S04.E07: Down the Rabbit Hole

[LoveIsJoy]

21 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

Pronounced Leery! It must be a Gaelic word??

Thank you!!

[HunterHunted]

On 12/17/2018 at 8:11 PM, Hannah Lee said:

On a different topic - I'm really surprised at how poorly outfitted Brianna was for the Scottish Highlands.  No gloves?  And no wool clothes?    When Laorhaire gave her some wool garment to wear, I was like, "wait, what?   Brianna didn't think to wear wool to the Scottish Highlands in late autumn/winter, when she planned to hike for miles across open land?  What was she wearing, cotton? Some fancy 1971 polyester blend?   No wonder she passed out from exposure. "   She saw Claire preparing for her own travel through the stones, so I would have thought she would have spent some time on her own outfit and been better dressed.

Also, I nearly laughed out loud when Brianna blurted out the needless "he never loved you!" to Laoghaire about Jamie.  Which of course caused L to freak out and lock her in the room instead of letting her leave.   Yeah, like mother, like daughter, Bri, you just couldn't pack in silence and leave, you had to shoot off your mouth and get yourself in real hot water.   Never change Beauchamp women, never change.

That's how you know Brianna is Claire's child; she's just so impulsive and only half smart when under pressure. It's only because Claire was much older, been through war, raised a child, and lived in the 18th century that we saw a much more deliberate and thoughtful Claire even if she was still doing principled, but dumb things like treating a slave who attacked a white man in the house. Brianna is just dumb and impulsive.

My issue with Laoghaire is that except for trying to have Claire murdered, which she did by setting her up to be tried for witchcraft, Laoghaire has a bad case of Lydia Wickhams (nee Bennett). Laoghaire is immature, self-absorbed, spiteful, and delusional kind of like Lydia. The biggest difference between the two is that while nearly everyone in Pride & Prejudice acknowledges how much Lydia sucks, very few people in Outlander seem to do the same regarding Laoghaire...and the framing Claire for witchcraft was monstrous. It's actually even more egregious because our first introduction to Laoghaire is her father hauling her into Castle Leoch for being loose with some guy. The show never contends that this was untrue, just that being publicly flogged would ruin her. After that, Claire spends a lot of time treating Collum and members of Mrs. Fitz's family, which includes Laoghaire who is her grand-daughter. She's a desperate man-crazy child.

I think the show omnisciently knows Laoghaire is awful. I think the characters believe she's awful, but they aren't really allowed to voice that sentiment. As it stands, it makes Laoghaire strangely more black & white and less nuanced than she could have been. The show could have benefited by having characters remind her that she's been married 3 times and every time it's been based on something kind of juvenile and not very realistic. She just happens to have lucked out with Jaime.

Edited December 20, 2018 by HunterHunted

[Hannah Lee]

22 hours ago, LoveIsJoy said:

Can someone please educate me on the correct pronunciation of "Laoghaire?"  With the accents, I have never been able to quite catch what she's being called.  Then, when I come to the boards, I see it spelled Laoghaire, but the spelling doesn't match what I'm hearing.  I guess it's like that actress Saoirse Ronan--pretty name--but sounds nothing like Americans would spell it. 

 

Thanks.

Did you see the SNL monologue with Saoirse Ronan?  Cute and funny.

 

 

After spelling out those two names and thinking about it a bit, I feel like I've almost got a handle on it - everything up until the last 2 letters blends into one syllable, and the last two letter add kind of a clip to end end it - Ree for Laoghaire and sh for Saoirse.   It's a bit tricky if you're used to a language where all of the vowels get pronounced.

On 12/18/2018 at 2:01 PM, taanja said:

... but whatever portal is used -- it brings a person back to the past/future but in that exact same spot. So the magical pool on that island would send a person backward/ forward in time? but they would end up still on that island. Right? ...

IIRC the only successful travel we've seen is at Craigh Na Dun.  Claire 1940's > 1740's and back again,  Geillis 1968 > 1740's, Claire back to the 1700's, Brianna 1970's > 1770's, Roger 1970's > 1770's .   Geillis was attempted to jump into the portal pool, but she didna make it, so we don't know where she would have ended up.  

[Netfoot]

Did I say how gorgeous the Moggie looked?  

[zoey1996]

On 12/17/2018 at 9:02 AM, AAEBoiler said:

I just found it laughable that in the middle of the Scottish highlands, with it's wide open vistas and snow-covered mountains that Brianna stops, opens her map, looks around, and thinks, "Yep, that's the way I need to go." I literally laughed out loud at that scene.

I know.  Also, after she sprained her ankle, and she was limping along, surrounded by trees, she didn't find a limb to use as a crutch! 

[Iguessnot]

Has the Brianna character been known as a frontier woman? I was in utter disbelief watching this 1970 brat navigate 1768 with ease. What was the point of watching her diligently wrapping one peanut butter sandwich for a days long hike through Scotland's wilderness. What was the scale of the map she brought? Shouldn't she have brought provisions for a week?

Likewise, Roger, of soft hands, hoisted a barrel on his shoulders, but we weren't shown any difficulties he had being thrown into hard labor on an 18th century vessel. Instead we see him strolling down the hull striking up conversations with young ladies with babes. Sloppy episode to me.

[Tyro49]

On 12/18/2018 at 8:41 PM, Cdh20 said:

Pronounced Leery! It must be a Gaelic word??

I've noticed that all the Gaelic languages, while using the same alphabet as English, seem to apply different sound values to the letters and letter combinations. Very confusing. Could use a list of phonetic spellings.

[Blakeston]

I'm of the opinion that the actress who plays Brianna really was flat-out terrible in her first episodes, but has improved greatly.

I think the accent threw her for a loop in the beginning, and she was so focused on getting the sounds right that her timing and emoting were completely off. But over time, she seems to have gotten the hang of it.

[Plums]

I just started watching this show a couple weeks ago and marathoned through and now am rewatching this one because Frank and Brianna's relationship is such a sweet spot for me and I just have to say-

omg, I just cannot get over how ludicrous Brianna's plan is. Just takes me right out of the episode because it's so nonsensical it feels like a plot hole. So she goes through the stones and decides she's gonna walk and/or hopefully hitch a ride hundreds of miles to a port in the dead of winter? THAT is her plan? Two things. First, Inverness is RIGHT THERE. You can literally see it from the stones! It's a sizable city that probably has a carriages that can take her exactly where she wants to go! Second, she knows her father's family is at Lallybroch, also in the general vicinity. And she doesn't think to go there either? I understand if she doesn't particularly care about meeting Jamie's family or seeing his home, because her priority is to get to Fraser's Ridge ASAP and that's all she's thinking about, and her relationship to Jamie's side of the family is more an abstract concept to her than a reality at this point in time- but surely she would consider they could help her get to her parents, or get in touch with them? It's so insanely fortunate for her that she just happens in run into Uncle Ian by pure chance, who readily believes she's a long lost niece he never knew about and supplies her with all the money and supplies and transportation she'll need to continue on this journey, smh. Would have been nice to see Jamie and Claire get a letter from Jenny and Ian later on demanding an explanation. 

I really wish we had gotten to see Brianna's planning process. Like, she told her roommate she was visiting her mother, left a letter for Roger in case she never made it back, and took the time to put together a passingly appropriate period outfit and pack a map and lunch, and presumably some money for a transatlantic voyage. As far as we know that's literally it. We know she wasn't intending her trip to become a permanent stay, but I'm just really curious about how much time and effort she spent preparing for it, and if it's contradictory to her seeming total lack of forethought or common sense that we actually see her display in this episode. Like, her name is on the house in Boston and all the bank accounts. I'd like to know if she secured the maintenance of her things and finances for an extended period of time of being out of town and unreachable. With Roger, I can headcanon that Fiona is taking care of all his shit and paying the bills while he's gone, since she knows what happened to him and it's easy to imagine him setting that up with her before leaving. But Brianna's roommate seemed utterly clueless that she was literally about to drop off the face of the earth and not just visiting her mother for a few weeks. She's gonna be blindsided when Brianna has basically gone missing. 

One thing that occurred to me this time around with Frank knowing about the obituary that has now become headcanon until proven otherwise- clearly he had found and been keeping track of Jamie for awhile by that point, since he knew where to look. The obit is probably the first time he found evidence of Claire having travelled back, but all the other stuff- the transfer of the deed to Lallybroch to the Murrays with Claire's witness signature, the prison records- he probably found all that stuff on his own too. You know what he also probably found? The passenger manifests from the 18th century. The ones mysteriously missing from the national archives when Claire, Brianna and Roger were looking for evidence of Jamie in episode 3x04. So strange that the 17th century was available, but not the relevant years from the 18th century they needed. You know who signed a passenger manifest this episode? Brianna Randall. Total headcanon that Frank will have seen that at some point and knew Brianna was gonna go through the stones, and he's the reason why those archives were missing.  

Man I wish the time travel stuff was a part of a bigger, overarching myth arc type thing in this show, rather than a random inexplicable fantasy plot device. 

[Cdh20]

17 minutes ago, Plums said:

I just started watching this show a couple weeks ago and marathoned through...

 

Man I wish the time travel stuff was a part of a bigger, overarching myth arc type thing in this show, rather than a random inexplicable fantasy plot device. 

It is always interesting which parts are most interesting to viewers. I have no interest really in the time travel, so I like that it’s kinda downplayed, & really a plot device for keeping people apart.

[Camera One]

I actually liked this episode even though the main characters were missing completely.  This would have been a nice way to set up a spinoff or something if they had wanted to continue after Season 15, and it was no longer convincing for an elderly Jaime and Claire to be Napoleon's general and medic.

I am pleasantly surprised they showed us Brianna and Roger's foray into the 1700s instead of skipping it.  

So in Season 1, Claire survived an attack by English soldiers.  Brianna could hardly survive taking a long hike.  And as mentioned by others above, talk about unprepared in terms of weather or food.  

And I thank the show greatly for not having Brianna locked in the attic for five episodes by the psycho Leery.  Leery was being very kind towards a stranger on the road, though clearly she has no remorse for what she did to Claire, despite Claire being kind to her in Season 2, so I still dislike her greatly.

Both Brianna and Roger are acting like Claire.  Ever heard of lying low and being more discreet with what they reveal?  

I almost thought they re-casted Roger.  He looked totally different without his beard.  So Roger ends up with the worst sea captain this side of the Atlantic. 

I wish Roger was able to use his history knowledge more in this episode, or to express his fascination with what he was seeing.  It should have been really cool to be back in time.

He should have dropped by Lallybroch first to see if Brianna went there.  Plus he was awfully unprepared with no money for passage on a ship, though I suppose he might have just tried to catch the first ship leaving the port.  

[Beeyago]

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

Both Brianna and Roger are acting like Claire.  Ever heard of lying low and being more discreet with what they reveal?  

Such an annoying trait, all of them.

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

I wish Roger was able to use his history knowledge more in this episode, or to express his fascination with what he was seeing.  It should have been really cool to be back in time

Yes! Thought the same thing. The historian, who is unphased by history all around him. Go figure. Would have seemed logical to show this. 

[Anothermi]

This season seems to have allowed itself to slow down enough to give us character development. Bree first and foremost, Fiona, Frank, Leery!?!! and even Marsali's younger sister, Joanie as well. 

Fiona has turned out to be a true friend to Roger. Too bad they didn't show why that changed because she was sure giving off Leery vibes when we first met her. 

AND it is confirmed that the buzzing or humming sounds that Claire, Brianna and Roger could hear—but Jamie and Fiona could not—are related to the ability to time travel. Jamie Can Not Time Travel. This conclusion was extrapolated from this:

Roger: Do you hear that? 

Fiona: The stones dinna call to me.

The Good Frank:

So the show decides NOW—4 seasons in— to show us that Frank could be a good, loving man? Why not when we 1st met him in S01? Hrrumph. 😡

 I really enjoyed seeing Frank giving the love that he possessed to someone who embraced it and returned it. I suppose that—because he never knew what Jamie Fraser looked like—he didn't look at Brianna and see Jamie...just the child he wanted, with Claire, but could not create. He fully accepted the next best thing. And I can understand why he wouldn't divorce Claire as well. Because he needed Brianna in his life and would not jeopardize that. When she was old enough to legally make her own decisions he allowed himself to take the steps needed to give himself the life he wanted. But WAIT!—now that I come to think of it... the first Brianna/ Frank-living-in-his-office scene expands where the news clipping—that propelled Bree to go through the stones—came from. Frank had just received it and had, therefore, learned that Claire would go back to Jamie and die in the past. That had to play a big part in his decision to divorce Claire and go back to England. He'd finally had to let go of his last, futile hope that things would ever be better between Claire and himself. That's what I get from that scene anyway.

And as a parallel, Leery seemed to be a decent human being. She's kind and generous to strange young women. 

She just has that ONE spot of crazy when it comes to Claire and Jamie. Still, even her daughter, Joanie, isn't buying what Leery's selling regarding Joanie's “Da” (Jamie). I think Marsali took a bit more convincing than Joanie but came around pretty damn quick also. Leery manages to remember those few times that were good and forgets why Jamie moved to Edinburgh and lived apart from her mere months after they were married.

Roger's and Brianna's stories seem set to be separate for quite some time. He'll get the hard road (with evil pirate guy) and she'll get the... less hard road. Judging by the time spent on Morag Mackenzie she could become a rival love interest for Roger? Methinks I'll be on the look out for a parallel one for Brianna. And it looks like Brianna's decision to help out another young woman (Elizabeth) has given us a new character. Hope she isn't killed off in the next episode!

Shout out to the Show for being thoughtful enough to give us more Ian. I relished even the tiny glimpse we were given. He is still the best man in what ever room he inhabits! 😊

Two good episodes in a row, show. What's going on?

[Anothermi]

On 12/16/2018 at 9:26 PM, Cdh20 said:

I liked the parallel of the marriages, & Bri & Joanie bonding over stepdads.

Yes! I forgot this bit, but it stood out when I was watching it.  Always love parallels.

On 12/17/2018 at 5:46 PM, Nidratime said:

Well, Jamie sent the only child that he had at the time ahead to the future in the hope that both Claire and the baby would make it safely and that Frank would accept her and the baby. That broke my heart. With this latest scene, we've come full circle. With that little nod on the docks, Frank is giving Brianna back to Jamie, at least in Brianna's mind and heart.

That was definitely a heart tugger. We got to see how important Frank was to Brianna and that "appearance" on the dock as she was setting out for America was her inner confirmation that he approved.  The whole scene was striking because he appeared in his modern day clothes with everyone around him dressed in 18th century garb.  Well Done!

[Scarlett45]

14 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Fiona has turned out to be a true friend to Roger. Too bad they didn't show why that changed because she was sure giving off Leery vibes when we first met her. 

I didn’t get Leery vibes from Fiona. She seemed to just be a young woman who was into a man that wasn’t into her and she was holding out hope. While Roger was just trying to be polite but not encourage her. 
 

She got over it, moved on, found someone else, and married him. Now Roger is just a guy she had a crush on a few years ago. 
 

The entire Leery thing- we didn’t know Leery was as mentally unstable as she was until she framed Claire for witchcraft. Before that she was an immature girl with a crush who was more sexually open than was permitted in the 18th century. 

[gingerella]

20 hours ago, Anothermi said:

This season seems to have allowed itself to slow down enough to give us character development. Bree first and foremost, Fiona, Frank, Leery!?!! and even Marsali's younger sister, Joanie as well. 

Fiona has turned out to be a true friend to Roger. Too bad they didn't show why that changed because she was sure giving off Leery vibes when we first met her. 

AND it is confirmed that the buzzing or humming sounds that Claire, Brianna and Roger could hear—but Jamie and Fiona could not—are related to the ability to time travel. Jamie Can Not Time Travel. This conclusion was extrapolated from this:

Roger: Do you hear that? 

Fiona: The stones dinna call to me.

Yes my friend, we've had a spate of character and plot development lately, which I am grateful for and yet wonder when the other shoe is going to drop! This Show loves violence and rape in particular and we've had a drought of both, save with the awful mother/child tossing, so we're over due and I dread each episode, waiting for the next penny to drop. I agree with you, I too got sort of creepy vibes from Fi when first we met her at the Rev's wake gathering. But as Scarlet as said, she was likely just a girl with a crush on Rog and she got over it and moved on to a nice bloke who'll treat her right AND she got a bitchen house to boot! So Fi did alright for herself in the end. I liked that it was she who drove Roger to the Stones, though I'd have liked to see her reaction to him disappearing through them to be honest, that part was very quick.

WARNING: TIME TRAVEL RANT AHEAD! PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK:

We didn't really see Roger go through and I was confused when we first see him at the docks. I mean, did he get spit out at 1700's Craigh na dun or can people get spit out into another portal? Like, can you go through in Scotland and come out in Jamaica for example? I want to know this, and I know that Show isn't going to satisfy by wanting to know, alas! And yes, I can now stop thinking maaaaybe Jamie and Claire return to another time and don't die in a fire after all because as Fi said, the Stones dinna call her, nor Jamie, nor most folks in fact. So WHY are they calling to Claire, Brianna, Roger, and Geillis? The connection of all of them is MacKenzie (Roger's parentage, Brianna's parentage via Jamie's mother, Claire's marriage via Jamie's mother, and Geillis's child via Dougal MacKenzie). MacKenzie blood or connection seems to be the only thing these four time travelers have in common. And yet, Claire found remnants of another time traveler in the woods in NC. How did that bloke get there? And when? How much father in the past had he arrived in the mountains of NC? I WANT ANSWERS GODDAMIT!

Things That Puzzled Me No End:

* Did Roger walk all the way from Craigh na Dun to the docks in that port town? How did he get there, I'd like to know.

* So Roger gets a job aboard the Gloriana, a ship headed for Wilmington, NC, which seems to be the HQ for the Fraser Family right now. When last we saw them, Fergus and Marsali were there awaiting the birth of their child. The captain is Stephen Bonnet, monster extraordinaire. At first I assumed that Roger had time traveled back BEFORE Bonnet had met Jamie and Claire in NC and had robbed and killed their party en route to River Run. but, But, BUT, B.U.T.!!! I just remembered that Leery mentions her eldest daughter is married and has a grandchild in NC, so I am totally confuddled right now! Clearly Brianna has arrived in the 1770's AFTER Marsali's baby was born BUT has Roger arrived a few years earlier perhaps, and that's why he's fallen in with Bonnet BEFORE Bonnet meet Jamie and Claire in Wilmington just before he's about to be hanged? I don't want the answers if you have them, obviously, but has anyone else grappled with this particular conundrum before? I'm thinking maaaaybe Roger does arrive before Brianna, but perhaps they don't meet up right away? Though anyone asking for Frasers in Wilmington will no doubt find Fergus immediately and thus find Jamie and Claire pretty quickly...unless Roger doesn't make it to Wilmington? I'm so confused by this issue.

* With all the preparation that Brianna saw her mother go through to prepare for her journey back to Jamie, all Brianna could muster up with a prairie girl outfit?! It was early Winter when she went though the Stones, she dinna ken to take a hat, a scarf, maybe some gloves, and better undergarments to walk with?!? At least she had some matches, I'll give her that! She needed to make her own Bat Suit FFS! She makes Claire look like a Mensa Member.

* I know that some here watched the scene where modern Frank gives 1770's Brianna the nod/okay to go to America and look for Claire and Jamie, but I didn't read it that way. I was more perplexed because I don't think Frank would do that ever, he hated Jamie with a vengeance that never died. He blamed Jamie for fucking up his marriage with Claire. I don't think he even ever expressed appreciation that Jamie gave him the ability to be a father because he hated so vehemently that he could never break though Jamie's 'love shield' and get his Claire back. Frank never gave us the impression that he would ever accept another man to be his beloved daughter's father. Hell, he was down with spiriting her away from her own mother! So thinking Frank was giving her permission to go to her 'real' father? I don't buy it, it's out of character for everything we know about Frank. I can only assume it was Brianna's own mind wanting Frank to give her permission, and her trying to tell Frank that he'd always be her Daddy. It was her giving herself permission, not Frank giving her permission...IMO, YMMV!

Things I Didn't Care For At All:

* All things Bonnet. He is a monster, a different monster than BJR though. Randall enjoyed hurting people and torturing them. Bonnet is just ruthless. Kill them and take what you want and move on sort of monster. I felt like this with GOTs too, once one monster gets offed, then the replacement monster is bad in a different way but still a monster. And I just don't feel that we constantly need this sort of character to make a good or compelling story.

* Leery's reappearance, obviously! At first I thought Brianna was headed for Lallybroch, which would have been too coinky dink for me. Then I was worried it would be the home of another rapist creep, but when it was Leery's home I lurched! Noooooooooo, was what I wrote in my episode notes. Leery is like a cockroach, she'll survive forever no matter how much we Viewers want her to die already. It was weird how normal she was with Brianna, but as soon as she realized that Jamie and Claire were Bri's parents you could see the crazy start roiling under the surface of her skin. How long would she keep it together? Turns out not long at all BUT, Brianna could have gotten out of there cleanly IF she hadn't pulled a Claire and spit back insults to Leery. She knew Leery was responsible for trying to get Claire killed by saying she was a witch - a story Leery clearly still tells herself ("it's not my husband's fault, he was bewitched...") so why would she poke that crazy bear? It's the Claire in her, she was right when she told her Mama "I'm more like you then either of my fathers." Indeed Brianna, indeed you are, you never know when to STFU. Locking Brianna in the room was just psycho behavior once again. Leery isn't just an emotionally stunted girl who lives in a 14 year old 'crush world' reality, she has and will always be bat shit crazy. She is dangerous when this particular trigger is tripped.

* I was torn when Frank reappeared this episode. It's been such a long time that we've seen Frank and I really didn't warm up to him anymore seeing him with Brianna. Particularly, he reconfirmed his assholishness when he tried to convince Brianna that she should move to England with him, and leave Claire behind in Boston. That showed how deceptive he was, which I already knew but seeing it from this perspective did Frank no favors in my eyes. And that despite me now understanding that what drove Frank to ask for a divorce when he did was that he learned that at some point Claire would indeed go back in time and not only find Jamie again, but live as his wife and die with him. I just can't feel for him despite what that must have been like to learn this. It reinforced that Claire wasn't lying about time traveling, and that she loved Jamie in a way she never would or could love Frank. You'd think that would make me feel some sort of empathy for Frank but seeing him try to coerce Brianna to leave her mother and come with him was just dirty dog level shit. Fuck you Frank.

Things I Quite Liked:

* Joanie is a lovely girl and I really enjoy her character so much. She always seems to synthesize adult drama into a concise viewpoint. And I loved that she rescued Brianna and thought to take her to Lallybroch for protection from her crazy Ma. I am even more impressed that she knows how to set up a horse and carriage and drive it no less! I  hope Leery doesn't go off on her when she gets home though. Girl be cray cray... I also liked how she greeted her Uncle Ian and everyone on the Murray-Fraser clan family obviously loves her regardless of her crazy Mama.

* Count me in on the love-fest of seeing Ian Murray, Sr. again! He is always the brightest light in the room and always has the best lines! I wish he'd gone in and bought Brianna's tickets though, I was sweating it out when Brianna did that alone because it felt like she would be less vulnerable on board if people say Ian buying her passage for her, you know what I mean? And Elizabeth...I guess she's a new character? I have no affection for her at all at this point as nothing's really happened with her, but if I like her, I'm sure she'll soon be killed off. So let's hope she is unpleasant for the next while, that should ensure she lives to see another episode/season! That's right Show, I know your ways now...

* We had an entire episode without any Claire or Jamie and it was awesome!!!

 

[SassAndSnacks]

Confession - This is my least favorite episode of the entire Outlander canon.  I never rewatch this one.

Disclaimer - My comments here are completely objective and most likely of the "unpopular opinion" type.   

On 8/27/2021 at 6:38 PM, Anothermi said:

Roger: Do you hear that? 

Fiona: The stones dinna call to me.

Love that you caught on to this and that you framed it in the way you did. 

On 8/27/2021 at 6:38 PM, Anothermi said:

So the show decides NOW—4 seasons in— to show us that Frank could be a good, loving man?

I maintain that he isn't.  

22 hours ago, gingerella said:

Particularly, he reconfirmed his assholishness when he tried to convince Brianna that she should move to England with him, and leave Claire behind in Boston. That showed how deceptive he was, which I already knew but seeing it from this perspective did Frank no favors in my eyes.

  Yes, girl, yes.  I refuse to participate in the Frank redemption arc.  I just won't do it.  

22 hours ago, gingerella said:

You'd think that would make me feel some sort of empathy for Frank but seeing him try to coerce Brianna to leave her mother and come with him was just dirty dog level shit. Fuck you Frank.

Reading these words is like listening to my favorite song on the radio, whilst in the car, breezing down the interstate with the windows down.  Bliss.  

22 hours ago, gingerella said:

I know that some here watched the scene where modern Frank gives 1770's Brianna the nod/okay to go to America and look for Claire and Jamie, but I didn't read it that way. I was more perplexed because I don't think Frank would do that ever, he hated Jamie with a vengeance that never died. He blamed Jamie for fucking up his marriage with Claire. I don't think he even ever expressed appreciation that Jamie gave him the ability to be a father because he hated so vehemently that he could never break though Jamie's 'love shield' and get his Claire back. Frank never gave us the impression that he would ever accept another man to be his beloved daughter's father. Hell, he was down with spiriting her away from her own mother!

All of this.  Brianna was absolving herself for looking for Jamie.  

 

Random Things I Hate About This Episode:

- Brianna

- Frank

- Brianna and Frank's relationship

- Brianna, a former history major and daughter of a history professor, traveling back in time so woefully underdressed and under-equipped.

- Roger, a history professor, traveling back in time so woefully underdressed and under-equipped.  WTF is up with the shpants, Rog?

- Stephen Bonnet

- Diseased ships and being captive at sea

- The return of the Hosebeast

- Piss-poor storytelling excuses for not being able to secure Laura Donnelly to return as Jenny Murray for this episode

- The casting for the Lizzie Wemyss character

- The glossing over of time-travel

 

Random Things I Liked About this Episode:

- Ian Murray, Sr.

- Joanie

- Brianna fixing the kitchen cabinet

- Brianna wearing Claire's gorgeous green coat from Season I (but seriously, how many trunks of clothes did she have at Lallybroch?  She already took one with her on the Artemis and Marsali apparently altered several of the garments before Claire came back through the stones).

- PBJ

 

Being Completely Honest: 

As a book reader first, I mostly don't like this episode because it is completely off-book, and the "Brianna goes to Lallybroch" section of Book 4 is a huge highlight in the story.  Show didn't do it justice.  

And now I will go petulantly to the corner.

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Random Things I Hate About This Episode:

- Brianna

- Frank

- Brianna and Frank's relationship

- Brianna, a former history major and daughter of a history professor, traveling back in time so woefully underdressed and under-equipped.

- Roger, a history professor, traveling back in time so woefully underdressed and under-equipped.  WTF is up with the shpants, Rog?

- Stephen Bonnet

- Diseased ships and being captive at sea

- The return of the Hosebeast

- Piss-poor storytelling excuses for not being able to secure Laura Donnelly to return as Jenny Murray for this episode

- The casting for the Lizzie Wemyss character

- The glossing over of time-travel

Can I sit next to you on that bench? I have pastries...and no, they're no bannocks, they're the good shit!

[SassAndSnacks]

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

Can I sit next to you on that bench? I have pastries...and no, they're no bannocks, they're the good shit!

Absolutely, yes.  I've never met a carb I didn't like.  

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 12/19/2018 at 10:33 AM, HunterHunted said:

 It's actually even more egregious because our first introduction to Laoghaire is her father hauling her into Castle Leoch for being loose with some guy. The show never contends that this was untrue, just that being publicly flogged would ruin her.

Um, because there'd be nothing wrong with it by modern sensibilities if it were true? Although with a jealous jerk father like hers, it could be that she just smiled at a guy. But even if was more than that, nothing about Laoghaire's introduction makes her bad.

.

[gingerella]

48 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

But even if was more than that, nothing about Laoghaire's introduction makes her bad.

YMMV

Edited September 4, 2021 by gingerella

[Pallas]

That last image. Frank has made peace with his life and his loves. He knows that with Brianna, he finally got love right. And now he's seeing off his daughter to save her mother and her other father. He's seeing her off on the docks as he once saw off Claire in the railway station, in wartime, or to medical school, at a bastion of the establishment in the 1950's. 

Frank knows now, for sure and at last, that Claire was right: no amount of time, and nothing that he could do,  would win her back from Jamie. He got that wrong. And he knows that he'd choose her again, anyway: her and Brianna; that's what he got right. He knows that by loving Claire and believing her, by leaving behind his country to make a life abroad with her and their child, he has made himself part of history. Not its study nor its sweep, but something more -- its magic. The magic he felt in his scholar's heart when he believed he saw a ghost on Samhain, and when he sensed the power of the dancers at Craig na dun. The magic he felt in Claire and in Bri.

Bri, the child grown into someone who's left the study of history behind in order to try to build things, and now, to try to change history itself. Frank not only knows this in spirit, he gives her his blessing: her, and therefore, his own life. To me his smile says, "No one would look at either of us and think we live for love. But they're wrong. We got that right. Now take a sad song, and make it better."

[Scarlett45]

On 9/11/2021 at 8:13 AM, Pallas said:

That last image. Frank has made peace with his life and his loves. He knows that with Brianna, he finally got love right.

I agree with this. Frank absolutely loved Brianna unconditionally and was a wonderful father to her. Claire believes so, and Brianna believes so. Although Claire's return from the past and her continued love for Jaime hurt Frank on an emotional level, and all of the issues from their marriage, I dont think Frank regrets one minute of it because it gave him the person he loves most, Brianna. No she is not his biological child, a peace of him will live on in her and I am sure for him that made everything worth it. 

[gingerella]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I agree with this. Frank absolutely loved Brianna unconditionally and was a wonderful father to her. Claire believes so, and Brianna believes so. Although Claire's return from the past and her continued loved for Jaime hurt Frank on an emotional level, and all of the issues from their marriage, I dont think Frank regrets one minute of it because it gave him the person he loves most, Brianna. No she is not his biological child, a peace of him will live on in her and I am sure for him that made everything worth it. 

I love how you and @Pallas  were able to see that. I can see it mow too, and totally agree. Being a parent has nothing to do with biology. Fathering a child is biological, but parenting a child is completely different. And by the time Claire came back, Frank knew he was sterile and could never do the biological fathering, but he could be a parent and honestly? Jamie gave him that gift. I'd like to think that his appearance at the docks, saying goodbye to Brianna, was also his spirit making peace with that fact. If he had a moment of clarity, at some point I'd like to think he would have contemplated the angst that Jamie must have felt having to give up his daughter to ensure her safety, and how that must feel if he had to do the same, which he did I guess,  by appearing to her and giving her his bkessing.

[Sheikh Yerbouti]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:43 PM, SassAndSnacks said:

- Brianna, a former history major and daughter of a history professor, traveling back in time so woefully underdressed and under-equipped.

Zooming in on the map Brianna pulled out, it showed a route outlined from Craigh na Dun (helpfully marked on the map by a circle of stones) to Ayr, a port on the western coast. It also showed that Craigh na Dun (which I realize is not a real place) was not as close to Inverness as portrayed on the show — probably about 30-40 miles to the east. The route from stones to port marked in red on the map would have been a solid 200 mile journey. Brianna was going to walk there? Really, that was her plan? With just a single PBJ and not even a bottle of water? Agree with others that she should have first sought out Lollybroch. It was a complete and fortuitous coincidence that she passed out near Laoghaire’s house.

Also, isn’t Inverness itself a port city? Did transatlantic vessels not set sail from there in the 18th century?

(Not a book reader, binge-watching the show for the first time, unspoiled as to what follows.)

[mythoughtis]

Frank,  the man, a flawed human being that raises a child that he possibly loved.  He would never have given Brianna a send off to go see Jamie. Because he hated Jamie from the minute Claire was found.  Eventually he hated Claire too.  I wonder if he  enjoyed the fact that Brianna seemed to love him more than Claire.  
 

Frank, the ghost, is different.  Ghosts, or spirits, are often portrayed as having gained additional wisdom about humanity after death.  Also they are portrayed as giving up their human hatred.  Frank, the ghost, him I can see as giving Brianna his blessing.  He’s a ghost, and Claire and Jamie are alive.  They can take care of Brianna.   He can’t. 
 

[gingerella]

On 12/18/2018 at 6:02 PM, LoveIsJoy said:

On 12/18/2018 at 5:41 PM, Cdh20 said:

Pronounced Leery! It must be a Gaelic word??

Yeah, Leery is Gaelic for 'coniving whore bitch from hell'. Too strong? I thinketh not.

[gingerella]

20 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

Frank,  the man, a flawed human being that raises a child that he possibly loved.  He would never have given Brianna a send off to go see Jamie. Because he hated Jamie from the minute Claire was found.  Eventually he hated Claire too.  I wonder if he  enjoyed the fact that Brianna seemed to love him more than Claire.  
 

Frank, the ghost, is different.  Ghosts, or spirits, are often portrayed as having gained additional wisdom about humanity after death.  Also they are portrayed as giving up their human hatred.  Frank, the ghost, him I can see as giving Brianna his blessing.  He’s a ghost, and Claire and Jamie are alive.  They can take care of Brianna.   He can’t. 
 

You are more magnanimous than I towards our Frank but I see your points. I hated him so much that I appreciate when anyone can show me a different side to him. I think you are correct, he would never have condoned Brianna going through the Stones but DAMN, wouldn't it have been great to see him watch her go through? Presumably he cannot travel, we don't know, so to watch his daughter go back to find her mother and bio dad? That's the biggest fuck you Frank could get.

I don't think Frank hated Claire though. I think he hated her loving someone else in a way she could never love him. Because he loved her very much, but it was a stilted, immature love IMO. The sort where he owns her, in that very 1950's sort of way. He was very patient with her on the one hand, trying to get her to fall back in love with him. But he never allowed Claire to grieve her loss of Jamie, and that just festered for years. On top of that, every time he looked at his beloved daughter, he saw her flaming red hair - a reminder she was the child of another man, the man that his wife loved so much more than she ever loved him. So perhaps Frank having to be reminded every day of his life, that his daughter, the child he could never have had if it weren't for Jamie and Claire, was never really his to begin with. I suppose that's poetic justice for Frank, if you're into tragic poems and such.

I think Ghost Frank is Brianna's version of him so of course he would be more loving and benevolent...but that's not really who Frank was, that's a daughter's idealized version of her Daddy. IMO of course!

[Cdh20]

I have always wanted Frank to be more thankful to Jamie for giving him a child, otherwise he would never have had one. But I never really see TVFrank being that! 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Cdh20
Typo

[Scarlett45]

On 8/26/2022 at 4:32 PM, mythoughtis said:

Frank,  the man, a flawed human being that raises a child that he possibly loved.  He would never have given Brianna a send off to go see Jamie. Because he hated Jamie from the minute Claire was found.  Eventually he hated Claire too.  I wonder if he  enjoyed the fact that Brianna seemed to love him more than Claire.  
 

Frank, the ghost, is different.  Ghosts, or spirits, are often portrayed as having gained additional wisdom about humanity after death.  Also they are portrayed as giving up their human hatred.  Frank, the ghost, him I can see as giving Brianna his blessing.  He’s a ghost, and Claire and Jamie are alive.  They can take care of Brianna.   He can’t. 
 

I don't think he hated Claire. I think he hated that Claire didn't love him the way that he loved her, and another man had her heart.

I believed he loved Brianna unconditionally, and yes, because parents are people too, and parental jealous is a thing (we often talk about sexual jealousy but not jealousy in other relationships), he probably did enjoy that he was emotionally closer to Brianna than Claire was.

A lot of people love and raise children not biologically their own for a number of reasons, and the feelings they have towards the child's bio parent are often complex (cause humans are humans), I can see Frank being glad Claire came back so he would have Brianna in his life, but still hating that a part of her was in the past.

[SassAndSnacks]

On 8/27/2022 at 1:59 PM, gingerella said:

You are more magnanimous than I towards our Frank

On 8/27/2022 at 5:42 PM, Cdh20 said:

I have always wanted Frank to be more thankful to Jamie for giving him a child, otherwise he would never had had one.

I'm feeling petty, so I'm going to take this moment to remind the world that I loathe Frank Randall.  That is all.