The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

tv echo · February 18, 2018

Exclusive: Arrow Vinimates Are Coming!
February 17, 2018
http://www.greenarrowtv.com/exclusive-arrow-vinimates-are-coming/

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The line of DC Vinimates from Diamond Select Toys is expanding — and we have an exclusive first look at some Arrow 4-inch vinyl figures that are coming, featuring three Arrow favorites!

The three initial releases will include Green Arrow, Black Canary (Dinah Drake version), and Deathstroke.
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Edited February 18, 2018 by tv echo

tv echo · February 23, 2018

There's a poll at the end - currently 81% do not want to see the newbies rejoin Team Arrow this season...

Why It's Getting Harder to Root for the Newbies on 'Arrow'
February 22, 2018 Meredith Jacobs
http://www.buddytv.com/articles/arrow/why-its-getting-harder-to-root-67714.aspx

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There have been two teams protecting (or at least declaring their intentions to protect) Star City since the Arrow winter premiere, when the newbies formed their own team, but NTA hasn't really given us any reason to root for them or want them back with OTA since they were either kicked off (Rene) or left (Dinah and Curtis) Team Arrow.

Instead, we haven't seen much to suggest that they care for the city like OTA. The events that led to the split haven't been treated as seriously as they are -- Rene agreeing to testify against Oliver and then demonstrating he's not exactly trustworthy in the field -- and the newbies seem to think their hypocritical behavior is okay. So, why should we want them back before something changes with their attitudes, especially when it means the opportunity for more OTA scenes, something that has been sorely lacking since they joined the team in season 5?
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While Oliver was hitting the streets and Felicity was pulling all-nighters looking for Cayden James in the weeks that passed between the winter finale and premiere, the newbies were seemingly doing nothing to help the city until they decided to form a team in "Divided."

Then, despite the tech they set up in their new base, they didn't know about Cayden's attack on the city in "We Fall" until Felicity called. The moves they made in that episode were all based off intel from Vince. Sure, the threats themselves (specifically, Cayden and his bomb) have to be considered, but there hasn't been any proactive vigilante-ing from the newbies since the split. Shouldn't their tech keep them in the loop? And shouldn't Curtis be able to check out intel without calling Felicity as he did in "We Fall"?

But the real head-scratcher came in "All for Nothing," when Curtis and Rene chose to help Dinah go after Vince, a meta with healing abilities, instead of helping Oliver and Diggle find a bomb that would destroy the entire city (a city that includes Rene's daughter and the people Dinah has sworn to protect as a cop) because ... they were still mad at OTA and wanted to show a united front?

We've seen OTA put their feelings aside regarding the newbies to do what's best for the city, including reaching out to them, despite unnecessary digs from NTA, but even when the two teams work together, it seems like the newbies care more about reminding OTA that nothing has changed ("hoss") than the bigger picture: protecting the city.
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Rene has also been acting like he was the one wronged with some of his comments when he's the one who betrayed Oliver, turned off his comms in the field (along with Curtis) and is presumably still going to testify against him since he still has his daughter with him. Sure, he asked Curtis to try to help him with that in the winter premiere, but we've seen nothing since then to suggest he's trying to get out of it.

And since he's also shown that he's willing to give up Oliver, why do Dinah and Curtis trust him enough to not only work with him but also to declare how much they love working with people they can trust? Why does it seem like they've forgotten about that fact? Why do they think that he'd never turn them in too? The newbies would have a leg to stand on if it had turned out that it hadn't been one of them to turn on Oliver, but it was.
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Oliver, Felicity and Diggle put the newbies under surveillance (tracking their phones) once they learned a team member was going to testify that Oliver's the Green Arrow. The newbies got mad, but Curtis is a complete hypocrite to be upset about this since last year, he fed Felicity tracking nanites without her knowledge and followed her to Helix -- and no one seems to remember this.

I'd consider what Curtis did worse than what OTA did, especially since they knew that someone from the team had turned on Oliver and it had to be one of the newbies -- and it was. (And the fact that the newbies had a problem with the division in the team when it would have been crazy for Oliver to suspect his wife or a man he considers to be his brother is just ridiculous. Who's to say this wouldn't have ended the same way if Oliver had asked the newbies instead of spying on them?)

After the team split, the newbies were angry that it took Felicity and Diggle a day to tell them the bunker was bugged and the villains were working together, but then said they were going to "eventually" tell OTA that Vince was their inside man, after the two teams agreed to share information. Apparently for NTA, this means OTA telling them everything and the newbies deciding when and what they share while still getting upset pretty much every time they talk or are in the same room.
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Because Arrow wanted to develop bonds between old and new characters going back to season 5, it has been missing OTA (and especially Felicity and Diggle) scenes. Last year, it was Rene who was the one to think Diggle would want to see his son on his birthday when it should have been Lyla, Oliver or Felicity. The beginning of this season saw Diggle confiding in Dinah about his injury and Felicity finding out about it almost like an afterthought.

And while it should have been Diggle who gave the toast at Oliver and Felicity's reception, it was Rene, even though we've never had any indication that he knows their history. That was clearly done to make his betrayal worse, but why not have Diggle also give a speech then?

Edited February 23, 2018 by tv echo

Primal Slayer · February 23, 2018

104 people voting, it makes sense.

strikera0 · February 23, 2018

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And since he's also shown that he's willing to give up Oliver, why do Dinah and Curtis trust him enough to not only work with him but also to declare how much they love working with people they can trust? Why does it seem like they've forgotten about that fact? Why do they think that he'd never turn them in too?

Somebody should ask Echo or Juliana that question. I would like to know how they are trying to make sense of the ridiculous script.

GHScorpiosRule · February 23, 2018

And since he's also shown that he's willing to give up Oliver, why do Dinah and Curtis trust him enough to not only work with him but also to declare how much they love working with people they can trust? Why does it seem like they've forgotten about that fact? Why do they think that he'd never turn them in too?

27 minutes ago, strikera0 said:

Somebody should ask Echo or Juliana that question. I would like to know how they are trying to make sense of the ridiculous script.

I believe Curtis doesn't blame WildDong because he said he (Dong) didn't have a choice because it was him "choosing" his daughter or some such bullshit. It was in the episode right after they all learned Dong was the traitor.

statsgirl · February 23, 2018

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

There's a poll at the end - currently 81% do not want to see the newbies rejoin Team Arrow this season...

Why It's Getting Harder to Root for the Newbies on 'Arrow'
February 22, 2018 Meredith Jacobs

She hits all the points why the storyline is a fail, including JJ's birthday.

Interesting that the article was written by a woman and not at one of the standard comic book sites like cbr. Probably explains the amount of anti n00b vote too.

quarks · February 23, 2018

2 hours ago, strikera0 said:

Somebody should ask Echo or Juliana that question. I would like to know how they are trying to make sense of the ridiculous script.

"We get a paycheck."

KenyaJ · February 23, 2018

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I believe Curtis doesn't blame WildDong because he said he (Dong) didn't have a choice because it was him "choosing" his daughter or some such bullshit. It was in the episode right after they all learned Dong was the traitor.

But the fact that they understand his motivation doesn't explain why they haven't expressed concern that he wouldn't sell them out too, given the proper motivation. It's something Dinah and Curtis should have discussed with him in 610 when they decided to form a new team. But the writers were so intent on the civil war storyline that I think they intentionally avoided acknowledging that it doesn't make sense for anyone on the show to trust Rene.

GHScorpiosRule · February 23, 2018

3 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

But the fact that they understand his motivation doesn't explain why they haven't expressed concern that he wouldn't sell them out too, given the proper motivation. It's something Dinah and Curtis should have discussed with him in 610 when they decided to form a new team. But the writers were so intent on the civil war storyline that I think they intentionally avoided acknowledging that it doesn't make sense for anyone on the show to trust Rene.

Aah. I see what you mean. I guess because he was also angry that Oliver "spied" on him. Like I've stated in the episode threads, and against the writers: this show and these NOOBS didn't EARN a Civil Story type arc.

apinknightmare · February 23, 2018

1 hour ago, KenyaJ said:

But the fact that they understand his motivation doesn't explain why they haven't expressed concern that he wouldn't sell them out too, given the proper motivation. It's something Dinah and Curtis should have discussed with him in 610 when they decided to form a new team. But the writers were so intent on the civil war storyline that I think they intentionally avoided acknowledging that it doesn't make sense for anyone on the show to trust Rene.

Curtis in particular is stupid for trusting him, since he's been around BOTH times Rene sold Oliver out (first to Tobias Church, and then to the FBI). I also find it amusing that Rene regrets what he did - and acknowledges that it was a betrayal all the while continuing to be angry at Oliver for not trusting him, even though he...admits he did something that makes him untrustworthy. LOL

Edited February 23, 2018 by apinknightmare

GHScorpiosRule · February 23, 2018

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

Curtis in particular is stupid for trusting him, since he's been around BOTH times Oliver sold Oliver out (first to Tobias Church, and then to the FBI)

Eh? I think you mean ~~Dong~~ Rene sold Oliver out?

apinknightmare · February 23, 2018

6 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Eh? I think you mean ~~Dong~~ Rene sold Oliver out

Yes. Clearly. I’ve corrected in case anyone gets confused.

tv echo · February 26, 2018

The Devil’s Greatest Trick - Arrow Music Notes 6x13
Austencello February 24, 2018
https://austencello.tumblr.com/post/171248476954/the-devils-greatest-trick-arrow-music-notes

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The episode opens with Oliver and John scoping out the villain’s lair after Vince’s death. Cayden and his evil posse had left but he kept monitors on to talk to them as they arrived. A variation of his second theme plays (first introduced in 6x04, discussed in music notes 6x10) as he promises to destroy the city at midnight with the bomb. Theme one returns as Cayden later speaks to Anatoly, Black Siren, and Diaz thanking them for bringing this dream of revenge to pass, promising to provide them with an airlift out of the city.

Team Arrow and Alena is able to prove that the video of Cayden’s son’s death framed the Green Arrow and as they show this to Cayden, a low slow version of Theme 2 plays in the tuba as he witnesses betrayal by a team member and promises his plan of revenge on the city will still come to pass if Oliver and John don’t help him find his betrayer.

Due to the Flashbacks, a new theme emerged for Cayden with water-glasses, electronics, and piano. This appeared in scenes regarding his son and how Cayden loved him regardless of not always being there or able to express it in life. It also plays in the present day as he speaks to both the heroes and villains with the bomb, explaining that they don’t know what it is like to lose a child: “It’s as if a piece of your soul is lost.”
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Cayden’s initial theme 1 plays one last time in high violin harmonics as Ricardo Diaz reveals himself as the puppet master behind the son’s death as he kills Cayden James. The master manipulator had been manipulated the whole time.
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In contrast to Cayden’s grief-induced revenge, Oliver is trying to save the city while protecting his son. William is scared and acts recklessly in following Oliver, not wanting to be separated from him the way he was with his mom with the bombs on the Island. The violins play the slow Arrow/Oliver theme as he is revealed: “I want to be with you.”

When it appears that Oliver may not be able to stop Cayden, he turns to William and tells him that he is there and loves him. Cayden sees this and recognizes that he failed his own son as a variation of that waterglasses theme returns. However, Oliver is able to stop him from blowing up the city and as he does “It is I who Failed this City” plays. This is a theme of sacrifice, heroism, and growth for Oliver, going back and forth between failure and getting a second chance. It first played quietly in flute and oboe in 1x08 as Oliver opened up to Helena about his part in Sara’s death and how he had lived had affected the people he loved. He had dealt with failure whether it is losing to the Dark Archer (1x09), and victory in defeating him in 4x13. It is the theme when Oliver gives Roy a second chance in saving his life (1x18) “Salvation” and again as he reveals his identity to stop Roy’s mirakuru rage in 2x12 “Reveal to Roy.” This theme also plays during another family dynamic in 1x23 as Quentin tells Laurel goodbye as he tries to stop the Undertaking: “Not Going to make it” and then as Tommy saves Laurel. Echoing the themes of failure and heroism, Cayden feels like he failed his son but Oliver was able to save his without killing Cayden giving him another chance.
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Oliver has a talk with William in the lair after it is all over and promises that nothing will happen to him. As they talk, the William and Oliver theme plays in the piano “Big Mistake” (2x20). This theme has accompanied their relationship from the beginning when Oliver told Moira about Samantha being pregnant and Moira paid off Samantha to tell Oliver she miscarried “The Pay off.” The theme plays as he runs into Samantha at Jitters in The Flash (1x08), then in 4x08 as he learns about William being his son and again in 4x14 as Thea discovers the check and about William. Even in Season 6, William and Oliver go through a rocky time to trust as William accuses Oliver being the bad man of his nightmares in 6x01. The important parallel is in 6x02 as William shares his fears and that Oliver wasn’t coming back after fighting the bad guys. William was still living in grief and fear and out of that Oliver chose to put aside the Green Arrow to be there for William. William has now accepted that Oliver is a hero and is needed by the city. Now his fear is less of being left alone as it is losing his Dad. Oliver asks William to trust him and his promise to return home and Williams agrees.
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... As he drives away with Laurel in the car, the piano plays “She was my rock” (4x19). Lance has always had a problem with obsession and addiction whether it was drinking or bringing the Hood to justice or trying to find his daughters. His Laurel could help him with those and her death shattered him....
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- Still trying to determine Ricardo Diaz’s theme. Hopefully that will become apparent as the Season continues.

Edited February 26, 2018 by tv echo

tv echo · February 28, 2018

8 infuriating TV characters who were redeemed by an epic death
BY MORGAN JEFFERY 28 FEBRUARY 2018
http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/feature/a851121/awful-tv-characters-redeemed-epic-deaths/

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There's nothing like a heroic act of self-sacrifice to totally flip fan opinion on a TV character.

You can be an irritant, a scoundrel, even an outright villain, but if you go out with a bit of dignity – and even better, save another character (or characters) in the process – then all your sins can be forgiven.
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6. Malcolm Merlyn - Arrow
...
Don't get us wrong, we loved John Barrowman's portrayal of the dastardly Dark Archer. But, boy, wasn't Malcolm an absolute scoundrel? His worst crime: unquestionably arranging the murder of Sara Lance (Caity Lotz).

It was all done out of love, he argued, for Thea Queen (Willa Holland), his daughter and Oliver's half-sister. But did Malcolm have it in him to make the ultimate sacrifice for his offspring?

Sure enough, when Thea stepped on a land-mine on the island of Lian Yu, Malcolm's ninja reflexes allowed him to push her away to safety and take her place over the trigger in one fell swoop.

He eventually detonated the explosive, taking the villain Digger Harkness with him. Good guy? Bad guy? One thing's for certain, Malcolm went out a hero.

Edited February 28, 2018 by tv echo

Morrigan2575 · February 28, 2018

no, no and no ?

strikera0 · March 1, 2018

I just found this article:

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'Arrow': Why Black Siren Can Still Be Redeemed

Arrow is currently at the tail end of a month-long hiatus, meaning viewers won't have to wait too long to see what happens next with the various costumed citizens of Star City.

In the meantime, fans have speculated quite a bit about what will come next for the series, wondering what exactly Ricardo Diaz (Kirk Acevedo) is after, how Roy Harper (Colton Haynes) will re enter the fold, and the like. And one question has popped up quite a bit as well: what is next forLaurel Lance/Black Siren (Katie Cassidy).

Earth-2 Laurel has been a bonafide fan-favorite since she first appeared in The Flash's second season, with her presence only growing as she jumped over to Arrow a little over a year ago. More often than not, she has been an adversary of Team Arrow, largely through her work with both Adrian Chase/Prometheus (Josh Segarra) and Cayden James (Michael Emerson). But almost since she made her first debut, fans have been eagerly wondering what Laurel's future holds, and if there's a chance that she could join the good side.

This conversation has only increased in recent months, caused by both fan discussion (shout out to the #RedemptionForBlackSiren hashtag) and Arrow itself. Over the course of the season, Quentin Lance (Paul Blackthorne) has grown to see the good in his daughter's doppelganger, after she set him free from a hostage situation. Since then, Laurel's redemption has been teased more and more, with Quentin introducing aspects of Earth-1 Laurel's life to her, and Laurel offering to essentially sacrifice herself during the villain team's standoff with Cayden.

Even then, not everyone has come around to the idea of Laurel's redemption, with some citing particular instances in canon (we'll get to one particular one in a bit), or just wanting to see Laurel continue to operate in a sort of fun villain role. But in a way, the apprehension about Laurel getting redeemed - and even the apprehension that some Arrow characters have shown about it - feels like its missing the point.

Okay, so let's talk about the elephant in the Arrow Cave - Laurel having a hand in killing Vincent Sobel/Vigilante (Johann Urb) in "All For Nothing". While Laurel has killed or injured an array of people over her Arrowverse tenure, this particular scene rubbed quite a few Arrow fans the wrong way, and led to some arguing that Laurel is too far gone to become a hero.

So, let's put aside whether or not Laurel wanted to kill Vigilante, as an argument can be made that she was essentially being forced to by Cayden. You know what Arrow has proved, time and time again? That killing someone - even a supporting character who some were invested in - does not make you irredeemable.

Almost everyone on Team Arrow has notable deaths under their belt for one reason or another, whether it be Felicity Smoak's Havenrock, John Diggle's time in the military, or Dinah Drake's quest for revenge when she thought Vince had initially died. Heck, most fans have lost track of the number of people Oliver Queen has killed over Arrow's past six years.

And even looking at the track record of past Arrow villains, characters have ended up being seen in a positive light quite a bit. Malcolm Merlyn went back and forth from a mastermind to a sort of awkward family member over the years, and ultimately died in what was regarded as a hero's sacrifice. Slade Wilson arguably had the biggest heel-face turn of all, going from delivering the most shocking kill in Arrow's history to teaming up with Oliver in a matter of a few years.

All of those characters have gotten second chances, and are seen as the heroes of the story in one way or another. So why can't Laurel be a hero as well?

Which by the way, some of the apprehension around Laurel's redemption can probably be contributed to the fear of the unknown. We largely don't know a lot of her Earth-2 backstory, aside from pieces of her childhood and how she got her powers. We know that she's experienced a lot of loss - namely with Earth-2 Quentin and Oliver - which somewhat motivated her to lose hope and put up a guard. Outside of that, things are somewhat...vague.

But just because we don't know what the exact circumstances of her Earth-2 life were, doesn't mean we can't relate to the way that she handles loss. After all, characters losing those close to them - and how they choose to deal with it - is arguably one of the biggest storytelling components of the Arrowverse. Nearly every costumed character in the Arrowverse, in one way or another, is motivated by the dark moments of their past, and was given a set of circumstances that allowed them to rise above it and be a hero.

Just because Laurel's circumstances were different, just because she essentially fell victim to the Joker's "one bad day" principle, doesn't mean she's exempt from that.

And you know how we know that? Because of Earth-1 Laurel.

A lot can be said (as in, too much to write here) about the cards that Earth-1 Laurel was dealt over her Arrow tenure, and how some of the show's fans chose to respond to that. But Earth-1 Laurel rose up through a hell of lot, becoming a hero both in response to her latest bout of grief, and as a sort of response to the world around her.

Sure, the minutia of her and Earth-2 Laurel's lives might be different, but the sentiment is still the same. So while Black Siren hasn't had a perfect record over her Arrow tenure. But if she were to sit down and have a conversation with Earth-1 Laurel, odds are that Earth-1 Laurel would see the good in her, and would want to help her let her guard down and try to see the good in the world around her.

Redemption for Black Siren would not only hammer home one of the messages of this season (and of Arrow's entire tenure), but it would serve as justice for those who were badly burned by Earth-1 Laurel's death. And sure, we might not know what Laurel's redemption would ultimately look like, whether it's having her become a part of Team Arrow, having her go off and be a hero in another city, or having her join Legends of Tomorrow.But getting Laurel to that point would be a step in the right direction regardless.

Arrow airs Thursdays at 9/8c on The CW.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/03/01/arrow-season-6-black-siren-redemption-laurel-lance/

Edited March 1, 2018 by strikera0

Starfish35 · March 1, 2018

Every time someone suggests her joining Legends, I die a little bit inside. :(

Mellowyellow · March 1, 2018

5 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Every time someone suggests her joining Legends, I die a little bit inside. :(

I'm surprised they suggested LoT. They usually want her redeemed so that it can be Oliver n BS 4eva!!!!!

Arrow gets dumped with all the rejects so I think you'll be safe from her.

Starfish35 · March 1, 2018

I don't really think it'll ever happen. If they'd wanted her on the show, they could have worked out a crossover appearance this season. But, as someone else here said not too long ago, I've given up trying to make definitive statements about what they will or will not do with KC. Well. Except that they would put any version of Laurel back with Oliver. I do still feel fairly secure in making that statement. :) Lol!

Mellowyellow · March 1, 2018

I do think she'll stay on Arrow until the end of it's run since they can't get rid of her. It seems like they need to employ her for "reasons" and dumped her back on Arrow. Putting her on LoT would require actually caring about her and making effort.

insomniadreams88 · March 1, 2018

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More often than not, she has been an adversary of Team Arrow

"More often than not"? I have yet to see a time when she's not Team Arrow's enemy. Not killing a man who looks like her father does not count.

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Laurel's redemption has been teased more and more, with Quentin introducing aspects of Earth-1 Laurel's life to her, and Laurel offering to essentially sacrifice herself during the villain team's standoff with Cayden.

First of all, "Quentin introducing aspects of Earth-1 Laurel's life to her" just sounds so creepy considering the last scene of 613 and his whole "she's my daughter!"

Second, I still don't see BS' move in 613 as her "offering to essentially sacrifice herself," but I am surprised by how many people have automatically assumed that.

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Okay, so let's talk about the elephant in the Arrow Cave - Laurel having a hand in killing Vincent Sobel/Vigilante (Johann Urb) in "All For Nothing". While Laurel has killed or injured an array of people over her Arrowverse tenure, this particular scene rubbed quite a few Arrow fans the wrong way, and led to some arguing that Laurel is too far gone to become a hero.

So, let's put aside whether or not Laurel wanted to kill Vigilante, as an argument can be made that she was essentially being forced to by Cayden. You know what Arrow has proved, time and time again? That killing someone - even a supporting character who some were invested in - does not make you irredeemable.

Almost everyone on Team Arrow has notable deaths under their belt for one reason or another, whether it be Felicity Smoak's Havenrock, John Diggle's time in the military, or Dinah Drake's quest for revenge when she thought Vince had initially died. Heck, most fans have lost track of the number of people Oliver Queen has killed over Arrow's past six years.

Again, what about everyone she killed before Vince - as in, the people she killed when she didn't have to and Cayden James was telling her not to?

Also, stop making Cayden James so powerful - he was a hacker. BS is a meta - who can kill someone who heals. There is no way that Cayden should be able to force BS to do anything, and if you want to root for BS in even the slightest way, that's where your head should be.

Don't even get me started on Havenrock and Diggle's time in the military being mentioned here.

Morrigan2575 · March 1, 2018

I laughed and closed out after the Fan Favorite comment. She's really not unless you're hanging out at Reddit.

Oh she's not massively hated like LL was but, not being hated, doesn't make you a fan favorite. Cold/Heatwave, Cisco, Felicity, Huntress are fan favorites...Black Siren is mostly regarded (and I'm not talking about here) as a whatever, she's there.

bijoux · March 1, 2018

@insomniadreams88, kudos on powering through that. I noped out as soon as I sawhow long the article was.

catrox14 · March 1, 2018

I love opinion pieces that rely on strawman arguments, false equivalencies, and ignoring facts in the show to support their theory.

What pisses me off the most is the damage this SL does to Quentin Lance. And why folks don't see this as a sign that Quentin needs a little bit of counseling and why his actions are bad for him tells me just how much they don't care about entirety of the SL.

I hope it turns out to Quentin's long good bye to Laurel.. That maybe this will be what finally gets him to see that Black Siren is not his daughter, deserves no redemption and needs to be away from the show.

lemotomato · March 1, 2018

That article just proves people who want BS's redemption don't understand or care about E1 LL/BC. I don't understand how anyone who truly liked LL/BC saying that her journey and struggles are equivalent to that of someone that willingly and repeatedly murdered innocent people in cold blood, even after her boss told her it was unnecessary. (All the people using "but Cayden James told her to kill!" as a defense conveniently forget about the security guard in 604.)

Edited March 1, 2018 by lemotomato

insomniadreams88 · March 1, 2018

I doubt anyone who writes any of these "BS should be redeemed!" articles would even give BS a second thought if E1 LL was brought back somehow, even if it made no sense.

statsgirl · March 1, 2018

8 hours ago, strikera0 said:

Almost everyone on Team Arrow has notable deaths under their belt for one reason or another, whether it be Felicity Smoak's Havenrock, John Diggle's time in the military, or Dinah Drake's quest for revenge when she thought Vince had initially died. Heck, most fans have lost track of the number of people Oliver Queen has killed over Arrow's past six years.

I wish they would stop the "Felicity couldn't save everyone DD tried to kill" = "Felicity kills people". IT'S NOT THE SAME THING.

3 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Also, stop making Cayden James so powerful - he was a hacker. BS is a meta - who can kill someone who heals. There is no way that Cayden should be able to force BS to do anything, and if you want to root for BS in even the slightest way, that's where your head should be.

I assume that the writers wanted to put in hints that BS isn't completely evil so they can keep toying with the idea of redemption for her but there's no way Cayden James could have forced her to kill Vince if she didn't want to.

tv echo · March 1, 2018

I can't agree with this IGN guy. It sounds like he thinks Oliver should've stopped being the Green Arrow permanently this season, while letting other characters on the show still run around as costumed superheroes. But if Oliver stops being the Green Arrow, then I can't see this show continuing. He then compares Arrow to Black Lightning, but Jefferson Pierce is a costumed superhero, so what is the IGN guy's point?...

ARROW NEEDS TO BECOME SOMETHING ELSE
BY JESSE SCHEEDEN 1 MAR 2018
http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/03/01/arrow-needs-to-become-something-else

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There's no denying the impact Arrow has had over the past six years, paving the way for an entire shared superhero universe and helping The CW transition into the genre show-driven network it is today. But that being said, Arrow has often been the weakest link in the larger "Arrowverse" in recent years. That's certainly the case right now, with Season 6 likely to go down as the show's worst year yet. It's become increasingly clear over the past few months that the long-running show needs some fundamental changes if it's going to survive much longer. Much like Oliver Queen, Arrow needs to become something else.
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Arrow reached a pivotal moment when Season 5 started in 2016. At that point, the show had delivered two bad seasons in a row and really needed to do something to win back wary fans. Season 5 generally succeeded in that goal, some missteps notwithstanding. Above all, the series benefited from the intense rivalry between Stephen Amell's Oliver Queen and Josh Segarra's Adrian Chase. Season 5 culminated in the series' best episode to date, leaving viewers and Ollie reeling as Chase carried out his final plan and destroyed Lian Yu with most of Team Arrow still on site.

That cliffhanger should have been all the momentum Season 6 needed to start strong and build a compelling new status quo for Team Arrow. Above all, it allowed for Arrow to become a much different show than it was in its first five seasons. The show had wrapped up its five-year flashback storyline and no longer needed to look to the past for its villains and challenges for Oliver Queen. Chase's final attack seemingly ensured there would be major collateral damage. Team Arrow, assuming it even still existed, would be a far different group than it was before.

Except none of that actually happened when Season 6 premiered last fall. Apart from one minor character, every member of Team Arrow survived what seemed like an impossible death trap. It wasn't long before the series settled right back into its usual pattern of slowly establishing a new threat to Star City, one with a personal grudge against Oliver Queen. Arrow had the chance to reinvent itself in a dramatic way. Instead, it settled for recycling old tropes and rapidly undoing all of the goodwill it had restored during Season 5.
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To be fair, Season 6 has made a few interesting changes to the usual status quo. Ollie is currently struggling with the pressures of being a father and trying to give his son the life he deserves, while still being the protector Star City needs. Early on this season, Ollie even flirted with the idea of retiring his hood and allowing John Diggle to take over. But once again, the show failed to take advantage of a major plot development and see it through to its natural conclusion. Ollie hanging up the hood would have been the perfect way for the series to move forward from its original five-year cycle, but things didn't play out that way.
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The best thing Arrow can do now is move away from the supervillain-dominated conflicts of the past and toward storylines that test Ollie in other ways. Between Deathstroke and Prometheus, it feels like the show has peaked as far as costumed villlains go. Season 6 is clearly suffering from a case of diminishing returns with its ensemble villain cast. Why does every season of every Arrowverse show need to boil down to a bitter rivalry between a hero and a villain? What's wrong with thinking outside the box for a change? Ollie is both mayor of a major metropolitan city and a father raising a son whose existence he only discovered a couple years ago. There's plenty of room for conflict and character drama that doesn't involve costumed villains seeking revenge for the murder of a loved one.
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... The series needs to lean more heavily into elements like Ollie's political career and fatherhood woes. It needs to worry less about supervillains and more about the challenges of truly trying to fix a city many believe to be beyond repair. Saving Star City needs to be about more than simply stopping whatever villain happens to be trying to blow it up in any given year.

None of this is to say Arrow shouldn't still be a superhero series with costumes and martial arts sequences. No one is asking Arrow to suddenly become The Wire. But if Black Lightning has proven anything in its short run so far, it's that you can craft a superhero show with a clear political message and where the hero's personal rivalries are secondary to his relationship with the people he protects. We can only hope that Arrow will take Black Lightning's example to heart and transform itself in Season 7 in ways it failed to do in Season 6.

Edited March 1, 2018 by tv echo

thegirlsleuth · March 1, 2018

I think I agree with the Schneeden article because of the last three paragraphs. I'd love it if the show was more like Black Lightning and less like the Flash. Arrow did a nice job of balancing it in the first few seasons but now it seems like Oliver only has relationships with other masked characters. Personally, I think it could have been interesting to only have Anatoly as a villain this season. He could have been a nice counter to Oliver as Green Arrow but also as mayor if he brought organized crime into Star City. They could have build a whole season around that dichotomy, with periodic breaks for villains of the week.

Of course I've learned to lower my expectations a lot when it comes to Arrow's storytelling.

apinknightmare · March 1, 2018

13 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I think I agree with the Schneeden article because of the last three paragraphs. I'd love it if the show was more like Black Lightning and less like the Flash. Arrow did a nice job of balancing it in the first few seasons but now it seems like Oliver only has relationships with other masked characters. Personally, I think it could have been interesting to only have Anatoly as a villain this season. He could have been a nice counter to Oliver as Green Arrow but also as mayor if he brought organized crime into Star City. They could have build a whole season around that dichotomy, with periodic breaks for villains of the week.

Of course I've learned to lower my expectations a lot when it comes to Arrow's storytelling.

I'm with you.

I think the greatest disservice TPTB did to the show was have Oliver lose his wealth and his company. It gave a reason for Oliver to be social, and made Star City feel like an actual place that we could be invested in him saving. It was a place that existed outside his small circle of friends/partners. They had a chance to get some of that back with Oliver as the Mayor, but we rarely see him with his constituents (and when we do - like with his few big outings as mayor this season - it's mainly focused on the team around him because it's part of a mission or fact-finding trip). It doesn't help that Oliver's either wanted to or had to quit being the Arrow/Green Arrow at least once a season over the past 4 years - it leaves the audience with the notion that he isn't particularly invested in saving it the way we're meant to believe he is (and the way he should be if we're going to root for him).

ETA: Oliver's identity nearly being exposed all the time doesn't help either.

Edited March 1, 2018 by apinknightmare

lemotomato · March 1, 2018

I wonder how Jesse's article was received by IGN's "Arrow is a superhero show, not a drama! We want more fights and killing!" audience.

bijoux · March 1, 2018

Because of the way they're not using Oliver's office as a chance to meet other people, I don't think him still being in charge of QC would help much either. Really, being the mayor should open him up for various interactions just as much, if not more. There's his staff, council people, constituents, other public servants. There's thing to be mined here, if only there is the will to do it. Instead, when these people do show up, they're barely more than extras.

I mean, since DDDragon apperently now has most public officials in his pocket, including the new police chief, maybe something could happen on that front, but I'm not holding my breath.

apinknightmare · March 1, 2018

24 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Because of the way they're not using Oliver's office as a chance to meet other people, I don't think him still being in charge of QC would help much either. Really, being the mayor should open him up for various interactions just as much, if not more. There's his staff, council people, constituents, other public servants. There's thing to be mined here, if only there is the will to do it. Instead, when these people do show up, they're barely more than extras.

True. What I was getting at is along the lines of they can do it, they did do it, and for whatever reason they aren't doing it anymore (I'm guessing the lost company and money issues have something to do with budget and sets, but still).

statsgirl · March 2, 2018

I don't think that they're interested in exploring mayor type stories. They're missing every opportunity. Apparently the Flash is the template for the Arrowverse.

3 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I'd love it if the show was more like Black Lightning and less like the Flash. Arrow did a nice job of balancing it in the first few seasons but now it seems like Oliver only has relationships with other masked characters.

I love Black Lightning now but let's see how well it is going five seasons from now. It's tough to be able to keep being exciting after six years (just as anyone in a relationship).

Black Lightning also has an advantage in that it has a built-in political reality. From the first episode when the cops stopped Jefferson and slammed him on the hood of his car because a black man robbed a liquor store, it has a natural advantage that Arrow has to create for itself.

tv echo · March 2, 2018

Ouch - A.V. Club reviewer gave 614 a grade of D+ (I couldn't quote the entire article, so I recommend reading it)...

A frustrating Arrow attempts to fix a bad story by doubling down
Allison Shoemaker March 1, 2018
https://www.avclub.com/a-frustrating-arrow-attempts-to-fix-a-bad-story-by-doub-1823451583

Quote

For my money, the issue is a lack of thought. This is the episode to which the whole Team Arrow/Team Not-Arrow arc has been building, a story that showed promise but which has been badly bungled. Reaching this crisis point, the writers of Arrow chose not to course correct, or to build to anything resembling a satisfying conclusion. They don’t even build to an unsatisfying one. Instead, they do what they’ve done all season. Team Not-Arrow gets righteously indignant, while displaying absolutely no self-awareness about some deep-rooted hypocrisy; Team Arrow talks a good game about accepting responsibility, then shrugs as though there’s nothing they can do about it.

There’s a moment that fairly neatly sums up this borderline incomprehensible feud, rife as it is with double-standards, short memories, and baffling choices. It’s when Rene states calmly that it seems like Oliver wants to fight deep down, that he’s waiting for one of them to throw a punch. Oliver walks away, so Rene shoves him. The fact that it’s a shove of secrets actually makes the foolishness that much more delicious. Team Not-Arrow loves to talk about how different it is from Team Arrow; in this episode, they actually tell Dinah she’s being too much like Oliver. But there’s not one thing that they’re doing that’s better or less dysfunctional, and what makes that so frustrating is that the show doesn’t even seem to recognize that fact.

My sincere hope is that I’m wrong about that. It’s possible that the Arrow writing staff knows exactly what they’re doing, and that this is all a part of some big deconstruction of the troubling elements of this show we’re mostly asked to ignore. But I doubt it, and there are two reasons. The first is that the moment that’s written like the emotional climax of Dinah’s arc, her decision to not kill Not-Laurel, doesn’t even hint at that level of commentary. Curtis’s appeal is an earnest one. The second is that the episode’s climax hinges entirely on Team Not-Arrow deciding to finally sever ties with Team Arrow, despite the fact that Rene’s injuries are the result of a fight that both teams entered into willingly. It’s a scene that screams “this is damage that can’t be undone!” but the teams could spend 20 minutes with a half-decent therapist and all manner of things could get sorted.
* * *
Actually, there’s one more reason that one’s hopes might not be high, and coincidentally, it’s another situation that’s just screaming for therapy. It’s the idea that all that Not-Laurel needs to make her “good” again, to redeem her, is a daddy. There are perhaps more eloquent ways to say this, but in short, that is gross. It’s possible that there’s a way to do a redemption arc for Laurel that centers on Quentin without descending into the nightmarescape of the poor sad bad girl who just needs a father figure to make her feel special and loved before she can rise like an angelic, kind-hearted but probably winningly damaged phoenix, but whether or not it’s possible no longer matters. This is what they’re doing, so this is what we get.

In an episode that actually asks us to buy “you’ve been looking for a daddy for a long time” as a reason that Not-Laurel murders people, it’s perhaps not wrong to consider whether other big plot-shaping moments are similarly empty. It’s an episode in which a character we’ve come to love holds a woman hostage because she looks just like his daughter, and an episode in which that former cop, and another current cop, and a bunch of highly-trained people do not even attempt to interrogate the person who apparently has control of $70 million. It’s an episode in which a brilliant woman hacks the records of an offshore bank, but in which that same brilliant woman does not attempt to find where all that money is being kept.