S07.E05: The Demon

[KenyaJ]

9 hours ago, quarks said:

And to think that last season I dared to hope that the production budgets really had improved across the board and we were leaving this sort of thing behind.

They clearly took money from the production budget to pay the cast of thousands.

51 minutes ago, tv echo said:

The Felicity-E2 Laurel dynamic works to a certain extent. But it requires that the viewer have selective amnesia.

Yeah, this is why I'm wary f it. I don't mind a team-up of convenience to get Diaz off the board. But before they veer into any kind of friendship, I'm going to need Laurel to acknowledge that the reason Diaz is still free to terrorize Felicity is because of her "heroics" when Oliver had him captured. Additionally, someone is going to have to call her out for working with Prometheus. And finally, she's going to have to suffer some kind of consequences for all the remorseless killing we've seen her do. Watching her engage in snarky banter with Felicity is entertaining, but it's not "redemption" and I'm not so desperate for Felicity to have a friend that I'll accept the nearest remorseful murderess.

[apinknightmare]

I would be pleasantly surprised if they did anything other than the laziest route possible by bringing up anything she’s done beyond the revenge spiral she already admitting to regretting because she’s trying hard to be a good girl now. 

[Primal Slayer]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

The Felicity-E2 Laurel dynamic works to a certain extent. But it requires that the viewer have selective amnesia. For example, there's this piece of dialogue:

Dinah: "Hi. Wow. Okay. Since when are you two friends?"
Felicity: "Well, we decided to start a support group for women who've been attacked by Diaz."
E2 Laurel: "Or his assassins. Do you care to join?"

Uh, Black Siren, you were one of his assassins. Remember that poor girl in the parking garage who you attacked and murdered?

She was Cayden James assassin technically. By the time she got with Diaz she wasn't killing anyone and ended up his captive so the dialogue should work as is.

[apinknightmare]

Didn’t she kill a couple of people to help him on his quest to get into whatever that idiotic crime syndicate was called? 

[Primal Slayer]

4 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Didn’t she kill a couple of people to help him on his quest to get into whatever that idiotic crime syndicate was called? 

I just remember those goons she took out in the Dragon episode who could've been dead or alive. 

[apinknightmare]

Just now, Primal Slayer said:

I just remember those goons she took out in the Dragon episode who could've been dead or alive. 

So the dialogue doesn’t necessarily work as is. 

[Primal Slayer]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

So the dialogue doesn’t necessarily work as is. 

If she didn't kill them. It does.

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Primal Slayer said:

If she didn't kill them. It does.

If she did, it doesn’t. And we don’t know the answer to that. 

[Primal Slayer]

Though either way they are referring to the LBH which is something she's never been part of.

[apinknightmare]

But they are making a choice of glossing over her role in helping Diaz as if she had only ever been his victim, and she hadn’t. So it’s not wrong to call it out. 

[calliope1975]

Girlfriend murdered her way through multiple Earths. I don't think I'm ever here for a redemption arc. She still willingly, deliberately melted a hero's brain. Something she very easily could have not done with her abilities. Even if I set aside Vigilante's death, she still murdered an entire building full of people in addition to the rando innocents she slaughtered. A couple episodes where I don't necessarily wish death upon her isn't going to change that. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by calliope1975

[Primal Slayer]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

If she did, it doesn’t. And we don’t know the answer to that. 

Well she definitely didn't kill them watching it back. 

[apinknightmare]

I’ll take your word for it. I don’t care about the answer enough to watch that trash. 

[Primal Slayer]

8 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

But they are making a choice of glossing over her role in helping Diaz as if she had only ever been his victim, and she hadn’t. So it’s not wrong to call it out. 

They totally are glossing  but she wasn't his assassin and she was attacked by him. If Dinah called her out for working with him that'd be true statement

[apinknightmare]

Just now, Primal Slayer said:

They totally are glossing  but she wasn't his assassin and she was attacked by him. If Dinah called her out for working with him that'd be true statement

And she should’ve done that. The only reason Laurel became a victim is because she was slimy and murderous enough to choose to work with him in the first place - whether she actually followed through with killing people or was just willing to and never did. 

[Primal Slayer]

17 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Girlfriend murdered her way through multiple Earths. I don't think I'm ever here for a redemption arc. She still willingly, deliberately melted a hero's brain. Something she very easily could have not done with her abilities. Even if I set aside Vigilante's death, she still murdered an entire building full of people in addition to the rando innocents she slaughtered. A couple episodes where I don't necessarily wish death upon her isn't going to change that. 

 

Are we considering Vigilante a hero now? Didn't ge attempt to kill TA?

Not that it changes the melting of his brain either way.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Primal Slayer

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

They totally are glossing  but she wasn't his assassin 

What exactly do you think Diaz kept her on his payroll and by his side to do? Does Diaz seem like the type to graciously let his enemies live after a fight? Not to mention all the examples we saw on screen of BS choosing to kill instead of just disable. You think she just what, suddenly decided not to do that anymore because she changed bosses?

Edited November 13, 2018 by lemotomato

[wmdekooning]

15 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

I love what a badass Oliver is in prison, but I'm ready for this storyline to wrap up. It's not accomplishing anything except giving SA some great action scenes again. And I'm all for that, but he can get great action scenes on the outside, with the added bonus that his wife can kiss his wounds afterwards.

In this "Verse" does Green Arrow/Oliver Queen have some sort of Wolverine healing factor?

I'm pretty sure that a half-dozen guys beating on you with truncheons is going to at best have you black and blue, lying as still as possible on a cot, pissing blood. However, next scene of Oliver he is sitting up in his cot, not particularly worse for the wear. Incredibly prison badarse, however quite implausible... 

[insomniadreams88]

I still can't believe how much I enjoyed the Felicity/Laurel scenes in this episode. Yes, I'm annoyed they're ignoring everything Black Siren has done to Felicity and her family and when she worked for Diaz, but I really liked Laurel's awkwardness when she asked Felicity to join her for pizza. 

Also, I think I'm more annoyed by Diggle's behavior right now. I'm used to Arrow barely caring about Laurel Lance plots. I'm sick and tired of having to just accept that Arrow doesn't really care about Felicity and Diggle's friendship. 

[KenyaJ]

36 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

What exactly do you think Diaz kept her on his payroll and by his side to do? Does Diaz seem like the type to graciously let his enemies live after a fight? Not to mention all the examples we saw on screen of BS choosing to kill instead of just disable. You think she just what, suddenly decided not to do that anymore because she changed bosses?

Maybe they were both just in it for the nookie.

[lemotomato]

13 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Maybe they were both just in it for the nookie.

If two sadistic murderers who use their difficult formative years to excuse their evil behavior can’t make their relationship work, romance is surely dead.

[apinknightmare]

19 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Maybe they were both just in it for the nookie.

?

[mrspidey]

Again with the stupid telling-not-showing of how people get out of tough situations...

First, it was not showing us how Diaz got out of Felicity's place when Argus busted in. 

Second, it was not showing how Rene, OFF ALL PEOPLE, was able to capture Silencer.

And now Diaz singlehandedly goes through at least two dozen Bratva flunkys to get to Anatoli and he doesn't even have a fucking scratch? How???

 

Stop being so goddamn lazy, writers!

 

Oh well, at least they let us know that Bruce is doing his thing in Gotham by telling us he was the one who put Talia behind bars. Telling us, mind you...

[way2interested]

5 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

And now Diaz singlehandedly goes through at least two dozen Bratva flunkys to get to Anatoli and he doesn't even have a fucking scratch? How???

To be fair, they just established he got a super duper drug that gives him some sort of super strength and a form of invulnerability, so presumably using his new fancy drug, so it's showing how super duper the drug is, even though it's a weird thing in the story in general

[ladylaw99]

I hate Oliver's beard.  That's all I got out of this episode.

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

I hate Oliver's beard.  That's all I got out of this episode.

I still don't get why Oliver has a shaved head but a full beard. If you can shave your head, you can shave your beard! And it's not even the comic accurate goatee so it seems pointless, haha.

[Primal Slayer]

3 hours ago, lemotomato said:

What exactly do you think Diaz kept her on his payroll and by his side to do? Does Diaz seem like the type to graciously let his enemies live after a fight? Not to mention all the examples we saw on screen of BS choosing to kill instead of just disable. You think she just what, suddenly decided not to do that anymore because she changed bosses?

You mean besides the whole point he was sleeping with her and using her as a means to work bts? We saw her kill the first half of the season, if we were supposed to see her not change a smidge we probably would've seen her kill afterwards but she became much more of an informant besides the time they traveled to the big bad wolves.

[Quark]

Diggle and Curtis were super boring, but the rest was enjoyable, especially anything involving Talia (I love her).

Her Gotham mention was interesting. I wonder if she could be involved in the Batwoman spinoff? That would be loads of fun, especially if Bruce and Damien are involved...

Edited November 13, 2018 by Quark

[KenyaJ]

49 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I still don't get why Oliver has a shaved head but a full beard. If you can shave your head, you can shave your beard! And it's not even the comic accurate goatee so it seems pointless, haha.

Word. And I've never heard of a single prison that didn't have a barber. The only reason this beard exists is to torture us.

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Word. And I've never heard of a single prison that didn't have a barber. The only reason this beard exists is to torture us.

It's so he can hide stuff in it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, KenyaJ said:

Word. And I've never heard of a single prison that didn't have a barber. The only reason this beard exists is to torture us.

Plus it makes him look like he’s some whacked out NeoNazi-just like the many extras who were such on original recipe Law & Order. Guess he wouldn’t look like a criminal if he looked liked his normal self.

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

It's so he can hide stuff in it.

????????

[statsgirl]

20 hours ago, TrueMyth said:

- Oliver is essentially back to where he was two or three episodes ago because the Demon didn't know anything... except that she kind of had to know SOMETHING since Diaz did coordinate his attack with the shower attack on Oliver, so Talia totally did think that Oliver's wife would be killed and didn't care, AND she had some way to get information from Diaz even though level two had no visitors, so how they heck did that work? But for Oliver, he's back in his cell with a vague message about Felicity closing in on Diaz.

- Felicity is, I guess, technically closer to two of her goals: 1) They somehow have evidence against the prison that might get Oliver out in Arrowverse court? So says the not-lawyer? and 2) They have a working tracker on Silencer, a few feet from Diaz (and apparently she has street-level tracking and maps of Moscow?). I guess these are both good, but #1 seems so weak on a rational level, especially since I got the impression that seeing Talia kill the doctor right after that scene was supposed to make me think that they can't get stuff to stick without the doctor to admit to his wrong doing, and #2 ... I honestly don't understand why they haven't taken down Diaz aaaages ago, so this doesn't feel like real progress because it is more just confirmation that Diaz is still alive?

Okay, now I don't like Talia again.  She also apparently arranged for the attack on Oliver in 7x01 based on Diaz telling her to do it. Why is this season making me like characters that I wouldn't otherwise because they've taken away everyone from Felicity who should have been support her(416) 691-7643

I'd have to watch it again to know for sure but I got the impression that Felicity finding the dirt on Parker caused Level 2 to be disclosed and therefore shut down. I"m not thrilled at Oliver being back on Level 1 (wash, rinse, repeat) but I did like that Felicity still saves the day whether it's with tech or paper files.

3 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I still don't get why Oliver has a shaved head but a full beard. If you can shave your head, you can shave your beard!

That look reminds me of some young Arab men I know.  I guess it's a popular look in the Middle East.

[calliope1975]

44 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

She also apparently arranged for the attack on Oliver in 7x01 based on Diaz telling her to do it.

The thought that Talia MF'ing al Ghul had to take orders from DDDiaz boggles my mind. Batman is weeping.

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, calliope1975 said:

The thought that Talia MF'ing al Ghul had to take orders from DDDiaz boggles my mind. Batman is weeping.

I can just picture Diaz yelling "TALIAAAAA!!!!" in his stupid tantrum voice like he swallowed 10,000 razors. 

[BkWurm1]

22 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

 

***

I enjoy the BS/Felicity dynamic but it feels like the Ray/Felicity island of S3 a bit to me despite BS helping Felicity track Diaz/save Oliver. The show is dark and dank but then they are all sprightly when they are together with Felicity giving BS lessons in empathy and the other clumsily (and humorously) navigating her way through empathy. I mean it was one of the better parts of the episode and I enjoyed it but it feels out of place with the  mood of everything else and all the serial killing that BS did. It's Arrow though so I'm just gonna go with the flow after I make this comment.

1

I think why the dynamic is working for me is I find it in character for Felicity to make jokes when she's upset and I equally buy that NotLaurel wouldn't care if her tone is too light for the serious nature of what they are doing.  Or be so worried about Felicity or the situation that she wouldn't just decide to go for a pizza date.  Her lack of empathy is what makes me believe that she could be a place where Felicity could find a space to briefly forget her heavy troubles and just be snarky or take a break from her life. 

With her and Ray, it felt fake and forced, like Felicity was sticking her head in the sand and wearing a mask at the same time.  With Felicity and Laurel, they aren't pretending all is great but the humor still surfaces often in conjunction with the awfulness.  

I can absolutely buy a surface kind of friendship from how this has been set up but would I believe Felicity would trust BS once their interests were not aligned?  I can see her forgiving her if she proved she was now going to be reformed but I think it would take more than a fake day job and seeking revenge on Diaz to prove it to her.    And for that to go a step further and for Felicity to really consider her a true friend, someone she would implicitly trust like Diggle, yeah, can't imagine what that would take.  But since we are nowhere near that, I'm good with the current alliance.  

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So why didn't ARGUS use Human Target for that mission....I mean other than Curtis needed to be the most intellectual intellectual to have ALL the PHDs, and is also a polyglot.  JFC, the more they pile on with Curtis the more I hate him. I think if Echo Kellum had any charm I might be able to tolerate him but nope. 

So has Talia been posing as GA all this time or what? Or is that someone else? I was kind of confused by that

 

3

Part of what made this whole Curtis plot so dull was first they created the problem out of nowhere in 7-01 (Curtis has retired from the field) before instantly fixing it in one episode with a simple pep talk.  It would have been way more interesting and Curtis far more sympathetic if the reasons for his new found phobia had been born out of guilt for what had gone down last year with the NTA and how that resulted in seeing Felicity's life ruined.  Then he could have reflected that HIS desire to go out in the field had been what ruined his marriage and one of the missions had almost gotten the new boyfriend killed as well. 

Instead, the whole thing was presented as all this horrible stuff had just happened to Curtis rather than him embracing it and making it happen and even now Curtis is still all about how awesome he is and how smart he is and acting super content with his new safe life.  As much as Curtis has bugged me since last year, him being afraid to go back out in the field really isn't in character so it is doubly dull and unconvincing when they faked the problem just so they could quickly fix it.  

20 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

So Talia totally gonna be the mother of GA

This makes a lot of sense.  We even have a reason for her to be in town, mom in jail nearby.  

19 hours ago, DeadZeus said:

Oliver apologising for killing a complete maniac that kept hurting everyone around him, almost killed his sister and his entire city. And he would stop at nothing…  And Oliver apologises for killing him… UGH, would have been way more impactful if Talia finally saw the monster in Ra's and didn't need that apology…

Badass action... Needs way more of that.

I don't mind the apology for the same reason I was eventually ok with Felicity apologizing to Oliver for how their break up went.  It isn't always about thinking you did something wrong but using it to offer a bridge to the other person at that moment.  Oliver can be sorry Talia was upset without thinking he'd made the totally wrong choice.  And it's easy to apologize if you don't have to worry about Ra's still out there trying to kill him or his city, lol.  Also, he was clearly supposed to be emoting with the criminals in jail who he has now learned have families...as if Felicity didn't point that out to him in season one.  

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

The thought that Talia MF'ing al Ghul had to take orders from DDDiaz boggles my mind. Batman is weeping.

She seemed to think she was paying a debt she owed.  So I guess I can see that by her code she had to do what Diaz asked as payment so in her mind it a debt of honor and when it came to Oliver and his family, totes not personal. 

Also, if the supposed reason she survived the island was the super drug why did Diaz not take the super drug until just recently?  Also didn't he only JUST acquire it?  So how did she get it before?  Also, is anyone ever going to explain how or why Cayden James knew to send Diaz (I assume Diaz since NotLaurel said James sent someone and Talia now said Diaz saved her) to an obscure island in the North China see after it was blown up? 

Edited November 14, 2018 by BkWurm1

[TrueMyth]

5 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I still don't get why Oliver has a shaved head but a full beard. If you can shave your head, you can shave your beard! And it's not even the comic accurate goatee so it seems pointless, haha.

Maybe they do have a barber who just HATES Oliver. He shaves him bald and refuses to touch his facial hair. Something like this:

RIP Stan Lee.

[BkWurm1]

I'm going to miss his cameos.  I wonder how many he already had in the can for upcoming movies.  Though if Infinity Wars or the part two was the last, it would be a fitting place to end.  

Edited November 14, 2018 by BkWurm1

[mxc90]

Laurel said to Dinah: Dr. Jarrett Parker with a "P". Is there another way to spell Parker or was she insulting Dinah's intelligence?

The very dangerous and tough Slabside doesn't have strict rules for dining etiquette and visitation. Oliver and Talia left their plates on the table and walked away (as if there's servants to clean up for them) and that guy was allowed to talk to Felicity and another person in one visit.

No Rene this week is a good thing!

[quarks]

18 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Oh well, at least they let us know that Bruce is doing his thing in Gotham by telling us he was the one who put Talia behind bars. Telling us, mind you...

This is one thing I'll give them a pass on, since they're kinda stuck in the uncomfortable position of a) trying to ramp up interest in the crossovers/Batwoman spinoff by throwing in Gotham/Bats references while simultaneously b) not being allowed to actually use Batman. I thought the reference was slightly awkward, but a little less awkward than Flash telling us that comic book artists living in Gotham are calling up Central City architects.

[BunsenBurner]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm going to miss his cameos.  I wonder how many he already had in the can for upcoming movies.  Though if Infinity Wars or the part two was the last, it would be a fitting place to end.  

For sure Avengers 4  (Avengers Annihilation).

[KenyaJ]

12 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Also, if the supposed reason she survived the island was the super drug why did Diaz not take the super drug until just recently?  Also didn't he only JUST acquire it?  So how did she get it before?  

I assumed she was talking not about the drug that Diaz is taking, but about the one Diaz sold Diggle last year. But with these writers, who knows? Attention to detail isn't their strongest suit.

[jay741982]

12 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm going to miss his cameos.  I wonder how many he already had in the can for upcoming movies.  Though if Infinity Wars or the part two was the last, it would be a fitting place to end.  

I believe they just came out and Said Stan had filmed Cameos for Captain Marvel and Avengers 4. Sad his last Cameo isn't in Spiderman: Far from Home. Spidey is one I definitely know he created 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Arrow has no idea what they’re doing with Curtis. Or Dinah. Or Rene, who no one missed in this episode. And the fact that they’re choosing to force Curtis and Dinah (and sometimes Rene) over an established character like Diggle, who has a ton of potential to be explored, is so freaking frustrating.

Took this quote from the Fangirlish review over in the New thread.  

Reading it made me realize how much more I would have enjoyed the Argus Undercover part if they'd ditched Curtis altogether or stuck HIM behind the scenes and let Dig be the one impersonating someone.  Even if they had Curtis feeding him info it could have been a fun scene.    

[Delphi]

Last season this thread would've been on page four by now.   That says a lot about how this season is being received.   Kinda sad. 

[Mellowyellow]

11 minutes ago, Delphi said:

Last season this thread would've been on page four by now.   That says a lot about how this season is being received.   Kinda sad. 

I went and did a quick squiz for you. It was the deathstroke filler eps. Not many posts either. 

But we did get Olicity. I think they're reducing our Olicity slowly. We went from small tiny scenes in s6 to nothing this season. Its always obvious cuz @Soulfire vanishes and she's vanished for ages now. 

They can put them in via hallucinations or dreams if they wanted because that's what other series do.

Butt gotta devote time to N00bs.

[way2interested]

14 minutes ago, Delphi said:

Last season this thread would've been on page four by now.   That says a lot about how this season is being received.   Kinda sad. 

There wasn't enough bad stuff in this episode it looks like XD

Or good stuff, to be fair. It was a par episode, really.

[BunsenBurner]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

 

Butt gotta devote time to N00bs.

I just thought this should be highlighted!

Edited November 15, 2018 by BunsenBurner

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, way2interested said:

There wasn't enough bad stuff in this episode it looks like XD

Or good stuff, to be fair. It was a par episode, really.

Yeah, there just wasn't anything great enough to spend a lot of time rhapsodizing about or much grist for the mill except for how annoying Curtis was and breaking that down only takes so long.  

Otherwise for a season without very many spoilers, it's all going along pretty much as expected.  There really are no mysteries currently on the table other than the Flashfo's and until we get more info on that, I'm not feeling terribly interested in tossing out more theories.  

But while i don't feel like there is a whole lot to say about this episode, after it was over, I've felt a kind of relief for the blandness of it.  I am enjoying the emotional break.  

[Lantern7]

On 11/13/2018 at 9:46 AM, tv echo said:

Clearly, this episode was super popular - judging by the ton of comments in this thread! Seriously, though, I just can't take the stupidity...

 

On 11/14/2018 at 6:33 PM, Delphi said:

Last season this thread would've been on page four by now.   That says a lot about how this season is being received.   Kinda sad. 

Here's why I saw the episode tonight. the CW affiliate here in New York ran the Giants/Niners Monday Night Football game. Yes, two teams with a combined record of 3-14, and that took priority. over Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow. The station could have aired the episodes in the wee morning hours and let people record it . . . but nope, push the episodes to Saturday. The rest of my  week were spent trying to burn DVR space. Also, watching Legends on Tuesday, because it's that awesome. Arrow wasn't a huge priority.

Why is Oliver approaching leaving the hoosegow? Elseworlds. Gotta bring all shows to the regular status quo before the crossover. On the other hand, watching Oliver deadend in his quest to kill Diaz can be tiring, and him going back to Level One kinda sucks. Well, at least he got to bond with Talia. You know, the less interesting al Guhl gal. Or at least the one I wanted to see less.

Maybe Curtis should transfer to the Waverider. It's painful to see him lose confidence again and again. Why can't be join Team Legends? Look at Ray Palmer . . . he was Felicity's creepy boyfriend four years ago. Now he's the lovable ray of optimism, and maybe Brandon Routh does deserve top billing over Caity Lotz.

Anybody else think the last episode of 2018 will have Felicity going past the point of no return. Watching EBR get crazed is fun, but it seems like she's heading down old school NBC TV Movie territory.

Diaz is choking out Anatoly. Greeeeeeeeeeat. If Felicity winds up firing bullet after bullet into his head, would it really be considered a mark against her? With our luck, he'd live.On the plus side, we'd probably be able to understand his mumblegrowl better.

[BkWurm1]

I wouldn't hold it against any of them if they killed Diaz

I'd probably hold it against a couple of them if they didn't'.