The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[Featherhat]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

Hahahaha

That's hilarious. 

I think my favorite part was the author being like "BS should be BC to show that woman aren't interchangeable".

Heh, yeah. And Sara literally fell at Laurel's feet leading to Laurel impersonating her to her father for over half the season, but that's ok because her name was DLL (apparently).

Yeah we are going to have to deal with whining articles like this all season and I really hope the show doesn't decide to go there because of it. Having E2 LL join the team would be worse because they'd mostly forget that this wasn't even their original friend, which is still interchanging a female character.

And I really don't think they'd have bothered making JH a regular if they'd wanted to go a redemption route. If they'd decided/been forced to get KC back for whatever reason they'd have had Sara do something with the Spear or Gideon fixing her or something and saved themselves the bother.

Alternatively we'll get articles going on about how awesome BS is and how KC is obviously the best villain ever and I won't agree with them either but fine.

30 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

But replacing Laurel with Evil Laurel is totes fine!  And Dinah is unfit to be the Black Canary because she's carried a gun and is too much like Sara.  You know, the one that Laurel was copying in the first place!  Ugh.  

I also am getting real tired of this weird narrative that makes Kreisberg on The Flash some sort of hero that went against MG and brought back BS as if MG wasn't in on that choice at all.  

Yeah. And Arrow wasn't exactly dealing with Metahumans at the time or E2 and given that people reacted poorly to magic in S4 and it's one of the reasons being "blamed" for that season I can't think people would have been that receptive to her then either. Or shouldn't have been except you know, she wasn't Olicity so it's all good. Not to mention KC was technically still an Arrow regular at the time and couldn't necessarily appear on Flash without MG being involved in the process and it was probably a bone for KC since they'd just dumped her, a decision that was certainly not MGs alone either.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Featherhat

[lemotomato]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Also, just to the whole article....what???

The author is Jay Ruhman, who used to write lots of poorly composed, fawning essays about LL for a no-name website. I didn't bother to read this article, but I'm guessing his argument is based on Because Comics! and some supposed importance of LL in Oliver's life?

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

The author is Jay Ruhman, who used to write lots of poorly composed, fawning essays about LL for a no-name website. I didn't bother to read this article, but I'm guessing his argument is based on Because Comics! and some supposed importance of LL in Oliver's life?

I don't know if he said that or not, LOL.  I could barely discern a complete thought from it. I don't like to criticize stream of consciousness writing because I do that, but man, that was meandering and not really coherent.

[lemotomato]

I can't believe he gets paid to write something that poorly put together.

[SmallScreenDiva]

He's probably not. Paid, I mean. Especially if it's a no-name site like TV Fanatic. Even Erik Kain at Forbes, I suspect his articles are freebies. Meaning the exposure on a site is payment itself. Or if they're paid, it's extremely cheap. I could be totally wrong.  But the articles come across as very raw. If no editor is looking it over? Likely no payment. Which is why you get these embarrassing articles ... because no one is asking questions and checking. 

[Proteus]

It's funny that Sara and Dinah are apparently not worthy of being Black Canary because they've killed, but E2 Laurel is when she sure as heck has and for far worse reasons.

[statsgirl]

But Dinah has used a gun!  She's not worthy.  Laurel has used a gun too, when she tried to kill Komodo and when she pumped half a dozen bullets into the guard but apparently that's okay.

He also says that BS is better than Dinah because Laurel was someone who fought for the law by day, conveniently forgetting both Laurel's blackmail and the fact that Dinah was and is a cop.

Quote

It's about this new Laurel from another Earth learning how to be good again, how to get justice, and continuing what her late counterpart left behind. It's about what could be an interesting journey of redemption and justice.

Not only that, but there's a life for her on this Earth, whereas there isn't at her home. On Earth-1, she has Quentin, Sara (when she's not time-traveling), and Oliver.

This is my favourite part.  First the assumption that she was good on Earth 2 and then that there isn't a life for her back there. We know nothing of what it is like for her on Earth 2 other than that Oliver died when the boat sank. For all we know, Tommy was the love of her life.  Quentin has already given her his opinion when she kidnapped him and Oliver doesn't seem to be much interested in being her loved one.

[lemotomato]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Oliver doesn't seem to be much interested in being her loved one.

He didn't even refer to her by name in 523. He called her "a metahuman" when he mentioned her to Nyssa and Slade.

[wonderwall]

8 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Oliver doesn't seem to be much interested in being her loved one.

He called her a meta human instead of by her name in the finale and called her "it" in the season 6 promo so it's safe to say he really doesn't car *snickers*

[insomniadreams88]

6 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

But Dinah has used a gun!  She's not worthy.  Laurel has used a gun too, when she tried to kill Komodo and when she pumped half a dozen bullets into the guard but apparently that's okay.

He also says that BS is better than Dinah because Laurel was someone who fought for the law by day, conveniently forgetting both Laurel's blackmail and the fact that Dinah was and is a cop.

This is my favourite part.  First the assumption that she was good on Earth 2 and then that there isn't a life for her back there. We know nothing of what it is like for her on Earth 2 other than that Oliver died when the boat sank. For all we know, Tommy was the love of her life.  Quentin has already given her his opinion when she kidnapped him and Oliver doesn't seem to be much interested in being her loved one.

Everything's okay when Laurel does it!

Also, I don't get why just because E1 LL was a certain way (ignoring the blackmail and everything), E2 LL should be able to take her place as BC? 

You know what? I'd love for E2 Tommy (or anyone but E2 Oliver) to be the love of BS' life, just because I'd love to see how the fans waiting to see E2 Oliver and BS flashbacks react. Imagine if they were only acquaintances through Tommy or something. Or never knew each other at all. Oh, imagine the articles we'd get. 

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

He's probably not. Paid, I mean. Especially if it's a no-name site like TV Fanatic. Even Erik Kain at Forbes, I suspect his articles are freebies. Meaning the exposure on a site is payment itself. Or if they're paid, it's extremely cheap. I could be totally wrong.  But the articles come across as very raw. If no editor is looking it over? Likely no payment. Which is why you get these embarrassing articles ... because no one is asking questions and checking. 

I swaear at first I thought it was an aggregated site kind of thing

[strikera0]

3 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

https://www.tvfanatic.com/2017/09/arrow-can-black-siren-respect-laurels-true-legacy/

I really hope we don't have to deal with articles like this all season. 

Sadly, I think we will and the producers only have themselves to blame for it. They have played musical chairs with the Black Canary identity throughout the show's run and just when it looks like we are finally going to get this thing settled with Dinah , they couldn't give her character 1 full season to properly establish herself before re-introducing a version of her predecessor. Everyone with half a brain knows that audience investment is generally higher in characters that have been there since the beginning as opposed to characters that are introduced in a season 5 or 6, so by bringing back KC in a series regular capacity at this stage in the game, they have opened the door to all sorts of anti-campaigning. 

[EmilyBettFan]

I wish they had a backbone and just never had her on the show again. Just brings unnecessary drama to the show. Against her co-stars and so forth.

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, strikera0 said:

Sadly, I think we will and the producers only have themselves to blame for it. They have played musical chairs with the Black Canary identity throughout the show's run and just when it looks like we are finally going to get this thing settled with Dinah , they couldn't give her character 1 full season to properly establish herself before re-introducing a version of her predecessor. Everyone with half a brain knows that audience investment is generally higher in characters that have been there since the beginning as opposed to characters that are introduced in a season 5 or 6, so by bringing back KC in a series regular capacity at this stage in the game, they have opened the door to all sorts of anti-campaigning. 

This is one of the reasons there is/was speculation that KC re becoming a regular was something that was forced on them from above, not the EPs idea themselves. They went to the trouble of finding a new BC, giving her a BC comics name so there can be no "but, but she can't be BC "Sara" Lance" issues (and have no one comment on how weird it is she has Laurel's first name, her mother's entire name and a meta version of the cry LL was already using) and a few weeks later they're announcing KC will be back as BS. If they'd actually wanted her back as BC there were ways to do it, hell they could have even had a KC as BC *and* BS show down if they'd wanted (not that I'm advocating that in the slightest) but they went ahead and made JH a regular and had several characters throw shade on BS in the final and have KC yell meta-ly that BC "stole her life" when DD didn't steal E2 LL's life in the slightest. There's little doubt that KC would like BS to have a redemption arc and resume her place on the team and as Oliver's LI though and the campaigning from some of her fans will probably continue.

[tv echo]

FYI, Sara Netzley is EW's episode reviewer for Arrow - on S5: "It hit a bullseye. Right in the heart." (dvd/blu-ray will be released on Sep. 19)...

Edited September 7, 2017 by tv echo

[Guest]

13 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

https://www.tvfanatic.com/2017/09/arrow-can-black-siren-respect-laurels-true-legacy/

I really hope we don't have to deal with articles like this all season. 

I thought TV Fanatic was a slightly more reputable site than some and yet this reads (mostly, I didn't even finish) like one of those "articles" written by an LL stan and posted to one of those fan sites like moviepilots or something. It's a mess and the whole thing is a contradiction, IMO. Whoever edits on that site...yikes. The embarrassment. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Guest

[lemotomato]

3 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I thought TV Fanatic was a slightly more reputable site than some and yet this reads (mostly, I didn't even finish) like one of those "articles" written by an LL stan and posted to one of those fan sites like moviepilots or something.

That's because it is the same LL stan that used to write articles posted to the fan sites.

[SmallScreenDiva]

3 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I thought TV Fanatic was a slightly more reputable site than some and yet this reads (mostly, I didn't even finish) like one of those "articles" written by an LL stan and posted to one of those fan sites like moviepilots or something. It's a mess and the whole thing is a contradiction, IMO. Whoever edits on that site...yikes. The embarrassment. 

Nah, TV Fanatic has always been trash. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

That's because it is the same LL stan that used to write articles posted to the fan sites.

?  I thought it was bad. ?

[lemotomato]

Does TV Fanatic do their own interviews anymore? I remember they used have a representative at the upfronts and SDCC, but I get the impression they've become like comicbook.com, writing articles based on other sites' interviews.

[strikera0]

I just found this article:

http://www.cbr.com/characters-the-arrowverse-does-and-doesnt-need/

I'm starting to wonder if I watched an alternate version of Arrow season 4 because I'm just not seeing the awesomeness of Laurel's Black Canary. I mean, sure, she wasn't as incompetent as in previous seasons but aside from Sara's resurrection, she didn't do sht all year. 

[wonderwall]

2 hours ago, strikera0 said:

I just found this article:

http://www.cbr.com/characters-the-arrowverse-does-and-doesnt-need/

I'm starting to wonder if I watched an alternate version of Arrow season 4 because I'm just not seeing the awesomeness of Laurel's Black Canary. I mean, sure, she wasn't as incompetent as in previous seasons but aside from Sara's resurrection, she didn't do sht all year. 

Rose colored glasses. More people cared about her when she died than when she was alive...

[insomniadreams88]

2 hours ago, strikera0 said:

I just found this article:

http://www.cbr.com/characters-the-arrowverse-does-and-doesnt-need/

I'm starting to wonder if I watched an alternate version of Arrow season 4 because I'm just not seeing the awesomeness of Laurel's Black Canary. I mean, sure, she wasn't as incompetent as in previous seasons but aside from Sara's resurrection, she didn't do sht all year. 

It's simple: her name is Laurel Lance. That's all that matters. If Laurel had had another name and Dinah Drake was the first BC with a comic book character name, no one would ever talk about Laurel again. 

[Primal Slayer]

For what little she got in S4 I loved her (besides the Sara plot and dying). 4 seasons, people invested in the character and of course are gonna be pissed that she is gone when things were just looking up.

[Guest]

The Laurel stuff confuses me because she was basically wallpaper in s4 and didn't do anything memorable, IMO. So they just want the fade-into-the-background version of Laurel back? Sounds about right.

That whole article was pretty bad though. And kinda racist.

[LeighAn]

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

It's simple: her name is Laurel Lance. That's all that matters. If Laurel had had another name and Dinah Drake was the first BC with a comic book character name, no one would ever talk about Laurel again. 

Agreed. Honestly if Felicity was called Babra Gordon she would probably be Reddits hero and if Laurel was called Sarah Jane she'd be despised by Reddit.

[EmilyBettFan]

What I don't get is she has done nothing of value. I can name countless things OTA have done for the team and each other and I've watched all the episodes. Laurel hardly did anything for the team or for anyone. 

She took down one bad darhk goon from season 4 that I can remember. 

Where as Felicity found the bioweapons (the people themselves) and saved Oliver in Ray's suit. That she's helped to make work. Yet she hardly gets credit for that from comic fanboys. Nope can't let her have that cause she's not an actual superhero. ?

[Mellowyellow]

I actually think the comic fanboys like LL because she wears tight leather but DOESN'T actually do anything useful. 

Felicity is uncomfortably too heroic for them. Stopping the earthquake machine, jabbing Slade, flying in to save Oliver, stopping nukes.

Now that's just not acceptable for a pretty little blonde is it?

LL wears black leather and is tolerant of her cheating ex like every good woman should be. 

Felicity has a backbone, saves the world and the male lead. How can they tolerate that?

[Trini]

I expect more of these response pieces to turn up as this plaaned episode moves forward:

'You Ain’t Got the Juice: Why Arrow Has No Business Addressing #BlackLivesMatter'

[Guest]

Good article. Though I'm not sure why Laurel was used as an example when there are actually POC that have been mistreated on the show. Strange choice and not the right context for it, IMO. 

[lemotomato]

I don't know how the show's handling of comic canon has to do with anything either. I agree with the conclusion that Arrow shouldn't do a BLM episode, but I don't necessarily agree with all the points they used in their argument. 

Edited September 11, 2017 by lemotomato

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I don't know how the show's handling of comic canon has to do with anything either. 

Especially not holding her up as an example of them not being able to do white characters right.  Seems like a personal point of bitterness the author wanted to air in a completely unrelated article. Fits in an article about the Arrowverse's treatment of women, but not here IMO.

Edited September 12, 2017 by apinknightmare
ETA: She did mention Oliver - I missed it!

[insomniadreams88]

Yeah, I got confused when Laurel was brought up just at all. But I will say that other than that, it's an article that needed to be written and I'm all for more articles like this, especially if maybe MG sees at least one of them and reconsiders his plans for a BLM episode. 

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Yeah, I got confused when Laurel was brought up just at all. But I will say that other than that, it's an article that needed to be written and I'm all for more articles like this, especially if maybe MG sees at least one of them and reconsiders his plans for a BLM episode. 

Yeah, I think pointing out what an awful idea it is as often as possible is a great idea. Unfortunately MG's the kinda guy who doubles down when someone tells him he shouldn't do something.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

Good article. Though I'm not sure why Laurel was used as an example when there are actually POC that have been mistreated on the show. Strange choice and not the right context for it, IMO. 

From the article:

Quote

... But none of this should come as a surprise if you are aware of how Guggenheim has treated even the white characters on Arrow. ...

Quote

... Which raises the question: If Guggenheim cannot even get white characters right, what the hell makes him think that he has the skills to take on a #BLM episode? ...

[lemotomato]

9 minutes ago, Trini said:

From the article:

Yes, we've read the article. Reposting the quotes doesn't make their point any clearer, and doesn't explain why they emphasize that Laurel was more mistreated than the other WOC characters or even relevant at all.

Edited September 12, 2017 by lemotomato

[apinknightmare]

None of the white comic canon characters are exactly like their comics counterparts. Neither are the PoC comic canon characters. It's a point that makes no sense in any context, haha.

[wonderwall]

The problem with bringing Laurel in and how she was mistreated goes beyond the scope of the argument and invites more people to talk about something other than the issue at hand - which is how Arrow shouldn't be doing a BLM episode. I thought it was a poorly constructed argument and while I agreed with some points - it doesn't really tackle the issue at hand. It talked more about the white characters than any of the black characters which I think was its first (and greatest) mis-step. 

Where's the mention of Waller? Lady Cop who was poorly used but had potential? What about baby Sara? Carly? Or Joanna who was unceremoniously dumped? Then there's Chad Coleman who's a great actor who was criminally underused. Then there's Diggle who suffers from a lack of story every season.

Instead of talking about Laurel they had a lot of other characters to use. But didn't and then strayed from the subject. Arrow treats every character poorly - but this is not the point. The point is  that because it's such a shallow show with no black writers and has a bad history with black characters, Arrow should be the last show to deal with this subject matter. It's not a topic that's supposed to be an after-school special. It's supposed to be developed properly and with time. Crushing hundreds of years of oppression into 45 minutes won't cut it.

I appreciate the reason why this person wanted to write something about Arrow doing a BLM episode - I just think it was really poorly written.

Edited September 12, 2017 by wonderwall

[Primal Slayer]

They said they stopped watching in S3 due to their treatment of women and people of color. The fact that they couldn't even write the white girl right, what makes them think they can tackle such an issue as big as black lives matter?  

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Where's the mention of Waller? Lady Cop who was poorly used but had potential? What about baby Sara? Carly? Or Joanna who was unceremoniously dumped? Then there's Chad Coleman who's a great actor who was criminally underused. Then there's Diggle who suffers from a lack of story every season.

The author admitted on Twitter that she had stopped watching, so I think she didn't tune in for anything that happened past S2 (I think that's when she said she stopped). People on Twitter did pick up where she left off and made those arguments, though. I think the space occupied by Laurel in that article would've been much better served by an edit to include all the other examples of poor treatment of PoC instead of dedicating space to a white person. Or mentioning all the other big issues Arrow has done a terrible job of addressing (gun control, PTSD, paralyzation, murder, etc). 

[wonderwall]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

The author admitted on Twitter that she had stopped watching, so I think she didn't tune in for anything that happened past S2 (I think that's when she said she stopped). People on Twitter did pick up where she left off and made those arguments, though. I think the space occupied by Laurel in that article would've been much better served by an edit to include all the other examples of poor treatment of PoC instead of dedicating space to a white person. Or mentioning all the other big issues Arrow has done a terrible job of addressing (gun control, PTSD, paralyzation, murder, etc). 

Yeah - she should've brushed up on the subject before she wrote anything imo. There are plenty of issues the show faces wrt how they treat PoC and intense subjects like the ones you mentioned.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Trini said:

From the article:

Uh, I read the article. I'm not sure why you're quoting it at me. And I stand by my original comment. Laurel Lance had no place being used as an example, especially when there's POC characters who would've made more sense in context. 

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

They said they stopped watching in S3 due to their treatment of women and people of color. The fact that they couldn't even write the white girl right, what makes them think they can tackle such an issue as big as black lives matter?  

Yes, and her beef with Laurel and the sentence she wrote about Oliver are both about them not complying with comic canon, which isn't a great argument. Does she have the same issue with white characters who aren't comic canon? Or is there not "right" way for them to be, and their flaws are just part of who they are? Her point would've been better if it had been about the way the show skated over Laurel's addiction issues, or Felicity's paralyzation, or Oliver's PTSD. They can't handle big issues for their white characters, so how can they do it for the black characters? But that's not the argument she made. 

[lemotomato]

20 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

They said they stopped watching in S3 due to their treatment of women and people of color. The fact that they couldn't even write the white girl right, what makes them think they can tackle such an issue as big as black lives matter?  

So... basically when the author included Laurel, she's saying "If All Lives don't matter to the show's writers, then they definitely can't write about how Black Lives Matter"?

[Primal Slayer]

Tweet her and ask if she thats what she meant. Way I interpreted it, white guy can't write his own race right especially characters that they already had the layout for, tackling BLM is beyond their writing capabilities.  

Going to her twitter and looks like she/MG have already crossed paths

Edited September 12, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Way I interpreted it, white guy can't write his own race right especially characters that they already had the layout for, tackling BLM is beyond their writing capabilities.  

Yes, but just because they decided not to follow comic canon, doesn't make the way they handled the characters generally wrong. It just means that they didn't follow comic canon, which is a given since the opening title cards read "based on" the characters published by DC Comics. So it's a poor argument.

[Primal Slayer]

If you make Batman into a happy go lucky guy whose parents are alive, you handled the character wrong, same with making Superman into a broody. Make the heroine into a damsel, you handled the character wrong. It's one thing if you improve upon them then people can look past certain things.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[apinknightmare]

14 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

If you make Batman into a happy go lucky guy, you handled the character wrong. Make the heroine into a damsel, you handled the character wrong.

Wrong based on your own idea of what you think you should get when the show tells you - literally every episode right in the title cards - that you aren't getting it. It's an interpretation on the established characters - do you think Adam West's Batman is wrong? Or is it just a different version? I appreciate that you're glad your fave got a shout out that expresses how you feel about the way she was treated on the show, but I still think the point could've been better made using different examples instead of a rundown on her love life and that she "never really gets to grow into her Black Canary persona." Those are issues that are better served in an article about how the show treats women, or one about how the show treats comic canon, not one about BLM.

Edited September 12, 2017 by apinknightmare

[TwistedandBored]

I get what she is writing about...the show not understanding how to write for the PoC characters they currently have and their lack of PoC writers in their creative team. I get that part. It would have been a lot better if she also wrote about the show's horrible track record on writing any meaningful stories like Felicity's being paralyzed, gun violence, death, etc but she didn't. Her using the treatment of 1 white woman as a reason why the show shouldn't write for BLM episode is weird. Just because they couldn't write Laurel doesn't mean they don't write know how to write for all women. They have wrote for Felicity, Moira, Thea, Nyssa, and many more. And, if we talking about Arrowverse then there is Iris, Caitlin, Kara, and many more. So, that just undermines her point and takes the focus off what she is trying to say. 

I still think the writers should touch BLM. It is not their place and right now is really not the time to be preachy about a subject they know nothing about. I hope more articles come out going after his horrible writing using straight up facts. 

[looptab]

I must've missed something - when did they say they wanted to address BLM?