The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[Hiveminder]

3 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Exactly if he leaves over that it will Bethe most contrived shit since BMD. If its that much of an issue they can job share or began work towards making Spartan just as iconic. Whilst I'm sure it will come up again it didn't seem to be a huge deal anyway.

I agree I think reviewer is seeing her through a little woman lenses and yes lot of fanboys turned on her when her storyline was apart or in disagreement to Oliver. "How dare this non comic character become upity and a longterm love interest!" ? Iris is getting the same treatment in places for daring to say "we are the Flash" and organising the team. 

Yes, uppity is a perfect word for how I think anti-Felicity people view her. 

[tv echo]

Hah!...

Who Was the Biggest 'Arrow' Hero in 'We Fall'? 
Friday, January 26, 2018   Laurel Brown
http://home.buddytv.com/articles/arrow/who-was-the-biggest-arrow-hero-67454.aspx

Quote

WHO WAS THE BIGGEST HERO IN "DIVIDED"?
Someone else     50%
Oliver                  25%
William                25%
Dinah                    0%
Lance and Thea     0%
Diggle                   0%

Total Votes: 16

Edited January 27, 2018 by tv echo

[KenyaJ]

“Someone else.” JFC. 

[Angel12d]

Why does Lance and Thea get a category but Felicity doesn't? ??

[Featherhat]

No bias there then, clearly. ? Someone else WTF? No one has to vote for Felicity or think she's them MVP/hero here, but not even to give her a category whilst even "Thea and Lance's" bureaucratic efforts are acknowledged.....

Edited January 27, 2018 by Featherhat

[SmallScreenDiva]

What happened to Laurel Brown? She used to be pretty pro Felicity/Olicity. 

[thegirlsleuth]

I find it even funnier since she calls Felicity out for praise in the article above.  What a weirdo. 

[WindofChange]

Can I just say I'm loving all the praise Emily has been getting the past week? From her role in Funny Story to her performance in Arrow this week, Emily has really grown stronger as an actress and I admire the dedication she has towards honing her skills considering she still takes acting lessons, which I feel like that's something a lot of the actors in DCTV should do. 

[kes0704]

I will never understand the levels to which some reviewers dismiss or hate Felicity as a part of the story.  It some cases the criticism she gets is outlandishly large when matched to the inconsequential things she supposedly does that “irritate” them (i.e. behave like someone with human emotions would).

Edited January 27, 2018 by kes0704

[Angel12d]

I just don't understand why they wouldn't include her because ignoring her creates more fuss? It's the same with the CW Arrow/writers accounts who just RT everything but things involving Felicity/EBR. If they were all equal and not biased, no one would say anything? But they're not so Felicity fans, rightfully, get annoyed and then ask questions and that often snowballs into a bigger issue. It's like when the WB posted that OTA picture that included Dinah and tagged JH but didn't include Felicity or EBR and everyone was like WTF?! Just include everyone and make things equal, FFS, and there wouldn't be a problem. ?

Edited January 27, 2018 by Angel12d

[SmallScreenDiva]

36 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I just don't understand why they wouldn't include her because ignoring her creates more fuss? It's the same with the CW Arrow/writers accounts who just RT everything but things involving Felicity/EBR. If they were all equal and not biased, no one would say anything? But they not so Felicity fans, rightfully, get annoyed and then ask questions and that often snowballs into a bigger issue. It's like when the WB posted that OTA picture that included Dinah and tagged JH but didn't include Felicity or EBR and everyone was like WTF?! Just include everyone and make things equal, FFS, and there wouldn't be a problem. ?

Seriously. A friend is on a tear about this right now. She has social media managing experience (plus graphics, editing, marketing, etc.) so everything the official accounts do is infuriating her right now. Now @quarks mentioned that JH getting tagged by WB could be an automated Twitter thing, but they still didn't include Felicity in the photos and as pointed out Twitter allows for up to 4 photos.

Spiro, one of the writers of the episode, was asked for a Felicity tease and came back with a response about an "electrifying" opening — it was, but again, it had nothing to do with Felicity. It's like they go out of their way NOT to talk about her. Which is stupid because she's definitely one of the most popular characters on the show — Internet haters can go sit down.

They have time to RT artwork featuring BC but none of the hundreds of Olicity fanart submitted for Fanart Friday? No Felicity? No OTA only? Are you fucking kidding me? A simple RT of any of the Slamdance posts featuring Emily would have been nice but nada. The most egregious snub is Stephen's tweet about Emily's performance in the last episode. The Arrow writers acount, the writers' personal accounts, Beth Schwartz who is usually supportive of Felicity/Emily, the official Arrow account — NONE OF THEM retweeted or liked Stephen's tweet. 

Now, when KC was still a real regular character, I get that Chico was protecting her friend. So now, is this WB pushing the daughter of one of its execs and making it a mandate to promote her only?

Oh, and apparently someone posted a clip of the newbies on the Arrow Tumblr account and even after a full day it only has less than 30 notes. Pathetic.

Inquiring minds want to know.  

Edited January 27, 2018 by SmallScreenDiva

[quarks]

35 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I just don't understand why they wouldn't include her because ignoring her creates more fuss? It's the same with the CW Arrow/writers accounts who just RT everything but things involving Felicity/EBR. If they were all equal and not biased, no one would say anything? But they not so Felicity fans, rightfully, get annoyed and then ask questions and that often snowballs into a bigger issue. It's like when the WB posted that OTA picture that included Dinah and tagged JH but didn't include Felicity or EBR and everyone was like WTF?! Just include everyone and make things equal, FFS, and there wouldn't be a problem. ?

Eh. I'll kinda counter that by noting that from their perspective, someone like Juliana Harvaky needs more promotion than EBR does. EBR is getting regular magazine covers and indy films, for instance, and has far more Twitter followers.  She also gets longer lines at cons and so on. So I can see the CW and affiliated folks giving Juliana Harvaky and Rick Gonzalez more promo because they're trying to be equal and not biased - giving them this Twitter promotion to make up for their lack of promotion elsewhere.

It's also very probable that this is directly written into their contracts - the actors generally agree to use their social media accounts to promote the show, in return for promotional consideration from the network/studio. The actors get paid when they appear on billboards, for instance - and at this point, Stephen Amell, certainly, can demand more money for the use of his likeness on billboards than Echo Kellum can.  Given the clearly limited promotional budget these shows are working with, it's entirely possible that some of this really is just a semi-strategic use of limited funds.

Also, let's not underestimate the fact that the CW in general is not very good at this.  I was genuinely shocked by how few people seemed to know about Black Lightning at the con last weekend - a group of genuinely geeky people. And yet. It's definitely not just an Arrowverse or EBR problem - if you need more proof, look at Valor's numbers.  I fully agree that the CW is not doing much to capitalize on EBR's popularity (or, Olicity's popularity, or Karamel's popularity, or....) but I think this is less unfairness and more incompetence.

Edited January 27, 2018 by quarks

[Angel12d]

I truly don't think it's anything to do with EBR not needing promo or twitter followers but that's just IMO. And it also doesn't explain why they've always been like this, even when the newbies weren't on the show. I mean, for a time there the CW Arrow account was basically KC's second account with the amount of things they RT'd from her. ?

From where I'm sitting it's like they go out of their way not to include Felicity/EBR. I know I'm not the only fan who feels there's a bias in the way they handle things. 

I do agree that the CW is terrible at this kind of thing though. SO BAD. It's incredibly frustrating because it's so easy to fix. So you totally have a point about incompetence but I can't help but think there's more at play there. And I wouldn't think that if they were a bit more equal. They can give the newbies more promo but at least act like EBR/Felicity exists maybe?

Edited January 27, 2018 by Angel12d

[Mary0360]

I feel like it shouldn't be that complicated for them to retweet a tweet from their lead actor and star that praises Emily when they have retweeted or interacted with Kirk Acevedo, a semi inconsequential character in the universe at the moment, and the newbies who are also lower on the totem pole then Stephen in terms of roles in the verse and popularity. 

 

But I don't have social media marketing experience so maybe it is. Either way agree on the incompetence thing. It seems the CW put more effort into promoting Riverdale season 2 then they did in launching the premiere of Black Lightning. The money they spent on that lack lustre Superhero fight club promo should have been spent on Black Lightning instead, for instance.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Mary0360

[Chaser]

Can I agree with both?

I think the CW is awful at promo. Specifically with Arrow, I think they have a marketing strategy that runs counter to common sense (i.e. All masks/actions instead of using Olicity/Felicity). Constantly promo characters that a year and a half later after introduction still aren't gaining significant traction, instead of spreading out the promo. 

However, I think a case can be made for some bias. The recent tweet from SA about 6x11 being ignored. EBR doing a slew of press before the big Crossover in S4 and the CW twitter only retweeting KCs response to a compliment EBR give her. SA posting a pic with KC for the 100th and it being retweeting in less than 5. He posts a pic with EBR and the account doesn't retweet for like two days. 

I mean Chico plays a big role and her Arrow tweeting was one comment on Felicity/Olicity and five about KC/Laurel/BC. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Chaser

[Hiveminder]

44 minutes ago, quarks said:

Eh. I'll kinda counter that by noting that from their perspective, someone like Juliana Harvaky needs more promotion than EBR does. EBR is getting regular magazine covers and indy films, for instance, and has far more Twitter followers. 

Well, it sucks for JH if she's not as popular as EBR, but shouldn't they be more concerned with promoting the show, not individual actors? They're supposed to be getting people excited about watching the show. EBR can do that. 

[kes0704]

I do think there is a level of incompetence at play in the way the CW market and promote their shows, but I think there comes a point where you do have to wonder if something more is going on. 

Completely ignoring Stephen’s tweet about Emily’s performance was kind of blatant, which is why people started to question it.  It’s not possible that they didn’t see it based on the number of people I saw tweeting the show and writer accounts asking why they were ignoring it, it had to have been popping up a lot. 

The overload of promo for JH, RG, EK and KC is having the reverse effect on me from what they probably intend because the more they are pushed on me, the more annoyed I become with their characters. ?‍♀️

Edited January 27, 2018 by kes0704
Spelling

[Featherhat]

I do find the Arrow writers and CW writers reaction to all things Felicity /EBR baffling, even if they are trying to big up the nooks.  It was especially weird with Tinah tagged as OTA during a storyline where they are specifically OTA V NoTA, even if it was automated tagging. And to not retweet SA'S entirely correct praise for an awesome speech you guys wrote that is deservedly getting praise from almost anyone? I don't think they hate Felicity or Emily but it's strange. The only thing I can think of is the obsession with masks and being afraid of the because comics reaction online (and then writing a heavily pro Olicity season).

Then again it also does make me paranoid about stuff behind the scenes, so I really hope there are no problems.

Going by the writing recently I'd have said they hated the boobs bit I don't think that's the case either.

Is JH the daughter of a WB exec? Personally I think they're past the point of making JH as BC happen any more than she currently is and I don't think her argument with Oliver next week is going to have people saying "clearly she should co lead the team, become the lead after SA leaves or headline a BOP spin off!"

As for TV site polls I now find it hilarious (and sad because it shows how pathetic they are) that everyone knew exactly who "someone else" is code for and that she's winning by miles because they sure didn't mean Pike and hrs the only other one not to be mentioned by name. It's particularly transparent because Thea and Lance's civic heroics are specifically labelled whereas the lady giving the speech of the entire series is not.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Featherhat

[thegirlsleuth]

Regarding the WB's failed OTA tweet, I think it happened  because they only used pictures from that episode.  Felicity wasn't in any of the pictures, so they should not have used the phrase OTA.

And this is purely my speculation, but there's some issue between Emily and Arrow PR that worsened during the hiatus between season 4 and 5. This belief is not based on the CW's accounts, which have always ignored Emily, but rather the change in Emily's behavior, because during that time Emily stopped mentioning Arrow at all on her social media, something that continues until today. She was generous with her social media the year before, not just Echo and Charlotte but the Kamily thing, which was clearly orchestrated (I'm not saying their friendship was orchestrated but rather the public display of their friendship was orchestrated). I don't think it totally can be attributed to the fact that Emily doesn't need the promo, mostly because they continue to give Katie Cassidy promo, and she doesn't need it either.  

I also think Amell went into overdrive with promoting his friendship with Emily as well as Emily as a person starting last spring when he realized that Emily wasn't going to do any promo related to Arrow.  Again, I think they are genuinely good friends, it's just the public face of their friendship changed because that's the only way he could get promo for Felicity and Olicity.  I also think its interesting that he all but ignores the newbies on social media.

Edited January 27, 2018 by thegirlsleuth

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Eh. I'll kinda counter that by noting that from their perspective, someone like Juliana Harvaky needs more promotion than EBR does.

OK, let's say EBR doesn't need as much promotion. But Stephen's tweet about her performance in an episode of the show, that's promotion for the show, not just EBR. I'm assuming they still want people to tune in, right? I get the Arrow account being incompetent, but all across the board? None of the Arrow writers or the account can care enough to RT it? It's 1 click.

[WindofChange]

I think it's obvious that there's a dissonance between the marketing and what actually happens on the shows. We know that the CW values EBR/Felicity/Olicity because of the amount of content they get on the show as well as the crossovers. We know they value EBR/Felicity/Olicity because of how Berlanti as well as the actors in DCTV talk about her. It's just jarring to see the marketing not capture this... I do think there are a lot of things at play here: Incompetence, lack of budget to spend to focus on the characters/actors that get free publicity, and bias... But for me it's hard to say what it is specifically.

But one thing for sure is that they need better more creative interns. The ones who run DCTV accounts are just not fun.

Edited January 27, 2018 by WindofChange

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Also, let's not underestimate the fact that the CW in general is not very good at this. 

And if whoever is handling this is truly that incompetent, why haven't they been fired or at the very least, trained ... again? Or have TPTB not noticed or just don't care how much money they might be leaving on the table. Because I imagine there might be some effect on the bottom line. (like them not selling Olicity merchandise when vendors/artists like Lord Mesa are selling out at cons)

19 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Regarding the WB's failed OTA tweet, I think it happened  because they only used pictures from that episode.  Felicity wasn't in any of the pictures, so they should not have used the phrase OTA.

This is another example of incompetence. Felicity was in that episode quite a bit and had a pretty big speech that ended up being the most talked about thing after the episode and the morning after. And yet no one gave PR a heads-up that this was going to be a significant scene so they could take at least 1 photo. So the next day Curtis photo is used as the image for articles that are mostly about Emily and Felicity, facepalm. I sure as hell was not gonna click until I saw screen caps on Twitter.

[calliope1975]

Have the EPs usually been this silent on episodes? Maybe it's because the content typically annoyed me, but I remember a lot more Producer Previews coming out last year. But I could also have imagined it, and they just do promo for big eps like the mid-season and finales. 

I'm still trying to figure out how TPTB want me to think of the split teams and a comment or two from MG/WM would help. Though being MG/WM, it would probably give me a rage blackout. 

[tv echo]

Arrow Review: We Fall (Season 6 Episode 11)
January 26, 2018  Brianna Martinez
https://www.telltaletv.com/2018/01/arrow-review-we-fall-season-6-episode-11/

Quote

Arrow makes a case against the Internet of Things and highlights the heart of the show on Arrow Season 6 Episode 11, “We Fall.”

There’s something to be said when, even in the midst of the plot moving forward, there is some time to slow down and do some really good character work by bringing in moments that just make your heart melt. “We Fall” has more than a few of those.
*  *  *
That confirmation hits William hard, and as he struggles with it for the better part of the hour, it highlights opportunities to really show how deep of a partnership Oliver and Felicity have when it comes to every aspect of their lives together.
*  *  *
It’s rewarding to see how the pair deal with the co-parenting aspect of their relationship. There’s actual communication and support in all of those heartwarming moments, from the pep talk Felicity gives Oliver to talk to his son to the family meeting Oliver calls at the end of the episode.

It takes a moment in the middle of Oliver, Diggle, and the newbies out in the field and Felicity explaining the toll the superhero life they lead takes on their normal lives and relationships to make them realize how precious all of those moments are.

Quote

Felicity: This is what he does best, and nobody does it better…This life is not ideal. But he makes his sacrifices, so we have to make ours…because that’s the price we pay for choosing the people that we love.

Felicity’s voice over as everyone is out in the field is a new kind of scene for Arrow. One that hasn’t been done and definitely adds a depth to it that makes it one of the highlights of the episode.
*  *  *
It’s a scene that highlights not only the history of her relationship with Oliver (I mean, that line about falling in love with him the moment he brought her the laptop) and how she looks at things from her point of view on the team, but also the sacrifices made by everyone.
*  *  *
But, it’s not just the Queen-Smoak family moments but also the return of the Delicity (Diggle/Felicity) moments that make this episode quickly rise to one of my favorite of the season.

The trust and confidence in each other shine through as Diggle worries about returning to his hood duties (even though he gets an impressive Spartan suit upgrade) and Felicity worries about her stepmom duties, which is so adorable.

FYI, here's the same writer's review of 610...

Arrow Review: Divided (Season 6 Episode 10)
January 19, 2018  Brianna Martinez
https://www.telltaletv.com/2018/01/arrow-review-divided-season-6-episode-10/ 

Quote

OTA has had years to work through their issues of trust, decision-making, and all-around team building. The newbies haven’t been around long enough, and their decision to just walk away from the team despite Oliver’s apology and offer to start over with a blank slate (hello, character growth!) is proof of how far they still have to go. It’s clear that the newbies still have a lot of growing up to do with the way they handled both encounters with OTA.

Edited January 27, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

^^^ And's here's another article by the same writer (published during the winter break)...

Arrow Season 6 Mid-Season Report: What’s Worked and What Hasn’t
December 17, 2017  Brianna Martinez
https://www.telltaletv.com/2017/12/arrow-season-6-mid-season-report-whats-worked-and-what-hasnt/

Quote

But it is a perfect time to take stock of what’s happened in the first nine episodes of Arrow Season 6, what’s worked, what hasn’t, and what hopefully will be coming in the back half of the season.
*  *  *
What’s Worked
...
After seasons of waiting, it finally happened; we finally got to see the result of the hard lessons Oliver had to learn over the years, and it’s paid off so well.
...
Seeing how Oliver’s approached everything from his relationship with William and Felicity to how he’s dealt with handing down the hood to Diggle and the fallout of having to assume it again has been so refreshing after waiting so long to see any signs of growth from him for the last few years.
...
The development of Felicity and William’s relationship mixed nicely with Oliver and Felicity’s rekindled romance. It felt like they learned from their past mistakes and took those lessons to heart the second time around to make for a stronger foundation for their relationship.

Their trust and open communication in the first batch of episodes made their impromptu wedding and reception feel like earned moments for the pair, celebrating how far they’ve come.
*  *  *
What (Kind Of) Hasn’t Worked
...
Cayden James’ motivations felt a little lackluster coming off a season where Prometheus had a somewhat similar motive for absolutely destroying Oliver’s life. The villainous roundup James amassed to ruin Team Arrow was smart though, and that could be a great way to shake things up.
...
I’m reluctant to put Diggle’s story here, though. It’s not that it hasn’t worked. It’s more like it just needs to be fleshed out a bit more. It was great that his injury and his secret keeping allowed for some exploration of how vigilante life affects Diggle and his loved ones, but his explanation for why he accepted Oliver’s request to take on the Green Arrow mantle felt like something was lacking.
*  *  *
Hopes For Season 6b

With the official introduction to Cayden James and the evil team up teased at the end of the mid-season finale, hopefully, there’s more to come that can still surprise like Prometheus did last season. With each member of the team facing their own villain (or so it seems), that must mean that James is Felicity’s villain this season. Right?

Now that there is a fracture within the team and Original Team Arrow and New Team Arrow have chosen sides, further development of Helix Dynamics will be exciting to see. The idea of seeing the company develop was an appealing idea for a story on its own, but with the added conflict, it will add something more to that could have farther reaching effects for both Curtis and Felicity.

Edited January 27, 2018 by tv echo

[strikera0]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

Is JH the daughter of a WB exec? 

JH's dad used to be Senior Vice President of International Content and Creative Affairs for Warner Bros, but that was almost 20 years ago. I doubt that he still wields much influence there. 

[statsgirl]

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

-- Kyle wondered what it will take to bring the two teams back together and said that he missed having everyone together on one team. But Natalie liked the two teams and wondered if Diggle might move over to the newbies' team. She also thought that Oliver might ultimately decide to hang up the hood and let others take over.*

(* I don't know why Natalie even bothers to watch Arrow. She seems awfully eager to get rid of Oliver and have someone else take over as the lead superhero on Arrow.)

LOL, Oliver is a lost cause now that he's married Felicity so Diggle might as well join the other team and Oliver can hang up his bow forever.  I really can't see Team Pissy accepting Diggle to boss them though. and ex-miliat

I don't understand why it's a bad thing not knowing where Arrow is going this season.  Isn't that the point of TV shows (other than the geriatric ones on CBS), that you get surprised?

[quarks]

5 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

Well, it sucks for JH if she's not as popular as EBR, but shouldn't they be more concerned with promoting the show, not individual actors? They're supposed to be getting people excited about watching the show. EBR can do that. 

Again, though, it depends upon the contracts.

Most creative contracts have clauses stating that the studio/network will promote said work and compensate the actor/writer for said promotion. In some cases, actors/writers are now signing contracts where the studio guarantees that the actor will receive X amount of promotion. This is particularly done in cases where the pay is low. Hello, Arrow!

I'm going to use Juliana Harkavy as a specific example here. Given her resume, it's a very safe bet that she came in at scale. Based on how they are filming/using her, it's even possible that they are paying her at CW's weekly performer rates instead of main role performer rates - as well as using her to try to give Amell a bit of breathing room this season.  Since she had very little room to negotiate, her management presumably requested promotional consideration as partial compensation.  

So, yeah, promoting Harkavy may very well be based on a number of factors: 1) trying to be equitable with overall promotion (especially if the CW helped arrange for some of the magazine shoots for Amell and EBR), 2) fulfilling their side of the contract, thus ensuring that they don't have to waste time fending off irritated calls from Harkavy's management and ensuring that Harkavy doesn't launch a complaint, and 3) assuming that since people do go to the Marvel films which generally featuring people in masks running around hitting people, promoting a woman in a costume and a mask running around hitting people might work.

After all, in their defense, WB's best performing film last year, domestic and international, focused on a woman in a costume running around hitting people, and the overall best performing film of 2017 featured a woman doing martial arts with a glowing stick.

5 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

 (like them not selling Olicity merchandise when vendors/artists like Lord Mesa are selling out at cons)

 

That's largely on DC, and I will completely agree that it's inexplicable. Also inexplicable: the lack of T-shirts and authorized T-shirts. The online DC shop has a freaking body pillow, but not a single Team Arrow T-shirt or hoodie - an almost guaranteed sell.  Or the design they have for the Felicity mug on a T-shirt. And more Star Labs shirts in different colors, and some Team Legends stuff, and DEO hoodies. It's just not there, and I have no explanation whatsoever.  This stuff will sell - I've seen people specifically looking for Supergirl stuff in particular, especially Supergirl tween stuff. DC is genuinely failing to exploit a potential market here.

Edited January 28, 2018 by quarks

[Chaser]

Out of curiosity do you see bias for KC or against EBR in general?

With your experience, what would you contribute that to? 

[Hiveminder]

8 minutes ago, quarks said:

Again, though, it depends upon the contracts.

Most creative contracts have clauses stating that the studio/network will promote said work and compensate the actor/writer for said promotion. In some cases, actors/writers are now signing contracts where the studio guarantees that the actor will receive X amount of promotion. This is particularly done in cases where the pay is low. Hello, Arrow!

I'm going to use Juliana Harkavy as a specific example here. Given her resume, it's a very safe bet that she came in at scale. Based on how they are filming/using her, it's even possible that they are paying her at CW's weekly performer rates instead of main role performer rates - as well as using her to try to give Amell a bit of breathing room this season.  Since she had very little room to negotiate, her management presumably requested promotional consideration as partial compensation.  

So, yeah, promoting Harkavy may very well be based on a number of factors: 1) trying to be equitable with overall promotion (especially if the CW helped arrange for some of the magazine shoots for Amell and EBR), 2) fulfilling their side of the contract, thus ensuring that they don't have to waste time fending off irritated calls from Harva and ensuring that Harkavy doesn't launch a complaint, and 3) assuming that since people do go to the Marvel films which generally featuring people in masks running around hitting people, promoting a woman in a costume and a mask running around hitting people might work.

After all, in their defense, WB's best performing film last year, domestic and international, focused on a woman in a costume running around hitting people, and the overall best performing film of 2017 featured a woman doing martial arts with a glowing stick.

That's largely on DC, and I will completely agree that it's inexplicable. Also inexplicable: the lack of T-shirts and authorized T-shirts. The online DC shop has a freaking body pillow, but not a single Team Arrow T-shirt or hoodie - an almost guaranteed sell.  Or the design they have for the Felicity mug on a T-shirt. And more Star Labs shirts in different colors, and some Team Legends stuff, and DEO hoodies. It's just not there, and I have no explanation whatsoever.  This stuff will sell - I've seen people specifically looking for Supergirl stuff in particular, especially Supergirl tween stuff. DC is genuinely failing to exploit a potential market here.

That might explain why MY gets so much promotion, but it doesn't explain EBR's relative lack. It can't be that they spent so much on MY that there's no money left for EBR. One, she's the female lead and that would be a dumb thing to do to themselves. Two, Twitter is free.

[JamieLynn832002]

8 minutes ago, quarks said:

Or the design they have for the Felicity mug on a T-shirt. 

If you're talking about the IT Girl mug, it is available as t-shirt (or at least it was, I don't see it anymore but I'm literally wearing it right now so I know it was)

[KenyaJ]

Emily was one of the Honorable Mentions in TVLine's "Performer of the Week."

HONORABLE MENTION | Since her and Oliver’s impromptu wedding, Arrow hadn’t really given us Felicity as supportive wife/new stepmom, but Emily Bett Rickards made the wait very well worth it this week, as a crestfallen William needed parental guidance. As Felicity counseled Oliver, by pointing out that all she ever wanted from her (evil hacktivist) father was “the truth,” Rickards — with warm looks and her physicality — communicated the deepest connection ever between the newlyweds. And then there was her wonderful (and convincing) monologue, as Felicity and William eavesdropped on a Team Arrow op. “This is what [Oliver] does best — and nobody does it better,” Felicity explained. “So you can worry about your dad, but you have to believe that he’s going to be OK. Because that’s the only way this works.” And Felicity would know.

[lemotomato]

6 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

And this is purely my speculation, but there's some issue between Emily and Arrow PR that worsened during the hiatus between season 4 and 5. This belief is not based on the CW's accounts, which have always ignored Emily, but rather the change in Emily's behavior, because during that time Emily stopped mentioning Arrow at all on her social media, something that continues until today. 

Between seasons 4 and 5, EBR reduced her social media posting in general, not just mentions of Arrow. I suspect that had a lot to do with all the hate she was getting in the comments, which reached a fever pitch in the spring of season 4 and that summer. (It made me sick at heart to see comments on a post about her birthday accusing her of ruining Arrow and wishing horrible things to happen to her.) Even though she's been posting more often recently, most of the social media that she's in now is posted by her friends or the gym or her coworkers. 

5 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

This is another example of incompetence. Felicity was in that episode quite a bit and had a pretty big speech that ended up being the most talked about thing after the episode and the morning after. And yet no one gave PR a heads-up that this was going to be a significant scene so they could take at least 1 photo. So the next day Curtis photo is used as the image for articles that are mostly about Emily and Felicity, facepalm. I sure as hell was not gonna click until I saw screen caps on Twitter.

I forget who it was, but someone on the board explained that episode stills are taken by set photographers, who are only around on certain days. So they can only take pictures of whatever the show happens to be filming while they're there. If they weren't doing scenes with Felicity that day, she's not going to be in the stills. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by lemotomato

[quarks]

1 minute ago, Hiveminder said:

That might explain why MY gets so much promotion, but it doesn't explain EBR's relative lack. It can't be that they spent so much on MY that there's no money left for EBR. One, she's the female lead and that would be a dumb thing to do to themselves. Two, Twitter is free.

Twitter is free. However.  Using EBR's likeness might not be free - that is, for the official CW, WB, CBS and Arrow accounts. (Not that CBS is doing anything to promote Arrow apart from listing it in their quarterly reports as a "and this is also a thing that exists," but let us move on from that.) This is mostly because Hollywood is an industry that employs people whose faces are worth $100 million or so, or who think their faces are worth $100 million or so, and have set up things to exploit that.  Which means, generally speaking, the studio and the network have to pay each time they use an actor's likeness to promote the show, since they are using that likeness to sell their products.  For CW actors, it's usually around $1000 per use, though a few of them - Stephen Amell and Gina Rodriguez, certainly - may be charging a bit more.  

(This is different for fans - none of you are directly making any money from tweeting/retweeting images of EBR and/or Arrow; at most one or two of you might get an offer to write reviews of the show or create fan art or something, but that's not using EBR's image to directly promote your work. )  

So, although I really can't rule out incompetence, I also think there's more going on here than "fairness and bias" - there's contracts, fees, publicity agreements and so on. And also, incompetence. Let us not forget the incompetence! 

 

22 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

If you're talking about the IT Girl mug, it is available as t-shirt (or at least it was, I don't see it anymore but I'm literally wearing it right now so I know it was)

 

Proving my point. See? Arrow fans will buy this stuff! Except right now, they can't!

This is just inexplicable.

 

28 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Out of curiosity do you see bias for KC or against EBR in general?

With your experience, what would you contribute that to? 

 

I don't see any bias for or against EBR, though in my opinion they are not using her popularity as much as they could or should. 

The KC situation....let's just say that isn't typical.

 

2 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I forget who it was, but someone on the board explained that episode stills are taken by set photographers, who are only around on certain days. So they can only take pictures of whatever the show happens to be filming while they're there. If they weren't doing scenes with Felicity that day, she's not going to be in the stills. 

 

This too.  WB only seems to be hiring set photographers for one or two shooting days per week, with the exception of the crossover event episodes. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

7 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Between seasons 4 and 5, EBR reduced her social media posting in general, not just mentions of Arrow. I suspect that had a lot to do with all the hate she was getting in the comments, which reached a fever pitch in the spring of season 4 and that summer. (It made me sick at heart to see comments on a post about her birthday accusing her of ruining Arrow and wishing horrible things to happen to her.) Even though she's been posting more often recently, most of the social media that she's in now is posted by her friends or the gym or her coworkers. 

I forget who it was, but someone on the board explained that episode stills are taken by set photographers, who are only around on certain days. So they can only take pictures of whatever the show happens to be filming while they're there. If they weren't doing scenes with Felicity that day, she's not going to be in the stills. 

I understand that ... I've read about that. That's why I wrote specifically about planning, because there's still a little bit of that involved ... I hope. 

[lemotomato]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I understand that ... I've read about that. That's why I wrote specifically about planning, because there's still a little bit of that involved ... I hope. 

From what I can tell, the CW doesn't give a crap about anything as far as promoting Arrow is concerned, much less make plans. They uploaded the 612 stills on a Friday night. They didn't release preview clips for 611 until 5 hours before airtime. They're not even making extended promos for Arrow anymore. They don't care.

[Primal Slayer]

Arrow is to low on the totem pole now so its getting the usual CW treatment. 

Arrow is just messy all around. Certain actors get better treatment in PR while others get better treatment on screen. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Primal Slayer

[BkWurm1]

I guess in the long run I prefer getting better treatment onscreen, but there's such a disconnect because if they aren't promoting what's good on screen, how does anyone but the die-hard regulars who are going to watch anyway ever know what's good on screen?

Edited January 28, 2018 by BkWurm1

[kes0704]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

Again, though, it depends upon the contracts.

Most creative contracts have clauses stating that the studio/network will promote said work and compensate the actor/writer for said promotion. In some cases, actors/writers are now signing contracts where the studio guarantees that the actor will receive X amount of promotion. This is particularly done in cases where the pay is low. Hello, Arrow!

I'm going to use Juliana Harkavy as a specific example here. Given her resume, it's a very safe bet that she came in at scale. Based on how they are filming/using her, it's even possible that they are paying her at CW's weekly performer rates instead of main role performer rates - as well as using her to try to give Amell a bit of breathing room this season.  Since she had very little room to negotiate, her management presumably requested promotional consideration as partial compensation.  

So, yeah, promoting Harkavy may very well be based on a number of factors: 1) trying to be equitable with overall promotion (especially if the CW helped arrange for some of the magazine shoots for Amell and EBR), 2) fulfilling their side of the contract, thus ensuring that they don't have to waste time fending off irritated calls from Harkavy's management and ensuring that Harkavy doesn't launch a complaint, and 3) assuming that since people do go to the Marvel films which generally featuring people in masks running around hitting people, promoting a woman in a costume and a mask running around hitting people might work.

After all, in their defense, WB's best performing film last year, domestic and international, focused on a woman in a costume running around hitting people, and the overall best performing film of 2017 featured a woman doing martial arts with a glowing stick.

 

The information about creative contracts is really interesting because, as a fan, I didn’t know that promotional consideration was something that could be set up.  With regard to JH in particular, just before she made her debut the EP’s started talking about how you couldn’t do a Green Arrow show without a Black Canary and Stephen also talked about how important BC was in the comic world of Green Arrow.  

That, coupled with the intensive push in promo for her and the weird way they wrote Oliver/Felicity in 5A, definitely made me wonder if they were going to take another opportunity to set up a GA/BC pairing.  The other factor is that I think I’m canaried out after three attempts at the character in five years.  I sometimes wonder if I would have been more receptive if they’d introduced her as something other than another version of Black Canary because they do need more women on the show.  

Edited January 28, 2018 by kes0704

[EmilyBettFan]

19 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I guess in the long run I prefer getting better treatment onscreen, but there's such a disconnect because if they aren't promoting what's good on screen, how does anyone but the die-hard regulars who are going to watch anyway ever know what's good on screen?

This is a problem. Because it reflects in the ratings. You'd think they would hype up their own content.

[Featherhat]

39 minutes ago, kes0704 said:

The information about creative contracts is really interesting because, as a fan, I didn’t know that promotional consideration was something that could be set up.  With regard to JH in particular, just before she made her debut the EP’s started talking about how you couldn’t do a Green Arrow show without a Black Canary and Stephen also talked about how important BC was in the comic world of Green Arrow.  

That, coupled with the intensive push in promo for her and the weird way they wrote Oliver/Felicity in 5A, definitely made me wonder if they were going to take another opportunity to set up a GA/BC pairing.  The other factor is that I think I’m canaried out after three attempts at the character in five years.  I sometimes wonder if I would have been more receptive if they’d introduced her as something other than another version of Black Canary because they do need more women on the show.  

Yeah I think a lot of us thought that. In hindsight it was probably much more about the WB/DC mandate that the show have another BC, because I don't think they were planning on it otherwise and I didn't like KC as LL but having those be "revealed" as her character's last words was cruel because it was "We're getting rid of *you* not your character" (Because Masks are interchangeable, you know). SA generally does what he's told as far as talking up storylines goes and it was JH's big thing when coming onto the show "I'm the BLACK CANARY!" in terms of promotion and she obviously wanted her character to be seen as indispensable etc. I didn't really mind the character in S5 but the way they used her then and especially now proves you can to have a GA show without BC and in fact it might be better for the character to be a recurring guest star ala Helena, because none of them apart from Sara have come close to being his equal in fighting.

Interesting about contracts guaranteeing certain promotion, thanks. Can't say it's making me like certain characters any better though. I guess they're becoming more recognisable faces as actors though, which is what they want. 

[Hiveminder]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

Twitter is free. However.  Using EBR's likeness might not be free - that is, for the official CW, WB, CBS and Arrow accounts. (Not that CBS is doing anything to promote Arrow apart from listing it in their quarterly reports as a "and this is also a thing that exists," but let us move on from that.) This is mostly because Hollywood is an industry that employs people whose faces are worth $100 million or so, or who think their faces are worth $100 million or so, and have set up things to exploit that.  Which means, generally speaking, the studio and the network have to pay each time they use an actor's likeness to promote the show, since they are using that likeness to sell their products.  For CW actors, it's usually around $1000 per use, though a few of them - Stephen Amell and Gina Rodriguez, certainly - may be charging a bit more.  

(This is different for fans - none of you are directly making any money from tweeting/retweeting images of EBR and/or Arrow; at most one or two of you might get an offer to write reviews of the show or create fan art or something, but that's not using EBR's image to directly promote your work. )  

So, although I really can't rule out incompetence, I also think there's more going on here than "fairness and bias" - there's contracts, fees, publicity agreements and so on. And also, incompetence. Let us not forget the incompetence! 

It just doesn't make sense for them to not be able and/or willing to spend that money on their female lead instead of BC3. If it's a contract/fees thing, surely promotion involving EBR would have been planned for. If not then that truly is incompetence.

Also, isn't it more than just not tweeting or retweeting pics? It seems EBR is largely ignored by the official accounts. Surely just liking a tweet from SA about EBR's acting in 510 doesn't cost them anything. i don't think that one even had a picture, did it?  It's just weird. 

[quarks]

6 hours ago, kes0704 said:

The information about creative contracts is really interesting because, as a fan, I didn’t know that promotional consideration was something that could be set up.  With regard to JH in particular, just before she made her debut the EP’s started talking about how you couldn’t do a Green Arrow show without a Black Canary and Stephen also talked about how important BC was in the comic world of Green Arrow.  

That, coupled with the intensive push in promo for her and the weird way they wrote Oliver/Felicity in 5A, definitely made me wonder if they were going to take another opportunity to set up a GA/BC pairing.  The other factor is that I think I’m canaried out after three attempts at the character in five years.  I sometimes wonder if I would have been more receptive if they’d introduced her as something other than another version of Black Canary because they do need more women on the show.  

I don't think they have or have ever had any intentions of setting up another GA/BC pairing at all. 

I do think they are reading Disney financial reports and looking at Black Widow merchandise sales.

[SmallScreenDiva]

11 hours ago, quarks said:

So, although I really can't rule out incompetence, I also think there's more going on here than "fairness and bias" - there's contracts, fees, publicity agreements and so on. And also, incompetence. Let us not forget the incompetence! 

Thank very much for providing insight into this whole thing ... never thought about promotional considerations in contracts, not this level anyway. I get the incompetence, I really do. But then I remember that tweet from Stephen and having no one, not one account associated with Arrow, except for the production office, apparently, RT that feels more than just incompetence. It feels more like a deliberate choice. I mean, we fans are probably not helping Felicity/Emily's case by calling out Arrow and people about it but it's infuriating as hell to see another freakin' bird being shoved down my throat after years of KC. I get they need to promote JH and BC, but it feels like there was never a time they promoted Emily/Felicity. Then went straight from KC to JH — like only whoever BC is matters. 

1 hour ago, quarks said:

I do think they are reading Disney financial reports and looking at Black Widow merchandise sales.

How are their BC merchandise sales been so far with the third incarnation? Because they essentially went from a C-level actress like KC to what, D? E-level? After a year, has she gained any traction or has it been enough that people are not saying nuBC is not terrible as BC 2.0 who can't throw a damn punch? 

[SmallScreenDiva]

7 hours ago, Featherhat said:

With regard to JH in particular, just before she made her debut the EP’s started talking about how you couldn’t do a Green Arrow show without a Black Canary and Stephen also talked about how important BC was in the comic world of Green Arrow.  

I always laugh when I come across anybody trying to sell this. The only BC that made sense in Arrow's story telling was Sara's. And only because of her connection to Oliver's past, not his present and certainly not his future. KC and JH's BC's have no impact whatsoever on GA. They're not his partners, they're teammates he did not/does not even interact with that much. Take out Dinah right now, replace her with a lamp, and nothing really changes for either GA or Oliver. So TPTB can miss me with their you can't do a Green Arrow show without BC. As soon Oliver's story that included Sara was told, Arrow had no use for a BC. 

[quarks]

1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

How are their BC merchandise sales been so far with the third incarnation? Because they essentially went from a C-level actress like KC to what, D? E-level? After a year, has she gained any traction or has it been enough that people are not saying nuBC is not terrible as BC 2.0 who can't throw a damn punch? 

For whatever reason, DC hasn't released any Dinah Drake Black Canary/Juliana Harkavy merchandise, so....at the moment, those sales are exactly zero.

Black Widow merchandise, though, continues to sell well. You can take this either as evidence that Black Widow is popular, or that Disney needs to offer more options than just Gamora, Black Widow and Scarlet Witch (and the Scarlet Witch stuff is very limited), but DC/WB seems to have gone with the "Black Widow is popular" idea.

[leopardprint]

3 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Take out Dinah right now, replace her with a lamp, and nothing really changes for either GA or Oliver. So TPTB can miss me with their you can't do a Green Arrow show without BC. As soon Oliver's story that included Sara was told, Arrow had no use for a BC. 

JH's acting choices aside, BC is written as such a generic character and Arrow already has major issues with repetitive storylines that they really did her no favors. 

JH also seems to promote herself and her character a lot on social media so perhaps it's just laziness on the CW's part rather than an actual decision to promote one actress over the other. 

A lamp is probably way more useful than a Black Canary, sometimes this show is super dark, so hard to see. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by leopardprint

[Angel12d]

No GA without BC? ? ? ?

This show would be better if they stopped trying to make BC happen, IMO. Sara made sense because of her history with Oliver and her training but she's much better used as her own team leader over on her show (and probably what BC should've been, off doing her own thing). And even though I was never a fan, I can argue a case for Laurel because she was trying to take up the mantle in the name of her sister and make her proud or whatever. I know they didn't write her rise to BC well at all and it came at Sara's expense (for one season), at least it made sense in terms of it being her sister. There's a family link. She also has that history with Oliver. Dinah, on the other hand, is a complete nobody with no links or history to Oliver or Sara, the original Canary, and was only asked to be on the team because she has that dumb meta cry. 

I do agree that this show needs more female characters and that's why I think it was a massive mistake to make JH's character BC/Dinah Drake. The insistence that this woman with no history to the team should be just as important as Oliver after 6 seasons because comics is infuriating. That's why they should've taken her in a different direction and left BC in the ground. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Angel12d

[SmallScreenDiva]

36 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

A lamp is probably way more useful than a Black Canary, sometimes this show is super dark, so hard to see. 

[BunsenBurner]

In regards to JH, if they had brought her on with no powers or other powers and named her any other name I probably would have accepted her better.

I started watching this show because it wasn’t going to have super powers etc.

I liked Sara’s device where she did not have to open her mouth and scream. 

I think the woman who had been in the military would have been a better choice. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by BunsenBurner
To clarify a statement.