S14.E03: The Scar

[catrox14]

So, I was thinking about Jack here and his crying at not having his powers anymore.  The funny thing, that was never adequately explained is that in s13 he didn't even try to heal Cas after Cas was killed and he couldn't heal Kelly apparently. I can headcanon that to be being a "newborn" ..I guess. But then in Tombstone he figured out how to move a pencil and had enough control over his powers to kill the ghoul, and accidentally killed the bank guard, which was really the guard's fault for going out there IMO.  And instead of even attempting heal him, he stood there and begged Castiel to heal him, which only served to make us question Cas' powers.  Skip to him being in the AU, he learned full control over his powers or at least enough to be able to smite Zachariah. Then Dean showed up with the archangel blade, begged him to kill Lucifer and he refused. 

Yet, now he's sobbing about not being able to help this girl he doesn't even know and then pouts because Dean won't let him go and fight when he is clearly not ready.  So stupid.

[catrox14]

Also, this episode is acting like Jack never went hunting with them before or that it was the first time he figured out a case.  He figured out the Tombstone case FFS. LOL

[Airmid]

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

Since when can any human not easily best any angel/demon/monster?  They've become weak and puny in the last few years and it's not just the angels so we can't blame the fall.

Actually, given how they've been writing angels/demons/monsters for the last few years, you're right. @BabySpinach did bring up a good point that Michael was able to do intensely powerful things earlier. However, I would argue that him being bested like he was is more in line with how the show has been writing angels in general, archangel or not. Lucifer was pretty much a limp noodle and could even be somehow drugged by Rowena. Gabriel could be injured by a weapon, not of heaven, and got himself kidnapped and tortured by a bunch of lowbie gods and an unimpressive prince of hell. That's not even getting into the Michael vs Gabriel and Michael vs Lucifer crap, or that Michael couldn't figure out how to go around a line of holy fire (like exiting out the back of the building even).

So, Kaia besting him seems really in line with what the show has on offer. The aberrant portion was him displaying any kinds of competency earlier, which is all kinds of frustrating. 

[BabySpinach]

Jensen's expression here was genuinely unsettling, much scarier than anyone else on this show has been for a while. He looked crazed and manic, and so very unlike Dean. He certainly didn't need a ridiculous accent or distracting facial tics to be completely distinguishable from the usual role he plays.

The only issue is that this perky-yet-dead-eyed version of Michael doesn't really line up with Jensen's portrayal of him in the premiere, but I'm willing to let that slide. One thing I'm genuinely looking forward to is more Michael flashbacks. Story answers wouldn't hurt, either.

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Jensen's expression here was genuinely unsettling, much scarier than anyone else on this show has been for a while. He looked crazed and manic, and so very unlike Dean. He certainly didn't need a ridiculous accent or distracting facial tics to be completely distinguishable from the usual role he plays.

The only issue is that this perky-yet-dead-eyed version of Michael doesn't really line up with Jensen's portrayal of him in the premiere, but I'm willing to let that slide. One thing I'm genuinely looking forward to is more Michael flashbacks. Story answers wouldn't hurt, either.

As much as I Ioathe fact that Jensen receive exactly zero outside help with who and how Michael was supposed to be in the first episode (aside from the advice he requested from Christian), I would argue that this progression to perky-yet-dead-eyed (love that, lol) isn't so far out of line. Michael in 14x01 was still feeling his way around our Earth. By the time he confronted Not!Kaia, he was well into his plan (whatever that might be) and had encountered little to no significant resistance. So being somewhat more animated, perkier, is a reasonable progression, even if it was sort of a happy accident.

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As much as I Ioathe fact that Jensen receive exactly zero outside help with who and how Michael was supposed to be in the first episode (aside from the advice he requested from Christian), I would argue that this progression to perky-yet-dead-eyed (love that, lol) isn't so far out of line. Michael in 14x01 was still feeling his way around our Earth. By the time he confronted Not!Kaia, he was well into his plan (whatever that might be) and had encountered little to no significant resistance. So being somewhat more animated, perkier, is a reasonable progression, even if it was sort of a happy accident.

Also, maybe it's a little sign that Dean impacted Michael. Maybe Michael was trying to use some of Dean's sass because he had access to his memories.  Also thinking back to s13, IMO the Christian Keyes vessel had moments of sassy. Maybe Michael actually likes that aspect of Dean and figured he'd try it a little bit.  In 14.1 he did say that he was the 'better one' and said "There it is"...which is a bit sassy. 

[S Cook Productions]

On 10/27/2018 at 3:17 PM, tennisgurl said:

So, there was some good, and some bad here, and some that was just...what? 

The Good:

Lots of good interaction between Sam and Dean, with Dean saying how nothing was wrong over and over again, and Sam clearly being worried for him, and they had a lot of fun banter. The many jokes about Sams questionable facial hair (which I think looks pretty good!) were hilarious, and the last part in the car where Dean finally admitted what he went through. It was a really affecting scene and very well acted. 

Cas`s reaction when he saw Dean was super heartwarming, he looked like he was about to start crying with happiness when he saw Dean back to himself. And I thought his scenes trying to fix the cursed girl, and trying to help Jack, were well done. Its nice to see him being good at stuff, and being a sort of mentor again. However, why didnt we get a Dan and Cas reunion hug! They clearly needed one!

Nice to see Jody again. Its clear that the writers arent over their backdoor pilot not getting picked up (I am disappointed as well) but I dont mind seeing the characters showing up. Jody is cool, and I like how much she clearly cares about the Winchesters, and vice versa. She works well with them. 

I liked the hunter woman that Cas worked with, and while the actual story with the girl was pretty lame, I thought the actresses playing both the hunter and the girl were really good. 

The desperation of being possessed being like drowning was a great, visceral way to explain what happened to Dean, and it affected him.

The Bad: 

Why is Cas constantly stuck in the bunker lately? I get why they wanted to keep the focus on Sam and Dean right after Dean came back, but its getting a bit ridiculous. Is he on house arrest? Is it because he got embarrassingly beaten by demons in the first episode?

There are so many of these AU people, and I dont really care about any of them. Some of them seem nice enough, but having Sam as the leader of his own little AU hunter army just seems weird to me. I was right there with Dean on his confusion about all these random people at their place. 

Jack has his moments, I dont hate him or anything, but we are just spending so much freaking time with this kid! And its always angst angst angst! "I dont have powers! I still dont have powers! I wanna be taken seriously! Have I mentioned my lack of powers?" I know that the kid is, like, seven or something technically, but its just the same thing over and over again. And the stuff with the teen girl was just so on the nose, that I thought for awhile that all this was a hallucination or a dream, convincing him not to run away. 

Jack was the only one who realized that the creepy glowing necklace that matched the one on the witch, just MIGHT be causing some of these problems? Really? And Jack hugging Dean would be a lot more heartwarming if just last week Jack was coldly telling Cas that killing Dean to kill Michael was fine and dandy.

Maybe I am just a sap, and I know thats how Dean always is, but I wish we had spent more time on Dean and him coming back from possession, instead of jumping over to Jody. Maybe focus on just Dean and Sam and Deans clear trauma for an episode? And maybe have him actually interact with his mom, or his best friend? Make things actually about him? And, while I dont think him allowing Michael in was the smartest idea, he did do it to save lives, and suffered terribly for it, so maybe a...thank you could suffice? 

The What:

So, maybe I am forgetting something, but isnt AU Kaia just a normal person? She has some psychic stuff going on, but is mostly just an average human? How the hell can a normal teenage girl land a real hit on Michael, the guy who makes Satan himself nervous?! Her fighting wasn't all that impressive, and I felt most of her fight with Michael being like "why doesn't he just snap his fingers and smite her like he does with everyone else?" instead of being impressed. The whole thing was just weird and awkward. The actress was fine, but her being able to kick so much ass and show everyone what for was way too much to for, especially for an episode that should be all about Dean coming back. And her being all sassy and "bad ass" and wearing all black just screamed "LOOK AT THE COOL CHARACTER!", in a way that felt rather unauthentic. And, maybe I remember wrong, but didnt Claire only know Kaia for about a day? I get that she probably made an impression, especially after her tragic death, but they talked like they were this big romance. Am I remembering? 

Pretty much all of this ??

[Binns]

I enjoyed the episode, but I’m not one to dig into things the way some of you are. I guess I’m more superficial. But I haven’t seen anyone mention - loved the canon touch when Sam spouted off the information about the last serial killer in Sioux Falls. He has that weird serial killer thing....wasn’t that season 1 that Dean teased him about it? 

[S Cook Productions]

11 minutes ago, Binns said:

I enjoyed the episode, but I’m not one to dig into things the way some of you are. I guess I’m more superficial. But I haven’t seen anyone mention - loved the canon touch when Sam spouted off the information about the last serial killer in Sioux Falls. He has that weird serial killer thing....wasn’t that season 1 that Dean teased him about it? 

This too! :)

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Also, maybe it's a little sign that Dean impacted Michael. Maybe Michael was trying to use some of Dean's sass because he had access to his memories.  Also thinking back to s13, IMO the Christian Keyes vessel had moments of sassy. Maybe Michael actually likes that aspect of Dean and figured he'd try it a little bit.  In 14.1 he did say that he was the 'better one' and said "There it is"...which is a bit sassy. 

Yes, that's why I think its organic that Michael would wary, formal at first, but as he got more comfortable in his (new) skin, so to speak, more of his sardonic personality came out.

[ZennyKenny]

It does seem like a silly MarySue tactic to have a teenage girl whoop Michael's ass. But after thinking about it, what if that's not what was happening? Michael did say that he wanted her on his team, not just the weapon. So what if he was just sparring with her to evaluate her power level? Like, to see if she's really worthy to be part of his army? Treating people like lab rats does seem to be his thing. And what if he was so arrogant (cos he does seem pretty overconfident) that he was genuinely surprised that the spear hurt him at all?

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So, I was thinking about Jack here and his crying at not having his powers anymore.  The funny thing, that was never adequately explained is that in s13 he didn't even try to heal Cas after Cas was killed and he couldn't heal Kelly apparently. I can headcanon that to be being a "newborn" ..I guess. But then in Tombstone he figured out how to move a pencil and had enough control over his powers to kill the ghoul, and accidentally killed the bank guard, which was really the guard's fault for going out there IMO.  And instead of even attempting heal him, he stood there and begged Castiel to heal him, which only served to make us question Cas' powers.  Skip to him being in the AU, he learned full control over his powers or at least enough to be able to smite Zachariah. Then Dean showed up with the archangel blade, begged him to kill Lucifer and he refused. 

Yet, now he's sobbing about not being able to help this girl he doesn't even know and then pouts because Dean won't let him go and fight when he is clearly not ready.  So stupid.

He's either in his terrible twos or he's being a petulant teenager.

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

It does seem like a silly MarySue tactic to have a teenage girl whoop Michael's ass. But after thinking about it, what if that's not what was happening? Michael did say that he wanted her on his team, not just the weapon. So what if he was just sparring with her to evaluate her power level? Like, to see if she's really worthy to be part of his army? Treating people like lab rats does seem to be his thing. And what if he was so arrogant (cos he does seem pretty overconfident) that he was genuinely surprised that the spear hurt him at all?

I would like something like this.   But I think Berens is too in love with his Mary Sues.

[Bobcatkitten]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Also, this episode is acting like Jack never went hunting with them before or that it was the first time he figured out a case.  He figured out the Tombstone case FFS. LOL

He never went hunting with them as a full human. They knew he could defend himself before. But not so much now. 

[MysteryGuest]

I finally had a chance to watch this episode.  In fact, my niece came over, and we watched all three episodes on Amazon.  As usual, it makes a much better impression without commercials.  I can say that I enjoyed all three episodes.  I will always hope for more Sam and Dean, and less superfluous characters, but we know that's not going to change, so I need to deal with it.  

I've been whining for a few years now about how I want them to get back to monster hunting, and how I want them to utilize the bunker more, work with more hunters, etc., and it seems like we are getting that.  It may not be happening the way I expected, but it does appear to be happening.  After all Sam and Dean have been through, your run-of-the-mill monster isn't going to be much of a challenge for them.  So these souped up hybrids that Michael has created are a simple way to make the hunt more exciting.  Or in this case, having our boys actually be the hunted.  It's an interesting twist, and one that we had talked about, so I hope it continues.  I originally thought it would be the monsters rising up in retaliation for the BMOL slaughters, but this works too.  I want more!

Dean is obviously struggling after his possession by Michael.  He feels guilty for saying yes, even though he'd do it again without hesitation.  Sam understands his brother very well, and I thought the scene in Baby between the two of them was very well done.  Sam may not have said the actual words to Dean that some people wanted to hear, but the tears in his eyes while Dean was assuming the blame for everything told me what I needed to know.  Sam doesn't blame Dean.  Sam knows Dean, and knows exactly how hard his brother is going to be on himself.  That to me was love.  These men have been through so much together, and the fact that Dean could open up about it so quickly is another good sign.  

I really like Kaia (not sure how she spells her name).  And her words to Dean were interesting.  While it sounded condemning at first, she acknowledged that she understands it's his fear that drives him to do what he does.  Not fear of dying or monsters, but fear for the people he loves.  I agree with her.  I hope they manage to work her character into the storyline a bit more, because I think she's good.

I have no clue where they're going with Nick, and I honestly couldn't care less.  Whether he really killed his family, or someone else did, it doesn't alter the fact that I'm sick to death of Lucifer's story, and have no interest in getting to know NIck's.  There are enough characters in the show that we don't need to keep him around...please!

Jack is obviously going through a tough time.  I hope he snaps out of it soon.  It's no fun watching him be pathetic anymore than it was watching Cas act that way for years.  I like the new Castiel.  He's definitely feeling a part of TFW now, which is good to see.  And the bit of world-weariness that he shows makes sense.  He's been around a long time so it fits.  

I'm assuming we'll see Michael again at some point, but I'm happy to have Dean back.  Loved his making fun of Sam's beard.  Loved his reaction to Sam being called "chief".  I always enjoy Jody.  Her affection for the boys is so real, and they need someone like her in their lives.  Although that poor woman always ends up getting something broken whenever she's with them.  

All in all, I'm enjoying the season so far.  I hope it continues.  I recommend to everyone to watch the show without commercials.  It's so much better!

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

He never went hunting with them as a full human. They knew he could defend himself before. But not so much now. 

Eh...maybe. But that doesn't address that he already had the mind of a hunter when he solved the case in Tombstone.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

He's either in his terrible twos or he's being a petulant teenager.

Well... he's technically both so you're not wrong.  Having information is not the same thing as knowledge.  He has information about many things but his knowledge of the world is pretty spotty.  Especially when he used powers for short cuts on problem solving.  

And really, he's constantly got 3 Badass Dads to live up to in his mind.  Kinda daunting.

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So, I was thinking about Jack here and his crying at not having his powers anymore.  The funny thing, that was never adequately explained is that in s13 he didn't even try to heal Cas after Cas was killed and he couldn't heal Kelly apparently. I can headcanon that to be being a "newborn" ..I guess. But then in Tombstone he figured out how to move a pencil and had enough control over his powers to kill the ghoul, and accidentally killed the bank guard, which was really the guard's fault for going out there IMO.  And instead of even attempting heal him, he stood there and begged Castiel to heal him, which only served to make us question Cas' powers.  Skip to him being in the AU, he learned full control over his powers or at least enough to be able to smite Zachariah. Then Dean showed up with the archangel blade, begged him to kill Lucifer and he refused. 

Yet, now he's sobbing about not being able to help this girl he doesn't even know and then pouts because Dean won't let him go and fight when he is clearly not ready.  So stupid.

 

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

He's either in his terrible twos or he's being a petulant teenager.

He IS both and there in lies every excuse the writers would ever want or need to explain everything and anything away that the character might say or do wrong, or that might possibly be seen as questionable.

It's a built-in writers' whitewashing tool, IMO, and ensures that the wooby factor can be called on time and time again for and by the subset of fandom that they're trying to please the most with this character.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Myrelle

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

He IS both and there in lies every excuse the writers would ever want or need to explain everything and anything away that the character might say or do wrong, or that might possibly be seen as questionable.

It's a built-in writers' whitewashing tool, IMO, and ensures that the wooby factor can be called on time and time again for and by the subset of fandom that they're trying to please the most with this character.

This sooo much! I have zero interest in woobie Jack and I could care less about his hurt feelings when Dean said that he shouldn't come along during the hunt. "Oh Dean is such a dick when he hurt Jack's feelings" even though Cas and Sam were telling him that he needed to stay behind during the same scene!! Does everyone need to handle him with kid gloves?!? Whether or not he's technically a kid he looks and acts like a teenager and he's Lucifer's freaking kid. If I have to endure an entire season of everyone talking to him in soft tones and telling him how super special he is while giving Dean death glares when he doesn't fall in line I'm going to lose my mind. With that being said I should just prepare myself to do so since I'm sure that's what is going to happen.

Edited October 29, 2018 by DeeDee79

[devlin]

I loved watching Jody with Dean. There is real affection between those two. That’s the only wayward chick I ever want to see.

[MysteryGuest]

22 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

This sooo much! I have zero interest in woobie Jack and I could care less about his hurt feelings when Dean said that he shouldn't come along during the hunt. "Oh Dean is such a dick when he hurt Jack's feelings" even though Cas and Sam were telling him that he needed to stay behind during the same scene!!

I'm not interested in watching this for the entire season, either, but I don't honestly get the big deal about what Dean said.  He just got back from being possessed by Michael, and he's on a mission to find the weapon that might be able to kill him.  He's a little testy, but so what?  He's allowed to be, and I don't think anyone was making a big deal out of what he said.  They were all saying basically the same thing.  I fully expect Dean to be a bit unhinged this season as a result of the possession.  I think Jensen has even said that will be a recurring theme.  It's a realistic reaction, so I don't have a problem with it.  

Edited October 30, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[DeeDee79]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not interested in watching this for the entire season, either, but I don't honestly don't get the big deal about what Dean said.  He just got back from being possessed by Michael, and he's on a mission to find the weapon that might be able to kill him.  He's a little testy, but so what?  He's allowed to be, and I don't think anyone was making a big deal out of what he said.  They were all saying basically the same thing.  I fully expect Dean to be a bit unhinged this season as a result of the possession.  I think Jensen has even said that will be a recurring theme.  It's a realistic reaction, so I don't have a problem with it.  

Did you take my post as a statement of me saying that I agree with the opinion that Dean was being bad/mean/dickish? If so that wasn't what I was trying to state. I was pointing out that it was ridiculous for them to have acted like he was in the wrong and it was underlined by him referring to himself as a dick. The overall tone of your comment suggests that you think that I was personally complaining that he was being a dick and that is far from what I think.

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Did you take my post as a statement of me saying that I agree with the opinion that Dean was being bad/mean/dickish? If so that wasn't what I was trying to state. I was pointing out that it was ridiculous for them to have acted like he was in the wrong and it was underlined by him referring to himself as a dick. The overall tone of your comment suggests that you think that I was personally complaining that he was being a dick and that is far from what I think.

No, I didn't think you were saying Dean was being a dick.  I was saying he was being a dick, but so what?  He's just been through quite a bit, so I expect him to be a bit off.  And having Dean acknowledge that he was being a dick is what I like about him.  He's not a jerk by nature, but he does know when he's crossed the line, and he's big enough to apologize for it.  I don't think anyone (except for Dean, himself) is going to hold that against him.  Not even Jack.  I also don't think it's a big deal.  It's part of who he is.  

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

No, I didn't think you were saying Dean was being a dick.  I was saying he was being a dick, but so what?  He's just been through quite a bit, so I expect him to be a bit off.  And having Dean acknowledge that he was being a dick is what I like about him.  He's not a jerk by nature, but he does know when he's crossed the line, and he's big enough to apologize for it.  I don't think anyone (except for Dean, himself) is going to hold that against him.  Not even Jack.  I also don't think it's a big deal.  It's part of who he is.  

I see. Okay then!

[trudysmom]

Rewatched and a couple of things screamed out at me. The fight in the cabin with the 3 goonie vamps, (Did they buy out all the funky buck teeth they could get in honor of Halloween?) the goons got in what looked like some good licks, popping both guys in the jaw repeatedly, especially Dean.  (I'm always worried about that pretty face) After it was over, only Jody looked to have any sort of mark on her.  Besides the broken arm, her face was bruised.  No bruises on Sam or Dean.  No split lip, not even a smudge of dirt from the floor.  It's like they put so much emphasis on making sure Dean is a Dick is the theme of the episode, and spotlighting the amazing gymnastic talents of AUKaia, Master SmartAss, they forgot or just blew off any sort of realistic touches for the brothers.  Lazy.  Lazy editing, lazy writing, (just let Dean blame himself for everything, that's his thing).  Best thing about this episode, no Mary.  So thanks for that.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

No, I didn't think you were saying Dean was being a dick.  I was saying he was being a dick, but so what?  He's just been through quite a bit, so I expect him to be a bit off.  And having Dean acknowledge that he was being a dick is what I like about him.  He's not a jerk by nature, but he does know when he's crossed the line, and he's big enough to apologize for it.  I don't think anyone (except for Dean, himself) is going to hold that against him.  Not even Jack.  I also don't think it's a big deal.  It's part of who he is.  

And yet Jack cried about it and was packing up his bags to run away from home. None of their reactions (Sam, Cas, Jack) gave the impression of it being no big deal, or expected, or even understandable. I absolutely agree with your view of the scene, but I absolutely don't think that's what we were supposed to take away from it.

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And yet Jack cried about it and was packing up his bags to run away from home. None of their reactions (Sam, Cas, Jack) gave the impression of it being no big deal, or expected, or even understandable. I absolutely agree with your view of the scene, but I absolutely don't think that's what we were supposed to take away from it.

Jack's been on the ragged edge since the beginning of the season.  Dean's comment may not have helped matters, but Jack's running away was a foregone conclusion, I think.  They'd all been telling him the same thing...he's not ready to fight yet.  But now that he's saved the day with his brilliant mind, he has a purpose.  Of course, he seems to have contracted TB, so who knows what's in store for him, going forward. 

[mertensia]

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And yet Jack cried about it and was packing up his bags to run away from home. None of their reactions (Sam, Cas, Jack) gave the impression of it being no big deal, or expected, or even understandable. I absolutely agree with your view of the scene, but I absolutely don't think that's what we were supposed to take away from it.

Dean is not responsible for Jack's reactions. Jack's reactions are not unreasonable, to be honest. I don't see what the issue is. Both of them are correct in this in my opinion: Dean did act bluntly and was sincere in his "I was a dick". Jack felt babified. Again, not a zero sum game.

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Dean is not responsible for Jack's reactions. Jack's reactions are not unreasonable, to be honest. I don't see what the issue is. Both of them are correct in this in my opinion: Dean did act bluntly and was sincere in his "I was a dick". Jack felt babified. Again, not a zero sum game.

Exactly -- and Dean saying he's 'barely 100lbs dripping wet' would have been fine if Jack wasn't fragile about being useless. Truth is, they've taken less qualified people into worse situations.  They're protective of Jack and literally tell him what to do.  He's not yet treated like an adult (regardless of body-apparent age, I think they're aren't wrong that he's still maturing towards adulthood).  So, Dean calling himself a dick was a bit harsh on Dean's part but since the sun and moon kindof rise on Dean's opinion, Jack takes it harder.  It is what it is.    

[gonzosgirrl]

56 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Jack's been on the ragged edge since the beginning of the season.  Dean's comment may not have helped matters, but Jack's running away was a foregone conclusion, I think.  They'd all been telling him the same thing...he's not ready to fight yet.  But now that he's saved the day with his brilliant mind, he has a purpose.  Of course, he seems to have contracted TB, so who knows what's in store for him, going forward. 

 

21 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Dean is not responsible for Jack's reactions. Jack's reactions are not unreasonable, to be honest. I don't see what the issue is. Both of them are correct in this in my opinion: Dean did act bluntly and was sincere in his "I was a dick". Jack felt babified. Again, not a zero sum game.

 

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

Exactly -- and Dean saying he's 'barely 100lbs dripping wet' would have been fine if Jack wasn't fragile about being useless. Truth is, they've taken less qualified people into worse situations.  They're protective of Jack and literally tell him what to do.  He's not yet treated like an adult (regardless of body-apparent age, I think they're aren't wrong that he's still maturing towards adulthood).  So, Dean calling himself a dick was a bit harsh on Dean's part but since the sun and moon kindof rise on Dean's opinion, Jack takes it harder.  It is what it is.    

All of these things are true, more or less. My point was that Dean being a dick was not excused by Show or presented as an after-effect of his possession, but rather as a character trait/flaw. Just look at Sam and Cas's reactions. And then Not!Kaia's words. And Dean's own words. It's my opinion that this was the authorial intent.

Edited October 30, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

All of these things are true, more or less. My point was that Dean being a dick was not excused by Show or presented as an after-effect of his possession, but rather as a character trait/flaw. Just look at Sam and Cas's reactions. And then Not!Kaia's words. And Dean's own words. It's my opinion that this was the authorial intent.

But if you watch the show, then you should understand the context of Dean's behavior.  I don't need for the writers to spell that out in their script, or to make sure that his behavior is explained all the time or excused away.  I'm not sure when we all got so defensive on Dean's behalf.  I think he manages just fine on his own.    

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

 

All of these things are true, more or less. My point was that Dean being a dick was not excused by Show or presented as an after-effect of his possession, but rather as a character trait/flaw. Just look at Sam and Cas's reactions. And then Not!Kaia's words. And Dean's own words. It's my opinion that this was the authorial intent.

Dean is not a reliable narrator when it comes to his own guilt.  I think he once said "The Black Plague, that's on me!"  Kaia is not a reliable narrator when she's both the villain and trying to piss off Dean.

Dean doesn't listen to Sam when Sam tries to excuse Dean's behavior.  Doesn't mean he shouldn't try from time to time but if he doesn't counter EVERY time, I'm not fussed.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean is not a reliable narrator when it comes to his own guilt.  I think he once said "The Black Plague, that's on me!"  Kaia is not a reliable narrator when she's both the villain and trying to piss off Dean.

Dean doesn't listen to Sam when Sam tries to excuse Dean's behavior.  Doesn't mean he shouldn't try from time to time but if he doesn't counter EVERY time, I'm not fussed.

I don't  need Sam to excuse Dean's behavior every time.  What I would like is for Sam to *defend* him when someone else says he's nothing but a killer or that he's attacking because he's afraid.  I think Dean needs to hear that Sam doesn't think of him that way.  

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I don't  need Sam to excuse Dean's behavior every time.  What I would like is for Sam to *defend* him when someone else says he's nothing but a killer or that he's attacking because he's afraid.  I think Dean needs to hear that Sam doesn't think of him that way.  

We don't really know what Kaia is yet, but I didn't think what she said to Dean was that awful.  It sounded bad at first, but she basically just told him what he already knows, but doesn't admit to himself.  And his fear is not a sign of weakness.  He's not afraid for himself.  He's afraid for those he cares about.  Afraid that he won't be able to save them.  That's exactly who he is, so why would Sam deny that?  Kaia was just giving Dean some insight into himself, she wasn't just insulting him for the sake of insult.

Edited October 30, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean is not a reliable narrator when it comes to his own guilt.  I think he once said "The Black Plague, that's on me!"  Kaia is not a reliable narrator when she's both the villain and trying to piss off Dean.

Dean doesn't listen to Sam when Sam tries to excuse Dean's behavior.  Doesn't mean he shouldn't try from time to time but if he doesn't counter EVERY time, I'm not fussed.

Even if Dean nor Kaia are reliable narrators (which I don't think is necessarily the case) there were two other people present in that scene who said nothing to defend Dean or correct Kaia's assertion. Or with Jack, to tell Dean that he was right to not let Jack go and that even if he was a little harsh, that doesn't make him a dick. 

But that never happens. So what is the authorial intent in that case?

[gonzosgirrl]

47 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But if you watch the show, then you should understand the context of Dean's behavior.  I don't need for the writers to spell that out in their script, or to make sure that his behavior is explained all the time or excused away.  I'm not sure when we all got so defensive on Dean's behalf.  I think he manages just fine on his own.    

I watch the show. I'm just not seeing the same thing you are. I understand the context just fine, and I also understand when viewers are being lead by the hand to see a character a certain way. We disagree on what that way is.

[ahrtee]

57 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

We don't really know what Kaia is yet, but I didn't think what she said to Dean was that awful.  It sounded bad at first, but she basically just told him what he already knows, but doesn't admit to himself. 

 

The problem for me is that he *does* already know it and has admitted it to himself many many times, and he needs someone he trusts to tell him it's not true.  

36 minutes ago, SueB said:

3) That Sam and Jody know Dean well enough to know that even though he blames himself for many things, he's not stupid enough to believe a hostage who is mouthing off insults?  

Everyone--from Alistair to Cain to Ketch to angry angels have told him over and over that he's nothing but a killer, and I'm pretty sure he believes it.  He's even said it himself a few times.  So when a complete stranger--someone he's only known for a few minutes--tells him exactly the same thing, and the rest of his "family" who supposedly love and want to support him just stand back and nod their heads, that just validates it.  

 

57 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And his fear is not a sign of weakness.  He's not afraid for himself.  He's afraid for those he cares about.  Afraid that he won't be able to save them.  That's exactly who he is, so why would Sam deny that?

 I have to admit I wasn't paying a lot of attention, but I don't remember Kaia saying he wasn't afraid for himself, or just because he couldn't save people.  All I heard was that the reason he was behaving like a dick was because he was afraid, which does seem to me a pretty big slap in the face (again, from someone who doesn't know him at all.)  Maybe I missed it.  

57 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Kaia was just giving Dean some insight into himself, she wasn't just insulting him for the sake of insult.

Since you've said Dean already knows all this, then Kaia isn't giving him any new insight.  And I'm pretty sure she wasn't trying to do him a favor by admitting it to himself.  

And since the audience has also seen Dean struggle with these issues for years, we really didn't need to hear it again.  If we wanted to think that Kaia was just lashing out and trying to get a rise out of him, she could have picked  something that wasn't quite so close to home--because she shouldn't actually *know* what would upset him the most.  

Edited October 30, 2018 by ahrtee
remove double word

[Casseiopeia]

24 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And since the audience has also seen Dean struggle with these issues for years, we really didn't need to hear it again. 

In Dabb's tenure it seems like every season (or almost every episode) we have had to rehash the basic "characteristics" of our main cast.  Dean is volatile, low self esteem and a sloppy eater.  Sam is sullen, emo and stands around in the background because he is freakishly tall.  And Cas???

 Presumably for all the new fans that Dabb/Singer assume are replacing the core fans.  I think the ratings might disagree with that assumption.  I don't think even new fans are finding it very entertaining.

 

How does BP Kaia know anything about Dean?  She's a dreamwalker not a mind reader.  Since she presumably came from a mostly unpopulated world how would she have insight into other humans?  Especially ones from completely different life experience.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[BabySpinach]

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

We don't really know what Kaia is yet, but I didn't think what she said to Dean was that awful.  It sounded bad at first, but she basically just told him what he already knows, but doesn't admit to himself.  And his fear is not a sign of weakness.  He's not afraid for himself.  He's afraid for those he cares about.  Afraid that he won't be able to save them.  That's exactly who he is, so why would Sam deny that?  Kaia was just giving Dean some insight into himself, she wasn't just insulting him for the sake of insult.

Let's not forget that Kaia is an unrepentant murderer who killed her own counterpart while trying to kill another innocent. She also tried to feed Sam and Dean to a giant troll. Yet she gets to mouth off to one of the main characters about what a weak bully he is, as if she has some sort of moral high ground and we're supposed to feel sorry for how Michael punched her in the face and Dean tried to intimidate her. 

The fact is that no character on Supernatural has a right to stand above Dean and criticize his moral caliber because they've all done worse than he has, know nothing of his life, and/or owe their lives to him. But Kaia's words were clearly meant to carry some weight, given the framing and the lack of anyone coming to his defense at any point in the story. Those claims were bullshit on their own, but for a morally bankrupt character to spout them without a hint of self-awareness shows a lack of nuance and critical thinking on the part of the writer. He's so blinded by his pet Sue's awesomeness that he doesn't realize what a stupid hypocrite he turned her into. Hypocrisy is the death knell for any character, villain or hero, that you want to make likable. 

I hated this just as much as I hated Bella's speech to Dean in 3.06, when she made the ludicrous claim that the brothers were no different than she was, despite her being a murderous thief who cared only for herself and regularly fucked over innocents. Yet her argument went unchallenged, which gave her words more weight than they deserved. It's the same kind of dissonance between intent and conveyance that we now have with Kaia.

Edited October 30, 2018 by BabySpinach

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

t sounded bad at first, but she basically just told him what he already knows, but doesn't admit to himself.  And his fear is not a sign of weakness.  He's not afraid for himself.  He's afraid for those he cares about.  Afraid that he won't be able to save them.  That's exactly who he is, so why would Sam deny that?  Kaia was just giving Dean some insight into himself, she wasn't just insulting him for the sake of insult.

 

53 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The problem for me is that he *does* already know it

Exactly.  Of course we all know that Dean is afraid that he will not be able to save those he loves. Everyone knows this, including Dean. He has lived with this fear his whole life. He doesn't need anyone to give him "insight" into this fact, and neither does the audience.

Anyway, if Kaia was really just attempting to help Dean out by sharing her great wisdom and insight into who he is (because she is just so awesome that she already understands him better than he knows himself, I suppose), then I guess Berens didn't know this. He stated that Kaia said what she said only because she has a grudge against Dean and was trying to get under his skin. I agree with this; I just disagree that the audience was supposed to see her words as totally unjustified, based on the way the episode was written.

When she says, "I saw what you did. When you got angry, you shoved your gun in her [original Kaia's] face", followed by a flashback to that scene, there is no indication, either in what she or anyone else says, or in the flashback itself, that Dean had just found out that his mother was in danger. What we are clearly shown is someone who is being a bully, both to original Kaia and this Kaia.   She immediately follows this by saying,  "You're scared. And you're weak." There is no sympathy or understanding in her face, unless the actress is doing a really bad job; what really comes across is contempt. If his fear "is not a sign of weakness", why does she call him weak? She doesn't even hint that the fear behind his anger is not for himself or that it comes from his desire to save people -- she says that it comes from him being weak. She is insulting him.

Of course, if someone thinks that Dean as a character is weak and pathetic and a bully, then perhaps they would see Kaia's words as a useful insight. However I don't agree that he is. I would love to see Kaia have to eat her words, but it is obvious to me that she is a Mary Sue, and so I doubt she will ever will have to. For this type of character, the other characters will always be used to make her look good, not the other way around.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Bergamot

[Myrelle]

54 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Kaia was just giving Dean some insight into himself, she wasn't just insulting him for the sake of insult.

She said Dean was "just like him"(meaning Michael). That's not insight into Dean, IMO. That's an insult to me as was just about everything she said to him, except for the part about him being afraid because Michael hurt him; but Dean took everything she said to heart because he WAS vulnerable from being possessed by Michael and that was why Jody and Sam needed to defend him and offer words of encouragement afterwards-even if it WAS unlikely that Dean would be able to hear them, at that time.

It's like none of the  characters on this show can recognize when Dean is vulnerable because the writers won't let them and I'd like to know why that is. And just telling him that they know when he's "afraid" or fearful or feeling "weak" is not enough. Someone should be telling him that he's strong to have survived Michael possessing him and for fighting as hard as he did during those three long weeks when it was taking place and that they're happy that he's back with them and that they're grateful to him for sacrificing himself in that way and saving their lives.

But we got none of that from any of the other characters via the writing in an episode when Dean so clearly needed it. 

And it's not the first time that this has happened, so maybe it's that the writers feel that every other character on the show needs those things while Dean doesn't, but just going by Jensen's performances of Dean in those situations over the years, I'd have to disagree vehemently with them(and with anyone, for that matter) who could believe that about Dean.

He needs those type of words now (and has in the past also when they were denied him by anyone and everyone including and starting with dear old dad all those many years ago) just as much as Jack or Sam or Bobby or Mary or Cas has ever needed them and HE was the one providing them more often than not.

One of his loved ones is going to have to step up in this way or I fear that they will lose Dean to his own inner demons for good and as he was almost lost to them last season in the episode Advanced Thanatology.

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

How does BP Kaia know anything about Dean?  She's a dreamwalker not a mind reader.  Since she presumably came from a mostly unpopulated world how would she have insight into other humans?  Especially ones from completely different life experience.

The only answer I have is that Michael and Kaia had further interaction after she stabbed him.  That maybe Michael transferred some kind of info to her? Otherwise.....I got nuthin.

20 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

When she says, "I saw what you did. When you got angry, you shoved your gun in her [original Kaia's] face", followed by a flashback to that scene, there is no indication, either in what she or anyone else says, or in the flashback itself, that Dean had just found out that his mother was in danger. What we are clearly shown is someone who is being a bully, both to original Kaia and this Kaia.   She immediately follows this by saying,  "You're scared. And you're weak." There is no sympathy or understanding in her face, unless the actress is doing a really bad job; what really comes across is contempt. If his fear "is not a sign of weakness", why does she call him weak? She doesn't even hint that the fear behind his anger is not for himself or that it comes from his desire to save people -- she says that it comes from him being weak. She is insulting him.

This is what really irritated me about the use of that particular flashback. There is no context to Dean's behavior back then. I don't know if that was a writing choice or an editing choice but either way it ended up in the final cut minus the context which IMO changes the context in total and ends up IMO with the implication that Dean is just a bully. 

[Myrelle]

13 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Anyway, if Kaia was really just attempting to help Dean out by sharing her great wisdom and insight into who he is (because she is just so awesome that she already understands him better than he knows himself, I suppose), then I guess Berens didn't know this. He stated that Kaia said what she said only because she has a grudge against Dean and was trying to get under his skin. I agree with this; I just disagree that the audience was supposed to see her words as totally unjustified, based on the way the episode was written.

When she says, "I saw what you did. When you got angry, you shoved your gun in her [original Kaia's] face", followed by a flashback to that scene, there is no indication, either in what she or anyone else says, or in the flashback itself, that Dean had just found out that his mother was in danger. What we are clearly shown is someone who is being a bully, both to original Kaia and this Kaia.   She immediately follows this by saying,  "You're scared. And you're weak." There is no sympathy or understanding in her face, unless the actress is doing a really bad job; what really comes across is contempt. If his fear "is not a sign of weakness", why does she call him weak? She doesn't even hint that the fear behind his anger is not for himself or that comes from his desire to save people -- she says that it comes from him being weak. She is insulting him.

Of course, if someone thinks that Dean as a character is weak and pathetic and a bully, then perhaps they would see Kaia's words as a useful insight. However I don't agree that he is. I would love to see Kaia have to eat her words, but it is obvious to me that she is a Mary Sue, and so I doubt she will ever will have to. For this type of character, the other characters will always be used to make her look good, not the other way around.

IA with all of this.

The problem was with the presentation if what Berens said is his truth. 

It did not come across that way at all.

It came across as Kaia schooling Dean on what a shitty human being he really is because he's scared and fearful and it was the same kind of presentation of the same type of message that we got from Sam in The Purge and it's getting really old that these writers feel that they can just throw this shit out there and then just forget about it as if it never even happened to Dean. Really old. And they need to be called out on it big-time, IMO.

[AwesomO4000]

38 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

He needs those type of words now (and has in the past also when they were denied him by anyone and everyone including and starting with dear old dad all those many years ago) just as much as Jack or Sam or Bobby or Mary or Cas has ever needed them and HE was the one providing them more often than not.

Taking this to the Sam "Bitch versus Jerk"*** thread, since my response doesn't have to do with this episode.

*** Changed my mind, because some writers and / showrunners I think see Sam differently than I do, and in case that can be interpreted as complaining on my part, I'm safer in that thread.

Edited October 30, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

We don't really know what Kaia is yet, but I didn't think what she said to Dean was that awful.  It sounded bad at first, but she basically just told him what he already knows, but doesn't admit to himself.  And his fear is not a sign of weakness.  He's not afraid for himself.  He's afraid for those he cares about.  Afraid that he won't be able to save them.  That's exactly who he is, so why would Sam deny that?  Kaia was just giving Dean some insight into himself, she wasn't just insulting him for the sake of insult.

I think she told him he is basically a piece of garbage and always has been. She pretty much said so, that he was like Michael/monsters and always has been. And by the out of context flashback and noone refuting, it was author's commentary.

She also didn't connect "you are afraid" to a sympathetic or selfless reason but to weakness. In her assessment, Dean is a bully- who unlike Sam and Jody deserves to die because she came back for them - whose bullyness comes from being weak and afraid deep down, like all bullies. That describes the epitome of a weak loser.

I'm sure Dean took this great insight to heart since he is beating himself up for being too weak to stand up to Michael. And noone will ever tell him otherwise because the writers agree he is weak. Dabb loves weak Dean who easily breaks and Berens thinks even less of the character. 

Kaia was basically the new Misery of this episode. I'd happily see her become monster chow. 

.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

She also didn't connect "you are afraid" to a sympathetic or selfless reason but to weakness. In her assessment, Dean is a bully- who unlike Sam and Jody deserves to die because she came back for them - whose bullyness comes from being weak and afraid deep down, like all bullies. That describes the epitome of a weak loser.

I admit, I watched most of this episode while shoulders-up-around-my-ears cringing, but I honestly thought when TMNS said she 'came back for them', she meant she came back to kill the monsters that were after her. Holy crap, if she meant she came back to save Sam and Jody and would've happily let Dean die? Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck you, Berens.

[ILoveReading]

46 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I admit, I watched most of this episode while shoulders-up-around-my-ears cringing, but I honestly thought when TMNS said she 'came back for them', she meant she came back to kill the monsters that were after her. Holy crap, if she meant she came back to save Sam and Jody and would've happily let Dean die? Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck you, Berens.

I saw the scene the same way you did.  But now I need to go back and rewatch it.

ETA- On rewatch it does seem like she meant the monsters.  Because its Jody who mentions she came back, and she says for them.  That doesnt' make sense if she meant Jody and Sam.

If TMNS is so awesome that she can take out arch angels, monsters and hunters, why could she untie herself from the ropes?  Why didn't Sam offer her protection?

Why didn't Sam stomp his foot and tell boo?

Edited October 30, 2018 by ILoveReading

[tessathereaper]

On 10/26/2018 at 11:30 AM, catrox14 said:

I legit LOL'd at Evil!Kaia's whole spinning the staff and posing at the end of that fight. LOL

 I mean yes Michael!Dean popped back to a fighting stance because it's a fighting stance and he was prepping for the next move. But Evil!Kaia's was such an obvious...OH LOOK AT ME being a badass.  It's doesn't look right in this show.  It would be fine in a superhero show like Arrow or Supergirl....but no...not here. 

But she didn't even look good at it.  Seriously we couldn't even see much of her face and it was like you could see her counting the steps.  She's not a convincing badass at all.

[MysteryGuest]

Kaia has access to original Kaia's head space, so she also has her interactions with Dean to pull from.  But regardless, even if her intent was to piss him off, which considering she thinks she's fighting for her life, isn't all that surprising, again, so what?  She hit the nail on the head with her comments, as evidenced by his facial expression.  Dean may very well think all of these bad things about himself.  He has for years.  But that doesn't mean that we think those things about him, or that his loved ones think that way about him.  I think it would have been stupid if Sam spoke up to Kaia and said "you're wrong, Dean is not afraid".  But just because he didn't, doesn't mean that he agrees with her.  

But Sam does know Dean's weaknesses, just like Dean knows Sam's.  And Dean's weakness is family.  He would lay down his life for any of them without batting an eye.  That ever present concern may make him act like a dick on occasion, but it makes him anything but a dick in reality.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think it would have been stupid if Sam spoke up to Kaia and said "you're wrong, Dean is not afraid".  But just because he didn't, doesn't mean that he agrees with her.  

He could have said that Dean isn`t weak nor a violent thug. He could have recontextualized the flashback moment where Dean put a gun to other Kaia`s head. Or he could have said it to Dean later in the car when Dean himself echoed how weak he is. Being called "weak" to me does remain the worst insult and, Berens can say what he wants, the episode played it as we should all nodd along to Kaia`s wise words, so this especially rankled. 

If her claims that Dean is just as bad as Michael, is a violent bully and thus really have a weak character weren`t meant to be taken as dishing out "hard truths", then it was really incompetently written and directed as well as edited. The Kaia scene in the previouslies as well as the flahbacks provided no context and were thus specifically singled out for the "you always have been a bully" purpose. Coupled with his willingness to torture her now that lend validity to all her claims about him. As did his reaction to it.

She never said his weakness was fear for others, nor did she even imply it. She said he was afraid and weak. That is how all bullies are eventually unmasked and exposed in stories. Their own weakness leads them to bully others. This is not rooted in something positive or sympathetic. And neither was the message conveyed about Dean in the episode.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Aeryn13