S07.E04: Level Two

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

I know this is all supposed to be mysterious right now, but none of it makes a lick of sense. I suspect the reason Will is so chill with everything is because he's not as estranged from his parents as he's leading Roy to believe. Knowing the way Oliver and Felicity feel about him, nothing that he's hinted about their relationship sounds plausible.

This is the frustrating thing about flashforwards. They're only revealing certain information bit by bit so that they can keep the mystery going but there's the concern that it won't really add up by the end of the season. 

Nothing would surprise me if Will was still in contact with Felicity and Oliver up until a few weeks or months ago and maybe he doesn't know things because he settled in another city. I also wouldn't be surprised if he's lying. I thought he seemed a bit shifty in the first couple of episodes tbh.

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

4) Why hasn't William heard that Felicity is dead? Not just because she's his stepmom but because she's CEO of a major company. That would be on the news.

It's the weirdest thing - last night when he and Roy were walking through Smoak Tech, he said, "It must've been something in its heyday," which implies he didn't know much about the company and hadn't ever been there. And makes it seem like Smoak Tech hadn't been a thing in a long while. The simplest explanation is that he's lying, and is in on Felicity's (/possibly Oliver's) con. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

It's the weirdest thing - last night when he and Roy were walking through Smoak Tech, he said, "It must've been something in its heyday," which implies he didn't know much about the company and hadn't ever been there. And makes it seem like Smoak Tech hadn't been a thing in a long while. The simplest explanation is that he's lying, and is in on Felicity's (/possibly Oliver's) con. 

Exactly. And I find it unrealistic that he wouldn't know about Smoak Tech when he was influenced by Felicity to go into tech himself. I feel like that influence hasn't really started in the present day yet and is still to come.

The real question is why is he lying. 

[way2interested]

He knew enough to know what was her office, though? Kind of inconsistent 

[DeadZeus]

I was hoping Oliver would just be playing along during his sessions… After everything he has been through i don't think Oliver deserves to be broken here… If he actually does get broken during this "therapy" i'd be very dissapointed. Mostly at the writers for writing him so weak. After everything hes been through it would be cool to see that in the end, Oliver was just playing along with the therapy to get more intel. And it would be cool to see he doesn't doubt himself and his mission anymore.

Same with Oliver's little prison friend. I mean… It's pretty Obvious he's an accomplice of Diaz or something. It would be so cool if Oliver knows this and is just playing along. But i'm sure that when it's revealed he'll be like :O:O and the audience is like -.-...

[Chaser]

I've only been able to read recaps and watched clips so I probably don't have a full picture of the episode. 

I can't get worked up about Felicity being declared dead. I figured they would set up some type of 'oh shit no' fake out moment in the Flash Forwards and I figured it would have something to do with a member OTA. The episode ended with Felicity using her smarts to set up a plan, my guess is the same thing is happening in the future.

It hurts my brain to think of the Flash Forwards. I feel like there are just going to be massive plot WTFs everywhere. 

Dinah is my least favorite everything. Nothing about her works. Just go away.

I don't know what to think about BS. I agree that the dynamic between her and Felicity works far better than anything we have seen previously with BS. I also think that this role is a much better fit for KC than Laurel or BC. But I feel like they are sugar coating BS. If I was just tuning in, I would think BS was a lost soul who fell in with Diaz and murdered a man. Not the character who gleefully murdered dozens of people, willingly threw in with Big Bads and had a hand in killing William's mother. It's like when they decided to redeem her, they gave her a personality transplant. 

[apinknightmare]

I find it kinda funny that there's all this future drama over a walled-up section of the city. I get why it'd generally be a bad thing, but what exactly happened here? Did Diaz Jr. 3D print some barriers to blockade himself into a little crime town? What do they have in there that would require a ~vigilante resistance to go after it? Did someone big bad build a weather machine? Another earthquake device on a grander scale that they're trying to get to in order to stop it? Are they just trying to get in and save some civilians that are stuck in there and might want out? 

I know it'll be dumb, but still...I wonder. 

[KenyaJ]

7 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I don't know what to think about BS. I agree that the dynamic between her and Felicity works far better than anything we have seen previously with BS. I also think that this role is a much better fit for KC than Laurel or BC. But I feel like they are sugar coating BS. If I was just tuning in, I would think BS was a lost soul who fell in with Diaz and murdered a man. Not the character who gleefully murdered dozens of people, willingly threw in with Big Bads and had a hand in killing William's mother. It's like when they decided to redeem her, they gave her a personality transplant. 

Yeah, and I'm not here for it. Feeling bad about Vince and helping the good guys does not a redemption make. Try me again after she's actually suffered some consequences for her actions and has to rebuild her life through means that don't rely on having the same face as E1 Laurel.

[insomniadreams88]

1 hour ago, KenyaJ said:

Speaking of strained relationships, I have a feeling that this too is going to get swept under the rug –– i.e., right before Oliver gets out of jail, Digg will come to his senses, actually help Felicity, and everyone will carry on as if everything is fine. But I really wish Oliver could find out about the lack of support Digg has given Felicity since she came back to Star City. Just like Felicity, I'm sure Oliver would understand why Diggle can't be much help in going after Diaz, but I think his heart would be broken by Digg's lack of emotional support for Felicity. And if he found out that Digg told Felicity to accept Oliver's imprisonment and move on with her life? Hooboy. My heart constricts just thinking about it. I really wish the show would dive into that instead of ignoring it, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to be disappointed in the end.

I fully expect when Oliver gets out of prison for everyone to act like they were doing everything they could to catch Diaz while he was locked up. I highly doubt they'll even address what Felicity went through, other than a few Oliver/Felicity conversations. 

Really, I bet everyone's just going to expect everything to be fine for Felicity once Oliver's out. What she went through when he was in prison? Doesn't matter. 

Really, the present is making me want Oliver and Felicity to be on permanent vacation somewhere in the future and William knows and this is all part of a long con to make everyone else step up in their absence (because they do still care abut Star City but have had enough of giving up their own lives for it). They knew Roy exiled himself to Lian Yu after losing Thea and figure this is the best way to get him out of his funk. 

[Chaser]

1 hour ago, KenyaJ said:

Yeah, and I'm not here for it. Feeling bad about Vince and helping the good guys does not a redemption make. Try me again after she's actually suffered some consequences for her actions and has to rebuild her life through means that don't rely on having the same face as E1 Laurel.

This is what I'm struggling with. Nothing thats happened with her has been enough for me to buy this change. Diaz was too lame, she should have viewed Quentin as straight psycho and she hasn't suffered any real consequences.

I don't know if they is going to make sense, but watching I felt like this is the Laurel we would have gotten if they had ditched BC and gone the villain route in S3. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Chaser

[UNOSEZ]

3 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I fully expect when Oliver gets out of prison for everyone to act like they were doing everything they could to catch Diaz while he was locked up. I highly doubt they'll even address what Felicity went through,

I haven't really seen evidence that they aren't trying tho.. So without evidence to the contrary I gotta assume that Dinah Curtis and Diggle are doing the most they can... Maybe first some the show needs to do more to prove that but I'm gonna take it at face value.. Its not like those three are all just chilling working cushy jobs having a ball while Diaz is roaming free.. Dinah is busy trying to rebuild the worst police department this side of gotham.. And Curtis and Diggle are both with Argus helping keep ppl safe ( which is also part of the mission)  and still spending resources  and time looking for Diaz.. She had a chance to work with them at Argus but she woulda had to spend precious time that could be used looking for Diaz on other things and right now that's not where her head is.. And I'm ok with that.. But that's also why she didn't reach out to anyone but BS to torture  silencer because while sometimes effective it goes against everything they all stand for.. And had the roles been reversed she woulda tried to stop Curtis or Dinah or diggle from doing it to.. Which is why I'm glad BS eventually got thru t her that it wasn't really the way... Especially for Felicity 

[jay741982]

4 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

Yeah, and I'm not here for it. Feeling bad about Vince and helping the good guys does not a redemption make. Try me again after she's actually suffered some consequences for her actions and has to rebuild her life through means that don't rely on having the same face as E1 Laurel.

And the only ones that suffer any Consequences is Olicity William and Quentin can't have Writers Favs the Newbs suffer 

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Do we know how much time has passed since 7x01? Has it only been a few days? A week? 

 

 

At the start of 7x02 they said Oliver had been in the box for two days I think (maybe it was three) after his beat down in the yard.  Then we saw Felicity in the Orange dress at night and then we saw her at Argus in another outfit and end the episode in the black and white camisole which she was also wearing when 7x03 started.  And it seems only a couple days went by during that episode as well since after they had Silencer in the basement, they didn't give her any water and death can occur in as little as a few days though I guess the norm is more like ten days BUT given the heat of the environment she was in, I'd go back to the 3-4 days max they could keep her alive while not giving her anything to drink so all of 7x04 also couldn't have been more than a few days.  So really everything has gone down in little over a week's time.  I'd put it at around 9 or 10 days since Oliver and Felicity saw each other.  

Edited November 6, 2018 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

Quote

E2 Laurel (to Felicity): “On my Earth, I loved my father and my Ollie, but they were taken away from me because they were murdered. It’s when you lose the people who matter most, once you get through the grief, you get angry. You want revenge, and I took it. But the darkness, it swallows you the more you feed it. And digging yourself back out to the light, it’s… it’s really hard. In fact, I wish someone would’ve warned me before I got blood all over my hands the first time. Maybe that way, I would’ve been more like your Laurel.”

 

This is a key difference with what is going on with Felicity.  She's not doing this for revenge.  She's doing this to stay alive and keep William alive.  She's lost her life but she's not just angry, she has a very practical purpose behind her actions.  

[olicityfan25]

Argus can't even keep Felicity safe and she had to take matters into her own hands. How are they going to keep others safe? LOL at thinking Curtis is even doing anything. 

[Featherhat]

16 hours ago, Angel12d said:

This is the frustrating thing about flashforwards. They're only revealing certain information bit by bit so that they can keep the mystery going but there's the concern that it won't really add up by the end of the season. 

Yeah they're concentrating so hard on revealing little bits and not others that what they actually do say isn't making sense. I doubt it will all add up by the end of the season. Even much better written shows than Arrow have trouble with things like this making sense. 

 

13 hours ago, Chaser said:

I don't know if they is going to make sense, but watching I felt like this is the Laurel we would have gotten if they had ditched BC and gone the villain route in S3. 

That could have been interesting, kinda swapping Laurel and Tommy's destinies over, though CD was good at playing 2 minutes of villainous Tommy last year. I don't think they're interested in much more than the "redemption" they've got going on now. Unlike for a character like Sara who still thinks she's a monster. 

 

16 hours ago, Chaser said:

I can't get worked up about Felicity being declared dead. I figured they would set up some type of 'oh shit no' fake out moment in the Flash Forwards and I figured it would have something to do with a member OTA. The episode ended with Felicity using her smarts to set up a plan, my guess is the same thing is happening in the future.

It's kinda funny that no one really thinks she's dead, whether they like the character or not. Yeah it was one of those things that was inevitable once they started with the FFs. Sigh, we're never getting rid of DD though. And it's not the LOT version of 2040s but it's not any better, which will make the next couple of seasons useless. Probably doubling down on how "badass" 3D is. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Featherhat

[bijoux]

Like them or not, it does seem like the flashforwards are generating reactions. So far, I’m fine with them. For one, I think William is full of shit. Not anything born of ill intent, but I think he’s lying through his teeth. There are inconsistencies to his story. First it’s implied he’s never been to Smoak Tech (must have been something in its day), then he obviously has been there (this was Felicity’s office). Then I was thinking about him saying he didn’t know how to use Oliver’s bow and now I’m suspicious of that as well. I don’t think he’s a GA in the future, much less that he’s travelled back to the present. But he and Oliver were playing around with toy bows last season and I could see Oliver starting to teach William when he’s out of jail to reconnect, spend some time together, beef up William’s college application... So it would be cool if we saw him make a perfect hit and he tries to play it off. Beginner’s luck? Maybe that’s when Roy starts to get suspicious.

Also, this all seems like someone (ahem, Felicity and Oliver) are assembling Team Next Generation. And they brought Roy there to be their direct commander. Clearly and reasonably passing over Dinah who’s still in SC. Until told otherwise, I’m convinced she set this shit show in the Glades in motion by being a sucky police captain and alienating the people who lives there, as was clearly shown in the present day.

All in all, I don’t think the future will turn out to be that hopeless. Yes, things are clearly bad, but there’s hope in the fact that William is getting involved and Zoe already is. I fully expect other offspring to turn up. And it’s a lot to pass that feeling of obligation to the community and striving to raise it up to your kids. 

On a superficial note, man LoT’s SC 2038 (?) was a lot harsher on people’s looks than this SC 2040. Both Roy and Dinah are looking great. That Oliver could have been their grandfather.

As for the present day, I honestly teared up during Oliver’s scene with William on the boat. Thisclose to blubbering. The thing about living his life was so brutal. I hoped that psychatrist suffered even before he started using torture. Die in a fire, there’s a handy crew of arsonists in SC right now.

Apart from that preachy speech from BC (miss me with that crap, you didn’t just get revenge, you became a mercenary) and the odd choice to put her hands on Felicity’s shoulders, their scenes worked well. Poor Felicity out there, losing allies left and right. Even Rene never got back in touch. 

[UNOSEZ]

54 minutes ago, bijoux said:

 Even Rene never got back in touch. 

You mean the Rene who's daughter was in the hospital after she was caught up in a fire??  And who then got arrested and then went and apprehended said fire starters.. He was kinda busy and wasn't totally available to torture silencer

[bijoux]

Rene didn’t have the best day, even if you do want to get technical, he did have a breather to call Felicity when Zoe was taken care of. But, my comment was more about the fact that Felicity is apparently expecting to be left behind at this point and just accepts it as a given and presses on to the next person.

[UNOSEZ]

15 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Rene didn’t have the best day, even if you do want to get technical, he did have a breather to call Felicity when Zoe was taken care of. But, my comment was more about the fact that Felicity is apparently expecting to be left behind at this point and just accepts it as a given and presses on to the next person.

It does kinda suck.. But I think she knows or at least feels that while her methods have reasoning... They are extreme and any friend would council against them... So to avoid disagreement that ultimately wouldn't change anyone's minds.. And would waste time so she's doing it on her own.. Kinda like when she was doing the hacking with those  cayden James ' ppl.  She knew how everyone else felt about it.. But she felt it was needed so she did it... 

[Aeryn13]

This Season is too relentlessly dark for me. The present is horrible for characters I care about - seriously, what Oliver is going through is more like a slow-going snuff-porn these days - and the future is worse with all their efforts in vain. Jeez. This ain`t Season 1-dark, this is nihilistic grim-dark. Not even Beebo could bring me comfort. And I side-eye you, show, for attaching my beloved Beebo to the likes of Curtis. This doesn`t change anything, Hoss. 

Speaking of, they are writing Rene much better now but I fell for that once. When the character was introduced, he was insufferable. Then they redeemed in the writing, working with Lance in the Mayor`s office. Last Season they made him doubly-triply insufferable and I was treated to five million of utterly self-righteous versions of his above catchphrase. So now they are trying to redeem-write him again. Fool me once, show.

Dinah continous to annoy the crap out of me so at least it`s consistent with last year.

Diggle still gets it left and right. That is less annoying than hurtful to watch.

I think the last episode of this show that made me really happy was when Oliver and Felicity were trapped in the bunker and you got flashbacks to bunker sex. And that was during the Prometheus era. There were glimpses here and there last Season before Diaz and his 3D-printer took center stage. I can`t believe they carried him over.       

[bijoux]

The movie theatre scene gave me an assuredly unintended chuckle. I get that the old kung fu movie must have been used for copyright reasons. But to stage as it as an almost full house with everyone engrossed was hilarious. There should have been like 10, 20 people tops there. Two movie geeks, a group of stoned kids, someone making out, a few shady characters doing a drug drop off. Done. Why are they wasting extras on a scene that doesn't need so many? That fact that this is apparently the height of entertainment in Star City might be the saddest thing I've learned of the shithole so far.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

It does kinda suck.. But I think she knows or at least feels that while her methods have reasoning... They are extreme and any friend would council against them... So to avoid disagreement that ultimately wouldn't change anyone's minds.. And would waste time so she's doing it on her own.. Kinda like when she was doing the hacking with hose  cayden James ' ppl.  She knew how everyone else felt about it.. But she felt it was needed so she did it... 

5

She begged her teammates to work with her before she went off on her own.  She was hurt deeply that Oliver didn't back her up.  She didn't just shrug and move on.  She was again deeply hurt with Diggle and Argus not backing her up, but she made her peace with it, probably for the sake of their friendship and love.   

She tried to convince Rene to her way of thinking but when he wanted to put it on pause, he never came back.  If he was so worried about torture, maybe he should have checked back to make sure his prisoner was still alive?  Felicity though didn't even blink that he bailed.  She went shopping for someone with a better skill set to the job.  She didn't have to beg her since their interests aligned. And honestly, I think that's what Felicity now expects of her former teammates, not to expect help unless it's in their interests like with Rene wanting to get back into the vigilante life.  And really don't expect the level of help she needs if it puts any of their interests possibly at risk.  

Spoiler

In the next promo she's not even begging for them to help her anymore, but making a pitch again to help Oliver.

  This girl should have at least one ride or die among the bunch.  

[Cekrypton1]

I'm sorry, but last season Dinah quit one vigilante team and started another because the first was not on-board with her plan to commit extra-judicial murder against her boyfriend's killer, but now she is all law-and-order and unable AND unwilling to see the benefit of New Green Arrow? Mmm-hmm.

Question: When was Rene tortured by Tobias Whale and was it the same Tobias Whale from Black Lightning? Because that I don't remember at all.

[jay741982]

2 minutes ago, Cekrypton1 said:

I'm sorry, but last season Dinah quit one vigilante team and started another because the first was not on-board with her plan to commit extra-judicial murder against her boyfriend's killer, but now she is all law-and-order and unable AND unwilling to see the benefit of New Green Arrow? Mmm-hmm.

Question: When was Rene tortured by Tobias Whale and was it the same Tobias Whale from Black Lightning? Because that I don't remember at all.

Rene was tortured by Tobias CHURCH 

[KenyaJ]

5 hours ago, bijoux said:

Why are they wasting extras on a scene that doesn't need so many? 

Between this and the 8 million regular and recurring characters on the show right now, I assume someone at WB/DCTV is printing money and budget is no longer a concern.

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

This girl should have at least one ride or die among the bunch.  

Now would have been a perfect time to bring back Alena. 

[insomniadreams88]

8 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Now would have been a perfect time to bring back Alena. 

Or Rory. (I'm never going to let that go.)

[UNOSEZ]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

She begged her teammates to work with her before she went off on her own.  She was hurt deeply that Oliver didn't back her up.  She didn't just shrug and move on

Shrug or not she decided to do what she wanted to anyway and I don't really have a problem with it as long as no one else innocent gets hurt... When her or Diggle would disagree with Oliver.. They'd usually eventually come around grudgingly.. But that's on them... Oliver diggle Curtis all told her working with the hackers was a bad idea... Being a good friend sometimes means saying no.. Or saying wait before you do more damage.. She didn't wait.. And they released cayden James... But I think my problem is with the need for characters to  be ride or die... Sometimes ur not being a friend by helping or indulging them.. Especially if they are on a possibly dangerous and destructive path.. And Rene had other issues to deal with after he left felicity anf even if he didn't.. As soon as he said wait she was ready to move on to someone who would do what she wanted... Right now she's not looking for advice or council.. Just a yes person to assist her on her Diaz hunt.. And looks like she got one in Bs.. Which I'm cool with

[apinknightmare]

10 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Right now she's not looking for advice or council.. Just a yes person to assist her on her Diaz hunt.. And looks like she got one in Bs.. Which I'm cool with

Right now she's looking for someone to give a shit that her husband went to jail to capture a criminal who attacked her, her kid, and is ultimately trying to kill them all. They all seem super concerned about honoring the deal for their own immunity, but don't seem to care very much about getting the guy Oliver got them immunity to capture in the first place.

[insomniadreams88]

26 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I think my problem is with the need for characters to  be ride or die

Right now, I'm not even asking for someone to be ride or die, I'm just asking for someone to care about Felicity and maybe, you know, ask how she's doing?

I don't even need Diggle to actively hunt down Diaz through ARGUS. It would be nice if he did, considering what Diaz did to Oliver, Felicity and William. But how about just checking in on Felicity as a friend? Even just a phone call? Even if she ignored his call because she was busy with the Silencer. But no, we haven't gotten that. We haven't gotten anyone checking on how Felicity's doing after everything. Watson treated her better than her supposed friends in 703. 

But Diggle had time to check on Dinah and stop by the hospital to see Zoe/be there for Rene. I'm not saying he shouldn't have (although I've had enough Diggle/Dinah scenes for the entire series, probably). Honestly, I expect so little from the Felicity/Diggle friendship right now and I hate that. 

They could have still gotten Felicity turning to BS to deal with the Silencer without making it seem like no one else cares about the fact that Diaz is still out there and recruited three other villains and has no problem breaking into places like the CDC. 

[UNOSEZ]

20 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Right now she's looking for someone to give a shit that her husband went to jail to capture a criminal who attacked her, her kid, and is ultimately trying to kill them all. They all seem super concerned about honoring the deal for their own immunity, but don't seem to care very much about getting the guy Oliver got them immunity to capture in the first place.

Again.. Until the show portrays them actively not trying to help.. Like going out of their way to not keep looking then I gotta assume that when they can.. They are doing what they can to get Diaz.. Unless you think they should all quit what jobs they have now and just go 24/7 Diaz mode... But that's not happening.  Maybe I'm missing something.. I could see if Dinah didn't have a job and was lazing around and when Felicity comes she brushes her off.. Ud have a problem with that as well.. But she's got her hands full.. As does diggle.  The show made a point to say that he's using resources he shouldn't in the hunt for Diaz.. So unless something changed and I missed it ima guess they are still looking.. But him and Curtis got other things going as well.. Priorities may have shifted a bit.. But its not like if they got word Diaz was gonna be somewhere.. But they also have a movie to go to they'd go to the movies.. I just don't like the assertion that They.. But especially diggle doesn't care... Which when felicity blew up earlier in the season was really the only thing I didn't like from her

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I don't even need Diggle to actively hunt down Diaz through ARGUS. It would be nice if he did, considering what Diaz did to Oliver, Felicity and William.

Ooooh, I do. Because Oliver helped Lyla break Diggle out of jail when she asked (I am not asking Diggle to break him out, I'm just asking Diggle to make finding Diaz a priority), and because there's a guy out there trying to kill his friend's defenseless family (a family which includes another friend of his!), and they're defenseless because he went to jail to get Diggle and everyone else immunity for things they willingly did. Even if he's not doing this with Felicity - he should still be doing it. 

[UNOSEZ]

9 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Honestly, I expect so little from the Felicity/Diggle friendship right now and I hate that. 

There we can agree.. But they've been written weird for a while.. Why the writers haven't had them talk or at least talk to someone else about not talking is maddening.. I thought maybe that's where he was headed when he was talking to Dinah.. I mean he's def having probs being as restricted with argus as he is.. But he's also trying a new way for his family and to honor the deal that Oliver made.. But yeah a quick aside from diggle checking in in her would do wonders for the fandom who are currently upset.. Maybe they are giving each other space after the mini blowup.. I mean sure they said its all good... But they both said some unfortunate things that upon reflection they didn't  mean and arent sure how to break the ice.. Maybe next week they can talk again and get back on some kinda track.. Its about time to start getting everyone going in some kinda same direction... At least I hope it is

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Again.. Until the show portrays them actively not trying to help.. Like going out of their way to not keep looking then I gotta assume that when they can.. They are doing what they can to get Diaz.. Unless you think they should all quit what jobs they have now and just go 24/7 Diaz mode... But that's not happening.  Maybe I'm missing something.. I could see if Dinah didn't have a job and was lazing around and when Felicity comes she brushes her off.. Ud have a problem with that as well.. But she's got her hands full.. As does diggle.  The show made a point to say that he's using resources he shouldn't in the hunt for Diaz.. So unless something changed and I missed it ima guess they are still looking.. But him and Curtis got other things going as well.. Priorities may have shifted a bit.. But its not like if they got word Diaz was gonna be somewhere.. But they also have a movie to go to they'd go to the movies.. I just don't like the assertion that They.. But especially diggle doesn't care... Which when felicity blew up earlier in the season was really the only thing I didn't like from her

I'm glad you don't need to see them actively trying to help - I do. I need to see that these people are thinking about and caring about the guy who went to jail to protect them - and that they're thinking about and caring about his family - and their friend, who is defenseless if this guy tried to attack her, UNLIKE ANY OF THEM! They don't have to quit their day jobs to do this - the show could carve out a moment or two of them working on finding Diaz, or just have them talking to each other about it before they get pulled away to get back to their day to day work. Diggle-so far-has not shown that he cares. He tried to help Felicity on his own terms while putting his job first, and then gave her a lecture about Oliver not coming home anytime soon. That's the last we've heard from him where she's concerned. Curtis? Nothing. Dinah? Nothing. Rene is at least doing a little bit, even if it's just scratching his itch to get back into vigilantism. 

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Ooooh, I do. Because Oliver helped Lyla break Diggle out of jail when she asked (I am not asking Diggle to break him out, I'm just asking Diggle to make finding Diaz a priority), and because there's a guy out there trying to kill his friend's defenseless family (a family which includes another friend of his!), and they're defenseless because he went to jail to get Diggle and everyone else immunity for things they willingly did. Even if he's not doing this with Felicity - he should still be doing it. 

Oh, ideally, Diggle would be hunting down Diaz, even if it's just on his free time since ARGUS doesn't seem to care about Diaz (and while to the audience, he's not the Big Bad he's supposed to be, in-story he apparently is) and I don't see Diggle leaving ARGUS right now. But I've (angrily) accepted that he's not. 

1 minute ago, UNOSEZ said:

There we can agree.. But they've been written weird for a while.. Why the writers haven't had them talk or at least talk to someone else about not talking is maddening.. I thought maybe that's where he was headed when he was talking to Dinah.. I mean he's def having probs being as restricted with argus as he is.. But he's also trying a new way for his family and to honor the deal that Oliver made.. But yeah a quick aside from diggle checking in in her would do wonders for the fandom who are currently upset.. Maybe they are giving each other space after the mini blowup.. 

They haven't spoken in years. It's not just this season. In season 5, after Felicity's boyfriend was killed, Diggle didn't once check in with her, after not even thanking her for getting him out of prison, but he talked to Dinah about getting an apartment and job ... after knowing her for what, a week? Last season, Felicity found out about Diggle's injury from the others and had a brief conversation on the phone with him about it. That was it. 

Felicity could have been killed in 701 if not for ARGUS arriving when they did (yet letting Diaz get away), and none of her "friends" seem to be acknowledging that. 

[UNOSEZ]

Well the show could've shown them talking about Diaz if we didn't have so much jail time stuff.. But I feel like based on how upset the posts seem anytime NTA is on screen and Ollie isn't that I'd read posts about why don't we know what's going on with Ollie.. Or.. "Shutup Curtis "..  So maybe they figured folks were like me and assumed that they are doing Diaz related things and don't need to spend time bringing it up until they can show something... That's my best guess.. Maybe they miscalculated wouldn't be the first time for these writers and executives

[apinknightmare]

The writers shouldn't be thinking about the audience's reaction to the amount of times they're spending on things if they think it's important to the story. They should tell the story they want to tell - and if that story is about a bunch of people who don't really care that much about Oliver and his family (and Diaz, really), they're doing a spectacular job. 

[statsgirl]

5 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Again.. Until the show portrays them actively not trying to help.. Like going out of their way to not keep looking then I gotta assume that when they can.. They are doing what they can to get Diaz..

In the last episode, Diggle told Felicity to go home and move on because he has. Go home, forget about the situation and move on? He seemed to be blind to the fact that Diaz, who is still at large, had just attempted to murder her and possible William too. How does Diggle think she can go home at all?

ARGUS may not have issued orders to stop looking for Diaz but like with the FBI, Diaz has become very low priority for them.  Inexplicably because if Diaz is as dangerous as the show is trying to make out, he should be a top priority.  Ad it seems like Dinah is more interested in finding the new vigilante than in finding Diaz.

It seems like whenever Diggle and Oliver are at odds, from season 1 on, Felicity tries to mends things. But when Felicity needs help, such as when Billy died or now when she is fearing for her life and William's, Diggle has time for everyone else but not for her.

[kes0704]

Diggle, Dinah ,Rene and Curtis spent five months kicking back, moving on and apparently doing absolutely nothing to hunt Diaz while Felicity was out of sight, out of mind. She had to abandon her entire life and live in hiding with William while they got new jobs and promotions and the chance to live consequence free because of the Oliver’s immunity deal

Oliver did everything he could to help Diggle when he was in jail and struggling with killing his brother, he helped Rene get his daughter back, he helped Dinah find a new way to channel her grief and in return he gets nothing and Felicity gets a lecture to accept that Oliver’s not coming back and to move on, conveniently forgetting that she actually can’t do that because Diaz is still roaming around free.

Other than Rene, none of the people who are supposed to be Oliver and Felicity’s friends  (overlooking the ridiculous civil war that they apparently want us to forget about) seem to be all that interested in helping her or overly concerned about Oliver.  

[olicityfan25]

15 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

It does kinda suck.. But I think she knows or at least feels that while her methods have reasoning... They are extreme and any friend would council against them... So to avoid disagreement that ultimately wouldn't change anyone's minds.. And would waste time so she's doing it on her own.. Kinda like when she was doing the hacking with those  cayden James ' ppl.  She knew how everyone else felt about it.. But she felt it was needed so she did it... 

Diaz is extreme. Felicity has to either do it that way but smarter. Which obviously she is cause duh. LOL

[olicityfan25]

8 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Again.. Until the show portrays them actively not trying to help.. Like going out of their way to not keep looking then I gotta assume that when they can.. They are doing what they can to get Diaz.. Unless you think they should all quit what jobs they have now and just go 24/7 Diaz mode... But that's not happening.  Maybe I'm missing something.. I could see if Dinah didn't have a job and was lazing around and when Felicity comes she brushes her off.. Ud have a problem with that as well.. But she's got her hands full.. As does diggle.  The show made a point to say that he's using resources he shouldn't in the hunt for Diaz.. So unless something changed and I missed it ima guess they are still looking.. But him and Curtis got other things going as well.. Priorities may have shifted a bit.. But its not like if they got word Diaz was gonna be somewhere.. But they also have a movie to go to they'd go to the movies.. I just don't like the assertion that They.. But especially diggle doesn't care... Which when felicity blew up earlier in the season was really the only thing I didn't like from her

Diggle has enough time to give Dinah a pep talk and information and yet he tells Felicity a friend of his way longer than Dinah to basically forget about Oliver. Yeah no. 

Also why is it that scenes with Rene, Dinah and sometimes Diggle when he's involved with those two go on forever? Not only that but for the life of me I don't understand why they keep giving Dinah and Rene the same dialogue just worded differently every time. Unnecessary screentime for that.

8 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Ooooh, I do. Because Oliver helped Lyla break Diggle out of jail when she asked (I am not asking Diggle to break him out, I'm just asking Diggle to make finding Diaz a priority), and because there's a guy out there trying to kill his friend's defenseless family (a family which includes another friend of his!), and they're defenseless because he went to jail to get Diggle and everyone else immunity for things they willingly did. Even if he's not doing this with Felicity - he should still be doing it. 

Not only that Felicity helped Lyla when she was in jail also in Russia. Diggle is actually being really a bad friend to her IMO. I never thought I would write that about Diggle. It's really pissing me off.

[jay741982]

2 hours ago, olicityfan25 said:

Diggle has enough time to give Dinah a pep talk and information and yet he tells Felicity a friend of his way longer than Dinah to basically forget about Oliver. Yeah no. 

Also why is it that scenes with Rene, Dinah and sometimes Diggle when he's involved with those two go on forever? Not only that but for the life of me I don't understand why they keep giving Dinah and Rene the same dialogue just worded differently every time. Unnecessary screentime for that.

Not only that Felicity helped Lyla when she was in jail also in Russia. Diggle is actually being really a bad friend to her IMO. I never thought I would write that about Diggle. It's really pissing me off.

And that's all on the writers who refuse to stop shoving newbs down our throat and write Dig and Felicity apart to force friendships with people they shouldn't be friends. Its maddening. They think we will like Rene and Dinah cause Felicity and Diggle do meanwhile we see what they are doing and it's stupid 

[BunsenBurner]

13 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Ooooh, I do. Because Oliver helped Lyla break Diggle out of jail when she asked (I am not asking Diggle to break him out, I'm just asking Diggle to make finding Diaz a priority), and because there's a guy out there trying to kill his friend's defenseless family (a family which includes another friend of his!), and they're defenseless because he went to jail to get Diggle and everyone else immunity for things they willingly did. Even if he's not doing this with Felicity - he should still be doing it. 

Sorry, I have to jump in here. Don’t forget Oliver also went to Russia and broke Lyla out of prison. He has saved both of them. 

[apinknightmare]

15 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

Sorry, I have to jump in here. Don’t forget Oliver also went to Russia and broke Lyla out of prison. He has saved both of them. 

True! I honestly forgot about Russia because I was focusing on the more recent things that should be still relatively fresh in Diggle’s mind. 

[tv echo]

To emphasize this point, if it weren't for Oliver & Felicity, Diggle wouldn't even have his family. Lyla would have died in Russia (most likely), and there would be no Baby Sara son JJ.

Edited November 9, 2018 by tv echo

[tennisgurl]

12 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

Sorry, I have to jump in here. Don’t forget Oliver also went to Russia and broke Lyla out of prison. He has saved both of them. 

Oh yeah, they all forgot that little detail! I hate that the Newbies, who basically caused half of these problems in the first place by being The Worst, but I hate even more the fact that John has apparently given up on his best friend. Yeah he apparently visits from time to time, but he seems to have pretty much cheerfully moved on to ARGUS, in a way that Oliver never did when John was stupidly messing around in prison. It makes it seem like this friendship was always uneven, like Oliver was always more invested in their friendship than John was. I know thats not true, but its sure what it looks like!

[GustavMahler]

Just as a general comment, I am enjoying this season quite a bit because I have learned to fast forward through all of the monotonous, repetitive, and hackneyed conversations and only stop a what looks like key moments. I now knock out an episode in 15 to 20 minutes and I must say, the abridged version is quite decent.

[Velocity23]

On 8. 11. 2018 at 12:51 AM, apinknightmare said:

Ooooh, I do. Because Oliver helped Lyla break Diggle out of jail when she asked (I am not asking Diggle to break him out, I'm just asking Diggle to make finding Diaz a priority), and because there's a guy out there trying to kill his friend's defenseless family (a family which includes another friend of his!), and they're defenseless because he went to jail to get Diggle and everyone else immunity for things they willingly did. Even if he's not doing this with Felicity - he should still be doing it. 

Also never forget how Felicity basically took steps to join Helix in order to help John. But all we got was Diggle thanking Chase.

[immortalfrieza]

On 11/5/2018 at 11:29 PM, quarks said:

Number of times Dinah blamed the wrong people, one: Trying to claim that the city lost its faith in law enforcement because of Diaz. OR, Dinah, and I'm just spitballing here, the city lost its faith because it gets attacked nearly every single May, its mayors and district attorneys keep getting assassinated and killed, it takes two hours to respond to 911 calls, and you didn't even bring any donuts to the community meeting. It's not just Diaz, is what I'm saying, and given that you needed the help of a vigilante to take down this week's arsonist, have yet to find Diaz, and remain completely unaware that the current DA has merrily agreed to assist with kidnapping/threatening/tracking a potential suspect, I think the city's lack of faith in you is entirely understandable.

Exactly. The people of Star City don't trust the police because the SCPD have been UTTERLY FUCKING USELESS the entire run of the show except, incidentally, when they're trying to bring down the protagonists. The same goes for Argus really, but at least their better at making themselves look like they might be able to do something. Judging by Dinah's and new Mayor's actions this season they seem to be making absolutely no efforts to change this, only getting in the way of the ones who are actually doing good for the city.  Part of that is the anthropic principle, if we did have competent law enforcement and military on this show and ones like it there wouldn't be any need for the protagonists at all and thus the show would be over.

 

However, the law enforcement and military need to be able to at least contribute, the SCPD and Argus aren't even able to do that much. It's telling that most of the threats on Arrow are just bog standard humans or really just barely above that while on Flash the threats are superbeings most of which capable of effortlessly shrugging off everything cops and even the Army could throw at them. Yet the CCPD are comparatively much more effective than the SCPD could ever be, with Barry and Co even actively trying to bolster the CCPD against the threats they have to face. Oliver was Mayor for 2 seasons and he pretty much did nothing to make the SCPD any more competent than they ever were Read: not at all.

 

On 11/6/2018 at 6:32 AM, Trisha said:

The showrunner has said that the potential future shown on Legends has no bearing on the flashforwards on Arrow. Which is weird because they are obviously doing parallels (that version of Oliver faked his death like Future Felicity likely is, the next generation took up the vigilante mantel, etc).

Whatever they end up being, the flashforwards are interesting but they need to show us something hopeful from them ASAP. Otherwise it’s just too depressing. Especially since Beth Schwartz says this is a “fixed” future so we can’t count on Flash or Legends-style time bending shenanigans. It would be one thing to think that Oliver never gets out of jail/returns as the Arrow and that’s why the city goes to hell in 20 years but we know that’s not true. So whenever he puts the suit back on this season, it’s all going to feel pointless.

Both DC and Marvel comics have had the exact same problem. Every time a future is shown it's a horrible one that invalidates all the efforts of the protagonists and someone from that future ends up coming back or sending a message back to the past to fix. Everything seems hunky dory, until the next comic with the exact same storyline that shows that the resulting future from that change is just as bad if not worse. Yet again whatever it is the protagonists have been doing and will do still makes no difference and may in fact just make things worse for their intervention... if they haven't turned into some mass murdering lunatic dictator or something. If this and the Legends glimpses into the future are any indication the Arrowverse is going down the exact same path. This is the Anthropic Principle again, but there comes a point where that ceases to be a justification and just becomes an excuse, and the Arrowverse has past that.

 

I'd like to at least once see that the efforts of the heroes lead to a utopian future... and there's some nutjob from the future who goes into the past to ensure that it changes to a dystopian one. With at least one of those plotlines it would seem like a good future would be a POSSIBILITY, thus make it feel like there's some point to what the protagonists are doing.

[Mary0360]

3 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

 

 

I'd like to at least once see that the efforts of the heroes lead to a utopian future... and there's some nutjob from the future who goes into the past to ensure that it changes to a dystopian one. With at least one of those plotlines it would seem like a good future would be a POSSIBILITY, thus make it feel like there's some point to what the protagonists are doing.

This reminds of a plot of an old Sylvestor Stallone and Sandra Bullock movie Demolition Man.