alpha accidentally sat on her sawed-off shotgun?

Okay, one more really important question: Do you think people in the ZA go into a clothing store with something particular in mind?  For instance, did Gaberial duck into a hat store one day, saying, “I want a hat that will make me look like Billy Bad-ass, even though I am a minister?”

Quick follow-up question: Did he succeed?  

[CletusMusashi]

19 minutes ago, SamBeckett said:

Okay, one more really important question: Do you think people in the ZA go into a clothing store with something particular in mind?  For instance, did Gaberial duck into a hat store one day, saying, “I want a hat that will make me look like Billy Bad-ass, even though I am a minister?”

Quick follow-up question: Did he succeed?  

Whenever he dresses like he's in a spaghetti western, I figure it must be Tuesday.

[diebartdie]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Rosita and her harem of studly (and portly) men

Quoting Icemiser69 who quoted me. I'm wondering if the ZA would really have that many surplus men? Doesn't it seem like maybe there would be more women than men (patriarchy is strong   for various reasons), there would be more young people than old, more able-bodied than disabled, etc. So I really dont care how great in the sack any woman would be, no way could she hog up all the dudes. More like the dudes would have to be shared around. Just my "first thing in the morning while drinking coffee" thought.

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

Quoting Icemiser69 who quoted me. I'm wondering if the ZA would really have that many surplus men? Doesn't it seem like maybe there would be more women than men (patriarchy is strong   for various reasons), there would be more young people than old, more able-bodied than disabled, etc. So I really dont care how great in the sack any woman would be, no way could she hog up all the dudes. More like the dudes would have to be shared around. Just my "first thing in the morning while drinking coffee" thought.

Hard to say.  I could see there being more men than women, if we assume men on average or better equipped to fight off walkers, fight off enemies and if it came down to it, fight off women and children for food, water. etc.

That said, in places like Alexandria, Kingdom and Hilltop where they have tried to reboot civilization, you would assume that all people would be valued and  men would act more as protectors than predators, so I think the numbers might be more or less equal.  

I'm not sure how big an impact it would have, but I suspect women dying in childbirth would be much more common in those primitive conditions.

I would think roving gangs like the Wolves, Claimers and Whisperers would be mostly male.   I think in such brutal groups the men would exploit the weaker women and would steal their food and supplies and only the stronger women would survive.  

[nodorothyparker]

As much as a whole lot about the Whisperers really doesn't make sense and it feels like the show has basically done the emoji shrug on that, their psychology is weirdly fascinating to me.  They're maybe 10 or 11 years out at this point and they're still living in very rudimentary camps in the woods similarly to how CDB did in the first weeks afterward.  They haven't built anything or acquired much of anything in all that time apparently.  They really are living little better than animals, and that's before you get to the whole wearing a rotted corpse skin on your face as you spend the bulk of your time stumbling around aimlessly.  Their entire mantra seems to be that they don't go back for anyone, they don't save anyone, they let anyone who isn't strong enough to keep up whether it be sick or children die as they think the new nature intends.  So what is the appeal of this?  How do this many people let this woman convince them to follow her?  It's not hard to imagine that most of these people were part of survivors' groups and maybe joined communities at some point only to see those places fail or be overrun.  Are we to think they were so broken or demoralized by those failures that this seems like a palatable solution?  That there's safety in being part of such a group living as stinking corpses as long as you're strong enough to do it?  How do they see that working out long term?  

It's amusing, as someone said in the live thread, that after years of complaining about endless scenes shot in the dark where we couldn't see anything, we're finally getting more daylight scenes only for everybody to be whispering where we can't understand anything that's being said.  And the Negan full backbend lean has been replaced by the shoulders hunched zombie cosplay walk that has to be just as hard on the back.  

As mouthy as she may be I'm seriously laughing that Judith despite settling in with Michonne as her official mom after spending her early years being passed off to whoever the designated baby carrier was that week, is every bit Lori's daughter.  Yes, I know Negan was a very bad man who did very bad things, but he pays attention to me.  He listens to me.  I loved Michonne sending her to her room because she needed "a minute" after Judith telling her things she didn't want to hear.  Yep.  Been there, done that.

I don't really care all that much about Rosita or her triangle or quadrangle or whatever's going on there, but I am a little surprised we haven't seen more poly situations or unconventional arrangements develop in this universe with the shortage of suitable partners and where so much has to be communal by necessity anyway.  I realize that's probably as much about the viewership that used to be so quick to brand any woman who'd slept with more than one man a whore than anything else though.

You really would think with Carol as a mother, Henry would be tougher than this or at least less easily horrified by a little bloody mayhem happening in front of him.  That he isn't again speaks to how this generation has spent its formative years growing up behind walls.

[mightysparrow]

@diebartdie and @tennisgurl; you both said it better than I could have.

I agree with all of those who are pointing out that Aaron is becoming an MVP of the ZA.  He keeps his head down, supports his leader and steps up whenever he needs to.  All the while raising a little girl who appears to not have a sassy bone in her body (it's early days though).

I agree with @blueiris 100%. It seems that Henry doesn't give a fuck about how his actions will affect the people who put their lives on the line to save his worthless ass, over and over again.  I can't see how a child like that has survived this long.  Maybe a lot of people have died for his sake.  And I know it's not a popular opinion but I'm putting a lot of this on Carol.  She's learned some very hard lessons on what happens to children in the ZA; her man is busy cosplaying.  But Carol is one of the most entitled people in all the communities and I think she's passed it on to her kid.  Henry wasn't like that when he was hanging with Morgan.

I don't know what to say about the Whisperers.  I think they're a waste of time and a waste of a good actress.  I hope Morton is getting PAID.

Edited to add:  Carol isn't the only one dropping the ball when it comes to the kiddies.  Michonne is the dictator of Alexandria but she doesn't know that her kid hangs out with a monster.  I can't believe a child raised by Michonne would be so stupid and careless.  And then I remember who her BIRTH parents are and it makes a lot more sense.

Edited March 4, 2019 by mightysparrow
Can't let Michonne off the hook

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

You really would think with Carol as a mother, Henry would be tougher than this or at least less easily horrified by a little bloody mayhem happening in front of him.  That he isn't again speaks to how this generation has spent its formative years growing up behind walls.

Wasn't Henry involved in a lot of fighting before the time jump?

I think the writers have written a lot of "Generation Z" as weak, but I don't agree with the idea that the generation that grew up in or were born during the ZA would be weaker.  I think they would be stronger.  Their parents spent most of their lives in comfort where they never faced life and death situations.  The new generation grew up in danger and deprivation and should be more used to it and have better survival skills.

[AngelaHunter]

13 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

In his younger days, wasn't Henry the one that killed someone that killed his brother or something like that?  It is hard to believe he got that soft in six years.

Yes, he shoved a pointy stick right through Gavin who was in mid-monologue, IIRC. He was still an annoying brat then, sassing the grownups, getting into mischief and running off and needing rescue. Gee, that boy hasn't changed at all, has he? I can't help but ponder someone who knows nothing of TWD, wandering into the live chat and seeing all these people clamoring for the violent death of a post-pubescent. The notion tickles me. Hee.

9 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

They're maybe 10 or 11 years out at this point and they're still living in very rudimentary camps in the woods similarly to how CDB did in the first weeks afterward.

  I notice they mostly have pretty new-looking, tidy pants though. It's absurd to think that in their years of wandering, they never happened upon any of the settlements and wanted to join them. I guess they prefer living like primitive nomads at a bare subsistence level (although none of them appear to be going hungry).

[nodorothyparker]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Wasn't Henry involved in a lot of fighting before the time jump?

I think the writers have written a lot of "Generation Z" as weak, but I don't agree with the idea that the generation that grew up in or were born during the ZA would be weaker.  I think they would be stronger.  Their parents spent most of their lives in comfort where they never faced life and death situations.  The new generation grew up in danger and deprivation and should be more used to it and have better survival skills.

Henry was the little psycho kid who ran middle manager Savior Gavin through and then took off after the fleeing Saviors by himself.  Even the other Saviors recognized that he was kind of off.

You would think this generation would be stronger, considering this is the only world they've known or probably clearly remember by now, wouldn't you?  But we keep seeing these kids, like the teens at Hilltop who thought it was a good idea to keep a walker in a pit as a pet, sheltered to the point that they seem to have no practical survival skills or common sense about it at all.  The flip side of course is at Alexandria, where Judith is out roaming the woods by herself with her gun and hanging out with Negan with none of the adults seemingly knowing or caring.

[tiredofwork]

I can't remember how Henry became Daryl's problem anyway.  Dude has done nothing but create headache for Daryl.   If I were he, first place I would go after this episodes rescue is straight to wherever the fuck Carol is and drop that snotty "Bae Bae" kid (see comedian Robin Harris routine) off to her.

[SamBeckett]

Okay, maybe the number of Walkers have decreased (though there's no proof of that, but you would think that given what we know about body decomposition). Conversely, given human nature at its rawest and finest (said jokingly), is a cruel species, there are a lot of bad hombres out there, roaming, and killing, and pillaging.

Which leads to my question: Do you find some walls to live behind . . . or stay in the open woods, with little to no defenses???

Anyone? Would any Whisperer like to defend their position on this point and if so, please speak up because I cannot hear your damn whispers?!?

Edited March 4, 2019 by SamBeckett

[tiredofwork]

Quote

Do you find some walls to live behind . . . or stay in the open woods, with little to no defenses???

I have always been "out of the box" on this one.  I would be as northerly as possible, where there is cold/snow and hilly.   My theory is that 1) was always less densely populated 2) there would be no reason game to eat would not be plentiful because there would be nobody hunting them and they should breed enough to keep attrition due to natural causes at a minimum.  3) because in cold/snow the walker herds would be significantly slowed and easily tracked.

[AngelaHunter]

44 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I don't really care all that much about Rosita or her triangle or quadrangle or whatever's going on there, but I am a little surprised we haven't seen more poly situations or unconventional arrangements develop in this universe with the shortage of suitable partners and where so much has to be communal by necessity anyway.  I realize that's probably as much about the viewership that used to be so quick to brand any woman who'd slept with more than one man a whore than anything else though.

"Rosita and Her Menage a Trois" interests me not at all, but if there is an aim to increase the population, it would make more sense for one man to be with several women, and not the other way around.  I mean, no matter how many men a woman is gettin' it on with, there will still be only one baby born with long intervals in between. Maybe they are just unclear on the concept.

[mightysparrow]

I don't know what I'd do without the folks on this board. I do know I wouldn't be watching this shitty show, so AMC owes Previously TV a piece of the action.

I agree with those that say the second generation should be stronger.  They never had the mod cons. I'd still be mourning flush toilets.  And people who have been fighting from the cradle SHOULD be better at it than adults who had to learn.  We've seen characters become fighters. I'm curious about how Eugene got over his squeamishness. 

Henry has always been a psycho and what makes it 100 times worse is that the actor who plays him is crap. Chandler was always a good actor.

[SamBeckett]

4 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

I have always been "out of the box" on this one.  I would be as northerly as possible, where there is cold/snow and hilly.   My theory is that 1) was always less densely populated 2) there would be no reason game to eat would not be plentiful because there would be nobody hunting them and they should breed enough to keep attrition due to natural causes at a minimum.  3) because in cold/snow the walker herds would be significantly slowed and easily tracked.

I hear you. And going to the high point is always best. And having snow certainly makes it easy to keep track of comings and goings. But then the downside is obvious—the bitter cold makes surviving more difficult. And fires would make finding you easier for the Negan-types AND the Walker/Whisperer types. 

At the beginning of the ZA, I'd stake out claim to the nearest COSTCO. Then from there, and probably quickly, things would go from bad to worse.

[Lady Iris]

So I will add this ep to last weeks ep in the dvr file of I'll save it but probably wont watch because I have you fine folks to spare me from an hour of metza metz tv. I thank you.

[SamBeckett]

4 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

"Rosita and Her Menage a Trois" interests me not at all, but if there is an aim to increase the population, it would make more sense for one man to be with several women, and not the other way around.  I mean, no matter how many men a woman is gettin' it on with, there will still be only one baby born with long intervals in between. Maybe they are just unclear on the concept.

Has Kirkman ever been with a woman? Are women allowed in his basement?

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, mightysparrow said:

I don't know what I'd do without the folks on this board. I do know I wouldn't be watching this shitty show, so AMC owes Previously TV a piece of the action.

I agree with those that say the second generation should be stronger.  They never had the mod cons. I'd still be mourning flush toilets.  And people who have been fighting from the cradle SHOULD be better at it than adults who had to learn.  We've seen characters become fighters. I'm curious about how Eugene got over his squeamishness. 

Henry has always been a psycho and what makes it 100 times worse is that the actor who plays him is crap. Chandler was always a good actor.

It was really stupid to write off Coral and basically give his slot to Henry.  Coral was a much better character and played by a better actor.  Plus, the time jump would have played perfectly with Riggs' having grown into a young man. They had to recast Henry to keep that crappy character on the show and give him a bigger role.  

[Ohwell]

I haven't watched much this season, but all I can say is, Samantha Morton must have been desperate for a paycheck.   

[mightysparrow]

25 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

I can't remember how Henry became Daryl's problem anyway.  Dude has done nothing but create headache for Daryl.   If I were he, first place I would go after this episodes rescue is straight to wherever the fuck Carol is and drop that snotty "Bae Bae" kid (see comedian Robin Harris routine) off to her.

Agreed. I guess Daryl is doing it for Carol's sake but he doesn't owe her his life or the lives of his community.

The only plus side is that searching for Henry has brought Daryl and Connie together. I'm eating at the Captain's table of that ship.

[diebartdie]

OK, just finished walking my dog and had another thought. SO, Kirkman has claimed time and again that smearing walker guts is not a long term deterrent due to viscera drying out. Last night, we saw the whisperer camp and they were CLEARLY drying out skins and faces and whatnot. SO WHICH IS IT KIRKMAN? Maybe he's saying only human skin leather works? SKIN BUT NOT INTESTINES. Gah, Im sorry, this episode has turned me into a shouty, shouty woman.

2 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Daryl and Connie together. I'm eating at the Captain's table of that ship.

such a quiet ship that would be.

[mightysparrow]

2 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I haven't watched much this season, but all I can say is, Samantha Morton must have been desperate for a paycheck.   

It doesn't make a lick of sense.  I would think an actor of her calibre would be above TWD.  

[nodorothyparker]

7 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

"Rosita and Her Menage a Trois" interests me not at all, but if there is an aim to increase the population, it would make more sense for one man to be with several women, and not the other way around.  I mean, no matter how many men a woman is gettin' it on with, there will still be only one baby born with long intervals in between. Maybe they are just unclear on the concept.

If the aim is increasing the population, sure, the traditional polygamous setup of one man and multiple women is the ideal.  At times we've wondered if first the strange hospital abducts Beth to do chores story and then Negan and his Robert Palmer harem were going that way, and of course once upon a time that's where people were hoping Tara would mix in with the interminable Glenn and Maggie, but we haven't seen the show make any serious attempts at addressing the repopulation issue at all.  Which now that we've put it out there will probably happen in season 17 when the grown up adopted Whisperer baby leads a poly cult to breed more zombie theater cosplayers.

I just find it interesting that it hasn't seriously come up before now in a very depopulated world.  But maybe they figure they don't need to what with replacement kids seemingly growing on trees or just laying around on the ground.  

[Boofish]

I'm not sure why they continue to put lives at risk and use resources for Henry. I would go back to the Kingdom and tell Carol and Ezekiel what's going on and good luck finding their little ungrateful snot of a kid

[Bryce Lynch]

24 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

If the aim is increasing the population, sure, the traditional polygamous setup of one man and multiple women is the ideal.  At times we've wondered if first the strange hospital abducts Beth to do chores story and then Negan and his Robert Palmer harem were going that way, and of course once upon a time that's where people were hoping Tara would mix in with the interminable Glenn and Maggie, but we haven't seen the show make any serious attempts at addressing the repopulation issue at all.  Which now that we've put it out there will probably happen in season 17 when the grown up adopted Whisperer baby leads a poly cult to breed more zombie theater cosplayers.

I just find it interesting that it hasn't seriously come up before now in a very depopulated world.  But maybe they figure they don't need to what with replacement kids seemingly growing on trees or just laying around on the ground.  

Would polygamy really grow the population more rapidly?  I would think that, assuming there were enough husbands/lovers/impregnators for every woman of child bearing age, it wouldn't matter if they each had one man or if there were 5 or 10 women to a man.

The monogamous model would produce just as many offspring, each father would have fewer to provide for, and there would be much more genetic diversity among the offspring, which would be critical in repopulating from a small group of survivors.   The increased inbreeding as the result of a polygamous system would likely cause a lot of genetic defects.   

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Plus, if you run out of ammo, you can pelt the walkers with snow balls, or lead them on to a pond of thin ice and watch them fall through.  Of course, during spring thaw, they would just walk right back out again.

And you could make spears and javelins out of  icicles. :)

I actually would be cool (no pun intended) to see people trying to survive the ZA in a much colder climate.   

Edited March 4, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[SamBeckett]

17 minutes ago, Boofish said:

I'm not sure why they continue to put lives at risk and use resources for Henry. I would go back to the Kingdom and tell Carol and Ezekiel what's going on and good luck finding their little ungrateful snot of a kid

A sudden thought: You know, it's irritating when a show's plot revolves around someone on the "good team" (in this case, Henry) doing something stupid. It is SOOO contrived. And it makes all the characters dumb. What I mean by that is that Henry does something stupid (a whole series of them, in fact), which then causes Daryl and Connie to go traipsing after him. At night. Against tremendous odds.

True, no one was holding a gun to their head, but that's what adds to the whole stupidity of this. One stupid thing leads to another stupid thing. For purposes of my argument, let's assume Connie is a key member of the team (likely is, and much more than Henry). We know Daryl is. So, they are risking two lives of key people for . . . Henry. If it were Carol, fine. Or Michonne, fine. But Henry, for christ's sake!!??!! And it all starts with Henry being an idiot. Now maybe if the Whisperers had snuck in and taken him and Lydia, that might change things. But it's hard to root for the good guys when they're responsible for the shit-hole they're in. 

BTW - I owe BOOFISH credit for the genesis of this thought.

Edited March 4, 2019 by SamBeckett

[Boofish]

1 minute ago, SamBeckett said:

A sudden thought: You know, it's irritating when a show's plot revolves around someone on the "good team" (in this case, Henry) doing something stupid. It is SOOO contrived. And it makes all the characters dumb. What I mean by that is that Henry does something stupid (a whole series of them, in fact), which then causes Daryl and Connie to go traipsing after him. At night. Against tremendous odds.

True, no one was holding a gun to their head, but that's what adds to the whole stupidity of this. One stupid thing leads to another stupid thing. For purposes of my argument, let's assume Connie is a key member of the team (likely is, and much more than Henry). We know Daryl is. So, they are risking two lives of key people for . . . Henry. If it were Carol, fine. Or Michonne, fine. But Henry, for christ's sake!!??!! And it all starts with Henry being an idiot. Now maybe if the Whisperers had snuck in and taken him and Lydia, that might change things. But it's hard to root for the good guys when they're responsible for the shit-hole they're in. 

*Church nod*

I get why Daryl is doing this - I really do but it's still stupid. He would die for Carol and I don't think he ever got past not being able to bring Sophia back to her. I don't want to him to have to tell her she lost another kid but they need to do a better job of making me root for Henry.

[iMonrey]

Is the whole point of the Whisperers to make the Saviors look good? Because as much as I despised the Saviors, I can't help but wonder how the Whisperers would have fared against them. I think the Saviors would have just laughed at the Whisperers. Then shot them. They are really just so absurd. It seems so counter-intuitive to walk around in a herd disguised as Walkers. Wouldn't that just make you a target for any other living person?

Quote

I would rather listen to Negan endlessly, than to listen to  Eugene's bullshit.  I can't believe that Jesus died while saving that wordsmith

Ditto. I just cannot stand how idiotic Eugene sounds, and I can't believe anyone puts up with him. I understand why he started using this pseudo-military speak but everyone knows he was a fraud so why does he still talk that way, and why doesn't anyone tell him to knock it off? It isn't cute or endearing or entertaining, it's just stupid.

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Would polygamy really grow the population more rapidly?  I would think that, assuming there were enough husbands/lovers/impregnators for every woman of child bearing age, it wouldn't matter if they each had one man or if there were 5 or 10 women to a man.

The monogamous model would produce just as many offspring, each father would have fewer to provide for, and there would be much more genetic diversity among the offspring, which would be critical in repopulating from a small group of survivors.   The increased inbreeding as the result of a polygamous system would likely cause a lot of genetic defects.   

Assuming all the demographics are equal to the point of providing everyone a partner, quite possibly.  I'm just guessing from what's observable from existing poly societies and a lack of reliable birth control historically.  In this specific case, we're talking about the likely unequal demographics that have resulted from the ZA and years of ensuing diseases, childbirth, previously treatable injuries, etc., that might prevent everyone from being able to make a 1:1 pairing.  Eugene, Siddaq, and Gabriel each setting up house with multiple women is almost certainly likely to result in a lot more children if that's your ultimate end goal than Rosita setting up with two or three or however many men unless she's some super breeder conceiving higher order multiples every time out, which then gets into issues of infant and maternal mortality in a world no longer equipped for that.  The previous poster's point was that a man can knock up multiple baby mamas at any given time.  Once a woman's pregnant, that's it until after she's finished with that pregnancy.

[mrspidey]

14 hours ago, oakville said:

I am confused about how the walkers attacked the Whisperer camp. Aren't the Whisperers supposed to be experts at dealing with Walkers?

Daryl took out the Whisperer who was herding them outside the camp. Then he put on the guy's poncho and zombie mask and herded them into the camp.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Assuming all the demographics are equal to the point of providing everyone a partner, quite possibly.  I'm just guessing from what's observable from existing poly societies and a lack of reliable birth control historically.  In this specific case, we're talking about the likely unequal demographics that have resulted from the ZA and years of ensuing diseases, childbirth, previously treatable injuries, etc., that might prevent everyone from being able to make a 1:1 pairing.  Eugene, Siddaq, and Gabriel each setting up house with multiple women is almost certainly likely to result in a lot more children if that's your ultimate end goal than Rosita setting up with two or three or however many men unless she's some super breeder conceiving higher order multiples every time out, which then gets into issues of infant and maternal mortality in a world no longer equipped for that.  The previous poster's point was that a man can knock up multiple baby mamas at any given time.  Once a woman's pregnant, that's it until after she's finished with that pregnancy.

I agree that you need fewer breeding males than females.  But, as long as there are sufficient breeding males, polygamy would not produce more offspring.

I guess you could argue the quality might be better, if only the "best" males had offspring, by impregnating multiple women. (If we want lots of babies, we can't be as picky about what females reproduce).  But, that sounds like we are getting into eugenics, which is rather problematic.  Besides that, even if we believed eugenics was OK, I think genetic diversity would be more important than "quality" (however they would define that) in such a small population.   

25 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

Daryl took out the Whisperer who was herding them outside the camp. Then he put on the guy's poncho and zombie mask and herded them into the camp.

I think that was the first time I've been surprised by anything on TWD since Rick ripped open Claimer Joe's jugular with his teeth.  

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It was really stupid to write off Coral and basically give his slot to Henry.  Coral was a much better character and played by a better actor. 

I don't really think Chandler was a much better actor, but he was a much better character, who had finally gotten past all the juvenile stunts he pulled, which we now have to watch being regurgitated by his replacement, someone too old to be acting like such a brat.  It's comparative for me. I didn't love Carl, but in comparison to Henry, now I miss him terribly.

What is unforgivable is not even getting rid of Coral, but the way they did it. Did someone hate Chandler that badly that they couldn't even give him a decent send-off, doing something important and memorable/heroic? They had him die in the dumbest, most bumbling way possible, by zombie bite, while he's so distracted honoring the mother of some total stranger? Disgraceful. But that wasn't enough. Then they shove his little replacement down our throats as "new Carl", a kid who does nothing but fuck up and wear a single facial expression.

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

  The flip side of course is at Alexandria, where Judith is out roaming the woods by herself with her gun and hanging out with Negan with none of the adults seemingly knowing or caring.

Yes. It seems Michonne just now found that out, well, at least the part about hanging out with Negan. She probably still has no idea Judith is out in the wilds alone. And we thought Lori was a neglectful mother.

2 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I don't know what I'd do without the folks on this board. I do know I wouldn't be watching this shitty show

Same.

[Nashville]

3 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

Chandler was always a good actor.

Not necessarily - but more often than not, Coral was generally better-portrayed than this shit.

Glad to see Henry’s getting so much valuable blacksmith apprenticeship experience, though.  Yaknow - for his community and all.  😛

3 hours ago, SamBeckett said:

Has Kirkman ever been with a woman? Are women allowed in his mother’s basement?

Fixed that for ya.

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The monogamous model would produce just as many offspring, each father would have fewer to provide for, and there would be much more genetic diversity among the offspring, which would be critical in repopulating from a small group of survivors.   The increased inbreeding as the result of a polygamous system would likely cause a lot of genetic defects.   

THIS would be the primary concern in my mind.  You get 2 or 3 horndogs pollinating an entire generation of a community, would are those kids going to have available to reproduce with - or, even worse, the next generation?  

On the plus side, though, they should all be great swimmers - six or seven webbed toes per foot should move a helluva lot more water per kick.

[lynxfx]

4 hours ago, SamBeckett said:

At the beginning of the ZA, I'd stake out claim to the nearest COSTCO. Then from there, and probably quickly, things would go from bad to worse.

I swear every time I go by a Costco I make a plan in my head of how I would fortify it for the ZA. The best one was when I lived in Venice, the Costco there has a nice high brick wall around it. You could turn that block into a fortress, and it has an In & Out. 

[meep.meep]

Especially when that person is about 6 inches taller than you are!  That was some great standing there and waiting to get killed.  It was a cool special effect, but the whole scene was oddly boring.

Beta is Ryan Hirst?  Opie?  He could beat Negan in a leaning contest as well as in a who wears this leather jacket the best contest.

I still don't get how the Whisperers' thing works.  The zombies don't react to sight, only to smells and sounds.  Are they somehow getting rid of their odor?  It's bad plotting.

Alpha needs to wash her face every now and then.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Daryl took out the Whisperer who was herding them outside the camp. Then he put on the guy's poncho and zombie mask and herded them into the camp.

So . . . Daryl is just as capable of "herding" walkers in any direction as the Whisperers are? So anyone can do this? Or do the Whisperers have magic zombie masks that real Walkers are compelled to follow? Presumably Daryl wasn't herding the Walkers the usual way (by creating loud noises) since the Whisperers would have heard him coming.

[Mu Shu]

17 hours ago, Yakima said:

Can't take any more of Michonne's scowling ugly face.  She and Henry need to go.

You know, I agree.  She was a great peripheral character, but as a lead she doesn’t work.  Danai really isn’t that good an actress, her delivery is stilted.  Contrast with that rascal Awful.  Stupid character, but the actress really sold it this episode.  I’m starting to dig her crusty, crazy ass.  

 I think Michonne is beautiful.  But scowling doesn’t become her.  And she’s dull on her own.