S11.E02: The Ghost Monument

[doesntworkonwood]

I loved it! I love Jodie, I really loved the concept of the race, I loved that it was a 'travelling episode', I absolutely adore the new Tardis. The only criticisms I have was that I thought the sonic was used a bit too much and Yaz didn't have as much to do. 

[ganesh]

With a larger companion cast that's going to happen from time to time. 

One thing I like about the new sonic is she's actually reading a screen. 

[libgirl2]

45 minutes ago, ganesh said:

With a larger companion cast that's going to happen from time to time. 

One thing I like about the new sonic is she's actually reading a screen. 

So we will probably get the old stand by.... companion sprains ankle and has to stay behind? I remember that from Tegan, Turlough and Nyssa days. 

[ganesh]

Oh I hope not. I was just saying it's hard to balance all them in only 40 something minutes. 

[Eulipian 5k]

I vaguely remember the "Are you my mummy?" (in gas mask) child episode. Wasn't that the Timeless Child? Or the little girl who regenerated in the alley, who was not(!) River or  Mels: who was she?

[libgirl2]

37 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I vaguely remember the "Are you my mummy?" (in gas mask) child episode. Wasn't that the Timeless Child? Or the little girl who regenerated in the alley, who was not(!) River or  Mels: who was she?

I thought it was established that that was River (Mels)

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

So we will probably get the old stand by.... companion sprains ankle and has to stay behind? I remember that from Tegan, Turlough and Nyssa days. 

I'd say it's more likely that they'll split into pairs in each episode and run parallel sub-plots, which is what always happened with multiple companions further back in the show's history. The 80s just forgot how to handle it because there'd been a run of solo companion years.

And yes, the little girl in the alley was River.

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I'd say it's more likely that they'll split into pairs in each episode and run parallel sub-plots, which is what always happened with multiple companions further back in the show's history. The 80s just forgot how to handle it because there'd been a run of solo companion years.

And yes, the little girl in the alley was River.

I seem to have in my mind something with Zoe back during Doctor 2. We watch a lot of the old episodes often with commentary and I seem to recall this plot being used. I think two companions can work but when you get up to three, it does get harder. 

[Llywela]

6 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I seem to have in my mind something with Zoe back during Doctor 2. We watch a lot of the old episodes often with commentary and I seem to recall this plot being used. I think two companions can work but when you get up to three, it does get harder. 

Oh, not just Zoe. The show started out with three companions and maintained that for the first couple of years, then consistently had at least two throughout the rest of the 60s. The early 70s, of course, was the UNIT era, with multiple recurring characters. Mid-70s when the Doctor started travelling again in earnest, he did so with two companions. It was only really through a run in the late 70s that he travelled with a solo companion and no home base for the first time - then back to two and then three as the 80s kicked off, then back down to two and then just one for the last few years. Whenever there was more than one companion, you could guarantee they would be separated early on and have separate adventures for a while before coming back together - of course, a four-episode serial (equivalent of a modern two-parter in run-time) has a bit more time and space for storytelling than a single episode today. In the longer serials, the character dynamics would mix and match quite a bit within a story.

[Guest]

So does that prize money get split in two? Will there be enough for Angstrom to get ALL her family out and for grumpy guy... to just be grumpy? Wouldn't mind a throwaway reference to their happy ending, especially if they stuck together afterwards.

[Kite]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

So does that prize money get split in two? Will there be enough for Angstrom to get ALL her family out and for grumpy guy... to just be grumpy? Wouldn't mind a throwaway reference to their happy ending, especially if they stuck together afterwards.

Sounds like the prize money was EXTREMELY large, they'll be fine. They won't be stuck together at all, they'll split it and get as far away as possible from each other, Angstrom back to her people, Enzo to be rich and cynical. I kind of liked the abrupt ending, because I thought their (sort of) happy endings were implied, POOF, they're sorted, the end.

The threat to the grandmaster dude just didn't work though. Maybe he could have been written as just a little more swayed by persuasion than he was, tricky when he's also very powerful. I think I would have written it as him being visibly a bit amused by the idea "oh okay fine, have it your way" kind of deal.

I would have liked a throwaway line or two about a vast audience watching, since the whole thing felt like a big famous deal.

The Timeless Child could be...................................................... the Doctor's lost granddaughter Susan, since we already have a grandparent theme going on and themes of family loss, but would Chibnall really go there, delve waaaay back into the show's past in an era where he's looking to the future? I'm really not sure about that, sounds like fans' wishful thinking. (Including mine.)

[Mabinogia]

10 minutes ago, Kite said:

The threat to the grandmaster dude just didn't work though. Maybe he could have been written as just a little more swayed by persuasion than he was, tricky when he's also very powerful. I think I would have written it as him being visibly a bit amused by the idea "oh okay fine, have it your way" kind of deal.

Yeah, I don't quite get how threatening a hologram worked. I mean, grand master could have just left them there to die and never been bothered with them. I think I would have preferred him to be amused like you said. Kind of surprised that no one has ever tried this before and gives it to them for originality or something. Or they needed to make it clear that this time it was the real, flesh and blood grand master sitting there and Enzo's threat actually being something he could ligit make happen. 

[Bruinsfan]

If rather than a threat they'd persuaded him with "think of the publicity/high ratings you'll get by announcing an unprecedented tie with TWO winners!" I think it would have been better and more believable. I mean, his race had no violence/no sabotage rules, so clearly honorable sportsmanship was something he valued for the PR effect if not a dearly-held personal principle. Appeal to that, don't make non-intimidating threats from a position of weakness.

[call me ishmael]

I was thinking back to the scene when Clara discovered the Doctor as a child.  We never did get to see the Doctor did we? Or why he was hiding up in the bed? That would be a timeless child.

[rur]

Could the Doctor's daughter be a timeless child? She sprang into existence as an adult. Maybe the term is being played with in some way.  

[benteen]

Yeah, I didn't get the Gamemaster being cowed by the threats either.  He's a powerful guy and could probably have the two of them killed easily.  Hell, he probably could have done it right there.  If he was willing to declare no winner, then he wouldn't have cared about getting rid of those two.

[questionfear]

18 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I vaguely remember the "Are you my mummy?" (in gas mask) child episode. Wasn't that the Timeless Child? Or the little girl who regenerated in the alley, who was not(!) River or  Mels: who was she?

Gas mask child was a kid who was injured in the blitz and then the nanobots healed him up all wrong. He wasn't timeless, just a normal kid in the wrong spot. 

[libgirl2]

17 hours ago, Llywela said:

Oh, not just Zoe. The show started out with three companions and maintained that for the first couple of years, then consistently had at least two throughout the rest of the 60s. The early 70s, of course, was the UNIT era, with multiple recurring characters. Mid-70s when the Doctor started travelling again in earnest, he did so with two companions. It was only really through a run in the late 70s that he travelled with a solo companion and no home base for the first time - then back to two and then three as the 80s kicked off, then back down to two and then just one for the last few years. Whenever there was more than one companion, you could guarantee they would be separated early on and have separate adventures for a while before coming back together - of course, a four-episode serial (equivalent of a modern two-parter in run-time) has a bit more time and space for storytelling than a single episode today. In the longer serials, the character dynamics would mix and match quite a bit within a story.

I loved the UNIT years and my heart belongs to the Brig! I know he had Barbara, Ian and Susan in the beginning. Ian (William Russell) took on a lot of the action scenes as William Hartnell was not always able to. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by libgirl2

[Llywela]

21 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I loved the UNIT years and my heart belongs to the Brig! I know he had Barbara, Ian and Susan in the beginning. Ian (William Russell) took on a lot of the action scenes as William Hartnell was not always able to. 

He did - but not because William Hartnell wasn't able to. It was because the Doctor was not originally intended to be the action hero of his own story - that (initially supporting) role kind of merged with the Doctor when Pertwee came along in 1970, former secret agent that he was. :D

The role of the Doctor has been through some interesting changes over the years - sometimes quite hands-off and cerebral, other times quite physical - usually depending on off-screen factors, but it works well for the character, reinforcing the idea that each new Doctor is both the same person and at the same time completely new, with different characteristics and personality traits coming to the fore with each regeneration. It'll be interesting to see how Thirteen shakes down!

[The Companion]

17 hours ago, Kite said:

The threat to the grandmaster dude just didn't work though. Maybe he could have been written as just a little more swayed by persuasion than he was, tricky when he's also very powerful. I think I would have written it as him being visibly a bit amused by the idea "oh okay fine, have it your way" kind of deal.

I would have liked a throwaway line or two about a vast audience watching, since the whole thing felt like a big famous deal.

 

 

16 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

If rather than a threat they'd persuaded him with "think of the publicity/high ratings you'll get by announcing an unprecedented tie with TWO winners!" I think it would have been better and more believable. I mean, his race had no violence/no sabotage rules, so clearly honorable sportsmanship was something he valued for the PR effect if not a dearly-held personal principle. Appeal to that, don't make non-intimidating threats from a position of weakness.

Agreed. I thought it was implied that this race was in some way publicized and watched. Assuming that is the case, I think an appeal to good ratings or encouraging future participants would have made more sense. 

20 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I vaguely remember the "Are you my mummy?" (in gas mask) child episode. Wasn't that the Timeless Child? Or the little girl who regenerated in the alley, who was not(!) River or  Mels: who was she?

The episode was "The Empty Child." I suspect that is what you are thinking of?

[WAnglais1]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

I loved the UNIT years and my heart belongs to the Brig! I know he had Barbara, Ian and Susan in the beginning. Ian (William Russell) took on a lot of the action scenes as William Hartnell was not always able to. 

Also, keep in mind there were around 40 episodes a year back then. The Doctor, or a companion, would get the odd week off from filming. 

[libgirl2]

8 minutes ago, WAnglais1 said:

Also, keep in mind there were around 40 episodes a year back then. The Doctor, or a companion, would get the odd week off from filming. 

That's true. I remember in the commentary of several episodes that being discussed. 

[TexasGal]

18 hours ago, Kite said:

Sounds like the prize money was EXTREMELY large, they'll be fine. They won't be stuck together at all, they'll split it and get as far away as possible from each other, Angstrom back to her people, Enzo to be rich and cynical. I kind of liked the abrupt ending, because I thought their (sort of) happy endings were implied, POOF, they're sorted, the end.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm suspecting we will see one or both of them again.

[Kite]

15 hours ago, TexasGal said:

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm suspecting we will see one or both of them again.

I heard a rumour about this?! I don't think we need to see them again. Their arcs are done. I can do without seeing the Stenza again, since Tim Shaw seemed like such a one-off villain, but seems we might get that too. His Chibs might have claimed there'd be no arc but this is the dude who wrote mystery crime drama Broadchurch, and modern television generally demands an arc, soooo... we'll probably get things coming back. I actually really like arcs, but I just don't care enough about the aforementioned players. Make me care, show.

EDIT: I watched this episode again in a much better mood and loved it this time. Yippeeee I am one of the blessed!!

EDIT 2: And OMG I am loving the theme tune / visuals SO MUCH from a nostalgia point of view; when I was a kid in the early 80s I was so hungry for electronic visuals and music and dark eerieness in general and there just wasn't much around and it made me love this show even more at the time. This new opening & credits has it in spades, and is a lovely contrast to the (so far) friendly effervescence of the show and Doctor this series. It's eternally alien and weird and harks back to the central mystery of who the Doctor is and I love it.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Kite

[Bruinsfan]

When I first saw the intro graphics, I thought "they really should have hired these guys to do the special effects at the end of Annihilation!"

[andipandi]

My high school age kid during the crash scene: "Did they go to the Promethius school of running away?"

New Tardis inside: cool, but turn up the glow some. I like the hive/amber feel.

New opening scene: like the organic, but some eyes in there would be nice. I liked the esthetics of the capaldi credits/tardis but the swirling clock faces were a little literal.

[Eulipian 5k]

22 hours ago, TexasGal said:

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm suspecting we will see one or both of them again.

Capaldi and Clara had several teams of one-off fellow travelers (the Bank Job, The engineer on the mummy train, Rigsie(?), the Dream Crab crew, et al. )I don't expect to see any of them again either. Of course, if we meet the eternal "Me", that will mean Clara and her diner /TARDIS will be back! (figgety, f*ckety,f#ck!).

[WatchrTina]

Well, I finally got around to watching this episode and I enjoyed it.  It wasn't EPIC.  It was just a nice entertaining hour.  What I'm most happy about is that I have totally accepted the new doctor.  I had a hard time with the transitions from 10 to 11 and then (after falling in love with 11) the transition to 12.  But this transition was smooth (for me.)  Jodi Whitaker IS The Doctor and I am here for it.

Props to whoever it was above that said 13's sonic resembles the spoons ("Sheffield Steel") that 13 used to make it.  That's the mental imagery I'm going to cling to from now on (and not the first thing I thought it resembled.)

And now I really, really want a custard creme.

[truther]

I loved it.  I also just finally managed to watch the whole episode and I'm so happy that the show I love is back.  About halfway through it occurred to me that for the first time in literally years I was watching an actual, good, Doctor Who episode in which everything made sense, the focus was in the right place, and it seemed like the people behind the show knew what they were doing.  It's such a breath of fresh air. 

Love the theme song, btw.  The original theme is one of the best pieces of music ever composed for TV so I can't understand why they don't stick to it.  Why mess with perfection?  

[elle]

On 10/15/2018 at 12:56 PM, The Companion said:

It is fun to have a little Whovian. He will definitely be watching this episode. What is funny is that he likes the one-off episodes that have traditionally not been as well received. His favorites are probably The Curse of the Black Spot and Dinosaurs on a Spaceship. I suspect the will like this one because of the robot bad guys. Slightly off-topic, he had to get stitches this summer after falling and hitting his head at camp and I told him he had to be totally still, like a Weeping Angel. He sat there totally still the entire time.

I'm curious if the doctor or nurse heard you tell him how to sit still.  

What was your little one's reaction to the episode "Rosa"?

On 10/15/2018 at 1:42 PM, Llywela said:

Oh yes. The First Doctor in particular loved to name drop. So did Three. And historicals were quite a big thing in the First Doctor era (pure historicals being stories set in a historical era with no alien involvement other than the Doctor and his companions) - he travelled with Marco Polo for a period of months in his first season and played chess with Kublai Khan, visited the Aztecs (where Barbara was mistaken for a goddess), lived in a villa outside Rome for a few months and met Nero, got involved in The Crusades and met both King Richard and Saladin, hung out with Achilles and Odysseus and the whole gang during the Trojan War, had a tooth extracted by Doc Holliday out in the American West, and, as you've noted, also found himself in Paris in the run up to the Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve (in which he refused to get involved because he wouldn't change the course of established history; companion Steven was devastated by the whole thing, it is part of an amazing run of episodes). And that's just the First Doctor! Pure historicals fell out of favour thereafter, because the show had become so strongly associated with monsters and aliens that it was felt they had to be included in every adventure, so stories that were just about being part of history fell by the wayside, with adventures in bygone ages always written to include some kind of alien menace from the mid-2nd Doctor era onward (with the notable exception of the 5th Doctor adventure Black Orchid). But the Doctor has always had adventures in Earth's past, and a lot of those adventures have included encounters with famous historical figures.

Well, the male Doctors have met their share of female historical figures too - Queen Elizabeth and Queen Victoria being case in point - but if we do get to explore more fabulous women in history than before, I'm all for that! 

Thanks for the run down on the Doctor's time travel adventures. I really need to make time to watch more of the older episodes.

[The Companion]

7 hours ago, elle said:

I'm curious if the doctor or nurse heard you tell him how to sit still.  

What was your little one's reaction to the episode "Rosa"?

If they did, they didn't say anything. Must have been no whovians in the room.

 

We have been all Halloween all the time, so we haven't had time for a re-watch this week yet. Not sure if he will like it simply because there is a lot of talking and he tends to zone out a bit if there isn't any action on the screen. He is probably going to love next week, particularly because it features a certain creature for which I have no fondness. I suspect Rosa will be a good way to talk about being kind and treating people with respect, if I can get him into it. 

[Kite]

On 10/25/2018 at 12:21 AM, The Companion said:

He is probably going to love next week, particularly because it features a certain creature for which I have no fondness. I suspect Rosa will be a good way to talk about being kind and treating people with respect, if I can get him into it. 

I've been waiting for my kids to get old enough to try shamelessly pushing my fave show onto them, I think they would enjoy that certain creature episode as an ideal way to introduce them! Being as they are 3 & 5 and lots of talking makes them zone out, Rosa will have to wait but they will!

[DanaK]

Really enjoyed this episode and I thought the guest stars worked very well. Even though I'm a new viewer, the reunion with the Tardis was emotional and worked very well.

[DanaK]

If they had universal translators in them to be able to speak to the alien racers, why was it only the Doctor could translate the scientists' writing in the floor painting? Yes, I know it's a scifi trope that some things are translated and some aren't according to the need for drama, but is there an in-show reason or just chalk it up to needs of the plot?

[ganesh]

Speech yes, writing no. 

[Bruinsfan]

Understandably, the racers' universal translators weren't up to TARDIS standards, and even it takes a while with written language as we saw in "A Good Man Goes to War."

[DanaK]

I enjoyed this episode, but one problem that stands out on rewatch is that in spite of the planet having a toxic atmosphere and toxic water, the Tardis crew don’t show any physical signs of distress because of it in terms of being sweaty, thirsty, hot, bedraggled, etc (the two racers apparently had medicine they took)

[John Potts]

9 hours ago, DanaK said:

in spite of the planet having a toxic atmosphere and toxic water, the Tardis crew don’t show any physical signs of distress

True, but everyone knows that poison has absolutely no effect - until it kills you. TV has taught us all that!