S04.E05: Quite A Ride

[Bannon]

21 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

TV based a lot of series on desperate characters with crushed hopes: The Fugitive, Kung Fu, Battlestar Galactica (crushed every character's hopes),, and of course, master thespian, Chuck Connor's Branded. They all started off where Cinnabon Gene is now. BB & BCS of course were not "westerns " with the characters moving from place to place. The Shield was closer to the death spiral of BB & BCS.

This show is shining example #1 for television writers, with regard to there being no throw away characters, that every character needs to be well drawn, with an interesting and consistent interior life that matches the character's biography. Too many writers have a character like Saul in BB just be plot advancement tools, and thus the character just becomes whatever the writer needs the character to be in that scene, to get the plot to the place the writer wants it to be. This produces a lot of mediocre drama.

Gilligan and Gould may not have envisioned a Saul prequel for some time after he was introduced in BB, but because they actually made the effort to make this character seem real, it made BCS a possible great show in itself.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Bannon

[Juliegirlj]

As soon as the Lab Architect bragged about a previous job I knew immediately he was out. 

Loving the B.B. crossovers more than I can say!! 

Maybe Francesca will retain Howard as her attorney? Doing a little penance towards one of Jimmy’s people may help him get over his guilty conscience. 

A good salesman can sell anything ~ Jimmy is a great salesman! Not a great criminal though. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Juliegirlj said:

As soon as the Lab Architect bragged about a previous job I knew immediately he was out. 

Loving the B.B. crossovers more than I can say!! 

Maybe Francesca will retain Howard as her attorney? Doing a little penance towards one of Jimmy’s people may help him get over his guilty conscience. 

A good salesman can sell anything ~ Jimmy is a great salesman! Not a great criminal though. 

I like the idea of Howard being the attorney Francesca is supposed to call. He may always feel guilt regarding Jimmy - so the "call Jimmy" makes sense in that context.

Yeah, a good salesman is just a con man on the legal side of the spectrum. They're both selling all the time, and not necessarily completely honest about what they're selling. :)

Edited September 6, 2018 by Clanstarling

[smartymarty]

Quote

I can't see any basis at all for a wrongful death suit by Jimmy against Howard.  I'm not sure Jimmy would even have standing as he was only left $5,000 in the will.  Chuck's estate would probably be the plaintiff in any such suit.  But, Howard did absolutely nothing unlawful or negligent to cause Chuck's death.  He played hardball, but he legally forced Chuck out of the firm.  At any rate, Chuck's decision to commit suicide was his own.  If he thought Howard wronged him, he could have taken legal action against Howard and HHM.  

Wrongful death suits are brought by the survivors, not the decedents, and standing is premised on the closeness of the relationship ("You wronged me by killing my husband."). What Jimmy got under the will has nothing to do with it (except possibly to suggest he and his brother were not close). But I agree that Chuck's decision to commit suicide was his own and thus no lawsuit can come of it.

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

Maybe Francesca will retain Howard as her attorney? Doing a little penance towards one of Jimmy’s people may help him get over his guilty conscience. 

I was just thinking the same thing. Wondering if something happens betwern now and the season finale (or the series finale) where Howard ends up owing Jimmy a favour.

[Eulipian 5k]

I've seen Howard thinking Chuck committed suicide, but has there been any suspicion, (fire-marshals,) or conclusion, (insurance investigators,) that Chuck didn't die in a n accident? Such a conclusion would have great effect on paying out Howard Chuck's and HHM's  insurance policies. I can't imagine the principals of HHM aren't insured for a hefty sum payable to HHM. And we would have heard Howard say something to Rebecca if suicide was holding up settlement of the estate. And we, Kim, and the entire floor where Howard's office is, knows he didn't say anything to Rebecca about suicide,

Edited September 6, 2018 by Eulipian 5k
Howie's alive!

[PeterPirate]

20 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

While Jimmy committed some felonies in the MV fraud, I don't think Kim committed any crime.  She technically didn't know that Jimmy did it, though she punched him in the car after Chuck made the accusation.  Later, she become his attorney, so it was her job to defend him.  I think the one probably illegal thing that she did was calling every handyman in the phone book to find out which one was supposed to fix Chuck's door and then cancelling the appointment so Jimmy could send Mike to take photos and get Rebecca's contact information. 

Kim blames herself for Chuck's death already, so I wouldn't be shocked if she admitted her guilt to Howard.  Of course what neither of them know is that Jimmy set the events leading to Chuck's suicide in motion by ratting to the insurance company about him.  Unlike Howard and Kim, who were trying to protect their firms or friend when the hurt Chuck, Jimmy did that out of pure malice.  Since he undid the horrible thing he did to Irene, that was probably the worst thing we've seen Jimmy do.  

Again, from L&O, one party in a conspiracy does not have to know exactly what the other party has done in order to form a conspiracy.  And the attorney-client privilege does not apply to criminal behavior.  Kim's phone call to the repair company, in which she falsely represented herself as speaking for Chuck McGill, led to Mike taking pictures of the inside of Chuck's house, and those pictures were entered into evidence at Jimmy's legal proceeding.  When she made the phone call she entered into a conspiracy with Jimmy that started with his altering of the Mesa Verde documents without her knowledge.  

I think Kim is facing a world of hurt if anyone (Howard) ever figures out what she did.  She might or might not be able to escape criminal penalties.  But I'm sure she would, at least, lose her professional reputation and face potential disbarment.  

And again, I think it's in Howard's interest--as a person, not as a lawyer--to see the light that Jimmy and Kim screwed him over and to seek some karmic justice.  OJ Simpson may have been found innocent of killing his wife, but I'll bet most people were happy to see him get a 33-year prison sentence for retrieving/stealing some sports memorabilia.  

Edited September 6, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, PeterPirate said:

Again, from L&O, one party in a conspiracy does not have to know exactly what the other party has done in order to form a conspiracy.  And the attorney-client privilege does not apply to criminal behavior.  Kim's phone call to the repair company, in which she falsely represented herself as speaking for Chuck McGill, led to Mike taking pictures of the inside of Chuck's house, and those pictures were entered into evidence at Jimmy's legal proceeding.  When she made the phone call she entered into a conspiracy with Jimmy that started with his altering of the Mesa Verde documents without her knowledge.  

I think Kim is facing a world of hurt if anyone (Howard) ever figures out what Kim did.  She might or might not be able to escape criminal penalties.  But I'm sure she would, at least, lose her professional reputation and face potential disbarment.  

And again, I think it's in Howard's interest--as a person, not as a lawyer--to see the light that Jimmy and Kim screwed him over and to seek some karmic justice.  OJ Simpson may have been found innocent of killing his wife, but I'll bet most people were happy to see him get a 33-year prison sentence for retrieving/stealing one Heisman Trophy.  

But, Kim was not part of Jimmy's document doctoring.  He did it without her knowledge and she in no way encouraged him to do it.  She told MV about Chuck's allegations against Jimmy and they didn't believe it.  The DA heard the tape and chose not to prosecute on those charges. The bar disciplinary committee heard the tapes and Chuck's testimony and determined that the allegations of document tampering were not credible. and suspended Jimmy for the breaking and entering and assault, not for what he confessed to on the tape.  The bar has a much lower standard of proof than beyond a reasonable doubt, which would be the standard in a criminal case.  There is no way Jimmy could be convicted of the MV fraud, much less Kim, who was totally innocent of those charges.

The phone calls to cancel the door repair could be part of a criminal conspiracy, but:

a) Only Kim, Mike and Jimmy know about it.  In fact, Mike probably doesn't even know that Kim made the calls.

b) It would be almost impossible for the crime to be discovered.  Unless Mike and Jimmy both rat her out, how would the authorities find out?  Maybe Howard gets a bill from the real contractor for a cancellation fee, and then calls them and finds out a woman called to cancel?  What then, does Howard search the incoming phone records of the store to find out where the call came from?  That seems far fetched and it still wouldn't prove that Kim made the call.   

c) Law enforcement would likely have zero interest in a convoluted investigation into a petty fraud conspiracy, where nothing was stolen, except for a phone number.  Obviously, the APD has more important matters on its plate.  Did you see all those shady characters outside the Dog House?  It looked like a Mad Max movie. :)

[peeayebee]

46 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I've seen Howard thinking Chuck committed suicide, but has there been any suspicion, (fire-marshals,) or conclusion, (insurance investigators,) that Chuck didn't die in a n accident? Such a conclusion would have great effect on paying out Howard Chuck's and HHM's  insurance policies. I can't imagine the principals of HHM aren't insured for a hefty sum payable to HHM. And we would have heard Howard say something to Rebecca if suicide was holding up settlement of the estate. And we, Kim, and the entire floor where Howard's office is, knows he didn't say anything to Rebecca about suicide,

My impression is that the fire has been ruled an accident. I don't think there's any reason for the fire marshal or insurance co to suspect Chuck knocked over the lantern on purpose. 

Re Howard's statement to Jimmy, "I've said too much already," I took it as him saying, "I'm wasting my breath talking to you." His demeanor toward Jimmy seems to have changed. When he tearfully confessed to Jimmy and Kim, and then got a sock in the gut from Jimmy as a result, he was astounded and hurt. I believe that his therapist has helped him to see why Jimmy reacted the way he did because he behaves differently with Jimmy in the bathroom. He's more guarded because he knows Jimmy is emotionally cut off and doesn't know how to have empathy for anyone.

[PeterPirate]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

But, Kim was not part of Jimmy's document doctoring.  He did it without her knowledge and she in no way encouraged him to do it.  She told MV about Chuck's allegations against Jimmy and they didn't believe it.  The DA heard the tape and chose not to prosecute on those charges. The bar disciplinary committee heard the tapes and Chuck's testimony and determined that the allegations of document tampering were not credible. and suspended Jimmy for the breaking and entering and assault, not for what he confessed to on the tape.  The bar has a much lower standard of proof than beyond a reasonable doubt, which would be the standard in a criminal case.  There is no way Jimmy could be convicted of the MV fraud, much less Kim, who was totally innocent of those charges. [1]

The phone calls to cancel the door repair could be part of a criminal conspiracy, but:

a) Only Kim, Mike and Jimmy know about it.  In fact, Mike probably doesn't even know that Kim made the calls.

b) It would be almost impossible for the crime to be discovered.  Unless Mike and Jimmy both rat her out, how would the authorities find out?  Maybe Howard gets a bill from the real contractor for a cancellation fee, and then calls them and finds out a woman called to cancel?  [2] What then, does Howard search the incoming phone records of the store to find out where the call came from?  That seems far fetched and it still wouldn't prove that Kim made the call.   

c) Law enforcement would likely have zero interest in a convoluted investigation into a petty fraud conspiracy [3], where nothing was stolen, except for a phone number.  Obviously, the APD has more important matters on its plate.  Did you see all those shady characters outside the Dog House?  It looked like a Mad Max movie. :)

1.  Jimmy could escape further prosecution, but Kim directly benefited from his actions, so she could be could be held liable for her participation in the conspiracy.

2.  I can think of two instances in BB in which evidence of criminality was exposed in similar or even more convoluted ways.  

3.  Howard would have both standing and motivation to seek retribution for having a client stolen from him using nefarious means.

Edited September 6, 2018 by PeterPirate

[ShadowFacts]

I think Kim was skating on thin ethical ice in planning with Jimmy to plant a battery on Chuck during the bar hearing.  Is it really fair game for people to be planting objects on other people without their consent?  I know it was a big Perry Mason moment in the hearing, but if I had been one of the examiners I would have taken umbrage at two fellow professionals doing that.

[Bryce Lynch]

16 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

1.  Jimmy could escape further prosecution, but Kim directly benefited from his actions, so she could be could be held liable for her participation in the conspiracy.

2.  I can think of two instances in BB in which evidence of criminality was exposed in similar or even more convoluted ways.  

3.  Howard would have both standing and motivation to seek retribution for having a client stolen from him using nefarious means.

 

1) Kim did nothing illegal to benefit from Jimmy's crime.  There was no "conspiracy".  Jimmy did it on his own.   If after Chuck's "mistake", MV chose S&C instead of Kim, would S&C be guilty of "conspiracy"?  Technically, Jimmy COULD be prosecuted for the MV document fraud.  But the way that the DA and the ethics board both responded to the evidence, it would seem impossible to get a conviction.  Convicting Kim would by 1,000 times more difficult because they would need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that not only did Jimmy alter the documents, but that Kim was part of the plan to do so (which isn't even true).  

2) Yeah, I could see Gilligan and Gould coming up with some weird coincidence to let Howard know about Kim's phone call.  But, he still wouldn't be able to prove she made the call, he would have no clue about what the purpose of the cancellation was, or who really came to fix the door, and the police and DA would have no interest in going on a wild goose chase about a possible petty crime.   

3) Howard knew Jimmy altered the documents from the time Chuck played him the tape.  He and Chuck also knew the tape would likely not bring a conviction.  Knowing that Jimmy stole the client, Howard didn't care all that much.  He wanted Jimmy disbarred, but he didn't care that much about it and was trying to discourage Chuck from testifying because the health of HHM was far more important to him.  Why would he all of the sudden want to go after Jimmy and Kim (who he never accused of being involved).  And even if he wanted to, how is Howard going to get retribution?  He has no way to prove Jimmy and especially Kim committed any crime.  

Edited September 6, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[EtheltoTillie]

18 hours ago, Bannon said:

The Americans takes place in the early to mid 80s,  20-25 years earlier.

Movie music trivia: "Street Life" was also used in the opening credits sequence in a mediocre Burt Reynolds action/cop flick from the early 80s, "Sharkey's Machine".

 

Burt Reynolds just died!  IMDB already updated!  I see that the movie title is actually Sharky's Machine, if anyone cares. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by GussieK

[PeterPirate]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

1) Kim did nothing illegal to benefit from Jimmy's crime.  [1] There was no "conspiracy". [2]  Jimmy did it on his own.   If after Chuck's "mistake", MV chose S&C instead of Kim, would S&C be guilty of "conspiracy"? Technically, Jimmy COULD be prosecuted for the MV document fraud.  But the way that the DA and the ethics board both responded to the evidence, it would seem impossible to get a conviction.  Convicting Kim would by 1,000 times more difficult because they would need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that not only did Jimmy alter the documents, but that Kim was part of the plan to do so (which isn't even true).  

2) Yeah, I could see Gilligan and Gould coming up with some weird coincidence to let Howard know about Kim's phone call.  But, he still wouldn't be able to prove she made the call, [3] he would have no clue about what the purpose of the cancellation was, or who really came to fix the door, and the police and DA would have no interest in going on a wild goose chase about a possible petty crime.   

3) Howard knew Jimmy altered the documents from the time Chuck played him the tape.  He and Chuck also knew the tape would likely not bring a conviction.  Knowing that Jimmy stole the client, Howard didn't care all that much.  He wanted Jimmy disbarred, but he didn't care that much about it and was trying to discourage Chuck from testifying because the health of HHM was far more important to him.  Why would he all of the sudden want to go after Jimmy and Kim (who he never accused of being involved).  [4]

1.  Kim took actions that allowed Mike to enter Chuck's house under false pretenses and for fraudulent purposes. 

2.  The entirety of the actions, from the document alteration to the picture taking to the battery planting, were all elements of the same conspiracy.

3.  But Howard can find out where the call came from, and iirc, it came from the law offices of Wexler & McGill.  That might be the only evidence necessary to get Mesa Verde to realize that Jimmy altered their documents, rules of evidence notwithstanding.

4.  Because Howard can't sleep.  And this gets me to my main point.  From a purely legal perspective, maybe he doesn't have a case against Kim and Jimmy.  But he's showing that he's not purely a lawyer.  He's a human being who might come to realize the law failed him.  The events of the previous seasons are eating at him, and either he is going to get some resolution or it's going to destroy him.  

Edited September 6, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Clanstarling]

10 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Burt Reynolds just died!  IMDB already updated!  I see that the movie title is actually Sharky's Machine, if anyone cares. 

Aw, that's sad. If you haven't seen The Last Movie Star, do yourself a favor and watch it. It was a surprisingly touching film, released last year. I think we saw it on Prime.

[EtheltoTillie]

Just now, Clanstarling said:

Aw, that's sad. If you haven't seen The Last Movie Star, do yourself a favor and watch it. It was a surprisingly touching film, released last year. I think we saw it on Prime.

I've been meaning to watch that. Now I have to stop the OT posts or I will get booted. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

1.  Kim took actions that allowed Mike to enter Chuck's house under false pretenses and for fraudulent purposes. 

2.  The entirety of the actions, from the document alteration to the picture taking to the battery planting, were all elements of the same conspiracy.

3.  But Howard can find out where the call came from, and iirc, it came from the law offices of Wexler & McGill.  That might be the only evidence necessary to get Mesa Verde to realize that Jimmy altered their documents, rules of evidence notwithstanding.

4.  Because Howard can't sleep.  And this gets me to my main point.  From a purely legal perspective, maybe he doesn't have a case against Kim and Jimmy.  But he's showing that he's not purely a lawyer.  He's a human being who might come to realize the law failed him.  The events of the previous seasons are eating at him, and either he is going to get some resolution or it's going to destroy him.  

 

1) As I have said, good luck proving it or getting anyone in law enforcement to give a crap.

2) Kim was in now way involved in the document alteration.  We also don't know if she was involved in the battery planting.  Apparently the battery planting was not a crime as the ethics board allowed it as evidence.  There is zero evidence that Kim was involved in getting Mike into Chuck's house.

3) Unless he gets the handyman service to go to some trouble to try to locate the origin of the call Howard can't get the call info.  As for MV, Kim is tanking that relationship anyway.  You were talking about criminal charges against Kim, not her losing a client she was about to lose anyway.   

4) While I think it is highly unlikely, it is conceivable that Howard could seek some sort of vengeance against Kim (in the very unlikely event that he even discovers she had some involvement).  But, he lacks the means to do anything to her.  I mean, I guess he could strangle her with one of his Hamlindigo Blue ties, but he has no way to put her in jail  

Edited September 6, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[PeterPirate]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

1) As I have said, good luck proving it or getting anyone in law enforcement to give a crap.  [3]

2) Kim was in now way involved in the document alteration.  We also don't know if she was involved in the battery planting.  Apparently the battery planting was not a crime as the ethic board allowed it as evidence.  There is zero evidence that Kim was involved in getting Mike into Chuck's house.

3) Unless he gets the handyman service to go to some trouble to try to locate the origin of the call Howard can't get the call info.  [1] As for MV, Kim is tanking that relationship anyway.  You were talking about criminal charges against Kim, not her losing a client she was about to lose anyway.  [2] 

4) While I think it is highly unlikely, it is conceivable that Howard could seek some sort of vengeance against Kim (in the very unlikely event that he even discovers she had some involvement).  But, he lacks the means to do anything to her.  I mean, I guess he could strangle her with one of his Hamlindigo Blue ties, but he has no way to put her in jail  [3]

1.  Who knows, maybe Howard has friends in APD who will get Kim's LUDs for him.  Or maybe he will grease a palm at the handyman service to get that information.  It's a TV show.  Anything is possible.  

2.  I previously posted "I'm sure she would, at least, lose her professional reputation and face potential disbarment."   Which leads to

3.  Howard could threaten to sue and/or expose Kim's involvement in Jimmy's actions.  Heck, even the threat of exposure might be enough to motivate Kim to make a phone call about a vacuum cleaner part.  

 

Look, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not approaching this topic from a legal perspective.  I'm approaching this from a psychological perspective.  Howard is suffering.  How can he relieve his suffering?  Like the church group from the previous episode, he can seek the truth.  If he finds the truth, he can seek justice/retribution/vengeance, and maybe he will sleep better at night.  All the legal ins and outs and twists and turns is just speculation about how this scenario might play out. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, GussieK said:

Burt Reynolds just died!  IMDB already updated!  I see that the movie title is actually Sharky's Machine, if anyone cares. 

It's what I call a good bad movie. It's pretty dumb, but some good actors have some fun with the script.

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I like the idea of Howard being the attorney Francesca is supposed to call. He may always feel guilt regarding Jimmy - so the "call Jimmy" makes sense in that context.

Yeah, a good salesman is just a con man on the legal side of the spectrum. They're both selling all the time, and not necessarily completely honest about what they're selling. :)

Really have to differ with this characterization of salespeople. Yes, there are commonly con artists in the profession, and they can go undetected for a good while. Really good salespeople, however, especially of complex goods and services, are the opposite of con artists. The build hugely successful multi decade careers by being exceptionally good listeners, which leads to asking exceptionally perceptive questions, which leads to more exceptional listening, which leads to solving difficult problems or fulfilling demanding needs. Which leads to years of repeat and referral business. Salespeople are a lot like plumbers; good ones make life demonstrably better, and bad ones can make life hell.

[EtheltoTillie]

It's so unrealistic that Kim is working as a solo (now at least with one paralegal--Yay, Lane Kim) for this giant bank client.  How come I never get clients like that? LOL. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by GussieK

[EtheltoTillie]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Really have to differ with this characterization of salespeople. Yes, there are commonly con artists in the profession, and they can go undetected for a good while. Really good salespeople, however, especially of complex goods and services, are the opposite of con artists. The build hugely successful multi decade careers by being exceptionally good listeners, which leads to asking exceptionally perceptive questions, which leads to more exceptional listening, which leads to solving difficult problems or fulfilling demanding needs. Which leads to years of repeat and referral business. Salespeople are a lot like plumbers; good ones make life demonstrably better, and bad ones can make life hell.

I think this is true, but I also see parallels with con artists.  Successful sales people succeed by good listening and then figuring out what the other side needs to hear.  Con artists/cold readers do the same.  The question is whether the buyer has remorse afterward when they realize they didn't want to buy whatever it was. 

I've been sold by really good clothing sales people and I've enjoyed every minute even while I could see exactly what they were doing.  In the end, I got something I needed and wanted.  I will then go back to that store, as you suggested. 

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, GussieK said:

It's so unrealistic that Kim is working as a solo (now at least with one paralegal--Yay, Lane Kim) for this giant bank client. 

Well, to be fair, it is an aspiring-to-be-giant bank client.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I think this is true, but I also see parallels with con artists.  Successful sales people succeed by good listening and then figuring out what the other side needs to hear.  Con artists/cold readers do the same.  The question is whether the buyer has remorse afterward when they realize they didn't want to buy whatever it was. 

I've been sold by really good clothing sales people and I've enjoyed every minute even while I could see exactly what they were doing.  In the end, I got something I needed and wanted.  I will then go back to that store, as you suggested. 

I can't emphasize enough that when dealing with complex products and services, it is often required to help the client confront very unpleasant realities on an ongoing basis. In contrast, the con artist far more typically makes an appeal to the mark's immediate, short term, gratification, quite often greed-based.

Is there a parallel in con artists and salespeople relying on observational powers? Sure.

[EtheltoTillie]

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I can't emphasize enough that when dealing with complex products and services, it is often required to help the client confront very unpleasant realities on an ongoing basis. In contrast, the con artist far more typically makes an appeal to the mark's immediate, short term, gratification, quite often greed-based.

Is there a parallel in con artists and salespeople relying on observational powers? Sure.

Jimmy McGill is both.  He has capitalized on his con artist skills in the legitimate sales realm.  One of my favorite scenes ever was when Jimmy went back and sold the copier company on his sales prowess.  His tale of the wayward copy machine was spellbinding.  But also based on truth--everyone has suffered that late night agony when the copy machine jams and you're on a deadline.  And how ironic that Jimmy was brought down by a copier fraud.  This show is so great--I get excited about these parallels and Easter eggs.

By the way, I think every (major) character on this show has good sides and bad.  I don't think I've seen a bad side of Tamara Tunie.

[Ellaria]

On 9/5/2018 at 4:00 PM, JudyObscure said:

Yes, I think everything came to a screeching halt for Kim with the accident.  Over night, she went from the obsessive, sleepless, work machine we had always known to a laid back movie watcher who is just doing the minimum for the bank. Her comment to Jimmy that her powers of concentration were legend was disproved the next day when it was revealed that she had missed her assistant's mistake -- and she didn't much care.  The Mesa Verde models shook her up, but I think she had already decided to quit,  she just doesn't know it yet.

I always thought one of Chuck's best comments about Jimmy was , "No one ever accused Jimmy of being lazy."  It was such a huge understatement because not only is he not lazy,  he finds boredom absolutely intolerable and he is at his best with something hurried and difficult to do.  The  new job was  the very worst thing for him, even sitting on the couch watching TV by himself is unbearable.  I think that's what will make it impossible for him to last the nine months, no matter how often he repeats his goals to himself. Poor thing.

This is a brilliant analysis of both Kim and Jimmy.

I agree that Kim has already decided that Mesa Verde isn't for her. Whether she quits or is fired, it doesn't matter in the context of her storyline. She is done. Of much more interest to me is what she does next and how Jimmy responds to it. I can't begin to guess what she chooses but I'm fairly sure that it will precipitate the break with Jimmy.

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Yeah, a good salesman is just a con man on the legal side of the spectrum. They're both selling all the time, and not necessarily completely honest about what they're selling. :)

Just to clarify: By "good" salesman, you mean someone who sells a lot, not a good person, right? 
My father sold real estate; he told me his goal was to connect people with the home of their dreams that would make them happy. My mother was really annoyed at "looky loos" who had my father drive them all over The Big Island (he knew it like the back of his hand) and then bought privately from the seller, so my dad didn't get a commission, but he never complained. 
I'm not sure if Jimmy is a "good" salesman in either sense of the word, since he seems to fritter away his profits on schemes that don't work out so well--although, in the opening scene, how much cash did he have squirreled away? I have no point of reference, and don't even know if those would be bundles of $20s or $100s or . . . ?
 

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, GussieK said:

Jimmy McGill is both.  He has capitalized on his con artist skills in the legitimate sales realm.  One of my favorite scenes ever was when Jimmy went back and sold the copier company on his sales prowess.  His tale of the wayward copy machine was spellbinding.  But also based on truth--everyone has suffered that late night agony when the copy machine jams and you're on a deadline.  And how ironic that Jimmy was brought down by a copier fraud.  This show is so great--I get excited about these parallels and Easter eggs.

By the way, I think every (major) character on this show has good sides and bad.  I don't think I've seen a bad side of Tamara Tunie.

Oh, sure, Jimmy could be a great salesperson, with the right leadership. Same as lawyer. Unfortunately, his brother was best situated to provide it, but wasn't interested.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Just to clarify: By "good" salesman, you mean someone who sells a lot, not a good person, right? 
My father sold real estate; he told me his goal was to connect people with the home of their dreams that would make them happy. My mother was really annoyed at "looky loos" who had my father drive them all over The Big Island (he knew it like the back of his hand) and then bought privately from the seller, so my dad didn't get a commission, but he never complained. 
I'm not sure if Jimmy is a "good" salesman in either sense of the word, since he seems to fritter away his profits on schemes that don't work out so well--although, in the opening scene, how much cash did he have squirreled away? I have no point of reference, and don't even know if those would be bundles of $20s or $100s or . . . ?
 

I don't think a good salesman (one who sells a lot) and a good person are mutually exclusive.  So I apologize if I seemed to be casting aspersions on good people in sales. Nevertheless "good" salesmen (good people or not), and con men (definitely not good people) share a similar skill set - understanding what the customer/mark wants or is looking for.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Really have to differ with this characterization of salespeople. Yes, there are commonly con artists in the profession, and they can go undetected for a good while. Really good salespeople, however, especially of complex goods and services, are the opposite of con artists. The build hugely successful multi decade careers by being exceptionally good listeners, which leads to asking exceptionally perceptive questions, which leads to more exceptional listening, which leads to solving difficult problems or fulfilling demanding needs. Which leads to years of repeat and referral business. Salespeople are a lot like plumbers; good ones make life demonstrably better, and bad ones can make life hell.

My statement was really a matter of matching skill sets, and meant to be a quip, not an insult to sales people anywhere.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Clanstarling

[CigarDoug]

14 hours ago, GussieK said:

By the way, I think every (major) character on this show has good sides and bad.  I don't think I've seen a bad side of Tamara Tunie.

Then you need to see her in The Devil's Advocate.

[EtheltoTillie]

33 minutes ago, CigarDoug said:

Then you need to see her in The Devil's Advocate.

Wow, I don't even remember her in that one! 

[Wouldofshouldof]

On 9/3/2018 at 10:12 PM, Blakeston said:

In addition to the first candidate being overly optimistic, it couldn't have helped his case that he blabbed details about a different criminal project. Gus is nothing if not discreet.

Oh, and that made me realize - if he dug a tunnel like he said, it was probably for a cartel.  So Gus was wise to avoid any connection there.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Wouldofshouldof

[ShadowFacts]

I've been missing humor in the show recently, though it's hard to insert it organically when there's lots of death and mayhem.  That's why I really enjoyed the opening scene of Saul bugging out of his tacky office.  It was Francesca who got me chuckling, not only with her declining the hug, but her telling Saul to "use your words."  Spoken like a true parent, or kindergarten teacher. 

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, Wouldofshouldof said:

Oh, and that made me realize - if he dug a tunnel like he said, it was probably for a cartel.  So Gus was wise to avoid any connection there.

That makes me wonder about the second guy too.  Anyone willing to endure that van ride would have some experience with organized crime.  Maybe he was there at the behest of Lydia and/or Madrigal.  

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

That makes me wonder about the second guy too.  Anyone willing to endure that van ride would have some experience with organized crime.  Maybe he was there at the behest of Lydia and/or Madrigal.  

Since he is German, I suspect Peter Schuler, the head of Madrigal's fast food division,  might have sent him.   

[mrspidey]

I appreciate the use of an actual german actor. It's nice when there are no utterly broken german lines throwing you out of a narrative. Well, except when Gus spoke it, but he gets a pass. 

[j-beda]

On 9/6/2018 at 2:12 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

I've seen Howard thinking Chuck committed suicide, but has there been any suspicion, (fire-marshals,) or conclusion, (insurance investigators,) that Chuck didn't die in a n accident? Such a conclusion would have great effect on paying out Howard Chuck's and HHM's  insurance policies. I can't imagine the principals of HHM aren't insured for a hefty sum payable to HHM. And we would have heard Howard say something to Rebecca if suicide was holding up settlement of the estate. And we, Kim, and the entire floor where Howard's office is, knows he didn't say anything to Rebecca about suicide,

The vast majority of life insurance policies will pay out after a suicide if the policy has been in place for more than a few years. See http://www.insurancequotes.org/life/the-truth-about-suicide-life-insurance/ for example.

[ShadowFacts]

17 minutes ago, j-beda said:

The vast majority of life insurance policies will pay out after a suicide if the policy has been in place for more than a few years. See http://www.insurancequotes.org/life/the-truth-about-suicide-life-insurance/ for example.

Unless Chuck left a note that didn't burn up, or a voicemail to someone, I don't think there's any way to prove suicide, even if the policy was a newer one where the insurance company wanted to assert that it was. 

[DangerousMinds]

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

That makes me wonder about the second guy too.  Anyone willing to endure that van ride would have some experience with organized crime.  Maybe he was there at the behest of Lydia and/or Madrigal.  

I do wonder where they found these people.

[BradandJanet]

24 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I do wonder where they found these people.

I assumed through Madrigal. I thought the first guy had a German accent too, but I didn't listen carefully because I was trying to figure out what was going on.

[PeterPirate]

I didn't even notice the guy was German until I read the comments here.  I thought Gus spoke to him in Spanish.  (I've since gone to a script site and learned they were talking in German.)

Edited September 8, 2018 by PeterPirate

[wendyg]

The first guy sounded more French to me.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, wendyg said:

The first guy sounded more French to me.

He was.

[mrspidey]

16 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I didn't even notice the guy was German until I read the comments here.  I thought Gus spoke to him in Spanish.  (I've since gone to a script site and learned they were talking in German.)

Well, Werner Ziegler is a very german name. 

[ruby24]

I have a feeling the show's not going to end with him becoming Saul now, but they're going to go forward into present day, and that Kim will reappear somehow to help him. Whatever happens between them, I just have this feeling that the show likes her too much and likes them together too much to want to split them apart in a way where she will never see him again, etc.

Plus, it's not like anyone else can magically show up to help him in the present, given what happens in BB, so I'm betting that Kim will be the one.

[DangerousMinds]

Is there going to be another season after this one?

[MrWhyt]

3 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Is there going to be another season after this one?

I don't think it has officially been renewed yet but I think it's pretty certain that barring a sharp downturn in ratings and quality that AMC will give them all the episodes they want/need to tell their story.

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Is there going to be another season after this one?

Yes, it has been renewed for a 5th season already.

[FortKnox]

Speaking of the Denver airport.