Carole Radziwill: She's a Real Princess!

[Petunia13]

I'm not going to screen cap them for you. But I saw this on her Twitter. And it just looks petty for late fifties educated Carole to argue with people who criticize her because in those situations  it's makes the celebrity responder look arrogant and trolling. They chose to be in the public eye and shouldn't get butt hurt not everyone gushes over them or thinks their every action is glitter and rainbows. So basically what it does when she or Beth engage in the social media back and forth and one ups shows insecurity, childishness, & a lack of professionalism. 

Now I wish to responded to the word used stating viewers say hateful things to Ms Carole. This is because I think this word is bandied about way too lightly in a world where people are getting massacred at clubs for their orientation and shoppers or salespeople in stores are still profiled because of their race (hi Beth!). A person can be mocked or questioned for their actions as it's not hate. If you or a thousand of you say or think I'm an idiot it isn't hate. Lol! Carole can call John a sweaty fatass and it's not promoting hate. Maybe size shaming. 

Edited June 17, 2016 by Petunia13

[Umbelina]

I was just curious and went to look and couldn't find any suspect tweets.

[Grneyedldy]

When did Carole's age get rounded up to "late fifties"? At 52, she is much closer to 50 than 60.

[ryebread]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I was just curious and went to look and couldn't find any suspect tweets.

There are a few.  She does post some immature things - for someone pushing 60 ;-) - but in her defense (eeeek) the posts are usually in retaliation for something someone has tweeted at her.   Still not a good look, but whatev.

I perceive this to be a mean tweet.  You have to open it up to read the rest of the comments where she gets nailed.  I dunno - there is a lot on her page (is that the correct Twitter term?) which I see as mean and immature.  I don't spend a lot of time on their social media so they probably all do this.  But since it's the princess we're talking about, I took a gander.  And yeah, she comes off as kind of ridiculous to me.

[ryebread]

Quote

If anyone is reading Carole's blog for medical advise, or takes her comment about a fellow "Housewife" as an official clinical diagnosis, they're probably someone who should not be trusted out in the real world without 24/7 supervision.

It's not that anyone is taking her seriously, it's just: How many times does she get to play Dr. Poseurpants before it becomes a stupid, dangerous habit of hers.  Here's what she said in her blog about Aviva:

Quote

So while Aviva dazzles you with Legionnaire's and asthma, I'm going to match her two respiratory conditions and raise her an emotional disorder. So back up bitches because here comes Munchausen! It's my all-time favorite syndrome.

She has it, I'm positive. She gets attention from her medical ailments -- endless TV time to discuss her problems with cheery friends in ancient salted soaking tubs, and even to catatonic husbands in modern yellow-papered living rooms. Isn't listening to someone talk about her severe to moderate asthma riveting? And to think you watched that but not Kristen's full body wax -- which, having witnessed myself, I assure you was much better television.

I had to laugh about the bolded part.  She knows riveting conversation, how?  Anyhooters, I remember everyone talking about how beautiful and well-written Carole's blogs always were.  And I was like, "Huh? This woman/child is awful. She's so damn mean."  She writes well (sometimes) but  I think her awfulness was hidden behind almost everyone's love of the Heather/Carole coupling and their dislike of Aviva.  I'm glad Carole's freak flag is now flying solo.  Well, it's attached firmly to Beth's backside but I don't think that's going to work out to well for her.

[zoeysmom]

5 hours ago, ryebread said:

There are a few.  She does post some immature things - for someone pushing 60 ;-) - but in her defense (eeeek) the posts are usually in retaliation for something someone has tweeted at her.   Still not a good look, but whatev.

I perceive this to be a mean tweet.  You have to open it up to read the rest of the comments where she gets nailed.  I dunno - there is a lot on her page (is that the correct Twitter term?) which I see as mean and immature.  I don't spend a lot of time on their social media so they probably all do this.  But since it's the princess we're talking about, I took a gander.  And yeah, she comes off as kind of ridiculous to me.

This is what makes this whole argument about Luann needing to notify Ramona before dating Tom.  Carole said they were ex's-they just weren't.  There really is no such thing as a my ex-dinner date.    Ramona has been very clear, "no chemistry, nothing romantic.",  and according to this Ramona didn't even like the guy.  To me an ex indicates an ex spouse or serious relationship.  In the terms of these eight graders, Ramona and Tom weren't going steady.  And since when are Luann and Ramona BFFs?   Ramona has always hated Luann and tried to blame her for everything included the naked man in T&C. 

I also think it is foolish for these women to keep going at another RH man or husband.  This business of accusing a RH selling someone, it is sad.  One should respect another's mate.  Even Adam says he respects Luann-after all the mean tweets and arguments between Carole and Luann.   

[WireWrap]

5 hours ago, ryebread said:

There are a few.  She does post some immature things - for someone pushing 60 ;-) - but in her defense (eeeek) the posts are usually in retaliation for something someone has tweeted at her.   Still not a good look, but whatev.

I perceive this to be a mean tweet.  You have to open it up to read the rest of the comments where she gets nailed.  I dunno - there is a lot on her page (is that the correct Twitter term?) which I see as mean and immature.  I don't spend a lot of time on their social media so they probably all do this.  But since it's the princess we're talking about, I took a gander.  And yeah, she comes off as kind of ridiculous to me.

Yes, they all do it to varying degrees, Carole falls in the middle IMO. Carole doesn't just tweet nasty comments on their own, it is usually in response to a tweet from someone else.  Luann tweets nasty comments, as does Bethenny, Carole does it in response to viewer questions, Ramona doesn't tweet about the show all that much, Sonja is starting to tweet not so nice comments this season and Dorinda tweets veiled semi nasty comments but you can tell when she is drunk tweeting as her tweets get nastier and very confusing (like she gets on the show after a few). LOL

[zoeysmom]

Responding to tweets or re-tweeting is no different than tweeting. 

[Petunia13]

7 hours ago, Grneyedldy said:

When did Carole's age get rounded up to "late fifties"? At 52, she is much closer to 50 than 60.

I assumed she was actually sixty based her looks. I thought I was being nice and rounding down. ?

[RedheadZombie]

12 hours ago, Grneyedldy said:

When did Carole's age get rounded up to "late fifties"? At 52, she is much closer to 50 than 60.

The moment a housewife is disliked, she's immediately aged.  Never fails.  

[Petunia13]

I like Jules but think she looks older than her age. I'm not crazy about Ramona but think she looks younger than her age. When I liked Carole I still said she was homely. Please don't make generalizations about me or my opinions.

A lot of people think Carole is very odd looking or haggard and its not just saying that because they don't like her since she's so completely gorgeous or young looking that anyone saying otherwise is out of spite since their opinion is so impossible to fathom. 

I don't tell any of you why you have posted your opinion so please don't speak on my behalf. 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Petunia13

[breezy424]

Again, as someone else posted,  Carole is not pushing sixty.  Would someone call a  twenty two year old 'pushing' thirty? 

[KFC]

I'm amazed at how much ire Carole seems to incite here. Like, Bethenny? I get. Luann and Ramona, too. They're polarizing, and for good reason.

But Carole's so low wattage and barely on the show, I'm kinda confused at the levels of enflamed conversation her name seems to create. The levels of hate-projection in the episode threads, too. Good god, I don't how many pages of back and forth there were about her use of "girl" and pronunciation of kitten. 

I haven't cared for her and Bethenny as a tag team, whereas I quite liked Carole and Heather together, but even then... She's mostly a non-entity to me.

[Umbelina]

Anyone who likes Bethenny is hated by some.

[Petunia13]

I don't google or memorize the birthdate of every housewife. My father is 52 and she looks older than him and his peers significantly. Eight years is not a big age difference. Especially when guessing. 

I don't like Nene or Kim who are RH of ATL but would guess their ages at late 30s. I think they're in their late 40s but again haven't memorized their birthday and vital stats. This site has mentioned many x in their podcasts how old Luke Perry and Gabrielle Carreris looked on 90210 & snark on that.  I think several posters have said Luann looks older and tired this yr in threads. Each show forum someone might say how old or young a person on a show appears in an insulting or complimentary way. I'm not going to be the only one nic picked or held to be some standard. People say all sorts of snarkiness about Lisa Vanderpump and Kenya Moore housewives I like, say stuff about their looks, skin, but I don't expect anyone to defend their opinion. It feels like the real housewives of ny forum is one where people take things very personally but only with certain posters and only about certain cast members. I am sensitive in RL so have empathy. But I have too much to be hurt or neurotic about that I don't get my back up over differing perspectives here. 

[biakbiak]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Anyone who likes Bethenny is hated by some.

I couldn't stand Carole for her too cool for school attitude from her first season which is long before her friendship with Bethenny.

Edited June 20, 2016 by biakbiak

[ryebread]

5 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I couldn't stand Carole for her too cool for school attitude from her first season which is long before her friendship with Bethenny.

Me, too.  I'll admit that my side-eyeing started over shallow stuff.  Feet on the dashboard, her fingerless black leather gloves, her upset over Lu copying her cape.  Then it moved on to things that made me think she was kind of dumb - pink cigarettes that didn't cause cancer, not being able to speak for herself except when waxing poetic about 'blowies', being proud of barfing on Adam's shoes.

Somewhere in there she told Aviva and Luann that they couldn't possibly be authors because they didn't spend xyz number of years honing their craft.  Told us that writing a book was harder than birthing a baby. Meanwhile, she, the exalted author couldn't even reach a deadline and (I believe) lost her agent as a result.  The grabbing of Aviva's face on the stairs after calling her a 'nothing' for not working out of the house and then starting the gaslighting that happened all season sealed the dislike.  Yeah, I really couldn't stand her at that point. 

That she's besties with the heinous Bethenny is really no surprise and has nothing to do with my initial dislike of her. They are perfect companions.  Bethenny would like to keep it platonic, though.  Subconsciously, Carole would like more.  She told us that she dreamed of touching Bethenny 'inappropriately'. Novel way to suck up, Radzi. Ten points. Then Beth did, what she does and referenced the 1980's, "You mean like Downtown Julie Brown?"  LOL. Those two, match made in heaven. 

[jinjer]

Carole grated on me from the time she started in on Luann.  I felt like we the viewers earned our right to be annoyed with the Countess, but she hadn't put up with enough to dig at her right off the bat.  Plus she was all ballsy in her talking heads and blogs and so quiet in the show. Ryebread ITA that the cutesy look-at-me "I wrap my legs around you when I hug you aren't I special and flakey and just too cute" made my eyes roll down the street with her.  Season 2 she wasn't as bad.  But the names she called Aviva who I also disliked are just as bad as what she has suffered from Luann. Princess Carole can't move on like adults.  When Heather went after Kristen in Montana, she wasn't there for Kristen. She's weak. She's not authentic. She's mean. She thinks she's better than the viewer and the other HWs. She thinks Bethenny is the cat's meow - a mean, bitter, biting, unhappy woman. Anyone who is friends with Andy Cohen is suspect in my book.  There is a lack of moral fiber in that group. They sit around and make fun of people.  Like the attendees at the fashion show in Zoolander.  Vapid, morally bankrupt people whose entire life consists of brunching while talking shit about people they partied with the night before.

In the old days they were all about showing us the charities they participated in. Creaky Joints "The Heart Association" whatever.  I do remember Luann going down to mentor girls and playing basketball with one girl. Now of course Luann said all sorts of stupid shit, but she went down and had face to face, meaningful interaction with the people she was trying to serve.  She didn't write a check and be done with it.  Kelly too for all her foibles goes to the soup kitchen God Love We Deliver and the NYC Food Bank frequently.  Last year Kristen did Smile Train and on her twitter she traveled several times to go to Smile Train events and meet with kids with cleft palates.  It's a lot better than them fighting over stupid shit. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by jinjer

[Yours Truly]

On 6/16/2016 at 5:02 PM, Natalie68 said:

Isn't that kind of insulting to people who have decided to not have children? 

I took it as. What does Carole do all day? The other women have families so there's an automatic assumption that some of that takes up some of their time automatically even if we don't see it.  We know Carole doesn't finish books. We know that there are only so many handle bar rides she can go on on her boytoy's bike. Besides those riveting examples of how full Carole's life is.... what does she do? I took it as a literal question. Not as some put down. Just an observation that hold relevance to how much time she has in her day to do.......what exactly?

[Yours Truly]

On 6/16/2016 at 9:46 PM, jinjer said:

Her mean girl behavior with Bethenny in trying to exclude co-workers who they know depend upon income based upon airtime from filming.  She should be ashamed.  She can't handle conflict like an adult.  Go on her twitter and look. She was no innocent in the whole Luann/Adam conflict. "Fuck'em if they don't like it" isn't the way friends deal with other friend's potentially hurt feelings. She doesn't have to accept Luann's apology, but she does have to move on in social settings and not try to exclude her from events.  Her behavior with Aviva (who was awful in her own right) was much of the same nonsense on Twitter.  For someone who probably has the most interesting past of all the HWs, Carole is probably the most inauthentic, cowardly and poseur-y of all the HWs on the show.  While her blogs are entertaining, she reminds me of Erika Jane who saved much of her stuff for Talking Heads.

THIS!!!

I think this most of all was the smoking gun of it all to be honest. The biggest insult in a friendship is when a grievance is offered up and the other party retaliates with "zero fucks" code. To me, after that, all bets are off. Which is why I sided with Lu in that whole ordeal. Lu could have handled it better but I totally understood what set her off in a way that she's always managed to avoid in all of her seasons on this show. I mean shit she even handled her divorce better than she handled the Carole/Adam/Nicole situation. It was Definitely emotions that put a crack in the armor she wears for this show. I know this is gonna sound crazy but I actually warmed even more to Lu knowing this side of her came out due to her emotional protectiveness for family. No one can ever make me think any different about where her 0-60 reaction was rooted.

[jaync]

Quote

A person can be mocked or questioned for their actions as it's not hate. If you or a thousand of you say or think I'm an idiot it isn't hate.

Agreed, and I don't see the harm in a little "hatin' on" the HWs. However, when you start wishing that they be bludgeoned to death with a golf club, then it might be time to step back and get some perspective. (Likewise, if other posters actually piss you off because they're dissing a particular HW.)

[Yours Truly]

All this talk about Carole pushing 60 has me thinking about when it's time for that gal to get dentures... Can you even imagine? Her current look is pretty similar to the visual effect a lot people end up having when they start wearing dentures.... So when it's her turn... Wowwwwzzaaa!

I wonder if that friend of hers who drew the cartoon for one of her previous blogs (you know the one that had Sonja with one leg up and partially spread, WTF was that?) ever doodled Carole as a Simpson character?  I wouldn't doubt it... LOL!

[Yours Truly]

Quote

 

After watching Carole last season and her total inability to get something written for her publisher - which led to them dumping her - I'm becoming even more of a believer in Aviva's gossip that Carole had a ghost writer for What Remains and The Widow's Guide. Not that the stories and emotions aren't hers, but given what she's been showing us, I'm convinced that she had someone else doing the work of writing. She just doesn't seem to have any ability to buckle down to do the really hard part and write the book. Evident last season and very evident this season with her collaboration with Adam.

And the thing is, there's nothing wrong with having a ghost writer, it's just that she's held herself out as the "real" writer of the group and so far I see little evidence of that.

 

I 100% believe she had loads of help writing her books. No doubt in my mind. Will I go as far as saying ghostwriter? As much as I can't stand the wench I won't however.... I was never happy with how she tried to downplay the real parts that go into getting a book to print. Aviva's mistake was using the term ghostwriter which I understand because Carole's the one that shot that arrow first however what I think happened was that after Carole started throwing that around and made it her business to deem Aviva's efforts less than true author worthiness Aviva tried to use her own words against her. Aviva's defense was to take the offense and try to determine just how much Carole contributed to the publishing process and whether it was all that different than Aviva's experience. No, maybe a ghostwriter wasn't used but my take is that a lot of hands and eyes and people have a touch in the finished product. I think, especially after Aviva herself went through the process and saw just how many people are involved in getting a finished product out to the public, it wasn't too hard for Aviva to envision multiple parties assisting Carole and that she didn't actually push the book out of her vagina as she originally claimed. That it took, editors and even (I don't know what they are called but not quite ghostwriters but something in between where they help contextualize and map out a good flow of progression) to get that book completed.

Now of course I'm sure the story is hers, the wit and the words and sentiment but then there's the structure, the foundation, the mapping out of the storyline flow. Rearranging, rewording.. Yeah, I think Aviva's approach was to highlight the true process that much like raising a child (using Carole's own comparison) it takes a village so in her mind Carole was a bit preachy about soley holding the title author since she didn't create the book all by her lonesome. I think Aviva should have stuck to the more subtle points that even the most experience authors receive redirection and guidelines and suggestions and don't just come up with a perfect product all on their own so for her to be so condescending while having similar processes go on in her own publications and while having such helpful resources at her disposal just reeks of arrogance and misrepresentation all the while trying to cut someone else down for their same efforts. God how I wish Aviva executed this crusade properly. Such a missed opportunity.

[ElDosEquis]

Their are transcribers, writers and authors.

Carole was a transcriber (most news people are) and maybe a writer......Her book probably was culled from a diary/journal and put together by her editor.

[RHJunkie]

On 6/20/2016 at 3:32 PM, Yours Truly said:

I 100% believe she had loads of help writing her books. No doubt in my mind. Will I go as far as saying ghostwriter? As much as I can't stand the wench I won't however.... I was never happy with how she tried to downplay the real parts that go into getting a book to print. Aviva's mistake was using the term ghostwriter which I understand because Carole's the one that shot that arrow first however what I think happened was that after Carole started throwing that around and made it her business to deem Aviva's efforts less than true author worthiness Aviva tried to use her own words against her. Aviva's defense was to take the offense and try to determine just how much Carole contributed to the publishing process and whether it was all that different than Aviva's experience. No, maybe a ghostwriter wasn't used but my take is that a lot of hands and eyes and people have a touch in the finished product. I think, especially after Aviva herself went through the process and saw just how many people are involved in getting a finished product out to the public, it wasn't too hard for Aviva to envision multiple parties assisting Carole and that she didn't actually push the book out of her vagina as she originally claimed. That it took, editors and even (I don't know what they are called but not quite ghostwriters but something in between where they help contextualize and map out a good flow of progression) to get that book completed.

Now of course I'm sure the story is hers, the wit and the words and sentiment but then there's the structure, the foundation, the mapping out of the storyline flow. Rearranging, rewording.. Yeah, I think Aviva's approach was to highlight the true process that much like raising a child (using Carole's own comparison) it takes a village so in her mind Carole was a bit preachy about soley holding the title author since she didn't create the book all by her lonesome. I think Aviva should have stuck to the more subtle points that even the most experience authors receive redirection and guidelines and suggestions and don't just come up with a perfect product all on their own so for her to be so condescending while having similar processes go on in her own publications and while having such helpful resources at her disposal just reeks of arrogance and misrepresentation all the while trying to cut someone else down for their same efforts. God how I wish Aviva executed this crusade properly. Such a missed opportunity.

I wonder if Aviva knows what a ghostwriter is. She definitely suggested that Carole received a lot of help with her book but she wasn't exactly describing a ghostwriter though that's the terminology she was using. She also named her source from the publishing world that told but I haven't seen anything from the source to confirm or deny Aviva's involving them as her source. Why would someone just out someone as their source if they were just making it all up? My theory is that Aviva was told by her source that Carole did receive a lot of help in the process of writing, editing and publishing her book and Aviva probably took that and ran with it to piss off Carole. It was clear that Aviva became a dog with a bone because they she then slammed Carole for gaining her recognition as a writer by cashing in on the Kennedy name. To my knowledge, Carole didn't write about the secrets or personalities of the family. She wrote about her experience and if Carole doesn't have the right to tell her story, who the hell does? I haven't read the book to know for certain if there's any merit to Aviva's accusation about cashing in. Aviva tried to go in for the kill on Carole...too bad for her she showed up to the fight with the dullest knife in the kitchen drawer.

[Yours Truly]

44 minutes ago, RHJunkie said:

I wonder if Aviva knows what a ghostwriter is. She definitely suggested that Carole received a lot of help with her book but she wasn't exactly describing a ghostwriter though that's the terminology she was using. She also named her source from the publishing world that told but I haven't seen anything from the source to confirm or deny Aviva's involving them as her source. Why would someone just out someone as their source if they were just making it all up? My theory is that Aviva was told by her source that Carole did receive a lot of help in the process of writing, editing and publishing her book and Aviva probably took that and ran with it to piss off Carole. It was clear that Aviva became a dog with a bone because they she then slammed Carole for gaining her recognition as a writer by cashing in on the Kennedy name. To my knowledge, Carole didn't write about the secrets or personalities of the family. She wrote about her experience and if Carole doesn't have the right to tell her story, who the hell does? I haven't read the book to know for certain if there's any merit to Aviva's accusation about cashing in. Aviva tried to go in for the kill on Carole...too bad for her she showed up to the fight with the dullest knife in the kitchen drawer.

Aviva shouldn't have tried to strike so deep. Especially by trying to misrepresent the process Carole went through. I think the only reason Aviva got stuck on the word Ghostwriter was because that's how all the nastiness started building which was when Carole decided to ask (assume) if Aviva  is using/used a ghostwriter. After that Ghost writer became the equivalent to Lu mentioning Skinnygirl except that Lu never tried to go as deep as Aviva. Lu used it to get under Beth's skin just like the copying of her haircut. Aviva stupidly went too far with it.

[WireWrap]

34 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

Aviva shouldn't have tried to strike so deep. Especially by trying to misrepresent the process Carole went through. I think the only reason Aviva got stuck on the word Ghostwriter was because that's how all the nastiness started building which was when Carole decided to ask (assume) if Aviva  is using/used a ghostwriter. After that Ghost writer became the equivalent to Lu mentioning Skinnygirl except that Lu never tried to go as deep as Aviva. Lu used it to get under Beth's skin just like the copying of her haircut. Aviva stupidly went too far with it.

Aviva asked Carole to vet a GW for her and that is how it all started. Carole made the mistake of asking about it on camera but I suspect Aviva counted on her doing just that, as she, Aviva, brought up the subject of her book first. Aviva wasn't planning on going on any of the out of town trips (Heathers vacation home or Montana) so she needed something big to keep her central to all the drama and this did exactly that.

Aviva's claim of Carole using a GW is equivalent to Luann claiming she came up with the SKG drink recipe or that Bethenny's mom did, not Bethenny. 

[Petunia13]

6 hours ago, ElDosEquis said:

Their are transcribers, writers and authors.

Carole was a transcriber (most news people are) and maybe a writer......Her book probably was culled from a diary/journal and put together by her editor.

It is interesting the process because it becomes much more of a narrative. And requires an objective lens.  I knew an author who wrote fiction books and screenplays (one was pretty successful as a Tom Hanks movie) and he also journaled his life and published a biography of someone. The styles are really different few can do all these at some level of success. What I like about Bret Easton Ellis is he shattered those boundaries and genres. You have to be a true iconoclast to achieve it and that may be why Carole flounders. There are people who are born artists with visions and a gift that can't be learned. 

"In the deepest hour of the night. 

Confess to yourself that you would die if you were forbidden to write.

And look deep into your heart, where it spreads its roots, the answer,

...and ask yourself, must I write?" - Rilke 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Petunia13

[bravofan27]

I remember the Aviva thing as Aviva telling Carol about her book idea. And CAROLE was the one that asked her if she was going to hire a ghostwriter. Because Aviva is ultra competitive she wanted to get back at her. I remember when Carole said it, because I thought at the time, "Wow, that was incredibly rude, like to just assume that Aviva can't write." It really showed how little Carole thought of her. That was my take on it. But I think the person to first say ghostwriter was Carole. 

[motorcitymom65]

4 hours ago, bravofan27 said:

I remember the Aviva thing as Aviva telling Carol about her book idea. And CAROLE was the one that asked her if she was going to hire a ghostwriter. Because Aviva is ultra competitive she wanted to get back at her. I remember when Carole said it, because I thought at the time, "Wow, that was incredibly rude, like to just assume that Aviva can't write." It really showed how little Carole thought of her. That was my take on it. But I think the person to first say ghostwriter was Carole. 

 

But Carole had explained to the audience that Aviva had asked her to help find a Ghosewriter for her book. This had been something they had worked on together, and Carole didn't know that Aviva was going to deny this fact later. This from Carole's blog at the time. Keep in mind, Aviva admitted that she had asked Carole for this help:

 

"I know it's dramatic, but like an extra on Game of Thrones, Aviva told Heather that it was. . .I who drew first blood!

I did? Here's what happened, it's simple. Aviva asked me to vet a ghostwriter for her, a woman her publisher suggested. So I did. During our lunch at St. Bart's I asked her about it, during a long conversation we were having about writing. "Did you end up hiring the writer?"Those are the words that launched Bookgate. I had no idea she was going to lie to me and say she didn't use one. Had she been honest I would have supported her whole-heartedly, as I did when she signed her book deal, and that would have ended what was already an awkward scene. 

Instead, she said she wrote the book herself. As she described it, it was fun, like "writing a long email." Ouch! No offense to long-emailers but writing a book is nothing like that."

[WireWrap]

4 hours ago, bravofan27 said:

I remember the Aviva thing as Aviva telling Carol about her book idea. And CAROLE was the one that asked her if she was going to hire a ghostwriter. Because Aviva is ultra competitive she wanted to get back at her. I remember when Carole said it, because I thought at the time, "Wow, that was incredibly rude, like to just assume that Aviva can't write." It really showed how little Carole thought of her. That was my take on it. But I think the person to first say ghostwriter was Carole. 

Actually, Aviva asked Carole to vett a GW for her, which she did, and Carole asked her if she used that GW, nothing more. Also, she told Carole that her book was done. Was Carole insensitive to mention the GW on camera? Maybe, but I suspect that Aviva counted on Carole asking her when she told her that she was finished writing the book at that lunch. Aviva had no other storyline that season and she knew she would not go on any of the HW trips so she needed something big to secure her Apple, hence "Bookgate". Aviva baited Carole like a pro.

[RHJunkie]

15 hours ago, Yours Truly said:

Aviva shouldn't have tried to strike so deep. Especially by trying to misrepresent the process Carole went through. I think the only reason Aviva got stuck on the word Ghostwriter was because that's how all the nastiness started building which was when Carole decided to ask (assume) if Aviva  is using/used a ghostwriter. After that Ghost writer became the equivalent to Lu mentioning Skinnygirl except that Lu never tried to go as deep as Aviva. Lu used it to get under Beth's skin just like the copying of her haircut. Aviva stupidly went too far with it.

I honestly can't remember the order of how things transpired. Whether Carole was indignant toward Aviva about writing a book or whether it was Aviva taking exception to Carole outing her looking for a ghostwriter, I know for certain that Aviva started looking side-eye very early on at Carole once they started discussing her book on camera. I don't even think it was the sake of camera time - I think Aviva felt slighted and immaturely decided to just start ranting at Carole about all sorts of things. First it was Carole using a ghostwriter, then she was a leech, etc. The one thing that I think makes someone look guilty when they are making a big deal out of something that even they know is not that big, is when they start bringing in a bunch of other accusations and insults toward the person rather than stick to the one grievance at hand. All the other stuff is just an attempt to justify a harsh stance against someone, in my opinion.

[Yours Truly]

10 minutes ago, RHJunkie said:

I honestly can't remember the order of how things transpired. Whether Carole was indignant toward Aviva about writing a book or whether it was Aviva taking exception to Carole outing her looking for a ghostwriter, I know for certain that Aviva started looking side-eye very early on at Carole once they started discussing her book on camera. I don't even think it was the sake of camera time - I think Aviva felt slighted and immaturely decided to just start ranting at Carole about all sorts of things. First it was Carole using a ghostwriter, then she was a leech, etc. The one thing that I think makes someone look guilty when they are making a big deal out of something that even they know is not that big, is when they start bringing in a bunch of other accusations and insults toward the person rather than stick to the one grievance at hand. All the other stuff is just an attempt to justify a harsh stance against someone, in my opinion.

Exactly, Aviva should have just left it at Carole's slight and went from there. To be honest, had it been me, that little exchange wouldn't have went any further than that lunch because I would have straight up told Carole that I didn't appreciate the implications and that just because she authored two books doesn't mean she gets to judge another persons creative process no matter how eyeroll worthy bucky deems it to be. I would have brought it to the forefront and called her out on the undertone of her comments and checked her. That would have been that. It's ridiculous how messy it got and how far it went.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Yours Truly

[Duke2801]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 3:38 AM, Petunia13 said:

I don't google or memorize the birthdate of every housewife. My father is 52 and she looks older than him and his peers significantly. Eight years is not a big age difference. Especially when guessing. 

I don't like Nene or Kim who are RH of ATL but would guess their ages at late 30s. I think they're in their late 40s but again haven't memorized their birthday and vital stats. This site has mentioned many x in their podcasts how old Luke Perry and Gabrielle Carreris looked on 90210 & snark on that.  I think several posters have said Luann looks older and tired this yr in threads. Each show forum someone might say how old or young a person on a show appears in an insulting or complimentary way. I'm not going to be the only one nic picked or held to be some standard. People say all sorts of snarkiness about Lisa Vanderpump and Kenya Moore housewives I like, say stuff about their looks, skin, but I don't expect anyone to defend their opinion. It feels like the real housewives of ny forum is one where people take things very personally but only with certain posters and only about certain cast members. I am sensitive in RL so have empathy. But I have too much to be hurt or neurotic about that I don't get my back up over differing perspectives here. 

If your father is 52 I am assuming you are still fairly young - or at least under 30. Get back to me you're 42 and somebody "guesses" your age to be 50.  Let me know if it's "not a big age difference" then, K?

No, Carole is not what I would call a traditionally attractive woman, and yes, some would say that's being generous.  In seasons past, I actually found her looks interesting, if not "pretty." However I agree that she's either done something to her face -- fillers or whatever -- that are making her look not so great this season. However, I do not think she looks anywhere close to 60. JMO, of course. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Duke2801

[motorcitymom65]

17 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

Exactly, Aviva should have just left it at Carole's slight and went from there. To be honest, had it been me, that little exchange wouldn't have went any further than that lunch because I would have straight up told Carole that I didn't appreciate the implications and that just because she authored two books doesn't mean she gets to judge another persons creative process no matter how eyeroll worthy bucky deems it to be. I would have brought it to the forefront and called her out on the undertone of her comments and checked her. That would have been that. It's ridiculous how messy it got and how far it went.

It did go way to far, but I'm not sure how I would have felt in Carole's shoes. Aviva had approached her for help. Carole did the work for her as requested. Then she asks how it worked out with the person she had vetted for her, and Aviva denies not only that she used her, but acted like the very idea was crazy. Why would she need a GW? She was lying and making it look like Carole was out of line with the questioning. As Carole said in her blog, she was happy for Aviva when she got the book deal, was happy to help her find a GW, but didn't appreciate Aviva lying about it all. 

[Yours Truly]

7 hours ago, bravofan27 said:

I remember the Aviva thing as Aviva telling Carol about her book idea. And CAROLE was the one that asked her if she was going to hire a ghostwriter. Because Aviva is ultra competitive she wanted to get back at her. I remember when Carole said it, because I thought at the time, "Wow, that was incredibly rude, like to just assume that Aviva can't write." It really showed how little Carole thought of her. That was my take on it. But I think the person to first say ghostwriter was Carole. 

Exactly how I remember it too. I remember her comment affecting me the same way that's why I say it was Carole that changed the tone of that conversation. It was a rude thing to say and I also remember it coming out in such way that I was sitting in my living room thinking what a bitch. I received it as in "you're using a ghostwriter right? Cause you can't possibly think you can do this on your own". Now she didn't say exactly that but that's the message that came across to me and just in her tone, she was giving off this vibe like she felt the whole idea was comical. There also seemed to be a bit of disdain that Aviva was even venturing on this course. See that all came across to me so I completely get why Aviva took such offense. Hell I was mad for Aviva when that whole scene played out. It wasn't just a word, there was Carole's tone, vibe and most of all condescension that played a part in what started it all. However, that shit should have only lasted that episode and should have been handled before they finished their meet up. The ridiculous spins that happened afterwards was just so damn stupid. It really reminds me of the Lu thing with Carole. It started off with a fixable conflict but the mishandling of the situation and the aftershocks is what really causes the meat of the war and not the initial act itself. Carol's found herself in two conflicts now where that was the recipe.

And her blog doesn't change the affect her bringing it up had on my reaction when I first saw the scene. There was intention to minimize Aviva's end product. A point had to be made that Aviva wasn't in the same league as Carole and the viewers needed to know that so "lets bring up the ghostwriter". I mean there was no way that Carole was going to let it fly that Aviva just shit a book out easy breezy while she Carole actually goes through the hours and hours of labor to birth her works of art.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Yours Truly

[Yours Truly]

9 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

It did go way to far, but I'm not sure how I would have felt in Carole's shoes. Aviva had approached her for help. Carole did the work for her as requested. Then she asks how it worked out with the person she had vetted for her, and Aviva denies not only that she used her, but acted like the very idea was crazy. Why would she need a GW? She was lying and making it look like Carole was out of line with the questioning. As Carole said in her blog, she was happy for Aviva when she got the book deal, was happy to help her find a GW, but didn't appreciate Aviva lying about it all. 

I truly believe Aviva was taken aback at the timing. I recognized Aviva's behavior as classic deny, deny, deny when not knowing how to react to someone deliberately blowing your spot for the sake of humiliating you. Carole "sharing" that Aviva asked for her to vet a ghostwriter in the off season does nothing to change my impression of how that scene played out. I remember getting the message loud and clear and the message was that Carole wasn't going to let the viewers believe that Aviva just put out a book just like that. That would suggest the process is that easy that just anybody can do it and Carole wasn't about to let it go down that way. I go by how that scene made me feel. I remember thinking wow, that was just ugly. I know Carole suggests it was all innocent but til this day I remember watching that scene and how it made me feel. Carole was stealth about it but her bringing up the ghost writer was far from innocent and I think that is what Aviva reacted to and in order not to give Carole what she wanted (which was making sure that the very introduction of her book on the show led with Aviva not being the one who actually wrote it, cause of course that was the first thing the viewers needed to hear in Carole's mind) she denied it to thwart Carole's attempt at raining on her parade right out of the gate.

Finding out afterwards that Carole was asked to vet ghost writers does nothing for me.  Aviva was excitedly talking about her book on camera obviously. Of course she's going to use the season to do this. She's sharing and having the conversation and is happy about it. Still on her high, wanting to share it with the audience and here comes Carole ready to share this bit of information unnecessarily.  I believe that was Aviva's first time introducing  the subject of her completing the book during filming. This happened pretty early in the season. One of the first episodes if I'm not mistaken. Here Aviva comes into the season excited about being able to advertise her book, share her excitement over it being finished etc. etc. and Carole, decides that the detail about the ghostwriter should be included in all of Aviva's gushing over the book. I mean really? It just MUST be inquired about at exactly at that moment? Basically what ran through my head was "Damn Carole. Can't let her have her moment for not even a second? Really?" Carole's the real author of the bunch and she's not gonna let someone else bask in the glow of achievement if she doesn't deem them worthy. That's how it came across to me. Like a mean girl who just can't let the homely girl be the center of attention for one night without dropping some embarrassing bomb on her moment. You've seen the movies. That's exactly how that scene played out for me and that is why I was on Aviva's side. I just wish Aviva hadn't taken it where she did cause Carole did end up getting what she wanted.

[Petunia13]

Quote

If your father is 52 I am assuming you are still fairly young - or at least under 30. Get back to me you're 42 and somebody "guesses" your age to be 50.  Let me know if it's "not a big age difference" then, K?

I'm in my 30's. I've often told people I am 40 if is it is some kid asking me out or a person patronizing me about life or going to school or marriage since I'm have experienced that stuff and am in fact a middle aged woman. It can be insulting to be thought to look younger or described in those terms because that means the criteria has shifted due to plastic surgery and thirst. I wasn't going to really reply anymore since I feel I'm singled out compared to others making appearance comments and there's too much fighting on this particular hw flagship forum; but it's an interesting hot button about age and what represents it. Like what I said about Carole was dismissed as simply disliking her and bias. I don't really like as housewives Kim Fields or NeNe and they are slaying! Or Ramona who looks young. Or Lisa Bonet, Christy Brinkley, Iman, or (ugh) Stacey Dash. And people I know in RL.

We have different paradigms. I have always thought Anjelica Huston and Jamie Boucert are beautiful but they have always had very mature and compelling faces. When it comes to age guessing it is not a beauty contest by any means but just I thought she looked older without the benefit of having known her birthdate. 

There was something I wanted to say about Carole that is completely unconnected to this which was again a surface observation. I don't like her comments about mental illness as an insult to Luanne and Aviva. Because I don't think she really believes it or says it out of concern for them. But as an insult. When we remove calling someone crazy, bipolar, personality disordered as a read. It removes it as a stigma . Back in the day some people called someone lame or nerdy-  gay or retarded. That shit wouldn't fly now. 

And even if haha she doesn't really think Luann or Aviva are personality disordered or bipolar some viewers might be and react to that stigma perpetuated and refuse accepting it or treatment. I think it's really dangerous when that is done casually or with malice. 

[OhGromit]

Aviva is a horrible, horrible woman with a personality disorder.  

[Petunia13]

I think probably if you or Carole knew someone who had a personality disorder and they commited suicide or killed a family member it wouldn't be a word bandied about lightly. 

I mentioned in Bethany's thread my mom has rapid cycling bipolar disorder and she's attempted suicide. my bf in college jumped off a bridge. Another person I was v close to commited a violent crime against a family member. Part of the reason they deny treatment is because of the rhetoric and views of others and I mean I know it's hard to fathom or have empathy for but I live (d) loving those people. And Carole fancies herself intellectual and begs for sympathy so I hope she someday gets it. 

[ryebread]

33 minutes ago, OhGromit said:

Aviva is a horrible, horrible woman with a personality disorder.  

And that's no wonder after her horrible trauma as a child and then likely being ostracized her whole childhood because of her disability.  That doesn't give her a pass to be an ass for her whole life but imo, most of the other women were absolute turds to her.  Especially Heather who has her own special needs child who has probably been gawked at by children and insensitive adults, too.

I'm pretty certain it takes some kind of personality disorder to sign a contract to be a HW anyway.  All of them are disordered. 

[Yours Truly]

I wonder who in this world hasn't experienced some sort of emotional or mental extreme. As hard and stressful as life is in general I would find it quite hard to find someone who hasn't displayed extreme emotional distress at some point in their lives. A lot of medical disorders are brought on by environmental factors and not just a genetic predisposition. However whichever way you slice it you never really see anyone on these shows lobby that around in a good way which I feel is the lowest of the low. Whether it's true or not that the person in question is actually medically impaired the subject is never treated with respect and is usually used as a way to cut another one of them down. It's either used as an incorrect label to insult someone or if true its worse that they use it as an explanation for why is was okay to have a negative/mean reaction to someone else. I never understood how any of them think using these terms and reasons somehow explains away their nasty reaction to someone else. Like they literally think its the perfect justification for their heinous treatment. It's mindboggling I tell you because to me it's the most despicable way to excuse your own terrible behavior. Pretty much saying "Well she cray cray so of course I was a bitch to her". Or "what else should I have done, bitch was crazy so she deserved to be treated like shit" I mean Huh????

Edited June 22, 2016 by Yours Truly

[RHJunkie]

3 hours ago, Yours Truly said:

Exactly how I remember it too. I remember her comment affecting me the same way that's why I say it was Carole that changed the tone of that conversation. It was a rude thing to say and I also remember it coming out in such way that I was sitting in my living room thinking what a bitch. I received it as in "you're using a ghostwriter right? Cause you can't possibly think you can do this on your own". Now she didn't say exactly that but that's the message that came across to me and just in her tone, she was giving off this vibe like she felt the whole idea was comical. There also seemed to be a bit of disdain that Aviva was even venturing on this course. See that all came across to me so I completely get why Aviva took such offense. Hell I was mad for Aviva when that whole scene played out. It wasn't just a word, there was Carole's tone, vibe and most of all condescension that played a part in what started it all. However, that shit should have only lasted that episode and should have been handled before they finished their meet up. The ridiculous spins that happened afterwards was just so damn stupid. It really reminds me of the Lu thing with Carole. It started off with a fixable conflict but the mishandling of the situation and the aftershocks is what really causes the meat of the war and not the initial act itself. Carol's found herself in two conflicts now where that was the recipe.

And her blog doesn't change the affect her bringing it up had on my reaction when I first saw the scene. There was intention to minimize Aviva's end product. A point had to be made that Aviva wasn't in the same league as Carole and the viewers needed to know that so "lets bring up the ghostwriter". I mean there was no way that Carole was going to let it fly that Aviva just shit a book out easy breezy while she Carole actually goes through the hours and hours of labor to birth her works of art.

The Carole vs Aviva debate regarding the order of how things transpired seems to be influenced by how one takes the word of both women in their blogs/articles and anything else where they've addressed the behind the scenes precursor to BookGate. Carole said that Aviva asked her to vet a ghostwriter for her while Aviva says that the initial draft was completed and she was looking for other people to go from there with helping her. I've seen a number of occasions where Aviva lumped in ghostwriter with editor, advisor, etc. but the only suspect thing is that if it was Carole's use of the term 'ghostwriter' that offended Aviva, then I don't think that really works with my theory that Aviva is not sure of what the term truly means and simply uses it interchangeably with all the other publishing terms. Or maybe she was toying with the idea (or really did want a ghostwriter) but felt that Carole brought it up on camera as a way to diminish Aviva's role in the project than being actually interested in the process. I'd have to go back and watch the episodes to break down my interpretation of how the events unfolded but I'm all wrapped up in the current season to have any time to go back and do that, lol.

Edited June 22, 2016 by RHJunkie

[shoegal]

1 hour ago, Petunia13 said:

I think probably if you or Carole knew someone who had a personality disorder and they commited suicide or killed a family member it wouldn't be a word bandied about lightly. 

I mentioned in Bethany's thread my mom has rapid cycling bipolar disorder and she's attempted suicide. my bf in college jumped off a bridge. Another person I was v close to commited a violent crime against a family member. Part of the reason they deny treatment is because of the rhetoric and views of others and I mean I know it's hard to fathom or have empathy for but I live (d) loving those people. And Carole fancies herself intellectual and begs for sympathy so I hope she someday gets it. 

I think that's probably true for a lot of things and a lot of people.  It's fairly common and innocuous for people to say things like 'you almost gave me a heart attack' or 'I almost had a coronary', but for people like me who have painfully and traumatically lost a loved one to a heart attack, it stings.  I remember a conversation like this with a friend who lost her brother to suicide, and how much it hurt when people mimic shooting themselves in the head with their finger gun (often with especially lovely sound effects).  So yes, is it wrong or hurtful or insensitive to make comments about personality disorders and the like, sure.  Does it make them a bad person?  I don't think so, I think it's something we've all done a time or two, even people who have suffered our own losses and have our own sensitivities.  JMO.

[quaintirene]

I think it's entirely possible that Carole wrote What Remains herself.  I've often seen that--someone who has been through something extraordinary or traumatizing and has written an incredibly interesting and emotionally impactful memoir about it.  However that doesn't mean that the writer can do much else.  Publishing is full of 1-trick ponies.  She definitely had a 'writing partner' on her first season on the show.  We saw her send material to that partner and she said--if I recall correctly--that it was her partner who called her about the wonderful amazing extraordinary 'tv deal' for Widow's Guide.  I always assumed 'writing partner'='co-writer' at least.  

[Yours Truly]

1 hour ago, RHJunkie said:

The Carole vs Aviva debate regarding the order of how things transpired seems to be influenced by how one takes the word of both women in their blogs/articles and anything else where they've addressed the behind the scenes precursor to BookGate. Carole said that Aviva asked her to vet a ghostwriter for her while Aviva says that the initial draft was completed and she was looking for other people to go from there with helping her. I've seen a number of occasions where Aviva lumped in ghostwriter with editor, advisor, etc. but the only suspect thing is that if it was Carole's use of the term 'ghostwriter' that offended Aviva, then I don't think that really works with my theory that Aviva is not sure of what the term truly means and simply uses it interchangeably with all the other publishing terms. Or maybe she was toying with the idea (or really did want a ghostwriter) but felt that Carole brought it up on camera as a way to diminish Aviva's role in the project than being actually interested in the process. I'd have to go back and watch the episodes to break down my interpretation of how the events unfolded but I'm all wrapped up in the current season to have any time to go back and do that, lol.

The bolded is exactly what I think Carole's intention was. Not that huge of a deal but I think it was just the random need to be hurtful that stood out for me. Such a small gesture but spoke volumes.

[jaync]

Quote

That doesn't give her a pass to be an ass for her whole life but imo, most of the other women were absolute turds to her.  Especially Heather who has her own special needs child who has probably been gawked at by children and insensitive adults, too.

Aviva was a hosebeast who always gave as good or better than she got. None of the HWs treated her shittedly because she wore a prosthesis.

[WireWrap]

4 hours ago, ryebread said:

And that's no wonder after her horrible trauma as a child and then likely being ostracized her whole childhood because of her disability.  That doesn't give her a pass to be an ass for her whole life but imo, most of the other women were absolute turds to her.  Especially Heather who has her own special needs child who has probably been gawked at by children and insensitive adults, too.

I'm pretty certain it takes some kind of personality disorder to sign a contract to be a HW anyway.  All of them are disordered. 

At no time did any of the HWs treat Aviva differently because of her disability/accident even though Aviva used it as an excuse to miss events/trips and act badly towards others. Aviva used her disability, just as Bethenny uses her childhood, as a free pass to act like a jerk without repercussions. Both women need to grow up and stop blaming what happened to themselves in childhood for their nasty adult behavior.

[OhGromit]

4 hours ago, Petunia13 said:

I think probably if you or Carole knew someone who had a personality disorder and they commited suicide or killed a family member it wouldn't be a word bandied about lightly. 

I mentioned in Bethany's thread my mom has rapid cycling bipolar disorder and she's attempted suicide. my bf in college jumped off a bridge. Another person I was v close to commited a violent crime against a family member. Part of the reason they deny treatment is because of the rhetoric and views of others and I mean I know it's hard to fathom or have empathy for but I live (d) loving those people. And Carole fancies herself intellectual and begs for sympathy so I hope she someday gets it. 

My mother has borderline personality disorder; it's something I'm very familiar with.  I honestly believe Aviva has a personality disorder.  We can certainly disagree.  

[Duke2801]

4 hours ago, ryebread said:

And that's no wonder after her horrible trauma as a child and then likely being ostracized her whole childhood because of her disability.  That doesn't give her a pass to be an ass for her whole life but imo, most of the other women were absolute turds to her.  Especially Heather who has her own special needs child who has probably been gawked at by children and insensitive adults, too.

I'm pretty certain it takes some kind of personality disorder to sign a contract to be a HW anyway.  All of them are disordered. 

IIRC, it was only Ramona who was a "turd" to her in St. Barts. Carole and Heather stuck up for her, hung out with her, and were generally good friends to her --- despite her bitchy, psychotic side (aka: the real Aviva) starting to peek through (aka: banners and parades).

Carole only turned on Aviva in response to the nasty things that Aviva said. Aviva was simply trying to drum up interest in her stupid book and she knew that getting a little drama going with Carole would very likely do that (plus: extra screen time). I think she underestimated Carole's response. Just like with Luanne and the "pedophile" nonsense.