The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[BkWurm1]

19 minutes ago, EmilyBettFan said:

These reviews constantly tell me two things every week. That Emily and Stephen are the best and Oliver + OTA should be at the centre.

Almost every review is positive towards those two segments.

Well, TvEcho does pick the best ones.  :)

[tv echo]

Agents of GEEK Podcast Episode 53
Craig Wack & Tatiana Torres  12/08/2016
http://agentsofgeekpodcast.com/wordpress/

-- Craig thought that Arrow 509 was "somewhere in between what Agents of SHIELD did and what the Flash did."  Tatiana: "If it wasn't for the final scene, I would put it closer to SHIELD. But the final scene just really - mmm - yeah, we'll get there."

-- For all the people who thought Craig was crazy and that he was being a "Laurel ain't dead" truther, Craig: "Well, guess what? I was f**king right, bitches! I was right. I knew they weren't going to kill her off!" However, he added the caveat that they "lingered way too long on that bottle [of vodka with Cyrillic writing on it]," so there's speculation that Oliver was drugged. He also noted Oliver "has been dreaming a lot" about Laurel lately. Craig noted that there was also some speculation  that she was not Laurel, but Black Siren who's working with Prometheus to mess with Oliver. So Craig conceded that it's possible that Oliver is a "drooling pile" on the reporter's couch, "dreaming of Laurel."

-- Craig said that, as "depressing" this episode was for a Christmas episode ("blue Christmas"), it was also "very well-done." He thought that this episode was the "payoff, as horrible as it was," for the show returning to a more balanced mix of "bitter and sweet", which it hasn't done for a few seasons. He thought that S3 and S4 were more "broody and gritty", but that this season had "lightened up", so that the "heavier, emotional moments landed better, landed more intensely" because there'd been those lighter moments. In contrast, he noted that The Flash's midseason finale "was equally as depressing," but since The Flash has been "gloomy and mopey in general, it just felt like the awful things that we saw in there just seemed like the continuation of the terrible." Tatiana agreed and said that, in the Arrow midseason finale, "everything felt earned - except for the last five minutes." 

-- Craig noted that Prometheus had intimate knowledge of and recreated in great detail Oliver's S1 hunt for this particular name on the List. 

-- Craig and Tatiana noted that the characters actually talked about what happened in the crossover, including some "tender moments" between Oliver and Thea. They both thought that Thea has been great this season.

-- Tatiana thought it was "heartbreaking" when Oliver had to tell Felicity and everyone else about killing Billy Malone. He was "visibly broken" and not his usual "steely" self. Craig thought that "previous seasons' Ollie would've found a way" not to confess to being the one who killed Billy and would've kept it a secret.

-- Tatiana thought that it didn't make sense that Paul would break up with Curtis once he found out that his husband was being a superhero and saving people: "It's cool, and you get over it. You don't act like they've been cheating on you... Okay, your significant other has been lying to you. So I get that. But, like, poor Curtis. The dude was not willing to try at all. 'Oh, you lied to me, I'm leaving.'"  She thought it might've been more believable if there had been stress in their relationship before, but we saw a happy marriage, so it didn't make sense that Paul wasn't even willing to give it a try.  Craig thought that Paul's actions did make sense, but that Curtis' actions didn't. He questioned why being a superhero meant that much to Curtis (that he was willing to sacrifice his marriage) and noted that Curtis had replaced Laurel in terms of wearing the black leather and being a bad fighter who regularly got beat up.

-- Per Craig, in the last five minutes, "everything falls apart".  Diggle gets "suckered into a trap that's obviously been set up by Prometheus." Felicity was "once again... mourning the loss of her boyfriend and, you know, crying... Watching Felicity cry does make you want to cry, because people do like Felicity quite a bit and, so, you do want to see her happy." Then, after all this bad stuff happens, we see Oliver go to the reporter. Tatiana: "Ugh! Oh, go to anyone else, Oliver! Go to your sister. Go - go talk to Barry. Get the f**k away from this reporter!" On Oliver kissing the reporter, Craig: "C'mon, Ollie! Really? ... You just broke the heart -"  Tatiana: "You just had a flashback scene with the love of your life and a red pen. There's no need for you to screw another lady."  Craig: "She's back on the market again!"  Tatiana: "She's single again! You just have to wait at least three episodes!"

-- On the Laurel reveal scene, Craig noted that there's been a lot of speculation about Black Siren, about Flashpoint, or about Laurel never being dead to begin with. Tatiana hoped that she's only on for one episode and noted that Laurel's been on the show "three or four times" already this season. Craig said that Laurel's a series regular this season, but so is Snart and we've only seen Snart once. Tatiana interjected that Laurel's not a series regular anymore. Craig explained that KC, WM and JB are all on contract to appear on all four shows this season. Tatiana: "I'm so annoyed! Guys, I hate her so much." Craig: "Get ready for a February just chock full of Laurel."

-- On 509 overall, Tatiana: "Arrow good. Laurel bad."  Craig: "Well, that wraps up Arrow really to a T."

ETA: Once again, I caution that I do not try to post a representative or comprehensive sampling of reviews.  I usually post major ones like EW and A.V. Club, but otherwise I post reviews that I like or that make points I want to make. Occasionally, I'll post ones that I don't like for the purpose of commenting on a specific point. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Allison Brennan and Lavinia Kent analyze ‘Arrow’ episode ‘What We Leave Behind’: A devastating setup
December 9, 2016
http://happyeverafter.usatoday.com/2016/12/09/allison-brennan-lavinia-kent-arrow-recap-what-we-leave-behind/

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AB: There is so much I love about this episode that I’m going to try and forget the few things that irritated me (though I’ll share them with you, dear readers!). For a midseason finale, it hit all the right notes from the very beginning: namely, when Oliver Queen spoke at the Mayor’s Christmas Party and said that Die Hard was his favorite movie, followed by It’s a Wonderful Life. Score!
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LK: And, of course, It’s a Wonderful Life is all about seeing different versions of what could have been — a reference to last week and the aliens without actually going into it. Perfect.

I also thought this was a fabulous episode, maybe my favorite of the season, despite some bad things happening. My pet peeves were pretty much the same as yours, although I had a couple of slightly different interpretations.
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AB: I totally agree with the too many characters at this point.
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AB: Now I’m going to mention one of my pet peeves about this episode — again, a minor problem, but it annoyed me. The whole resolution of the Curtis/Paul situation. Curtis has been lying to Paul about what he’s been doing and where he’s been — Paul has every right to be mad. What I don’t get is Curtis, who says he loves Paul — and they are married — then stays out late with the team right after he gets out of the hospital, and when Paul is leaving, he takes the moral high ground, “I’ve never seen you happier,” but he can’t live worrying about his safety. And I’m thinking, something must be fundamentally wrong in this relationship if first Curtis is lying all the time, then doesn’t even act a little bit sorry for it. I totally sided with Paul on this (not the “I can’t live worrying about your life” part, but the leaving part) because Curtis put his adrenaline rush over his marriage and didn’t even act like he was torn up about it.

LK: I am basically in agreement with you. I did think Curtis was acting both selfish and like an idiot. (Although, to skip ahead a little, we should remember that he was trying to help save Felicity’s boyfriend when he left the hospital.)
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AB: While Team Arrow are running down their leads, Felicity and Detective Malone have a moment — Malone is running his own investigation, and Felicity asks him to let the Green Arrow handle it — her team. I thought it was both realistic and immature for Felicity to ask him not to do his job — he’s a detective and in charge of the Throwing Star Killer case. He’s supposed to sit back and let the Green Arrow and his girlfriend stop the killer? Nope. And if he did, I would have considered him not only a wimp, but not a very good cop. I see why Felicity asked him — she’s worried about him — but at the same time, he’s a cop. This is his job.
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And again, super kudos to the writers for not having Oliver lie to Felicity about what happened. No more secrets! Oliver is clearly shaken by what has happened — more shaken than I’ve ever seen him, and that’s saying a lot considering what he’s been through over the years! He tells the team they’re not safe around him, he’s taken to heart what Prometheus said about those around him dying. But the team stays with him. And my favorite? He gets a Diggle hug. I love John!
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When Prometheus and Artemis are talking at the beginning of the episode, he’s putting up photos of everyone in Oliver’s life. Quentin Lance’s picture is there with an X through it. I was thinking, that doesn’t make sense, Lance isn’t dead — he’s in rehab. But then at the end, Prometheus has Oliver kill the man Felicity loves, and then sets Diggle up to be arrested by the military — and his goal is clear. To take away Oliver’s support, and that doesn’t always mean death.
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AB: That’s my biggest pet peeve. She’s not real. She can’t be. She calls him Ollie, so she isn’t a Laurel from another Earth, but she died, was buried, and I don’t see her coming back at all … the writers also said last season that she wouldn’t be coming back from the dead (we might see her again, but she wouldn’t be resurrected). So I’m hoping it’s just a figment of his imagination, because anything else just feels fake to me.
*  *  *
I was reading some speculation that perhaps Flashpoint changed whether the Lazarus Pit was destroyed, or there’s another logical explanation. Stephen Amell on Facebook said that other than the Green Arrow himself, the Black Canary was the most important character in the Arrow Universe and it would be nice to have her back. Hint? I don’t know.
*  *  *
LK: I do think she’s real, although they made a point of mentioning that they’d just changed the security codes on the Arrow Cave, so how did she get in there?

Edited December 10, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow “What We Leave Behind” Review (Season 5, Episode 9)
Jessica Breaux  Dec. 8, 2016
http://www.tvequals.com/2016/12/08/arrow-what-we-leave-behind-review-season-5-episode-9/

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The concept of Oliver’s past deeds coming back to haunt him in this way is actually a really interesting direction for the show to take and it makes sense. When Oliver first returned to Starling City, his approach to his mission was really quite bloody. Yes. He was hunting down the people on his father’s list, but he also dropped a lot of bodies that weren’t on the list too. What about all those security guards he killed when he was going after Justin Claybourne? They weren’t inherently evil. They were just regular guys doing their job. Random thought: Wouldn’t it be funny if Prometheus was actually the relative of one of those nameless, faceless people that ended up being collateral damage? Just a thought. But anyway, sooner or later we all have to face the consequences of our actions. Oliver’s cavalier attitude about killing people when he started his mission was a choice, and Prometheus is the consequence.

I wanted to like this episode a whole lot more than I did. It had all the makings for a really solid mid-season finale. There was betrayal, heartbreak, and some pretty cool fight scenes. However, the whole just wasn’t as great as the sum of its parts. There were a number of storylines that kind of just fell flat which contributed to this episode’s lackluster performance. The primary issue is the overall pacing of the story. Not just in this episode, but throughout the season. Prometheus was introduced early on as someone who had a very personal stake in Oliver/The Green Arrow’s demise. However, instead of the show spending the first half of the season building up toward all the reveals in this episode, Prometheus and his story was for the most part put on the back burner. That was a mistake.
*  *  *
... Everything that we learned about Prometheus in this episode would’ve carried more of an emotional punch if the season had spent time building up to it.

The same is true about Billy’s death and Paul walking out on Curtis. Billy was only sporadically in the story, and because of that we never got a chance to get to know him. We never got a chance to watch him and Felicity get to know each other either. So her devastation over his death seemed more about lost opportunity than lost love. The bottom line is we never got the chance to care enough about Billy to care that Prometheus used him. Perhaps the show is counting on how much we care about Felicity to make us feel the pain of Billy’s loss, but that’s not enough. It was a little bit better with Paul, but not by much.

... So the lack of any build up to Paul leaving Curtis caused that to fall kind of flat as well.

Evelyn’s betrayal also lacks any real shock value. It would be one thing if we knew she was playing Oliver because she still blamed him for her parents’ death. Perhaps she still does. Perhaps that is her reason for working with Prometheus, but I don’t know that. Why? Because the show hasn’t spent any time developing her character....

The new Team Arrow hasn’t really gelled for me either. For the most part I like Curtis and I like Rory, but Evelyn and Rene are a different story completely... Then there’s Rene. I suppose his arrogant and brutish behavior is supposed to be endearing or something, but it really just wears on the nerves. His inability to follow orders or even care about the safety of his teammates has already caused numerous problems and the narrative has yet to have him reconsider his actions. That’s not endearing. That’s frustrating and dangerous.
*  *  *
... But I’m guessing the major cliffhanger was supposed to be Laurel showing up alive. First of all, the show is seriously overdoing the ‘Surprise! I’m not really dead!’ thing. It was pretty much old news after Malcolm Merlyn showed up alive again. Secondly, and more importantly, Laurel’s return would be an awesome cliffhanger if I were actually looking forward to Laurel returning to the story at all. I’m really not. The show didn’t seem to know what to do with her character subsequent to season one, and she just became annoying and pretty much next to useless over the next few seasons. Her death did set in motion some events that are still playing out, but she doesn’t need to be back in order for those stories to reach their end. Additionally, I’m not particularly interested in rehashing Oliver and Laurel’s twice-warmed over relationship. I’m hoping against hope that Oliver is just suffering from some sort of stress and guilt-induced hallucination. But my luck usually isn’t that good....

[tv echo]

‘Arrow’ Mid-Season Finale Review: “What We Leave Behind”
Nora Dominick   Dec. 9, 2016
http://emertainmentmonthly.com/index.php/arrow-review-what-we-leave-behind/

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Arrow season five isn’t anything like we expected and that’s not necessarily a good thing. After being bombarded by new characters, our favorites retreated into the background. Take Thea (Willa Holland) and Quentin (Paul Blackthorne). These two characters held so much weight in previous seasons and now they are the shells of their former selves. Quentin is off doing a stint in rehab and Thea is barely in a scene long enough to have a storyline. Even Felicity, the once great female character of Arrow, is unrecognizable. Instead of standing out, she hides in the background only to emerge to make a joke. Even Oliver is doing things out of character. He’s wholeheartedly trusting Susan (Carly Pope) and feels he can’t turn to Felicity for advice. When looking at all four seasons of Arrow, these characters are unrecognizable.
*  *  *
After spending most of season five ignoring they even had a relationship, the mid-season finale validates that Oliver and Felicity did indeed date in season 4 and have an intrinsic connection. We finally get to a point where they can share scenes together and honestly, putting their relationship aside, we’ve just missed the friendship. For those “Olicity” fans, the flashbacks in this episode definitely gave them enough content to swoon over. We see Oliver, four years earlier, visit Felicity at the IT department. The simple interaction is a great homage to the two characters and makes up for the lack of Felicity in the 100th episode. Amell and Rickards perfectly fall back in sync with each other as they bring their characters back to the beginning. It’s a dynamic that’s been missing this season and it looks like there will be a resurgence of “Olicity” coming into 2017.
*  *  *
One, while Oliver killing Billy is heartbreaking, it doesn’t hold the emotional weight it would have if we had seen this relationship grow on screen. Felicity and Billy’s relationship is simply there and we have to try to piece together why it’s even a thing. No, this isn’t our “Olicity” heart being annoyed with the relationship, it’s us trying to figure out what Felicity sees in him because we aren’t getting enough character development from him.

Second, it’s an issue with Felicity’s character structure this year. We never thought this would happen, but Arrow fell into the trap that she needs to always be with a man, especially after breaking up with Oliver. This never needed to happen. Honestly, the scene would’ve felt the same if Billy was simply an SCPD officer Oliver knew. Felicity has been reduced to the “hysterical girlfriend” and it’s a flaw Arrow needs to remedy ASAP. Rickards has incredible potential to take Felicity to a truly empowering leading female status, so why do all her scenes involve working with Billy? She can figure stuff out on her own, she hasn’t needed someone before. Arrow needs to realize that they don’t need to shove Felicity in a relationship for us to love her.
*  *  *
... Oliver doesn’t lie, he stares Felicity right in the eye, tears streaming down his face, and says he killed Billy. It’s a massive moment for Oliver. It shows just how far he’s come in five seasons. Honestly, this is probably Amell’s greatest acting in this scene. He gives an emotional and raw performance here. Amell’s work has transcends expectations as he proves he thrives in the vulnerable moments.
*  *  *
In the 100th episode, Oliver finally got the chance to say goodbye to Laurel, so bringing her back yet again feels like Arrow is still trying to say sorry for her death. We get it, you killed her, she was important, now please move on....

[tv echo]

Arrow Review: What We Leave Behind (Season 5 Episode 9)
December 10, 2016Lissete Lanuza Sáenz
http://telltaletv.com/2016/12/arrow-review-what-we-leave-behind-season-5-episode-9/

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Congratulations, Arrow. You’ve sunk to new lows. I didn’t think you had it in you.
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“What We Leave Behind” is not a bad episode. In fact, it could even be said it’s Arrow’s best episode this year, not that that’s a ringing endorsement. The problem is that that their total disregard for some things has left such a bad taste in my mouth I can’t even enjoy the “improvement.”
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It’s about selling the idea of a team of equals. It’s about making me think that heroes come in all shapes and forms, be it that of a quirky IT girl, or an alcoholic cop, only to then turn back around and say this show is just about Oliver.
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It’s not about Felicity being left to grieve alone – that’s standard Felicity, it’s about not caring enough about her relationship with Oliver (not even talking romantic here, but she and Oliver used to be friends) to throw us a line about how she choose to be alone. It’s about everyone consoling Oliver instead of Felicity, you know, the woman who actually lost someone.
*  *  *
I get it, I do. When I signed up for this, I signed up for Oliver Queen’s story.

Except that, for four seasons, it wasn’t just his story. It was Felicity’s, and Diggle’s, Thea’s and Laurel’s, Quentin’s and Sara’s.

And now it’s all about …well, about the Green Arrow, I guess. Just not the one we knew for four seasons. Not the one in the comics, either.

Instead, Arrow’s legacy is that of a show who could never truly figure out what it was or who it wanted to appeal to.

This is made abundantly clear in the last scene of the episode, which gives us Katie Cassidy’s Laurel Lance back. Or, does it?

Conventional wisdom indicates not. It could be Black Siren. Or, this could be another consequence of Flashpoint, the gift that keeps on giving.

Either way, it feels like a slap in the face, for just about everyone. If you’re a Laurel Lance fan, you have to be wondering why now? What’s changed?
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And, if you’re a Felicity Smoak fan, you have to be re-considering giving this show even another second of your time. It’s not like they’re giving your favorite character any development, or time, or even basic human consideration.
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The Olicity scene was sorta cute, but endgame means nothing if you poison the journey, Arrow. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Does Oliver want Susan Williams to die? Does he just want to get laid? I don’t get his whole: “I have to keep a distance from everyone I care about” spiel when he’s just going to go unload on her.
And get laid. Because, hey, we know what fade to black means. We’ve seen other shows.

I couldn’t even re-watch the scene with King-of-Manpain Oliver explaining that he killed Billy and EVERYONE consoling him instead of Felicity.
Like, I thought Felicity and Diggle were friends?
I thought Rory liked Felicity.
I thought Curtis was Felicity’s new BFF or something.
*  *  *
Do you even like women, Arrow? Serious question. Do you?

Edited December 11, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

This is an interesting analysis of the 509 music by a fan (which Arrow composer Blake Neely said was "spot on") - I only quoted the Olicity portion, so you may wish to read the entire thing...

What We Leave Behind - Arrow Music Notes 5x09
Austencello  Dec. 10, 2016
http://austencello.tumblr.com/post/154318061629/what-we-leave-behind-arrow-music-notes-5x09

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Oliver and Felicity
One of the Flashbacks includes a moment between Felicity and Oliver as she researches another terrible lie for him (singing telegram?! That is pretty hilarious)  A wonderful and interesting part of this flashback is that the music reminds us of their relationship.  Not where they were in Season 1 since no-one knew at that point that Felicity would be the love of Oliver’s life.  They didn’t have a theme together until Season 2.  Yet now that relationship has happened, little musical clues can be planted.  Happy harp, piano and strings play as Felicity gives Oliver the address and knocks off her red pen (the same music from 3x01 when Oliver asks Felicity out on a date).  Then the first 4 notes of the Olicity theme “The One I Love” plays as Oliver gives Felicity the pen back (in a proposal stance.)  Reminders of the first date (”it was red”), of the magic of their relationship, of their proposal.  It was nice to hear that theme again even just a little hint.
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Near the end of the episode in a tragic turn of events, Oliver returns to tell Felicity that he killed Billy.  Oliver would already be upset since he went to rescue Billy, not to mention a good cop and part of his anti-crime division, but to tell Felicity that he killed her boyfriend is just devastating.  As he enters the lair, the strings play the opening of “My Whole World Exploded” from 4x08.  Using this theme has several layers involved.  First of all, Oliver is believing what Prometheus said: everyone he touches dies.  He killed the man he intended to rescue.  A good man.  He was confronted with the murders he committed 4 years ago and is deeply grieved at the consequences.  His actions created this villain.  His world has exploded once again.   At another level, this music was used when Oliver had a chance to tell Felicity that he had a son and yet lied.  It fragmented their relationship.  Yet again. Oliver has deeply painful news that will break Felicity’s heart.  But he chooses not to lie to protect her or himself.  He chooses the truth even if he could lose her as a partner and friend.
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The strings continue as Oliver tells Felicity what happens.  As he does so and Felicity asks him where Billy is, harp repeats the same note throughout with piano echoing higher every so often.  It is as if you could heard Felicity’s heartbeat throughout and the echoes of guitar harmonics and piano are Oliver’s grief over what he did.  The chords change (slightly more hopeful) as Felicity recognizes that the fault lies with Prometheus.  He tries to send the team away to protect them from himself as his hero theme begins in the strings (self-sacrifice) but then changes as Diggle comforts him (with hero brass).

Edited December 12, 2016 by tv echo

[looptab]

I do love Neely's themes. My favorite is the Olicity theme - from the mansion scene in 223, rather than the 'new and improved' version they used from S3 on - but also the Flash main theme, that's just uplifting.

[Morrigan2575]

Fascinating analysis of the music. I honestly don't pay any attention to the music/score. However, it's nice to see people who pay attention and think about what it might mean

Edited December 12, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[wonderwall]

4 minutes ago, looptab said:

I do love Neely's themes. My favorite is the Olicity theme - from the mansion scene in 223, rather than the 'new and improved' version they used from S3 on - but also the Flash main theme, that's just uplifting.

The 3 main Olicity themes (that I know and love):

[looptab]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

The 3 main Olicity themes (that I know and love)

<3  :)

[wonderwall]

Just now, looptab said:

<3  :)

I love listening to scores - but my favorites are always the softer ones :')

[EmilyBettFan]

Oh my I just love the Olicity themes. My favs.

[tv echo]

"What We Leave Behind" – Arrow S05E09 Review
By Gislef  Dec 08, 2016
http://www.tv.com/shows/arrow/community/post/what-we-leave-behind-arrow-s05e09-review-1481177827/

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And then we get a rather awkward attack on Curtis. Why would Prometheus graze his neck, then fight him hand to hand, and then deliver a non-fatal throwing knife? If he wants to convince Oliver that he gets his people around him killed, that seems a good way to do it. Sure, it doesn't have the visceral impact of tricking Oliver into killing someone, but there doesn't seem to be any reason for Prometheus to spare Curtis.
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But Justin was spreading weaponized TB in the first place. After the Hood gives him a warning, he keeps on doing whatever he was doing. The Hood breaks into Justin's secret TB-manufacturing plant, kills a lot of guys, and then kills Justin. I don't remember him being quite so homicidal during Arrow season 1, but let's roll with it.
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And at the end, Laurel shows up in the bunker to greet Oliver. Because lord knows we haven't seen and heard enough about Laurel enough already this season. She's like the Lana Lang of Arrow: the writers seem to like her a lot more than many of the fans.

Overall, "What We Leave Behind" was... okay. It was about what you'd expect from a winter finale. There are some minor triumphs, but overall it's a loss. Oliver does find out who Prometheus is, although I suspect the full story isn't told. He's some rich kid's son who got the same training and became just as good a fighter as Oliver? Something doesn't quite seem to track there. We also have the (potentially planted) photo to supposedly confirm that Prometheus is Justin's son. We're not even halfway through the season yet, so I have my doubts that Prometheus is who they believe he is. "He" could potentially be anyone, from Tommy to Susan the helpful reporter and love interest.
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Joe Dinicol works pretty well with anyone they've paired him up with so far. I don't watch the vast majority of what he's been in, and I don't remember him from Haven. But the casting people really made a good choice with him. Even Rene softens up a little bit tonight, with his oohing over the Christmas stocking that Evelyn gave him. And his talking to Diggle about children, and chatting with Rory about whether Barry should Flashpoint back and try to stop Prometheus from ever existing. With Curtis and Felicity both facing the loss of loved ones, it's nice to see that someone can pick up the comedy slack.
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My primary gripe is that Prometheus' plan seems all over the place. Why was he setting up Quentin to think that he was Prometheus, for instance? Blackthorne wasn't even in tonight's episode, although Adrian showed up briefly. Why did he spare Curtis? Why did he use such an awkward plan to tell Oliver who he is? He injected Curtis with an anti-TB drug, but left him alive? Why? I guess because Echo Kellum is a series regular and Tyler Ritter isn't.

Edited December 13, 2016 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

I don't think that guy on TV.com understands that the reason Billy is dead and not Curtis is to get to Felicity, to 'corrupt' Felicity and her loyalty towards Oliver. 

Edited December 13, 2016 by wonderwall

[way2interested]

I just assumed that the whole point of attacking Curtis without killing him was to reveal him in front of Paul and to tell Oliver that he knew who all of them were, but if we want to be technical then yeah it's because EK is a series regular.

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

I just assumed that the whole point of attacking Curtis without killing him was to reveal him in front of Paul and to tell Oliver that he knew who all of them were, but if we want to be technical then yeah it's because EK is a series regular.

Basically he's ruining the lives of everyone close to Oliver and is giving him the message that this is his fault 

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, way2interested said:

I just assumed that the whole point of attacking Curtis without killing him was to reveal him in front of Paul and to tell Oliver that he knew who all of them were, but if we want to be technical then yeah it's because EK is a series regular.

When I think about it, that could be viewed as more effective than killing him outright.  Prometheus is not killing the people around Oliver, as might be expected when you suit up, he's keeping them alive but making their lives miserable.  (And yeah,  EK is a regular.)

Maybe he put something in Quentin's drink bottles that made him more susceptible to his addiction.  There are drugs that can decrease the effect of alcohol, maybe he's created one that increases the tendency to addiction.  It could explain the 'X' across Lance's photo.

[bijoux]

I remember the interview from last season, but not this part of it. I don't know if it has just been released or if I've forgotten it.

[calliope1975]

SA's wine club got a write up in the NY Times - Nocking Point

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, calliope1975 said:

SA's wine club got a write up in the NY Times - Nocking Point

It's a pretty hilarious write up lmao

[apinknightmare]

Quote

The idea was born of a baseball trip. In 2012, Mr. Harding and Mr. Amell were driving to Oakland from Los Angeles to see Mr. Amell’s home team, the Toronto Blue Jays. On the drive, Mr. Harding, who grew up in Washington State’s wine country, discovered that Mr. Amell had never been to a winery, so they detoured to Paso Robles. They never made it to the game.

“We just had the best time in Paso,” Mr. Amell said. “I brought it up when we were sitting on a dock watching a sunset: ‘How do we replicate this?’”

Sounds like a fun, romantic time for them!

[calliope1975]

I liked that he lives in a castle-like home and doesn't eat or whatever that was about. 

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

Sounds like a fun, romantic time for them!

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

doesn't eat or whatever that was about. 

Just stating his intention to get full-on wine drunk in the AM, I guess. 

[Chaser]

His poor liver.

12 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Sounds like a fun, romantic time for them!

I was confused for a moment because that passage was followed by the "couples trip". Lol

Paso is my hometown and it's weird to see it in the article. I guess that goes under too much Arrow.

[LeighAn]

I've seen the listing pictures of his home after he brought it and it's a very nice house don't get me wrong but I wouldn't call it castle like. By Hollywood standards it's on the small tamer side

ETA: Also the origin story sounds so super yuppyish and douchey no offence to anyone. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by LeighAn

[bijoux]

You guys are making this sound incredible. Now I'll have to read it. No joke.

[RussianRoulette]

3 hours ago, wonderwall said:

It's a pretty hilarious write up lmao

The article is one epic LOLOLOL. I don't know if it was supposed to be some kind of promotional piece but after reading that I am even less interested in the NP stuff. I also ~love that their wine boxes contain socks and coffee beans. Lol! For $100 you better give me as much wine as possible! 

I wonder how much their membership success depends on the show success though (a lot I am sure ; is it affected by recent ratings, idek). It would be interested to know 'cause I am not sure I quite understand their mid-to-long term business plan. 

[LeighAn]

I'd say a lot if not all of their success is contingent on Stephens fame/Arrows fame

Edited December 15, 2016 by LeighAn

[Chaser]

They haven't sent any of their blends out to be reviewed so I would say they are keeping within the Arrow fandom. 

[bijoux]

So, I read the article and it really does read like they had their own rom-com setting up the business.

Why does the writer keep referring to them as Mr. Amell and Mr. Harding? I found it hella distracting.

[SmallScreenDiva]

5 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Why does the writer keep referring to them as Mr. Amell and Mr. Harding? I found it hella distracting.

It's the Times style.

[tv echo]

Arrow 509 Review – Pain and a Shocking Return in “What We Leave Behind”
Alisha Bjorklund  December 9, 2016
http://www.threeifbyspace.net/2016/12/arrow-509-review-pain-shocking-return-what-we-leave-behind/

Quote

Every year, Arrow shocks us with a big mid-season finale. This year was no different! I was left at the end of this episode audibly exclaiming, “What? What? WHAT?” It was a pretty big twist, after all, but my dismay was fueled by both shock and outrage. Why? Well, I think it’s easier to just jump into the recap. You know the drill by now.
*  *  *
1. LAUREL F******* LANCE IS BACK. After all the commotion around killing her off. F******* typical, Arrow.
*  *  *
5. Any minute now Prometheus is going to tell Oliver, “Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya Claybourne Junior. You killed my father, prepare to die.”
*  *  *
How is Laurel Lance back? Good question. I have mixed feelings on seeing her in the present, and I can’t even be sure if she’s actually there or some figment of Oliver’s imagination. It wouldn’t be the first time he hallucinated her! Laurel’s departure from the show was met with strong emotions from everyone (both for and against her) and, for what it’s worth, her tribute episode was better than I expected. But having Laurel return seems to dishonor that a little. Laurel’s death was understood to be permanent. We’d already been told the magic hot tub was gone. Death would have meaning again. But, surprise, surprise, a superhero show can’t seem to keep a character dead.
*  *  *
Even though Felicity said she blamed Prometheus for Billy’s death, there will be a part of her that blames Oliver; a part of her that will probably never forgive him. I know that many people are still rooting for Oliver and Felicity to get together in the end, and maybe they will. But having to come back from something like this . . . I don’t know if they can. For the foreseeable future, I think they’ll have to live with an aching chasm between them.
*  *  *
First things first: How did Prometheus know how to stage the entire scene from when Oliver killed his father (and the other men)? Did he have access to the security footage and the police evidence? I guess when you have four years to plot your revenge, you go all out on the plan.

And that’s a big part of what defines Prometheus: he’s been on a mission to honor his father for years and focused on, probably, little to nothing else. In that way, he’s a lot like Oliver (who also started out on his mission to honor his father). If Oliver hadn’t let a team of good people build up around him, maybe he would have ended up just like Prometheus: determined to kill and make those who wronged him suffer.

Edited December 15, 2016 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

6 hours ago, RussianRoulette said:

I wonder how much their membership success depends on the show success though (a lot I am sure ; is it affected by recent ratings, idek). It would be interested to know 'cause I am not sure I quite understand their mid-to-long term business plan. 

Apparently HVFF has a lot of 2-for-1 and even 4-for-1 deals right now. I don't know whether that's typical for cons, but if not, seems potentially problematic.

[Sunshine]

Isn't most con money made from things besides ticket sales?

[lemotomato]

HVFF sold really discounted general admission tickets on sites like Groupon for their first event in San Jose, so either the event has been a bad draw from the very beginning, or it's their business strategy to take a loss on admission fees in order to draw more people in to pay for autographs/photo ops and buy merchandise. 

[Starfish35]

Quote

WORST NEW CHARACTER ON AN ESTABLISHED SHOW

The Walking Dead‘s Negan

RUNNER-UP
Arrow‘s Rene aka Wild Dog

http://tvline.com/gallery/2016-tv-shows-best-worst-moments-photos/#!31/best-worst-tv-2016-new-character-walking-dead-negan-2/

[Chaser]

13 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

HVFF sold really discounted general admission tickets on sites like Groupon for their first event in San Jose, so either the event has been a bad draw from the very beginning, or it's their business strategy to take a loss on admission fees in order to draw more people in to pay for autographs/photo ops and buy merchandise. 

That just reminded me of that group pic that was like 600 dollars. I think it was at the Birmingham event. Ouch.

2 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

http://tvline.com/gallery/2016-tv-shows-best-worst-moments-photos/#!31/best-worst-tv-2016-new-character-walking-dead-negan-2/

Snort.

[kismet]

5 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

Apparently HVFF has a lot of 2-for-1 and even 4-for-1 deals right now. I don't know whether that's typical for cons, but if not, seems potentially problematic.

Maybe some of the fans that have stopped watching, have also stopped wanting to go to cons. Last year, I can remember wondering if I could squeeze a trip down to the NJ one because it was close to family so win-win. But I couldn't do it because of work. This year, I'm not sure you could pay me to attend an Arrow Con. There is nothing I really want to hear them talk about. Most of their answers will be the company line or some version of talking out of both sides of the mouth. You'll never hear their true thoughts until their contracts are up.

Although I do think people are right and that the money comes from other sources than just ticket sales. They just need people in the doors and then profit from them in another way like merch. I also wonder how much they charge vendors to participate. If they negotiate a portion of their profits that could make some money.

[Morrigan2575]

I've never known a Con to offer those kinds of deals. Granted the Cons I've gone to are huge multi genre Cons (NYCC, Dragon*Con). Maybe this happens at smaller cons? A good comparison would Be City Of Heroes (or thier other show cons, Asylum, etc) or any of the Supernatural cons).

[EmilyBettFan]

Now I'd only go to a con for Emily or David. 

[tv echo]

All new participants in this TV Fanatic round table discussion...

Arrow Round Table: Laurel's Return
Paul Dailly at December 15, 2016 10:00 am
https://www.tvfanatic.com/2016/12/arrow-round-table-laurels-return/

Quote

TV Fanatics Jim Garner, Steve Ford and Robin Harry discuss the big return, Malone's death and what's next for the characters. 
*  *  *
Will there be some tough times ahead for Oliver and Felicity?

Jim: If anything I suspect this will drive them together as Felicity knows that it was Prometheus that really is to blame.  

Steve: They both have some difficulties ahead of them, Malone's death will have a significant impact on Oliver and Felicity going forward, and be the driving force that ultimately brings down Prometheus.

Robin: Meh, there's tough times ahead for everyone. This is bigger than the two of them. Everyone on that show is taking a beating right now.

Diggle fell for an ambush, Curtis' marriage fell apart, Felicity ex-fiance accidentally killed her boyfriend, Oliver's new reporter friend has Russian ties (I kept wishing Oliver would recognize the vodka somehow).

All the relationships on this show are going to be tested in some way.
*  *  *
Is there any way that Prometheus could be Oliver from another Earth?

Jim: That seems awfully "Flash-like" for the show. I'm still betting it is someone we know from this world.  

Steve: I don't think so, but you never know with this show. There have been a lot of things that have come out of left field over the past few years, so anything is possible.

I'm still convinced that Prometheus is actually Susan. The team deciphered the photo of the child, however I don't believe there wasn't any definitive proof on the sex of that child.

Robin: I don't think so. I'm still betting that it's someone with whom Oliver shares mutual Russian ties. I don't think it's Susan, but I think that she's another piece of the puzzle that will make this all make sense eventually.
*  *  *
Grade Season 5A!

Jim: I'm giving is a B-. They've moved forward away from the Damian Dahrk story but it feels like the stumbled at a few points, but overall its been pretty good.  

Steve: I give it a B. It's probably the best season since Arrow Season 2. Sure, it has had its share of miss-steps at times, but overall it's been an improvement over the last two seasons. 

Robin: I'm giving it a B+. If someone told me that Arrow would get better than The Flash at any point, I would not have believed it, but here we are. It hasn't been perfect, but the improvement over the last season is nothing short of astounding.

Also, I really love the fact that they've managed to surprise me more than once. Hopefully it continues on this upward trajectory.

Edited December 16, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I think that the basic premise of this article is wrong as an overgeneralization about all protagonists, but I'm posting it for the Felicity mention (which I also don't agree with)...

Protagonists Suck
Katharine Trendacosta  Dec. 14, 2016
http://io9.gizmodo.com/protagonists-suck-1788202258

Quote

You know what the worst part of most traditional stories is? The protagonist. Protagonists are never the best part of anything. This is why ensembles were invented. Protagonists are like... walls. They’re functional, and you can decorate them a little bit, but it’s the rare wall that really grabs your attention.
*  *  *
3) The supporting characters are more interesting than they are
.  .  .
Also? When breakout characters have been brought up from the minors to the majors, they can start to suck, too. Remember when Felicity Smoak was a beautiful and pure light? She’s not awful now, per se, but she’s definitely not the spotlight stealer she used to be. How about Helo from Battlestar Galactica? They didn’t kill him like they planned, and then, by the end of the show, we had Helo doing whatever plot-convenient job they could find for him that week. When characters are around sporadically they’re mysterious and interesting, but too often the more you know about them the more you realize there’s not much else to them.

Examples: Agent Coulson in Agents of SHIELD, Felicity from Arrow, Amanda from Highlander, Spike from Buffy, HRG from Heroes

1) You know exactly what’s going to happen to them
2) They’re usually bland and boring
3) The supporting characters are more interesting than they are
4) They’re very rarely diverse

Edited December 16, 2016 by tv echo

[Primal Slayer]

Quote

Laurel is back. React!

Jim: Is she really back? Or she a doppleganger or alternate earth Laurel who will be leaving? I was totally shocked that she was standing there. So I'm excited to see where they take it.  

Steve: Not sure what to say really. It was so abrupt that I didn't know what to think, especially after the whole Malone scenario. Since the Lazarus pit was destroyed, that is out of the equation.

Like Jim said, she is either from a different Earth OR I'm thinking that her presence likely has something to do with Flashpoint and Barry's meddling with the timeline.

Robin: WHAAAAAAAAAAT?!?!?! I did not see that coming at all. Honestly, I'm so excited by this twist that I don't even want to speculate how it's come about.

I can't wait to see how this is explained and what impact it has on the rest of the show.

https://www.tvfanatic.com/2016/12/arrow-round-table-laurels-return/

If only this would be as interesting as everything wants it to be.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Primal Slayer

[tv echo]

Marc Guggenheim on Trollhunters: Netflix Series Gives Characters a Lot of Room To Grow
Russ Burlingame- 12/16/2016
http://comicbook.com/2016/12/15/marc-guggenheim-on-trollhunters/

Quote

For fans wondering how Guggenheim -- currently the showrunner on Arrow, Vixen, and DC's Legends of Tomorrow -- managed to work Trollhunters into his busy schedule, the answer is actually deceptively simple: it was there the whole time.

"What didn't hurt was the fact that I actually got lured like five years ago before I had anything on the air," Guggenheim laughed when we spoke with him about being sucked into another show at this point in his career. "It was really like just the beginning of Arrow, which really shows you sort of how long this project has been being developed and gestating. It originally started out as a feature film, so with about a year of working on it as a feature and then it's taken about four years to get it to come to people's screens through Netflix. Life was certainly calmer back when I started. It's been an interesting journey."

Life, as he notes, has gotten increasingly complicated since the first time Stephen Amell uttered his famous "you have failed this city" line. Not only does Guggenheim have more jobs, but the DC superhero shows he works on for The CW and CW Seed are interconnected, increasing the degree of difficulty whenever someone involved with one of them needs to pivot.

Along the way, Guggenheim remains active on Twitter and Tumblr, engaging directly with his audience more than most showrunners. For better or worse, he's inundated with realtime feedback (especially on the always-controversial Arrow), which will be absent when Netflix debuts the entire first season of Trollhunters in one shot next Friday.

"There's good and bad about audience input," Guggenheim admitted. "There's something freeing about being able to work on a project sort of in a vacuum. At the same time, it's scary because you're doing it sort of completely blind. You have no sense as to how people are going to react. You have no idea how things are going to play because oftentimes, things play very differently with an audience than the way you intend. Sometimes it's a good thing and sometimes it's a bad thing. I think the nature of the Netflix -- binge watching 24 episodes at a time -- is it frees you up in a different way, which is that you kind of know that your audience theoretically is going to watch several episodes in succession, so there's not a week break between each episode. That lowers the burden on you to make each episode begin with some type of recap or reset."

Edited December 17, 2016 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

I thought Phil Klemmer was the LoT show runner?

[SmallScreenDiva]

I think Klemmer is the day-to-day showrunner. 

[tv echo]

I think that Berlanti's DC TV shows all have multiple showrunners.  LoT has MG and PK. Arrow has MG and WM. Flash has AK and the Helbings.

[Willowtree]

Moved link to spoiler discussion.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Willowtree

[Starfish35]

On 12/18/2016 at 6:24 AM, tv echo said:

I think that Berlanti's DC TV shows all have multiple showrunners.  LoT has MG and PK. Arrow has MG and WM. Flash has AK and the Helbings.

And I think Supergirl has AK and Ali Adler?