S14.E13: Lebanon (Episode 300)

[tennisgurl]

Dean seeing John showing up honestly looked like “you know, clown ghost John Wayne Gacey was less taxing than this is gonna be.” Or maybe that was just me...

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Dean seeing John showing up honestly looked like “you know, clown ghost John Wayne Gacey was less taxing than this is gonna be.” Or maybe that was just me...

Heh. 

On that note, I was actually kind of offended that they used John Wayne Gacy.   That maniac raped and killed 30 boys.   I wish they hadn't brought it up at all. I mean it was good they killed his ghost but I wish they would have just left that out altogether.

[Cambion]

I've watched ep 300 several times and been reading the comments here and now that I've convinced myself that it's okay there's still dew on my rose, lol....I really enjoyed it.  It had the closure for the boys that I needed to see/feel.  Sam needed the feely bit and I was really impressed with both Jared and JDM in that scene.  JDM being good was a given for me, but Jared really pulled out all the stops and it showed.

And feeling that Dean is a kindred spirit, and knowing how people like us internalize things, I feel like he got the closure he needed, too.  

I don't know how to do a spoiler...but this is really a TMI, not a spoiler, I had a terrible relationship with my dad growing up.  Things were expected of me that I couldn't do.  I was beaten up (I had to go away from home for my protection), but I made peace with that in my own mind and tried to make peace with my dad by writing him a letter where, surprise, surprise, I apologized for being such a terrible child.  He NEVER mentioned that letter to me and he NEVER apologized to me, but he did some things that showed he thought very differently after that.  I've gone through so much counseling of the "your parents will never really love you" type,  etc.  And it was literally on his deathbed that my dad actually said, "I love you, Cambion."  So, my TMI is to say, IMO, Dean got what he needed.

I get that you guys want him to have more, but, honest to Chuck, some people don't need it blatantly laid out like that, and that's how I see Dean.  It would be nice, sure, I agree.  But just because John didn't get down on bended knee and beg Dean's forgiveness doesn't mean that Dean doesn't understand, or feel better for having one last chance to see his father.  Some of us realize that we just ended up with parents that would be found in the seconds or irregulars bin at the department store and get that there's going to be holes and snags in the fabric.  And we live with it because railing against all the things that did to us, even on the inside, only makes it worse.  That's Dean.  He's strong in a way that will never completely break.

Anyway, enough of my pontification about children who are freaked up by their fathers.

Mary worked for me this time, I hope the powers that be and Sam Smith will continue to show her this way.  I still don't think she's going to be a mother to the boys, nor that they even believe she will be (or at this stop on that disappointment train want her to be), but it was nice to see some real vulnerability from her.

I did like the town and the teenagers.  It was a little time wastey, yeah, but it kept this whole experience from being in a vacuum, which I think made it seem a little more real and poignant in a "the world is still going on outside" way even though the family inside the bunker were trying so hard to hold onto one another.  And, who knows, perhaps we'll get to see more of the boys interacting in the town.  That's something I've been curious about ever since they started staying in one place, actually.  Cause, they really aren't your regular kind of dudes and it's been noticed.

Killing the pawn shop owner? Done and done.  Guy had to go, Dean needed to stretch his stabbing arm, everybody wins.  (Okay, that's probably really callous and stuff, but he did try to hurt the boys. And killed another hunter so definitely a Bad Guy(tm) who needed killing.)

Someone mentioned it was good to see the OG Cas.  I agree.  He was a  lot more fun when he didn't get all pop culture references.  lol

I wasn't bothered by Sam killing Zachariah in this timeline.  Here, it was just another dick-with-wings kill, whereas when Dean killed him, it was very personal.  So, it seemed different to me.  If they hadn't gotten Kurt Fuller back it would have been just another red-shirted dick-with-wings kill and nobody would have noticed a thing.  Dean was busy, Zach went after Sam, Sam shivved him.  End of story.  lol

Well, that's more than enough of my drivel.  Thanks for the chat the other night.  It really was nice.

[Lemuria]

I have to say that I did expect more from the 300th episode.  I know that there wasn't nearly enough time for everything--make it a 2-parter--but at least have an actual story there.  John being here should really have meant something to the events going on at this point in the series.  Instead, the ep was just a series of loosely connected "feels" moments (I can't begin to tell you how much I hate the word "feels."  Right up there with "soulmate"), that didn't work for me nearly as well as the writers thought they would.

Especially the John and Mary stuff.  Maybe if this ep had been done nine years ago but by now we've learned that the two of them were maneuvered by Heaven and really hated each other and we saw that "it only became perfect after she died" (poor Dean.  Taking care of everyone even before Mary died).  And we seen Mary, only a few months (for her) after John died, jumping into a relationship with Ketch and then with AU Bobby.  Yep, mourned a long time, didn't she?

I do think Dean got an apology of sorts from John for screwing up Dean's childhood and putting too much on his shoulders in Ep. 2.01, so he probably didn't need it as much here.  (Of course, John then immediately dropped a mountain range on Dean.  I was ticked for quite a while after over that but I mellowed a little:  John knew he was going to dead a few minutes later and he wouldn't be there to save or kill Sam.  And he knew that Dean was the only hunter--including Bobby, I think--he could trust to do everything possible to save Sam before going for the other option.)  Still, I would have liked to have seen John have to face the fact that his making Dean responsible for Sam in general and for the "save/kill" situation in particular landed Dean in Hell.

And why, show, did you bring up the "he sent me away to punish me" a whole week ago--which apparently exceeds your retention span--something that had never been even hinted at before, it you had no intention of addressing this week?  Did you just forget?

And then there's the 10,000 pound gorilla in the room.  Is Michael still in Dean?  If so, shouldn't Zachariah have picked up on the presence of his boss?  If not, how come and, even more importantly, shouldn't that have been a consideration in regard to changing things back?

Then there's Baby.  I've seen comments about why didn't Dean ward the car?  Why?  What difference would that have made?  She wasn't supernatural.  No, the real question for me is how she was able to take off with it.  Are we supposed to assume that Dean, with his obsessiveness about the Metallicar, left his keys in the car?  Or that he and Sam got out and left the engine running?  Or that a teenager who otherwise proved herself totally useless hot-wired the car?  I mean, that was just ridiculous.

I didn't totally dislike the young guy but only because I thought his enthusiasm about what the "Campbells" did was funny and I loved his description of Jack.

I did like Dean's speech at the end and hopefully we will get a less depressed Dean from here on in.  And I liked the "I have a family" line:  even though I think Dean has forgiven John, I felt a hint of anger at John still there in that line.  

Edited February 10, 2019 by Lemuria
Forgot something. Getting old!

[MysteryGuest]

Just watched again, and I enjoyed it more this time.  I could still do with much less of the teenager stuff, but the scenes with the Winchesters made it worthwhile.  All four actors did a great job.  Yes, I'd have liked to have actually witnessed them telling John some of their story, in lieu of another damn musical interlude, but the scenes we did get were done well.  I think both Sam and Dean made peace with their father, and now they can let go of the anger and guilt they've been carrying around for years.  It doesn't do anyone any good.

As for Michael, my assumption was that nothing happened with him.  And they did mention him multiple times, just not specifically to John.  My guess is we'll be back to talking about Dean's steel coffin by the next episode.

[Wynne88]

53 minutes ago, Cambion said:

I did like the town and the teenagers.  It was a little time wastey, yeah, but it kept this whole experience from being in a vacuum, which I think made it seem a little more real and poignant in a "the world is still going on outside" way even though the family inside the bunker were trying so hard to hold onto one another. 

I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think I agree.  

To me, this episode had a lot of heart, and I'll take that over most things.

[Dobian]

I see a lot of comments about the episode not going deep enough and just being emotionally manipulative.  I think Dean summed it up best in the episode when he told Sam, "Why can't you just give me this?"  As in, let's put all the other crap aside for one damn day and just enjoy the moment with our parents.  And that's what this episode was, a respite from all the crap in the series to just enjoy the moment with these characters.  This show goes deep all the time, sometimes too deep for its own good.  Melodrama for the sake of melodrama.  Sam and Dean with the weight of the world on their shoulders, again...and again.  This episode didn't need to and didn't want to go places that have been gone to a zillion times on this show already.  Like Dean said, just give it a rest for a day, or in our case, an episode.  And enjoy the moment.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Dobian

[BabySpinach]

If Zachariah had actually noticed that Dean was imprisoning Michael in his mind, his glorified cameo might have actually had a point. That particular interaction could have gone a number of juicy ways and also highlighted the current mytharc. But nope, he got stabbed like a chump within a minute.

And despite only Michael's consciousness being locked away, Dean apparently can't access his grace/powers at all, as seen with Cas' effortless whaling on him and the non-healing injuries afterwards. GUH, would it kill these writers to exercise a little creative extrapolation? Dean has a fucking ARCHANGEL in his head, yet this has no effect on him aside from the occasional migraine? 

Spoiler

However, I'm cautiously intrigued at the spoilers about Michael's secret machinations within his jailer's mind. If that leads to more tangible side-effects for Dean, count me in! Gotta get through Nougat Sue's obligatory screentime first, though... 

[Emma9]

Been out of the fandom loop for a while, so I had no clue this was even a milestone episode, nor that anything to do with John was coming besides the quickly-muted THEN starting with the pilot line (which they've used a couple of times in later seasons for less significant reasons, and which I managed to forget about what with all the teen/ghost clown shenanigans). And if JDM was in the credits, I luckily missed it.

All of which meant John managed to floor me in a way this show hasn't in years.

My initial thought was that the boys were under attack by one of Dean's self-loathing doppelgangers, that they were doing a retread of 'Dean thinks what he deserves most is to be punished'. Glad I was wrong there.

As it was...

I know John's a controversial character and I don't want to fight about it, but I've always had a soft spot for him and Dean, so it had me crying that Dean's deepest desire is to have him back. All the regrets over the years, the prospect of drowning in a coffin for eternity hanging over his head, but he still chooses his dad.

Setting aside the inescapable 'why didn't Dean just wish John yanked back out of the afterlife like how everybody else in the family has come back' thing, the next question is: why 2003 John, specifically?

But I think I know. I've always thought about how things must've been between the two of them when Dean wasn't stuck trying to intervene between him and Sam. I always had the feeling that during that time they started to be more like partners. It stands perfectly to reason that that's the version of him, the memory of him, that Dean would want back most.

As noted upthread, there were a lot of things that could've been done better. I would have loved to see the boys (and then Mary) doing 'the drill' on John before they'd believe it was really him. John's reaction to finding out about his Men of Letters roots (we got a little of that, but nothing substantial) and that Mary was raised as a hunter. The myriad ways in which the alternate timeline didn't make sense. Details on how exactly John originally found out that the boys were intended to be vessels. Why Mary's memory was intact but nobody else outside the bunker's. What was going on with Michael (for whom John was also a possible vessel, incidentally, so I thought they'd be doing something with that).

And I thought they gave up too easily. They could have had John try wishing for the timeline ripples to get smoothed out instead, Sam could wish for Michael to go kaput, keep Mary's wish in reserve, and destroy the pearl only as a last resort. This didn't seem like a situation like with the magic coin where it deliberately corrupts your wish so you can never get an actual positive result.

But then, that's always been a problem for this show - even when people could easily be saved or brought back, when others in basically identical situations have (would've been a downer to tell John his youngest son's been forgotten in hell, huh?), it doesn't get done because there's a conflict with the actor or the intended story arc, which in turn makes the characters themselves seem like callous hypocrites (even though clearly Sam, Dean, Cas, and apparently now Jack will always come back from any variation of dead, there's such a thing as going too far or paying too high a price when it comes to saving anybody else).

I'm easy enough (and my bar for this show is currently low enough) that all of the Winchester family scenes played me like a fiddle, but still.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Emma9

[Aeryn13]

4 hours ago, Dobian said:

I see a lot of comments about the episode not going deep enough and just being emotionally manipulative.  I think Dean summed it up best in the episode when he told Sam, "Why can't you just give me this?"  As in, let's put all the other crap aside for one damn day and just enjoy the moment with our parents.  And that's what this episode was, a respite from all the crap in the series to just enjoy the moment with these characters.  This show goes deep all the time, sometimes too deep for its own good.  Melodrama for the sake of melodrama.  Sam and Dean with the weight of the world on their shoulders, again...and again.  This episode didn't need to and didn't want to go places that have been gone to a zillion times on this show already.  Like Dean said, just give it a rest for a day, or in our case, an episode.  And enjoy the moment.

In that case I still just found it rather dull. I can't make myself blubbery cry over those family scenes nor do I want to. Either the episode itself manages to get me emotional or not. This one didn't.   

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Emma9 said:

As noted upthread, there were a lot of things that could've been done better. I would have loved to see the boys (and then Mary) doing 'the drill' on John before they'd believe it was really him. John's reaction to finding out about his Men of Letters roots (we got a little of that, but nothing substantial) and that Mary was raised as a hunter. The myriad ways in which the alternate timeline didn't make sense. Details on how exactly John originally found out that the boys were intended to be vessels. Why Mary's memory was intact but nobody else outside the bunker's. What was going on with Michael (for whom John was also a possible vessel, incidentally, so I thought they'd be doing something with that).

My rationale: it wasn't just John back, Dean's deepest desire was for his family back together.  Which meant Mary gets to keep her memories so she too could be with and interact with John.  That's what Dean wanted since he was 4 --- his original family alive and back together.  Maybe that's why Mary started driving south towards the bunker.  Because she suddenly had an urge to go to the boys.  Otherwise the coincidence was a bit high.  

And I totally accept your 2003 John rationale.  It was probably the height of John/Dean in terms of working together relationship.  This really WAS Dean's deepest desire.  He wasn't interested in going back to being 4.  He wanted his "best Dad" pre-death, his alive Mother, his brother and himself together.  And now.  Not in the past.  Which also further underscores that Dean is okay with who he is right now. Which is all kinds of awesome.

[trudysmom]

I tried to rewatch the episode, keeping in mind some of the insight I'd read here, hoping to change my mind about why it didn't do much for me.  But I fell asleep.  During Supernatural. 😳 I fall asleep to Gunsmoke, which trudysdad watches ad nauseum, to Big Bang Theory, even Seinfeld, shows I really enjoy.  But have never fallen asleep to Supernatural before.  Huh.  

[Bergamot]

18 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I get your annoyance about the heroes thing,*** but I thought the show actually covered very well the "At least we can make sure that what happened to us doesn't happen to others" thing with Dean's kitchen / dish washing talk. Dean clearly stated that not going back and doing what they had done would be questionable, because what would that make them if they expected someone else to sacrifice in their stead. If Dean wants to acknowledge himself as a good person - a hero - for doing that, I' not going to begrudge him that, myself.

*** Though it bother me less mainly due to Firefly. I loved that line from the show ("What does that make us?" "Big Damn Heroes. Sir"), and don't mind heroes calling themselves such when it seems semi-appropriate.

Fair enough.

However. I love Firefly too, very much, but it is a quite a different show from Supernatural, with its own distinct tone. When the Firefly characters call themselves "big damn heroes", it is coming from a very different place. It is a statement loaded with irony and ambiguity and pain, a cutting comment on the universe in which those characters find themselves.

One of the essential elements of Supernatural, though, has always been its own special and distinct tone of straightforward sincerity. What you see is what you get. While some people might look down on the show and think of it as less "grown-up" because of it, I've always loved my show for unabashedly being itself.

All this is to say that when Dean and Sam call themselves "heroes who save the world", I believe that it is a straightforward statement, and we are supposed to cheer for them. And of course, I absolutely do believe that they are heroes. So what's the problem?

For me, the problem is indicated when you have John in this episode saying something like, "I wish I could have been there to see it" after hearing the story of what his sons have been up to since he died. He wishes he could have been there to see it? That's when I realized, even more than I have before, that Dabb has a very fundamentally different view from me of what the show is.

In my opinion, for Dabb the show is essentially all about the triumph of the good guys against the bad guys. It is the kind of story that it actually makes sense that John would want to be there to see, because we can all cheer our heroes' victory and celebrate and high-five each other at the end. Go Winchesters!

But for me, the story of the Winchesters was never the stirring story of two starry-eyed boys who grew up to be big victorious heroes and became THE GUYS WHO SAVE THE WORLD. It is not about that kind of triumph -- it is about a tragedy. It is the terrible tragedy of a family caught up in and destroyed by huge supernatural events, full of unimaginable pain and desperate, impossible choices and things that can never be fixed. And the thing that makes it worth watching, the one amazing thing, is how the story of two brothers is like the Greek myth of Pandora, who opened the box containing all the evils of the world. Because like Pandora, the brothers found hope shining at the very bottom of the box, and they desperately grabbed hold of it,  and have refused to let it go.
 

Edited February 10, 2019 by Bergamot

[Pondlass1]

I'm having so much trouble with this new setup. A thin column of text with a couple of words per line.   I cannot 'like' or 'quote' anything either for some damn reason.  

But I really liked and agree with your post *Bergamot. You always put into words what I'm thinking. Especially this in a nutshell...

"the story of the Winchesters was never the stirring story of two starry-eyed boys who grew up to be big victorious heroes and become THE GUYS WHO SAVE THE WORLD. It is not about that kind of triumph -- it is about a tragedy."

It is about a tragedy indeed, and that's what sucked me in right at the start and made Supernatural different from all other fodder on TV.

Now it's lightweight and manipulative and mostly doesn't make sense.

[Dobian]

53 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Now it's lightweight and manipulative and mostly doesn't make sense.

Well the show hasn't made sense in years.  When you start getting into things like cupid, imaginary friends, and the Wizard of Oz, you're kind of going off the deep end.  And the fact that all these insane things go on without the larger world really noticing is pretty unbelievable.  But the show has remained fun all these years so it gets away with that.  And it has always been emotionally manipulative.  If I had a dollar for every time they played that slow piano number while Sam or Dean gave the other one their deathbed farewell or I'm about to make the noble sacrifice speech I'd be rich right now.  And there will be plenty more of those scenes before the show is done.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Dobian

[Bergamot]

11 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

I'm sorry all that happened to you. And i 100% agree. That little speech by Dean meant more to me than anything John could have ever said ever.
Closure should be about Dean, not about John. Obviously you can't separate John from the situation, but he doesn't get a say in it, and tbh I don't trust tptb to not to turn any kind of John apology into retconned narrative forgiveness and then hold it against Dean if he didn't accept it straight away, even with no time or effort to show any true effort or change. So this is more realistic to me.

(I am very sorry as well that happened to you, Cambion.)

But you make an excellent point here, PinkChicken. I am glad now that they didn't give John a chance to effortlessly receive a "retconned narrative forgiveness", as you say.

11 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

I really don't trust them to even approach this topic properly when it comes to Dean & John so i'm almost grateful they didn't really touch it.

I agree with this as well. Actually I kind of wish now that they had just cut out any private heart-to-heart between Dean and John completely. I don't see why John should get to feel better about his relationship with Dean because he again tells him how proud he is of him. (Because yes, John had previously told him that, and I don't see how him repeatedly saying that makes everything okay.) If the show wasn't going to do it well, it perhaps would be better that it not be done at all.

I think that what I needed more than that, more than having John say something to Dean, was to have the SHOW acknowledge, in this episode, that it wasn't just Sam that was really screwed up by what John did. In an episode like this, which was all about John reuniting with his family, it should not have been ignored the way it was.

It would have been easy enough to do. For example, they could have had John say to Sam during their talk, "I screwed up a lot with you, didn't I?  With both of you." Or have Sam say to John, "You did some messed-up things. To both of us." (Italicized portions are my additions.) See? Simple! Why would that be asking too much? Or maybe include with the "Then" segment a clip from IMTOD with John telling Dean, "I'm sorry...I put too much on your shoulders. I made you grow up too fast. You took care of Sammy, you took care of me."  Why not?

It's like they went out of their way to avoid the subject of what John's parenting did to Dean -- like they didn't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. I'm not wanting to interfere in any way with Sam's moment of closure with John here -- let John and Sam have all the time they need. But to completely pass over, as the episode does, that Sam was not the only son that John hurt -- I didn't like it. And again, I'm not talking about what Dean needed, but about what I needed. And it was something I didn't get.

[catrox14]

13 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Then there's Baby.  I've seen comments about why didn't Dean ward the car?  Why?  What difference would that have made?  She wasn't supernatural.  No, the real question for me is how she was able to take off with it.  Are we supposed to assume that Dean, with his obsessiveness about the Metallicar, left his keys in the car?  Or that he and Sam got out and left the engine running?  Or that a teenager who otherwise proved herself totally useless hot-wired the car?  I mean, that was just ridiculous.

 I didn't totally dislike the young guy but only because I thought his enthusiasm about what the "Campbell

That was one of the things that made me think maybe this was all in Dean's mind due to him already being in the box. I wondered why a magic pearl of all things would grant his wish and I thought what if Dean is back to slowly drowning and that his idea of building the box to trap Michael and himself is not real at all. That he's still trapped by Michael who is executing his plan. It woul explain why Dean was so easy to accept John being back with no testing.

And Baby being stolen because Dean left the keys in the car just makes Dean look stupid. But I'm sure it is exactly as it was and she hot wired the car. It's probably fairly easy to do in a car that old. And Dean wanting that family dinner is likely because he still intends to go through with his plan.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think that what I needed more than that, more than having John say something to Dean, was to have the SHOW acknowledge, in this episode, that it wasn't just Sam that was really screwed up by what John did. In an episode like this, which was all about John reuniting with his family, it should not have been ignored the way it was.

It would have been easy enough to do. For example, they could have had John say to Sam during their talk, "I screwed up a lot with you, didn't I?  With both of you." Or have Sam say to John, "You did some messed-up things. To both of us." (Italicized portions are my additions.) See? Simple! Why would that be asking too much? Or maybe include with the "Then" segment a clip from IMTOD with John telling Dean, "I'm sorry...I put too much on your shoulders. I made you grow up too fast. You took care of Sammy, you took care of me."  Why not?

It's like they went out of their way to avoid the subject of what John's parenting did to Dean -- like they didn't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. I'm not wanting to interfere in any way with Sam's moment of closure with John here -- let John and Sam have all the time they need. But to completely pass over, as the episode does, that Sam was not the only son that John hurt -- I didn't like it. And again, I'm not talking about what Dean needed, but about what I needed. And it was something I didn't get.

I agree, that would have been so much better. Especially since they randomely brought up John sending Dean away when he was pissed off in last week`s episode. What was the point of that info? 

They had no problem making the Dean and Mary scene all about Sam so throwing in some "screwed up with both of you" from John wouldn`t have been too bad in his talk with Sam. 

In terms of content, John and Dean had a much, much more meaningful scene back in IMTOD so it didn`t bother me that much that John didn`t bring "I put too much on you" specifically here. He did back then and it was a beautiful scene. The problem was that any possible closure Dean might have wanted would have addressed what came after that and this was probably stuff they didn`t even tell 2003!John.

It was the same problem when Sam had a heart to heart with young John in a time travel episode. It`s still technically not the person you want to talk to. 

The stuff with John thinking Dean was gonna settle down and be suburban dad was a pretty generic convo, though. I wish they would have found something more interesting to say between them, either relating to current events or in general. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

down and be suburban dad was a pretty generic convo, though. I wish they would have found something more interesting to say between them, either relating to current events or in general.  

If I thought the writing in this show was setting up something else coming I would almost think that it didnt happen but was in Dean's mind because he really is in the box, or Michael has gained control over Dean by making him think he had his family back. And that the trite moments were trite because Michael doesn't get all of what is in Dean's head in the right way, so he might have taken that moment from Dean's memory of being with Lisa and Ben and thinking that is what Dean still wants, not getting it quite right.

But I'm pretty sure it's just as straightforward as was shown...alas.

[MysteryGuest]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I think that what I needed more than that, more than having John say something to Dean, was to have the SHOW acknowledge, in this episode, that it wasn't just Sam that was really screwed up by what John did. In an episode like this, which was all about John reuniting with his family, it should not have been ignored the way it was.

I don't think it was ignored by the show.  Dean and John had their talk, and no, it didn't fix everything.  But you can't really fix a lifetime of issues with just a few words.  What the show did do is acknowledge that Dean had a lot of anger toward John and Mary, and rightfully so, but that he realized he needed to let it go.  That he really wouldn't change anything, if given the opportunity.  Yes, their lives suck, but doing it over so that they could have different lives, and sticking some other poor sap with their problems, wasn't something he had any interest in doing.  He's no longer doing what he does to prove something to his father, or because he thinks he isn't deserving of anything else.  He's doing it now by choice, because he knows they're good at what they do and that it's important.  

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

The stuff with John thinking Dean was gonna settle down and be suburban dad was a pretty generic convo, though. I wish they would have found something more interesting to say between them, either relating to current events or in general. 

But it does kind of fit with what John said in "Dead Man's Blood" (speaking to Sam) - "I want you to go to college.  I want Dean to have a real home and family." It does show, IMO, that John DID pay attention to who Dean was ... at least just a little.  While Dean in S1 was saying he didn't want that, and Dean in the AR never had that, John must have picked up on Dean's desire.  And Dean DID have the dream about Lisa in S3 and DID try to have a home in the year between S5 and S6.  So that desire was in Dean IMO.  If it was only what Sam wanted (living with Lisa and Ben) I think he would have packed up and left after a month (IMO).  And AR Dean may have picked up 'hunting for Dad' as his passion and never got resolution -- that could have forestalled/replaced the 'home dream'.  

Bottom line: I think it fits with what John thought Dean's real desires would be. I don't think 2003 John was off-base from where Dean's head was at. I don't think it was a superficial comment but I felt Dean's clap back was spot on.  He HAS a family.  He was polite when he said it but there was also a 'don't be judging me' feel in his confidence.  He wasn't trynig to assure John.  He was stating a fact.  JMO, of course. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't think it was ignored by the show.  Dean and John had their talk, and no, it didn't fix everything.  But you can't really fix a lifetime of issues with just a few words.  What the show did do is acknowledge that Dean had a lot of anger toward John and Mary, and rightfully so, but that he realized he needed to let it go. 

That speech was more about how their lives got screwed up via outside influences. Even the way Dean said he blamed his parents for a while implied that that was wrong because they, too, were innocent victims in it all. 

And in the talk with John, they acknowledged nothing specific to their relationship. Which, again, they did do in In My Time of Dying but at least including Dean in John`s words to Sam about screwing up would not have been amiss. 

The way the episode rolled, you could very well deduce that John only ever screwed up with Sam.   

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But it does kind of fit with what John said in "Dead Man's Blood" (speaking to Sam) - "I want you to go to college.  I want Dean to have a real home and family."

I thought the "I want Dean to have a home" was an equally generic afterthought for Dean back in that episode. In short, I found it too simplistic then and now. 

This point-in-time John was just the wrong one for Dean to be anything more than a superficial guest star in "one nice family dinner". Which I get, makes a nice memory for him that he previously didn`t have before. 

And Dean is the ultimate "make lemonade" guy so despite them not addressing anything worthwhile about their relationship or getting any kind of real closure here, I can see why he took just the superficial new memory as something really important. It`s just way less meaningful to me as a viewer. I would have prefered them to bring John back and actually do something with that beyond fluff. As it was, I thought it was mostly a waste of time. 

Edited February 10, 2019 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

14 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think it was ignored by the show.  Dean and John had their talk, and no, it didn't fix everything.  But you can't really fix a lifetime of issues with just a few words.  What the show did do is acknowledge that Dean had a lot of anger toward John and Mary, and rightfully so, but that he realized he needed to let it go.  That he really wouldn't change anything, if given the opportunity.  Yes, their lives suck, but doing it over so that they could have different lives, and sticking some other poor sap with their problems, wasn't something he had any interest in doing.  He's no longer doing what he does to prove something to his father, or because he thinks he isn't deserving of anything else.  He's doing it now by choice, because he knows they're good at what they do and that it's important.  

I wonder how the last few years have influenced his view of Chuck.  Chuck implied that some of Dean's anger with him (Chuck) was his Daddy Issues.  There may have been some truth to that (S5 -- telling Cas he knows what it's like to have a deadbeat Dad). But, now that Dean's more at peace with the world.  He HAS his family.  Does Dean feel the same about Chuck?  Is he pissed that he created Archangels that are out destroying worlds?  It would be interesting to know.  

[ZennyKenny]

"Hey when would be a good time to have the site down for system maintenance?"

"Idk how about during Supernatural's milestone 300th episode lol?"

ANYWAYS...

I strongly believe that this should have been a two-parter. Everything felt so rushed. Especially Zachariah's 'blink-and-you'll-miss-it' cameo. IMO they shouldn't have killed him, and should instead have had Cas steal the pearl because Heaven doesn't want any more messing around with time. Then part 2 could have been All 4 Winchesters going on a hunt together to get the pearl back. Could have been epic.

Also Adam should have been brought up. That's all I'm going to say.

Other than that, it was a good episode. It just didn't feel like a "300th" episode. Not in the same way the 200th did.

Also why did they place so much emphasis on the teddy bear if they weren't going to follow through with something? I kept expecting it to become relevant somehow.

[S Cook Productions]

57 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

"Hey when would be a good time to have the site down for system maintenance?"

"Idk how about during Supernatural's milestone 300th episode lol?"

ANYWAYS...

I strongly believe that this should have been a two-parter. Everything felt so rushed. Especially Zachariah's 'blink-and-you'll-miss-it' cameo. IMO they shouldn't have killed him, and should instead have had Cas steal the pearl because Heaven doesn't want any more messing around with time. Then part 2 could have been All 4 Winchesters going on a hunt together to get the pearl back. Could have been epic.

Also Adam should have been brought up. That's all I'm going to say.

Other than that, it was a good episode. It just didn't feel like a "300th" episode. Not in the same way the 200th did.

Also why did they place so much emphasis on the teddy bear if they weren't going to follow through with something? I kept expecting it to become relevant somehow.

Yes. This. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I thought it was decent. Lots of people cried a lot but I only welled up twice - when John said Mary and when Dean flinched at the pearl. I thought there were some great moments but they made one critical error.

Once JDM signed on they needed to dump the Lebanon idea and make the whole episode just about him and the family. The first 10 minutes should have been saved for an awesome MOTW episode in which Sam and Dean have a case in their own town. Cause I feel like I still want to see THAT episode. 

I also felt like Cas and Zach were shoehorned in a bit but did enjoy the scene. 

I saw a theory online and wondered what you guys thought:

When John wakes up in 2003 and clearly remembers. Could that be used to explain everything he does later? In other words did he disappear, get them back together etc so that he made sure they saved the world?  

[Jediknight]

20 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Heh. 

On that note, I was actually kind of offended that they used John Wayne Gacy.   That maniac raped and killed 30 boys.   I wish they hadn't brought it up at all. I mean it was good they killed his ghost but I wish they would have just left that out altogether.

Dean killed Hitler, it's only fair for Sam to kill a real life monster as well.

They do need to make shirts, Dean gets his "I killed Hitler" shirt, and Sam gets "I killed John Wayne Gacy".  They really should be entitled to free drinks for life because of that.

[MysteryGuest]

49 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Once JDM signed on they needed to dump the Lebanon idea and make the whole episode just about him and the family. The first 10 minutes should have been saved for an awesome MOTW episode in which Sam and Dean have a case in their own town. Cause I feel like I still want to see THAT episode. 

I absolutely want this episode.  I'd almost have preferred that storyline be the 300th episode and save the John reunion for when the show is ending.  They definitely shouldn't have been crammed together, regardless.

[FlickChick]

I agree with some others here that the episode was certainly not as epic as one would hope for a special 300. Too much fluff for me, trying too hard to go for the "feels". Trust me when I tell you that I have cried - a number of times in this show - but not in this one. I felt that it was obvious from the title "Lebanon", to opening with what would be a normal "case" for the Winchesters, to the teens' drama, that this episode was originally intended to be a story about a local case and how the townsfolk view these guys. Then BOOM, a 180 degree turn into a story about Dean's wish to have his family all back together - dad included when JDM became available. That's probably why they have two writers for this episode. Obviously, Dabb was going to write the teen story for the 300th, because 1) that's his level of writing 2) have to compete with the teen story in the 200th 3) he's trying his damnedest to get teens into Supernatural come hell or high water - probably still hoping to get his spinoff. I've come to the conclusion that Dabb is not only a lousy showrunner, he's also a lousy writer.

In short, I was offended by Sam's kill of Zach (pretty sure that was Dabb's idea) and also, as mentioned above, only Sam getting an apology from John about screwing up his life. As with so many other episodes, this one had such potential if only they used it in a way that mattered. It was nice to see JDM again, I just wanted more meat to the story. As always, Jensen brought his A game. Too bad that most of our writers don't seem to have an A game to bring. 😞

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Dean killed Hitler, it's only fair for Sam to kill a real life monster as well. 

That wasn't my point at all. I don't care who killed him. I didn't like them being flippant about Hitler and I equally didn't like them being flippant about Gacy. Interesting that both episodes were written by Meredith Glynn. I don't get her brand of humor with those things.

[SueB]

4th rewatch thoughts (theme highlighted to support skimming):

•  I REALLY hope we get a future episode with the townspeople there.  Names I picked up:
  •  Jackson; liquor store owner
  • Marta; post office worker
  • Elliot, Max, and Stacy: the teens
  • Caitlan (Max's Mom) & "B&E" pizza place cook (not sure he was named)
  • Bea (name from closed captioning) & Ethan (saw the ghost)
  • With a few locals now name (and they all have SAG/AFTRA cards because they spoke), I hope we get to see them in some future town-based hunt.  
• Did you notice the old GMC truck the boys were driving out to the party house?  It occured to me that they avoid stealing cars in Lebanon (and the use of fake credit cards I suspect... I bet they are cash only).  I think that was actually a car from the bunker garage.  Good for a small jaunt, not for long road trips.
• I really REALLY want them to use more of the artifacts catalogued in the MoL bunker.  They literally have every possible Mcguffin and Deus Ex Machina they want.  So, it has to be only on occaision but I think it needs to be leveraged a little more.
• I like the use of a pearl versus some other talisman.  It can tie into "the kingdom of heaven is like a pearl of great price". As well as the 'family' theme of Steinbeck's "The Pearl".
• I debated with myself but I THINK Michael was still in Dean's head.  Since there were "two" Deans at the moment in the AR, then original recipe Dean was unchanged and Michael was probably in there.
• It totally makes sense to me that John's dissappearance screwed up the Angel's plan.  Not just because Sam didn't get back into the life but John's sacrifice in IMTOD was essential to Dean's headspace when he made a deal for Sam's life.  No Dean in Hell, no righteous man to shed blood, no Apocalypse.
• If John put a bun in the over (i.e. impregnated Mary), I would think it might stick.  The boys still had their facial injuries after we had the 'time restoration' scene of the town correcting.
• Oh!  I have another idea!!!!   I just realized WHY Ash said he hadn't been able to find John or Mary Winchester in Heaven. Amara pulled Mary out of Mary's personal heaven -- everyone at the time of her death.  So maybe she pulled Mary from before Ash went looking.   I know, temporal paradox.  God's sister-- she could do that.  Then John... maybe John's personal Heaven was never experienced because at some point in the future -- someone (Chuck, Amara, ....) pull John back for a yet-to-be-seen-episode.  Or not.  Just saying... they left that whole "Ash can't find Mary and John Winchester in heaven" thing out there in S5.  Could come in handy.  
• On Tuesday the 12th they are going to release a BTS special for iTunes.  I'll post a 'blow by blow' when it comes out. I'm sure it'll be up on YouTube for at least a brief moment but in case it isn't those who don't iTunes can get the gist. It'll also likely be on the DVD/BluRay release in Sept.

Regarding other comments:

• Dean already got the big apology from John ("I put too much on you."). This episode's pseudo-apology ("I never meant for this to happen..... This should have ended with Yellow Eye") was TOTALLY in keeping with John Winchester's personality, especially regarding Dean. Conversely, 2003 John's last memory of Sam was a horrific fight where he threw him out of the house.  So 2003 John was in a relatively good place with Dean but not with Sam.  The state of their relationship at the time he was plucked out of history would impact what he said in the time alloted.   
• They were able to afford JDM for TWO days of filming.  That's it.  And a comment was made in one of the many, many 300 episode interviews that the studio gave them extra money for this episode.  I'm sure it was for JDM.  But there was never going to be more than one episode in this season.  It was always a 'special 300th' celebration thing.  So, no two-parter would have been viable financially.
• I didn't mind the two stories going on (Lebanon the town and John' return).  An ENTIRE episode of John was a) not affordable ... 8 days to shoot an episode and they only had 2, b)would likely have been pretty much a bottle episode inside the bunker ... mostly full of talk ... no action, and 3) would not have emphasized the message that the boys already have a home and a family.  By showing how comfortable they are in Lebanon, we got to see their hometown.  Home is not just Baby or the MoL Bunker.  Home is also Lebanon.  I like that message.
• Gacy kill -- works for me.  He was an asshole, I like his ignomious defeat as footnote for Sam.  
• Sam killing Zachariah: meh.  Killing angels has become much more routine now.  And I was kinda glad the smarmy bastard got killed again (although I love Kurt Fuller, he place a great asshole). 

[ILoveReading]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

It totally makes sense to me that John's dissappearance screwed up the Angel's plan. 

I find this the biggest WTF moment in the episode.  It was John's disappearance that prompted Dean to got to Standford and ask Sam for his help.  If John went missing in 2003 vs 2005 why would Dean's actions be any different.

It was literally John going missing that put everything in motion. 

"Dad's on a hunting trip and hasn't been home in a few days, is a pretty iconic moment.  (Unless this is something else Dabb wants to erase.

I also find this a contradcition with what we told overall.  Sam was yellow eye's favorite but he wasn't the only person earmarked by him.  That was the point of the battle royal.  So even if Sam never starts back hunting, one of the other psychic kids should have chosen. 

Plus the AU world was a mirror to our right up until Mary not making a deal and the apocalypse happened.  In that universe Sam and Dean weren't there to stop it.  So why would it happen in the AU without Sam and Dean's actions but not in the altered timeline?

Edited February 11, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Bergamot]

18 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

If Zachariah had actually noticed that Dean was imprisoning Michael in his mind, his glorified cameo might have actually had a point. That particular interaction could have gone a number of juicy ways and also highlighted the current mytharc. But nope, he got stabbed like a chump within a minute.

That would have been interesting, if Zachariah had known about Michael!

I have to say that one thing I did enjoy about Zachariah's appearance in the episode was how completely and totally unchanged he was. No matter how the timeline had been altered, no matter what devious machinations the angels and demons were currently up to in his timeline, it was still the same old Zachariah: smug, supercilious, and utterly ruthless. "Earth: where you're always stepping in something." Ha!

On the other hand, there were the altered timeline versions of Sam and Cas, so different from "our" Sam and Cas. This was interesting, because in a way, they were like examples from a Dean version of "It's A Wonderful Life", showing what each of them would be like without Dean in their life.

I thought that our glimpse of the altered timeline Sam was hilarious: "God bless kale, am I right?" Ha! But it was also sad to see this version of Sam, with his uptight, unlikable persona, insisting on the importance of clearing out things like hobbies and family from your life in order to "be your best".  This was a Sam who was sorely in need of Dean in his life.

I was tickled by Dean's horrified pity at seeing what Sam had become in this timeline. After all, in the eyes of the world it would be Sam, with his own law firm and his TED talks, who would have been considered a success in life. Whereas altered timeline Dean, a wanted criminal with nothing but "a lot of beheadings" on his resume, would definitely be viewed as the brother who had gone down the wrong path in life with nothing to show for it. But in Dean's eyes, of course, he was the brother who was doing well, and Sam was the one who was in bad shape!

Altered timeline Castiel was also a sad case. Because he never was sent to rescue Dean from Hell, he never became anything more than a mindless thug for his angelic superiors. Seeing this reversion to a pre-Dean Castiel reminded me of something I was thinking a couple episodes ago, when Michael seemed intrigued by Cas's reason for choosing the side he was on. I was wondering if maybe that's why he was poking around in Dean's memories, taking a look at the first encounter between Dean and Cas. And I like that even after all this time, Dean still had a crystal clear memory of his first earthly encounter with Cas, even down to the exact words he spoke and the sound of his voice. 

[SueB]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I find this the biggest WTF moment in the episode.  It was John's disappearance that prompted Dean to got to Standford and ask Sam for his help.  If John went missing in 2003 vs 2005 why would Dean's actions be any different.

It was literally John going missing that put everything in motion. 

"Dad's on a hunting trip and hasn't been home in a few days, is a pretty iconic moment.  (Unless this is something else Dabb wants to erase.

I also find this a contradcition with what we told overall.  Sam was yellow eye's favorite but he wasn't the only person earmarked by him.  That was the point of the battle royal.  So even if Sam never starts back hunting, one of the other psychic kids should have chosen. 

Plus the AU world was a mirror to our right up until Mary not making a deal and the apocalypse happened.  In that universe Sam and Dean weren't there to stop it.  So why would it happen in the AU without Sam and Dean's actions but not in the altered timeline?

Unlike "Pilot", Dean would have had NO leads in 2003.  In 2005 he had a call from John saying the was something big going on and EBP in the background.  And he knew to start in Jericho.  In 2003, Dean would have backtracked to where John was at, found the Impala and known that their Dad was in trouble -- because he wouldn't have left the Impala alone.  So... yes, Dean could have gone to Sam in 2003 and said Dad's been taken but without leads, where do they go?  And Azazel was not ready to make his move in 2003.  He started the whole psychic thing with that generation of kids when they turned 22 (6 months prior to Jessica's death).  He would have been caught off-guard when the events happened.  It's POSSIBLE that Azazel could have tried to kickstart later but he may not have picked up on John's dissappearance for a while.  Most importantly, Sam was ready to go back to his life at Stanford after failing to find John in Pilot.  If Azazel wasn't there to send Brady to kill Jessica (or if he hadn't met Jessica yet).... Sam would not be revenge-ready.  If something similar (Sam going back to Stanford after failing to find John) happened, Dean may have written Sam off.  And Sam may have written Dean off.  But you also have to wonder about the Angel's involvement.  They had big plans for the Winchesters but that whole Righteous Man thing got disrupted. SO, even if YED tried to start something with Sam's generation of Special kids ... the Angels were suddenly not ready.  I can TOTALLY see them disrupting demon plans and forcing a generational delay.  Angels WANTED the Apocalypse so they stayed out of YED's way in the original timeline.  If the Angels were caught offguard by John's dissappearance, they needed to find a new 'Ali' for the 'Foreman vs Ali' prizefight.  Now they could have rewickered another way for Dean to sell his soul but Heaven works on a slow timeline.  Waiting another generation or two would be doable IMO.

In the AU world, the Angels wrote off the John/Mary bloodline after John' death.  No Sam & Dean meatsuits.  They had plenty of time to develop another bloodline pair for the Apocalypse timing to be right.  It maybe didn't go down the same way (hunters/MoL bloodline) but they somehow got another pair of brothers (or viable meatsuits*).

ETA: *From AUMichael's coveting of Dean's particular body, I'd have to say that The Winchester boys are THE preferred solution.  Every other option is 'doable'.  But AUMichael was keen on getting Dean's body (this all sounds so much worse when I write this....).  So, I think they really put a lot of stock in the Winchester/Campbell bloodlines and in this world, when it worked out that they tee'd up Sam and Dean as desired -- boy were the Angels wrong! In the AU, they got their Apocalypse -- but again they screwed up.  Because they ended up with a dirtball for a planet.  And a human resistence force.  In sum... that whole "throw your own Apocalypse" plan really sucked -- no matter what universe they tried it.

Edited February 11, 2019 by SueB

[Casseiopeia]

I don't know where to put this...so I'll put it here...

Edited February 11, 2019 by Casseiopeia

[annspal]

Well, this one is particularly rewatchable for me! I understand wishing for more practical conversations and objecting to all that wasn't dealt with, but I can't get too worked up about it. I am buying the theory of "Let's just enjoy having our family together for a minute"  being the operating principle - especially once it was clear it couldn't last. (And Sam believed from the first that a John out-of-his-time would have consequences that were going to be unsustainable.) 

Some things:

• Sam and Dean spent an extra lot of the episode being knocked off their feet. First the pawn shop bad guy got them, then the clown tossed Dean to the couch, then John gets the drop on them both, and finally Zachariah and Cass leave real marks (not to mention Max stealing the Impala so easily!). I'm not sure if there's a message in all that (beyond Sam and Dean having each other's back and not quitting?)? 
• Sam being the one tempted to pull the teddy bear's string was unexpected.  Was that showing us that Dean is too serious/preoccupied with Michael to be distracted that way? That doesn't fit with Dean being the one to try the dragon's breath atomizer, though. The combo of the bear's creepily sewn shut mouth and unpulled string makes me too curious.
• The inventory pages in the catalog book from the pawn shop are pretty awesome! It was worth looking at screen caps. 
• Sam cracked me up with the "blah, blah, blah-blah-blah, blaaaahhh" bitch face when Dean's flirting works in the post office. 
• I like the pearl as a vehicle because of its physical structure of layers upon layers - which is how I see the Winchester story and indeed universe(s!). Smashing the pearl reminded me of Bobby burning the photo after Ellen and Jo died. (And Dean's flinch of course was reminiscent of when Sam shot Madison.)
• I am really appreciating the instances of genuine pleasure and pride (JDM has a lovely smile.) at finding themselves with each other as well as the tears of regret over the unchangeable. 
• I admit (with a little embarrassment) to wishing we'd seen John notice the ring Mary wears on a chain. I wished for his leather jacket. I wanted Mary to have changed from her traveling shirt by the time the guys got back from the trip to town. I wanted Sam and Dean to watch John and Mary dance.  As manipulative as they were, there was room for more! 😏
• Sam's slow-mo hair while Cass was beating him up was pretty extreme. (extremely distracting!) Did anyone see what happened to the cook at the pizza place? When Sam and Dean enter, they shoo out the kids and Max's mom. Maybe there was a back door through the kitchen?
• I wish they'd gone with something other than "versus" as John is talking to Dean about making the time paradox right so Mary would stay. "Or" would have worked without implying adversaries. 
• I hope there's something that John said/left behind/otherwise that makes a difference (sets a course or saves the day) in a follow-up episode. I hope they don't ignore that John was there!

[rue721]

Hey everybody 👋 I keep thinking about this episode, and can't stop myself from giving my two cents!

I really enjoyed it. Mary and John's love story broke my heart, and Sam and John's heart-to-heart was gorgeous.

Dean's storyline didn't make any sense to me, though. The more I think about it, the more confused it seems. First, the pearl senses that Dean's most heartfelt wish is for John to be there. But then when John actually shows up, Dean makes a big point that he's completely at peace with how his life has turned out without John, because he's got a loving family and he's saving the world. But then when Sam and Dean discover what their lives would be if John had disappeared for good in '03, Dean is ALSO delighted by the version of himself that's a lone wolf hunting relative small fry, no family and no saving the world AND no John. I mean, at least two of those three options of what Dean wants have GOT to be bullshit, because they all contradict each other. Any of those three options seem plausible, I would have been OK with the show going with any one of them. Or maybe Dean could believe that one of them is true but then discover that another is true over the course of the episode, whatever. Regardless, it seemed like the show wasn't seeing a contradiction at all? So Dean was just hopping all over the place emotionally and his storyline felt (to me) nonsensical.

I also felt like John had no emotional throughline, he just floated from scene to scene watching from afar. Which makes sense in retrospect, if he thought it was all a dream. And I guess the show had no choice but to give John very little to do, because they had so little time to film with JDM. But I really think we needed to see some scenes of John hunting with Sam and Dean to actually see how things had changed, though. I mean, they're hunters, they can talk at each other all day but it's all going to be a little hallow/meaningless until we see them in action with each other.

I also think instead of a family dinner, it would have been more interesting to see a family hunt. Like these people have never eaten together in their lives, Sam wasn't even on solid foods the last time they were all together at dinnertime, I don't give a shit about seeing that. I want to see what they do when there's danger -- I want to see how John and Mary have each others' backs in the field, how John and Dean work together as equals in the field, how John and Sam cooperate in the field, how John reacts to seeing Sam and Dean work so well together (now THAT would make him proud, I would think, but also a bit sad because he's left out of their well-oiled machine), how John reacts to Mary hunting at all...That's where we would be able to see their relationships and the changes between/within them, I think.

Regardless of how difficult the logistics were for getting JDM back for any time at all, let alone for more than a few minutes of screentime, I think that it was a misstep to make the family story completely domestic, instead of putting their dynamic in the field where it belonged.

And I guess vice versa -- I liked seeing Lebanon, but THAT was the domestic story, that was the story about Sam and Dean's home, that shouldn't have been where the show put all the supernatural/hunting stuff in the episode.

[Lemuria]

I do like that the episode highlights again for us that Dean is really the people person and Sam is a natural-born loner.  And with the brothers separated permanently in this changing timeline, TED Talk Sam dumps family (and presumably friends) along with hobbies and greasy food.  

[kickingnames]

The headcanon that makes the most sense for me is that the only way the pearl could come up with to remove Michael from Dean’s head in 2019 was by removing John from the timeline in 2003. I don’t really know why that in particular would do the trick or be significant (though I assume it was a particular point when nothing could permanently pull Sam back into hunting, not even Dean’s search for a truly missing John, and the result somehow ruins the original apocalyptic plans for the boys). But once the pearl had pulled John out of the way, it deposited him in front of the wishing Dean in a sort of “voila!” moment. So it wasn’t that the pearl sensed that what Dean really wanted was John back (or even just one happy family dinner), but that it was trying to fulfill Dean wish for Michael’s removal the only way it knew how. Which gives me a sense that the ways of getting rid of Michael are truly few and far between.

The other thing I thought of was that maybe the pearl’s way of fulfilling the wish was to pop John into Dean’s current life, knowing it would be brief, but also knowing that somehow the “closure” of the happy family moment would have some butterfly effect we don’t know about yet that will eventually result in the guys doing something they wouldn’t have otherwise done, and that is what gets rid of Michael. I have a harder time believing that one within the story, but I wouldn’t put it past the show.

Regardless, I am so glad whoever ponied up whatever so that JDM could come back for this. Superficial as it may have been, the Winchester family stuff was what made this story worthwhile in any sense.

[Aeryn13]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I find this the biggest WTF moment in the episode.  It was John's disappearance that prompted Dean to got to Standford and ask Sam for his help.  If John went missing in 2003 vs 2005 why would Dean's actions be any different.

It was literally John going missing that put everything in motion. 

"Dad's on a hunting trip and hasn't been home in a few days, is a pretty iconic moment.  (Unless this is something else Dabb wants to erase.

I also find this a contradcition with what we told overall.  Sam was yellow eye's favorite but he wasn't the only person earmarked by him.  That was the point of the battle royal.  So even if Sam never starts back hunting, one of the other psychic kids should have chosen. 

Plus the AU world was a mirror to our right up until Mary not making a deal and the apocalypse happened.  In that universe Sam and Dean weren't there to stop it.  So why would it happen in the AU without Sam and Dean's actions but not in the altered timeline?

Yeah, that was some extreme bullshit that was only handwaved for this episode. In no way, shape or form does it make sense to me within the mythology of the show.   

[juppschmitz]

7 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Dean killed Hitler, it's only fair for Sam to kill a real life monster as well.

They do need to make shirts, Dean gets his "I killed Hitler" shirt, and Sam gets "I killed John Wayne Gacy".  They really should be entitled to free drinks for life because of that.

They're gonna wait till Jack kills Stalin and Cas kills Jack-the-Ripper.

Just give Glynn long enough on this show.

[juppschmitz]

2 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I do like that the episode highlights again for us that Dean is really the people person and Sam is a natural-born loner.  And with the brothers separated permanently in this changing timeline, TED Talk Sam dumps family (and presumably friends) along with hobbies and greasy food.  

This. Dean IS a people person. He wouldn't even had to put his hand on Marta's for her to help them. He came in, greeted her by name and asked after her grandchild. He SAW her as a person, not as a sponge to be squeezed for information. He had built up a connection long before she might have become useful.

[Bergamot]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I find this the biggest WTF moment in the episode.  It was John's disappearance that prompted Dean to got to Standford and ask Sam for his help.  If John went missing in 2003 vs 2005 why would Dean's actions be any different.

It was literally John going missing that put everything in motion. 

"Dad's on a hunting trip and hasn't been home in a few days, is a pretty iconic moment.  (Unless this is something else Dabb wants to erase.

I also find this a contradcition with what we told overall.  Sam was yellow eye's favorite but he wasn't the only person earmarked by him.  That was the point of the battle royal.  So even if Sam never starts back hunting, one of the other psychic kids should have chosen. 

Plus the AU world was a mirror to our right up until Mary not making a deal and the apocalypse happened.  In that universe Sam and Dean weren't there to stop it.  So why would it happen in the AU without Sam and Dean's actions but not in the altered timeline?

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Yeah, that was some extreme bullshit that was only handwaved for this episode. In no way, shape or form does it make sense to me within the mythology of the show.  

Yes. The angels had been planning for the Michael versus Lucifer fight using Dean and Sam for who knows how long -- long before they had Cupid get John and Mary together. There is no way they would just go, "Oh well, John Winchester has disappeared, let's just forget the whole thing", to the point that Zachariah was only vaguely aware of who they were and talked about the plan as something that was abandoned in the past. Same thing for the demons and their plans.

But I agree that this was all just handwaved for this episode. There is no way I will believe that the writers on this show bothered to think their way through all the ramifications. They just didn't.

15 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

Also why did they place so much emphasis on the teddy bear if they weren't going to follow through with something? I kept expecting it to become relevant somehow.

Chekhov's teddy bear!

[ILoveReading]

10 hours ago, SueB said:

Unlike "Pilot", Dean would have had NO leads in 2003. 

This wouldn't really be true.  It seems to me that John and Dean were in contact with each other, even if they were separated,, even if its 'heading to ABC town in Kansas to hunt a wendigo, or Dean telling John, he was headed to XYZville in Florida to hunt a spirit.  So if John disappeared in 2003, Dean would have a starting place.  Its not different then 2005.   Dean had the same amount of information.  Working a case in a town.

10 hours ago, SueB said:

In 2003, Dean would have backtracked to where John was at, found the Impala and known that their Dad was in trouble -- because he wouldn't have left the Impala alone.  So... yes, Dean could have gone to Sam in 2003 and said Dad's been taken but without leads, where do they go? 

Whatever town John said he was in last.  With what family means to Dean I don't think the reason or how big the case or the reason.  All he would see was that his dad was missing.

10 hours ago, SueB said:

And Azazel was not ready to make his move in 2003. 

the 22 year cycle seemed to be when Azazel started a new generation but there is nothing to say that any of his chosen kids had to be 22 before things started.  There seemed to be no real set in stone timeline, given the fact that they were originally waiting willing to wait 10 years for Dean.  When Dean made the deal for Sam, they moved up the timeline by 9 years.  I don't think 2 years really would have been that big a deal as to when things stared.   The angels had been planning this for generations they were waiting for the opportunity,  Not a specific date and John going missing was that opportunity.

IMO, this  mess started because John went missing, so to say that John going missing changed everything is some major bad level lazy writing. 

Edited February 11, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Lemuria]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

Chekhov's teddy bear!

 Not to mention, Chekhov’s “Dad sent me away to punish me.”  This is  something that has never been said before in the show. Why bring it up the week before John returns if you have no intention of doing anything with it? 

[Pondlass1]

On 2/9/2019 at 11:04 AM, Pondlass1 said:

Dean!! When are you going to ward your Baby so she is safe and protected?  You surely know how.

Someone mentioned warding wouldn't be any good against humans.  But if memory serves me, during the BMoL season where Sam is being tortured in the basement Dean is stopped from entering to save Sam by a BMoL sigil painted on the basement doors.  I think I was posting at IMDb at the time because I remember a whole discussion why they wouldn't use the sigil to stop humans entering the bunker (or even anywhere else).  It seemed such a handy dandy thing, (but probably a writers' nightmare I guess).

  But Baby being stolen so easily was just a plot ploy that really went nowhere.  Still, I supposed Dean felt Baby was safe on the streets of Lebanon.  But I lock my car ALWAYS even if I'm just returning the trolley at the supermarket.

I'm almost sad that JDM was available for this episode.  I would've so enjoyed a story about the boys and their hometown - maybe something along the lines of It's a Wonderful Life.

[ILoveReading]

I wonder if the original plot of the episode was suppose to be Baby getting stolen and interacting with the towns people while chasing down leads. 

9 hours ago, kickingnames said:

The headcanon that makes the most sense for me is that the only way the pearl could come up with to remove Michael from Dean’s head in 2019 was by removing John from the timeline in 2003.

I don't think the pearl was actually removing Michael.

I'm still trying to figure out why Sam would even suggest the pearl in the first place since they aren't naive anymore and know that using a cursed object will never work the way you want it too.   Why wouldn't Dean wonder where Michael would go before wishing.

I think Dean still believes his fate is to end up at the bottom of the ocean.  I also don't believe Dean would wish Michael out of his head if they didn't have a way to stop him.   So, I think the pearl read Dean's mind about wishing he could see his dad one last time before it becomes necessary.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Why wouldn't Dean wonder where Michael would go before wishing.

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think Dean still believes his fate is to end up at the bottom of the ocean.  I also don't believe Dean would wish Michael out of his head if they didn't have a way to stop him.  

I'm pretty sure he was wishing Michael was dead.  2 birds, 1 stone.

[SueB]

10 hours ago, rue721 said:

Dean's storyline didn't make any sense to me, though. The more I think about it, the more confused it seems. First, the pearl senses that Dean's most heartfelt wish is for John to be there. But then when John actually shows up, Dean makes a big point that he's completely at peace with how his life has turned out without John, because he's got a loving family and he's saving the world. But then when Sam and Dean discover what their lives would be if John had disappeared for good in '03, Dean is ALSO delighted by the version of himself that's a lone wolf hunting relative small fry, no family and no saving the world AND no John. I mean, at least two of those three options of what Dean wants have GOT to be bullshit, because they all contradict each other. Any of those three options seem plausible, I would have been OK with the show going with any one of them. Or maybe Dean could believe that one of them is true but then discover that another is true over the course of the episode, whatever. Regardless, it seemed like the show wasn't seeing a contradiction at all? So Dean was just hopping all over the place emotionally and his storyline felt (to me) nonsensical.

I think 2 were true and 1 was bullshit.  I think Dean's desire to have his OG family back together was ALWAYS his deepest desire.  And sometimes we cling to those desires even if it may not still be needed.  So, when John came back and Dean GOT his heart's desire (briefly), Dean was able to say ... that was fantastic but you know what?  I'm good.  I'm actually really good with my 'found family'.  Would he have loved for John to have stayed.  ABSOLUTELY.  But perhaps his declaration of "I have a family" to his FATHER (the ultimate approval authority in Dean's DNA -- despite understanding how screwed up their live were) helped cement "I'm good."  In short, when he held the pearl, having his original family back together was his deepest desire.  Through the course of the story, he realized that he was actually okay with how things turned out and he has a found family that he loves just as much.  Doesn't mean he doesn't love John.  Just means he's at peace with where he is.  So... both of those were true IMO.

Alone & wanted is "cool"?  Well, it wasn't stated as his heart's desire but it was a helluva lot better than Sammy's TED talk.  So his AR version would be the bullshit version.  But I don't think Dean really endorsed it as "the greatest", more like "at least I'm cool... you are .... ".  

[catrox14]

16 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

When John wakes up in 2003 and clearly remembers. Could that be used to explain everything he does later? In other words did he disappear, get them back together etc so that he made sure they saved the world?   

I really hope not. Because that alters the entire premise of what the boys experienced and wlidly rewrites John's motivation from being about vengeance which screwed up the boys to being a noble act. I have to go with John deciding it was just a weird dream.

Funny enough if they did go with that as a motive, John still did what he did, he still fucked up Dean and made Sam sad and mad.

The other thing that bugs that the show is whitewashing the tragic choices made by saying the boys saved the world without acknowledging they did things that broke it in the first place and they had to atone for their dickups. That's one of the things that makes the story a tragedy, but Dabb seems determined to make it into a fantasy hero worship show instead of the beautiful story of tragedy and redemption.

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't think the pearl was actually removing Michael.

I'm still trying to figure out why Sam would even suggest the pearl in the first place since they aren't naive anymore and know that using a cursed object will never work the way you want it too.   Why wouldn't Dean wonder where Michael would go before wishing.

I thought it was magical object vs a cursed object... But I'm sure I missed something because I only watched it once.