S14.E08 : Byzantium

[BoxManLocke]

OUT OF THE DARKNESS – When Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) join forces with an unexpected ally, the outcome will alter the course of two lives. Meanwhile, Heaven faces an attack from a dark force, driving Castiel to make an enormous sacrifice to make things right.

 

Airdate 2018.12.06

[Katy M]

I don't know about anybody else, but I found it a little hard to get choked up about Jack because I knew he'd be back right quick. TBH, Sam and Dean so hot about getting Jack back makes them seem like real jerks that they didn't even try to do anything for Kevin.

As much as I don't care about the Heaven story, or resurrections, I did find this episode fairly interesting. When I first saw all the black goo, I thought Heaven was being invaded by Leviathan. Which would have been weird. And completely random. But The Empty wanting Jack actually made complete sense.

When Sam asked Dean if they should just leave Jack in the morgue, I screamed "YES." In my head anyway. I do have neighbors after all. I'm glad Dean admits that their deals and whatnot do not have happy endings. Yet, they went ahead anyway. Because apparently Jack is their kid. Did Mary ever call back?

IMO, the whole Anubis thing was just annoying. In SPN verse, apparently good and bad deeds get weighed to see which way you're going. And apparently one good deed at the end is all you need? Interesting.

I liked that they ended up having a bigger reason to bring Jack back than just Jack. Although, I'm not really sure that affected anything at all. And, is this soul thing going to have any ramifications? Will the Shadow come back for Cas or will it end up being like the consequences on a global scale that I am still waiting for.

[patty1h]

Exactly, @Katy M,  Being dead on Supernatural means nothing.  This show has got to stop bringing people back - after a while, you just don't care any more.  Like tonight, there was no emotional investment because any frequent viewer already knew that Jack was not going to really die.  Then, they bring back Naomi and that other female whose been on the show a couple times already.    All of these recurring "dead" characters popping up again just bore me.

For one hot second, I thought that that white haired actress was Helen Mirren, then at second glance, I saw it was movie icon Veronica Cartwright.   Nice to see Veronica.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, patty1h said:

Then, they bring back Naomi and that other female whose been on the show a couple times already.

Do you mean the other angel, Duma?  I don't think she ever died.  So, she's fine.  Or Kelly?  well, she's dead, but she's in Heaven which is what's supposed to happen to dead people and she stayed in Heaven, so that's also fine.

[BoxManLocke]

lol yeah, the stupidly quick and anti-climatic death of Jack kiiiiiinda gave away that he was going to be back fairly quickly.

 

Like you @Katy M, I wasn't bored. I thought it was utterly ridiculous, mind you. That's just how the show is most of the time now. Like the episode dealing with bringing someone back from the dead for the umpteenth time, like the bunker being completely empty again, like Sam screaming RESURRECTION minutes after Jack died peacefully as if he hadn't learned anything, like the solution to the brothers' problem being offered to them on a silver platter and neatly tied up into a little bow (throwaway character willing to sacrifice herself, the empty attacking and making saving Jack the only convenient choice, etc).

 

It wasn't good, but it worked, mostly because there was no bloat. No faceless hunters, no Mary, no Nick/Lucifer. As long as we get these kind of episodes I'm okay to keep watching, but I know that won't last, unfortunately.

 

Anyway, now that we're done with this waste of time (Castiel might die at some point, wooo I'm scared !), we can get back to Michael. Curious to see how they'll try to salvage that plot with the amount of episodes left and all the crap left to deal with.

Edited December 7, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, BoxManLocke said:

like Sam screaming RESURRECTION minutes after Jack died peacefully as if he hadn't learned anything

I've become convinced that when you die and come back, each time you lose a bit of the part of the brain that allows you to learn from past mistakes.  It's the only thing that makes any sense.  I would be down for the last couple of episodes about them getting that back and how that impacts the rest of their lives.  Which will be short, because they'll get killed and not bring each other back:)  JK.

And, yes, you reminded me, we now know for sure that Michael definitely isn't in Dean.  Unless they're just also numb to news that should be big, but I doubt it.

[trudysmom]

I like that the actress playing Lily actually seemed to have studied the original Lily, her mannerisms were much the same.  I liked the 'getting loaded' part with the 3 guys, just because I like seeing them smile and laugh.  Beyond that, this episode was a big ole snooze fest.  I just didn't care that Jack was dying, dead, not dead any more.   Lily got into heaven to see her daughter after all, so yay I guess.  When it ended I sighed and said I remember when this was a really good show. 

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

IMO, the whole Anubis thing was just annoying. In SPN verse, apparently good and bad deeds get weighed to see which way you're going. And apparently one good deed at the end is all you need? Interesting.

Unless a Rogue Reaper steps in, I guess.

More Soapernatural this week, only with Castiel making a Dean-like deal now and Jack agreeing to keep it a secret from the brothers.

Wake me up when they decide to bring back the Michael!Dean storyline-which should be next week if this show had a showrunner(s) who was interested in writing for it's lead actor(S!), and not just his pet side characters/actors who he(they) wished were the leads, instead of the ones that are, in fact, the leads.

We should get Michael!Dean back next week if the showrunner(s) of this show actually DO remember who the lead actors/main characters on this show still are-but yeah, that's a HUGE! IF we're talking about there.

This week was the Jack and Castiel Show, whereas last week was the Jack and Nick/Lucifer Show, while I continue to wonder if I'm EVER going to be able to truly love another episode of this show before it ends.

[Bergamot]

I liked Anubis and his abacus! I thought he was pretty cool. And I kind of liked what he said about how it is not him or God that makes the decision when it comes to the final judgment of each individual, but that we each make that decision ourselves with the choices we make. As for Lily Sunder being able to change her fate with her final choice to help them, it worked for me, and I found it a satisfying end to her story.

One thing I didn't get, or maybe I missed something. But if all angels go to the Empty in the end anyway, what was the big sacrifice that Cas made by saying he would go to the Empty? Just the fact that he was ready to go when the Empty wanted him? Would he have been the one to decide that for himself anyway? I don't get it.

Lots of drama with Jack, but basically there didn't seem much of a point to it all, since he ended up in the same place he started. Minus part of his soul, of course. I guess maybe that will cause a problem later. Probably nothing permanent though, I would guess, considering the way things work on the show now. And apparently Lily was able to get her heavenly reward with just a shred of her soul remaining, so I'm sure he will be able to join his mother in the end.

[Lady Calypso]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't know about anybody else, but I found it a little hard to get choked up about Jack because I knew he'd be back right quick. TBH, Sam and Dean so hot about getting Jack back makes them seem like real jerks that they didn't even try to do anything for Kevin.

Yeah, I'm a Jack fan but I knew with him dying in the first two minutes of the episode that he'd be right back, so there was no true tension with me.

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

As much as I don't care about the Heaven story, or resurrections, I did find this episode fairly interesting. When I first saw all the black goo, I thought Heaven was being invaded by Leviathan. Which would have been weird. And completely random. But The Empty wanting Jack actually made complete sense.

I pretty much knew it was The Empty when it started chasing Jack, but I assumed it was partly Lucifer who found a way out and was chasing Jack, or that Lucifer would show up.

I didn't hate the episode was I was frustrated watching a lot of it. Again, they focused on the characters that matter to me plus a few guest stars, but not too many guest stars. It just feels like these characters are written for the plot without considering their history over the past fourteen seasons (and no amount of "I know we've been through this before...BUT...." doesn't work). And that's disappointing, because I like these characters and want them to make smart choices. 

It was nice to see Kelly again. I don't care about the angel stuff at all but I didn't mind seeing a different side to Heaven, one that isn't really shown. 

Cas sacrificing himself for a plot saved for later in the season? And not telling the brothers? 

Anubis basically is admitting that their world is essentially The Good Place's version of who goes where. 

Essentially, I'm treasuring episodes like this because I know Nickifer, Mary, Ketch, AU Bobby and various other hunters will show up at some point, characters that I don't like. At least this episode focused on the three main characters and the new kid on the block (Jack).

2 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

One thing I didn't get, or maybe I missed something. But if all angels go to the Empty in the end anyway, what was the big sacrifice that Cas made by saying he would go to the Empty? Just the fact that he was ready to go when the Empty wanted him? Would he have been the one to decide that for himself anyway? I don't get it.

I'm not completely certain, but from what Cas told The Empty at the end, he'd go NOW with it instead of "eons" down the road (though why The Empty can't assume that Cas won't just die next week or something is beyond me). But then The Empty said that it would wait until the perfect moment when Cas got a sliver of happiness before taking it all away and that just made me go "huh?". So I guess it's more about the Empty still wanting revenge on Cas and....I guess is willing to let Jack go now to torture Cas in the Empty later on.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

One thing I didn't get, or maybe I missed something. But if all angels go to the Empty in the end anyway, what was the big sacrifice that Cas made by saying he would go to the Empty? Just the fact that he was ready to go when the Empty wanted him? Would he have been the one to decide that for himself anyway? I don't get it.

Yes, the Empty can come for him whenever he wants and Cas has to go willingly.  And, sure Cas could decide that himself by stabbing himself with an angel blade, but he probably wasn't going to do that.

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

I pretty much knew it was The Empty when it started chasing Jack, but I assumed it was partly Lucifer who found a way out and was chasing Jack, or that Lucifer would show up.

I actually thought when Jack died he would go the Empty and Lucifer would be awake and something would happen between the two of them.  I was wrong, obviously.

[BoxManLocke]

6 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

One thing I didn't get, or maybe I missed something. But if all angels go to the Empty in the end anyway, what was the big sacrifice that Cas made by saying he would go to the Empty? Just the fact that he was ready to go when the Empty wanted him? Would he have been the one to decide that for himself anyway? I don't get it.

 

Yeah that makes no sense to me. It's still a way better deal than dying right now.

 

"No I won't kill you right now, I'll do it after you've experienced more happiness". Huh... thanks ?

 

I guess that's a way for the writers to set up their AMAZING season finale cliffhanger. Until Cass comes back three episodes in season 15.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

). And that's disappointing, because I like these characters and want them to make smart choices. 

Me, too.  That's why I always get so mad when they do stupid crap.  Demon deals, angel possession tricking, sending Cas into Heaven for Cas, using soul power (because I know that's not going to be good unless it's not going to be mentioned again), letting Lucifer out of the cage.  They just make stupid choice after stupid choice.  Again, like they are incapable of learning.  Maybe Sam should have taken one of those decision-making classes at Stanford. 

[Jonesy]

Someone I heard thinks if Cas goes full human that he'd end up escaping the Empty deal.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Someone I heard thinks if Cas goes full human that he'd end up escaping the Empty deal.

I don't know about that.  Jack was apparently full on human if he could die from a cough and the Empty still came for him.

On another note, an angel died in this episode, which according to the numbers given to us in Funeralia, we are down to an even 10.  Not including Michael, of course.  So, I assume, we'll see dozens of them getting into a fight soon.

[bethy]

I was mostly bored by this episode. Spells and deals and angelic dead mothers have been so done on this show. I had a brief hope that Cas would actually make a real sacrifice for Jack, but, of course, they couldn’t/wouldn’t do that. 

Cas laughing during the wake was jarring to me. Have we ever seen Cas laugh? It was so odd to me.

And the use of the account along with tallying up points RIGHT AFTER a Good Place episode felt . . . derivative.

[ZennyKenny]

Ok right off the bat, this episode is MUCH more interesting than I thought it was going to be. I wasn't very hopeful when watching the first few minutes (SNORE), but mercifully that ended and the rest of the plot began.

I don't know why, but the personification of the Empty was legit terrifying. Maybe it was just the jittery mannerisms combined with the almost childlike joy of the idea of others suffering. But it worked for me.

I still don't really understand the mechanics of using a "small" piece of Jack's soul to bring him back. Does it get burned up or something?

Words cannot express how much I HATE it when people keep secrets from each other on this show (btw, my official theory is that the Empty will return for Cas's soul for this season's finale cliffhanger).

So was Nick praying coinciding with the Empty Terminator last week meant to throw us off? I would be absolutely tickled if that WASN'T Lucifer after all!

Finally, whichever one of you worked that spell that prevented Nick's storyline from appearing in this episode, THANK YOU!! 

Edited December 7, 2018 by ZennyKenny

[bettername2come]

4 minutes ago, bethy said:

Cas laughing during the wake was jarring to me. Have we ever seen Cas laugh? It was so odd to me.

I immediately said "That's not Cas, that's Misha."

 I really liked Cas in this one, especially because he immediately tried to go after Sam all "Your brother's in pain." I love a good Sam and Cas moment. And Sam looked very attractive tonight with his grief and ax-breaking.

I do love Jack, so I'm glad he's alive, but if we've learned anything from Harry Potter, it's that splitting your soul into pieces is a bad idea.

[ahrtee]

From Appointment in Samarra:

DEAN: Well, is there any way that you could, uh, I don't know, hack the hell part off?

DEATH: Dean, Dean, Dean. What do you think the soul is? Some pie you can slice? The soul can be bludgeoned, tortured, but never broken. Not even by me.

[tennisgurl]

48 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Anubis basically is admitting that their world is essentially The Good Place's version of who goes where. 

 

*Reads this seasons scripts* This is the Bad Place!

[Ninamags]

Aww, I wanted to see Lilly reunite with her daughter. That must have been really special. 😭

Did Amanda direct the episode? I missed the credits.

it was a nice surprise to see Mrs Routh. She's great. Like her with the Legends as well. 

Well I guess the moment at the end  when they were all together eating a burger was a pretty happy moment for all involved. I guess it would be too soon to take the angel  😛😛. 

 

Sam and Deans reactions when Jack died didn't really ring true for me though. They've known the kid what, a year? A year and a half? ( I honestly don't even remember) so them  going all angry and emotional when he died was A slight exaggeration.  

They (and us as the audience) didn't EARN that reaction. Honestly,  we barely know the kid.

I got more emotional when Anubis said Lilly could reunite with her daughter. 

It was a good episode overall. Glad no Mary or Nick were there. 

[BoxManLocke]

49 minutes ago, Ninamags said:

Sam and Deans reactions when Jack died didn't really ring true for me though. They've known the kid what, a year? A year and a half? ( I honestly don't even remember) so them  going all angry and emotional when he died was A slight exaggeration.  

They (and us as the audience) didn't EARN that reaction. Honestly,  we barely know the kid.

I got more emotional when Anubis said Lilly could reunite with her daughter.

 

Everything about Jack was rushed after season 13's midseason finale.

 

It's like the second they found out the character was received positively by the fandom, they scrambled to prop him up like crazy, making him connect with as many characters as possible, make him a hero, make it so that he never screws up and that everybody instantly falls in love with him.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Jack is a great character and the best long-term addition to the show since Crowley, but they came really close to ruining him.

 

The silver lining is that we're done with this rushed storyline of his so there's finally time to let the character breathe a little.

[Lemuria]

14 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

The silver lining is that we're done with this rushed storyline of his so there's finally time to let the character breathe a little

Oh, you cockeyed optimist, you. 🤪 I have little doubt that he will have his little nougat fingers into everything. 

And Cas...Really?  Because keeping secrets has always worked out so well up to now. 

[Female83]

It wasn't a bad episode. 

[ahrtee]

I spent most of the episode trying to figure out what the hell was going on, and/or *why* things were happening, and not much made sense to me.  OTOH, wondering did keep me occupied, and for the first time all season I actually watched the entire episode without wandering out of the room or picking up a book when I got bored, so that's a win, I guess.  (As I said once before, they've set a pretty low bar :) )

I did almost tune out at the first few minutes, because all the Drama and Angst of Jack's deathbed scene was making me kind of nauseous, but I figured I'd see how they worked their way out of it.  

1 hour ago, Ninamags said:

Sam and Deans reactions when Jack died didn't really ring true for me though. They've known the kid what, a year? A year and a half? ( I honestly don't even remember) so them  going all angry and emotional when he died was A slight exaggeration.  

Actually, it was much less than a year, because Jack spent most of season 13 in the AU, bonding with Mary (who, no, didn't bother to call, much less show up for Jack's funeral...)  I suppose she'll show up later saying something like "I was out on a hunt and didn't have cell service.  Besides, he's alive again so I didn't miss anything, did I?"  And none of the AU hunters seemed to be there, either, despite the fact that he fought with them.  Oh well.

My main questions/issues:

I thought what made Nephilim so powerful/special was that they had both a human soul *and* angelic grace.  Remove the grace, and you're left with human.  (That's what happened to Cas when his grace was removed, except he didn't even have a human soul, which, never mind....) 

In any event, Jack - Grace = Human, and of  no interest to The Empty, because he/it only collects angels (didn't the original description include demons, too?)  So there was no reason for the Cryptkeeper to hunt down Jack.  And considering how many times Chuck resurrected Cas, you'd think the Empty would have a revolving door with his name on it.  

And didn't he actually *kick* Cas out because he was causing too much trouble?  (TBH, I wasn't paying that much attention at the time because Misha's OTT performance was too distracting) but it seems to me Cas didn't "escape" from the Empty but was turned loose.  So why should the Keeper be so mad at him now and so eager to get him back?  And why should getting him "soon" or "in a millennia" make a difference to immortal beings?  

I'm not going to go into the stupidity of Cas making a deal (again) (and then hiding it from the Winchesters), of Sam trying to do something stupid to bring Jack back (again), of Sam even thinking of calling Lily (after the most powerful witch in the world, with the power of the Book of the Damned etc., couldn't do anything.)  After all, why should they need an expert on angels when they actually *have* an angel on  hand?  Couldn't Cas read Kevin's translation of the angel tablet, even if not the original?  

There were way too many hand-wave moments and glaring plotholes for me, but (as I said) it did keep me watching.  And Nickifer was nowhere in sight, so that's a big win for me!

Edited December 7, 2018 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

Nothing in this episode made any sense. I just almost don't care anymore.

I give Alex Calvert credit for trying to do his best with playing the most treacly shitty writing this show has seen in a long fucking time.

I have no idea what was up with Dean. His characterization was all over the place and none of it felt genuine. I can't decide if that's because it's Jensen playing Michael pretending to be Dean. I mean why would Dean ever say "we make a bonfire".  He would simply say "We give Jack a hunter's funeral".  The end. 

Why could Cas send Jack back to Earth but he couldn't heal anyone on Earth? 

Jack is the biggest fucking Mary Sue this show has ever had.  Good grief.  

Why did they make the Empty Keeper such a squirrelly scaredy cat yet evil? Nonsensical. 

Just a big mess IMO. 

[BoxManLocke]

31 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Oh, you cockeyed optimist, you. 🤪 I have little doubt that he will have his little nougat fingers into everything.

Interesting, I'm actually afraid the exact opposite will happen and that they'll relegate him to a D-tier character because there's just so much stuff to cover and the Michael storyline has barely started.

Also at some point they're going to have to bring back Mary, Bobby, Lucifer and the faceless hunters, among others. UGH.

 

Anyway good luck with that mess writers, you brought this on yourselves.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

From Appointment in Samarra:

DEAN: Well, is there any way that you could, uh, I don't know, hack the hell part off?

DEATH: Dean, Dean, Dean. What do you think the soul is? Some pie you can slice? The soul can be bludgeoned, tortured, but never broken. Not even by me.

I mean why would canon matter to this current regime....

[SueB]

Well Jack is a full-blown Winchester now.  He's been resurrected and is now keeping a really important secret from his family members (although it's Cas' secret... still Jack is keeping it).  

Disorganized initial thoughts

Sarcasm aside, I really liked the episode.  It was surprisingly more emotionally intimate than I expected.  I mean in terms of the boys reactions.  Dean STILL feels like the "Dad" of the bunch.  Even though they were all going through the 'loss of a child' feelings, Dean still felt like he was so much more ... IDK.. experienced and Cas and Sam looked to him for what to do. And Sam's grief punched me in the feels.  His pain felt palpable when he couldn't even build a funeral pyre.  Dean rushing after him thinking "Stop Sammy from making a deal!" was classic Winchester 101.  And in the meantime, Cas' whole body just felt like it was in pain.  Really, all three did a great job of showing in-character grief response. And Dean's decision to get loaded and have a wake for Jack around the kitchen table.  PERFECT.  

And of course Dean was the one to call Mary.  I'm glad they showed that little moment. It's tough to keep Mary part of the family and not have the actress on screen.  The approach worked for me.

As for The Empty.  Evil can be boring -- psychotic evil -- well that's just f*cking terrifying.  And that's what the empty feels like to me.  Psychotic evil.  Erica Cerra (Duma) did a FANTASTIC job.  As did Amanda Tapping.  Naomi is still Naomi no matter WHAT is going on.  Ruthless and cruel towards Castiel.  I swear I practically hiss when she shows up.

Veronica Cartwright as older Lily Sumners was very good.  She really FELT like the older version of the younger character.  I suspected she was making a sacrifice in the end.  It's very true to the Supernatural storyline that the influence of Sam and Dean results in someone's redemption.   And I think it WAS a worthy redemption consistent with the show ethos.  Remember when Mrs Tran offered her soul?  How Mr Peanut's boss said that it was worth more because it was all she had.  Lily apparently KNEW that helping the boys would be the end of her and did it anyway.  She wasn't getting any reward -- she thought she would then just go to Hell.  That's what makes it such a worthy sacrifice to change the math on the abacus.  

I LOVED the consistency of Jack's character.  Of course he went straight to Kelly's.  I was really glad to see that moment. I was shocked at how quickly he died but I also liked that choice.  Death is more painful when it's sudden.  The boys were NOT ready. 

Unsettling bits:
- Implications of Jack losing a bit of his soul -- I hope Lily was telling the truth.
- Was that psychotic evil "Shadow" the Terminator-in-the-goo from the previous week or are they two different entities?
- Oh Cas, Cas, Cas. A noble sacrifice.  Not just for Jack but for Heaven as well.  This is going to end in tears.  Seems to me the Winchesters will have to figure out how to box up the Empty now.  I keep hearing Billy talking about the fragility of the multi-verse construct in my head.  Team Free Will really does seem to stomp their size 13 boots all over the natural order.

Looking forward to a rewatch tomorrow night.  

[Casseiopeia]

42 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

After all, why should they need an expert on angels when they actually *have* an angel on  hand?

That made me LOL...so true.

I would rant but I think everyone has covered it.

[juppschmitz]

4 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

"No I won't kill you right now, I'll do it after you've experienced more happiness". Huh... thanks ?

:DDDDDD *wipes away tears of laughter*

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Ninamags said:

Sam and Deans reactions when Jack died didn't really ring true for me though. They've known the kid what, a year? A year and a half? ( I honestly don't even remember) so them  going all angry and emotional when he died was A slight exaggeration.  

SAME! So overblown and fell completely flat for me

[BabySpinach]

Well, at least it looks like we're finally done with the melodramatic moping over Tuberculosis Sue. Of course, now that it's resolved, this entire story of Jackie-poo's sickies just feels like a giant waste of time. It would have been much more elegant if Jack's subplot had something to do with Michael, just to keep it all under one mytharc umbrella. But the writers instead chose to go on a random tangent that had nothing to do with the (apparent) central story of the season. I hate how they plot their seasons. No interconnections, shallow "feelsy" character interactions, a complete dearth of any meaty or serious drama, tons of filler where there should be development and intrigue. Scattering a little hint every other episode is not enough; there's no actual, substantial STORY there yet. 

This was basically another installment of Nougatnatural. The supposed main characters did nothing but revolve around him and talk about him. No hint of Michael, because the quota for the one interesting plot this season had already been filled by last week's episode. 14.09 had better knock my goddamn socks off (LOL, as if...). 

It's an interesting idea for the Empty to want to claim Cas when he's at his happiest and most unsuspecting. I'm intrigued as to what will be made of it. But the threat of Cas' death is a complete non-issue by now. We know that he's coming back no matter what, so there's no real tension on that front. 

Gotta love how death is literally just a pit stop nowadays as we casually cut straight to the dead person's afterlife in the same episode. Of course Jack wasn't going to stay gone. He's the fan-girl magnet and the purest cinnamon roll there ever was, so I felt nothing when he (temporarily) kicked the bucket. Though I was disturbed at how eager they all were to bring him back. Flouting the rules of death tends to screw things up for the worse, but since it's precious Nougat Sue I guess it was totally acceptable.

I wish the writers cared as much about Sam and Dean's emotional journeys as they did about Jack's. He's got three doting father figures who would pull him from the clutches of death itself, everyone else falling at his feet in praise, heartfelt and unconditionally loving meetings with his dead mom AND his grandparents. He's the most spoiled character this show has ever had. 

Some stuff I liked: the scene with Sam, Cas, and Dean drinking. Even without audible dialogue, their chemistry together was palpable. Gosh, I wish we had a show just about them--oh wait. I enjoyed Anubis. Not gratingly obnoxious or smug, very matter-of-fact, easy-going. The actress playing the Empty was quite good, twitchy and creepy without needing a distracting accent. And Dean was the cautious skeptic and the one who, once again, convinced someone to do a selfless deed against their usual inclinations. Meredith Glynn seems to truly understand him and the effortless magnetism he wields.

Dean's hard refusal to make a deal was a nice bit of character continuity, though it jarringly contradicted their overall attitude toward resurrecting Jack. Dean was also the only one to accept Jack as permanently gone (which is a healthier mindset, imo). 

There were a lot of good elements here, but the narrative focus, as usual, did not grab me. I want a meaty story for Michael!Dean. Given that Dean's one of the actual main characters, that's a pretty low bar that is still not being met.

Edited December 7, 2018 by BabySpinach

[flyinghigh]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

From Appointment in Samarra:

DEAN: Well, is there any way that you could, uh, I don't know, hack the hell part off?

DEATH: Dean, Dean, Dean. What do you think the soul is? Some pie you can slice? The soul can be bludgeoned, tortured, but never broken. Not even by me.

Exactly  what I was thinking when this whole pieces of soul conversation was happening!!

[trudysmom]

SueB, I loved reading your thoughts, but it was as if you watched a different show than I saw.  Your positive perspective is admirable, but I keep comparing what I see now with the show, the characters that drew me in and made me love this show years ago, and it's like 2 different shows.  Even Dean couldn't save this crapfest this time.  Nothing felt real or natural. 

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

After all, why should they need an expert on angels when they actually *have* an angel on  hand?  Couldn't Cas read Kevin's translation of the angel tablet, even if not the original?

Because Cas had to read it in a book to find out that angels leave behind a piece of their grace when they leave a vessel.  He apparently didn't know that Nephilim always kill their mothers when being born or he wouldn't have gone along with killing Lily's daughter.   He may be an angel, but he's not an expert on them.  As far as reading the translation, yes, if Crowley could do that, Cas ought to be able to.  I guess.  

[Bobcatkitten]

There were things I liked. I thought Jared especially did a good job with his emotions last night. And them eating nougat was the best thing ever (even if it was J2M).

I also LOVED seeing Kelly again and her reuniting with Jack. That was unexpected and great. 

I get the Empty wanting Jack and liked them tying it together. And Castiel is now officially a Winchester since he is lying and hiding stuff. 

 

But man. Not having Billie in this episode was such a waste. I don't need another weird character. Give me one I know and love in an episode where it completely makes sense. 

And I agree with everyone that I really felt nothing when Jack died. I mean heck I knew he'd be back in 30 minutes. That has to stop. It's just stupid now. 

I can't believe they were fine with giving up part of Jack's sole. Unintended consequences will definitely bite them in the ass. As always. 

[sigmaforce86]

I really liked parts of this and I think it comes down to the guys and their friendship, watching that drinking segment I got the impression that it was real (OK maybe not the booze but the rest).  It was like the director and script had a vague description of the scene: "The guys laugh and bond" so knowing there was no dialog audible to us they're just Jared, Jensen & Mischa hanging out talking about their kids and their friends and the last practical joke one played on the other.  I also like that Jack's heaven was just an extension of hanging out with the guys eating burgers and learning things.

I don't get though how these guys can be so smart and so dumb at the same time.  Anubis laid it out for them, he was very specific when he said the measurement was the persons good and bad deeds at the moment of death   How did none of them pick up on that huge clue and then think to ask, since Lily wasn't at the moment of death right then, could her future deeds swing things toward more white beads?  It made for a cute final scene but it was anvil droppingly obvious at the time which forced the viewer to either think the boys were being incredibly dumb and obtuse or we had to fill in that blank with our own story (something like, maybe they were to upset to think clearly).

[Bergamot]

11 hours ago, Ninamags said:

Sam and Deans reactions when Jack died didn't really ring true for me though. They've known the kid what, a year? A year and a half? ( I honestly don't even remember) so them  going all angry and emotional when he died was A slight exaggeration.  

They (and us as the audience) didn't EARN that reaction. Honestly,  we barely know the kid.

I agree, but let's face it, from now on, there is no way anything in the universe will ever be allowed to be more important to the main characters than Jack's health and happiness. Apparently, after it was established that Jack was not like Lucifer, all the writers could come up with for the character was to make him the purest, most innocent and lovable person that has ever existed, and the object of everyone's love and concern. Characters in children's books have more depth and complexity. Sorry, but Jack is so paper thin as a character that they literally could replace the actor with a cute, fluffy little puppy and it would make no difference. I am serious. Everyone could lavish love and attention and care on Jack Puppy, and he could love them back and make them happy and make them feel good about themselves for taking care of him. They could take him for rides in the car and teach him how to do things, and pet him and tell him what a good puppy he is.

 

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

And didn't he actually *kick* Cas out because he was causing too much trouble?  (TBH, I wasn't paying that much attention at the time because Misha's OTT performance was too distracting) but it seems to me Cas didn't "escape" from the Empty but was turned loose.  So why should the Keeper be so mad at him now and so eager to get him back?  And why should getting him "soon" or "in a millennia" make a difference to immortal beings? 

Good points! The only thing I can think of is that the Keeper of the Empty has gone insane. Anyone sent to the Empty was not supposed to be suffering, they were just supposed to be existing in a state of total unawareness for all eternity -- the Keeper described it as being "asleep", didn't he? (If I am remembering correctly -- I wasn't paying much attention either!) But Jack managed to wake Cas up, so that he was wandering around the Empty in an awake state, and having to interact with someone who was awake was so traumatic to the Keeper that he/she/it went completely insane and now wants everyone to suffer. That's just my fanwank though; I really do not believe that the writers put that much thought into it. Their lack of thought and effort is becoming more obvious and egregious all the time, and this is probably just another example.

 

5 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I enjoyed Anubis. Not gratingly obnoxious or smug, very matter-of-fact, easy-going.

I liked him too! I also liked his office, which is apparently inside a big clock tower, and the way it looked with all the file cabinets and messy piles of paper. So refreshing after the antiseptic hallways of Heaven. I guess the angels wanted Anubis to work for them, but were unable to force him to move into a clean white cubicle and digitize all his work. Good for you, Anubis! You keep using your abacus! :-)

 

5 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

And Dean was the cautious skeptic and the one who, once again, convinced someone to do a selfless deed against their usual inclinations. Meredith Glynn seems to truly understand him and the effortless magnetism he wields.

Dean's hard refusal to make a deal was a nice bit of character continuity, though it jarringly contradicted their overall attitude toward resurrecting Jack. Dean was also the only one to accept Jack as permanently gone (which is a healthier mindset, imo). 

Very good observations, BabySpinach!  Dean was very Dean-like here. I did notice and approve of the fact that he was the one who convinced Lily Sunder to help -- that really is one of Dean's strengths. Also his relationship with Jack is frankly the only thing that works for me in terms of enabling me to think of Jack as a real person. The way Sam and Cas act toward Jack is so exaggerated and over the top that it just comes across as bizarre to me -- and sorry, writers, it does NOT feel to me like the way people act with their kids, no matter how many times you say it is.  Dean, on the other hand, is so real in his interactions with Jack that he can make Jack real for me too.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Bergamot

[Pondlass1]

I must have a heart that's two sizes too small.  I cannot relate to all the moping over Jack I think the emotion scenes were overdone and took up way too much time.  Especially as we knew Jack would be just fine after the next commercial break because he's a semi-regular now.  Had he been a one shot guest star - there would never have been a spell.  How can you invest emotions when you know there's always a spell out there somewhere to put everything right for a fav character.

However the episode was watchable with well-acted side characters.  I especially liked the eye patch lady and invested more in her sorrow than consumption Jack's.  And I want more of that awesome cluttered watch tower.  Why can't heaven be more interesting than just stark white corridors and business suits.

Most of the recent episodes have been watchable. They just don't make much sense.  Arc episodes are almost the same as stand alone MoTW episodes these days. Nothing relates back to what went before. 

Where are the AU hunters?  I don't care about them, but it's odd they are not even mentioned especially as much time was devoted to Sam the Chief running himself ragged sending them out on hunts.  Suddenly they've all exited the building and no one even noticed.  

Continuity is not a strong point with these writers.

The binge wake rang true for me - yeah, I can see that happening.  (Dean's liver must be supernatural. )  

[Triskan]

I dunno why but I've always liked Heaven storylines, I think they offer a lot of opportunities, and I did like this one as well ! 

[bethy]

1 hour ago, sigmaforce86 said:

It was like the director and script had a vague description of the scene: "The guys laugh and bond" so knowing there was no dialog audible to us they're just Jared, Jensen & Mischa hanging out talking about their kids and their friends and the last practical joke one played on the other.

This is exactly what bothered me about that scene. To me the three actors sitting around talking and laughing about their lives doesn’t have a place in-show even if there isn’t sound. Cas, the character, doesn’t laugh like that - or at all. It took me completely out of the show and a good director would have had them tone it down. As much as I appreciate the relationship among the actors, sometimes I think TPTB let them get away with stuff on screen that they shouldn’t.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, bethy said:

This is exactly what bothered me about that scene. To me the three actors sitting around talking and laughing about their lives doesn’t have a place in-show even if there isn’t sound. Cas, the character, doesn’t laugh like that - or at all. It took me completely out of the show and a good director would have had them tone it down. As much as I appreciate the relationship among the actors, sometimes I think TPTB let them get away with stuff on screen that they shouldn’t.

My only wank on this is that maybe they are trying to show just how darn happy Cas really was that Jack is going to live and that he managed to also help Heaven if inadvertently. And hes trying to be happy as much as possible since he basically now knows how his death will come if not when exactly. Maybe Cas decided to let himself feel happiness since that seemed to be a condition of his deal. She said something about that IIRC. So I'll give that a pass. That said, I agree that it seemed way more like J2M than TFW 1.0.

[ahrtee]

7 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Well, at least it looks like we're finally done with the melodramatic moping over Tuberculosis Sue. Of course, now that it's resolved, this entire story of Jackie-poo's sickies just feels like a giant waste of time. It would have been much more elegant if Jack's subplot had something to do with Michael, just to keep it all under one mytharc umbrella. But the writers instead chose to go on a random tangent that had nothing to do with the (apparent) central story of the season. I hate how they plot their seasons. No interconnections, shallow "feelsy" character interactions, a complete dearth of any meaty or serious drama, tons of filler where there should be development and intrigue. 

My fear (no spoilers, just thoughts) is that they're going to use the "losing a part of his soul" as a stepping stone to the same old "did he come back wrong?" that they used with Sam several times, and make that into the next big story.  (And that was why they made such a point of mentioning it over and over--and changing canon to make it happen.)    

After all, they still have to make Jack the main focus of everyone's attention for the rest of the season, don't they? 

At least it'd give Jack something more than gooeyness to play, though I have doubts that he (or the writers) can come up with the nuance they'd need to make it work.

Edited December 7, 2018 by ahrtee

[Aeryn13]

I didn`t find the episode bad, just overall pointless. This show doesn`t get to play around with "we killed that character, be sad" anymore. They made death absurd. Unless the actor doesn`t want to return, noone dies here. And really, they came up with a random deus ex machine in the way of Lily Sunder within 5 minutes or so. 

Didn`t much care for this new version of the Empty-Keeper or rather "the Shadow". It is clearly introduced as a future Big Bad by being batshit evil. Last Season it seemed just above it all and disinterested. It wanted to sleep and cared nothing for good, evil or its own prized possession. Now it is more generically evil. This has nothing to do with Erica Cerra`s performance who is an excellent actress and was very good in the role. 

This episode was weirldy disjointed, it focused on the Nougat Baby but the main protagonist was clearly Cas. So he basically got Angelus gypsy curse where a moment of true happiness will lead to his doom. Let me guess when that happens, May?

Jack was still impeccably saintly and the saintification of Kelly continues. In Season 12 she was just some woman who got unfortunately knocked up by Lucifer but she wasn`t portrayed as extraordinarily wonderful and pure. Now she is the Madonna. I like the actress and her character on Legends, though it took me some time to warm up to her there but she is really quite good in the show. Kelly on the other hand? Gets on my nerves. 

She is a funny juxtaposition to Mary, though, the mother who can`t be bothered when it`s not about her own wants. I mean, her "adopted people" clearly come before her sons but still far beyond her own selfishness and me me me-attitude. 

Now obviously this soul-sucking will be used by some angsty "oh, will the Nougat baby develop edges and personality now?" Can`t wait. *eye roll*  Again, nothing to do with Alex Calvert who does a very good job. 

The actors are doing their part, more than even, it`s the writers who are falling down.

Lily Sunder got a happy ending. Good for her. I liked her introductionary episode better. She was more a plot device here.

This overly melodramatic "how can our kid die" was way over the top. He isn`t their child. They`ve known him for about a year and the context if far too complicated to equivalate it to raising a child. 

Now I got through all these notes without once mentioning Dean or Sam. Which is because they just stood around, acted overly melodramatic and made some plot machinations happen. But overall they were the most superflouus part of the episode. I take boring over offensive when it comes to Dean any day of the week but it also makes the episode easily forgettable. 

If the show still has so many episodes to waste on filler and padding, maybe they should have slashed the ep count down to 5 or so. Maybe then we would have gotten a coherently told Dean!Micheal storyline. 

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

My only wank on this is that maybe they are trying to show just how darn happy Cas really was that Jack is going to live and that he managed to also help Heaven if inadvertently. And hes trying to be happy as much as possible since he basically now knows how his death will come if not when exactly. Maybe Cas decided to let himself feel happiness since that seemed to be a condition of his deal. She said something about that IIRC. So I'll give that a pass. That said, I agree that it seemed way more like J2M than TFW 1.0.

Didn't this scene take place before Cas's encounter with the Entity/Shadow?  They were sitting around after Jack died apparently celebrating his very short life.  Having lost people it takes a few days before you can laugh about their lives.  In the minutes afterward you are usually pretty stunned.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

Didn't this scene take place before Cas's encounter with the Entity/Shadow?  They were sitting around after Jack died apparently celebrating his very short life.  Having lost people it takes a few days before you can laugh about their lives.  In the minutes afterward you are usually pretty stunned.

I'm assuming they were *very* drunk by the time they started laughing.  Even Cas. 

[Casseiopeia]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm assuming they were *very* drunk by the time they started laughing.  Even Cas. 

It did seem that way.  I was pretty smashed as well didn't really feel like laughing but I guess death doesn't mean much to TFW.

[juppschmitz]

To the people who watched the episode, what percentage/how much time of the episode would you say focused on Dean? You know, as a person, his life, and so on rather than how upset/worried was he about Jack/bringing Jack back?

(I'm not even gonna go into how inane the mere thought of the Winchesters bringing back somebody from the dead is after all these years.)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

To the people who watched the episode, what percentage/how much time of the episode would you say focused on Dean? You know, as a person, his life, and so on rather than how upset/worried was he about Jack/bringing Jack back?

0 %.  Which, to be fair, goes for Sam, too. Cas, I might give 5 %, due to his previous connection to the Empty-Keeper which was featured.