S14.E08 : Byzantium

[bearcatfan]

I just want to state that nearly anyone who adopts a child does not have to care for that child for years to love that child as a child. I dare any of you to say that to an adoptive parent and come away without bruises. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I just want to state that nearly anyone who adopts a child does not have to care for that child for years to love that child as a child. I dare any of you to say that to an adoptive parent and come away without bruises. 

They didn`t adopt him and Jack is not a child, the situation is a lot more complex than that. However, everything hinges on the relationships as developed onscreen and how organic and believable one finds them. As such I thought their reactions were way over the top, compared to other characters they have lost even.  

On another CW show, the 100, the main character took a child under her wing and raised her for a time so when she acted like, honestly, a psychotic helicopter mom who was willing to let her former friends be slaughtered to protect her daughter, she wasn`t likeable in any way but believable. Supernatural has the revolving door of storytelling, meaning characters like Jack weave in and out of the storyline. However, that makes episodes like this were they get to maximum hand-wringing in 0.6 seconds not work for me as well. I`m willing to be more lenient with a fully serialzed show that puts in the work each and every episode but if SPN wants both worlds, they have to live with the criticism when they want to pick and choose the rewards from each format, without doing any of the full work.

[Jonesy]

1 hour ago, bearcatfan said:

I just want to state that nearly anyone who adopts a child does not have to care for that child for years to love that child as a child. I dare any of you to say that to an adoptive parent and come away without bruises. 

I agree with you and I think the show has shown well the 3 Dads relationship with all 4 actors selling it well.  And it's refreshing they made Jack a sweetheart instead of a Claire or Krissy brat--he's 2 so its reasonable to be like that.  The whole Jack thing adds a layer to the show and last episode shines because of it.

And the development was fine with Jack and all the boys--their connection works...but if course if you don't like Jack(which i'd argue is the majority here but minority elsewhere) it won't.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Jakes

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

However, everything hinges on the relationships as developed onscreen and how organic and believable one finds them. As such I thought their reactions were way over the top, compared to other characters they have lost even.

I think that's it in a nutshell.  If there had been more relationship development, I would have had no trouble with Sam's line about Jack being their son.  Sam was the first person Jack saw after being born.  He lived with them with very little contact with other people for the first few weeks of his life.  And Sam did at least attempt to show him how to use his powers.  But, then, really, nothing.

[tessathereaper]

On 12/7/2018 at 12:56 PM, juppschmitz said:

To the people who watched the episode, what percentage/how much time of the episode would you say focused on Dean? You know, as a person, his life, and so on rather than how upset/worried was he about Jack/bringing Jack back?

(I'm not even gonna go into how inane the mere thought of the Winchesters bringing back somebody from the dead is after all these years.)

You notice how little Dean and even Sam are mentioned in any of the posts about the episode?  It's because they are almost literally pointless in the episode.  Jensen did a good job acting what he was given, as usual,, but it's probably not worth going out of your way to see.

[Wateroflife]

24 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

You notice how little Dean and even Sam are mentioned in any of the posts about the episode?  It's because they are almost literally pointless in the episode.  Jensen did a good job acting what he was given, as usual,, but it's probably not worth going out of your way to see.

I'm not sure they were exactly pointless to the episode, but if you didn't buy the intended pathos, their responses weren't terribly compelling, even if well acted. I admit, I have rewatched most of this season's episodes just so I could revisit and enjoy the parts I liked, but I haven't bothered to do that for Byzantium and Unhuman Nature. Just didn't think it was worth it.

[sarthaz]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

They didn`t adopt him and Jack is not a child, the situation is a lot more complex than that. However, everything hinges on the relationships as developed onscreen and how organic and believable one finds them. As such I thought their reactions were way over the top, compared to other characters they have lost even.  

On another CW show, the 100, the main character took a child under her wing and raised her for a time so when she acted like, honestly, a psychotic helicopter mom who was willing to let her former friends be slaughtered to protect her daughter, she wasn`t likeable in any way but believable. Supernatural has the revolving door of storytelling, meaning characters like Jack weave in and out of the storyline. However, that makes episodes like this were they get to maximum hand-wringing in 0.6 seconds not work for me as well. I`m willing to be more lenient with a fully serialzed show that puts in the work each and every episode but if SPN wants both worlds, they have to live with the criticism when they want to pick and choose the rewards from each format, without doing any of the full work.

This. I'd buy their fatherly love for Jack if we saw it on screen, but we've barely seen anything like that. Also, Jack is so terribly written (and acted TBH) that he's not a fully-formed character, so it's hard to imagine anyone caring deeply for what amounts to a sack of potatoes with a smile. Kevin and Dean had a relationship, and when he died, I believed that Dean felt it to his core. Same with Charlie. I totally believed him losing all the shits over her death. But Jack? They went fishing that one time in the previous episode, and now it's like losing a son? It's like when they try to convince us Jack's mom is some kind of saint. That was never there. And poor Misha. I know they tried to setup Cas as Jack's de facto father, but Misha's overacting the crap out of those scenes, I assume because it's not there and he knows it. The actors are trying so hard to sell it, but it's not there.

[SueB]

4 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

You notice how little Dean and even Sam are mentioned in any of the posts about the episode?  It's because they are almost literally pointless in the episode.  Jensen did a good job acting what he was given, as usual,, but it's probably not worth going out of your way to see.

Perhaps you missed my posts? I certainly feel a key aspect of the episode was the demonstration of both the development and challenges for both Sam and Dean at this stage in their lives.

5 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

I just want to state that nearly anyone who adopts a child does not have to care for that child for years to love that child as a child. I dare any of you to say that to an adoptive parent and come away without bruises. 

THIS.  If they had just met Jack two episodes ago, I could see where the bonds may not have formed.  But they were already there pre-birth for Cas.  He was betraying TFW for this child before he met him (outside his mother's womb).

It's been 1 1/2 years of fighting in the same foxhole for some seriously BIG moments in the show.  And tons of little moments - like Jack's heaven suggests.  So, I can understand why the boys have felt like they've adopted Jack.  Dean declared him family almost precisely a year ago.  They nearly lost Sam trying to recover both Jack and Mary.  Then they nearly lost Sam again trying to save Jack from Lucifer in the finale.  What they lack in screentime they more than make up for in terms of action (IMO, of course, YMMV).

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean declared him family almost precisely a year ago.  They nearly lost Sam trying to recover both Jack and Mary.  Then they nearly lost Sam again trying to save Jack from Lucifer in the finale.  What they lack in screentime they more than make up for in terms of action (IMO, of course, YMMV).

He has declared Kevin family, too. I`m not certain about Charlie but at least she got the little sister moniker. 

And those "big moments" are exactly my problem. It`s not specific to whatever relationship they have with Jack specifically but more in general. Wheneveran episode wants to wring some angst and pathos from it, they dial everything up to 11. Then little to nothing for several episodes in between, then dialing it up to 11 again for a very special episode. 

The only character I felt a bit bad for in the entire episode was Lily Sunder. Jack, you just know would be back. Ànd it was clear he would remain the saint of purity. Kelly in heaven remains the saint of motherhood. The brothers were all beating their chests and tearing their garments over the "loss of their son". Never felt for a single one of them, not even Dean. Jensen can do a lot but he can`t make me buy into that maudlin soap opera drama. Normally I hate the "boohoo, get over it" scenes on the show but now I`m in front of my screen, saying it myself. To all of them. 

I might have swallowed every single of those scenes a lot better if they dialed it down on all parts. But that can`t happen, otherwise the plot can`t work. The episode solely works on the viewer buying into the angst, it falls apart when one doesn`t.

[MysteryGuest]

Jack was literally minutes old when Sam and Dean meet him for the first time, so they basically have been responsible, along with Mary, et al, for his development.  I can accept their feeling "fatherly" toward him because of this.  The writers have left us to assume an awful lot, but I'm getting used to that.  I look at the Mary situation the same way.  There have been no great reconciliation scenes where they all talk about their feelings, but based on the interactions we see today between them, I'm going to assume things are good there, as well.  I would take those sappy, emotional conversations over a fight scene any day of the week, but obviously the writers disagree.

[trudysmom]

7 hours ago, Jakes said:

And the development was fine with Jack and all the boys--their connection works...but if course if you don't like Jack(which i'd argue is the majority here but minority elsewhere) it won't.

My feelings about Jack and the guys "father/son" dynamic have nothing to do with whether I like Jack.  I do, actually.  I think the character has possibilities, and Alexander does an admirable job.  My problem is the depth of their grief, they want to sell it as a father's grief, but I don't feel that.  The show just hasn't done enough to make me feel that.  Now Cas, maybe, since he was with Kelly and had some kind of connection to Jack before he was born, I can accept his perspective as a father figure.  But Sam and Dean, no I just don't see it.  Little brother, homeless waif, orphaned, clueless kid who needs protecting, yes I get all of that.  And of course Dean feels responsible, because he feels responsible for everyone everywhere.  As others have said there was no tension or suspense in Jack dying because we KNEW he'd be brought back, if not that episode, then soon.  

I love all things Stephen King.  In The Long Walk there's a line "there's a surfeit, even of death".  That's where we are with Supernatural.  It's so commonplace, and so temporary, it's lost all meaning.  It's becoming a joke, which is what I'd hoped would never happen to this show.

[DeeDee79]

29 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

My feelings about Jack and the guys "father/son" dynamic have nothing to do with whether I like Jack.  I do, actually.  I think the character has possibilities, and Alexander does an admirable job.  My problem is the depth of their grief, they want to sell it as a father's grief, but I don't feel that.  The show just hasn't done enough to make me feel that.  Now Cas, maybe, since he was with Kelly and had some kind of connection to Jack before he was born, I can accept his perspective as a father figure.  But Sam and Dean, no I just don't see it.  Little brother, homeless waif, orphaned, clueless kid who needs protecting, yes I get all of that.  And of course Dean feels responsible, because he feels responsible for everyone everywhere.  As others have said there was no tension or suspense in Jack dying because we KNEW he'd be brought back, if not that episode, then soon.  

I love all things Stephen King.  In The Long Walk there's a line "there's a surfeit, even of death".  That's where we are with Supernatural.  It's so commonplace, and so temporary, it's lost all meaning.  It's becoming a joke, which is what I'd hoped would never happen to this show.

Yes to all of this. Jack's death didn't tug at my heartstrings because no one stays dead on this show anymore. The only death that stuck was Crowley and that's only because Mark Sheppard isn't a part of the show anymore. Hell, at least keep Jack dead for the rest of the season and let us wonder if he'll be back or not. Instead they bring him back within 20-30 minutes of him dying. *sigh* Regarding the 3 fathers/son bond I just don't buy it and it has absolutely nothing to do with how I feel about Jack as a character or Alex as an actor. I could maybe buy a little brother bond but that would be stretching it also. The scenes in the last few episodes were the most that we've seen Dean and Jack bond. Cas & Sam have spent most of their time with him telling him how good he is and soothing him when he's upset which is not the same as bonding IMO. I guess I should accept that "tell" rather than "show" is the new normal for storytelling here.

Edited December 11, 2018 by DeeDee79

[MysteryGuest]

I think most of us are in agreement that they've done the big death scene way too often to garner anywhere near the same reaction they used to get.  Even if we can fill in the blanks and create a stronger relationship than we've been shown between these characters, it doesn't take away from the fact that we know they're not going to die.  They need to let Team Free Will get back to saving other people rather than continuously trying to save or resurrect one of their own.

[tessathereaper]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Perhaps you missed my posts? I certainly feel a key aspect of the episode was the demonstration of both the development and challenges for both Sam and Dean at this stage in their lives.

THIS.  If they had just met Jack two episodes ago, I could see where the bonds may not have formed.  But they were already there pre-birth for Cas.  He was betraying TFW for this child before he met him (outside his mother's womb).

It's been 1 1/2 years of fighting in the same foxhole for some seriously BIG moments in the show.  And tons of little moments - like Jack's heaven suggests.  So, I can understand why the boys have felt like they've adopted Jack.  Dean declared him family almost precisely a year ago.  They nearly lost Sam trying to recover both Jack and Mary.  Then they nearly lost Sam again trying to save Jack from Lucifer in the finale.  What they lack in screentime they more than make up for in terms of action (IMO, of course, YMMV).

Yes I did see your posts(not that really agreed with those character development aspects but I've got no problem with you getting what you got out of it), that was a couple of posts as compared to nearly the whole first page barely mentioning Dean or Sam and then after that them mainly being mentioned in the context of how they are like minor side characters in their own show.

Jack isn't adopted, he was "born" a grown man(one who killed his own mother in order to be born after he brainwashed her into having him when she was going to have an abortion), which they seem to barely acknowledge(like they don't acknowledge Sam's ulterior motives for his "acceptance" of Jack but sure do like to keep harping on Dean's very understandable and in fact very sensible mistrust) but of course it "wasn't his fault" somehow.   I could buy Jack as a little brother, not a son, except may be Castiel, given he was with Kelly all that time prior to Jack's "birth".  But not a son, not like Jack is somehow so important he's a "son" of their's.  Jack's too much of a Mary Sue for me to believe it, or really anything, about him emotionally in relation to the other characters.  It doesn't feel real, it feels like you can see the writers fingerprints all over it, it's not organic.

[BabySpinach]

What really chaps my ass is that Jack has been the primary focus of the last three (THREE!) consecutive episodes. Not even Cas has gotten that privilege. And nothing was accomplished by this narrative choice except for endlessly cheap, soapy "feelz." Nothing about this moved the mytharc forward, it was just a bunch of wheel-spinning filler. There's no way that Nougat Boy's tragic woobie illness merited this much screentime over goddamn Michael!Dean. FUCK. The more I think about it, the more mad I am. 

[Cambion]

2 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

What really chaps my ass is that Jack has been the primary focus of the last three (THREE!) consecutive episodes. Not even Cas has gotten that privilege. And nothing was accomplished by this narrative choice except for endlessly cheap, soapy "feelz." Nothing about this moved the mytharc forward, it was just a bunch of wheel-spinning filler. There's no way that Nougat Boy's tragic woobie illness merited this much screentime over goddamn Michael!Dean. FUCK. The more I think about it, the more mad I am. 

ITA.  The Michael!Dean arc is far, far more interesting.  Even if Michael is/was in another vessel the things he is doing to try to evolve the monsters is worthy of a few episodes.  If he succeeds this could change a lot of things and start a whole new round of learning how to deal with what are no longer the same old monsters.  One of the interesting, and nerve-wracking parts of season 7 was figuring out how to kill the levis.  As it was, they spent about 2 seconds on the new and improved Michael monsters with the 'cut the head off everything' strategy.  That was one of the great things about the levis, that last resort didn't immediately work and the boys did some scrambling.  Sometimes it's nice, and certainly interesting, to see the confident heroes taken aback.  And who knows what kind of mutated monsters they could come up with beyond the ones that already fill Earth's mythos.  (Jefferson Starships anyone?)

Anyway, I'm rather ambivalent about Jack now.  I really liked him at the start, and would have enjoyed more of the 'with great power comes great responsibility' trope in the hands of guys who didn't know what the extent of the power was, trying to contain a toddler playing with a machine gun in a crowded room, as it were.  Because that was interesting and did give a foundation for Jack's angst as he learned to cope.  Losing his grace, started to do the same thing for him, learning to cope with the loss.  But I'd have rather seen Jack either learn to be totally human or in some way regain grace - the whole 'it will regenerate' thing is where I thought they might go - and have to relearn his powers and how to control his emotions to use them appropriately instead of constantly from the hip.  You know, some character development 

But, hey, it's all Monday Morning Quarterbacking, after all.  

[Res]

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

What really chaps my ass is that Jack has been the primary focus of the last three (THREE!) consecutive episodes. Not even Cas has gotten that privilege. And nothing was accomplished by this narrative choice except for endlessly cheap, soapy "feelz." Nothing about this moved the mytharc forward, it was just a bunch of wheel-spinning filler. There's no way that Nougat Boy's tragic woobie illness merited this much screentime over goddamn Michael!Dean. FUCK. The more I think about it, the more mad I am. 

Which is why I probably won't be watching live anymore after this week. This isn't my show anymore. It's just cheap ass soap opera drama of secondary characters that will never focus on my favorite for any of his own character development, especially under this regime. Plus, I'm tired of giving them predictable views just because I'm a Jensen fan. 

[tennisgurl]

Well, Jack is certainly a Winchester, he already died and came back in about twenty minutes! You know, I like Jack just fine, and I can understand the My Three Dads stuff with Sam, Dean, and Cas and why they all have this connection with this kid who they've known for as long as he has been alive, but the show has gone super overboard with him. Jack is suddenly such a big huge important character, who gets multiple episodes based around him, or at least major subplots, and he suddenly is super important to all of the main characters, and is talked up as the best person ever, and is a super special once in a millennia magic hybrid, and is just generally all over the place, WAY more than plenty of characters who have been here for much longer, like poor Cas. Honestly, this is probably the most action the guy has gotten all season, while Jack has had HOW many episodes? Again, I dont hate him or anything, but oh my God can we get a break? 

Because of that, his death didnt really have much emotional impact. We all knew he would be fine, and that they would figure out a way to bring him back, so the point of the episode was seeing how he gets back, and not in any kind of real emotion. I just dont know Jack well enough to just be upset about his perspective death, or know his relationships with the guys. The actors did a great job selling the grief, so there was that at least. 

Honestly, the saddest part to me was Dean calling Mary, begging her to talk to him, while she apparently ignores his calls. I mean, damn Mary. Your son calls to tell you that the kid you supposedly care about is dead, he is clearly on the verge of tears, is begging you to call him back, saying how he wants to hear your voice, right after his surrogate son/brother died, and you just...never called back? Saw his name in your phone, and put it on silent to awkwardly hit on AU Bobby some more? Poor Dean, how much must it suck to know that he based his whole life around the memory of this woman he loved and idealized, who doesent actually give a crap about him. No wonder he wants so badly to be a perfect "dad" to Jack. 

I will say, I liked how they handled the resurrection, and bringing Lily back was a smart idea, which also lead to some decent continuity, and gave her story some closure. She was cool to have back, and I also liked Anubis, and him working with Heaven in an eternal office in a magical attic somewhere was a nice touch. I like the idea that Heaven has to work with some of the Old Gods after their many struggles, and the Old Gods are working with them to increase their status. I also liked Anubis himself, he was an interesting character, and I was glad that he seemed somewhat close to his mythological personality. A tough but fair judge of the afterlife, who is uncompromising, but is also sympathetic to humanity, and polite and considerate to the souls he judges. 

Every time I see Kelly now, I just wonder why Nora from Legends of Tomorrow doesent just start blasting people with her magic powers. 

[juppschmitz]

47 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Honestly, the saddest part to me was Dean calling Mary, begging her to talk to him, while she apparently ignores his calls. I mean, damn Mary. Your son calls to tell you that the kid you supposedly care about is dead, he is clearly on the verge of tears, is begging you to call him back, saying how he wants to hear your voice, right after his surrogate son/brother died, and you just...never called back? Saw his name in your phone, and put it on silent to awkwardly hit on AU Bobby some more? Poor Dean, how much must it suck to know that he based his whole life around the memory of this woman he loved and idealized, who doesent actually give a crap about him. No wonder he wants so badly to be a perfect "dad" to Jack. 

This post was the first thing about SPN in a long, long time that elicited any sort emotional response from me. All and any deaths/near-deaths notwithstanding.

[MysteryGuest]

It will be interesting to see if Dean's call to Mary has any more significance than just more filler.  They weren't going to pay Sam Smith to be in the episode, even just a brief, over-the-phone exchange, so they settled for the "phone call" they always fall back on.  Was it really meant to show a continual rift between Mary and her sons, or was it just meant to show Dean's desperate state of mind, which included his desire to speak with his mother at such an emotional time?  If it's only the latter, then again we can point to poor writing which continues to make people despise a character who wasn't even on screen to defend herself.  I'd love to know if this is their true motivation, or if it's just tone deafness on their parts. 

[ILoveReading]

The problem is that if I look past the fluff not even the tell works because none of them them really spent all that much time with Jack.  Sam and Dean's early relationship were both antagonistic.  Sam was manipulative and Dean was hostile and Cas was MIA.  I know the show will never again adress Sam using Jack for his own purposes but that doesn't change that it happened.    In a well written show were Jack was a normal character rather then, a mary sue  the most precious peanut to ever grace the face of the Earth he should have been questioning Sam.  

None of them, other than Dean, and that was one day,  have really spent any quality time with Jack.  Even off screen tell isn't there because there wasn't really a time for it to happen because Jack was MIA or Sam, Dean and or Cas were.

Here is my tumblr post where I expand on this if anyone is interested.   I'm linking because of the discussion of other episodes.

https://crowleygal.tumblr.com/post/180953201221/why-the-dynamics-between-dean-cas-sam-and-jack

I'm still questioning when this supposed "we can't live without you Jack" bond formed.

[Bergamot]

20 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

However, everything hinges on the relationships as developed onscreen and how organic and believable one finds them. As such I thought their reactions were way over the top, compared to other characters they have lost even.  

Exactly, Aeryn!  This is about fictional characters, and whether or not the writers manage to make you as a viewer believe what you see. As Sam said, this is not the first time we have seen them lose someone. When John died, I absolutely believed in the grief we saw in Dean and Sam -- I thought it was one of the most authentic depictions that I had seen of grief for a parent. And when Sam died in Cold Oak, and when Dean was torn apart by the Hell Hound, I absolutely believed in the reaction of each brother to their loss of each other.

When Bobby died, I believed in the intensity of their grief. And again when Kevin died, and then when Charlie died.  And this had nothing to do with how I felt about the character that was being lost -- to be honest I was pretty tired of the characters of both Bobby and Charlie by the time they died, and so wasn't upset about losing them. Yet the grief that resulted from these deaths felt earned to me.

The fact is that, like it or not, the reaction to Jack's death did not feel authentic to me.  And to imply, as Sam did, that this death was somehow worse than all the previous losses they had undergone -- just no. The writers simply failed to convince me of this, and as a result the characters' reactions to Jack's death came across as exaggerated and unconvincing.

Quote

And the development was fine with Jack and all the boys--their connection works...but if course if you don't like Jack(which i'd argue is the majority here but minority elsewhere) it won't.

I don't dislike Jack; he is just not that important to me as a character. And I don't think what the writers have tried to do with him, especially in this episode, has worked very well at all. But since a point was made that this may put me in the "minority", I have to say that I don't care how big the crowds are who line the streets of Twitter or Tumblr or "elsewhere", shouting fulsome praise for the Emperor's new clothes -- if in my opinion, the Emperor is not wearing anything, I'm going to say so, without apologies.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Exactly, Aeryn!  This is about fictional characters, and whether or not the writers manage to make you as a viewer believe what you see. As Sam said, this is not the first time we have seen them lose someone. When John died, I absolutely believed in the grief we saw in Dean and Sam -- I thought it was one of the most authentic depictions that I had seen of grief for a parent. And when Sam died in Cold Oak, and when Dean was torn apart by the Hell Hound, I absolutely believed in the reaction of each brother to their loss of each other.

When Bobby died, I believed in the intensity of their grief. And again when Kevin died, and then when Charlie died.  And this had nothing to do with how I felt about the character that was being lost -- to be honest I was pretty tired of the characters of both Bobby and Charlie by the time they died, and so wasn't upset about losing them. Yet the grief that resulted from these deaths felt earned to me.

The fact is that, like it or not, the reaction to Jack's death did not feel authentic to me.  And to imply, as Sam did, that this death was somehow worse than all the previous losses they had undergone -- just no. The writers simply failed to convince me of this, and as a result the characters' reactions to Jack's death came across as exaggerated and unconvincing.

I don't dislike Jack; he is just not that important to me as a character. And I don't think what the writers have tried to do with him, especially in this episode, has worked very well at all. But since a point was made that this may put me in the "minority", I have to say that I don't care how big the crowds are who line the streets of Twitter or Tumblr or "elsewhere", shouting fulsome praise for the Emperor's new clothes -- if in my opinion, the Emperor is not wearing anything, I'm going to say so, without apologies.

And, for my part, *I* will applaud and support every post or comment like this one as much as I possibly can.

+1,000.

[gonzosgirrl]

Watched the episode last night. Criticisms: I'll just second those who have already listed them. It wasn't awful, but I just didn't care about a single person on the screen. Even Jensen couldn't save that treacly mess for me. And if there was any chance of being emotionally invested in any of it, the editing would have killed it anyway. I don't know who is making these choices to chop and hack the scenes like they do, but they should be fired.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, Bergamot said:

When Bobby died, I believed in the intensity of their grief. And again when Kevin died, and then when Charlie died.  And this had nothing to do with how I felt about the character that was being lost -- to be honest I was pretty tired of the characters of both Bobby and Charlie by the time they died, and so wasn't upset about losing them. Yet the grief that resulted from these deaths felt earned to me.

The fact is that, like it or not, the reaction to Jack's death did not feel authentic to me.  And to imply, as Sam did, that this death was somehow worse than all the previous losses they had undergone -- just no. The writers simply failed to convince me of this, and as a result the characters' reactions to Jack's death came across as exaggerated and unconvincing.

Had to add my support for this. Comparing the loss of this kid they barely know, considering it 'the worst' is just insulting to pretty much every other loss they've suffered. I won't even try to deny that the loss of a child is possibly the worst grief there is - but Jack. Is. Not. Their. Child. They are not his parent, adoptive or biological, and he has spent the majority of his accelerated life away from them, either off finding himself, or in the AU with Mary. Much as I hate her, excluding her from this arc was a bad choice, as she is the only one whose emotional loss I would have even begun to believe in. It was the most manufactured, Tab A/Slot B soap opera writing I've seen on the show to date, and that's saying something. "Liking" Jack has nothing to do with it.

Edited December 11, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

I think the show officially jumped the shark as far as deaths were concerned at the end of season 12.  Killing off everyone was just idiotic, and it was made even worse by the fact that only one of them actually stayed dead.  What was the point of that?  Then they pulled the same crap with Lucifer at the end of last year, and low and behold, Mark P. is back.  I swear the writers have to be laughing about all of the death scenes by this point.  

Did we ever find out exactly what killed Jack, anyway?  He just all of a sudden started coughing up blood, but was there some specific nephilim reason that I missed along the way?

[Wateroflife]

One weird thing about Jack's dying storyline is that Jack himself didn't really seem that bothered he was going to die. Why should we get worked up about it then? He was pretty zen about the whole affair - no fear, no anger, no "I'll miss u guys". He didn't even know if he would go to heaven or someplace else. What did he say - it will be an adventure? 

I know they are playing him as a weak-sauce version of Jeff Bridges in Starman, but he got more worked up when Dean said he couldn't go on a hunt (or that Dean didn't matter as much as killing Michael). This feels like a writing and acting fail. Am I missing something?

Edited December 12, 2018 by Wateroflife

[MysteryGuest]

17 minutes ago, Wateroflife said:

One weird thing about Jack's dying storyline is that Jack himself didn't really seemed that bothered he was going to die. Why should we get worked up about it then? He was pretty zen about the whole affair - no fear, no anger, no "I'll miss u guys". He didn't even know if he would go to heaven or someplace else. What did he say - it will be an adventure? 

I know they are playing him as a weak-sauce version of Jeff Bridges in Starman, but come on. He got more worked up when Dean said he couldn't go on a hunt (or that Dean didn't matter as much as killing Michael). This feels like a writing and acting fail. Am I missing something?

I thought he was pretending to be brave for the sake of Sam, Dean and Cas.  He could see how upset they were.  Plus, he's still rather innocent, so he wouldn't have that built-in fear of death that most adults have.  Add in the Nephilim part, and that's my explanation.

[BoxManLocke]

I may have missed the explanation, but I just don't see how Jack's resurrection solves his problem long term ?

 

The "a nephilim without his grace doesn't belong hence he'll start withering off" problem Rowena explained.

 

Shouldn't he go right back to dying in a few weeks ?

[MysteryGuest]

14 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

The "a nephilim without his grace doesn't belong hence he'll start withering off" problem Rowena explained.

Ah, so that's the part I missed.  Then you're right, what keeps it from happening again?  And I thought his grace would replenish after a bit?  At least that's what we were told.  

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

I may have missed the explanation, but I just don't see how Jack's resurrection solves his problem long term ?

 

The "a nephilim without his grace doesn't belong hence he'll start withering off" problem Rowena explained.

 

Shouldn't he go right back to dying in a few weeks ?

I suspect that the writers will forget their own lore in a few weeks and Jack will be the picture of health for the rest of the season.

[sarthaz]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Ah, so that's the part I missed.  Then you're right, what keeps it from happening again? 

Writer amnesia for the win!

[BoxManLocke]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Ah, so that's the part I missed.  Then you're right, what keeps it from happening again?  And I thought his grace would replenish after a bit?  At least that's what we were told.  

 

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I suspect that the writers will forget their own lore in a few weeks and Jack will be the picture of health for the rest of the season.

 

Either they pretend that Rowena's explanation never happened, that Jack's grace miraculously starts to regenerate now (we were told it might take years), or we get another death storyline.

 

The writers cornered themselves again. It's like they're not even trying.

[Wateroflife]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I thought he was pretending to be brave for the sake of Sam, Dean and Cas.  He could see how upset they were.  Plus, he's still rather innocent, so he wouldn't have that built-in fear of death that most adults have.  Add in the Nephilim part, and that's my explanation.

I guess that's reasonable. I will have to go back and look at his acting more carefully for subtext. He is young, but I imagine he saw a far bit of death while in the Apocalypse World.

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

 

 

Either they pretend that Rowena's explanation never happened, that Jack's grace miraculously starts to regenerate now (we were told it might take years), or we get another death storyline.

 

The writers cornered themselves again. It's like they're not even trying.

Well they already had Rowena being surprised at Jack being Lucifer’s son after she clearly knew about it last season so it’s not the first or the last time that they’ll write themselves into a corner.

[ahrtee]

35 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

I may have missed the explanation, but I just don't see how Jack's resurrection solves his problem long term ?

 

The "a nephilim without his grace doesn't belong hence he'll start withering off" problem Rowena explained.

 

Shouldn't he go right back to dying in a few weeks ?

LILY: The magic I used, as you so sensitively put it, to get revenge for my daughter. You said your nephilim boy-- Jack-- without his angel grace, his human body died? My magic draws power from the soul, the human soul. It could save him.
SAM: You'd give your soul up?
LILY: Not my soul. His.
DEAN: Pass.
LILY: It's not his entire soul, obviously.
SAM: How much of it?
LILY: As long as he's only using it to sustain his body, it won't cost much. He'll never miss it.
DEAN: What are we even talking about? I-It's too late. Jack's dead. His soul's gone, right?
CAS: Maybe not. If Jack is in Heaven, I might be able to pull his soul into his body. It would only be for a few seconds.
LILY: That's all the time I need. If I can open the door, your boy can use my magic to stay alive. Resurrection and a cure. You're welcome.

(emphasis mine).

Not that it makes a lot of (or any) sense, but it seems that she's saying she's using his soul to power the cure.  Though it sounded originally more like it's a battery to keep it going, not a "cure," but that's what she called it.  *sigh*

I guess the idea is that he can keep himself going until his grace regenerates?  

Edited December 12, 2018 by ahrtee

[BoxManLocke]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

LILY: The magic I used, as you so sensitively put it, to get revenge for my daughter. You said your nephilim boy-- Jack-- without his angel grace, his human body died? My magic draws power from the soul, the human soul. It could save him.
SAM: You'd give your soul up?
LILY: Not my soul. His.
DEAN: Pass.
LILY: It's not his entire soul, obviously.
SAM: How much of it?
LILY: As long as he's only using it to sustain his body, it won't cost much. He'll never miss it.
DEAN: What are we even talking about? I-It's too late. Jack's dead. His soul's gone, right?
CAS: Maybe not. If Jack is in Heaven, I might be able to pull his soul into his body. It would only be for a few seconds.
LILY: That's all the time I need. If I can open the door, your boy can use my magic to stay alive. Resurrection and a cure. You're welcome.

(emphasis mine).

Not that it makes a lot of (or any) sense, but it seems that she's saying she's using his soul to power the cure.  Though it sounded originally more like it's a battery to keep it going, not a "cure," but that's what she called it.  *sigh*

I guess the idea is that he can keep himself going until his grace regenerates?  

Thank you, I missed that indeed.

The idea that a piece of soul will be enough to keep a nephilim alive, who is being devoured by supernatural forces, for years when Lily, a human, needed her whole soul to simply keep being young, is huh... interesting.

 

But I guess this is the best we're going to get and is on par with this episode's writing.

 

I'm mostly relieved we're done with this.

[ZennyKenny]

19 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Honestly, the saddest part to me was Dean calling Mary, begging her to talk to him, while she apparently ignores his calls. I mean, damn Mary. Your son calls to tell you that the kid you supposedly care about is dead, he is clearly on the verge of tears, is begging you to call him back, saying how he wants to hear your voice, right after his surrogate son/brother died, and you just...never called back?

Freaking THIS! ^

Mary should have called back before Jack came back. Talk about a missed opportunity to have a genuine heartfelt conversation and relationship growth between Mary & Dean! It's like so many have said; the show writes itself, and yet somehow they keep messing it up.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, BoxManLocke said:

 

 

Either they pretend that Rowena's explanation never happened, that Jack's grace miraculously starts to regenerate now (we were told it might take years), or we get another death storyline.

 

Or Rowena lent him her trusty resurrection-spell-in-the-leg trick (see: Ketch) and he's golden now.

[catrox14]

56 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Freaking THIS! ^

Mary should have called back before Jack came back. Talk about a missed opportunity to have a genuine heartfelt conversation and relationship growth between Mary & Dean! It's like so many have said; the show writes itself, and yet somehow they keep messing it up.

I have a lowkey spec that Mary has been incapacitated or even dead, and that it might end up being Dean or Michael!Dean  who did it on his random visit to see her.  It would certainly parallel Nick killing people because meatsuit reasons.  As much as I hate Mary, I feel like something is amiss here.

[BoxManLocke]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Or Rowena lent him her trusty resurrection-spell-in-the-leg trick (see: Ketch) and he's golden now.

I mean at that point, why don't they use this on every single character ? Would save us the trouble to pretend like we have to be worried in life or death situations.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

I mean at that point, why don't they use this on every single character ? Would save us the trouble to pretend like we have to be worried in life or death situations.

Rowena survived a broken neck and then being literally burned to a crisp. There is no death that I will ever again take seriously on this show, unless and until the actor tells it like it is about the shit writing. Apparently that is the true kiss of death.

Edited December 12, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[fishpan]

Okay quick continuity question.  I know this was all about them averting Jack's death and focusing on what Jack meant to everyone but....where are Maggie and the nameless minions?  

You know the ones that depended on Jack to help them fight the angel war in their dimension. 

Did I miss them all moving out of the bunker?  

 

And where was Mary?  Did they call her?  You know seeing how she supposedly got her mothering groove back last season by becoming 'apoco' mom to Jack.

[FlickChick]

The only time I'll believe ANY DEATH is at the very end of the series finale. Because if it even happens in the last quarter-hour, there's still time to bring him/them/her back.

[FlickChick]

26 minutes ago, fishpan said:

Okay quick continuity question.  I know this was all about them averting Jack's death and focusing on what Jack meant to everyone but....where are Maggie and the nameless minions?  

You know the ones that depended on Jack to help them fight the angel war in their dimension. 

Did I miss them all moving out of the bunker?  

 

And where was Mary?  Did they call her?  You know seeing how she supposedly got her mothering groove back last season by becoming 'apoco' mom to Jack.

Apparently, the AU minions come and go at will of the writer. Trust me, there was enough soap drama without them there to add to it. Regarding Mary, Dean did call in a heart-felt scene to tell her about Jack and express his grief, but - shocker - Mary never called Dean back nor came to see Jack as one would normally do at a wake/funeral.

[ZennyKenny]

Wait so does this mean that the previous episode's syncing of Nick praying to Lucifer and the goo-Terminator rising up was a fake-out? That that was NOT Lucifer, but actually the Empty guardian guy rising up to go get Jack? Because I would very much like that to be so.

 

Did I actually say this twice?? Wow I need a vacation. Sorry!

Edited December 14, 2018 by ZennyKenny

[juppschmitz]

On 12/12/2018 at 4:56 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Rowena survived a broken neck and then being literally burned to a crisp. There is no death that I will ever again take seriously on this show, unless and until the actor tells it like it is about the shit writing. Apparently that is the true kiss of death.

This. The only character I believe is truly gone is Crowley. More's the pity. (Even though Dabb had managed to completely ruin Crowley before finally killing him off. Thank you, Dabb. Not.)

On 11/12/2018 at 2:55 PM, ILoveReading said:

Here is my tumblr post where I expand on this if anyone is interested.   I'm linking because of the discussion of other episodes.

https://crowleygal.tumblr.com/post/180953201221/why-the-dynamics-between-dean-cas-sam-and-jack

Hey, you're Crowley Gal! I'm following you on tumblr :D

It's a small world :D

[Katy M]

31 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

This. The only character I believe is truly gone is Crowley. More's the pity. (Even though Dabb had managed to completely ruin Crowley before finally killing him off. Thank you, Dabb. Not.)

I suspect Mick is dead for good.  Meg, also.  It wouldn't make a lot of sense to recast a dead demon when you could make up a new demon.  It would be weird if Jessica popped up aline, not to mention awkward, so safe to say she'll stay dead.

[juppschmitz]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I suspect Mick is dead for good.  Meg, also.  It wouldn't make a lot of sense to recast a dead demon when you could make up a new demon.  It would be weird if Jessica popped up aline, not to mention awkward, so safe to say she'll stay dead.

Unless the actor is publicly salty, I wouldn't rule anything out. Not with this lot.

Edited December 13, 2018 by juppschmitz

[Ray Adverb]

On 12/6/2018 at 10:06 PM, ZennyKenny said:

So was Nick praying coinciding with the Empty Terminator last week meant to throw us off? I would be absolutely tickled if that WASN'T Lucifer after all!

Yes.  I am pretty sure that was a misdirect.  Which makes me happy.  I am so done with Lucifer existing on this show.