S05.E04: Rebirth

[MsTree]

Why would they put Jazz on puberty blockers knowing they would need mature skin to invert?

[kicotan]

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

Isn't Medicare for retired folks?

Sorry, I should have said Medicaid in some states-for example, Nevada.

[MissTeacher13]

4 hours ago, MsTree said:

Why would they put Jazz on puberty blockers knowing they would need mature skin to invert?

I think this is to avoid Jazz going through male puberty, thus possibly causing some psychological challenges. However, there is obviously a consequence to this action. I guess they thought it was the best option and worth the risk. 

[Visaman666]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

No, that isn’t true, there was no legal age she had to be. In fact, there has been no legal age for any procedures she has had, only parental consent and in the case of bottom surgery she needed to get two letters from psychologists stating she was emotionally/mentally stable and ready for surgery (though many of us doubt she was/is, but we'll see), and she had to lose weight, and I’m sure another parental consent form since she wasn’t 18 yet.  In fact, her friend had bottom surgery when she was about 15 or so, and Jazz had her surgery at age 17, last June I believe it was. Her father and IIRC others had suggested she wait until she turned 18 and finished high school, but Jazz gets what Jazz wants and she wanted the surgery ASAP so she got it this past summer, when she was 17. The premise was that she could recover over the summer before senior year of HS began.

Jazz turned 18 a few days before the surgery. Well, OK. In Canada one has to be 18. On Macri Bower's website she mentions 18 is the minimum age for bottom surgery.

[doodlebug]

5 hours ago, MsTree said:

Why would they put Jazz on puberty blockers knowing they would need mature skin to invert?

Because some of the stuff that comes with puberty in boys, like a deeper voice and facial hair, is permanent and cannot be reversed later. Jazz’ friend Nicole is an example of someone who didn’t have puberty blocked and she has a much deeper voice and I expect she has to work on facial hair removal.  For those with gender dysphoria, it can be psychologically very difficult to accept these things which cannot be changed and, also, can make it more difficult to live their lives as a transperson because others will be more likely to suspect their transition and harass and mistreat them.  Also, it’s important to realize that not every transperson is going to have bottom surgery, so worrying about whether there will be enough genital tissue for a surgery that may never be done vs making it easier for the transperson to live in the outside world as they wish can be a difficult decision and either way has its pros and cons. 

Medicare, in addition to senior citizens, provides health care coverage to the disabled, too, and there are people of all ages using it. Also, I am a gynecologist and, believe me, there are plenty of senior citizens out there who may not want a ‘pretty’ vagina, but they want/ need a functional one and some of the procedures that we call cosmetic can serve a dual purpose and make someone’s sex life possible or at least less uncomfortable/painful.

Edited January 25, 2019 by doodlebug

[blatantlyobvious]

4 hours ago, Visaman666 said:

Jazz turned 18 a few days before the surgery. Well, OK. In Canada one has to be 18. On Macri Bower's website she mentions 18 is the minimum age for bottom surgery.

Jazz was 17 at the time of the surgery (June 2018)- she turned 18 in October (birthdate is October 6, 2000)

[gingerella]

48 minutes ago, asemumma said:

Jazz was 17 at the time of the surgery (June 2018)- she turned 18 in October (birthdate is October 6, 2000)

Thank you! @J. Matazz has also confirmed as a patient of Dr. Bowers, that the minimum age is 17.

[Fostersmom]

5 hours ago, MissTeacher13 said:

I think this is to avoid Jazz going through male puberty, thus possibly causing some psychological challenges. However, there is obviously a consequence to this action. I guess they thought it was the best option and worth the risk. 

How old was Jazz when they did the first set of blockers? I wonder if now that this is more common if they wait just a bit longer to allow for more physical growth, but still delay puberty. Wasn't this much more rare when then had it done? if so, it was still in the learning stages of medicine to see the later outcome. Unfortunately, a lot of science is trial and error and learned results. It would seem there's been pros and cons to the young blockers. 

[janey99]

20 hours ago, gingerella said:

You say that like you're new to the Jennings family and to viewing Jazz's rudimentary grasp on basic manners and hygiene. Welcome!

Hah, you're right, I've been watching this show since the beginning, why would her lack of manners surprise me!  Maybe I should be shocked at Jeannette - I have a 20 yo, and I would have strongly suggested they "hold it" rather than pee inches away from someone's gravemarker.

You should have gone before we left the hotel . . . . .

[MissTeacher13]

4 hours ago, Fostersmom said:

How old was Jazz when they did the first set of blockers? I wonder if now that this is more common if they wait just a bit longer to allow for more physical growth, but still delay puberty. Wasn't this much more rare when then had it done? if so, it was still in the learning stages of medicine to see the later outcome. Unfortunately, a lot of science is trial and error and learned results. It would seem there's been pros and cons to the young blockers. 

I’m not sure but I’ll guess she was around 11-13. I think puberty blockers are more common now (well that’s from the information I have from trans people I know). 

[Twopper]

2 hours ago, janey99 said:

Hah, you're right, I've been watching this show since the beginning, why would her lack of manners surprise me!  Maybe I should be shocked at Jeannette - I have a 20 yo, and I would have strongly suggested they "hold it" rather than pee inches away from someone's gravemarker.

She mentioned "peeing standing up" in another episode this season.  I cannot recall ever hearing her mention it before, and now she has referred to it twice in one season.  I think she hasn't mentioned it before because it is (1) a private function and(2) it reminds her of the part of her she wants to be rid of.   Now she wants to remind us that she has these bottom parts that need removing.  I am not sure I expressed that clearly.  I think they went into some woods that may have been across the road from cemetery.   Sometime she reminds me of a 13 yo boy.

[J. Matazz]

On 1/22/2019 at 9:56 PM, Concerned said:

What I wonder about many of these shows is why do people participate. What’s in it for Jazz and her family to televise their private moments. The dad’s a lawyer so it’s not like they need money. The lure of fame and fortune must be irrisitable. Whitney and her crew, however, seem completely unemployable if not for their TV show.

Honestly, I genuinely would have put all of my life in front of a camera like this for the money and fame, yeah, sure. But, honestly, there isn't a whole lot out there on youth, children, and teens going through this process in a long-form media work. To make that difference to others, be it, individuals, parents, or loved ones, that's why I'd do this, first and foremost. You can choose not to believe her, but Jeanette has also said as much as to their motivation previously, albeit not in media. It does help people.

 

Much as I knew who I was from age two, Jeanette and Greg many moons ago were the first physical parents I saw that not only understood but accepted who their daughter is and was. That means quite a lot to know you aren't alone out there and that your parents can make this journey a reality! If you had an opportunity to shape the narrative of the world the way that would help you, wouldn't you grab it? They did, and while (unfortunately, personally speaking) not to Jazz's level of reach, I did the same for the same reasons. Some folks like Whitney...yeah, I don't get that. At all. That feels like pure showmanship without any societal benefit.

 

On 1/23/2019 at 5:09 AM, Honey said:

Grandpa cracks me up.  He thinks boobs are pretty, but anything below that is not so good looking, but it gets the job done.  That's kind of how I feel.  Vaginas aren't pretty, they're functional.

I can't imagine the pain of this surgery.  It must be incredibly painful just to sit, walk, pee.  Ugh, bring on the painkillers.

 

Jack is funnier in person! Always a wry smile, clever phrasing in what he says, yet very reflective upon what he sees--and they make that apparent in the show. I'm always reminded by my mother how much Jack told her she reminds her of (off camera) Jeanette. Always the organizer, the planner, getting things done with a head of steam, a wee bit emotional.

 

He and Jackie had an interesting remark about Jazz and I a few years back...that as fortunate as we were to have this process done relatively early in life, it was furthermore made easier by (book) smarts. It's an angle I hadn't seriously considered until that point, but he made a very solid point. After all, makes it easier to think of ways to deal with this type of matter, how to (not) respond to haters, and ultimately, how to respond to media heads. (Oh god the same 10-20 freaking questions they ask, haha.) I feel the same way about my parts as he describes them. Does the job, but wins a beauty pageant every time compared to the alternative. When you order a taco, you don't order a hot dog, right?

 

Surgery pain, eh, not too too bad. Hurt like hell the first night, to the point where I wondered why I needed this done, although it was maybe a 2/10 after? Morphine necessary, with an icepack on the genitals, combined with the Percocet. Sitting in a moving shuttle, from the hospital wheelchair was awful a few days out, sitting was reasonable, standing no. Hell no. Took a good week and a half to not writhe while doing so, so food prep was quite the bother in the hotel. Peeing isn't too bad...if you can deal with a garden hose urethra that sprays pee everywhere after your genital origami for the first few months. First time doing so was like, how am I going to angle this right? Is this going to work? How does it get out? Gosh, I feel swollen, better not fall off the toilet seat. WHAT IF MY PEE IS STUCK IN ME!? Oh, okay, let loose. This is easier than before. Sure is awkward having the nurses watch though, I hate that they know I'm new at this. Don't forget to wipe!

 

Waiting for a bowel concerned me though, contrastingly, given all the bowel prep like for a colonoscopy had me concerned. I was thrilled when gas happened because it had been a few days. Thank heavens for stool softener. Easy does it. Hope I don't get any on the lips, ewww, gross...look down to be sure. Whew. WIPE THOROUGHLY! Oh my god, I can do these the right now...finally. :)

 

On 1/23/2019 at 9:53 PM, gingerella said:

The whole blubbering scene where Jeanette is crying about how this surgery is SO REAL and SO WEIRD because she gave birth to a son but now she's getting a daughter...blah blah blah fishcakes, bitch! She acts like she's Trans Rights Numero Uno supporter and she says this on camera? I thought that was the weirdest thing she could have possibly said. I mean, it seemed sincere, but given the number of years she's had to process this, and the fact that even though doctors and her husband wanted Jazz to wait til she's 18, Jeanette's been pushing for this surgery as much as Jazz has, so all of a sudden she's 'losing a son'? What the fuckity fuck Jeanette?!?

This happened with my mother too, my biggest advocate...it's the finality, the reality of it. In theory, hormones could be stopped, toys and the like are temporary. But surgery is forever. Nothing physically apparent exists of the sex of the child birthed. It's a final goodbye to that person, of sorts.

 

On 1/24/2019 at 1:02 PM, gingerella said:

No, that isn’t true, there was no legal age she had to be. In fact, there has been no legal age for any procedures she has had, only parental consent and in the case of bottom surgery she needed to get two letters from psychologists stating she was emotionally/mentally stable and ready for surgery (though many of us doubt she was/is, but we'll see), and she had to lose weight, and I’m sure another parental consent form since she wasn’t 18 yet.  In fact, her friend had bottom surgery when she was about 15 or so, and Jazz had her surgery at age 17, last June I believe it was. Her father and IIRC others had suggested she wait until she turned 18 and finished high school, but Jazz gets what Jazz wants and she wanted the surgery ASAP so she got it this past summer, when she was 17. The premise was that she could recover over the summer before senior year of HS began.

 

Very, very true. The interesting part about this is, at least in North America, that it absolutely depends on what surgeon you go to for a minimum age. Bowers, as I've said a few times, and as you know, is 17. However, go to a Dr. Brassard in Montreal, that's 18, and Dr. Christine McGinn in Philadelphia, featured last season (not a TLC staging!) has her minimum set at 16.

 

10 hours ago, Fostersmom said:

How old was Jazz when they did the first set of blockers? I wonder if now that this is more common if they wait just a bit longer to allow for more physical growth, but still delay puberty. Wasn't this much more rare when then had it done? if so, it was still in the learning stages of medicine to see the later outcome. Unfortunately, a lot of science is trial and error and learned results. It would seem there's been pros and cons to the young blockers. 

13 years old, March 2014. When we presented together that June, Jazz was really happy to share off her scar with me about where they put the blocker (underside of the arm) and hormone implant in, and told us she had just started the hormones at that point. The common medical practice time to do this with individuals transitioning to female as at the start of Tanner II, which isn't absolute in terms of age experienced by the patient. It's why, prior to filming this show, Jazz (or anyone else) would need frequent doctor appointments to smash the brakes on puberty before it hit, to check hormonal/endocrine levels. 

 

21 hours ago, MsTree said:

Why would they put Jazz on puberty blockers knowing they would need mature skin to invert?

The alternative is male puberty. Even with the downsides of potential lack of surgery material, I would have traded that in a heartbeat not to go through that hell. Voice changes, facial hair, bone structure, hips concerns, facial features, etc. would all masculinize. Genuinely makes you live a nightmare, and good luck being seen as female by anyone passing you by at that specific point. To let you know personally of this severity? I did this stuff in my late teens, so about...Noelle's age? 10 years ago? I still, STILL have deep thoughts and pain about why I started this so late, leading to depressive, tear-laded outbursts about the cruelty of fate, to have permanent markers of my past.

--

 

As for the show itself, I love that they focused on Jack for a decent portion of the show proper. Nice little change of pace. Family sticking together just made for good personal memories, to be there, and to support one another, especially in a time of need, and that applies for both Jack and Jazz here. A bond of love really can beat a heavy dose of pain from swollen body parts. A beautiful moment, really. It's something I hope and am pretty sure Jazz and Jack appreciate, but it's an intangible in recovery that you just can't put into words.

 

The standing up stuff, uhhhhhh, ew? I would never. Last time I remember doing so was a one-off in 7th grade. Because I was going to miss my bus otherwise. It felt wrong, I knew it was wrong, but as a matter of practicality, yeah, sometimes life gives no other alternative.

 

Color me surprised, and, frankly, disappointed, more of the immediate pre-preparation for surgery was not shown. AT ALL. Missed opportunity. Not just the check-in for the hospital and however long that takes, rivaling the DMV in anticipation, but also the necessary medicines and supplies you need to buy. All the tight-fitting underwear, all the pads, and, of course, a good hundred getting a gallon of rancid water tasting bowel prep. That's something most people will never know about, including a liquids-only diet the day before, and getting a reaction face from Jazz drinking it would've been kind of somehow been simultaneously amusing and educational. Like, how you cope with that day is something else. Do you get hunger pangs? Wash it down with more water? How do you keep up the motivation to keep drinking and drinking, holding it down, AND not be envious of eating family members? Eugh. That was the worst part of all of this, end of story.

Edited January 26, 2019 by J. Matazz

[Honey]

On 1/24/2019 at 8:42 PM, gingerella said:

Isn't Medicare for retired folks?

Also, if Jazz really wants a perfect vaj, she needs to go to Bangkok, the epicenter of cosmetic and trans surgery. You'd think it'd be enough to get the correct genitalia...finally...but nope, still whining about it being "pretty".

I'm sorry, but vaginas are not "pretty".  Neither are penises for that matter.  Functional, not pretty.

And while we're on the subject, the vagina is INTERNAL, so unless she's using a speculum, she isn't' going to see it anyway.  Labia, vulva, yeah you can see them, but the vagina....no.  It's not just Jazz, everyone seems to do this nowadays.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Honey

[readheaded]

On 1/24/2019 at 11:49 AM, bichonblitz said:

 

Sounds to me like the Jeanette and Greg didn't know what they were doing by putting Jazz on the blockers at such a young age. I wonder if they feel any guilt about that. 

They probably used what was the best medical advice at the time, which can change quickly and then be irrevocable.  I hope that if they did their due diligence when they made the decision to use the blockers, that they don't feel guilty about it now.  I have 2 kids on a biological, that can have nasty side-effects, to treat a chronic illness.  But that's what the doctors we see and the prevailing medical research says to do.  They've been on it about 5 years, and even in that time, the dosing recommendations have changed.  It's very difficult to know what to do sometimes and we just try to do the best we can.

[calpurnia99]

I don't think not having enough tissue to do bottom surgery was even brought up when they started the hormone blockers. I do not think this was mentioned to Jazz or the parents. Not on purpose, but just something not on anyone's radar at the time.  It was not as if this was stated as a drawback and they all said we will deal with that when the time comes, or we will take that risk. In fact when they first learned that Jazz had not enough tissue due to puberty blockers, their reaction to that shows they never heard of this before. I certainly never did, before this show I doubt it was common knowledge,

Edited January 26, 2019 by calpurnia99

[gingerella]

14 minutes ago, calpurnia99 said:

I don't think not having enough tissue to do bottom surgery was even brought up when they started the hormone blockers. I do not think this was mentioned to Jazz or the parents. Not on purpose, but just something not on anyone's radar at the time.  It was not as if this was stated as a drawback and they all said we will deal with that when the time comes, or we will take that risk. In fact when they first learned that Jazz had not enough tissue due to puberty blockers, their reaction to that shows they never heard of this before. I certainly never did, before this show I doubt it was common knowledge,

IIRC, there's a key aspect you're all forgetting...while it appears that the doctors didn't realize just how suppressed Jazz would be (trial and error when blazing new ground), Jazz was told by umteen doctors that she would need to have a specific type of vaginoplasty because she didn't have enough natural tissue down there. But Jazz being Jazz, didn't want that surgery - was it with the colon and she wasnt willing to deal with the smell and secretions or something like that? - she kept looking and looking until someone agreed to do it using other skin from another part of her body. So a lot of this is because A: the medical community didn't have enough info on what suppression does for such a young kid (though her friend Skylar didn't mention the same issue), and B: She wasn't willing to do the surgery the way several doctors suggested would be best.

[possibilities]

Some people do think vulvas are beautiful! Has anyone seen Judy Chicago's "Dinner Party"? Decades ago, there was a book called "Labiaflowers" that was going around the lesbian community. I've also seen another book of photos-- I forget the name of it, but it's an artsy book of exposed vulvas. To each their own, I say! I speak as a cis lesbian. I respect that not everyone likes the view. I personally find penises repulsive. But there are some who like the looks of those, as well.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Some people do think vulvas are beautiful! Has anyone seen Judy Chicago's "Dinner Party"? Decades ago, there was a book called "Labiaflowers" that was going around the lesbian community. I've also seen another book of photos-- I forget the name of it, but it's an artsy book of exposed vulvas. To each their own, I say! I speak as a cis lesbian. I respect that not everyone likes the view. I personally find penises repulsive. But there are some who like the looks of those, as well.

Yes!

There are some people that care about how their genitalia looks. (Men and women)  I speak as a heterosexual woman, I enjoy looking a nicely formed penis🤣.

I think Jazz just wants to be “typical” and to feel “normal”- seems like a thing many teenagers want.

I get annoyed when she calls a vulva, a vagina; but outside of the medical community that’s a common thing Ive noticed. Otherwise her talk doesn’t  doesn’t bother me. She’s excited! She’s wanted this for such a long time. 

[Muffyn]

There was a moment in this episode or the last where Jazz moved away from saying "pretty" vagina.  Ultimately she seems to be looking for genitals that fit within norms; that is, nothing that looks seriously odd.  Too some extent I think she kept saying "pretty vagina" (or just vagina) to get a rise out of her parents.  Greg does show his embarrassment. And yes, Americans need education on the difference between a vagina and a vulva.  (Thinks to Laverne Cox's character explaining genitalia to the other prisoners on Orange is the New Black.) To some extent I blame Oprah with her infamous, "My vajayjay is hurtin'!"

I will say that I do not find vulvas unattractive.  I have seen more than my share throughout the years.  I don't see anything ugly there.  There has definitely been a shift in expectations based on the porn-perfect vulva that has women going in for labia surgery, typically to reduce the labia.  I find this interesting given that there are other cultures where large or long labia are considered ideal.  It seems that no matter the body part, we are always told there is something wrong with it. 

I assume the extended doctor shopping was plot driven.  I also assume being told she might need a second surgery was for drama.  Dr. Bowers has an excellent reputation; she and the team worked hard to find the best possible solution.  I don't see her pulling a last minute bait and switch.     

[ClareWalks]

If what Jazz means by pretty vagina is "one that isn't obviously surgically produced," she needs to start saying that. This "I want a pretty pretty vagina" stuff sounds immature and silly, but if what she actually means is that her dysphoria makes her concerned that her new genitals won't "look authentic," that's much more understandable.

[gingerella]

On 1/27/2019 at 3:45 PM, Muffyn said:

I assume the extended doctor shopping was plot driven.  I also assume being told she might need a second surgery was for drama.  Dr. Bowers has an excellent reputation; she and the team worked hard to find the best possible solution.  I don't see her pulling a last minute bait and switch.     

Have you watched the entire series? I ask because it's been Jazz who time and time again has insisted that they go somewhere for yet another consultation because she didn't like the options all the other doctors were giving her, which IIRC, were all fairly similar. It really does not appear to be plot driven. She was already told about two surgeries by most of the doctors she consulted but she didn't like that so she kept pushing for one single surgery, which Dr. Bowers said she could do. I doubt Dr. Bower's would put herself out there as unprofessional or wishy washy just to satiate TLCs desire for drama, I'd like to think her professional rep was more important that that, but who honestly knows...?

Edited January 29, 2019 by gingerella

[SongbirdHollow]

On 1/26/2019 at 12:12 AM, J. Matazz said:

Honestly, I genuinely would have put all of my life in front of a camera like this for the money and fame, yeah, sure. But, honestly, there isn't a whole lot out there on youth, children, and teens going through this process in a long-form media work. To make that difference to others, be it, individuals, parents, or loved ones, that's why I'd do this, first and foremost. You can choose not to believe her, but Jeanette has also said as much as to their motivation previously, albeit not in media. It does help people.

 

Much as I knew who I was from age two, Jeanette and Greg many moons ago were the first physical parents I saw that not only understood but accepted who their daughter is and was. That means quite a lot to know you aren't alone out there and that your parents can make this journey a reality! If you had an opportunity to shape the narrative of the world the way that would help you, wouldn't you grab it? They did, and while (unfortunately, personally speaking) not to Jazz's level of reach, I did the same for the same reasons. Some folks like Whitney...yeah, I don't get that. At all. That feels like pure showmanship without any societal benefit.

 

Jack is funnier in person! Always a wry smile, clever phrasing in what he says, yet very reflective upon what he sees--and they make that apparent in the show. I'm always reminded by my mother how much Jack told her she reminds her of (off camera) Jeanette. Always the organizer, the planner, getting things done with a head of steam, a wee bit emotional.

 

He and Jackie had an interesting remark about Jazz and I a few years back...that as fortunate as we were to have this process done relatively early in life, it was furthermore made easier by (book) smarts. It's an angle I hadn't seriously considered until that point, but he made a very solid point. After all, makes it easier to think of ways to deal with this type of matter, how to (not) respond to haters, and ultimately, how to respond to media heads. (Oh god the same 10-20 freaking questions they ask, haha.) I feel the same way about my parts as he describes them. Does the job, but wins a beauty pageant every time compared to the alternative. When you order a taco, you don't order a hot dog, right?

 

Surgery pain, eh, not too too bad. Hurt like hell the first night, to the point where I wondered why I needed this done, although it was maybe a 2/10 after? Morphine necessary, with an icepack on the genitals, combined with the Percocet. Sitting in a moving shuttle, from the hospital wheelchair was awful a few days out, sitting was reasonable, standing no. Hell no. Took a good week and a half to not writhe while doing so, so food prep was quite the bother in the hotel. Peeing isn't too bad...if you can deal with a garden hose urethra that sprays pee everywhere after your genital origami for the first few months. First time doing so was like, how am I going to angle this right? Is this going to work? How does it get out? Gosh, I feel swollen, better not fall off the toilet seat. WHAT IF MY PEE IS STUCK IN ME!? Oh, okay, let loose. This is easier than before. Sure is awkward having the nurses watch though, I hate that they know I'm new at this. Don't forget to wipe!

 

Waiting for a bowel concerned me though, contrastingly, given all the bowel prep like for a colonoscopy had me concerned. I was thrilled when gas happened because it had been a few days. Thank heavens for stool softener. Easy does it. Hope I don't get any on the lips, ewww, gross...look down to be sure. Whew. WIPE THOROUGHLY! Oh my god, I can do these the right now...finally. :)

 

This happened with my mother too, my biggest advocate...it's the finality, the reality of it. In theory, hormones could be stopped, toys and the like are temporary. But surgery is forever. Nothing physically apparent exists of the sex of the child birthed. It's a final goodbye to that person, of sorts.

 

Very, very true. The interesting part about this is, at least in North America, that it absolutely depends on what surgeon you go to for a minimum age. Bowers, as I've said a few times, and as you know, is 17. However, go to a Dr. Brassard in Montreal, that's 18, and Dr. Christine McGinn in Philadelphia, featured last season (not a TLC staging!) has her minimum set at 16.

 

13 years old, March 2014. When we presented together that June, Jazz was really happy to share off her scar with me about where they put the blocker (underside of the arm) and hormone implant in, and told us she had just started the hormones at that point. The common medical practice time to do this with individuals transitioning to female as at the start of Tanner II, which isn't absolute in terms of age experienced by the patient. It's why, prior to filming this show, Jazz (or anyone else) would need frequent doctor appointments to smash the brakes on puberty before it hit, to check hormonal/endocrine levels. 

 

The alternative is male puberty. Even with the downsides of potential lack of surgery material, I would have traded that in a heartbeat not to go through that hell. Voice changes, facial hair, bone structure, hips concerns, facial features, etc. would all masculinize. Genuinely makes you live a nightmare, and good luck being seen as female by anyone passing you by at that specific point. To let you know personally of this severity? I did this stuff in my late teens, so about...Noelle's age? 10 years ago? I still, STILL have deep thoughts and pain about why I started this so late, leading to depressive, tear-laded outbursts about the cruelty of fate, to have permanent markers of my past.

--

 

As for the show itself, I love that they focused on Jack for a decent portion of the show proper. Nice little change of pace. Family sticking together just made for good personal memories, to be there, and to support one another, especially in a time of need, and that applies for both Jack and Jazz here. A bond of love really can beat a heavy dose of pain from swollen body parts. A beautiful moment, really. It's something I hope and am pretty sure Jazz and Jack appreciate, but it's an intangible in recovery that you just can't put into words.

 

The standing up stuff, uhhhhhh, ew? I would never. Last time I remember doing so was a one-off in 7th grade. Because I was going to miss my bus otherwise. It felt wrong, I knew it was wrong, but as a matter of practicality, yeah, sometimes life gives no other alternative.

 

Color me surprised, and, frankly, disappointed, more of the immediate pre-preparation for surgery was not shown. AT ALL. Missed opportunity. Not just the check-in for the hospital and however long that takes, rivaling the DMV in anticipation, but also the necessary medicines and supplies you need to buy. All the tight-fitting underwear, all the pads, and, of course, a good hundred getting a gallon of rancid water tasting bowel prep. That's something most people will never know about, including a liquids-only diet the day before, and getting a reaction face from Jazz drinking it would've been kind of somehow been simultaneously amusing and educational. Like, how you cope with that day is something else. Do you get hunger pangs? Wash it down with more water? How do you keep up the motivation to keep drinking and drinking, holding it down, AND not be envious of eating family members? Eugh. That was the worst part of all of this, end of story.

Thank you. I was going to ask about the pre prep as I just had a colonoscopy yesterday and thought there had to be more to her surgery than they showed. 

[calpurnia99]

On 1/26/2019 at 6:29 PM, gingerella said:

IIRC, there's a key aspect you're all forgetting...while it appears that the doctors didn't realize just how suppressed Jazz would be (trial and error when blazing new ground), Jazz was told by umteen doctors that she would need to have a specific type of vaginoplasty because she didn't have enough natural tissue down there. But Jazz being Jazz, didn't want that surgery - was it with the colon and she wasnt willing to deal with the smell and secretions or something like that? - she kept looking and looking until someone agreed to do it using other skin from another part of her body. So a lot of this is because A: the medical community didn't have enough info on what suppression does for such a young kid (though her friend Skylar didn't mention the same issue), and B: She wasn't willing to do the surgery the way several doctors suggested would be best.

Yes this was when she went to talk to the first doctor about the vaginoplasty. The first doctor, who was local, told her she didn't have enough material for a standard vaginoplasty. I believe this was the first time the family realized this would be an issue. This was new ground, as there have no been a lot of teens supressed pre-puberty who then went on to have a vaginoplasty so I do not think this was something that was given any thought, in that it was brand new ground. This doctor offered the colon surgery as her best option and Jazz didn't like this because of the temporary odor. She went to see another doctor who also told her it would be impossible and that he would need to do 2 surgeries at least. So she kept going around until Marci Bowers told her that she could give her a standard vaginoplasty in ONE surgery! I was shocked How Dr. Bowers could do something the other doctors could not!  This was the answer Jazz wanted to hear. After telling Jazz this, Dr. Bowers realized she really could NOT do what she promised Jazz so she partnered with the other doctor in NYC and they came up with using the stomach lining and 2 surgeries. The classic Bait and Switch?

[Mollysmom]

On 1/23/2019 at 1:08 PM, calpurnia99 said:

I thought it was weird the entire family went to the hospital. Whenever one of my kids had a procedure, I just took that kid, I left siblings at home. And grandparents. I mean did she need 10 people there with her?

I did enjoy the forecasted B-roll footage of New York City, every time they ran it I said "Ah! the B roll footage!!!" 

I've had over 100 surgeries, and usually just my parents came with. My last one I had a massive ovarian cyst that almost killed me. My sisters, BIL and parents were all there for the surgery. It was nice to have so much support when I had been so sick. It was a really big surgery. So I guess it depends on how serious the family thinks the surgery is going to be. 

[TwirlyGirly]

On 1/26/2019 at 12:12 AM, J. Matazz said:

<snip>

The alternative is male puberty. Even with the downsides of potential lack of surgery material, I would have traded that in a heartbeat not to go through that hell. Voice changes, facial hair, bone structure, hips concerns, facial features, etc. would all masculinize. Genuinely makes you live a nightmare, and good luck being seen as female by anyone passing you by at that specific point. To let you know personally of this severity? I did this stuff in my late teens, so about...Noelle's age? 10 years ago? I still, STILL have deep thoughts and pain about why I started this so late, leading to depressive, tear-laded outbursts about the cruelty of fate, to have permanent markers of my past.

<snip>

 

 

@J. Matazz: Your entire post is excellent, but I especially want to thank you for the portion I quoted, above.

About 20 years ago, I watched a documentary about gender dysphoria on cable. This was well before any children were being treated; all of those featured in the documentary were adults. There were both trans men and trans women included.

What made the most impression on me was how much easier it is for trans men to pass than trans women. Honestly, looking at *any* of the trans men nobody would ever expect they were assigned female at birth. Not so, unfortunately, for the trans women.

We underestimate the number of very visible *skeletal* changes a boy's body goes through during puberty; much more so than a girl's.

You mentioned most of them, but I would add to your list changes to the hands and feet, too. 

Some of these things can be feminized with surgery (Adam's apple, jaw size and shape), but many cannot (broad shoulders, hand and foot size, etc). I think this is why so many more trans women than trans men are attacked and murdered; because they're much more easily identified by those who would do transgender people harm.

While I understand why so many think Jazz should have waited to begin the puberty blockers because it would have made the bottom surgery easier, doing so would also make feminizing the parts of her body that are publicly visible much more difficult and in some cases, impossible. And that could ultimately prove a risk to her safety. Because the ability to "pass" successfully is a major factor in the safety of those who are transgender.

So, having less-than-perfect genitalia may be a good trade-off if not going through puberty makes it more likely Jazz, and other young trans women, will be accepted by others as female, instead of being seen as a "man in a dress".

Edited January 30, 2019 by TwirlyGirly
Added the word *skeletal* for clarification

[calpurnia99]

15 hours ago, Mollysmom said:

I've had over 100 surgeries, and usually just my parents came with. My last one I had a massive ovarian cyst that almost killed me. My sisters, BIL and parents were all there for the surgery. It was nice to have so much support when I had been so sick. It was a really big surgery. So I guess it depends on how serious the family thinks the surgery is going to be. 

I understand the whole family going to be there for you, but after you wake up for support. I get that they are on a reality show so they all had to go. I thought all 10 being there for the check-in was actually too much. You can't crowd 10 people into the room where they do the pre-op stuff. 4 of them would have been plenty and the rest can go see her afterwards. Just having 10 people underfoot while they are trying to get her ready is a bit much.

[Mollysmom]

I have never been to a hospital where they allow any family member back where they prep you for surgery, so that I can see - I don't know why the hospital allowed it. 

[blatantlyobvious]

25 minutes ago, Mollysmom said:

I have never been to a hospital where they allow any family member back where they prep you for surgery, so that I can see - I don't know why the hospital allowed it. 

My step-dad was in the hospital last month, and when he had to go in for a procedure, we were allowed to stay with him in the prep area. There were only three of us (my mom, sister, and I) not a huge crowd like Jazz had, but it's not exactly unheard of. The hospital staff didn't bat an eye with the three of us in the prep room with him, but it wasn't as large as the room Jazz was in. 

[Bastet]

28 minutes ago, Mollysmom said:

I have never been to a hospital where they allow any family member back where they prep you for surgery, so that I can see - I don't know why the hospital allowed it. 

I've always had my parents with me, and always been with them, in pre-op.  Not immediately, though -- the patient gets changed into a gown and has their IV started -- but once the nurse's work is done and it's just wait time, family is allowed to hang out until transport comes, at which point the patient is off to the OR and the family to the waiting room.  The surgeon comes into the waiting room when she or he is done with the procedure to say how it went and answer any questions while the patient is settled into Recovery, and then family can go join the patient in Recovery until it's time to follow them to their hospital room (if being admitted) or take them home (if outpatient surgery).

[gingerella]

I think the point is getting lost that this is being filmed for a TV show and thus, there is a film crew with Jazz so I'm sure they provided the largest room they could, or provided an actual patient room with only one bed, so that the family and crew had enough room to film. This isn't exactly real life in many aspects of what we see.

[aliya]

On 1/25/2019 at 6:50 AM, doodlebug said:

Because some of the stuff that comes with puberty in boys, like a deeper voice and facial hair, is permanent and cannot be reversed later. Jazz’ friend Nicole is an example of someone who didn’t have puberty blocked and she has a much deeper voice and I expect she has to work on facial hair removal.  

The estrogen doesn't help keep things like facial hair under control?

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, aliya said:

The estrogen doesn't help keep things like facial hair under control?

Nope, it doesn't.  Once the hair follicles have been stimulated to grow by testosterone, they take on a life of their own.  Estrogen will prevent new hair follicles from growing but won't do a thing about the excess facial hair that is already there.  That's why many women who have 'moustaches' and the like need to wax, etc. to lessen the effect.  In someone who has a Y chromosome and gets exposed to testosterone at puberty, it is amplified.

[J. Matazz]

3 hours ago, aliya said:

The estrogen doesn't help keep things like facial hair under control?

It greatly reduced both quantity and locations with me but I'm like the only one I've ever heard of with this happening. Although, purely speculatively, it might be because I started as relatively early as I did and had very little to start with?

[Twopper]

On 1/29/2019 at 8:14 PM, TwirlyGirly said:

Some of these things can be feminized with surgery (Adam's apple, jaw size and shape), but many cannot (broad shoulders, hand and foot size, etc). I think this is why so many more trans women than trans men are attacked and murdered; because they're much more easily identified by those who would do transgender people harm.

While I understand why so many think Jazz should have waited to begin the puberty blockers because it would have made the bottom surgery easier, doing so would also make feminizing the parts of her body that are publicly visible much more difficult and in some cases, impossible. And that could ultimately prove a risk to her safety. Because the ability to "pass" successfully is a major factor in the safety of those who are transgender.

So, having less-than-perfect genitalia may be a good trade-off if not going through puberty makes it more likely Jazz, and other young trans women, will be accepted by others as female, instead of being seen as a "man in a dress".

I know a lot of FTM, and I think a lot of them do have trouble "passing."   Maybe, not as much if they do the puberty  blockers, but that is fairly recent.   The FTM in our family is very, very petite even after being on  T for a number of years.  He mostly looks very androgynous, and I really worry about his safety.   There are some angles where his face looks masculine, but some still look  more female.  There is a lot of variety in the group he hangs with-- from a few Peter Pan looking types to some that I was sure were always males.

[PrincessPurrsALot]

MOD NOTE

Folks, 

A reminder, transgender people were always the gender that they are.  So a trans woman was always a girl/woman. A trans man was always a boy/man.  It's easy to mix up in language. As always on this forum, intent matters.  If you slip, no problem.  If you have questions on the rules, PM the Mods @17wheatthins and @PrincessPurrsALot. If you have general questions regarding transgender persons, their experiences, etc., please head to A Place for Questions & Educational Links. There are some wonderful posters ready to provide answers.  

[Caracoa1]

I can understand why Jazz's  parents put her on blockers at such a young age.  Letting her go through male puberty would have been psychologically damaging to her and I'm sure they feared she may take her life.  If not for those blockers I'm sure she would have grown to look very similar to her brothers.... They are handsome young men.... But that would have been torture for Jazz.

[Nancy S]

On 1/23/2019 at 12:08 PM, calpurnia99 said:

I thought it was weird the entire family went to the hospital. Whenever one of my kids had a procedure, I just took that kid, I left siblings at home. And grandparents. I mean did she need 10 people there with her?

I did enjoy the forecasted B-roll footage of New York City, every time they ran it I said "Ah! the B roll footage!!!" 

I totally agree with you. Every time I see all the family at one of the doctor appointments, especially the ones out of town, I just wonder, WTF!  Nice way to blow money that will be needed for future medical expenses (unless TLC is paying for everything). I cannot imagine the brothers and sister wanting to be there for the appointments and surgery.