The Not So Merry...Supporting Cast

[Password]

If someone with bad intentions gets a hold of Ray's robotics, bad things will happen. Starling City could be turned into rubble with his explosive devices. I hope he has a good padlock.

This story of feeling helpless and wanting to become a hero to help the helpless is boring me. That probably makes me terrible, but gimme a hero that wants adoring fans instead so I can hate on them.

[quarks]

This story of feeling helpless and wanting to become a hero to help the helpless is boring me. That probably makes me terrible, but gimme a hero that wants adoring fans instead so I can hate on them.

 

Have you seen Hulu's The Awesomes?  A couple of the characters on that show are pretty much just like that.

[Password]

Have you seen Hulu's The Awesomes?  A couple of the characters on that show are pretty much just like that.

No but now my curiosity is peaked.

[quarks]

It's an animated comedy superhero show, with a couple of superheroes who are only interested in their fanbases. I'm not fond of all of the supporting characters, but it has its amusing moments. 

Edited January 20, 2015 by quarks

[Agent Dark]

This story of feeling helpless and wanting to become a hero to help the helpless is boring me. That probably makes me terrible, but gimme a hero that wants adoring fans instead so I can hate on them.

DC has a character like this - Booster Gold.  He's a time-traveller from the future, where he was a failed sportstar turned janitor.  He gets an idea to travel back in time (with a "borrowed" Legion of Superheroes power ring lol) to current day Earth, alongside his robot sidekick Skeets, and uses Skeet's knowledge of future events to become a Superhero and gain the adoration of the public.  His costume is basically like a Racing Team jumpsuit with all his sponsors logos over it, and he never misses a camera opportunity to promote himself (and his sponsor's products) when he 'conveniently' turns up to save the day.

 

I'm pretty sure there was talk of a Booster Gold TV series at some point too.  I think they used his character on Smallville, but he would fit in nicely on The Flash imo

[calliope1975]

I'm pretty sure there was talk of a Booster Gold TV series at some point too.  I think they used his character on Smallville, but he would fit in nicely on The Flash imo

 

I think Danny Franks and I joked long ago that Booster Gold would be the next to get his own series/spin off. I believe it even more now. I hope Supergirl/Agent Carter is a success so we can get some more ladies headlining shows. 

 

I understand why a hero would be motivated by pain and loss, but damn, that's awfully depressing when that's the only motivation we get to see. At least Barry seems to be having fun. We need more fun superheroes in the Arrow universe. 

[dtissagirl]

Berlanti and Kreisberg were developing a Booster Gold show before they started on Arrow, so it's not even out of their realm.

Edited January 20, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Happy Harpy]

(I don't like the wording that "he's there to be the savior".  He should be there so save, not to be the savior.

I saw the title of the article you linked and I felt like throwing something at the wall.

 

Arrow is Oliver's show, damnit!

I adore and love and worship, like die-hard fans do, Felicity and Diggle. But although I like when they have their own storylines (note: this doesn't mean servicing other supporting characters' storylines, 'kay?) they are imo linked to Oliver, he's why they're on the show and why they're crucial for the show in the first place and I love them because of it, too. The counterpart being that imo, Oliver isn't whole without them.

 

So those talks about newbies taking Oliver's place in what is actually the very point of the show, i.e Oliver as a vigilante/hero saving the city, throws me in a rage as deep and pointless as TV-related rages can throw you in.

 

For what I've seen, Ray has the personality of a boiled zuchini plate, meaning none, and a painfully generic back-story. The only things that imo can define him beyond the portray of a Marty Stu (six billions or so on his bank account, an IQ of 600 I guess, a six-pack for abs, lots of good intentions and such a big heart...right?) are his lack of boundaries/stalkerish tendencies, which is not a good thing, since it changes Cliché McBlanderson into Creepy McFoulson in my eyes. And no, I don't think that going for what you want at any price, with complete disrespect for people's feelings and agency, is commendable.

So well, if he were a tertiary character he would be innocuous enough, if vaguely annoying. But imo, he is just not interesting, or three-dimensional enough to deserve the importance he is given (including in the promo). Moreover.

 

I'm still waiting for Oliver to become a "real" hero. And maybe, for once, get a 10 minutes break in his misery.

I'm still waiting for Diggle and HIVE/Andy Diggle storyline. I've been waiting for almost 3 years.

I had to wait for 2 years + to get a Felicity backstory. And for her first storyline more or less independent from Oliver, she's probably going to play second-fiddle to you-know-who.

I'm still waiting for Thea's storyline. One where she would have an agency, you know.

There are characters who have been killed (Sara, Moira, Shado) or are MIA (Walter) whereas they had imo more personality, more potential storylines and were imo true fan favorites (they never needed the PR machine to herald everywhere that we were going to love them...only to mostly be met with chirping crickets).

 

The way Ray is shoe-horned in everything and promoted makes me resent the character instead. For me, he's a plot tumor, because imo he's here as a teaser for a potential spinoff. Therefore, he isn't truly part of the Arrow universe (=the one that revolves around the Queens for me)  and yet, he is given airtime and his own storyline.

 

As for the supporting cast in general, I feel this season is the weakest when it comes to recurring/guests. The only one who impressed me is Mama Smoak. And since I love Helena and I like Waller, I don't feel that I'm unpleasable or the most picky viewer here, for once ;)

[Chaser]

I would understand the process of expanding the universe more if we were on the sixth season and Oliver Queen had become the Green Arrow. 

[statsgirl]

MG and AK said that Berlanti is always telling them "Why save that story for later?  Do it now!" so I guess he's the one to blame.

[jay741982]

MG and AK said that Berlanti is always telling them "Why save that story for later?  Do it now!" so I guess he's the one to blame.

Yet we ain't getting HIVE til next season (DR said this) and more than likely Felicitys dad will be next season or Season 5

[calliope1975]

I will defend Donna Smoak, because I think she's more than a ditzy cocktail waitress (and I'm okay if that's all she is,) but other than that...yeah. 

 

I wonder how Laurel will fit in with Barry and Team Flash as it seems like crossovers are going to continue. I can't see her looking at that group of goofballs with anything but disdain. It's interesting to me that Barry is on the same track as Laurel except he has the bonus of superpowers. He's still a beginner, he still makes mistakes. He lost a loved one (and his father) early on in life. A man was killed during one of his rescue attempts. I guess because I already liked Barry and he is a much more sympathetic character, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief. I'm not with Laurel. And the more they shoehorn her in, the more I nitpick stuff that I wouldn't care about with other characters. 

 

What's worse for me is the writers don't even see what they're doing wrong. They don't see Ray as being creepy. They didn't think that literally fridging Sara would be noticed. They don't seem to understand just how awful Malcolm is and that what he's doing to Thea is beyond the pale. They don't get that viewers wouldn't sympathize with Laurel about lying to her father, but lambaste her instead. It's the blindness that worries me. These aren't problems that I had to dig deep to find. It's basic, fundamental story telling 101. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by calliope1975

[kismet]

I will defend Donna Smoak, because I think she's more than a ditzy cocktail waitress (and I'm okay if that's all she is,) but other than that...yeah. 

 

I wonder how Laurel will fit in with Barry and Team Flash as it seems like crossovers are going to continue. I can't see her looking at that group of goofballs with anything but disdain. It's interesting to me that Barry is on the same track as Laurel except he has the bonus of superpowers. He's still a beginner, he still makes mistakes. He lost a loved one (and his father) early on in life. A man was killed during one of his rescue attempts. I guess because I already liked Barry and he is a much more sympathetic character, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief. I'm not with Laurel. And the more they shoehorn her in, the more I nitpick stuff that I wouldn't care about with other characters. 

 

What's worse for me is the writers don't even see what they're doing wrong. They don't see Ray as being creepy. They didn't think that literally fridging Sara would be noticed. They don't seem to understand just how awful Malcolm is and that what he's doing to Thea is beyond the pale. They don't get that viewers wouldn't sympathize with Laurel about lying to her father, but lambaste her instead. It's the blindness that worries me. These are problems that I had to dig deep to find. It's basic, fundamental story telling 101. 

Never meant to insult Mama Smoak. I did really enjoy her, and am looking fwd to her return. I am also keeping my fingers crossed that she lives beyond her next appearance. I loved the way the actress played her and she did have soem memorable moments. But they did have so many cliches like her outfit and her not being able to text. I don't feel writers fleshed out her character as much as the actress did. If they had not cast Charlotte Ross, I think that show would have not had been as successful. It was her & EBR that sold I pretty underwritten character.

[calliope1975]

Never meant to insult Mama Smoak. I did really enjoy her, and am looking fwd to her return. I am also keeping my fingers crossed that she lives beyond her next appearance. I loved the way the actress played her and she did have soem memorable moments. But they did have so many cliches like her outfit and her not being able to text. I don't feel writers fleshed out her character as much as the actress did. If they had not cast Charlotte Ross, I think that show would have not had been as successful. It was her & EBR that sold I pretty underwritten character.

 

Oh, I agree with you. I think I like Mama Smoak so much is because of Charlotte Ross and what she brought. I'm just okay with her being ditzy. Some women are ditzy cocktail waitresses. Some are genius tech blondes. I'd be more inclined to give Laurel a chance if they let her be a rude, selfish character instead of telling me she wants to save the world while showing her behaving with traits counter to that. 

 

That said, the writing for the women has been abysmal this year. What's being done to Thea is gross and no one seems to have addressed that. Has anyone even floated the idea that she should be told the truth? Maybe once everyone comes out she can form a support group with Quentin. 

[statsgirl]

Felicity is kind of ditzy too, especially in the early episodes with her rambling. And Donna, once  you got beyond the ditziness, showed a core of emotional intelligence about how people function.  I imagine it's helped her to survive as a single mother in Las Vegas.

 

From the Examiner review of 3x11:

 

Before almost anything else, however, Quentin Lance needs to find out that Sara is dead, and he needs to be upset with Laurel (and Dinah) for not telling him sooner. He needs to be allowed to react realistically. Whether that means isolating himself from all of the people who lied to him or declaring himself done with the drama of Starling City and relocating to Las Vegas to launch a spinoff with Donna Smoak, Quentin needs to know.

[tv echo]

This is unintentionally funny because the voiceover sounds like a programmed robot or someone reading off a PR script (not really spoilery)...

 

'Arrow' Is Ray Palmer Starling City's New 'Savior' Brandon Routh Reveals All
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vzFvor07Vw

[statsgirl]

That's kind of hilarious.  It's like someone wrote a script and they got a computer to read it.

 

I felt sorry for Routh.  He knows the complaints about Ray and he's trying to get beyond them.

[quarks]

Nah, I disagree.  Palmer was obviously hitting on her, he was making repeated advances, that's not stalking.  He did not do anything socially unacceptable, except stealing the company info through her phone, which is what Felicity does all the time.

 

 

He's done at least four things I would consider socially unacceptable:

 

1. Stealing QC's company info.  (Not just unacceptable, but unnecessary - the QC board would have welcomed him with open arms after the last few CEOs.  For that matter, the script in that very episode informed us that residents and businesses were fleeing Starling City. A billionaire wants to step in to support a Starling City business? Massive cheers all around. Even Oliver thought Ray Palmer was a plus.)

 

2. Showing up at an employee's home without warning and walking into her apartment. At that point, Felicity had only been working for him for about two weeks; they'd only met one month again.

 

(I'd say showing up at pretty much anyone's home in the morning without warning is bordering on bad manners, at least, unless you are really close friends, family, or it's an emergency.)

 

3. Pinging Felicity's phone to track her down to discuss their kiss after she said she didn't want to discuss it. 

 

4. Hitting on her, strongly, one week after she told him that she'd just lost someone who was more than a friend.

 

I've said this elsewhere, but there are actually reasons for Ray to pinging Felicity's phone or following her around that I would consider, if not exactly socially acceptable, at least reasonable - she's admitted to hacking right in front of him, she's taken off at least twice from work to head to Central City, it wouldn't be that difficult to work out that she has some sort of relationship with the city's vigilante, she had to take off during their dinner to go help take down Cupid, and so on.  Ray's obviously intelligent, and he's working on a top secret project, so it would make sense for him to check out Felicity. I wish the show had gone that route - they're doing something similar with Iris right now over on Flash, and it could have been fun to watch.

[kismet]

That ATOM suit is just ridiculous and not in a good way. I hope when they go to the Flash, Cisco can help streamline that & make it looks a little better. I mean it looks so robotic and not flattering to RP body line at all.

[tv echo]

Nothing spoilery...

 

ARROW: BRANDON ROUTH ON PUTTING ON THE ATOM'S SUIT AND (POSSIBLY) STEPPING IN FOR ARROW
BY ROTH CORNET  4 MAR 2015 
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/03/05/arrow-brandon-routh-on-putting-on-the-atoms-suit-and-possibly-stepping-in-for-arrow?utm_campaign=ign+main+twitter&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

Brandon Routh retweeted
IGN @IGN  ·  8h 8 hours ago
#Arrow: The Atom himself dishes on his 'bada***' suit & (possibly) stepping in for the Arrow: http://go.ign.com/Uw8hZhY

https://twitter.com/brandonjrouth

Edited March 5, 2015 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

 

 

Technically he is, he is a visitor on Arrow and spin off bound. I honestly don't think they should force scenes between characters just because they are in the same show. In real life you don't interact with everyone who lives in your town/city. I don't see much of a point or why it should have happened urgently when he isn't even staying in Arrow. Ray was also the new guy, a billionaire, genius businessman, there wasn't really much he had common with many of the characters in this show. I would have loved to see more interaction with Oliver, but to me its quite refreshing they didnt go that cliche route, of having the guys butting heads over Felicity and the company. I think its quite realistic they stayed away from each other, since they don't like each other very much, especially Oliver he has a lot of good reasons why he wasn't exactly trying to BFF Ray. The man also has a lot on his plate and was "dead".

But now as  fellow vigilantes ATOM and ARROW, among other reasons, it will feel more organic Imo.

If Ray is only on the show to launch a spinoff, like you point out, then I don't see a point of making him a guest star for 18 episodes this season. Why not just give him a limited run of episodes like they did with Barry?

 

Even in Barry's two episodes, they did a better job of introducing him and making me interested in his character. Barry was also the newbie that shakes up the status quo, be a rival for Felicity's affections, make people interested in seeing him on his own spinoff. What did they right with him was that he worked with everyone in a way that made sense and actually mattered to the main storyline. Barry didn't feel like a cheap plot device, just there to be an impossibly perfect standard to compare favorably against Oliver.

 

They could have done the same with Ray. In his scenes with Felicity, he could've unknowingly helped Team Arrow somehow by giving Felicity an idea on how to solve a case. He could've had scenes similar to how Sebastian Blood interacted with Oliver/Arrow last season, where Ray was the one making a difference on the civic front while the Arrow cleans up the criminal element. But they didn't. They wasted all his screentime isolating him and only building him up as a romantic rival. I could skip every Ray scene and it would not affect the rest of the storyline or any of the other characters at all.

 

And now, they're finally bringing him into the fold 16 episodes later? That's too late for me to care. 

[tennisgurl]

The big problem I have with Ray (well, one of the problems) is that Ray just exists in his own weird little show within a show. Its been ages since he actually interacted with anyone other than Felicity, and he never really seems to impact the show. Whats the point of him getting a spin-off, when he`s basically on this own show now. 

 

Instead of a Ray spin-off, can we get a Nyssa spin-off instead. Not only is she a way more interesting character, she is a real, fully integrated character, who has relationships with multiple characters, and would not come off like a plot device. Or just have her show up on Arrow more often. I just need more Katrina Law in my life. 

[tarotx]

Ray isn't just someone Felicity knows. Ray bought QC so there was ways to have him interact with Oliver. But my problem with Ray isn't the lack of interaction, it's that he's already in his own spin off but it's been placed inside Arrow episodes. Almost all his scenes feel different than the rest of the episode. Like I said before, Ray scenes are like watching a Bewitched-esque comedy. It's light and a bit zany and almost feels like a superhero parody show.

[Sunshine]

Ray and Felicity are supposed to be like a rom-com I think.  I also think the delay in him interacting with others is because it was taking forever to make his costume based on some thing MG said.

[wonderwall]

Aside from the obvious, I didn't really know what bothered me so much about Ray until it sort of hit me. Ray is the quintessential mary-sue. Even his faults (being overbearing and crossing boundaries like no other) are considered to be 'quirky'. Ray is essentially perfect. He's smart, rich, athletic (I suppose?), generous, a martyr, supposedly good looking, supposedly charming... His catch phrase is literally "What can't Ray Palmer do?"

 

That bothers me. He's such a flat character with no nuance whatsoever. The only fault I can barely see is that he's a workaholic. Even then, is that even such a fault? IDK. They really messed this one up. Especially with how they saddled him with Felicity and put them in the corner so their scenes have no relevance whatsoever. 

Edited March 9, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

I don't find Brandon Routh at all attractive. Never have.

[dtissagirl]

I don't find Brandon Routh at all attractive. Never have.

 

Same. He has the appeal of wilted lettuce to me. Also the same acting talents of wilted lettuce.

[BunsenBurner]

My brother and I just watched the last 2 episodes. I won't go into details but, he wanted to know how old Routh was. I looked him up on imdb and looked at his work. Apparently he was born in 1979 but acted on One Life To Live in 1968!! Just thought this was funny.

[KirkB]

He was acting 11 years before he was born? Now that's impressive.

[wonderwall]

He was acting 11 years before he was born? Now that's impressive.

 

What can't Ray Palmer Brandon Routh do? 

[statsgirl]

It's the time travel thing.  Routh was born for it.

 Like I said before, Ray scenes are like watching a Bewitched-esque comedy. It's light and a bit zany and almost feels like a superhero parody show.

And just in case anyone was wondering if these EPs can write a Bewitched-esque comedy, the answer is 'no'.

[tennisgurl]

His scenes are basically a completely different show within a show. It`s like a backdoor pilot that will never.freaking.END! 

[CabotCove]

If Ray is only on the show to launch a spinoff, like you point out, then I don't see a point of making him a guest star for 18 episodes this season. Why not just give him a limited run of episodes like they did with Barry?

 

 

They brought Sara back from the dead and as somewhat an unofficial regular in season 2, then for one episode in season 3 just to kill her off. I think that is far much worse, and now whatever that is they are going to do with her. And I think the reason Ray didnt get the Barry treatment is that Atom is a far obscure hero, he needs the exposure far more, and likely because Ray was brought in to have genuine connections in Arrow. To take over QC and be Felicity's love interest. He can be a useful visitor whilst helping to build another world/show, is that a bad thing?. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Conell

[dtissagirl]

They brought Sara back from the dead and as somewhat an unofficial regular in season 2, then for one episode in season 3 just to kill her off. I think that is far much worse, and now whatever that is they are going to do with her. And I think the reason Ray didnt get the Barry treatment is that Atom is a far obscure hero, he needs the exposure far more, and likely because Ray was brought in to have genuine connections in Arrow. To take over QC and be Felicity's love interest. He can be a useful visitor whilst helping to build another world/show, is that a bad thing?.

Barry and Sara felt like visitors on Arrow to me. They interacted with everyone, and made connections with multiple characters. Palmer doesn't feel like a visitor on Arrow to me. He feels like someone who took Felicity away from the Arrow show I was watching, and secluded her in his creepy unfunny sitcom that my DVR accidentally recorded during Arrow.

[statsgirl]

Agreed that Ray needs more attention and treatment, but they did it wrong. 

 

They pulled Felicity out of Team Arrow stories and stuck her in a side plot with Ray Palmer, hurting both characters.  If they wanted the audience to take to Ray, they should have had  him interacting with more characters than just Felicity.   Since he's concerned about justice in Starling City, they should have had him consulting with Captain Quentin Lance and ADA Laurel Lance (if she's working as a lawyer still);  he should have met Thea at Verdant, gone looking for records of Merlyn Consolidated, maybe talked to Oliver about aspects of QC and some of its projects.

 

As it is, with interacting only with Felicity in a romcom, what we know of him is his creepy lack of boundariesand his sudden move from doing everything for Anna to doing it for Felicity, and we're left with a resentment that he's cutting into the Team Arrow we love.

Edited March 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

I never heard of ATOM before they announced him on this show. He needed more time to be built up to launch his spin off, which the fact that they added another hero and are maybe bring a character back from the dead again, showed me he didn't make a big enough impression to even get his own show. 

[CabotCove]

Barry and Sara felt like visitors on Arrow to me. They interacted with everyone, and made connections with multiple characters. Palmer doesn't feel like a visitor on Arrow to me.

 

Everyone? when did Barry interact with Laurel, Roy, Thea (talking about his double debut in Arrow, S2).

 

And not all visitors are the same. I really don't understand why they are these expections for Ray to fit into this nicely tight box. Why does he have to get the "Barry treatment", "Sara treatment" or whoever. Is that what we as fans what? to have the show repeating and rehashing what they have done before..

Edited March 12, 2015 by Conell

[dtissagirl]

Haha, yeah, when I say everyone, read Team Arrow, 'cause that's where the A-plot always is. Laurel, Thea and Roy weren't much part of the A-plot in S2. Barry and Sara were part of the A-plot in S2. That's where you put important guest stars.

Palmer was part of the A-plot for about 10 minutes in 301, and then not at all for the next fourteen episodes. Laurel, Roy, Thea and Malcolm are all part of the A-plot this season. And instead of having Palmer interact with any of them, or Oliver and Diggle, the show took Felicity out of the A-plot and isolated her with him. And robot boy has been stuck in B- or C- plot land for five months now, which is super weird for a character they've meant to spin-off from the get go.

Edited March 12, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Genki]

Everyone? when did Barry interact with Laurel, Roy, Thea (talking about his double debut in Arrow, S2).

 

And not all visitors are the same. I really don't understand why they are these expections for Ray to fit into this nicely tight box. Why does he have to get the "Barry treatment", "Sara treatment" or whoever. Is that what we as fans what? to have the show repeating and rehashing what they have done before..

 

I think the "Barry treatment"  or "Sara Treatment" is about getting the audience to buy into a character and to accept them.

 

Barry did it in 2 episodes. He was helped by the brand recognition of "The Flash" but GG had chemistry with SA, EBR and DR. The fact that people liked Barry  in such a short period of time also made Caitlin and Cisco's scenes more in 2.19, and gave an "in" to the Flash world and made me want to see more, even though I'm really a fair-weather viewer of that show. Also mentions of Barry through-out the rest of the season was cute and earned.

 

Sara had longer to develop and they did in an fantastic way. Sure she took a hit popularity-wise when she hooked up with Oliver, but she has a connection to more than 1 cast member, her presence didn't exclude or isolate people form the Team or "A-Plot" and her death hurt. 

[CabotCove]

Barry did it in 2 episodes. He was helped by the brand recognition of "The Flash" but GG had chemistry with SA, EBR and DR. The fact that people liked Barry  in such a short period of time also made Caitlin and Cisco's scenes more in 2.19, and gave an "in" to the Flash world and made me want to see more, even though I'm really a fair-weather viewer of that show. Also mentions of Barry through-out the rest of the season was cute and earned.

 

Maybe thats exactly why he was better received in some parts of the fandom, he wasn't that much of a threatening romantic rival due to his limited stay plus if you also add Iris in the equation. And I definitely agree on the point about "The Flash" brand, I think that's helped very much in "sheltering" Barry or just giving a boost in popularity. 

 

I think the "Barry treatment"  or "Sara Treatment" is about getting the audience to buy into a character and to accept them.

 

 

But thats a triple challenge when he is a romantic rival to a popular ship as well as a new character, who is an obscure hero. Unlike Barry or Sara, Ray wasn't slated for a very short stay or had a grim reaper lingering around him.  Regardless of these obstacles, I think Brandon/Ray has done what he was needed to do,  help get the CW and Arrowverse  a 3rd series. Seems he doesn't require any big buzz/popularity and he wont have the total burden of carrying the whole show alone. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Conell

[statsgirl]

I'm one of the majority of the Arrow audience who didn't come from the comics so Ray and Barry are equally obscure to me and Iris still means little.  (Personally I prefer Snowbarry to WestAllen even now.)

 

Ray did get them a third series, but only because they threw in a bunch of other superheroes and villains. He didn't get it on his own because he wasn't popular enough.  It feels like a compromise "if you buy this breadmaker, we'll throw in a knife set and chopping blades for free".

 

Maybe if he had been integrated into the A plots like Barry and Sara were, and had a chance to integrated into the show, they wouldn't have needed to throw in the other characters like Sara.

 

I really don't think the relationship with Felicity had that much to do with his lack of popularity. Sara was very popular in spite of sleeping with Oliver for most of her time on the show.  Basically, they presented Ray as a creepy stalker and other than his tragic backstory with Anna,  haven't really developed him beyond a 2 dimensional character.

Edited March 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[quarks]

Palmer was part of the A-plot for about 10 minutes in 301, and then not at all for the next fourteen episodes. Laurel, Roy, Thea and Malcolm are all part of the A-plot this season. And instead of having Palmer interact with any of them, or Oliver and Diggle, the show took Felicity out of the A-plot and isolated her with him.

 

I'm going to disagree with this slightly. It's true for Ray Palmer, but not true for Felicity, which right there is part of the problem, because that means she's aware of major problems faced by the city/her friends, but often leaving these problems to go deal with Ray stuff. For instance, in "Draw Back Your Bow," she started out working with Team Arrow to hunt down Cupid, then headed off to dinner - which got interrupted because she had to return to the main plot (which is also the Felicity/Oliver relationship.)  In "The Climb," she was actively involved in trying to find Sara's killer and in the discussions about what Oliver should do - there's several really strong Team Arrow scenes there - but she also left twice to go talk to Ray.  (In both cases, Oliver was out of the Arrow Cave, making this episode a little less jarring.) In the last episode, which is the one I think most people, including me, are reacting to, she left Team Arrow several times to go talk to Ray, even though Team Arrow was dealing with the major issue of Ra's Al Ghul coming for them - something that in previous seasons absolutely would have been her priority. 

 

Arrow has had team members go do their own thing before, of course - notably Oliver in season one, who often left Diggle/Felicity investigating while he headed off to deal with family problems or hang out with McKenna or (more rarely) Laurel. And they've had team members interacting with people who didn't know Oliver's secret - both Oliver and Diggle in the first season; Ray, Oliver, Diggle and Sara in the second season.  So that on its own isn't an issue. What is an issue is that the show has made a huge point in the past that the team and the mission should come first.  Diggle briefly quit the team in the first season when Oliver put Laurel first; Felicity and Diggle jumped out of a plane, and Felicity fixed up the Arrow Cave, when Oliver put grief first; Sara quit the team when Oliver wanted to put Roy's life first. Felicity's more or less done that this season - like Oliver and Sara in those previous episodes, she's still involved in the A plot. But unlike Oliver and Sara, when she heads off on her own, she's not interacting with someone who continues to interact with other members of the cast - McKenna was partnered up with Quentin, for instance; Moira eventually talked to pretty much everyone; Thea was involved with Moira, Oliver, Roy and to a lesser extent Laurel.  

 

Ray so far has briefly interacted with Oliver, and even more briefly with Quentin and Laurel and the mayor. Otherwise, most of his interactions are with Felicity, which makes him feel isolated, and has led to the perception by some viewers that Felicity is isolated - even though really, that isolation mostly happened in just one episode, and even then, it's a bit arguable. 

 

 

Regardless of these obstacles, I think Brandon/Ray has done what he was needed to do,  help get the CW and Arrowverse  a 3rd series. Seems he doesn't require any big buzz/popularity and he wont have the total burden of carrying the whole show alone.

 

 

I don't think he did.  The soft pilot for the Firestorm character was written October/early November, and filmed late November, after Ray was introduced to Arrow's audience, suggesting that the timing basically went like this:

 

Arrow, over the summer: Great news! We've got Brandon Routh on the show, and guess who he's playing?  THE ATOM!

 

Fanbase: The what?

 

Arrow:  The Atom! Awesome guy! Gets small!

 

Fanbase: ...ok.

 

Arrow: Hmm. Flash, wanna throw in a cameo from our other forthcoming superhero into our most hyped episode of the season?  Just in case. 

 

Flash: But we have a telepathic gorilla!

 

Arrow: We've spent a lot of money on Brandon Routh, guys. HELP US.

 

October:

 

Arrow: Here's Ray! What do you think?

 

Fanbase: YOU KILLED SARA! WHAT THE HELL?

 

Arrow: But....Ray?  Also, Oliver and Felicity kissed.

 

Fanbase: Who the hell cares about that? YOU KILLED SARA! WHAT IS IT WITH YOU AND KILLING OFF CHARACTERS? IF THIS IS GOING TO BE GAME OF THRONES, WE WANT DRAGONS!

 

Flash: Hey, look at OUR ratings!

 

Fanbase: Wait, are you introducing a gorilla?

 

November:

 

Arrow: Here's Ray again!

 

Fanbase: Mama Smoak!

 

Arrow: But Ray!

 

Fanbase:  Mama Smoak!

 

Arrow: Ray's being romantic and supportive and letting Felicity take off with Mama Smoak even though she's taking a surprising amount of personal time at a job she just started! Isn't Ray awesome?

 

Fanbase: Yes, but for once, Oliver's actually being romantic and supportive, so you lost us there. Also, Mama Smoak!

 

Arrow: Damn. Well. Here's Laurel.

 

Flash: Look at our ratings!  

 

Arrow: What episodes are you writing/filming right now, Flash?  

 

Flash: Episodes 13/14.

 

Arrow: Crazy thought here, but how about using those episodes as a soft pilot?

 

Flash: Can we still have our telepathic gorilla?

 

Arrow: You said the magic words.

 

January:

 

Arrow: Here's Ray! All romantic!

 

Fanbase: Laurel still sucks.

 

Arrow: BUT RAY! He's shooting clown targets!  Also, he's telling Felicity - your beloved Felicity - that he really cares about her!

 

Fanbase: Laurel's growing on us!

 

February:

 

Arrow: Here's Ray! He's hot! He's sexy! He wears a towel! He's so wealthy he's willing to put priceless paintings directly into the sunlight, in front of windows that could be shattered at any moment by incoming assassins! ALSO HE FLIES!

 

Fanbase: Why is Oliver trying to save Malcolm?

 

Arrow: RAY HAS A COOL SUIT!

 

Fanbase: Ok, but what we don't get is, why is Oliver trying to save Malcolm? Malcolm just mindwiped Oliver's sister so that she could kill Oliver's ex!

 

Flash: NUCLEAR EXPLOSION! FIERY MEN SPLITTING APART! ALSO, A TELEPATHIC GORILLA! 

 

Fanbase: Go gorilla! Also shirtless Robbie Amell!

 

Arrow: Ok, ok, will you take Ray if we add in Sara and Firestorm?

 

Fanbase:  SARA???? AND VICTOR GARBER????

 

It's not that Ray is a hated character - yeah, he has his detractors, but the main problem is that people aren't really discussing him, except to complain that he's being used to block Felicity/Oliver, which as you noted, isn't really the best route to popularity. 

 

Ray's had several great scenes, I think, and my guess is, had the Felicity/Ray romance been dropped, and more time been spent on having Ray find out about Team Arrow (it's kinda ridiculous that he hasn't figured it out yet, given his obvious intelligence; I hope the show addresses this), helping Team Arrow, and doing cool things with the flying suit, he'd be a lot more popular. And quite possibly, had more people supporting a Felicity/Ray romance.  But the show wanted to establish him as a potential romantic lead, no matter how awkward it was to try to introduce that idea this far into the Felicity/Oliver romance, so here we are.

[MostlyC]

Please STOP repeating your sentiments. If you've said it once, you don't need to say it over and over and over and over again.  

Also, we know that many people don't like Ray. You do not need to repeat yourself again and again and again and again and again.  We don't want to have to add a NO BASHING RAY policy to the forum, but if this continues we might have to.

 

 

[Morrigan2575]

@quarks - funniest damb post I've read all day. Bravo! Edited March 13, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[kismet]

They brought Sara back from the dead and as somewhat an unofficial regular in season 2, then for one episode in season 3 just to kill her off. I think that is far much worse, and now whatever that is they are going to do with her. And I think the reason Ray didnt get the Barry treatment is that Atom is a far obscure hero, he needs the exposure far more, and likely because Ray was brought in to have genuine connections in Arrow. To take over QC and be Felicity's love interest. He can be a useful visitor whilst helping to build another world/show, is that a bad thing?. 

Its not a bad thing, but how they went about introducing him and having him be a part of the show was badly done. You're right Barry didn't interact beyond TA & QL, but he was only on for 2 episodes so it didn't matter if his connections to the other people on the show was non-existent. Sara was already known to the core members of the show, so she was bound to interact with them, so she is whole different type of character and we can't really compare her & RP. RPs arc was too long to just be a visitor. They should have found a better way to welcome him into the overall Arrow world, so that we invested in him & his story that would then translate into building another possible world.

 

RP should have interacted with somebody else from the ARROW TV universe in his 18 episode arc, beyond just that one random meeting with the mayor. I truly believe that if he had been introduced as someone who is actively trying to help the city through all means, not just selfishly building a suit out of grief that then quickly changed to being inspired by protecting Felicity (writers, I blame you) when needed for plot purposes it might have gone over better. I do not read the comics and certainly am not familiar with an obscure one like the ATOM, so I get why they needed to give him more exposure but I do not believe it was well done or planned out in this season. Him having some realistic scenes with QL to understand the actual problems facing the city would have been time well spent for the characters. Beyond getting the girl, I have truly forgotten what his motivation for actually wanting to complete the suit it. He has all but forgotten to even reference Anna, like she never existed which increases my distrust for him as someone who supposedly selflessly wants to be a hero. Perhaps, an honest (without crying or raised voices) conversation between F& R about her concerns before they slept together would have also helped him seem more human. She was constantly crying around him and clearly she had reservations about him & his suit. But he never actually ask her to intelligently explain her concerns. He just ignored them. He said he relies on her counsel, but we have never once heard him ask for it. Like I've said in other threads, they never got the timing right for his character and they were trying to do too much with his story.

 

I think they sacrificed building him up as an actual character, so they could focus on him being LI for Felicity. Which I don’t think was the wisest choice, considering they wanted him to be a spin-off player. If you were just using him as a means to stall a romantic pairing, then mission accomplished. But if you want me to care about this character and any possible spin-off after his relationship with a series regular ends, I have to care about him. And as of right now, all I know is he is really really rich with some obsessive tendencies, boundary issues & social awkwardness. Before the Climb, I believe he wanted to possibly save the city (after he renamed for reasons) & honor his dead fiancé but that all changed when Felicity officially made herself available. A little off putting in a possible hero that he would change motivations so quickly – he literally in one week went from you don’t get to talk about Anna (admirable & appropriate) to Im really doing this for you even though you were just seriously grieving someone like a minute ago (awkward). Perhaps what they should have quickened their actual relationship to get it out of the way sooner & focus on his hero journey in the back part of the season. Or vice versa have him build the suit, have a mini victory helping the city, and then have the romance take flight. Instead they rushed the hero journey, changed or forgot his true motivation mid arc & then threw in a love scene. It just made no logical sense as the basis for any spin-off. I couldn’t tell if he was trying to get a spin-off, get the girl, be a superhero, honor his dead fiancé, stall the main couple or just let the art dept show off their metal work. And in the end, it made me realize I just want him to end his arc, so we can get back to having plots related to the Arrowverse. I can catch up with his origin story on the next show. So all in all, I think his story arc has been badly done through no fault of RP or BR. It was all the writing & production decisions that made his reception what it is in Arrow. They never integrated him into the Arrowverse, he was just there taking up screen time that could have been used to tell his story, which honestly I would have enjoyed more than the cliché plots they threw at him. BR seemed to work with what he got. Problem is you can’t make filet out of minced meat. I just hope they have better stuff in store for him at the spin-off, that integrates him better into the narrative. Like Sara, his story deserved better than what it was given in s3.

Edited March 13, 2015 by kismet

[CabotCove]

Fair enough, you believe what you want to about Ray.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Conell

[AES13]

My problem with Ray is I don't like or dislike him; I haven't seen enough about his character to be able to judge.  He's there to slow down the inevitable Olicity romance but I don't know anything about him apart from his purpose in the story.  They haven't given him enough layers to make him the least bit interesting to me.  

[TrueMyth]

I'm rewatching the show with my husband, and we just hit "Draw Back Your Bow."  Felicity's speech about how awesome Ray is speaks to me about what I'd like to have seen from Ray.  We really haven't seen Ray do much to help the city in actual terms.  He held a benefit and met with the mayor, but what has he actually done besides throw money at the problem?  If Sebastian Blood was still around (and less crazy), would he have seen Ray as an ally?

 

Outside making sure Queen Consolidated didn't fold (saving lots of jobs), what has he done?  The audience doesn't really feel the impact of saving the company because Felicity is the only QC employee we really know.  A scene of Ray meeting with some extras, excited to get back to work would have been nice.  Much was made last season of the Arrow and Blood helping the hospitals, but Ray hasn't done anything to fix the city.  I understand that he doesn't have Oliver's fighting skills and therefore needs his suit to hit the streets, but that's why the suit storyline should have moved along further.  He's supposed to be a genius, so why didn't he weigh-in with some great idea during the Brick crisis?

 

I feel that Oliver, Felicity, Dig, Roy, and even Laurel would do a lot to help the city or innocents, even without a mask, but I don't feel like Ray would.  He just seems too passive, ultimately, not hero material.  In some ways, he's the anti-Laurel.  Laurel gets the itch to fix things, so she puts on a poor disguise and picks a fight with no training; Roy wants to fix things, so he takes almost a year to build up enough armor and weapons to go out and...  And there's the last problem I have with his characterization... what does he ultimately want to do?  Does he see himself rescuing people from rapists and muggers?  Does he want to stop heists?  Stop murders?

 

So when Felicity tells the audience that Ray is a great guy with lofty ideals, I have no ideas what those ideals are and no evidence that he's a great guy, except for the money he wants to throw at things.  That makes him a philanthropist with a tinkering hobby, not a hero. 

[statsgirl]

I like Ray's motivation, that he wants to help and save the city.  (Laurel's the only outlier when it comes to motivation.)  But I agree, he hasn't done enough to warrant being called a hero, mostly he's just come in and put his brand on things without actually doing anything to help.

 

It's a metaphor for the show this season with its love of costumes and masks -- they're both all about getting the shiny new suit that flies and shoots light thingies, without putting in the work to build the hero inside of it.

[Password]

I think Ray being a hero is coming up. They've left it (too) late IMO but that's how we'll have it.

I think Ray with his brains and money could be a day time hero, far better than a night time one. But he has an idea in his head and no one will stop him. These are not exactly healthy characters we're dealing with here.