S04.E07: Down the Rabbit Hole

[Athena]

Quote

Brianna follows in her mother's footsteps and travels through the stones back in time to 18th century Scotland where she struggles to make her way to the Colonies to find her parents.

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Posts may be removed without warning.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As soon as Brianna found herself at Leghair's house, I was expecting her to be held prisoner (I may have read too many VC Andrews books in middle school). When Brianna declined Ian's offer to go inside with her to book her passage, I was afraid that Leghair would show up and have her arrested for witchcraft. And YAY for seeing Ian again!

While Leghair was not my favorite character, what I liked is that we got to see that she is capable of being a perfectly nice human being when it comes to things that don't involve Jamie and Claire. She was kind of Brianna up until she learned that Claire was her mother and then she went from zero to sixty in about two seconds.

How old was Brianna supposed to be when Frank told her that he and Claire were getting a divorce? Because she was acting like a six year old. When she said, "I have no say in this?" I was like no, you naive little brat. You don't get to decide whether or not your parents get a divorce.

[cardigirl]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

How old was Brianna supposed to be when Frank told her that he and Claire were getting a divorce? Because she was acting like a six year old. When she said, "I have no say in this?" I was like no, you naive little brat. You don't get to decide whether or not your parents get a divorce.

I think most kids respond to the breakup of their FAMILY with some sort of response like that. They may not be losing a marriage, but they are losing the foundation of their family life. I didn’t see it as an unusual response at all. 

[nara]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

While Leghair was not my favorite character, what I liked is that we got to see that she is capable of being a perfectly nice human being when it comes to things that don't involve Jamie and Claire. She was kind of Brianna up until she learned that Claire was her mother and then she went from zero to sixty in about two seconds.

How old was Brianna supposed to be when Frank told her that he and Claire were getting a divorce? Because she was acting like a six year old. When she said, "I have no say in this?" I was like no, you naive little brat. You don't get to decide whether or not your parents get a divorce.

It was really good to see nice Laoghaire, who took in a stranger despite not having much herself. I laughed at how easily Joan accepted that Claire was a witch—and she seemed quite nonchalant about it.

Briana is 18 or 19 at the time of the conversation and I think her reaction is pretty normal. Her world is being rocked, so it’s pretty natural to be a little selfish in her initial response. Later on, she might have realized that this was not about her, but Frank died first.

 

Speaking of Frank, I was so happy to see him again. I hate when important characters are forgotten once their time in the plot is over. Good job on including him.

 

 I wonder why Brianna didn’t try to go to Lallybrock before heading to America. She could have sent a letter to Claire and Jamie and warned them and/or alerted them to her arrival.it would have given her time to learn the ways of 18th century in a safish place. She could have also gotten the latest news on Jamie and Claire. 

Was sorry not to see Jenny, but I assume the actress was not available.

I wonder what they will make of Brianna at River Run. maybe she will be named heiress! ;)

 

That Bonnet guy! I guess he’s the big bad of the season. Pretty horrifying to see him throw a child off the boat, but I wonder if there was a place to quarantine people on the boat. The story of the sacrifice was good. That happened last season too until the Chinese gentleman distracted everyone, so it’s a nice throwback. 

I almost didn’t recognize Roger without the beard. Why did he have to shave it? We’ve see other characters with facial hair.

Despite no Jamie and Claire I enjoyed the episode. At least we know they didn’t get into trouble for one week.  I know lots of posters don’t like the Brianna actress, but I think she did a great job as the lead for this episode.

[BitterApple]

I loved this episode and Tobias Menzies as Frank is always welcome on my TV screen. I felt like this epi had so many "Holy Shit!" moments. Frank being featured, the audience realizing he found out about Claire's and Jamie's deaths, Brianna ending up at Laorghaire's, the kid being tossed overboard etc. 

Speaking of which, did they really do that back then? That was brutal. 

You'd think a former history major like Brianna would've been smarter than to claim to know the future in 18th century Scotland. I was raised in Boston and we were well versed in the Salem Witch Trials as part of our local history. She's lucky Joanie has no personal issues with witchcraft, lol.

Seeing Ian Sr. melted my heart. He's always been one of my favorite characters. It's too bad Brianna didn't get to spend more time with him, but I get that the plot has to be pushed along. Someone on FB confirmed the actress who plays Jenny wasn't available, so that explains why she wasn't featured.

I feel so ashamed for saying this, but I view Stephen Bonnet much like I do Jamie Lannister. No matter how many children they push off ledges, they're still hot a/f and could get it any time they wanted. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by BitterApple

[Cdh20]

I liked how the Frank & Brianna parts coincided with 303- so Frank asked Claire for a divorce after finding out that she left him to go back to Jamie! 

I liked Bri waking up at Laoghaire’s   house- I said “ oh shit” out loud!

I liked that Laoghaire mentioned her grandchild- so he has been born? Why don’t Jamie $ Claire know?

I liked the parallel of the marriages, & Bri & Joanie bonding over stepdads.

I hated Roger’s pants, & Stephen throwing the child out the window ( wow this season has been harsh)

I am confused that there was no one else at Lallybrock. Last year when Claire & Jamie dropped in there was a million kids running around??

I wondered how long it would take Laoghaire to lose it? Not long after finding out who Bri was,  now was it.

I think Bri should have been better prepared for the weather, a long walk, whatever, it’s almost like she didn’t research that at all ??  I loved that she got Claire’s fab coat from season 1!

Roger’s walk to a port was awfully short!!

Edited December 17, 2018 by Cdh20
Added a thought

[HerkyJerky]

21 hours ago, nara said:

I know lots of posters don’t like the Brianna actress, but I think she did a great job as the lead for this episode.

Count me as one of the posters who don't like the actress.  She's not the worst actress ever but she certainly is the worst actress of the cast of Outlander.  Heck, even the young girl who played Joanie was a much more believable actress. 

[AAEBoiler]

I just found it laughable that in the middle of the Scottish highlands, with it's wide open vistas and snow-covered mountains that Brianna stops, opens her map, looks around, and thinks, "Yep, that's the way I need to go." I literally laughed out loud at that scene.

[Cdh20]

23 hours ago, nara said:

I wonder what they will make of Brianna at River Run. maybe she will be named heiress!

It only took Jamie a day or two so I expect it will be the case!

23 hours ago, nara said:

Briana is 18 or 19 at the time of the conversation and I think her reaction is pretty normal.

I think this scene fell into 303, between graduation, & university starting, so she is 18.

[Cdh20]

21 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Seeing Ian Sr. melted my heart. He's always been one of my favorite characters. It's too bad Brianna didn't get to spend more time with him, but I get that the plot has to be pushed along. Someone on FB confirmed the actress who plays Jenny wasn't available, so that explains why she wasn't featured.

I thought this part was weirdly rushed, & lacked emotion- I expected Ian to be more excited(remember when he first saw Claire when she came back?) & although Jenny was unavailable -where was everyone else? Wouldn't Bri have enjoyed meeting her cousins? 

[BonnieD]

LOL I got really confused for a moment when the lady with teething baby said her kid was named Jamie McKenzie. In my mind I heard "Frazier" and thought Roger  had accidentally entered upon and earlier part of the timeline. Then when I realized Jamie's mother would never have been on a boat to America, it corrected my mind.

I know getting into the specifics of time travel is ridiculous, BUT... How in the world would one imagine they could A. even get the stone to work so easily just by willing it to and B. get back to the exact point in time they want to go. I don't know if the books get into any specifics about how the portal works, but really they need to make up something, no matter how nuts, to explain how there could be any control whatsoever in when and even WHERE they land. If portals are interconnected across the globe, you might end up anywhere at any time in history--or future.
But is suppose it isn't a sci fi show. It's a romance and one has to assume that these particular characters' lives are entwined so they'll keep bumping up against each other throughout history.

[BitterApple]

41 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

I thought this part was weirdly rushed, & lacked emotion- I expected Ian to be more excited(remember when he first saw Claire when she came back?) & although Jenny was unavailable -where was everyone else? Wouldn't Bri have enjoyed meeting her cousins? 

Yeah, especially the part where Ian totally handwaves the fact that a long-lost niece randomly shows up after 20 years with a distinctly American accent and no plausible explanation as to why her parents kept her existence a secret. 

With regards to Laorghaire's comment about her grandchild, I don't think the individual storylines are shown in chronological order. During Roger's scenes on the ship, I noticed his hair was much longer and lighter, indicating he's months into his ocean voyage. Meanwhile Brianna is just setting sail from Scotland even though she went through the Stones weeks before Roger did. 

Also, and this is probably kind of mean, but given Lizzie's back story I kind of expected her to be some delicate beauty. She didn't exactly look the type that a guy would pay a boatload of money for to keep as a concubine. 

[monakane]

22 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I feel so ashamed for saying this, but I view Stephen Bonnet much like I do Jamie Lannister. No matter how many children they push off ledges, they're still hot a/f and could get it any time they wanted. 

LOL!  Whenever I watch GOT, I always have to remind myself that Jamie pushed a kid off a ledge and also has sex with his sister because I am always charmed by him.

[nara]

2 hours ago, AAEBoiler said:

I just found it laughable that in the middle of the Scottish highlands, with it's wide open vistas and snow-covered mountains that Brianna stops, opens her map, looks around, and thinks, "Yep, that's the way I need to go." I literally laughed out loud at that scene.

What made me laugh/worry was her starting a fire under a tree . A little sensitive about forest fires right now.

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

I thought this part was weirdly rushed, & lacked emotion- I expected Ian to be more excited(remember when he first saw Claire when she came back?) & although Jenny was unavailable -where was everyone else? Wouldn't Bri have enjoyed meeting her cousins? 

I think they’re saving actor salaries for the big America and boat scenes, which require a lot of people.

[taanja]

On 12/16/2018 at 9:54 AM, nara said:

It was really good to see nice Laoghaire, who took in a stranger despite not having much herself. I laughed at how easily Joan accepted that Claire was a witch—and she seemed quite nonchalant about it.

Briana is 18 or 19 at the time of the conversation and I think her reaction is pretty normal. Her world is being rocked, so it’s pretty natural to be a little selfish in her initial response. Later on, she might have realized that this was not about her, but Frank died first.

 

Speaking of Frank, I was so happy to see him again. I hate when important characters are forgotten once their time in the plot is over. Good job on including him.

 

 I wonder why Brianna didn’t try to go to Lallybrock before heading to America. She could have sent a letter to Claire and Jamie and warned them and/or alerted them to her arrival.it would have given her time to learn the ways of 18th century in a safish place. She could have also gotten the latest news on Jamie and Claire. 

Was sorry not to see Jenny, but I assume the actress was not available.

I wonder what they will make of Brianna at River Run. maybe she will be named heiress! ;)

 

That Bonnet guy! I guess he’s the big bad of the season. Pretty horrifying to see him throw a child off the boat, but I wonder if there was a place to quarantine people on the boat. The story of the sacrifice was good. That happened last season too until the Chinese gentleman distracted everyone, so it’s a nice throwback. 

I almost didn’t recognize Roger without the beard. Why did he have to shave it? We’ve see other characters with facial hair.

Despite no Jamie and Claire I enjoyed the episode. At least we know they didn’t get into trouble for one week.  I know lots of posters don’t like the Brianna actress, but I think she did a great job as the lead for this episode.

It never occurred to me the actress wasn't available? Did you read the somewhere? Old Ian said she was birthing a baby -- one of the many grand kids they seem to have-- I took his word for it and didn't even question anything about the actress. But when I watch the show-- I think of them as people/characters and NOT the real life actors who portray them! haha!

Anywho I really liked this one! Loved that Brianna ended up at Leghair's house! That was great. And I was waiting breathlessly for all of them to finally find out who they are to one another. And the show didn't disappoint! Ole Leghair went cray cray pretty damn fast! It was marvelous!

I love Jimmy from Downton Abby! What's the character name? Bonnet? God! He is great! Throw that kid over the boat! haha! I freakin' laughed out loud!

I know! I know! It was supposed to be cruel and show he (Bonnet) is a villain and all. But hey!!! It was great cuz you just knew he was going to go there! And hell! Small pocks could wipe out an entire ship full of folks so as captain -- I understood where he was coming from.

I too did not recognize Roger without his beard!

Oh and can I say how much I loved seeing Frank again. The actor plays the longing and angst and unrequited love amazingly well. I believe! Oh lord I believe all the way! I've always had sympathy for Frank -- he did the best he could in an impossible situation. And he truly loved Brianna and was the best father he could be. So I can't fault his jealousy toward Claire and Jaime.

[nara]

17 minutes ago, taanja said:

It never occurred to me the actress wasn't available? Did you read the somewhere? Old Ian said she was birthing a baby -- one of the many grand kids they seem to have-- I took his word for it and didn't even question anything about the actress. But when I watch the show-- I think of them as people/characters and NOT the real life actors who portray them! haha!

 

I love Jimmy from Downton Abby! What's the character name? Bonnet? God! He is great! Throw that kid over the boat! haha! I freakin' laughed out loud!

At the time of the post, it was an assumption, but I subsequently saw an article about it. 

https://ew.com/tv/2018/12/16/outlander-jenny-laura-donnelly-laoghaire-nell-hudson/

 Thanks! Downton Abbey—that’s why he’s so familiar 

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, BonnieD said:

LOL I got really confused for a moment when the lady with teething baby said her kid was named Jamie McKenzie. In my mind I heard "Frazier" and thought Roger  had accidentally entered upon and earlier part of the timeline. Then when I realized Jamie's mother would never have been on a boat to America, it corrected my mind.

I know getting into the specifics of time travel is ridiculous, BUT... How in the world would one imagine they could A. even get the stone to work so easily just by willing it to and B. get back to the exact point in time they want to go. I don't know if the books get into any specifics about how the portal works, but really they need to make up something, no matter how nuts, to explain how there could be any control whatsoever in when and even WHERE they land. If portals are interconnected across the globe, you might end up anywhere at any time in history--or future.
But is suppose it isn't a sci fi show. It's a romance and one has to assume that these particular characters' lives are entwined so they'll keep bumping up against each other throughout history.

I always felt that Claire was destined for Jamie so that's why she ended up there. 

I think Brianna & Roger used Geillis' book of time travel!

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Also, and this is probably kind of mean, but given Lizzie's back story I kind of expected her to be some delicate beauty. She didn't exactly look the type that a guy would pay a boatload of money for to keep as a concubine. 

LOL, she was homely!

1 hour ago, nara said:

4 hours ago, AAEBoiler said:

 

What made me laugh/worry was her starting a fire under a tree . A little sensitive about forest fires right now.

Yikes, do you live in California? 

[RedHackle]

For those with younger, sharper hearing than mine - did anyone catch Bonnet's last line to Roger - after telling the story from his childhood and tossing the coin deciding whether or not to toss Roger overboard, Bonnet said one other thing to him but I couldn't understand it. Anyone?

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Yeah, especially the part where Ian totally handwaves the fact that a long-lost niece randomly shows up after 20 years with a distinctly American accent and no plausible explanation as to why her parents kept her existence a secret

Claire did say she'd been living in America, & He might not know what an American accent sounded like?

9 minutes ago, RedHackle said:

For those with younger, sharper hearing than mine - did anyone catch Bonnet's last line to Roger - after telling the story from his childhood and tossing the coin deciding whether or not to toss Roger overboard, Bonnet said one other thing to him but I couldn't understand it. Anyone?

We could not understand it either, it's going to need the captions on.

[taanja]

3 hours ago, BonnieD said:

LOL I got really confused for a moment when the lady with teething baby said her kid was named Jamie McKenzie. In my mind I heard "Frazier" and thought Roger  had accidentally entered upon and earlier part of the timeline. Then when I realized Jamie's mother would never have been on a boat to America, it corrected my mind.

I know getting into the specifics of time travel is ridiculous, BUT... How in the world would one imagine they could A. even get the stone to work so easily just by willing it to and B. get back to the exact point in time they want to go. I don't know if the books get into any specifics about how the portal works, but really they need to make up something, no matter how nuts, to explain how there could be any control whatsoever in when and even WHERE they land. If portals are interconnected across the globe, you might end up anywhere at any time in history--or future.
But is suppose it isn't a sci fi show. It's a romance and one has to assume that these particular characters' lives are entwined so they'll keep bumping up against each other throughout history.

I've been told I put too much thought into the time travel aspect. LOL The show does NOT do a good job explaining how it happens. I have to just let it go or else my head starts to hurt! Because it doesn't make sense! It is illogical! 

[nara]

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

Yikes, do you live in California? 

No, but have friends and relatives there. :(

[viajero]

I really enjoyed this episode.  It was a refreshing break away from the repetitive Clair gets into trouble episodes.  Plus, add me to those who like the actress who plays Briana.

7 hours ago, BonnieD said:

I know getting into the specifics of time travel is ridiculous, BUT... How in the world would one imagine they could A. even get the stone to work so easily just by willing it to and B. get back to the exact point in time they want to go. I don't know if the books get into any specifics about how the portal works, but really they need to make up something, no matter how nuts, to explain how there could be any control whatsoever in when and even WHERE they land. If portals are interconnected across the globe, you might end up anywhere at any time in history--or future.
But is suppose it isn't a sci fi show. It's a romance and one has to assume that these particular characters' lives are entwined so they'll keep bumping up against each other throughout history.

My understanding was that each portal takes you back a specific number of years from when you started and always to the same place.  This is why when Claire returned to the past, the same number of years had gone by for her as for Jaime.  What I don't get is what causes the portal to activate.  Do you just have to touch the stone in a particular place?

[Cdh20]

4 hours ago, nara said:

No, but have friends and relatives there. :(

Here's hoping there are no more disasters there! 

[nara]

34 minutes ago, viajero said:

My understanding was that each portal takes you back a specific number of years from when you started and always to the same place.  This is why when Claire returned to the past, the same number of years had gone by for her as for Jaime.  What I don't get is what causes the portal to activate.  Do you just have to touch the stone in a particular place?

My interpretation is that you have to be a person to whom the stones call, which appears to be hereditary. Also, Geillis figured out that it was related to precious stones. IIRC, having a precious stone and concentrating guided your direction (but I could be wrong). Claire had 18th century Scotland and BJR on her mind due to Frank’s discussions and that’s where she ended up. Geillis was trying to change the planning for the uprising and that’s where she ended up. Brianna is concentrating on Claire, and Roger, on Brianna. It would be nice if it that concentration took you to right location and not just the right time period.

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, viajero said:

I really enjoyed this episode.  It was a refreshing break away from the repetitive Clair gets into trouble episodes.  Plus, add me to those who like the actress who plays Briana.

My understanding was that each portal takes you back a specific number of years from when you started and always to the same place.  This is why when Claire returned to the past, the same number of years had gone by for her as for Jaime.  What I don't get is what causes the portal to activate.  Do you just have to touch the stone in a particular place?

I think the only thing the show has shown is that only certain people can open the portal, & that it is hereditary!

[LoveDance]

I loved Frank returning and that last scene at the dock made me tear up. God he had the obituary of Jamie and Claire before he died so he knew that Claire would reunite with Jamie, so emotionional to see the daughter you raised also go to the only man Claire really loved. I was heart broken for Frank. 

[Nidratime]

5 minutes ago, LoveDance said:

I loved Frank returning and that last scene at the dock made me tear up. God he had the obituary of Jamie and Claire before he died so he knew that Claire would reunite with Jamie, so emotionional to see the daughter you raised also go to the only man Claire really loved. I was heart broken for Frank. 

Well, Jamie sent the only child that he had at the time ahead to the future in the hope that both Claire and the baby would make it safely and that Frank would accept her and the baby. That broke my heart. With this latest scene, we've come full circle. With that little nod on the docks, Frank is giving Brianna back to Jamie, at least in Brianna's mind and heart.

(It does bother me a little that we're talking about an adult woman being given over to a man's safekeeping but a child will always be a child to their parent and need to be guided, loved, and kept safe by them no matter how old the child is.)

[Hannah Lee]

On 12/16/2018 at 10:54 AM, nara said:

 I wonder why Brianna didn’t try to go to Lallybrock before heading to America.

 

 

She did go there, didn't she?  Isn't that where Joan brought her after she fled from Laoghaire's house?  That's where she spoke with Ian and got the trunk of Claire's clothes.

I thought that's where she was headed when she collapsed by the roadside.

On a different topic - I'm really surprised at how poorly outfitted Brianna was for the Scottish Highlands.  No gloves?  And no wool clothes?    When Laorhaire gave her some wool garment to wear, I was like, "wait, what?   Brianna didn't think to wear wool to the Scottish Highlands in late autumn/winter, when she planned to hike for miles across open land?  What was she wearing, cotton? Some fancy 1971 polyester blend?   No wonder she passed out from exposure. "   She saw Claire preparing for her own travel through the stones, so I would have thought she would have spent some time on her own outfit and been better dressed.

Also, I nearly laughed out loud when Brianna blurted out the needless "he never loved you!" to Laoghaire about Jamie.  Which of course caused L to freak out and lock her in the room instead of letting her leave.   Yeah, like mother, like daughter, Bri, you just couldn't pack in silence and leave, you had to shoot off your mouth and get yourself in real hot water.   Never change Beauchamp women, never change.

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

I think the only thing the show has shown is that only certain people can open the portal, & that it is hereditary!

 

Yeah, the show has shown only certain people are able to sense the stones energy.  So before Culloden, Claire could hear the humming, but Jaime couldn't.  When Geillis went back in 1968, Clair, Brianna and Roger could all hear it.  And when Roger went this time, he could hear the "bees" (that's what it sounds like to me) but Fiona couldn't... though I wonder if she could see all the wind start whipping around.

They did have a quick convo about Roger having a gemstone, so maybe that's part of it too.  Claire lost a gem from a ring Jamie gave her when she went back to the 1940's and Geillis' notes had something about gemstones being needed.  So maybe it takes a combo of "traveller's blood" and gemstone to activate and draw you to the right place.

[nara]

2 minutes ago, Hannah Lee said:

 

She did go there, didn't she?  Isn't that where Joan brought her after she fled from Laoghaire's house?  That's where she spoke with Ian and got the trunk of Claire's clothes.

I thought that's where she was headed when she collapsed by the roadside.

 

I thought she told Laoghaire she was headed to the harbor.

[ganesh]

On 12/16/2018 at 10:33 AM, BitterApple said:

Frank being featured, the audience realizing he found out about Claire's and Jamie's deaths,

Yeah that's tough for Frank. I don't know what the books are like, and I don't care to, but he's been given really short shrift. I didn't like how the last season was so accelerated, and I feel like including this scene then would have been more impactful. I feel like there was so much left on the table with Frank and her. I just think he's an exceptional actor and is criminally underused. 

It seemed a little much that both Roger and Bree seemed to get to the past without too much difficulty. Though when Bree said "Claire". Oy. 

On 12/16/2018 at 10:33 AM, BitterApple said:

I feel so ashamed for saying this, but I view Stephen Bonnet much like I do Jamie Lannister. No matter how many children they push off ledges, they're still hot a/f and could get it any time they wanted. 

Many villains are magnetic. What can you do? Even Bronn stuck with Jamie. 

13 hours ago, AAEBoiler said:

I just found it laughable that in the middle of the Scottish highlands, with it's wide open vistas and snow-covered mountains that Brianna stops, opens her map, looks around, and thinks, "Yep, that's the way I need to go." I literally laughed out loud at that scene.

To be fair, she had a red line on the map with a circle. *snort* I mean, really, they had compasses back in 1971. 

12 hours ago, BonnieD said:

I don't know if the books get into any specifics about how the portal works, but really they need to make up something, no matter how nuts, to explain how there could be any control whatsoever in when and even WHERE they land. If portals are interconnected across the globe, you might end up anywhere at any time in history--or future.

No, it's not a scifi show. The whole time travel aspect is what drew me in. To be fair, in the first season they sang a song about how someone in Jamie's time went through the stones and found themselves in the past, and then returned. So we do know that it's always to the past when you go, and that however much time goes through when you're there that if you go back, you're that much more forward in time. We also know Gellis researched the stones extensively, and had more control over when she went because she used a human sacrifice. Only Bree, Claire, and Roger heard the 'buzzing'. None of them know of the other stones, so they don't necessarily know they can go elsewhere. I'd be certainly trying to figure out the stones, but yeah, this isn't that show. I was hoping for more. 

I actually liked the break from Claire and Jamie. There's been a few episodes this season I've genuinely enjoyed. 

So I guess the theme is if you're from the future, you're going to mouth off in the past like you know better. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by ganesh

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 12/16/2018 at 12:33 PM, BitterApple said:

You'd think a former history major like Brianna would've been smarter than to claim to know the future in 18th century Scotland. I was raised in Boston and we were well versed in the Salem Witch Trials as part of our local history. She's lucky Joanie has no personal issues with witchcraft, lol.

 

Well, witch trials were supposed to be over in Great Britain by then. Even the one Claire and Geillis endured was technically illegal, only went forward because Colum wanted it to, and was probably the last ever held.

4 hours ago, viajero said:

My understanding was that each portal takes you back a specific number of years from when you started and always to the same place.  This is why when Claire returned to the past, the same number of years had gone by for her as for Jaime.  What I don't get is what causes the portal to activate.  Do you just have to touch the stone in a particular place?

As others have said, the ability to go through the portals is hereditary, so Brianna can use them because she's Claire's daughter and Roger can because he's distantly descended from Geillis. These people can hear a sound like bees buzzing when they're near the portals.

Also, in Claire and Geillis's conversation last season, Claire reasoned that you can go through by focusing on a specific person in the other time (Jamie for Claire, Claire for Brianna, Brianna for Roger), whereas Geillis used blood sacrifices to have more control over when she ended up.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Noneofyourbusiness

[ganesh]

4 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

As others have said, the ability to go through the portals is hereditary, so Brianna can use them because she's Claire's daughter and Roger can because he's distantly descended from Geillis.

He is? Since when? I totally missed this. I don't get how that makes sense because she never heard the buzzing. 

Is the captain of the ship Roger is on supposed to be a bad guy? Because I watched Black Sails. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by ganesh

[Noneofyourbusiness]

16 minutes ago, ganesh said:

He is? Since when? I totally missed this. I don't get how that makes sense because she never heard the buzzing.

 

Season 2, Claire went through family records and they established that Roger is the great-great-great-great-great-grandson of Geillis and Dougal. Through their illegitimate child she was pregnant with when she was arrested. "So I'm descended from the war chief you spoke of? And the witch?" His father's family were MacKenzies. His mother was Reverend Wakefield's niece. So he was going by Roger Wakefield after his adoptive father the Reverend, but now he's going by Roger MacKenzie.

Technically he and Brianna are related, but they're only second cousins five times removed.

We haven't seen Geillis in a situation where she would say, "I hear buzzing", but we can assume she has.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Noneofyourbusiness

[ganesh]

No, we can't assume Gellis heard buzzing, because she wouldn't have needed to kill her husband to go through the stones. Also, everyone on the show who has heard buzzing has said they heard buzzing, or it was made abundantly clear that they did. We can assume that being a descendant of Dougal was why Roger heard the buzzing, which again in this episode, they made sure we knew he did. And in fact, when Jamie pleaded with Claire to go back to Frank through the stones, Claire specifically said to Jamie, "do you hear that?" "No." So, although, the show isn't really going to do much about time travel, they have been consistent in that regard. 

I don't recall when Claire was in the cave in Jamaica when she killed Gellis if there was buzzing. 

I mean, I know it's certainly difficult for a woman at the time, but I kind of laughed that Bree had a map with a red crayon and a pb&j sandwich, and she thought that was enough. 

I like how the Captain is essentially Two-Face. 

So, that aside, it begs the question of who was the skull Claire found. If the both of Bree and Roger went back accordingly, who else could it be? 

Edited December 18, 2018 by ganesh

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 minute ago, ganesh said:

No, we can't assume Gellis heard buzzing, because she wouldn't have needed to kill her husband to go through the stones.

As I said, she did that to control her passage, per her conversation with Claire in Season 3. Rather than go haphazardly.

When she was at the stones, we only saw her for a moment before she disappeared, and at the pool she was intent on her business. No one was asking her what she heard.

2 minutes ago, ganesh said:

We can assume that being a descendant of Dougal was why Roger heard the buzzing

No, that doesn't follow. Dougal never showed evidence of hearing buzzing. Just like Jamie, his nephew. Their side of the family doesn't have the hereditary ability to go through the portals. Roger got it from Geillis.

[ganesh]

I dispute this because the show has been consistent on the characters being able to hear the buzzing and making that clear to the viewers. Gellis never mentioned it, so attributing to her is not consistent with what the show has presented. 

It could simply be that because she was from the future and had a child with someone from the past that it made all their descendants able to travel. That's fine. I can roll with that because the show has been consistent with people saying they *don't* hear the buzzing. So there must be something about the people who do.

This begs the question, with fair justification for Bree and Roger, why Claire can. 

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

He is? Since when? I totally missed this. I don't get how that makes sense because she never heard the buzzing. 

Is the captain of the ship Roger is on supposed to be a bad guy? Because I watched Black Sails. 

The ship captain is the guy who robbed Jamie & Claire in episode 401, so yeah he’s our new villian!

[WInterfalls]

Gellis killed her husband because she believed it would help her travel but there is no sign that actually had an impact. She mostly made blood sacrifices because she was a psycho. Claire told her repeatedly she didn’t need a blood sacrifice but Gellis didn’t want to risk it.

There was buzzing in the cave when Claire looked at the pool but there were also drums happening outside so it wasn’t as distinctive. And just because Gellis didn’t mention the buzzing doesn’t mean she didn’t hear it. We already know that she can travel and those who can travel hear the buzzing. Ergo she can hear the buzzing. They mention it mainly when discussing people we aren’t sure about. Can Fiona? no can Roger?  yes. We already know about Gellis so it doesn’t need to be fleshed out. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by WInterfalls

[Nidratime]

Roger can go through the stones because he is a descendant of Geillis, not because of Dougal. Geillis is the one who traveled through the stones, not Dougal. Ergo, Roger got it from her. Geillis didn't mention buzzing because at the times we saw her near a portal she 1) had no need to or 2) was otherwise busy. Who would she be talking to on Craig na dun before going through the stones? Her dead husband? Presumably she had been to Craig na dun before this, during her research, and heard the stones buzzing at that point. As for the sacrifice, Geillis was throwing whatever she could at the wall -- pardon the pun -- to see what stuck. Claire proved, earlier -- since she actually traveled in the 1940's -- that you did not need a sacrifice and so did Bree and Roger. What they all had, which was evident in the show, was a gemstone, which presumably helped them in someway. To steer? I don't know.

[brilliantbreakfast]

I'm usually able to suspend a lot of disbelief with this show, and maybe it's because Sophie Skelton is not the actress that Caitriona Balfe is, but this episode kind of lost me.  First of all, who decides to time-travel to SCOTLAND in the dead of winter -- and with no gloves?  I realize that Brianna is young, but really.  She did enough homework to buy or make reasonably appropriate attire, she didn't think about what walking around Scotland in the snow would be like?  She didn't think about what talking about knowing things that would happen in the future would sound like in 18th century rural Scotland?

[Nidratime]

3 hours ago, brilliantbreakfast said:

I'm usually able to suspend a lot of disbelief with this show, and maybe it's because Sophie Skelton is not the actress that Caitriona Balfe is, but this episode kind of lost me.  First of all, who decides to time-travel to SCOTLAND in the dead of winter -- and with no gloves?  I realize that Brianna is young, but really.  She did enough homework to buy or make reasonably appropriate attire, she didn't think about what walking around Scotland in the snow would be like?  She didn't think about what talking about knowing things that would happen in the future would sound like in 18th century rural Scotland?

We really can't blame Sophie Skelton for this. It was the costume department who dressed her and writers who created the dialogue. 

[Otherkate]

On 12/16/2018 at 10:54 AM, nara said:

Despite no Jamie and Claire I enjoyed the episode. At least we know they didn’t get into trouble for one week.  I know lots of posters don’t like the Brianna actress, but I think she did a great job as the lead for this episode.

I have been hating on the actress who plays Brianna since her first appearance, so imagine my surprise when I completely loved this episode. This was one of my favorites of the season. And - strangely - I thought she did a pretty good job. She's much better acting alongside Tobias than she is Roger. MUCH.

I really loved this one. I thought it was so poignant, and necessary, to see the collateral damage done by the Jamie/Claire love story. I can't stand Laoghaire, but this made me see the story from her and Frank's perspective and I really enjoyed that. Who knows what else Frank has figured out? It's interesting to me that he has continued to research Jamie and Claire. I love Jamie and Claire, but this episode was so much better served by not having them in it. I'm looking forward to Brianna and Rogers adventures now and could not have imagined myself saying that earlier in the season. Could have done without Brianna limping around for what seemed like hours, but other than that, all good.

Speaking of Roger. I know that Bonnet is obviously a villain and terrible, but I'm not sure what else he could have done with the girl who had small pox. In that day and age, wouldn't the entire ship have likely died from it? He could have been a little nicer about it, but how nice can you be when you're tossing a child off of a ship?

[cardigirl]

Has anyone found any evidence that tossing infected people overboard was common practice in the 1700s?  I've yet to find anything referring to it. Which makes me think that Bonnet is just plain ol' evil and not calculating in trying to protect his crew and passengers. Last season, Claire went aboard a British ship and treated sick men, and they were quarantining men, but not tossing them overboard. I think Bonnet is abhorrent.  He definitely could have quarantined that family, and anyone else, but chose not to. He is damaged, like his story about not being chosen for the sacrifice indicated, but he is horrible. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by cardigirl

[brilliantbreakfast]

16 hours ago, Nidratime said:

Well, Jamie sent the only child that he had at the time ahead to the future in the hope that both Claire and the baby would make it safely and that Frank would accept her and the baby. That broke my heart. With this latest scene, we've come full circle. With that little nod on the docks, Frank is giving Brianna back to Jamie, at least in Brianna's mind and heart.

That broke mine too.  I don't know anyone who has lost someone they love to death (including me) who hasn't seen that person somewhere in real life.  I've seen my husband in a supermarket parking lot and at the airport when I flew to look at the house I moved to after he died.  That scene with Brianna seeing Frank at the docks echoed that strongly for me and I'm sure for others.

[taanja]

14 hours ago, ganesh said:

No, we can't assume Gellis heard buzzing, because she wouldn't have needed to kill her husband to go through the stones. Also, everyone on the show who has heard buzzing has said they heard buzzing, or it was made abundantly clear that they did. We can assume that being a descendant of Dougal was why Roger heard the buzzing, which again in this episode, they made sure we knew he did. And in fact, when Jamie pleaded with Claire to go back to Frank through the stones, Claire specifically said to Jamie, "do you hear that?" "No." So, although, the show isn't really going to do much about time travel, they have been consistent in that regard. 

I don't recall when Claire was in the cave in Jamaica when she killed Gellis if there was buzzing. 

I mean, I know it's certainly difficult for a woman at the time, but I kind of laughed that Bree had a map with a red crayon and a pb&j sandwich, and she thought that was enough. 

I like how the Captain is essentially Two-Face. 

So, that aside, it begs the question of who was the skull Claire found. If the both of Bree and Roger went back accordingly, who else could it be? 

 

I can't remember whether if they ever made a point of saying/showing Gellis hearing the buzzing?

But they did make a point last season in that cave with the pool of magical water -- Claire told Jaime she might not be able to stop herself from going in -- or something like that -- and remember Jaime had to pull her away from the edge cuz it's like it puts her into a trance.
It seems to me (and I could be wrong cuz I haven't read any of the books except the first one long long ago) but whatever portal is used -- it brings a person back to the past/future but in that exact same spot. So the magical pool on that island would send a person backward/ forward in time? but they would end up still on that island. Right? Not like it transports a person across the ocean or anything. Right? 

So if Gellis had been successful last season she may have gone into the future -- but she would still have been on that island? 

Edited December 18, 2018 by taanja

[ganesh]

My thing is though Gellis went through in 1968 and landed in time quite before Claire. For Claire's travel time flowed like normal. It makes more sense that Roger can travel because of hybrid DNA or whatever than just Gellis. 

The more interesting question for me is why Claire? And I'm really hoping there's an eventual reveal to the skull Claire found. 

[AAEBoiler]

3 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Last season, Claire went aboard a British ship and treated sick men, and they were quarantining men, but not tossing them overboard.

I think that was the difference between a British Navy ship under military command where they value their sailors and a "commercial" sailing under dubious command where they got paid up front for passage so it's no difference to Bonnet whether the people make it to America or not. He's already gotten paid.

Edited December 18, 2018 by AAEBoiler

[cardigirl]

30 minutes ago, AAEBoiler said:

I think that was the difference between a British Navy ship under military command where they value their sailor and a "commercial" sailing under dubious command where they got paid up front for passage so it's no difference to Bonnet whether or not the people make it to America or not. He's already gotten paid.

I agree, I was just saying, people seem to feel that it was standard procedure to toss sick people overboard, and I don't think it was.  I think Bonnet's choice to do so was a measure of how bad a person he really is, not how caring or careful a captain he was choosing to be. 

[LoveIsJoy]

Can someone please educate me on the correct pronunciation of "Laoghaire?"  With the accents, I have never been able to quite catch what she's being called.  Then, when I come to the boards, I see it spelled Laoghaire, but the spelling doesn't match what I'm hearing.  I guess it's like that actress Saoirse Ronan--pretty name--but sounds nothing like Americans would spell it. 

 

Thanks.

[Cdh20]

2 minutes ago, LoveIsJoy said:

Can someone please educate me on the correct pronunciation of "Laoghaire?"  With the accents, I have never been able to quite catch what she's being called.  Then, when I come to the boards, I see it spelled Laoghaire, but the spelling doesn't match what I'm hearing.  I guess it's like that actress Saoirse Ronan--pretty name--but sounds nothing like Americans would spell it. 

 

Thanks.

Pronounced Leery! It must be a Gaelic word??

Edited December 19, 2018 by Cdh20