S14.E01: Stranger In a Strange Land

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Oh and another thing. Did anyone else's first set of commercials lead in with Sam asking Nick "Where's Michael?" and then showing a commercial for the new Halloween movie? And then AFTER the break, doing this whole drawn-out reveal that Nick was still alive? Like wow way to ruin the surprise! I honestly thought they screwed up and meant to place that commercial during the 2nd set.

Yes, I wonder if they intended to air that ad lead in after the Lucifer/Nick reveal and someone screwed up.  It was stupid.

[General Days]

17 hours ago, Katy M said:

OK, I'm going to say something and then duck down really quick so I don't get hit by all the rocks that are about that to be thrown at me.

I think we have all agreed that it makes no sense for Nick to be alive.  So, I think I would prefer it to be Lucifer.  (dodges first rock).  What if Michael and Lucifer planned all this (whatever this is) from the start.  Lucifer taking off with Jack and Sam so that Dean would say yes to Michael.  Then, Michael pretending to kill Lucifer.  He didn't have an actual angel blade.  Lucifer pretending to be Nick for whatever this grand plan that Michael has going on, he needs Lucifer on the inside.  

I know what you're thinking.  Shouldn't Cas be able to tell whether that's Lucifer or not.  Well, of course he should.  But, he should also be able to detect an entire room of demons.  So, there's that.  Or, we could go with what is going to get a huge barrage of rocks thrown at me.  Probably a catapult will be used.  Cas could be in on it to.  OK, I'm hitting my fall out shelter.

 

The Pellegrino character seemed to be having some of Nick's memories. It's not above SPN to employ misdirection (nor to overuse it), but since that was going on in his head, I feel like it should have been there to show us it was really Nick.

I think someone else already said what I'm about to say. I must have forgotten to quote it, but on the plus side, I also forgot my rocks. I think Nick lives (and sure, there could be some Lucifer in there, who may re-emerge, which I'd rather not deal with) so that they have an out to kill off Michael without killing off Dean. 

 

16 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

I sort of half-watched the premiere, after seasons of being on a hiatus, and as I was reading your comment I was reminded of just how long the show has been on and what a mess so many of the seasons have been. The same things about not caring about canon were said about Kripke, Gamble, Carver, while the same things have been said about the show doing a terrible job with Cas and angel lore since...probably season 5.

I used to be so passionately invested in the show but maybe I was better off checking out. It's a shame, because I really do love watching Jensen and Misha and Jared. 

 

I still don't care for the season three premiere, "The Magnificent Seven" and that was Kripke's. I dislike it more than I disliked last night's episode, which I thought was okay.

For me, last night was disconcerting, because Sam and Dean never interacted at all, and Michael was kept separate from any characters we care about, but I found it interesting. It makes me want to see where it goes. Michael's quest for purity put me in mind of Uriel. Little about this show's latter use of angels usually brings me back to their introduction, but this did.

 

16 hours ago, Lemuria said:

 Why would the demons even remotely consider Sam for king of Hell. Sam doesn’t have any powers anymore. If he actually ended up in Hell, he’d be more of a chew toy than anything else.  In fact, if he hadn’t gotten lucky, Sam would’ve been killed in that fight. 

 I wasn’t impressed with Sam the Leader. He made a bad decision to bring Jack and Maggie (is that her name?). He seems to have his ego on display:  what’s with the “yessir” and “Chief?” ( I don’t ever see Mr. Bossy and You Suffocate Everyone Else Dean letting people call him that.)  He seemed to accept all that demonic brown-nosing without so much as an eye roll.  And he appeared to really think he gets to dictate to Hell. 

And why was he sending the bunkerites out on hunts?  What was more important than tracking Michael?  Not just for Dean but because Michael is the biggest threat around to Earth. Instead of using everyone, let’s just have four people looking for him, right?  

Instead, Sam apparently just prefers to give up after only three weeks. The writers learned nothing from season 8, IMO. 

 

Did they consider Sam for King of Hell? I might have missed something.

I think they were just afraid of him, because of the Winchesters'  reputation and because he managed to kill off the guy they thought was strong enough to be their king.

Canonically, most of the cut and paste demons on this show are followers. They're not loyal, but they're not leaders. Also, once Kip was gone, the remaining demons were out-manned by people who know how to fight demons, know how to exorcise, and have a demon-killing knife and an angel blade. Also, what demon brown-nosing?

If there's a pack of vampires headed toward the bunker (or its vicinity) how could he not have people track them? 

When did Sam give up? After they got back from battling Kip and saving Cas, Sam was on the phone telling Ketch, "I don't care. Just keep looking" (for the magic egg). He told Cas, "If it meant finding Dean, I'd do anything."  Similarly Cas told Jack they're going to find Dean and beat Michael. 

I think Sam's last scene was that call from Sister Jo, right? (I wish they gave her another name; it's not like this show has been overrun with female characters who lasted more than an episode). Did I miss the giving up? 

 

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't really get why Michael wouldn't have gone right back to the bunker to make sure to kill them all before conquering the world, other than maybe Dean fighting him in some effective way. 

 

I think you've hit on your own answer. I suspect that the more involved Michael is with Dean's people, the more of a chance Dean will have to evict him, because of the way Dean loves his people. That would be his strength -- what would/could/might empower him to expel Michael.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, General Days said:

I think Nick lives (and sure, there could be some Lucifer in there, who may re-emerge, which I'd rather not deal with) so that they have an out to kill off Michael without killing off Dean. 

HOw did I miss that?

[General Days]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

HOw did I miss that?

It was the only way I could make sense of it when I was watching. 

That solution creates another (lesser) problem though. 

Didn't Michael kill Gabriel with the archangel blade? Was Gabe's death supposed to be definitive?

That is, did any of the writers or Richard Speight Jr. ever address it? They showed his wings after death, which is usually an angel-death confirmation, but it makes me wonder what the deal is with Gabriel's host. Is he stuck in Apocalypse World? 

I found the earlier mention in this thread, though:

13 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Haven't been around in a while, but I love Supernatural!

My thought on this episode agrees with you all, it sucked!

But I believe the reason Nick is back is because they are setting it up to save Dean. Sam will stab Michael with the blade, and Dean will live as Michael dies.

Nice to be back!

Edited October 12, 2018 by General Days

[ZennyKenny]

Day after thoughts:

My family an I re-watched the first 5 seasons to fill the gap until this season premiere. I almost wish we hadn't, because seeing what a badass Cas was back then only served to highlight how intentionally useless they write his character these days. This is one of those times when I say "I HATED Cas in this episode" and I don't mean Cas himself, but how he was written.

Also TBH the more I think about it, the more I view the plot-point of an archangel looking at a vampire and deciding that they are worthy of being saved as a real "jump-the-shark" moment. I honestly just so in awe (in a bad way) that all the people looked at that and said "yes, this is a good idea". It's the EXACT POLAR OPPOSITE of how an archangel would view a vampire.

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, General Days said:

That is, did any of the writers or Richard Speight Jr. ever address it? They showed his wings after death, which is usually an angel-death confirmation, but it makes me wonder what the deal is with Gabriel's host. Is he stuck in Apocalypse World? 

They showed Gabriel's wings in the AU and we are meant to think he's dead.

However, with this retcon I think it's certain that Gabriel's meatsuit will be alive ...for reasons.

Assuming Lucifer is really most sincerely 100% even for Supernatural dead and in the Empty unable to get out, then and this is not from any spoilers here, I am 100% convinced the only reason Sam has for not dismembering, salting, burning, draining what's left of any of Lucifer's grace and putting it somewhere safe and then burying and getting a spell from Rowena to completely once and for all obliterate the Nicksuit, is to use him to be the vessel for either OG Michael who is still in the Cage, or AU Michael.  He has no other reason for not doing so. I mean even if Sam thinks he can get into Lucifer's memories via the Nicksuit, that's not going to solve the question of where is Michael!Dean...like at all, unless there is some other plan that Michael and Lucifer hatched together that Sam is trying to get to.

And considering the rules still say a vessel must give consent then Sam has to convince Nick into saying yes or...maybe in desperation he tricks him into saying yes. 

If it turns out that he's actually Lucifer hiding in the Nicksuit still, then I'm sorry to say Sam will deserve whatever shit storm comes of it.

Edited October 12, 2018 by catrox14

[Ninamags]

1 hour ago, ZennyKenny said:

SRSLY! I was so excited when they used my favorite Halestorm song for the premiere... last season, was it? And I was joking earlier yesterday saying "watch it be another AC/DC song lol" And then it started playing and I was like "Sonuvabitch!"

Oh and another thing. Did anyone else's first set of commercials lead in with Sam asking Nick "Where's Michael?" and then showing a commercial for the new Halloween movie? And then AFTER the break, doing this whole drawn-out reveal that Nick was still alive? Like wow way to ruin the surprise! I honestly thought they screwed up and meant to place that commercial during the 2nd set. 

I thought the exact same thing!!! I yelled "spoilers!!!!" at my  tv. What a bunch of dumbasses. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Also TBH the more I think about it, the more I view the plot-point of an archangel looking at a vampire and deciding that they are worthy of being saved as a real "jump-the-shark" moment. I honestly just so in awe (in a bad way) that all the people looked at that and said "yes, this is a good idea". It's the EXACT POLAR OPPOSITE of how an archangel would view a vampire.

I saw a reaction video where in the reactor thought it was a Leviathan...and honestly I wish it were. Because THAT would make sense that Michael seeks Leviathan who do eat people.  They would be a far more powerful ally than vampires.  

Hell, for that matter, why doesn't Michael find out how to get into Purgatory and bring back ALL the monsters.  I know it would be a rehash of that plot line but it sure would make a lot more sense for him to do that just vampires. 

And holy moly, just imagine a Michael!Dean/Dick Roman alliance! They would be almost unstoppable. Until of course, Sam yells at them to stop and they run away LOL (I am going to snark on that for a very long time, because it was stoopid).

[General Days]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They showed Gabriel's wings in the AU and we are meant to think he's dead.

 

Right. I'm asking has there been any external confirmation of that. Should I ask in another thread?

Quote

 

However, with this retcon I think it's certain that Gabriel's meatsuit will be alive ...for reasons.

Assuming Lucifer is really most sincerely 100% even for Supernatural dead and in the Empty unable to get out, then and this is not from any spoilers here, I am 100% convinced the only reason Sam has for not dismembering, salting, burning, draining what's left of any of Lucifer's grace and putting it somewhere safe and then burying and getting a spell from Rowena to completely once and for all obliterate the Nicksuit, is to use him to be the vessel for either OG Michael who is still in the Cage, or AU Michael.  He has no other reason for not doing so. I mean even if Sam thinks he can get into Lucifer's memories that's not going to solve the question of where is Michael!Dean...like at all.  Unless there is some other plan that Michael and Lucifer hatched together that Sam is trying to get to.

And considering the rules still say a vessel must give consent then Sam has to convince Nick into saying yes or...maybe in desperation he tricks him into saying yes. 

If it turns out that he's actually Lucifer hiding in the Nicksuit still, then I'm sorry to say Sam will deserve whatever shit storm comes of it.

 

But Nick wasn't dead (speculation aside I mean this as far as we and Sam can tell), right?

I'm not following you. I know it would be tempting to kill Nick, but I can't see them killing the suit Lucifer used. I particularly can't see Sam doing it. since he's previously been possessed by both Lucifer and Gadreel. 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

And holy moly, just imagine a Michael!Dean/Dick Roman alliance! They would be almost unstoppable. Until of course, Sam yells at them to stop and they run away LOL (I am going to snark on that for a very long time, because it was stoopid).

Dick Roman is living in Port Charles with young John Winchester. Well, not with-with, but you know. 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, General Days said:

Right. I'm asking has there been any external confirmation of that. Should I ask in another thread?

I personally have not seen any kind of formal confirmation but even if they did, I would assume TPTB are lying because they lie all the time.  My point is more that going by what has been the canon is that burned up angel wings are supposed to mean an angel is really dead and should be in the Empty as happened with Cas. Cas was put back because he annoyed the Empty Keeper.  I don't know if I answered your question exactly as you were seeking, but that's my take.

[ZennyKenny]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I saw a reaction video where in the reactor thought it was a Leviathan...and honestly I wish it were. Because THAT would make sense that Michael seeks Leviathan who do eat people.  They would be a far more powerful ally than vampires.  

I figured he was just looking to destroy the planet except for a handful of chosen "worthy to be saved" people. but if his plan is to team up, if that's what being "saved" actually means, then yeah it makes no sense. What could a vampire do that Michael couldn't do 100x more efficiently? 

[tennisgurl]

You know, having just marathoned through quite a bit of this show over the hiatus, I hope I am not the first one to say that "To be fair, we all got punched in the face." is basically the shows tagline. And by "we", I am mean both the characters, and the audience. 

[ZennyKenny]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And holy moly, just imagine a Michael!Dean/Dick Roman alliance! They would be almost unstoppable. Until of course, Sam yells at them to stop and they run away LOL (I am going to snark on that for a very long time, because it was stoopid).

I kinda get where you're coming from as far as them really laying on thick that the demons are afraid of Sam. But also I can understand why. Sam was the only one present, but I'm sure Kip meant that the demons were scared of both Winchesters, and he would have said as much were they to have both been present. They've been dropping hints of the Winchesters' increasing intimidation factor over the years. Crowley's rant about him being the only one who doesn't over-estimate them, Dick Roman's IMMEDIATELY wanting them out of the picture as soon as they landed topside. There's probably more that I'm not thinking of.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, General Days said:

But Nick wasn't dead (speculation aside I mean this as far as we and Sam can tell), right?

I'm not following you. I know it would be tempting to kill Nick, but I can't see them killing the suit Lucifer used. I particularly can't see Sam doing it. since he's previously been possessed by both Lucifer and Gadreel.

Nick was really most sincerely dead in s5.  Crowley scavenged the Nicksuit and warded it with the runes etc from the Cage to keep Lucifer in his own meatsuit prison in s12 for all eternity.  Nick wasn't resurrected and alive in the Nicksuit. He was dead, dead, dead. There should be no memories in Nick's dead brain to access. Lucifer was the only entity in that Nicksuit and no other entity should be able to go inside so maybe that's the only way we get out of a potential Pellegrino Michael. 

What I don't remember is if Sam and/or Dean learned what Crowley did by the end of 12.22.  I remember Dean punching Crowley and asking him if he let him out of the Cage but I don't know if they knew the details.
 

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

"To be fair, we all got punched in the face."

I think you are the first one to say it here, but I certainly thought that LOL

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

What could a vampire do that Michael couldn't do 100x more efficiently? 

Thinking to s13, Michael had a lot of minions doing his work for him, like Zachariah.  So I think he wants to hold sway and have others work for him.  I only remember him directly dealing with who he considered a VIP like AU Kevin, Mary, and then Jack.  So his focus is IMO building his "management team" and then having them do the rest of the work.  That's just my perception.

*** and Lucifer since he had already killed AU Lucifer.

Edited October 12, 2018 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I saw a reaction video where in the reactor thought it was a Leviathan...and honestly I wish it were. Because THAT would make sense that Michael seeks Leviathan who do eat people.  They would be a far more powerful ally than vampires.

[snip] ...And holy moly, just imagine a Michael!Dean/Dick Roman alliance! They would be almost unstoppable.

As much as I would love to see Dick Roman again, I don't think he would be enough of a follower for Michael. If Michael were going to resurrect Leviathans, I suspect he would do so without Dick Roman.

Also the Leviathan were Death's thing. He was the one who was fond of / amused by them, but then again Death was fairly powerful (except for that one Achilles' heel problem of being killed with his own scythe). Michael is also powerful, but leviathans might still be a bit higher up on the food chain than he might want. Unlike with vampires, regular angels seemed to have difficulties with leviathan. Leviathans even took over angels - and one said "leviathan beats angel" - when they stole Kevin. Of course, Michael being an archangel, he's more powerful than regular angels, but still...

42 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I figured he was just looking to destroy the planet except for a handful of chosen "worthy to be saved" people.

That's what I think also... except for some reason, Michael thinks that vampires are those "people." Or he at least thinks that they are the beings most likely to serve his purpose at present.

Lucifer was content to roam around the earth alone and smelling the flowers while everyone else got killed off (because that would be a big F-U to God,) but I think Michael wants someone to rule over. That Michael decided that that "someone" is vampires - a creation of Eve's rather than Chuck's - is unusual, but maybe Michael is pissed off at God, too, and this is his way of showing it. And I'm still wondering if the immortality thing has something to do with it. It would be easier to have followers that theoretically didn't die - unless you wanted to kill them for disobedience that is - because then you'd only have to "recruit" them once.

With monsters where their offspring's creation couldn't be controlled or with people, there would constantly be new people / beings who had to be convinced into following. I imagine Michael might find that tedious. Convince a vampire once and you're theoretically done, and that being will last forever with no need to replace him / her. But since they can also be easily killed if need be, they're also theoretically easy to keep in line. Leviathans I'm not so sure about. I think they might be tougher to kill individually. They also might not want to follow someone who is not their own kind. (Leviathans seemed rather snobbish about their heritage and superiority).

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Thinking to s13, Michael had a lot of minions doing his work for him, like Zachariah.  So I think he wants to hold sway and have others work for him.  I only remember him directly dealing with who he considered a VIP like AU Kevin, Mary, and then Jack.  So his focus is IMO building his "management team" and then having them do the rest of the work.  That's just my perception.

I agree. I think I came to a similar conclusion over in one of the spoilers threads. I said that just because Michael is powerful and could do it himself, he might still find it "beneath him." Even regular world Michael generally had Zachariah and other angels do his dirty work and only got directly involved in "emergency" situations (like "The Song Remains the Same"). But even then he had problems with regular angels getting their own ideas and a bunch of them had to be killed off or kept busy with "busy work."

I could see Michael thinking that vampires would be a good "minion" army. Immortal, but also easily dispatched if they displease him. Easy to "reward" (i.e. manipulate). And unlikely to - and most importantly: unable to - challenge him.

Edited October 12, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[FlickChick]

17 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That is the same reasoning for Sam not looking for Dean in S8. He didn't know where to look, assumed he was dead and gave up. This time it only took three weeks.

It seems like being the leader of a bunker full of flunkies is this season's equivalent of a vet and a dog.

I absolutely cannot express how much I love this post!!! You go, girl!!!

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As much as I would love to see Dick Roman again, I don't think he would be enough of a follower for Michael. If Michael were going to resurrect Leviathans, I suspect he would do so without Dick Roman.

Also the Leviathan were Death's thing. He was the one who was fond of / amused by them, but then again Death was fairly powerful (except for that one Achilles' heel problem of being killed with his own scythe). Michael is also powerful, but leviathans might still be a bit higher up on the food chain than he might want. Unlike with vampires, regular angels seemed to have difficulties with leviathan. One of the leviathans even took over an angel - and said "leviathan beats angel" - when they stole Kevin. Of course, Michael being an archangel, he's more powerful than regular angels, but still...

I don't think Michael only wants followers with no minds though. Not after what happened in his other world. *** I think he is seeking at least a V.P. for lack of a better word.  And thus far he doesn't seem entirely stupid so maybe Dick would be willing to be a V.P. to an archangel if they have the same goal of destroying the world or remaking it.

*** He admitted to Dean he made mistakes.  Now what he considers mistakes is up for debate I suppose, but I don't think he's after a complete scorched earth like in the AW.  

Edited October 12, 2018 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

And thus far he doesn't seem entirely stupid so maybe Dick would be willing to be a V.P. to an archangel if they have the same goal of destroying the world or remaking it.

Interesting thought. I don't know what Dick Roman's opinion of angels would be, however. He was extremely unimpressed with Crowley and the demons and wasn't shy about saying so... though maybe he also learned something from that, too, considering how it ended up biting him in the ass later. ; )

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Interesting thought. I don't know what Dick Roman's opinion of angels would be, however. He was extremely unimpressed with Crowley and the demons and wasn't shy about saying so... though maybe he also learned something from that, too, considering how it ended up biting him in the ass later. ; )

I think he though demons were scum, I don't know if he would think an archangel is scum as much as he would see the value in them. I don't think he saw the value of demons.   And if both Dick and Michael!Dean are arrogant bastards they would be a suited match, until one betrays the other and then takes him out to be the ultimate victor.  Damn, I feel a fanfic percolating.

[AwesomO4000]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Damn, I feel a fanfic percolating.

I'd read it!

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Nick was really most sincerely dead in s5.  Crowley scavenged the Nicksuit and warded it with the runes etc from the Cage to keep Lucifer in his own meatsuit prison in s12 for all eternity.  Nick wasn't resurrected and alive in the Nicksuit. He was dead, dead, dead. There should be no memories in Nick's dead brain to access. Lucifer was the only entity in that Nicksuit and no other entity should be able to go inside so maybe that's the only way we get out of a potential Pellegrino Michael. 

What I don't remember is if Sam and/or Dean learned what Crowley did by the end of 12.22.  I remember Dean punching Crowley and asking him if he let him out of the Cage but I don't know if they knew the details.

You know, that's a really good point. I mean at least with Cas, the show attempted to explain how the hell Cas kept coming back by saying "God did it". so what, are we to believe that God brought Nick (& possibly Lucifer) back?

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Thinking to s13, Michael had a lot of minions doing his work for him, like Zachariah.  So I think he wants to hold sway and have others work for him.  I only remember him directly dealing with who he considered a VIP like AU Kevin, Mary, and then Jack.  So his focus is IMO building his "management team" and then having them do the rest of the work.  That's just my perception.

*** and Lucifer since he had already killed AU Lucifer.

Oh yeah, that's true. He's got that "I don't want to get my own hands dirty unless I absolutely have to" feel about him.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

You know, that's a really good point. I mean at least with Cas, the show attempted to explain how the hell Cas kept coming back by saying "God did it". so what, are we to believe that God brought Nick (& possibly Lucifer) back?

That's a continuity fail at this point because the Empty Keeper said he is the only person who can release someone from the Empty and that God has no power there.  So either it's true or it's not and if God could bring back Cas in s4 then they altered the canon for this. If God has power then the Empty Keeper isn't more powerful and his realm isn't his own and that would be really boring IMO.

I can headcanon that maybe God intervened before Cas was really most 100% really dead and stopped him from getting to the Empty and that would be how Lucifer could get out unless he annoys the Empty Keeper as well.  Or he's not dead and he's still stuck in his Nicksuit.

[Miles]

I love the guy, but man Jensen Ackles does not have the range to pull off Michael. It just doesn't work.

 

Also why/how did Jack get nerfed and where is Charlie? I don't seem to remember much about last seasons finale.

 

21 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Nick didn't just die, for all intents and purposes he disintegrated. Crowley remade the meatsuit - so there is no way he should have any of Nick's memories. It's ridiculous.

He should just be dead. Just how Cas's vessel is. The meatsuit was remade in both cases, but there was never an actual soul inside.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Miles

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Michael only wants followers with no minds though. Not after what happened in his other world. *** I think he is seeking at least a V.P. for lack of a better word.  And thus far he doesn't seem entirely stupid so maybe Dick would be willing to be a V.P. to an archangel if they have the same goal of destroying the world or remaking it.

Hey, he's got Dean's memories and a thing for vampires....  You see where I'm going with this? }-)

Heheh, I'd actually root for Benny to come back if I didn't 100% believe Dabb would destroy the character.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Hey, he's got Dean's memories and a thing for vampires....  You see where I'm going with this? }-)

Heheh, I'd actually root for Benny to come back if I didn't 100% believe Dabb would destroy the character.

That would be a good reason for him to open up the portal to Purgatory.   I keep forgetting about Benny.  Bad me :(

15 minutes ago, Miles said:

Also why/how did Jack get nerfed and where is Charlie? I don't seem to remember much about last seasons finale

Lucifer ripped out Jacks' grace and took it for himself and took off with Jack.   Charlie is off with Rowena. 

[tennisgurl]

I thought all of the stuff with Michael was really good, and holy crap Jenson is killing it, He really seems like a totally different person, its rather disconcerting. My first big problem with the episode? Not enough of him! 

I mean, Sam telling the demon pretender to kindly fuck off was pretty cool, but...really? Thats it? All Sam needs to do now is pretty much wag his finger at demons to get them to go away? Wow, that would have been nice to have known several seasons ago! 

That bar fight scene was embarrassing. Not only does Cas get stuck looking like a chump who cant take out a few lousy demons, but that slow mo was so ridiculous, I almost full on giggled. I guess they wanted Mary to look awesome? Because, not really a huge fan. 

Having the AU people around just gives me horrible flashbacks to the last few seasons of Once Upon a Time, or the most recent season of Arrow. Lets not go down THAT rabbit hole again, please and thank you!

Really, I think the show would be better off if we took a break from the demons and angels and heaven and hell stuff, and brought in a new Big Bad. I know that its hard to ignore all the heaven and hell stuff, as its such a big part of the mythology now, but I think we could avoid the monotony of hell kings and crazy angels and possessions left and right if we had something really different. I know there have been a few other Big Bads, but I think it would be cool if they brought back some evil fairies from the parallel faerie world, or some new monsters with their eye on more power now that heaven and hell are a mess, or even the government trying to get involved, like a better version of the 5th season of Buffy. 

[SueB]

Watched the iTunes version.  Seems that Sam/Nick snippet was truly part of the commercial as it's not in the iTunes.  It was a show nonsequitor but I thought I'd check anyway.

[Zipper]

Uff. I won't repeat all the disappointment noted above, but I felt it all. Two serious issues for me are: (1) I do not want Nick back, and while I appreciate that MP is a fine actor, I am so very, very done with his Lucifer-- it makes me sputter to consider that possible return; and (2) when Mary is talking with Sam in the car and says she knows Dean is out there SCARED and alone, I started yelling at the TV. Does she know her son at all? He's not scared, he's pissed. Maybe spooked that he's three weeks in without a sense of how to exercise any power, but Dean Freaking Winchester is not some puddle of afraid while Micheal takes him for a round-the-world stroll.  No way, lady.

The other stuff, like the treatment of Cas, all bugged, but those two things really stuck in my craw.

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, SueB said:

Watched the iTunes version.  Seems that Sam/Nick snippet was truly part of the commercial as it's not in the iTunes.  It was a show nonsequitor but I thought I'd check anyway.

So an ad spoiled a big reveal. I hope that ad rate was worth it. 

11 minutes ago, Zipper said:

Sam in the car and says she knows Dean is out there SCARED and alone, I started yelling at the TV. Does she know her son at all? He's not scared, he's pissed.

This was exactly my thought. I was like, "No, bitch. He's not alone and scared.  He's probably in there fighting like hell, and probably feeling guilty.  He is also probably fully expecting to learn ALL the ways Sam was looking for him this time".

Here's a question for everyone

Michael seems to have access to all kinds of info and knowledge over space and time.  Do you think he's showing Dean all of this, too? That he's showing Dean exactly what is happening back at the bunker. That maybe Dean knows just how much or how little the family seems to be invested in finding him, beyond lip service.  That he knows Sam went to Georgia on a lead?

[S Cook Productions]

7 hours ago, Jakes said:

I mostly agree with all of this :)

[Commando Cody]

Kip?

[OtterMommy]

Please remember that this thread is to discuss this particular episode.  Discussion of other episodes and/or topics, including BvJ, should be moved to the appropriate thread.  Thanks!

[catrox14]

On 10/11/2018 at 6:08 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Oh yes, and further to a discussion from earlier - Dabb, proving once again that he doesn't give one single fuck about canon, forgot that Cas had the magic egg at the end of LOTUS. So much so in fact, that he had Sam EXPLAIN to Cas what it was.

Upon further review  Cas was standing there with Sam and Dean when Ketch showed him the magic egg in the trunk of his car when he first showed up, and Ketch literally said what it was just like Sam did for all the exposition. I hate when the show treats us like we are stupid and worse, treats Cas like he's stupid. It's insulting.

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Upon further review  Cas was standing there with Sam and Dean when Ketch showed him the magic egg in the trunk of his car when he first showed up, and Ketch literally said what it was just like Sam did for all the exposition. I hate when the show treats us like we are stupid and worse, treats Cas like he's stupid. It's insulting.

This doesn't bother me at all. They had to remind the audience of what they were talking about.  

[connieinnc]

I am confused as to why some here (too lazy to go back and quote) are complaining about canon being ruined by the Nick meatsuit being alive after Lucifer being killed with the Archangel blade. The concept of the Archangel blade is new from last season, versus the Angel blade that has been previously used. Therefore, there is no canon yet for the Archangel blade, or am I missing something?

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, connieinnc said:

I am confused as to why some here (too lazy to go back and quote) are complaining about canon being ruined by the Nick meatsuit being alive after Lucifer being killed with the Archangel blade. The concept of the Archangel blade is new from last season, versus the Angel blade that has been previously used. Therefore, there is no canon yet for the Archangel blade, or am I missing something?

There's no other weapon that kills an angel or demon, while still in the host body, that doesn't kill the host.  And, Nick was stabbed with it. Why wouldn't he be dead?  Are you (as in show) trying to tell me that if they took that blade and just stabbed an ordinary person with it that they wouldn't die?  Also, as stated before, Nick died in Season 5, how did his soul get back in his body?

[sigmaforce86]

On 10/11/2018 at 11:49 AM, ILoveReading said:

Is it too early to ask where Jensen's emmy is?

I figure we're asking about 12 years too late.  I'm still pissed he didn't at least get nominated just for that speech by dead Sam's bedside at the end of S2.  No matter how many years it's on, ratings, fans, good seasons and bad seasons a "horror" show like this just isn't going to get any respect from the Emmy's which is a shame.

On 10/11/2018 at 9:30 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

The slo-mo in the demon fight was so lame I thought for a minute Speight was directing again. It really added nothing in a scene that was already so OTT.

Is it just me (and not just for this show) or have the sound effects people on just about every show with fights really ramped up the punch sounds lately?  Every single hit sounds like a very large man with horseshoes in his glove hitting a side of meat and the microphone is actually in the meat.  All it's missing is the Whamp! Bang! Snick! words popping on the screen like a Batman episode.

On 10/11/2018 at 11:27 PM, Lemuria said:

 Why would the demons even remotely consider Sam for king of Hell. Sam doesn’t have any powers anymore. If he actually ended up in Hell, he’d be more of a chew toy than anything else.  In fact, if he hadn’t gotten lucky, Sam would’ve been killed in that fight. 

Could it be because he's Lucifer's perfect vessel the same way Dean is Michael's?  This might be me making excuses but thinking either the demons don't know Lucifer is dead (unlikely) or, more plausible, they think Sam is the vessel for any king of hell so he's untouchable the way he was in Season 4.  Might be where they're going with this or I might be trying to put a square peg in a round plot hole, not sure.

I didn't think it was too bad, I feel like season openers are only slightly less clunky than a new show's premier episode - a lot of time is taken with season plot set up, reminding us what happened before and catching us up to what's happening now.  Sometimes it's done really well but often it feels like a lot of explanation and set up of what's coming while still trying to keep what's coming a secret so the set up tends to not make sense.  Maybe I'm just making excuses but at the moment I didn't hate or love the premier it just sort of "was".  I'd give it at least two more episodes to really see where they're going with this or if they even know where they're going with this.

Nick alive?  Human or Lucifer?  I don't know........but I did notice his bed was on a devil's trap so they're not taking any chances.

I do still, and have for a long time now, miss the basics of the early shows.  This large arcing plots can be good but sometimes I just want to see "Saving people, hunting things" again.  Also on a shallow note can Sam keep his beard for awhile?

[mertensia]

Frankly I don't blame the lesser demons for being afraid of Sam. I would think any monster with any sort of self-preservation instincts would be afraid of Sam and/or Dean. As I said many years ago, I'd be leaving them a nice fruit basket with an apology card if I ran across them.

I'm not surprised that Kip would be angling for King of Hell- realistically it must be a slaughter in Hell right now amongst the demons for power.

I think Michael went with vampires because he can control their desires fairly easily. Humans are too varied. Jo wants things- like respect- that he's unwilling to give. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by mertensia

[DeeDee79]

35 minutes ago, connieinnc said:

The concept of the Archangel blade is new from last season, versus the Angel blade that has been previously used.

The Archangel blade was introduced in Hammer of the Gods in season 5. Kali the Destroyer took the fake blade from Gabriel to use on Lucifer. 

13 minutes ago, mertensia said:

I think Michael went with vampires because he can control their desires fairly easily. Humans are too varied. Jo wants things- like respect- that he's unwilling to give. 

Good point!

[Reganne]

I have to say after last season where the only thing Sam did was get knocked out, I am glad they are showing him as being more competent and kick ass this episode.  I was getting tired of him constantly being knocked out last season. 

With that being said, I do miss Dean already.  Lol.  I know I am in the minority here, but I dont know about the Michael/Dean thing.  I know that I was hesitant about it prior to it happening, and when it did happen I was open to it.  Now I dont think I like it very much because we're losing Dean.  Dont get me wrong, Jensen was great but as it is they need to develop Michael more and maybe they will.  Dean is just much more of an interesting character to me than Michael.  I dont know.  Maybe my opinion will change next week but so far that is how I feel about it.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I know that I was hesitant about it prior to it happening, and when it did happen I was open to it.  Now I dont think I like it very much because we're losing Dean.

I agree. The heart of the show has always been Sam and Dean.  Without Dean, the show just isn't the same.  And if I had to pick a brother to go without, I would pick Sam.  But, I really really really need them both.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

This doesn't bother me at all. They had to remind the audience of what they were talking about.

But they didn't have to do it by making  Cas look stupid or at best sketchy since had it in his hands last.They could have made it just  standard exposition like Sam could have said

"So Ketch is off to to find another hyperbolic pulse generator since the other one burned out when we used it to get Lucifer out of former President Jeff"

Cas: "Ah yes...the "magic egg" as Dean called it "(says with air quotes)

Sam (chuckles )Heh. Yeah. (Pauses and thinks of Dean). Dean loved nicknaming that thing.

Cas : Yeah. I miss him.

Sam : Me, too. (Sam looks sad)

Cas: Sam...I know it's been three weeks but we will save Dean"

Fade out ....

Boom done.

 Exposition given and thoughts of Dean acknowledged easy peasy. . Either way Dabb sold the audience short and made Cas look like an idiot.

 Seems to me Dabb, who wrote the episode, didn't remember that Cas had it or he set up Cas for some other reason. Either way it was bad writing IMO.

Edited October 13, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, connieinnc said:

I am confused as to why some here (too lazy to go back and quote) are complaining about canon being ruined by the Nick meatsuit being alive after Lucifer being killed with the Archangel blade. The concept of the Archangel blade is new from last season, versus the Angel blade that has been previously used. Therefore, there is no canon yet for the Archangel blade, or am I missing something?

Nick was fully dead as of s5. Crowley said so in s12. I made a post about it up thread just a page or so back.

Lucifer was the only occupant of that vessel and he was locked into it. Until they reversed the pokarity which made Crowley look weak and stupid.

The only clugy answer is that Lucifer resurrected Nick's soul out of Hell or Heaven. But he shouldnt be in there as of s12. And he was 100% dead from s5 to s14.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, mertensia said:

Frankly I don't blame the lesser demons for being afraid of Sam. I would think any monster with any sort of self-preservation instincts would be afraid of Sam and/or Dean. As I said many years ago, I'd be leaving them a nice fruit basket with an apology card if I ran across them.

I'm not surprised that Kip would be angling for King of Hell- realistically it must be a slaughter in Hell right now amongst the demons for power.

I think Michael went with vampires because he can control their desires fairly easily. Humans are too varied. Jo wants things- like respect- that he's unwilling to give. 

BINGO.  

On Nick:
I think Nick is immortal because he's partially made of the cage that God made.  I don't think it's that ANY Archangel blade kills ONLY the archangel.  I think that we took that statement from Sam as "truth" but it's just a theory right now.  I think they are wrong.  I think Nick is immortal -- like Mark of Cain immortal -- and functions as a Cage. If they figure this out, they can trap AUMichael in the Nick-cage (HA!... the puns... they write themselves) and then toast the archangel inside.

Sucks to be Nick.  But that's my thought. 

[connieinnc]

Let me try again, since I obviously was unclear in my original question: how is canon for how an Archangel blade works being broken when the only use of a real one was shown at the end of last season? We don't know if Gabriel's meatsuit is alive in the AU. We DO see that Nick is recovering from the sound inflicted on Lucifer, but don't know that a side effect of the blade is to do *some* restoration of the host. Yes, this series uses a lot of handwavian in regards to angels in particular and is inconsistent at best for many issues.

[SueB]

20 minutes ago, connieinnc said:

Let me try again, since I obviously was unclear in my original question: how is canon for how an Archangel blade works being broken when the only use of a real one was shown at the end of last season? We don't know if Gabriel's meatsuit is alive in the AU. We DO see that Nick is recovering from the sound inflicted on Lucifer, but don't know that a side effect of the blade is to do *some* restoration of the host. Yes, this series uses a lot of handwavian in regards to angels in particular and is inconsistent at best for many issues.

I think that's fair.

[ILoveReading]

22 minutes ago, connieinnc said:

Let me try again, since I obviously was unclear in my original question: how is canon for how an Archangel blade works being broken when the only use of a real one was shown at the end of last season? We don't know if Gabriel's meatsuit is alive in the AU. We DO see that Nick is recovering from the sound inflicted on Lucifer, but don't know that a side effect of the blade is to do *some* restoration of the host. Yes, this series uses a lot of handwavian in regards to angels in particular and is inconsistent at best for many issues.

Even if the arch angel blade is new and they can make up whatever lore they want (And I'd argue the arch angel blade itself was a retcon because in Hammer of the Gods

Spoiler

Because both Lucifer and Gabriel fought with regular Angel blades and if they could only be killed with a special one there was zero dialogue to that effect. 

 Nick is dead.  His meat suit is only intact because Crowley dug it up and reinforced to hold Lucifer.  Nick was never back in the picture.   If he was alive Lucifer would have needed permission to repossess Nick's meat suit. The fact that he could just dump Lucifer into it meant the body was just an empty shell Lucifer was possessing. 

So where did Nick's soul come from.  Why would it leave heaven or hell or wherever it was to repossess the body that was just stabbed. 

In other words there should have been no Nick to resurrect. 

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, connieinnc said:

Let me try again, since I obviously was unclear in my original question: how is canon for how an Archangel blade works being broken when the only use of a real one was shown at the end of last season? We don't know if Gabriel's meatsuit is alive in the AU. We DO see that Nick is recovering from the sound inflicted on Lucifer, but don't know that a side effect of the blade is to do *some* restoration of the host. Yes, this series uses a lot of handwavian in regards to angels in particular and is inconsistent at best for many issues.

The whole thing is a series of retcons from S5 to s13.

In s5, there was already a declared Archangel Blade that was used to kill Gabriel  which meant that Gabriel's meatsuit was dead too.   Gabriel's death was retconned away  in s14. 

In s5, Lucifer had already burned through his vessel, the Nicksuit, and Nick was really most sincerely dead at the end of s4.  Crowley scavenged the dead meatsuit to reconstitute as his Lucifer prison. That was revealed in s12. 

Dabb et al, chose to make a new Archangel Blade and sell it as if it the other never existed in s13.

And the New Archangel Blade isn't even the issue for me.  It's that Nick should not have been alive IN the Nicksuit at all.

So the idea from Sam that the s13 Archangel Blade doesn't kill it's vessel is a massive retcon and a bad one at that because it doesn't explain how Nick was alive at all.

[connieinnc]

I completely agree that Nick being alive is completely ridiculous, and there was a now retconned as fake Archangel blade, but those weren't what I was questioning. Thank you all for taking the time to reply though, I very much appreciate it.