The Not So Merry...Supporting Cast

[wonderwall]

This is the most wonderful thing I've read about Ray Palmer and why he's just a terrible character and how his character is a disservice to Felicity: X

[kismet]

This is the most wonderful thing I've read about Ray Palmer and why he's just a terrible character and how his character is a disservice to Felicity: X

I think the writer brought up a lot of points others have made on this forum. Its nice to know that we who feel this way about Ray are not alone. Its just a shame because the writers blew the opportunity to write a better love triangle (O/F/theArrow) and better character in Ray. They drove home plot rather than character and then wonder why people are not excited about Ray's role on the spin-off. His big moments on Arrow were never about him and that's on the writers.

[TrueMyth]

The further talk about Ray in the episode thread got me thinking about how little we know about him. Others brought up the fact that Anna doesn't feel like a real person, and I've already touched on how impersonal his apartment really was. Why haven't we had an episode of Ray flashbacks? This would really help us grasp who he is outside of Felicity and his suit.

During the first couple episodes of the season, I feel that they wanted to keep him a mystery. I honestly thought he was rather sinister when he opened that hard drive of weapons systems. Obviously, this is not the case; he really is just "that good." Then, to give us his motivation and help balance his relationship with Felicity, they told us about Anna. It is around about this time that I think a Ray flashback episode would have helped to sell him. Even Cupid, who actually has a similar origin story, got her flashbacks to last year.

Ray makes me roll my eyes whenever he is on screen, but I want to give him a fair shake. I want to know what he was like with Anna. I want to know what his next crazy "smart wearable" idea was. I want to know how he lived, super rich , but maybe down to earth? But I'm not invested in these curiosities. Flashbacks might help. And they have had a few weak flashback episodes this season that could have been throw over to Ray.

[statsgirl]

I'm not opposed to Ray flashbacks, but I'd rather see them on the spin-off instead.  Characters that move from one show to another also often change, depending on the requirements of the new show or how they interact with the new characters. Will Ray take a leadership role on the spin-off as he does on Arrow, or will it be a real ensemble?  Those require different things about the character, different justifications in the flashbacks.

 

Barry only had two episodes before he got his own show.  We already know far more about Ray than we did about Barry.  Arrow is already too crowded to do justice to the story arcs of its own characters.

 

If there is time on Arrow to add in another story arc, I'd like to see one with Quentin Lance and Donna Smoak.  Or even Gerry, Felicity's rarely-seen EA.

[kismet]

Maybe not a full blown episode of flashbacks but something that makes his character more dimensional and interesting. A few flashbacks would have been good. They could have even done Anna's funeral, that way there wouldn't have needed to be a lot more script or casting. Just throw some extras in black crying and a closed casket. Maybe just show him depressed or sad after Anna died and thats when he got the idea of the suit. Something that tells me who this guy is, where he comes from, where he plans on going. Make me invested in him, they've done it for other guest stars. Like Ive said before, I have no idea what their plan was going into the RP arc if their end goal was a spin-off. To me it felt like they showed up to play one game but brought the equipment/plan for a completely different game. His arc on Arrow has been an illogical & impractical way to make him a character worth watching on his own.

[lizonthefritz]

Like others here, I too feel like finally introducing Ray to the A plot is too little, too late. It also made me think of what I would have liked to have seen them do with Ray this season and this is what I came up with:

 

While Felicity and Oliver were getting their flirt on and Diggle and Lyla were getting the nest ready during the summer, Ray was of course mourning Anna, but also figuring out who it was that finally stopped the Mirakuru soldiers, because that's what he wants to do - make sure no one else needs to suffer as he did. (Hey, look at that, his hero mission is clear right off the bat.)

He figures out that it was Oliver and company and basically spends the summer stalking them (hey, he's still Ray, and thus comes naturally by his stalkerish tendencies), learning their habits and trying to figure out the right time to approach them.

 

We learn the above through exposition later on, but as the season starts, he visits Felicity at her job as before, but this time he's actually there to get a feel for her as a part of Team Arrow and to see if she would be a good fit for his vision for QC.

 

Then, preferrably in the premiere, but it could be later on, he gains access to the Arrow Cave and enters when the team is there. He comes down the stairs and is met with nocked arrows and angry faces and says "I know what you're doing here and I want to help." Basically offering to be the money guy, building weapons and gadgets, "oh and hey, I've got this idea for a suit".

 

At that point he'd go away for a while so the team can decide if they should take him up on his offer or not. (In the end, the money wins out.)

 

To my way of thinking, this could have opened up a wealth of opportunity to build up the character and still be the source of 'ship conflict (probably even moreso), as well as having added benefits for other characters:

 

• Felicity wouldn't have to be isolated from the team in order to get a new love interest.
• Oliver would see Ray and Felicity together and realize they have much more in common than he and Felicity do, leading to the "necessary" angst.
• He could start to be trained by Diggle, giving Diggle something to actually do this season.
• Once Laurel came on board they could be sparring partners, which would mean we actually got to see Laurel train. (Why do we never see her training in the foundry? She's always just standing around when we could see her making an effort to learn how to be a better vigilante, even just in the background.)

 

I mean sure, there are still issues with this scenario, starting and ending with MORE RAY, but maybe a more palatable Ray wouldn't have been as hard to swallow? Also, it could have led to actual conflicted feelings about who Felicity is better off with (right now, I don't even consider Ray a real option since it's very clear the entire purpose of Ray/Felicity is to delay Oliver/Felicity).

 

 

It feel like the writers haven't put any sort of thought into Ray. They know where they have to get him by the end of the season (ATOM), and they know the beats they have to hit along the way, but they haven't given any thought to who he IS.

 

I knew next to nothing about Green Arrow going into this show, but by the end of the first episode, I had a pretty good idea of who Oliver was and what his journey was going to be. We're 16 episodes into Ray's journey and I have no clue what it's going to be because I have no idea where he's starting from. Who is he? Does he want to save the world from evil? Make criminals pay? Make his own pain go away? So far, it just seems that he's driven to make the suit because he needs to prove to himsel that he can finish it, not so that he can actually use the suit once it's done. The way the writers have laid it out, the suit isn't the starting point of Ray's journey, it's the ending point.

Edited March 21, 2015 by lizonthefritz

[wonderwall]

I'm really loving this rant about Ray Palmer and how he's negatively affecting Felicity.

 

PROBLEMATIC PALMER. OR, HOW NOT TO WRITE A “HERO”.

http://ah-maa-zing.tumblr.com/post/114698791639/problematic-palmer-or-how-not-to-write-a-hero

 

Excerpt: 

The problem with Ray Palmer is that he is dismissive, petulant and misogynistic. He brushes away Felicity’s words about Oliver being innocent as her “having feelings” for him and “clouded by her attachment” to him. Twice in one episode he belittles her judgement because he thinks that - as a woman, presumably - her emotions make her blind to Oliver’s faults. We know that Felicity has never been blind to Oliver, far from it. Maybe Palmer doesn’t know that, but she’s not the only woman that Palmer does this to. He then goes and says exactly the same thing to Laurel, essentially telling her that her words/standing as a DA count for nothing because she once dated Oliver. I’m not the world’s biggest Laurel fan but even I was raging on her behalf and I honestly have no idea how she managed to stop from sinking the heel of her stilettos into his balls. I cheered when she shut him down. Congratulations, Arrow writers. You managed to make me like Laurel after all; you just had to find someone I could hate a lot more than her.

[Genki]

That was so good!

Edited March 27, 2015 by Genki

[tennisgurl]

That was pretty awesome, it hits a lot about what does NOT work about Ray. Although I would really like to emphasize that, in addition to be a smug, sexist, dickhead, he is also a massive hypocrite. Yeah, Ray, no one should play judge, journey, and executioner...except you and your dime store Iron Man costume. 

[kismet]

That was pretty awesome, it hits a lot about what does NOT work about Ray. Although I would really like to emphasize that, in addition to be a smug, sexist, dickhead, he is also a massive hypocrite. Yeah, Ray, no one should play judge, journey, and executioner...except you and your dime store Iron Man costume. 

Think you meant Jury, not Journey.... But all I could think of is maybe he should just get moving along in his journey, actually capture some bad guys... do some good things and then maybe he can have an opinion. Even if you don't like LL, at least she's collared some bad guys both with both the mask on & off. What has RP done besides build a suit & throw some money at a task force. I hope that task force gets used to track down & capture this strange Red/blue flying TinMan that seems to be jumping off roofs & making fake 911 calls. Isn't it a crime to make fake 911 calls?

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, whoops, definitely meant jury! Damn you spell check, you have failed this post! 

 

But I`m glad it gave you some food for thought! And your totally right. Ray should really not be lecturing or acting like he`s all that, when literally all he has done is stalk people, take over Oliver`s company, fake a 911 call, and electrocute another hero. he`s making Laurel look like Wonder Woman!  

[Actionmage]

wonderwall, thank you for that link!  That was a glorious vent/rant.

 

Isn't it a crime to make fake 911 calls?

 

This happened in my neck of the woods just this January--

 

A Nebraska man was sentenced Thursday to five years in prison by a federal judge in Dallas for making false 911 calls, the U.S. attorney’s office said Friday in a news release. U.S. District Judge Sam Lindsay also ordered 34-year-old Jason Neff of Omaha to pay nearly $80,000 in restitution, acting U.S. Attorney John Parker announced.

 

So, yeah. Ray just admitted to a federal crime, if it was our world. 

 

I just realized what I want Lyla to do: be Quentin's aide/ right hand person!  He may not be up for the idea just now, but I think Lyla talking to him would be an amazing job interview.  Especially if Lyla points out that holding her back from an open job she is qualified and capable of holding, yet is being dismissed due to her husband's actions is possibly actionable.

 

edited for sentence structure.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Actionmage

[statsgirl]

I love it. Lyla working with Quentin would be awesome, and I wouldn't have to fast forward any of their scenes.  They can even talk about baby daughters.

 

I'd love to have seen Laurel charging Ray with making false 911 calls.

[BkWurm1]

It's not that Ray is a hated character - yeah, he has his detractors, but the main problem is that people aren't really discussing him, except to complain that he's being used to block Felicity/Oliver, which as you noted, isn't really the best route to popularity.

 

Wasn't a hated character.  They managed to bring me over to hating him and they managed to make a lot of people talk about him, but I don't think this is what they had in mind. 

 

Can you imagine how much better his character would have been received if instead  of a being in his own show with Felicity so he later can be a block between Oliver and Felicity,  he became a friend to Oliver?  Maybe someone who was still interested in Felicity but backs off when using his superior intellect gets a clue as to why it would be a terrible idea.   Why does everything drama have to be built off a triangle?    

[Pyramid]

So I was thinking about Ray, and it was annoying me that I couldn't quite put my thumb on what it was about him, then it hit me:

You know those films where the dad and son body swap, or like Big with Tom Hanks, basically wee laddie in grown man's body, well right there, that's how Ray behaves. There, I've said it.

[wonderwall]

Another great rant about Ray Palmer: 
 
It’s a shame about Ray
http://fiacresgirl.tumblr.com/post/114762160324/its-a-shame-about-ray

 

Thinking about Ray and M. Guggenheim’s assertion that fans don’t like him just because he interferes with Olicity, I began to realize what was so off-putting to me about him in 3x17: he’s a poor loser.

 

Up until this point in the season, Ray has won at everything. He got Queen Consolidated, he’s making tons of money, he’s put together the ATOM suit (with significant help from Felicity), he’s sleeping with the show’s leading lady. And, under these circumstances, he’s largely capable of being charming and magnanimous (”Call me Ray.”).

But in 3x17, Ray gets his first inkling that he’s not winning at everything. That although he stacked the deck in his favor with QC’s takeover and arranged the chessboard to his satisfaction with Felicity’s employment - perhaps this was less of a win than he thought. Oliver is The Arrow, which means he’s not just some trust fund loser, rich man’s Lindsey Lohan who ran his company into the ground, he’s Starling City’s savior, someone who was too busy taking down mirakuru thugs to have time to be CEO.

As it’s Ray’s goal to become Starling City’s savior, in his own mind he must see himself as the rookie, next to Oliver Queen. For a proud guy like Ray, that can’t be fun.

And here he was successfully wooing Felicity, who despite mentioning a “friend” who is gone, seemed pretty into him. But say the magic word - Arrow - and she’s talking about Oliver in a fonder, more familiar, lower-voiced way, than she’s ever used about or with Ray, and he knows he’s behind in that race too and, frankly, unlikely to catch up.

Faced with these two realizations, that Oliver has somehow, despite all odds, undermined his future successes just by being himself and not even trying to compete against Palmer, Ray throws a tantrum and shows his true colors.

He gets mean. He condescends. He throws his IQ out to Felicity, like 140 is supposed to impress her. “The smartest guy in the room,” Ray? What rooms have you been hanging out in? The laundry room? The boiler room? Because top tier universities are full to overflowing with high IQ people - and many of them don’t feel a need to brag about their brilliance.

I’ve said this before: I could have liked Ray. Even in this McGuffin role. Because I like Brandon Routh. But it kind of looks like underneath all that gloss is a guy who can’t stand to lose. That’s a rocky beginning you’ve set up for your superhero, Marc Guggenheim.

 

[nksarmi]

Ok I've actually made similar (though not the same - I don't have three PhDs after all) comments as Ray did when I thought someone was insulting my intelligence by playing dumb, but otherwise I get the sentiment the writer is feeling.  The thing is that I don't hold Ray's hurt and indignation against him - but that is because I am relatively unsure how much Ray and the whole city really knows about what that Arrow has done for the city.  I mean, if you consider that Slade attacked the city specifically because of Oliver - it hardly counts in his favor that he also saved it (it just kind of balances out).  And Felicity doesn't lead with "Oliver has saved countless lives and risked and lost much in his devotion to the city" or anything like that.  No, she goes with "He hasn't killed anyone in two years."

 

So while I think Ray is emotionally compromised himself when he confronts Oliver/Arrow - the simple truth is that all the murders that Oliver committed in season one would technically be enough to prosecute and send him to jail for the rest of his life.  Ray is likely a total boy scout who has never needed to be in fight in his life and will likely be a hero based on his intelligence and technology - not fighting prowess.  Ergo, Felicity defending Oliver by saying he has killed in two years isn't going to cut it.  He was forced to rethink his position (and his suit design!) and when he calmed down, he decided to trust Felicity (and probably asked her a whole bunch of questions off screen). 

 

I think the real problem with Ray is that in Oliver they have created a hero who killed dozens of bad guys before he stopped, but has never - and will never - be held accountable for what the police would normally call crimes.  Laurel has killed herself, but it was ruled self-defense.  Honestly, they have spent more time addressing the fact that Roy and Thea killed someone and the impact that had on them even though it was done when they were not themselves.  They have both felt guilty and as if they needed justice and even though neither of them is in jail - I don't feel as if their crimes were ignored.  On the other hand, we have Merlyn who is guilty of killing countless people and Oliver keeps defending and rescuing him.  I question Oliver's sanity and morality on that basis alone.

 

So in all reality, Ray is technically correct - Oliver has been a killer and it is not unreasonable to want him brought to justice.  Just because that isn't who he is NOW doesn't erase him crime to someone who is just finding out about these things.  But we - the audience - love Oliver despite his crimes and when Ray takes a position that logically makes sense - we call him a sore loser.  Yet despite all of this, Arrow and ATOM will end up being friends and though I'm sure Ray will never take a life on his own show, he will never try to turn Oliver in "for justice" again.

[statsgirl]

Ray decided to trust Felicity when Oliver told him to.  He also tried to pull the same stunt on Laurel, telling her that her judgement was compromised because she used to date Oliver. When the chips are down, Ray is a true misogynist.

 

I think the reason that we give Oliver a pass for killing in season 1 is because he was so screwed up from the island and Waller and presumably Bratva that he didn't know right from wrong when the show started.  it was during season 1, through Diggle and Felicity, that he started to get in touch with his humanity and by late in the season he wasn't killing if he could help it.

 

Ray doesn't have that excuse.  And where Oliver had his father's list, Ray has decided he's judge and jury all on his own, and not listening to anyone.  Felicity shouldn't have to lead with "Oliver has helped the city" because it's not Ray's job to judge him.

 

Maybe Ray can deal with his issues and get a better perspective on what he's been feeling since Anna died but right now, he needs a therapist a lot more than Oliver does.

[AyChihuahua]

Total nitpick, but they really, really did not do their IQ research.  Genius is at least 160; Sheldon Cooper's is 187.  140 is quite good, but it's not something a person would actually brag about.

[nksarmi]

I would say its everyone in the city's job to just Oliver/Arrow - Ray included.  And yes Felicity should have found a better argument than "he hasn't killed anyone in two years" but so many things on this show that should be said remain unsaid. 

 

I can't get over Oliver's speech about how he's responsible for his parent's death when he wanted to go save Merlyn. I so wanted someone to point out that actually Merlyn sank the boat, causing his dad to die, Oliver to be on the island, meet Slade, and give Slade a reason to come back and kill Moira.  So yea, Merlyn is responsible for Oliver's parents' death if you look at things the way Oliver does.

 

But anyway, I've been reminded that Ray did electrocute Roy whom I never saw get up so I can hold that against him.

 

Regarding IQs - some scores consider 140+ genius, others 145+.  Mensa begins at 140.  Einstein is estimated at 160.  I think erring on the lower side is better than higher. A person with 140 IQ could easily have three PhDs and run his own company.  But I think they should have gone a little higher to justify Ray's quirkiness - extremely high IQs do tend to lead to people who don't fit into the social norm well.  I say this as someone who is on the low end of gifted with friends on the higher end who are loveable but a wee bit odd.

Edited March 28, 2015 by nksarmi

[wonderwall]

Total nitpick, but they really, really did not do their IQ research.  Genius is at least 160; Sheldon Cooper's is 187.  140 is quite good, but it's not something a person would actually brag about.

 

Based on this, Felicity probably has an IQ of 165-175... So really, touting about your IQ to a woman who has a higher IQ and is a certifiable genius is probably not a good idea lmao

Edited March 28, 2015 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

So in all reality, Ray is technically correct - Oliver has been a killer and it is not unreasonable to want him brought to justice.

 

Except Ray was an Arrow fan UNTIL he thought he was back out there killing again.  He wanted to help and support what the Arrow was doing until he thought the Arrow had crossed that line again.  Ray wasn't after Oliver for his old crimes, but his new ones so Felicity saying he hasn't killed any one in two years was relevant but yeah, lol, doesn't sound so good out loud. 

Ray throws a tantrum and shows his true colors.

He gets mean. He condescends

 

Yeah, this is what made my hackles suddenly rise up against a guy I've previously and repeatedly defended.  I really felt like it was a "true colors" moment.  Maybe it wasn't what was intended but boy oh boy it's IMO what came through. 

[CabotCove]

Thinking about Ray and M. Guggenheim’s assertion that fans don’t like him just because he interferes with Olicity, I began to realize what was so off-putting to me about him in 3x17: he’s a poor loser.

 

Well a lot of people who hate Ray are also "coincidentally" Olicity fans, he is not entirely being untrue here, but its quite a generalized statement, some Ray haters  are not shippers, albeit a minority. And there could be other things why a few Olicity fans dont like him for and some who actually like him. Probably the guts-iest thing MG has ever said though. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by Conell

[BkWurm1]

It's not fair to say shippers favoring another pairing automatically will turn against another love interest.  When I'm supporting a specific pairing I judge the new guy (or gal) by who they are, how they treat the love interest and most importantly if they make the character I'm invested in better or worse.  I hated Jimmy Olsen on Smallville because he turned Chloe into a spineless pod person around him.  I loved Davis Bloom aka Doomsday because he was I felt a deeply sympathetic character and while Chloe was put in a position that had her making some terrible choices, she never seemed to become something lesser around him.  What I mean is she was still the same character and she wasn't hiding who she was or pretending to be less (or willing to demand less in order to placate him)

 

I loved how much Ray seemed to love Felicity's intelligence but in 3.17 I suddenly felt that he didn't respect her mind or opinion or judgment.  And in order for that to be ok, Felicity had to not hold him accountable for his poor treatment of her and that hurts her character and I end up placing blame on the only new element that explains why she isn't acting in character and that's the love interest she's propping up.  

 

Ray hasn't IMO been deeply enough drawn for me to identify with the character on his own merits and he screwed up the good will I had for him based on how he'd been treating Felicity (and oddly enough, Laurel - that misogynistic crap does not fly with me at all) but none of that is based on his position in the triangle which as has been pointed out over and over really isn't a Ray/Felicity/Oliver triangle but an Oliver/Felicity/Arrow triangle.  Ray is in the way as a by product of all the other issues, not on his own merits. 

 

Even so, I think it's fair that since the viewers knew he was the inevitable alternative love interest, he had more scrutiny on him, but that only means the show runners should have worked that much harder to avoid giving us blatant reasons not to like the guy. 

[dtissagirl]

The biggest negative reaction to Palmer didn't even come from anybody in fandom. It came from the CW, that noped his spinoff super hard, until Berlanti and co added some eleventy other characters, and retooled it as a superhero team up.

Edited March 28, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

I loved how much Ray seemed to love Felicity's intelligence but in 3.17 I suddenly felt that he didn't respect her mind or opinion or judgment.  And in order for that to be ok, Felicity had to not hold him accountable for his poor treatment of her and that hurts her character and I end up placing blame on the only new element that explains why she isn't acting in character and that's the love interest she's propping up.  

It's an ad hominem argument to say that someone doesn't like Ray because they're an Olicity shipper.  MG needs to start listening to what the actual complaints are.

 

There were time when Ray gave a lot to Felicity that Oliver didn't.  Unfortunately, 3x17 took most of that away.

 

It's ironic that it happened after he started sleeping with her.

 

Regarding IQs - some scores consider 140+ genius, others 145+.  Mensa begins at 140.  Einstein is estimated at 160.  I think erring on the lower side is better than higher. A person with 140 IQ could easily have three PhDs and run his own company.

Different IQ tests produce different results.  One of the ones commonly used in the US will give you a score 20 pts higher than the Weschler Adult Intelligence Scale used on other countries.

 

For the WAIS and its child equivalent the WISC, the average IQ is set at 100 with a standard deviation of 15.  So someone with an IQ of 115 would be smarter than .84% of people, someone who scored 130 would be smarter than 97% (often the cut-off to be in a gifted program); and at 145 smarter than 99.9% of the population.

 

Anything higher than that and you hit the problem that there aren't enough people in that category to test against. IQ tests are devised based on how many people can get the question right.  At the very high end, the number isn't accurate because there are so few people who are that smart.

 

I really hate the "three PhDs" line.  Why would anyone have three PhD unless they're honorary and that doesn't count.  Get one, get called doctor, and get out and actually do something.  I know it's supposed to show how smart Ray is but if he's that smart, he doesn't need the degree to go out and learn new things. That's one of the differences at the PhD level, you're taught to be able to teach yourself.

 

I have heard of only one person who has more than one PhD. Alastair Cunningham was a cancer researcher until he got cancer himself in his forties.  He used yoga and meditation to help  himself recover and then developed a program called The Healing Journey for other people Somewhere along the line he got a PhD in psychology,.

[nksarmi]

statsgirl - I assume all of my experience with IQ tests is the WAIS/WISC because I have always heard the mean IQ was 100 and the standard deviations as you described.

 

When I was in graduate school, I knew several people working on a PhD who had multiple master's degrees.  In my current line of work, I run into people with multiple master's degrees quite frequently and I'm trying to remember if I have worked with anyone with multiple PhDs or not.  I'm drawing a blank at the moment, but given the number of people who I've known who had multiple MA/MS degrees - I don't think it would be that hard to tack on a little more course work, a couple more dissertations, and frame some more paper on your wall.

 

Of course, the more I think about it - the more they probably did mess up with that line.  While someone with a 140 IQ could get three PhDs, they probably would be in their 30s to have done so and the show makes it look like Palmer has been an entrepreneur for years so they might have set him up as being way too old for Felicity lol.  If they want to say he was a child prodigy who graduate high school at 12 or something like that, they should have upped the IQ to around 160.

[CabotCove]

The biggest negative reaction to Palmer didn't even come from anybody in fandom. It came from the CW, that noped his spinoff super hard, until Berlanti and co added some eleventy other characters, and retooled it as a superhero team up.

 

Its not like there was ever an official Atom pilot proposal to begin with, unless Im not aware of it. Proof?.

 

It's not fair to say shippers favoring another pairing automatically will turn against another love interest.

 

It's not fair to say ALL shippers favoring another pairing automatically will turn against another love interest. Some do, in some cases most do Imo.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Conell

[MostlyC]

No one is talking about Deadshot (I refuse to believe he's dead) or Cupid?  I they they are awesome Not So Merry characters.

 

 

edited because there was a glitch between my ideas and my typing.

[wonderwall]

No one is talking about Slade (I refuse to believe he's dead) or Cupid?  I they they are awesome Not So Merry characters.

 

Slade isn't dead though :p Are you talking about Floyd? Because if so, I thought he was fantastic and there isn't much to say tbqh. Although for a second there I totally shipped Floyd and Cupid... I still probably do *sigh*

[kismet]

I do not believe that Floyd is dead. I think he was temporarily removed from the show because of the upcoming SS movie. They didn't show his body, so they have the potential to bring him back at anytime and just say he escaped at the last minute and used this opportunity to get away from Waller. I was very impressed with his character in 317. I never thought I would like the guy, but he won me over. And the flashbacks I thought were very poignant and well done. I appreciated Arrow highlighting pertinent issues. I wish they would do more of that. There are so many other issues that need highlighting and TV shows have the potential to reach people.

 

And I did think him and Cupid made an interesting pairing for a second. Cupid is just so unhinged emotionally, I thought she was funny.

 

Personally, I wish they had just spent more time on that plot rather than SC in this episode. I like having recurring players because they can add to the shows with the history they bring, but not detract from the main players. So Floyd, Slade, Cupid, Watchmaker, Dollmaker bring them on. The only one that hasn't been good this year was the Count in my opinion and that was because I missed the old Count. This new one was all swarmy business. I preferred the slightly unhinged on in S2. Comic book villains can be more colorful than you everyday bad guys. So I like it when Arrow plays up the comic book element of fun every now and then.

[wonderwall]

He'll probably remain 'dead' until after the Suicide Squad movie. Otherwise there's no way he's coming back to Arrow.

 

I still don't understand why there can't be two different Floyd Lawtons. I'm sure people can differentiate the Floyd from the movie and from the TV show smh. What then, if they have a BoP movie with Dinah Laurel Lance, would they write out Laurel in the show? 

 

It makes no sense. 

[Morrigan2575]

Pretty sure Deadshot is dead for now. If the Suicide Squad movie fails Arrow might grt him back. If not, he'll be dead, dead in Arrow.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Does that mean they're planning on killing off Amanda Waller, too? Because she exists in the movie as well. Also, Boomerang.

[dtissagirl]

I wonder if the movie is also the reason why Amanda Waller was stuck in flashback limbo all season. And she only showed up now so Lyla could quit ARGUS, thus cutting Team Arrow's connection to her in present time.

[manbearpig]

I don't get why DC even care if they have two Deadshots, though. I mean, the one in the movie is played by Will Smith! People aren't going to get them confused, and if anything, wouldn't it make some of the movie fans interested in seeing another version of the character? I don't know. They're also planning a Flash movie with Ezra Miller though, so...surely that opens up a few more issues than a recurring character on Arrow would?

[calliope1975]

DC screwed themselves with some characters being able to exist on TV and in the DCCU (The Flash) and some not. It makes no sense that we can have 2 Flashes but not 2 Floyd Lawtons. Either the audience can handle two universes or they can't. Oh DC, every day, you make more boneheaded moves.

 

I really liked Michael Rowe's portrayal, and it was one of the few bright spots of this last episode. He managed to create a really interesting grey character, and until it's proven otherwise, I'm going to assume Deadshot's chillin' in Tahiti trying to figure out how to reconcile with his daughter. 

[Scribbles]

Chiming in to agree that Deadshot is a loss in so many ways.  Deadshot allowed Diggle to have a foil, it gave Diggle room to grow beyond being a new daddy.  Deadshot also made a great counterbalance to the over the top Cupid and he was the voice of the Suicide Squad.  He was one of the better written characters on the show and the potential story lost with him "dying" just seems a waste. 

 

Frankly, the show needs more characters who reappear from time to time and have a tidbit of history to fill in the blanks of a Starling City that feels more and more like hero haven than a functioning (or disfunctioning) city. 

[calliope1975]

Frankly, the show needs more characters who reappear from time to time and have a tidbit of history to fill in the blanks of a Starling City that feels more and more like hero haven than a functioning (or disfunctioning) city. 

 

I've noticed that The Flash seems better at this. How many times has Captain Cold shown up in the first season? Four? Flash has a better rogues gallery, but the one off villains Arrow deals with are completely unmemorable. I cannot tell you what Murmur was doing in SC or what his grand plan was. I still wish OG Vertigo hadn't been killed though I loved that scene. 

 

Of course, then I contradict myself because about the 3rd time CC popped up on The Flash, I was all - really? Him again?

[Angel12d]

Hmm. So apparently I dislike Ray because I ship Olicity? WRONG MG. So very wrong. I was actually fine with Felicity having a different love interest this season. If you were on these boards or tumblr before the season started and the role of 'Daniel' was being cast, most Olicity fans were excited. What we ended up with is insulting.

 

I disliked Ray from the moment he came on the show with his 'Do you validate parking for my helicopter' arrogant bullcrap and he just got progressively worse. And throwing his IQ and PhD's in Felicity's face during an argument and telling both Felicity and Laurel that their womanly emotions and feelings for Oliver are clouding their judgment was the FINAL STRAW. 

 

But I sure do love being lumped into this negative category of shipping while MG is begging for Olicity shippers to spend their money on the comics right now. So we're only delusional shippers who can't see beyond our love for a couple when it suits. Nice. Real nice. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by Angel12d

[kismet]

Agree Deadshot will remain dead until the DC movie is done. But I do think his "death" on Arrow helped to move the plot along in a healthy and well constructed way (which I can't say a lot of their choices have been this decision). His death was a good excuse for Lyla to leave Argus, and if we can't have Deadshot & suicide squad members, I doubt we would be able to keep Waller & Argus. So this opens up more opportunity to bring Lyla on when they want to and not just cuz Argus. I also thought his death was a good way to redeem him from the darkness that had overtaken him. His death is noble, so that was nice way to go out if you're gonna be eliminated from a show. People on the 317 episode thread have asked if the vodka scene was a turning point for OQ. I do not believe that it was. But I do think his death was a good wake-up call for Diggle. There are dangers attached to his chosen path, I'm not saying he shouldn't do it, but he has seemed to not grasp the risks as much as he did in previous seasons. OQ is a little over zealous in his can't be a hero and have the girl stance, but he is right that what they do is dangerous and there are hard decisions that have to be made that can wear on you and dramatically impact those you love. So Deadshot's death was a good reminder that there is a morsel of truth to OQ's argument.

[KenyaJ]

Hmm. So apparently I dislike Ray because I ship Olicity? WRONG MG. So very wrong. I was actually fine with Felicity having a different love interest this season. If you were on these boards or tumblr before the season started and the role of 'Daniel' was being cast, most Olicity fans were excited. What we ended up with is insulting.

 

This! There were so many of us in the Spoiler Spec thread last summer excited about "Daniel," his potential effect on Felicity, Olicity, and Oliver. People were more than willing to give him a chance. The fact that so many of us feel otherwise now is a failure of writing, and possibly casting (I like Brandon Routh, but even with the same writing, I think Ray might have been more likable in other hands.).

 

For MG, or anyone, to say Olicity shippers don't like Ray because he's come between Felicity and Oliver is reductive and ignorant. For one thing, I don't know a single Olicity shipper who has viewed Ray as a credible threat, even before his spinoff was announced. And what of all the non-Olicity shippers who dislike Ray? What's their excuse? And finally, if Olicity shippers are programmed to hate anyone who dares come between our couple, why did so many of us like Sarah? Why would so many of us be cool with a Barry/Felicity pairing. The problem isn't rabid shipping; the problem is Ray and the writers' failure to make him a relatable character worth rooting for. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by KenyaJ

[tv echo]

Warner Bros. told the CW to pull the plug on Arrow's Deadshot as they have plans for him in David Ayer's Suicide Squad film.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/yonny616/news/?a=117366

[NumberCruncher]

That kind of blows a hole in their  "We keep the TV canon detached from the movie canon so we have greater flexibility" argument, doesn't it?  What's the purpose of saying that and drawing the comparison to Marvel if they're just going to turn around and say one character can't exist on TV and in a movie at the same time?

[Angel12d]

Oh hey, have a gif set of the douchiest guy on the show:

 

http://aaronswarner.tumblr.com/post/114852726831

 

Editing to say they should have gone full-on villain with him, especially after seeing his sinister expression there. Would have made more sense than what we ended up with.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Angel12d

[kismet]

So after reading the Charlotte Ross TVline interview, it made me realize how much I wish she had a bigger role on the show. Maybe just more recurring guest role. It would be so cool if they could write her in as club manager or something related to Verdant. It would be nice to have a motherly influence on the show, even if she's a little out there like MS. Plus having her be a romantic foil to QL would be just buckets of fun on an otherwise dreary show.

 

edited - because I missed "i wish" and few spelling errors

Edited March 31, 2015 by kismet

[wonderwall]

You know, Mitovich had a good idea when he said it would be easy to incorporate her as an employee of Verdant. I kinda hope this happens? But I know it won't. Ross would add a level of levity to the show and add depth to Felicity's character and I just need that so much!

[kismet]

Yes, I didn't mean to steal Mitovich's thunder, it was just such a good idea! Well that and depending on how they incorporate Felicity's Dad into s4, she also could be useful in some of that plot execution. So having her closer to SC, is just such a smart move.

[Morrigan2575]

That would be great except the show runners seem allergic to fun/humor and only allow it out for brief minutes before going dark and angsty.

[BkWurm1]

Just imagine the running gag of Quentin making up excuses to drop by the club only for him to be flustered from her in his face flirting.  But he'd keep coming back.  

 

Beyond the lighter tone she would bring (and someone Felicity could occasionally talk to) I miss having that older generation around to offer experience or sympathy.  I also miss having someone NOT in the thick of things. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by BkWurm1