The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Raja]

I never got Hulu, how did The Runaways handle their story's Darkhold encounter?

[swanpride]

As far as I remember badly....

[Spartan Girl]

So getting back to the subject of women in the MCU relating to Thor: Love and Thunder.

Spoiler

*tired sigh* Really!?

At this point, unless they’re a title character/superhero or Peggy Carter, it really feels like they’re SOL in most cases. At best, they’re sent to the background and at worse they’re either fridged or vilified or both.

Jane succumbing to her cancer wouldn’t infuriate me so much if I wasn’t already smarting from Wanda and Sharon. Granted, she got a better deal than those two, but it still feels like a raw deal to bring her back just for that. I mean, yes, that IS what happens in the comics, but the way the movie did it feels so rushed. And it seems such a shame when there was so much potential for her and Valkyrie as a team.

Oh yeah, and thanks for getting our hopes up for Valkyrie searching for a queen only to completely push that to the back burner. Way to pander, Feige.

[BetterButter]

‘Captain America 4’ Finds Its Director in Filmmaker Julius Onah

[ICantDoThatDave]

On 6/25/2022 at 4:41 PM, cambridgeguy said:

Superheroes get recast all the time.  Alternate version, different actor.  Works for Spiderman, works for Batman, and will work for Wolverine. 

But very often... not successfully.  It's a tricky decision, despite it occasionally successfully happening before, as evidenced by the *many* failures of recasting in the past.

[ICantDoThatDave]

On 6/28/2022 at 2:28 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

I was big into comics back then and I am not sure you can really use comic book sales as a guide for who was popular with the general public. If I recall a top selling comic like Uncanny X-Men maybe sold 100,000 copies.

No, that's just recently.  100k is a good selling comic *today*.  Go back in time & that would get you cancelled after 1 issue.  For example, Superman #75 (The Death of Superman) sold roughly 6 million copies.  Spawn #1 sold 1.75 million copies.  Todd McFarlane's Spider-Man #1 comic sold 2.35 million comics.  A random monthly uneventful issue of Uncanny X-Men sold about 400,000 copies.  [all stats thanks to Google :) ]

That was all 30 years ago, though.  Not really comparable to today.

[starri]

A lot of those numbers were during a speculation boom.  People snapped up "The Death of Superman" because they were expecting it to appreciate in value like it was Action Comics #1.  Same with Spider-Man.

[Twilight Man]

Posted as well on Quantumania forum:

When Ant-Man decides to bring Stark tech aboard a cruise ship

to impress dinner guests,

Ultron finds out and sends several droids to attack and retrieve the tech.

(Apparently, Ultron still functions.  Who knew????)

It going to take the combined efforts of

Ant-Man (Paul Rudd), The Wasp (Evangeline Lilly),

Falcon America (Anthony Mackie), Ms. Marvel (Iman Vellani),

and Captain Marvel (Brie Larson) to stop these Ultron droids.

Then, at the end, NOT Paul Rudd and NOT Evangeline Lilly

walk through the dining area and assure everyone that the day has been saved.

[ICantDoThatDave]

30 minutes ago, starri said:

A lot of those numbers were during a speculation boom.  People snapped up "The Death of Superman" because they were expecting it to appreciate in value like it was Action Comics #1.  Same with Spider-Man.

I mean, yes, I posted them as examples of "the top", but I also gave ~400k as the normal, monthly, run-of-the-mill sales of Uncanny X-Men.

EDIT: I was just originally replying to someone who claimed top sales for Uncanny X-Men was 100k "back in the day". Just showing that number was waaaay undercounted.

Edited July 9, 2022 by ICantDoThatDave

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 7/6/2022 at 7:27 PM, Bruinsfan said:

I mean, when Wanda first saw the Darkhold it was prominently displayed in the creepy dungeon lair of a witch with mystical flames licking around its edges, and Agatha flat out told her it was the Book of the Damned. I don't think she was stupid enough to believe everything would be rainbows and stuffed animal tea parties if she read it.

To a point, you could make the same argument for SHIELD being in possession of the Tesseract after Howard Stark discovered it while scouring the bottom of the ocean for Steve and his plane. Because they either lost or misplaced the thing for, what, most of a century after Rogers disappeared, only using it for Phase Two weaponry after Thor and Loki visited earth the first time. Yes, they're both objects with lots of power, and it's never made clear what Agatha was doing with it if she wasn't reading it herself, because otherwise why have it around at all? The only reason Wanda found out that she was in the book is because Agatha told her she was, but how would she have known that without at least doing some skimming of it?

[Perfect Xero]

44 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

To a point, you could make the same argument for SHIELD being in possession of the Tesseract after Howard Stark discovered it while scouring the bottom of the ocean for Steve and his plane. Because they either lost or misplaced the thing for, what, most of a century after Rogers disappeared, only using it for Phase Two weaponry after Thor and Loki visited earth the first time. Yes, they're both objects with lots of power, and it's never made clear what Agatha was doing with it if she wasn't reading it herself, because otherwise why have it around at all? The only reason Wanda found out that she was in the book is because Agatha told her she was, but how would she have known that without at least doing some skimming of it?

They had it under lock at Camp Lehigh and Howard studied it during that time, then they created PEGASUS to study it at some point, leading to the FTL engine and Captain Marvel's powers.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

They had it under lock at Camp Lehigh and Howard studied it during that time, then they created PEGASUS to study it at some point, leading to the FTL engine and Captain Marvel's powers.

I would have to rewatch the movie, but wasn't PEGASUS shelved after Carol's crash and subsequent "death"?  Because she and Fury had to go to a warehouse type place to find the files and the evidence of her being the pilot who was supposedly killed along with Dr. Lawson/Mar-Vell? Even then, that was in the 90s. What did they do with the Tesseract between then and the Destroyer showing up, because Fury specifically says during The Avengers that Phase Two was a project to build weapons that could fight such an invading presence. I have a hard time imagining even a Hydra-compromised SHIELD not knowing they had such a thing in their possession and not taking advantage of it.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I would have to rewatch the movie, but wasn't PEGASUS shelved after Carol's crash and subsequent "death"? 

Yes. Probably because the tesseract was on Mar-Vell’s ship. That would have been the only time it was truly missing. Shield may have assumed it was destroyed in the accident. 

53 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

What did they do with the Tesseract between then and the Destroyer showing up, because Fury specifically says during The Avengers that Phase Two was a project to build weapons that could fight such an invading presence.

For at least part of that 17 years it was inside Goose. Carol told Fury to keep the tesseract hidden which is probably what he did until Thor and Loki came to Earth. The end of Captain Marvel has Coulson telling Fury they haven’t found the tesseract so Shield thought it was missing at that point. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Sheesh. You'd think I'd remember that the cat ate the thing.

[tv echo]

Comic-Con 2022 Panel Schedule For Film & TV: Saturday Serves Up ‘Black Adam’, ‘Shazam! Fury Of The Gods’, ‘House Of The Dragon’, MCU & More
By Anthony D'Alessandro, Patrick Hipes   July 9, 2022
https://deadline.com/2022/07/comic-con-2022-scheduled-film-tv-panels-1235059088/ 

Quote

THURSDAY, JULY 21
...
11 a.m. – 8th Musical Anatomy of a Superhero: Film & TV Composer panel
Panelists: Composers Ludwig Göransson (Black Panther: Wakanda Forever), Natalie Holt (Batgirl, Loki), Nami Melumad (Thor: Love and Thunder), Christophe Beck (Shazam! Fury of the Gods, Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania) ,Amie Doherty (She-Hulk: Attorney at Law), and moderator Michael Giacchino (The Batman, Thor: Love and Thunder, Spiderman: No Way Home)
*  *  *
FRIDAY, JULY 22
...
11:45 a.m. — Marvel Studios Animation
Panelists: Marvel Studios head of streaming, television and animation Brad Winderbaum; head of visual development Ryan Meinerding; and special guests dive into all things animation with exclusive looks at X-Men 97, Marvel Zombies, What If…? season 2, and more. Ballroom 20.
*  *  *
SATURDAY, JULY 23
...
5:00 p.m. Marvel Cinematic Universe mega-panel.
Panelist: Marvel President Kevin Feige unveils what’s next in MCU series and films. Hall H

Edited July 11, 2022 by tv echo

[tv echo]

MCU Producer Confirms Phase 4's Central Theme
By Lauren Rouse   July 10, 2022
https://thedirect.com/article/mcu-phase-4-theme 

Quote

Speaking to Chris Hewitt on Empire's Spoiler Special podcast, Richie Palmer, a production & development head on all of Marvel Studios' Phase 4 projects, addressed what unifies Marvel's latest chapter.

When asked whether Phase 4's main theme is about "guilt and consequences," Palmer confirmed that to be the case, saying that Phase 4 is "all a reaction" by the characters to the events of Avengers: Endgame:

Richie Palmer: "100%. Cause Phase 4 is all a reaction - and I don't mean on our part as filmmakers, I mean the characters - it's a reaction to the trauma of Avengers: Infinity War and Endgame. We're still feeling those effects in these movies years later."
*  *  *
"It's also something we spoke to Elizabeth Olsen about every step of the way, that for her, Wanda's full journey is leading to a moment of accountability. And we think she's gotten there."
*  *  *
"I also saw a meme the other day, it was comparing her to Peter Parker. 'What happens when you lose everything?' You know, some people handle it differently than others. Peter Parker dove into the persona of Spider-Man at the end of No Way Home, he's completely let the Spider-Man persona take over as a response to his loss and his trauma. For Peter, of course, being Spider-Man means going and being the biggest hero of all time."
*  *  *
"Wanda's version was leaning solely into being the Scarlet Witch, which what we found out from Agatha and the Darkhold, through Wanda's self-discovery, that that's the opposite: [she becomes] the worst villain of all time, the destroyer of worlds. She's aware now, 'Oh, I'm supposed to be this god. I've always known this kinda, under the surface, but it's now been told to me. Now, my way of dealing with my loss and trauma is just going full-in to what I am, which is the Scarlet Witch, so I'm going to be that.' Of course, in our movie, she's like, 'I don't want to be that, I want to go be with my kids. So leave me alone, but I'm just letting you know that I am the Scarlet Witch, so don't mess with me.' "
*  *  *
"But it's interesting, whether it's Spider-Man or the Scarlet Witch or Black Widow after Civil War, this phase does feel like it's about our heroes coming into their own, on their own, all figuring out their places in the world, and a lot of them are lonely now because of the losses suffered during those Avengers movies."

Marvel Producer Explains Inconsistency of MCU Multiverse Actors
By Richard Nebens   July 10, 2022
https://thedirect.com/article/marvel-mcu-multiverse-different-actors 

Quote

Speaking to Chris Hewitt on Empire's Spoiler Special podcast, Marvel producer Richie Palmer examined the inconsistencies between different Variants of characters within the MCU.
*  *  *
Chris Hewitt: "A lot of people have been saying this, that you have three different Peter Parkers in No Way Home, and they all look different. And then you have every Doctor Strange, every Wanda we see [in Doctor Strange In the Multiverse of Madness], looks like the actor who plays them in the MCU. Was there discussion at any point about addressing that by maybe having a Strange who looked different from Benedict?"

Palmer admitted that those discussions went a few ways, noting how there are Lokis that look different in the Loki Disney+ show along with the three Spider-Men. For Loki, Palmer explained that he looks different from his Variants due to being such a chaotic being, meaning it makes sense to have unique appearances for all the different versions of the God of Mischief:

"Yes and no. Not in any real way. You know, I think that's just the difference between... Cause Loki as well, there's different actors... The Lokis are different, the Spider-Men are different. We have story reasons that Michael [Waldron] and I can talk about for an hour about why it makes sense for characters like Loki, who is inherently a chaotic being. That was always Michael's thing, Loki is pure chaos, so it makes sense to him, in the grand calculus of the Multiverse, on the Multiversal spectrum, he would be one that looks like different people."
*  *  *
He also shared his thoughts on why the three versions of Spider-Man look different from each other, tying it back to the Spider-Verse comics from the turn of the century:

"If you go to the Spider-Verse comics, or even, what was it in the early 2000s... There was the start of the idea of just these other Spider-figures out in our universe or the Multiverse, and it wasn't always Peters, it wasn't always people who looked like Peters. I don't know, I looked at the comic and I actually think it makes sense to me, as a comics fan, why the Peters might look different."

For Doctor Strange 2, Palmer and the team wanted to make sure that leading actors Benedict Cumberbatch and Elizabeth Olsen got the opportunity to shine with each new take on their roles, rather than having other people play Doctor Strange and the Scarlet Witch. As for other characters getting that treatment, the producer admitted that it will be looked at on a case-by-case basis:

"I think the truth is, we had a two-hour movie to tell the story, and we have Benedict Cumberbatch and Elizabeth Olsen, who are literally two of the great actors of our time, let alone superhero movies, and we weren't going to squander them. I will say, if we went to any more of those universes like Paint Universe, I think as you get further and further away from... should we say the Sacred Timeline? As we get further and further away from 616, our base universe of the MCU, I think there's room for even the most stalwart characters, like a Steve Rogers, to maybe not look like Chris Evans. I think there is room as you move further away from the main timeline, from the main universe. But, I think it depends on the character, it depends on the actor, it depends on, frankly, the medium we're telling the story. So, all of the above, but I like that question."

Kevin Feige and ‘Black Widow’ Team on Straddling Marvel’s Past and Future
BY AARON COUCH   JULY 7, 2021
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/black-widow-movie-kevin-feige-scarlett-johansson-1234978262/ 

Quote

In the past, Marvel made headlines for expansive deals that saw Samuel L. Jackson sign on for nine pictures in 2009, or Chris Evans and others ink six-picture pacts. But Feige says those types of deals are not the norm for Marvel these days.

“That got a lot of attention way back when, with I think Scarlett, and [Chris] Hemsworth and Evans and Sam Jackson. It varies now,” Feige told THR when asked if the studio is making sweeping talent deals for a specific number of streaming and movie appearances.

Feige noted that he “would throw theme park attractions” into the list of things the studio makes talent deals for.

“It varies, project to project, cast to cast,” said Feige. “Really, what we want are people that come in, are excited to be in the universe, are excited at the opportunity to do more things, as opposed to being locked into contractual obligations.”

Why Marvel Studios Has Abandoned MCU Mega-Deals With Actors
By Aeron Mer Eclarinal   July 10, 2022
https://thedirect.com/article/marvel-studios-mcu-mega-deals-actors 

Quote

In an exclusive interview with The Direct, Marvel Studios' former production lead attorney Paul Sarker discussed his thoughts on why the studio opted to get rid of the long-term deals with MCU actors and actresses. 
*  *  *
“So I mean, as you know, I've been gone for six years. So that change in direction is not something I really have first-hand insight into. What I would think, just purely speculation is, that it's challenging to have actors commit to the next, potentially, 10 years of their life. Right, like, yeah, you know, that's, that's, and I think, Kevin [Feige], from Kevin's perspective, it's more sellable, to have a shorter-term deal because it's not as huge a commitment like, oh, ‘Do I want to be, you know, Bucky for the next nine years, or whatever, however many years?’ And it's an opportunity of a lifetime. So maybe you're cool with that."
*  *  *
"But the other thing is, I think Kevin, is more along the lines of like, his view is, we want people that want to be here. So we don't want you to feel like this is daunting, Oh, I gotta do this for the next 10 years. If you do 10 years’ worth of movies, we want it to be because you sort of wanted to and after each one, you want to re-up and do more. So I think it's more of a talent-friendly approach to having the shorter-term deals or fewer options, and I don't know for sure how much shorter they are now, because I don't do the deals anymore. But that would be the reason I would think is that it's a little bit easier to sell to town.”

[tv echo]

How Marvel's Kevin Feige Reacted to Joaquin Phoenix Rejecting Doctor Strange
By Aeron Mer Eclarinal   July 11, 2022
https://thedirect.com/article/doctor-strange-joaquin-phoenix-rejection-marvel-kevin-feige 

Quote

In an exclusive interview with The Direct, Marvel Studios' former production lead attorney Paul Sarker discussed the studio's reaction to actors turning down MCU roles. ....
*  *  *
Sarker then made a run down of the different talents who were almost tapped as MCU heroes, such as Emily Blunt as Black Widow and Tom Cruise as Iron Man:

"So Sarah Finn runs casting for all the Marvel stuff and  you can read about it online. Someone like Emily Blunt was supposed to be Black Widow. But yeah, definitely reasons they went with Scarlett Johansson. I think Tom Cruise was supposed to be Iron Man, but he wanted too much money. So they went with Robert Downey Jr. and then hindsight, it looks like that was the right decision. And I think there were a handful of people that were testing for Thor, including Tom Hiddleston. Because they went with Hemsworth, which I think was the right choice, obviously. I mean, he's, he's amazing. I can't even imagine anyone else playing Thor."

Sarker then revealed that the situation with Joaquin Phoenix was "unique" to him since "there was a deal" in place already, but it didn't pan out. The Marvel lawyer shared that this lost deal caused Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige to move away from long-term, multi-picture deals, saying that the studio doesn't want someone "to feel like they're forced" to be in a certain role: 

 "But to be perfectly honest, the Joaquin Phoenix thing was unique to me, because there was a deal and because it was pretty far along. And we were hopeful that it would close, but it didn't. And that happens. And that to bring it back full circle, things like that may be why Kevin is saying we don't want to do these super long-term deals because we want to see what works and if it works, and people want to do more than we'd love to have [them]. We don't want someone to feel like they're forced.”

Edited July 11, 2022 by tv echo

[festivus]

22 hours ago, tv echo said:

But to be perfectly honest, the Joaquin Phoenix thing was unique to me, because there was a deal and because it was pretty far along. And we were hopeful that it would close, but it didn't.

Thank goodness it didn't. I want British people to play all the roles. 😉 But seriously, most big name American actors get on my nerves. Except for Ben Affleck and Matt Damon for some reason.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Ima just put this here, and I would not have cosigned a good portion of it before Multiverse of Madness

https://ew.com/movies/we-need-to-talk-marvels-women-problem/?did=808100-20220714&utm_campaign=ewk-movies_newsletter&utm_source=ew.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=071422&cid=808100&mid=92184693362&lctg=73710302

'The MCU has taken great pains to make its heroes nuanced figures who grapple with the human cost of their adventures; it makes the case that there are many ways to be a hero. Unless, of course, you're a woman. (Florence Pugh, Hailee Steinfeld, Brie Larson, y'all might want to get a clause in your contracts, just saying).'

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Ima just put this here, and I would not have cosigned a good portion of it before Multiverse of Madness

https://ew.com/movies/we-need-to-talk-marvels-women-problem/?did=808100-20220714&utm_campaign=ewk-movies_newsletter&utm_source=ew.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=071422&cid=808100&mid=92184693362&lctg=73710302

'The MCU has taken great pains to make its heroes nuanced figures who grapple with the human cost of their adventures; it makes the case that there are many ways to be a hero. Unless, of course, you're a woman. (Florence Pugh, Hailee Steinfeld, Brie Larson, y'all might want to get a clause in your contracts, just saying).'

Co-sign every word of this, though I wish that they included how they vilified Sharon and Wanda all in the name of making them more “interesting”.

Also it’s really starting to be glaringly obvious that the only MCU couple that is allowed to be happy is Steve and Peggy, despite the fact that he cheated to get it.

[Hiyo]

Quote

Also it’s really starting to be glaringly obvious that the only MCU couple that is allowed to be happy is Steve and Peggy, despite the fact that he cheated to get it.

Good for them.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Good for them.

I could maybe kinda-sorta not mind.....if what Steve did was not exactly the thing Wanda's supposedly a monster for. In the original timeline, Peggy Carter died. Steve attended her funeral and was a pallbearer. So either the casket he was carrying had someone else in it or the woman he was dancing with was someone else. I know time travel makes it confusing, and it doesn't help that five minutes after Prime Peggy's death Steve was sucking face with Sharon, but literally the only line between Westview and Steve deciding to play Ward Cleaver with a dead woman is that he didn't engulf an entire town out of grief and being alone to deal with it. What he deserves isn't relevant, because it can be argued that Wanda deserved it just as much. It's just that only one of them is allowed to have it.

[Hiyo]

I see it as two completely different circumstances. But mileage varies, I suppose.

[tv echo]

The latest MCU TV series got some Emmy nominations...

Emmy Noms, Fun Facts: Bill Hader Goes for Four, Powered-Down Supes, Axed Series Dig for Gold and More
By Ryan Schwartz and Matt Webb Mitovich / July 12 2022
https://tvline.com/lists/emmy-nominations-facts-figures-2022-cancelled-series-nominees/snl-record-lifetime-nods/ 

Quote

Whereas in 2021, WandaVision, Falcon and Winter Soldier, The Boys, Umbrella Academy, Doom Patrol and The Nevers combined for nearly 40 total Emmy nominations, this year the live-action combo of Loki, Hawkeye, Moon Knight and Peacemaker — with The Boys and Umbrella Academy MIA from the eligible mix — only amassed 17 nods. (Add in Disney+’s animated What If…? anthology, and the tally hits 20.)

And out of the eligible live-action superhero shows, zero on-camera acting performances were nominated, whereas last year Elizabeth Olsen, Paul Bettany and Don Cheadle were among the contenders. (We say “on-camera” since F. Murray Abraham earned a nod for voicing Moon Knight‘s Khonshu.)

Also, MCU actors Zendaya, Andrew Garfield, Oscar Isaac, Michael Keaton and Sebastian Stan got Emmy nominations for their work in other projects...

Emmy Nominations 2022: Succession, Ted Lasso, White Lotus, Hacks, OMITB and Euphoria Lead Pack
By Matt Webb Mitovich and Ryan Schwartz / July 12 202
https://tvline.com/lists/emmy-nominations-2022-list-awards/best-variety-series/ 

Quote

LEAD ACTRESS IN A DRAMA
Jodie Comer, Killing Eve
Laura Linney, Ozark
Melanie Lynskey, Yellowjackets
Sandra Oh, Killing Eve
Reese Witherspoon, The Morning Show
Zendaya, Euphoria
*  *  *
LEAD ACTOR IN A LIMITED OR ANTHOLOGY SERIES, OR MOVIE
Colin Firth, The Staircase
Andrew Garfield, Under the Banner of Heaven
Oscar Isaac, Scenes From a Marriage
Michael Keaton, Dopesick
Himesh Patel, Station Eleven
Sebastian Stan, Pam & Tommy

Edited July 15, 2022 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

15 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

could maybe kinda-sorta not mind.....if what Steve did was not exactly the thing Wanda's supposedly a monster for. In the original timeline, Peggy Carter died.

Steve went back in time to the 1940s or 1950s and lived out his life with Peggy. She still died, future/younger him still carried her casket. Past/Older him was either visiting her in the nursing home (partially explains her confusion) or ducked out as soon as it got to the point where the timeliness overlapped.

Even if you argue Steve jumped into an AU...which I guess is possible although not how I read it, he still didn't mass murder across Universes to get his HEA.

I don't see how that's the same as mind raping and entire town (WandaVison) putting a bunch of kids in a coma (WandaVision) or bodyjacking an alternate Wanda, planning to kill an alternate Wanda to steal their kids, or killing a teen to steal her power (MOM).

Edited July 15, 2022 by Morrigan2575

[festivus]

I just can't co-sign on this Wanda's story was done wrong stuff. I will say that Wanda herself was done wrong by other characters though. This girl watched her parents die in front of her, was experimented on and her brother, the only person she had, then died. Then she had to kill her love only to watch Thanos undo her heartbreaking sacrifice. It seems like she had no support system after these events which might have helped with Westview not becoming a thing. Then she got ahold of the Darkhold and it corrupted a woman that was already grieving with seemingly no one that wanted to help her. She has made the right choices before as in when she changed sides and helped in Ultron, when she stopped Agatha and stopped Westview, and when she brought the castle down on herself. I don't think she's dead and she still has a chance to turn around. Maybe this time some of the other characters will give a damn about her.

Tl;dr: To me Wanda's story is a logical progression and told about as well as you can when doing superhero movies. She might not have went to such extremes if she would have had a better support system. I don't have a problem with women being the villain if there's a good reason for it.

Which brings me to Sharon. I don't have a problem so much with her being the Powerbroker as I do with how it was done. FATS should have shown it from the start with some story of how it happened. Not left it for the "surprise" reveal. It made no sense and just didn't work.

Steve: bah. I've already said all I need to say on that subject. Fine, let Steve has his little HEA. But oh no, we will never admit or let anyone refer to his selfishness there. That's my only problem in that we and the other characters are to see Wanda as a villain but Steve is never called out on anything he's done. 

[Spartan Girl]

2 minutes ago, festivus said:

Steve: bah. I've already said all I need to say on that subject. Fine, let Steve has his little HEA. But oh no, we will never admit or let anyone refer to his selfishness there. That's my only problem in that we and the other characters are to see Wanda as a villain but Steve is never called out on anything he's done. 

Thank you.

I am never going to be okay with what Steve did. Ever.

We could argue all day about how much more wrong Wanda’s methods, but she wound up paying consequences big time. Steve hasn’t, and rewriting history when Peggy—unlike Vision—lived a long full life and had a family and didn’t need a do over is still selfish.

And I feel like the writers just threw Sharon under the bus and rewrote her as a villain because that’s what they do with female characters. Either kill then off to advance the male’s plot or vilify them to make the men look better. Nobody seems to want to call Steve out on his bullshit. It’s just like the article @Cobalt Stargazer posted said. The women don’t get good arcs for long. 

At this point I’m terrified what the next Captain Marvel movie will do: make Monica the villain because she’s bitter at Carol? Ugh.

[festivus]

I didn't get to read the article because it said it has Thor spoilers and I haven't seen that yet.

But yeah, Wanda had consequences for what she's done and Steve never will. The problem is that none of the characters are allowed to even mention what he did was selfish. That's my problem. Also, I'll never believe that the character I was watching would do that. They missed the ball on that one. 

7 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

At this point I’m terrified what the next Captain Marvel movie will do: make Monica the villain because she’s bitter at Carol? Ugh.

They better not. Also she's the only person that has shown some understanding for Wanda so if they do bring her back I'd like to see a friendship develop there. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

Steve went back in time to the 1940s or 1950s and lived out his life with Peggy. She still died, future/younger him still carried her casket. Past/Older him was either visiting her in the nursing home (partially explains her confusion) or ducked out as soon as it got to the point where the timeliness overlapped.

Even if you argue Steve jumped into an AU...which I guess is possible although not how I read it, he still didn't mass murder across Universes to get his HEA.

I don't see how that's the same as mind raping and entire town (WandaVison) putting a bunch of kids in a coma (WandaVision) or bodyjacking an alternate Wanda, planning to kill an alternate Wanda to steal their kids, or killing a teen to steal her power (MOM).

[Cobalt Stargazer]

7 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Even if you argue Steve jumped into an AU...which I guess is possible although not how I read it, he still didn't mass murder across Universes to get his HEA.

Except that just leads to the possible paradox of all the stuff that we as moviegoers saw happen. If he went back in time to be with Peggy, did an alternate version of him save Bucky from Hydra, or bring down a SHIELD that was corrupted, or did he even crash land that plane to keep people from being killed? In turn, did Howard Stark not spend however long scouring the bottom of the ocean for him, using time and money and resources that helped him to find the Tesseract, but not the guy he spent all those years admiring, to the point that he drummed it into his own son's head that he would never live up to such golden, shining perfection? The only reason Bucky Barnes escapes from Hydra's control, breaks that programming long enough to drag an unconscious Cap from  the river, is because he remembered Steve and didn't beat him to death. How much of that doesn't happen because Steve's not there? If it's not an alternate universe, he undid all the things I actually saw take place, which includes all the lives he helped save after he was dug out of the ice. If he isn't there, people die, and I guess you could argue that they'd have been collateral damage or whatever, but that's not a very Avenger attitude to take. "We don't trade lives, Vision." Sure you don't.

[Morrigan2575]

2 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except that just leads to the possible paradox of all the stuff that we as moviegoers saw happen. If he went back in time to be with Peggy, did an alternate version of him save Bucky from Hydra, or bring down a SHIELD that was corrupted, or did he even crash land that plane to keep people from being killed?

I think this pretty much covers what happened and why it was a dumb move by the Russo Bros.

[Hiyo]

Quote

How much of that doesn't happen because Steve's not there?

It all happened since Steve goes back in time after Stark is buried. So no paradox, he goes back in time and all of what happened in all the other movies still happened. He just made sure to go back in time to a point where his younger self disappears into the ice, then he reveals himself to Peggy, and life goes on.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

5 hours ago, festivus said:

Steve is never called out on anything he's done. 

The argument can be made that that's the whole plot of Civil War, and I'll be brief because that's an even older argument. Even then, Wanda was blamed for what happened in Lagos, even though it was Steve's distraction that allowed Rumlow to nearly blow him up. Yes, there were casualties that could have been prevented, and yes Wanda miscalculated with trying to get the explosives out of the marketplace, but at least she was on the clock trying to save lives and not standing there with her mouth hanging open, because wow, the bad guy has a contingency plan. Whoda thunk?

What happens later is not entirely even about Bucky, who was a victim with no agency, or Tony, who spent years having in ground into his face by his own father that Steve Rogers was the best, most honest person who ever lived. It was about Steve not being able to live up to his own standards, the ones he used as a measuring stick with everyone else.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, festivus said:

Tl;dr: To me Wanda's story is a logical progression and told about as well as you can when doing superhero movies. She might not have went to such extremes if she would have had a better support system. I don't have a problem with women being the villain if there's a good reason for it.

I agree with you that it was a logical progression that was well told but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t also symptomatic of a larger problem Marvel has with its women. I feel like the women are treated as story pieces and the men are treated as heroes. Storytelling that repeatedly falls back on the same trope with a certain type of character is a problem even if the story is told in the most amazing way every time.

What we saw with each character was one natural progression but there are so many others they could have done. Why can’t one of these women get the overcoming loss and finding something new like Thor did? 

6 hours ago, Hiyo said:

It all happened since Steve goes back in time after Stark is buried. So no paradox, he goes back in time and all of what happened in all the other movies still happened. He just made sure to go back in time to a point where his younger self disappears into the ice, then he reveals himself to Peggy, and life goes on.

It really doesn’t work at all. Even if you are okay with Steve letting everything progress as it does it messes with the entire time travel premise that Endgame is built on. All the other things they did would create multiple paradoxes. The Russos have said that he created a new timeline which is what is consistent with what the movie said overall. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

It really doesn’t work at all.

I think it works.

[Spartan Girl]

It’s always going to be a divisive issue. But I can’t overlook that Steve was the one that acted like he was so concerned about Wanda’s welfare getting the blame in Lagos in Civil War, only to leave her on her own in Avengers Endgame, without giving Vision a funeral or making sure Wanda had the same support system or therapy that he got for Bucky.

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Even if you argue Steve jumped into an AU...which I guess is possible although not how I read it, he still didn't mass murder across Universes to get his HEA.

Because he didn’t have to. He had all the contrivances of Plot Armor, letting him do whatever he wanted, no questions asked. The writers could have done the same for Wanda after Endgame, but they did not. Instead, they contrived her to do what she did in all the worst ways that the same characters that shrugged off what Steve did couldn’t ignore, all culminating to her atoning for everything by sacrificing herself, and even that won’t be enough for some people.

It just doesn’t seem fair.

[Hiyo]

Captain America beating up Iron Man in a fist fight was plot armor.

Cap's ending was just an ending for the character, not plot armor.

[festivus]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

The argument can be made that that's the whole plot of Civil War, and I'll be brief because that's an even older argument. Even then, Wanda was blamed for what happened in Lagos, even though it was Steve's distraction that allowed Rumlow to nearly blow him up. Yes, there were casualties that could have been prevented, and yes Wanda miscalculated with trying to get the explosives out of the marketplace, but at least she was on the clock trying to save lives and not standing there with her mouth hanging open, because wow, the bad guy has a contingency plan. Whoda thunk?

Yep.

1 hour ago, Dani said:

I agree with you that was a logical progression that was well told but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t also symptomatic of a larger problem Marvel has with its women. I feel like the women are treated as story pieces and the men are treated as heroes. Storytelling that repeatedly falls back on the same trope with a certain type of character is a problem even if the story is told in the most amazing way every time.

I do agree with you here. I feel like the things the men do aren't ever called out to the same extent as with the women. Tony let the whole world stay fucked up just so he could keep his daughter instead of snapping everything back to the moment. I'm not saying I wouldn't do the same but my son thinks it's horrible that I would do that. He calls me out. But no, Tony is some kind of hero because he died and nothing is ever said about how he could have prevented anyone but The Avengers ever even remembering they were snapped. 

It feels good to get that out, lol. Felt that way for a long time. There, I've said mean shit about someone who isn't Steve. 

[Spartan Girl]

21 minutes ago, festivus said:

But no, Tony is some kind of hero because he died and nothing is ever said about how he could have prevented anyone but The Avengers ever even remembering they were snapped. 

Seriously. Let’s say that they did that and Tony survived the final battle—he could just get Pepper pregnant again and get to relive the first five years of Morgan’s life all over again. Sounds like a better deal, and would spare all the collateral damage.

[Raja]

We don't trade lives. Some great man said that 

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Seriously. Let’s say that they did that and Tony survived the final battle—he could just get Pepper pregnant again and get to relive the first five years of Morgan’s life all over again. Sounds like a better deal, and would spare all the collateral damage.

No, he would get a different kid unless he magically gets the exact same sperm to fertilize the exact same egg.

And the ethics of reversing the Snap are a lot more complex then saying that hitting the reset button is the way it should be.  All sorts of valuable, important relationships developed in those 5 years - most people didn't spend it in some sort of daze.  There must have been some single people who found their partners, had families, etc. only because of the circumstances of the Snap.  Hey, you were only born because of tragedy, so these people you've never met are going to unilaterally decide that you don't really matter.  Sucks to be you!

[Morrigan2575]

8 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

No, he would get a different kid unless he magically gets the exact same sperm to fertilize the exact same egg.

And the ethics of reversing the Snap are a lot more complex then saying that hitting the reset button is the way it should be.  All sorts of valuable, important relationships developed in those 5 years - most people didn't spend it in some sort of daze.  There must have been some single people who found their partners, had families, etc. only because of the circumstances of the Snap.  Hey, you were only born because of tragedy, so these people you've never met are going to unilaterally decide that you don't really matter.  Sucks to be you!

 What happened to the people that were snapped from a plane? Did they get undusted mid air since the plane was gone?  What about the people who died because a plane/helicopter/car they were in crashed when the pilot/driver was dusted? Oh well, they're SOL?

That's why I think undoing the Snap was the better choice. Although I'm not opposed to Rhodes comment about baby Thanos. 🤔

[Raja]

7 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 What happened to the people that were snapped from a plane? Did they get undusted mid air since the plane was gone?  What about the people who died because a plane/helicopter/car they were in crashed when the pilot/driver was dusted? Oh well, they're SOL?

That's why I think undoing the Snap was the better choice. Although I'm not opposed to Rhodes comment about baby Thanos. 🤔

They tip toed around that saying that Hulk landed them all in a safe place. While we only saw people return to the exact spot,  first the band being run over by basketball players and later on the Disney+ shows 

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

They tip toed around that saying that Hulk landed them all in a safe place. While we only saw people return to the exact spot,  first the band being run over by basketball players and later on the Disney+ shows 

Was that in the movie or somewhere else? I honestly don't remember.  I just remember when I watched End Game I thought they would go back to Infinity War and stop the Snap, when they went the other direction this was my first thought.

[Guest]

One thing that really irritates me is that I have seen conversation after conversation happening about how Wanda needs to be punished for Westview but haven’t seen anyone expressing the same sentiment about Druig. After Eternals he was one of the more popular characters and no one seemed to care that he did the same thing Wanda did on purpose and for 500 years longer. 

5 hours ago, festivus said:

I do agree with you here. I feel like the things the men do aren't ever called out to the same extent as with the women. Tony let the whole world stay fucked up just so he could keep his daughter instead of snapping everything back to the moment. I'm not saying I wouldn't do the same but my son thinks it's horrible that I would do that. He calls me out. But no, Tony is some kind of hero because he died and nothing is ever said about how he could have prevented anyone but The Avengers ever even remembering they were snapped. 

Absolutely. Within the movies and in the real world the men’s actions are framed necessary or reasonable and the women’s are framed as needing to be defended. It’s like the conversation about “where was Carol” when she was in other parts of the universe but Tony decides to be a stay at home dad* and no one blames him for not being involved over that 5 years. 

*I don’t think there is anything wrong with that choice. 

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

And the ethics of reversing the Snap are a lot more complex then saying that hitting the reset button is the way it should be.  All sorts of valuable, important relationships developed in those 5 years - most people didn't spend it in some sort of daze.  There must have been some single people who found their partners, had families, etc. only because of the circumstances of the Snap.  Hey, you were only born because of tragedy, so these people you've never met are going to unilaterally decide that you don't really matter.  Sucks to be you!

Yes but they didn’t even look at the ethics of bringing all those people back 5 years later. The children who came back as orphans, the children orphaned by the snap who have spent 5 years with adopted families, the person who comes back to find their spouse married to someone else, the people who find someone else living in their home, the people whose entire fortune was given to family members, the people whose homes have new owners, the list goes on and on. At the end of Infinity War we see planes and helicopters crashing presumably because pilots were dusted. Even if you assume that the snapped came back in a safe place what about the people who died in the plane crash and their loved ones. Sucks to be you!

There is not a good answer but in my mind they picked the worst possible one. In a different story our heroes would have been the villains. At the end of the day they did it solely because of Tony’s desire. There was no thought given to the repercussions of either decision and the movies only framed it as the right choice. 

58 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Was that in the movie or somewhere else? I honestly don't remember.  I just remember when I watched End Game I thought they would go back to Infinity War and stop the Snap, when they went the other direction this was my first thought.

Fiege said it in an AMA. 

[Morrigan2575]

46 minutes ago, Dani said:

Fiege said it in an AMA. 

Didn't happen in a movie or D+ Show it ain't legit 😆🤣

[Raja]

24 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Didn't happen in a movie or D+ Show it ain't legit 😆🤣

For Disney kiddie consideration. They previously had Thanos kill untold numbers by firing squad but got scared over saying a few more non combatants died as the Avengers brought most back

[Perfect Xero]

On average 140 Million children are born each year on Earth. If we assume that number is cut in half because of the snap that's around 250 Million children born post snap.

That's Earth. The galaxy/universe in the MCU is filled with intelligent life, so the births on Earth are likely a drop in the bucket compared to that total in the universe.

Considering unmaking, very conservatively, the billions of children born in the universe over the previous 5 years should be absolutely staggering to even consider.

They have, reasonably, 3 options, 1 is to do nothing and leave half the universe unalive. Option 2 is to bring half the population back to life. Option 3 is to prevent 50%+ of the population from dying in the first place but in the process effectively making everyone in the universe under the age of 5 no longer alive.

Maybe it's just me, but the morality seems clear.

[swanpride]

Yeah, to me the reversing the snap is less unethical and more not the "everything is great again" fix-it it is portrayed as initially. It is kind of like Rhodey and his legs. Yeah, he is walking again, but that doesn't mean that he is truly fixed. If there is one thing one can complain about, it is snapping all those people back without any warning and preparation. But that is more a matter of plot convenience. 

[Ailianna]

11 hours ago, Dani said:

Fiege said it in an AMA. 

Hulk said it when he brought everyone back that he tried to make them all be safe.