S07.E04: Level Two

[BkWurm1]

21 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I think this ep was run of the mill Arrow dark, but I wasn't expecting such a shitshow in the future. Now every time the team has a victory I'll be thinking...good work, but it's for nothing! Get out while you can!

 

This.  

There are ways they can get around it.  Like make it turn out to be way less awful than we have been led to believe but right now it feels like all I can hope for is Barry resetting the timeline again and if I have to depend on Barry Allen....

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

On another note, NGA is very flamboyant! Makes me giggle! 

I legit love the New GA. All of the flips and the Spider-Man climb up the wall, and the fact that the NGA is shorter and smaller than Dinah but Dinah and Rene still keep insisting on "he." So great, I laughed so much

[Primal Slayer]

We have a whole slew of deadly criminals at one of the highest prison facilities just gallivanting around the prison freely instead of locked up for 23hrs a day. I dont think they care much for real life rules.

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Yes. He's probably the guy Oliver is trying to get to.

Oh, he's definitely the Demon. I'm convinced he's working with Diaz to create a brainwashed army of ex-cons for Diaz's stupid nefarious purposes, which is a theory based on nothing.

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Like make it turn out to be way less awful than we have been led to believe

I think that's what they'll do, since they already backtracked on how long it's been since William's seen Felicity from the super vague "left him" of 702.

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

I think that's what they'll do, since they already backtracked on how long it's been since William's seen Felicity from the super vague "left him" of 702.

Wait, they did? When?

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

Wait, they did? When?

I just mean backtracked in that 702 very much wanted the audience to believe that Olicity haven't seen him since 701 when Felicity sent him to boarding school, while this episode just implied that he hasn't seen Felicity in probably a few years at most, enough to know what Smoak Tech is.

Edited November 6, 2018 by way2interested

[apinknightmare]

Just now, way2interested said:

I just mean backtracked in that 702 very much wanted the audience to believe that Olicity haven't seen him since 701 when Felicity sent him to boarding school, while this episode just implied that he hasn't seen Felicity in probably a few years at most.

Oh, I didn't get that impression. Did he mention something? I figured most of what he talked about wrt her was stuff he'd learned about during the time they'd already spent together in the present. But I wasn't fully paying attention due to what a bummer the future is. 

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

Oh, I didn't get that impression. Did he mention something? I figured most of what he talked about wrt her was stuff he'd learned about during the time they'd already spent together in the present. But I wasn't fully paying attention due to what a bummer the future is. 

He knew that that was her office and recognized her codes and style of coding, which I assumed would be way beyond his 13 year old self. They also implied that something happened regarding William in Star City sometime in the past that made him want to leave it in the first place and not plan on going back.

[UNOSEZ]

I musta got lost somewhere cuz I thought the flash forwards were on BS' earth

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

He knew that that was her office and recognized her codes and style of coding, which I assumed would be way beyond his 13 year old self. They also implied that something happened regarding William in Star City sometime in the past that made him want to leave it in the first place and not plan on going back.

Oh, okay. I caught all of this I just thought most of it was mentioned in a way that made it impossible to determine when it happened. And I thought William not wanting to go back to Star City could also be interpreted as him just not wanting to return after what had happened with Diaz/going into witness protection. 

I don't think Oliver and Felicity actually abandoned him, and I do think he's probably had relatively recent contact with them, I was just wondering if they'd setup a more concrete timeline and it doesn't seem that way so far. 

[JamieLynn832002]

7 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I musta got lost somewhere cuz I thought the flash forwards were on BS' earth

At this point, I'm kind of hoping they are but so far they've been presented as being on Earth 1 (or at least not outawrdly presented as being on another Earth)

[BkWurm1]

24 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I musta got lost somewhere cuz I thought the flash forwards were on BS' earth

Oliver was dead on Earth 2.  Robert Queen survived instead.  

[way2interested]

17 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

don't think Oliver and Felicity actually abandoned him, and I do think he's probably had relatively recent contact with them, I was just wondering if they'd setup a more concrete timeline and it doesn't seem that way so far

I just think for the approximately 7 minutes they've set for this story so far it's more concrete than it was back when it was 5 minutes. Like, yeah, still hard to pin down exactly when, but still easy to say that William has seen Felicity in her Smoak Tech office after 701 unlike the vagueness from 702, and then every 2 to 4 minutes we'll get after this will continue to fill in the gaps until things become less annoyingly vague

[Primal Slayer]

I like how advanced majority of E2 is. Barry/Iris were already married by the time we met them in S2 of The Flash, Felicity has had her own company since at least S4 of Arrow. 

[BadArcher]

Quote

The new Green Arrow is totally a female.

There is no doubt in my mind about that. 

 

Spoiler

Put this in spoiler in case I guessed correctly, may it is Felicity from earth 2

 

Maybe this is the crossover this season, fixing the Star city timeline. 

[apinknightmare]

50 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

This.  

There are ways they can get around it.  Like make it turn out to be way less awful than we have been led to believe

It turns out they're just all hanging out on the absolute worst block in the city and everyone's radiated out to the suburbs.

[Angel12d]

I gotta say, what the hell has happened to Diggle? I really didn't like that boring Diggle/Dinah scene, especially because he actually went to see if she was okay but like 2 episodes ago he told Felicity to get over her trauma and wouldn't help her. WTF. Not impressed!

[insomniadreams88]

5 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I gotta say, what the hell has happened to Diggle? I really didn't like that boring Diggle/Dinah scene, especially because he actually went to see if she was okay but like 2 episodes ago he told Felicity to get over her trauma and wouldn't help her. WTF. Not impressed!

Same. But to be honest, I’d rather not have any more Felicity/Diggle scenes right now if it’s going to be more of Diggle telling her to move on. 

[Angel12d]

16 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Same. But to be honest, I’d rather not have any more Felicity/Diggle scenes right now if it’s going to be more of Diggle telling her to move on. 

True. I'm just disappointed by the very obvious separation of Delicity to prop the others.

[quarks]

And once again, here I arrive to have a completely different opinion of this episode!  And also once again, we see that for Laurel or Not-Laurel to have a good, perhaps even great episode, someone else on Team Arrow must totally suck.

Sorry, Dinah!

Good things:

1. BEEBO! Spreading comfort and joy even to shows with almost no comfort and joy.

2. The parallel of Oliver succumbing to the drugs while Felicity was succumbing to the desire to torture someone? Nicely done. Arrow has had an annoying tendency in recent episodes to try to run two plot lines that aren't parallel, to the detriment of the show. Plus, this was back to what Arrow tends to do best: exploring the nature of violence and its effects on people.

3. No Diaz, unless he snuck in during the Dinah/Rene scenes where it is more than barely possible that I drifted off. In any case, not enough Diaz to actively irritate me this episode, which, yay.

4. Smoak Tech! A kinda smushed Smoak Tech, but I'll take it. 

5. In an episode discussing the merits of vigilantism versus law enforcement, Arrow remembered that hey, it's a vigilante show that likes vigilantes, and showed us Star City completely collapsing in the future once Oliver Queen was removed from it and taken to prison. I laughed. And yes, this is probably something we shouldn't look at too deeply but I still laughed. 

6. And better late than never, but nice to see the nod to consistency between Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow.  It looks as if Arrow is tackling the ARGUS goes really evil plotline that Legends of Tomorrow showed us last season, and I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out - especially with Diggle involved in ARGUS, and especially with Zari over on Legends of Tomorrow both saying that she can't change her own timeline while obviously desperately wanting to. This could be be awesome.

Or, being Arrow and the Arrowverse, it could completely suck, but let's be optimistic here.

7 Also liked that after six years of this, the citizens of Star City have finally realized that just maybe their law enforcement personnel are Not The Best.

8. And speaking of regaining some consistency, after seemingly forgetting this for several seasons, Arrow has finally remembered that yes, Star City has quite a lot of unequal wealth distribution.

9. This Felicity/Not-Laurel team-up was not just surprisingly fun, but the hands down best acting we've seen from KC for years. I don't want to get overly hopeful here, because wow, has Arrow disappointed me before with this character, but two episodes of a decent Not-Laurel? I'll take it.

10. Indeed, where in the name of the last six seasons has THIS Katie Cassidy been?  

Questionable things

1. Oliver, I appreciate that you're in a bad mood, and that, like me, you suspect that this psychiatrist is not exactly on the level and indeed is probably a Very Evil Man, but refusing to work with the psychiatrist is not going to help you or help the audience avoid these scenes.

2. Psychiatrist dude, the script can't remember how many people Oliver has killed. How do you expect Oliver to remember?

3. Roy, I know you've been gone for a bit, but still, you've been on this show for long enough to know that people on Arrow really never go anywhere except into warehouses, and the same sets over and over.  So why are you surprised to be right back at that same overpass that Team Flash and Team Arrow seem to regard as a secondary Team Hideout?

4. Various Star City people: The New Green Arrow is BETTER THAN YOU.

Dinah: NUH HUH!

BUILDING BURSTS ON FIRE. DINAH TELLS PEOPLE TO RUN AND LOOKS FOR A FIRE ALARM. New Green Arrow rescues small girl.

Various Star City people: As we were saying…

Me: Be right back. Need to get something for this headache from this anvil that just fell on my head. 

6. "The Mayor doesn't care about the new Green Arrow!" Very glad to see that Star City's new mayor plans to keep up with the city traditions of not really caring about the city unless he's named Oliver Queen. Hold on to this policy, new Mayor. It won't keep you alive but it's a good policy.

7. This psychiatrist really needed to pay more attention to this show, didn't he?

8. "People without the last name of "Queen" are important too." Again, psychiatrist, you really need to watch this show more, because the last few seasons have really not agreed with you on this point, unless these people have the last name of "Allen."

9. "You are actually practicing law." "Why does everyone find that so hard to believe?" It's not personal, Not-Laurel, I'm genuinely shocked that anybody in the Star City district attorney's office bothers to practice law at this point instead of focusing on self defense and/or just running away and never coming back, and I assume that Felicity and Dinah feel the same way.

10. "This Green Arrow isn't Oliver." Well, we know that, but you guys know TIME TRAVELLERS and METAHUMANS so you don't. 

(This was particularly unconvincing when less than one hour later, Legends of Tomorrow showed how easy it would be for someone to look like Oliver and for Oliver to look like someone else, and that's without even pulling Supergirl into the mix. Geesh, shows. I get that it's really hard to integrate the "realism" of Arrow into shows featuring aliens, metahumans and evil fairy godmothers, but...give me a throwaway line or something here.)

11. "I think maybe we should have stayed on Lian Yu." Roy, things are NEVER that desperate. Ever.

Also, hee. I've missed you, Roy.

12. I know we keep asking this question, and I know we will never get an answer, but if it's now taking law enforcement two hours to respond to 911 calls, why are people still living in Star City?

13. This fascinates me: when Flash leaves Central City, things are usually more or less ok - with some characters even arguing that the particle accelerator/very presence of Flash makes things worse. When Supergirl leaves National City, things are usually more or less ok - with several characters now very loudly and violently arguing that the very presence of aliens and Supergirl makes things worse.

When Oliver Green Arrow leaves Star City, the city completely collapses.

I'm not sure how intentional this is, but the contrast is really striking: the metahumans/aliens may be making things worse. The non-superpowered humans? Remove them and/or remove their ability to fight - and the system collapses. 

14. But on that note, and not to overly compare the shows too much, it's....somewhat bothersome that Barry and Kara, superpowered people with the ability to reverse time, change people's lives, and/or snatch people up and leave them in strange locations, end up getting celebrated, while Oliver....ends up in jail and tortured. And look, I get that Barry and Kara have suffered too - Kara, in particular, what with losing her entire planet - but they also haven't gone through the same torture porn and loss that Oliver has. This contrast, less great.

15: Where the HELL has this Katie Cassidy been?

Bad things

1. Arrow, can we drop this "torture gains results" thing? Like, now? You know it's not true, and in this very episode, Not-Laurel and Felicity accomplished their goal without torture, so...maybe leave it out of the dialogue completely?

2. You would think that someone by now would have gotten around to building a nice new hospital room for Arrow and Flash. You would be wrong.

3. On a related note, all of that nice progress we made on sets and props last season? Vanished this season. I mean, yes, kudos to Felicity and Rene for being nice and budget conscious by using some of Supergirl's props, and to be entirely fair to Arrow, the location/set issues were considerably worse on Legends of Tomorrow tonight, but it's still very discouraging, with Rene's "jail" cell providing an arguably new low for the Arrow sets, which I did not think would be possible after the set hells of season 3 and 4. 

Though, Arrow has apparently finally torn down the old QC/PT office trick set. So let's be thankful for no longer having to wonder just how Arrow would fail to hide that set this season.

4. Speaking of sets, Arrow, I fully get that you are trying to convince us that this is the Evil Timeline that Legends of Tomorrow visited back in its first season. INTERESTING NOTE. If you were paying attention, and I was, Team Legends visited Oliver in the ruins of the season 4-6 Arrow Cave. An Arrow Cave that was completely destroyed by Diaz in Arrow season 6. I appreciate the attempt to bring some consistency between the Arrowverse shows beyond the shared love for Beebo, and as said, I'm looking forward to seeing this play out, but you already failed this Arrowverse here.

5. This show needs more Diggle.

6. Seriously, where the hell was this Katie Cassidy before this? Don't get me wrong - I'm delighted to see Arrow finally writing to KC's strengths. But at the same time, this episode made me all the more frustrated with all of the considerably less enjoyable Laurel and Not-Laurel stuff that we had to endure for years - because this episode suggested that wasn't necessary. 

And now, Dinah!

I know, I know. This section has been reserved for Laurel and not-Laurel, but, Not-Laurel had a really great episode this time around! She was snarky! She was competent! She was inspiring! She made a friend! I didn't recognize the character either, but yay!

Dinah, on the other hand...

Number of times Dinah failed as a police officer: Honestly I lost count because I kinda drifted off, but at least six: 1) failing to train/remind her employees supposedly guarding Black Siren that they should be wary of people coming into Not-Laurel's office claiming to be sorority sisters, 2) bringing Rene, rather than, say, another cop, to the community cop thing, 3) doing so poorly as a detective that she needed info sent by Rene through Diggle to find her suspect, not exactly the most 4) not being able to take the arsonist down, despite being armed with both a weapon and her Canary Cry, 5) needing to be rescued by a vigilante, after spending most of the episode complaining about vigilantes, 6) for two episodes in a row now, failing to inform any other authority that the DA is not in fact the DA, thus abetting the crime of impersonating a city officer, which is itself a crime

Number of times Dinah blamed the wrong people, one: Trying to claim that the city lost its faith in law enforcement because of Diaz. OR, Dinah, and I'm just spitballing here, the city lost its faith because it gets attacked nearly every single May, its mayors and district attorneys keep getting assassinated and killed, it takes two hours to respond to 911 calls, and you didn't even bring any donuts to the community meeting. It's not just Diaz, is what I'm saying, and given that you needed the help of a vigilante to take down this week's arsonist, have yet to find Diaz, and remain completely unaware that the current DA has merrily agreed to assist with kidnapping/threatening/tracking a potential suspect, I think the city's lack of faith in you is entirely understandable.

Number of times Dinah embraced a shocking level of hypocrisy: Basically, her character arc for the entire episode: 1) continuing to abet in the crime of allowing someone to impersonate a city official while simultaneously squawking about law and order, 2) tossing Rene in "jail" (or, what the Arrow production crew decided to call "jail") for doing exactly what she had been doing for years, 3) going on and on and on about how superior the law is to vigilantism, while mostly ignoring her own vigilante past, getting helped/saved by vigilantes and finally becoming a vigilante again like, this is really painful.

Number of times Dinah failed as a human being: Hesitating before helping to save New Green Arrow, who had just rescued her AND performed a pretty cool stunt. Geesh, Dinah. And you claim to be trying to be a hero.

This is all baffling. The number one complaint made about Dinah last year was about her hypocrisy, and while I'm always thrilled when Arrow shows an unexpected bit of consistency (in plot, characterization, or whatever) this was probably not the best trait to double down on.

What is it with this show and the various Black Canaries? And can Zoe escape that fate? GULP.

[Mary0360]

2 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I think this ep was run of the mill Arrow dark, but I wasn't expecting such a shitshow in the future. Now every time the team has a victory I'll be thinking...good work, but it's for nothing! Get out while you can!

This. When this show ends, and it's going to end soon, if not this season then next season or one after that, and they do the big ultimate Oliver is a hero of all the heroes climax and finally has gotten his happy ending series finale that usually ends these type genre series.... we are all going to know now that oh wait! actually a few years later everything goes to shit, the city hasn't become better through Olivers heroism and Oliver and everyone in his life are probably as miserable as ever. So way to make the audience enthused about the final act writers. 

[Jediknight]

Curtis gave Zoe a Beebo to help her feel better, Zoe was given the Canary pin, and she's the future Canary, it's not a coincidence.  Beebo watches over his followers.  He made sure Zoe lived, and became a hero.  Rene did take a shot at Beebo, but the Blue God understands it was out of a place of fear, and not his true feelings.  Truly, Beebo is a great and understanding god.

Praise Beebo.

[quarks]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

This.  

There are ways they can get around it.  Like make it turn out to be way less awful than we have been led to believe but right now it feels like all I can hope for is Barry resetting the timeline again and if I have to depend on Barry Allen....

If it helps any, now you can hope that Nora will reset the timeline instead of Barry, so you have to depend on Barry and/or Nora...

....right. Not helping any. Forget I typed anything.

[Mellowyellow]

4 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

I really don’t think I can keep watching this show. I don’t mind a little dark but this has been 4 shows of dark. I’m just not enjoying the hopelessness that they are showing. Why keep watching something so depressing. Oh well  I’m going to wait a couple of shows and see how you all see it. If it gets better I’ll come back. Loved talking with you but I don’t like such depressing themes. 

Nooooo don't go. 

Can't you watch it as a trashy show you laugh at? I mean BS has a detachable nose ring that she puts on for missions. 

I've found I need a sense of humour to contend with this show.

At any rate please visit us in The Quiver! Don't vanish!!! I'll miss you ????

[BkWurm1]

54 minutes ago, quarks said:

If it helps any, now you can hope that Nora will reset the timeline instead of Barry, so you have to depend on Barry and/or Nora...

....right. Not helping any. Forget I typed anything.

I like Nora, I just don't trust that The Flash will have her ultimately do the reset but will somehow maneuver it so Barry has a hand in it and then bets are all off again. Lol.  Felicity's life has imploded and she now seems to think she's never going to get even a smidge of it back (thanks Dig).  You'd think her friends in Central City might have wanted to check up on her.  Or say, break her husband out for a nice visit and then speed him back in time so it's like he was never missing.  Just a thought Barry.   Heck, just lend Felicity a portable breech thingamabob and she'll go to him.  

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

And once again, here I arrive to have a completely different opinion of this episode! 

I can't actually say that I think it was a bad or good episode.  I am having a hard time judging quality with the huge looming destiny making the current day struggles feel a bit futile.  I can only say that it didn't leave me excited or energized or even that looking forward to next week.  Even though I am looking forward to next week.  

[AudienceofOne]

Thankfully my appetite for psychoanalysis of Oliver Queen is endless. 

Oh wait, it's not. I am so very very tired of it. 

I've been waiting for a Felicity/Laurel team-up and it's finally here!

Oh wait, I haven't. I never needed to see Felicity be lectured about ethics by this asshole. Ever. 

So basically half this episode was strictly ff.

I found the other plotlines more enjoyable. If you'd told me a week or so ago that Wild Dog would be one of my favourite characters, I wouldn't have believed you. But here I am. 

5 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I'm so upset at the flash forwards. Oliver's being tortured for nothing. They're all working for nothing. None of it matters, because future Star City is shit. Just let it burn, what's the point? 

In the show's defence, Oliver's torture was already pointless. In fact, the entire prison plot line is pointless. There is literally nothing he can do in prison that people couldn't do from the outside with more efficiency. I get this whole Level 2 plot line will become coincidentally super important later on but for now it's just an excuse for them to bore us with more psychoanalysis and let Amell do the season in his spare time. 

5 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

This ep had way, way too much Dinah, and I admit, this is the first time I noticed how awful an actor she is. 

It's not the first time I noticed it, but she was particularly awful in this. The scene with her, Wild Dog and the GA confrontation she was just woeful.

4 hours ago, RandomWatcher said:

Dinah gives Zoe a canary

Not a bird, though. A canary. We can add biology to acting on the list of things Dinah needs to return to school for.

4 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm probably projecting! I find this show super stupid but it's at the level where I'm like "Yeah I'll roll with that! It's Arrow! Cool."

Whether I'm dropping this show or not varies daily at the moment. I was definitely dropping after episode 2 but here I still am. I'm not connecting with this season but not because it's any worse than last season or the season before - but because it's just as bad as those seasons and I'm struggling. 

Part of the reason is that this show insists on portraying Star City as some kind of feudal city state, divorced from the rest of the country with its own laws, resources and infrastructure . And it means we get stupid like this:

3 hours ago, popgoesculture said:

(Also, why the hell would the Glades be able to wall itself off? WHY DOES ARROW PRETEND THERE'S NO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT??? )

It's a dystopia that can be evaded by ... moving. Seriously. All they'd have to do is move. The anti-vigilante law? The wall? The weird police state where somehow the police in a city can start working for people who, by definition, can't pay them? Don't matter if you just move. I don't know why we really care. It's one thing when Diaz was a threat that could extend beyond the city - but dystopian Metropolitan Area? Not that dark. 

3 hours ago, Chaser said:

I just want Olicity sex.

So does everybody.

Edited November 6, 2018 by AudienceofOne

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I just want Olicity sex.

How much we get probably depends on how upset they think they were going to make us.  Maybe I should root for even more bad news in the FlashForwards before Olicity reunites.  

[AnimeMania]

4 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Wasn't Buffy set on a Hell mound (mouth????)

Same with Star City I guess! 

Yes, a HellMound, surrounded by HellBush.

 

"Felicity Smoak is dead, long live Overlord!"

[kes0704]

A dark and gritty storyline I’m fine with but misery in the present timeline and misery in the future timeline is just a lot to deal with.  I know this is well worn ground for Arrow but at least the misery was confined to the present and you had hope for a better future.

In this incarnation, what exactly is the point of the heroes sacrificing to save the city if none of it will even matter in 20 years? They’re either fighting for a city that’s descended into chaos or (maybe) they’re dead.  That’s not exactly feel good TV.    

And seriously, present Dinah and future Dinah in one episode is at least one Dinah too many.  I would’ve much preferred never knowing exactly what happened to her.  

Edited November 6, 2018 by kes0704

[Angel12d]

Is Zoe supposed to be Dinah's "Sin" or just Black Canary number 55?

[Mellowyellow]

I think Beth took a gamble with this ep. Felicity is one of the few characters where the "Is she dead" question actually has people interested both fans and haters. She's going to get waaaay more buzz for this rather than drawing out whether Dinah is dead (no one gives a f#ck). 

Thing is how far is she going to take this and if Felicity really is dead the fans and buzz will drop like flies. Or on a more depressing note...Bees.

***

This show has such a bad record with BCs. I saw the new one and I was like "Okay...NEXT."

It looks like they are trying to make up for what a sh@tty BC Dinah is by submitting yet ANOTHER future version and hoping the fans will latch onto that.

[thuganomics85]

Man, everyone's apparently riding the Beebo train, at this point!  I guess it's Black Lightning's turn, next.  Hell, maybe even the rest of the non D.C. CW shows will get in on the action.  Beebo will totally be the real mastermind behind that creepy, silly game over on Riverdale!

Not the worst episode, but it kind of felt like Dinah and Rene were the leads tonight, so it isn't exactly gripping stuff for me since I don't care too much for either one (although Rene has somehow become the best of the noobs, which really just shows how far Dinah and Curtis have fallen in my estimation.)  Am kind of digging the new Green Arrow. Totally think new Green Arrow will end up being a woman this time, in order to change things up.

I guess Felicity and Black Siren... err, "Laurel" could have been fun, but as much as I try to avoid being too hard on the acting lately, all I could see was poor Emily Bett Rickards giving it her all, while Katie Cassidy was half-assing it at best.

Creepy prison therapist is totally the Demon or on Diaz's payroll, right?  I guess he's trying to erase Oliver or something.

Speaking of which, no Diaz is a plus, at least.  I guess that loser is still punching walls and telling himself that he's a big man.

[mxc90]

4 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Curtis gave Zoe a Beebo to help her feel better, Zoe was given the Canary pin, and she's the future Canary, it's not a coincidence.  Beebo watches over his followers.  He made sure Zoe lived, and became a hero.  Rene did take a shot at Beebo, but the Blue God understands it was out of a place of fear, and not his true feelings.  Truly, Beebo is a great and understanding god.

Praise Beebo.

Beebo was nowhere to be seen when Zoe was awake. Did she set it free and toss it in the trash?

Has the show ever explained the Star City gun laws? Renee has no problem walking the streets with openly (isn't he on probation?). When Dinah ordered him to drop it he never did (that should have been enough to toss him in jail).

I hope those two aren't going to be a couple.

No wrinkles for future Dinah?! She must use the top skin products.

That theater looked packed for an old school Kung fu movie (nothing else eventful going on in town that night?) and no one asked to dim the lights? Felicity should forget Smoak Technologies and invest in movie theaters that one looked like $hit. 

Dinah and Renee never thought to take a peek under the Green Arrow's mask?

Edited November 6, 2018 by mxc90

[jay741982]

6 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I gotta say, what the hell has happened to Diggle? I really didn't like that boring Diggle/Dinah scene, especially because he actually went to see if she was okay but like 2 episodes ago he told Felicity to get over her trauma and wouldn't help her. WTF. Not impressed!

Writers stupidly putting Diggle and Felicity at odds to force friendships with people they shouldn't be friends with Espicallly Felicity with Rene after what he did last season. Anything to get Viewers to like Rene Dinah and Curtis.

[cambridgeguy]

The future is malleable thanks to sloppy speedsters and the Legends.  Otherwise we already know what will happen  - Oliver will lose an arm and be left alone to sulk, Slade's kid will take over, etc.

[doesntworkonwood]

I can't believe they ruined the flash forwards for me by adding Dinah into the mix. I could have dealt with the destruction of Star City, but I can't deal with what JH calls acting. 

I liked Felicity and Oliver (and future William) in this episode. Everyone else was rubbish. 

[way2interested]

24 minutes ago, doesntworkonwood said:

I liked Felicity and Oliver (and future William) in this episode. Everyone else was rubbish

Don't diss the fabulous flipping obviously female GA! She and Felicity were actually trying to get stuff done and avoid drama!

[Trisha]

6 hours ago, quarks said:

Speaking of sets, Arrow, I fully get that you are trying to convince us that this is the Evil Timeline that Legends of Tomorrow visited back in its first season. 

The showrunner has said that the potential future shown on Legends has no bearing on the flashforwards on Arrow. Which is weird because they are obviously doing parallels (that version of Oliver faked his death like Future Felicity likely is, the next generation took up the vigilante mantel, etc).

Whatever they end up being, the flashforwards are interesting but they need to show us something hopeful from them ASAP. Otherwise it’s just too depressing. Especially since Beth Schwartz says this is a “fixed” future so we can’t count on Flash or Legends-style time bending shenanigans. It would be one thing to think that Oliver never gets out of jail/returns as the Arrow and that’s why the city goes to hell in 20 years but we know that’s not true. So whenever he puts the suit back on this season, it’s all going to feel pointless. 

6 hours ago, quarks said:

This Felicity/Not-Laurel team-up was not just surprisingly fun, but the hands down best acting we've seen from KC for years. I don't want to get overly hopeful here, because wow, has Arrow disappointed me before with this character, but two episodes of a decent Not-Laurel? I'll take it.

It was shocking how good KC was in this ep, especially the scenes in the warehouse. Did they find an Earth 2 version of KC?

1 hour ago, jay741982 said:

Writers stupidly putting Diggle and Felicity at odds to force friendships with people they shouldn't be friends with

I think this was such a miscalculation on the writers’ part. If it wasn’t for how he’s been treating Felicity, I would have liked his conversation with Dinah (I’m always here for an Arrow character re-examining their views on law enforcement.) But the whole scene with him lamenting about how much Dinah has gone through had me screaming “What about what Felicity’s gone through?!?” It’s one thing to have Oliver and Felicity separated through the jail arc, but to have all of OTA be completely apart at the same time makes me wonder if they realize why a lot of people watch this show.

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, Trisha said:

It’s one thing to have Oliver and Felicity separated through the jail arc, but to have all of OTA be completely apart at the same time makes me wonder if they realize why a lot of people watch this show.

I'm guessing the only reason for it is the same stupid writing reason why Oliver didn't tell anyone he was going to prison - so that no one could talk her out of what she's doing, because they really really wanted that Siren/Felicity team up.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Trisha said:

The showrunner has said that the potential future shown on Legends has no bearing on the flashforwards on Arrow. Which is weird because they are obviously doing parallels (that version of Oliver faked his death like Future Felicity likely is, the next generation took up the vigilante mantel, etc).

Whatever they end up being, the flashforwards are interesting but they need to show us something hopeful from them ASAP. Otherwise it’s just too depressing. Especially since Beth Schwartz says this is a “fixed” future so we can’t count on Flash or Legends-style time bending shenanigans. It would be one thing to think that Oliver never gets out of jail/returns as the Arrow and that’s why the city goes to hell in 20 years but we know that’s not true. So whenever he puts the suit back on this season, it’s all going to feel pointless. 

Eh, we've seen showrunners on this show say one thing and then completely change that later.

But leaving that aside for now, Beth Schwartz can say that the potential futures on Flash and Legends of Tomorrow have no bearing on Arrow because Flash is spending this season changing the future timeline and although Legends of Tomorrow is in theory about fixing the timeline, last night's episode had several moments showing that Team Legends has made several long term, possibly permanent changes to the timeline. So the potential futures on those shows aren't fixed and thus don't necessarily have to impact Arrow's future, since there's a quick handwave - "Oh, speedster/Time Bureau/Team Legends changed X so the future we saw/discussed in that episode no longer exists." Problem solved.

But that brings up the major question: why would the timeline be fixed on Arrow, but not the other two shows? "Arrow is the realistic show" doesn't cut it, since a) this episode had Dinah using her not-exactly-realistic Canary Cry, b) as a number of you are correctly pointing out, the future timeline that Arrow is showing is not particularly realistic/makes no sense, and that's before I start asking questions about the incoming food supply/existing grocery stores (though I have questions. Many questions. Also, are the sewer/water systems still working in Future Star City? Because I gotta think that vigilanting requires regular showers.) So....yeah, whatever Beth Schwartz is saying now, I don't think that the future on Arrow is all that set in stone.*

That said, I don't think that Arrow is necessarily moving towards the dark Star City shown in Legends of Tomorrow season one, because that Star City future can't happen - it took place in the Arrow Cave that Diaz destroyed last season. (And did we all notice that the Arrow Cave managed to survive for years prior to Flashpoint, and post Flashpoint only made it for a couple more seasons? All together now: THANKS BARRY!) But I do think that, whatever Beth Schwartz says, Arrow is setting up the ARGUS goes evil plotline that Legends of Tomorrow has shown bits and pieces of, and which Legends of Tomorrow seems to be suggesting will be difficult to change (because of Zari) and yet might be changed (because of Zari). Given the inconsistent futures shown in Flash, Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow, I like to think that the unifying theme is that yes, the future can be changed and apocalypses can be avoided. We'll see if Arrow ends up agreeing with me.

*That's apart from the minor factor that WB apparently wants Arrow to continue for at least ten seasons. Whether or not that's a good idea is a topic for another thread, but for now, it means that nothing is particularly set on Arrow, other than continued issues with production/set design.

[Quark]

I don't understand why Dinah and Rene are getting so much focus this season. They really aren't worth it.

Felicity and Laurel teaming up was fun.

Stephen Amell did some great acting this episode, besides the weird cough he made. Not sure what that was about.

[UNOSEZ]

I liked the episode.. I enjoyed the doctor talking to Ollie about his dad and his violent life also the effect it may have in William... Of course he was also drugging him and messing with his mind with the lights and sounds so didn't like that... Enjoyed Rene and Dinah finding an equilibrium or at least starting to.. And her points about getting ppl to trust police makes sense.. Never been a fan of shows making everyone but our main ppl incompetent or corrupt.. It seems lazy... I liked Diggle having his talk with Dinah about maybe finding another way after both of them seem to find it hard to go full law enforcement while reconciling their vigilante past.. I for one am glad he wasn't around Felicity this episode cuz she may not have listened to his advice that she was going about what she was doing wrong.. And I really didn't need to see that interaction.. And in the end black siren got thru to her and she made moves with her big ol brain... Don't have much interest in the flash forward past seeing who's still alive and what they're up to now... New GA is ok I guess not overly invested in it until I know the who and why... Still overall a good episode ready for next week

[tv echo]

I agree with some others here...

The flashforwards with Adult William and Older Roy initially intrigued me, but now they're just bumming me out. Knowing about such a depressing future just puts a damper on the present day storylines for me. At this point, I won't be surprised if we find out that Diaz is still alive in the future and ruling the Glades. Ugh.

Edited November 6, 2018 by tv echo

[Angel12d]

I find the future timeline super depressing but I do have some questions:

1) Why was William weirdly chill about everything?

2) Why didn't he know that Star City had fallen? Did it only happen a few weeks ago and he didn't check the news because he was too busy following the hozen tracker?

3) Why did Dinah say "Felicity Smoak is dead" like she wasn't talking to Felicity's old friend and stepson?

4) Why hasn't William heard that Felicity is dead? Not just because she's his stepmom but because she's CEO of a major company. That would be on the news.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Angel12d

[catrox14]

Wasn't overly fond of this one. The stuff with Oliver was annoying but I'm assuming he's got another plan afoot. He's been through worse IMO. I remember back in s2 when during flashbacks to the island, he was able to kind of fake out Fiers doping him for the mission.   I'm hoping all this is just flashbacks as an homage to how Oliver got to this point and not as an actual indictment 100% of his activities as the Green Arrow. 

I guess the show wants me to actually hate Dinah now. She doesn't make any sense.  I'm hoping she's just projecting her own shit all over the place because she can't really just abandon being a vigilante. IMO, she likes it too much.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

Please stop trying to redeem Not!Laurel by pairing her with Felicity. It doesn't work on this viewer. I did cheer Felicity straight up saying she's not Laurel.  I mean I was happy for like two seconds. 

[KenyaJ]

7 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I find the future timeline super depressing but I do have some questions:

1) Why was William weirdly chill about everything?

2) Why didn't he know that Star City had fallen? Did it only happen a few weeks ago and he didn't check the news because he was too busy following the hozen tracker?

3) Why did Dinah say "Felicity Smoak is dead" like she wasn't talking to Felicity's old friend and stepson?

4) Why hasn't William heard that Felicity is dead? Not just because she's his stepmom but because she's CEO of a major company. That would be on the news.

I know this is all supposed to be mysterious right now, but none of it makes a lick of sense. I suspect the reason Will is so chill with everything is because he's not as estranged from his parents as he's leading Roy to believe. Knowing the way Oliver and Felicity feel about him, nothing that he's hinted about their relationship sounds plausible.

11 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I gotta say, what the hell has happened to Diggle? I really didn't like that boring Diggle/Dinah scene, especially because he actually went to see if she was okay but like 2 episodes ago he told Felicity to get over her trauma and wouldn't help her. WTF. Not impressed!

Speaking of strained relationships, I have a feeling that this too is going to get swept under the rug –– i.e., right before Oliver gets out of jail, Digg will come to his senses, actually help Felicity, and everyone will carry on as if everything is fine. But I really wish Oliver could find out about the lack of support Digg has given Felicity since she came back to Star City. Just like Felicity, I'm sure Oliver would understand why Diggle can't be much help in going after Diaz, but I think his heart would be broken by Digg's lack of emotional support for Felicity. And if he found out that Digg told Felicity to accept Oliver's imprisonment and move on with her life? Hooboy. My heart constricts just thinking about it. I really wish the show would dive into that instead of ignoring it, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to be disappointed in the end.

[apinknightmare]

Do we know how much time has passed since 7x01? Has it only been a few days? A week? 

Edited November 6, 2018 by apinknightmare

[way2interested]

47 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I find the future timeline super depressing but I do have some questions:

1) Why was William weirdly chill about everything?

2) Why didn't he know that Star City had fallen? Did it only happen a few weeks ago and he didn't check the news because he was too busy following the hozen tracker?

3) Why did Dinah say "Felicity Smoak is dead" like she wasn't talking to Felicity's old friend and stepson?

4) Why hasn't William heard that Felicity is dead? Not just because she's his stepmom but because she's CEO of a major company. That would be on the news.

1) the episode made it kind of look like he doesn't really care about Star City at all because of something that happened, so I'd guess it's because he just wants answers about the hozen and then probably just wants to leave

2) I'd guess pretty much that, along with it looks like he doesn't care about the city

3) Dinah gotta be dramatique because she knew she was the cliffhanger

4) I'd wonder if this all happened recently and that Felicity is just gone from public life, like circa the time when Oliver and Felicity left William but her friends/teammates think she's dead

Still thinking about the timeline of the flashforwards again part of me wonders if all of this takes place way closer than they are pretending it is (like Olicity leaving William). Like, if they basicaly had their normal CW dramatic lives for 18 or so years (possibly except Roy) and then all of this stuff gets kicked off within the last year or so for them to fix it in May sweeps.