Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Sakura12]

Even in shock, what possessed her to drag her sister's body down to the Arrow cave and sit there with her for hours without contacting anyone? And from an outside viewpoint, what plot reason (which is usually the reason characters do stupid things) was possibly served by that? Am I missing something here?

 

 

To show us how super strong Laurel is being able to carry her more muscular sister around town and into the Arrow cave. In my mind Laurel was dragging Sara around by her ankles letting her head hit everything on the way there. Sara was alive and died from massive head trauma caused by Laurel. Making Laurel, Sara's actual killer. 

Edited December 8, 2014 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

Ha. Yeah it doesn't make sense. I just can't figure out what was going in in the writers' minds though. I mean, even with Slade and the Mirakuru thing, I could sort of see what they were going for. "Oh we need Slade to hate Oliver - let's make him insane and kill Shado (who he is abruptly in love with)". It was stupid and I hated it, but at least I know why, even if I think there likely a thousand better ways to do it.

I don't see the point here. The only thing served by this that I can see is Poor Laurel All Alone in her drama -"my sister died and no one knows", except that everyone does, except her father. What plot purpose is served by keeping Sara's death a secret? Serious question. Nothing would change about how this season has played out so far as I can see, except that Laurel wouldn't be lying to her dad.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

Also, it would be the lab for the SCPD that was working on figuring out the DNA from the arrows that killed Sara and having a real autopsy to find out more about her killer, isn't of Felicity's inadequate machinery  (because she bought the supplies a vigilante needs, not a coroner's office).  So maybe they would actually have a chance of catching Sara's killer.

Edited December 8, 2014 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

Not necessarily. Even if they brought Quentin in on the secret, that doesn't mean it would turned over to SCPD. Oliver might still have convinced Quentin that the investigation was better handled by them because of who she was. I can't see Quentin arguing that much - after all he's already turning over other crime scene evidence to the Arrow. So....nothing changes. Except that Quentin knows and Laurel isn't lying to him about it.

[Morrigan2575]

Not necessarily. Even if they brought Quentin in on the secret, that doesn't mean it would turned over to SCPD. Oliver might still have convinced Quentin that the investigation was better handled by them because of who she was. I can't see Quentin arguing that much - after all he's already turning over other crime scene evidence to the Arrow. So....nothing changes. Except that Quentin knows and Laurel isn't lying to him about it.

I can understand not getting SCPD involved because of the plan to make Laurel Canary. If SCPD knew that Sara was Canary and then another woman pops up copying Canary's look and name of course SCPD and by extension the DAs Office and the media will figure out Laurel is Nu!Canary.

What I can't understand nor support is the stupid keeping Quentin out of the loop. If they really wanted to build a good mystery around Sara's murder, having Quentin/Laurel work with Team Arrow would incorporate most of the series regulars in the main season arc. Arrow could work with Detective Lance to investigate. Laurel could still become bitter/angry and turn her attention to vigilantism and training in order to keep her mind off drinking/drugs. Team Arrow could still do the leg work and Felicity could do the computer searches. They can use Star Labs equipment to run some tests and have Barry do his CSI Analysis stuff to help them out. Wouldn't even need to show Barry/Caitlin just have Felicity name drop, anf then info dump.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

Exactly. So....what are you smoking writers?

[TanyaKay]

 

Then this season, it seems like they decided they wanted him to regress because that's the only way their story would work (hey look! Writing to plot instead of characters again). So he's miserable and angsty and 'I can't be happy so look at my woobie face'. Pretty boring, if that's all you're getting.

 

Its a good thing Stephen is so handsome to look at. Had it been a less good looking guy making woobie faces all the time, I most probably would've abandoned the show. I am sticking it out because of Stephen's abs and Felicity.

[Sakura12]

I'll stick with seeing Stephen on his facebook page and watching Youtube videos of his workouts. It's a lot more entertaining and fun and less rage inducing than watching the show. 

[icandigit]

 

it seems like they get bored of those characters almost as quickly as they get excited by them. Huntress? Blood?

The discontinuation of the Blood storyline only adds to my realization that I should just abandon this show. Evil mayor who knows Oliver's secret. No story to mine there.

[insubordination]

 

Evil mayor who knows Oliver's secret. No story to mine there.

Plus they did all that stuff with his creepy family background and then turned him into a secondary character and killed him off. Why?  They really are unskilled writers. I'm sure they have some great ideas, but then they decide it's too hard and just drop/skip over it all and start the next chapter.

[tv echo]

It's like The Christmas Toy -- The EPs get permission from DC Comics to use new comic book characters.  They get all excited and want to play with their new toys as soon as possible, but quickly get bored with them and want to move on to new toys.  And so on and so forth.

Edited December 10, 2014 by tv echo

[KirkB]

That's why I wish more adaptions like Arrow and Flash would come up with their own characters rather than simply recycling existing characters. Sure, you want to focus on the rogue's gallery for the more iconic showdowns but there is nothing wrong with creating your own mythology. Unless DC/Marvel insist you can only use their specific characters, and then only certain ones.

Edited December 10, 2014 by KirkB

[Password]

Yeah I mean I was under the impression that because Oliver is SOOO different to comics Oliver (except the past philandering) that Arrow wants to tell its own story. But lately it seems with the Batman stories and the BC necessities, they are more concerned with comics than I thought. Excellent characters in Diggle, Felicity and Moira *sob* gave us a glimpse into a world unhindered by comics law, and if they really wanted to tell their own story, these 3 characters would be alive and have great storylines.

I have nothing against Laurel. I don't particularly understand her vengeance spiel, and I don't watch the show for her, but hearing things like "trilogy" and "Laurel" in the same sentence gives me nasty season 2b flashbacks that also included another over used character.

It makes me bitter where this show is going and where it's fallen from.

[Sakura12]

I don't know about Marvel yet. But DC has come up with original characters and they treat them like crap or toss them at garbage cans so the CANON characters can be front and center. Felicity while technically a canon character is like Chloe before her, they are popular with the fans so they get to stick around but have very little story of their own. Chloe had boyfriends but they either cheated on her, died or were monsters. At least until Oliver Queen who also dated her cousin before her. (Both versions of Oliver like to keep things in the family). 

 

Plus I hate that they think giving Felicity a boyfriend equals giving Felicity a story on her own. When it also seems like a way to introduce a origin story of Ray/Atom instead of being about Felicity as a person. 

[MostlyC]

Please restrict your bitterness to Arrow.  There are topics for Smallville, and threads for DC and Marvel.

[Danny Franks]

Plus I hate that they think giving Felicity a boyfriend equals giving Felicity a story on her own. When it also seems like a way to introduce a origin story of Ray/Atom instead of being about Felicity as a person. 

 

Well, yeah. She's a woman. What could she want or need more than a man to define her and give her purpose? Duh. 

 

That was seething sarcasm, directed at the writers of this show, in case anyone might think I'm seriously suggesting that women are pointless as characters if they're not attached to a man. But it sure as hell seems like the writers of this show are suggesting that. Felicity is torn between Oliver and 50 Shades, Thea cannot exist without having some skeevy dude to leer at her, Lyla truly does only exist because she has ties to Diggle. Laurel? Well this is where their inability to come up with valid reasons for women other than men start to stand out more. Sure, she's got her dad and she's supposed to be friends with Oliver. But she has no boyfriend so.... good luck orbiting very loosely around the plot, Laurel!

[bluemapleleaf]

I'm bitter that Felicity didn't say anything back to Oliver after his ILY.

Not ready, not feeling a return ILY? Fine but surely to yoda, you could have come up with something? Anything?

I can't imagine someone I cared about going off to face a trial like the one Oliver was going to face, and not making sure my feelings (whatever they were) were clear. Regrets blow.

[blixie]

I'm bitter Greg Berlanti is no longer in the room writing Arrow scripts and making sure that emotions of the characters are being taken care of, that they are given time to react to things and not just checking off a ticky box in a list of things that have to happen before an episode is over. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Obviously, because I can't say it enough, I'm bitter about this fucking Lazarus Pit shit.  A good chunk of your audience doesn't read comics, and doesn't know anything about bathtubs of magical fucking water that can resurrect people.  So please don't even go there, show.  Have Oliver survive any other way. 

[Carrie Ann]

On the Ray/Felicity front: there is no reason they couldn't have paced out the Ray story better over these nine episodes. He didn't need to be in The Climb at all, clearly wasn't needed in the crossover, so honestly, I wish they'd covered this dead fiance* and super suit story in Eps 5-7. There's no reason for Team Arrow not to know about the suit, if Felicity wanted to tell them, and it doesn't hurt the drama in any way.

 

It's like the producers came up with their Season 3A events and reveals and stuck ALL of them in the premiere and this finale, with only tiny little scraps doled out haphazardly in the other seven episodes. There's no reason for that. All it does is lead to BIG EVENT episodes where not a single moment gets to breathe, so none of them land well.

 

*SIGH. We don't yet know what happened to Tatsu, but it doesn't sound great, and that means we're talking about basically every single superhero or villain on this show being motivated via fridging. Holy God, please someone responsible for this show--look at the optics of all the women you keep killing or hurting or stealing agency from, and find. another. way.

[apinknightmare]

Obviously, because I can't say it enough, I'm bitter about this fucking Lazarus Pit shit.  A good chunk of your audience doesn't read comics, and doesn't know anything about bathtubs of magical fucking water that can resurrect people.  So please don't even go there, show.  Have Oliver survive any other way. 

 

I hope they don't. 

 

But we need the Lazarus Pit if we're to have any hope of Zombie!Tommy, so I'm conflicted.

Edited December 11, 2014 by MostlyC
Possible spoiler

[wonderwall]

I think what this show suffers from the most is that there are TOO MANY SPOILERS!!!! Seriously, if we didn't get as many spoilers about this episode, I'm sure it would've been even better and more shocking. 

[TwistedandBored]

This show is doing something I thought was impossible and that is trying to make me hate Batman characters and stories!!!

 

Stop, guys. Just stop! 

[thuganomics85]

Well, unless there is a major twist coming up, I'm bitter that apparently Sara's death was all for Malcolm to get something over Ollie.  And, he used Thea to do it.  In one instant, two female characters I love, have just been sacrificed (in different ways), at the alter of the Ollie vs. Malcolm feud.  Lame.

 

And, I swear, I'm not even merely bitter about this: I'm getting really pissed that this show wants me to like Ray and think he is good for Felicity, when he's still doing stuff like pinging Felicity's phone, and showing up at Verdant unannounced.  He shouldn't be here: he should be on CBS' Stalker.

Edited December 11, 2014 by thuganomics85

[writersblock51]

I'm likewise ticked off, in a very big way, that this show continues to treat Stalking as some kind of charming communication device.  it's not. It's creepy and, in most cases, illegal. 

 

There's something seriously wrong with Ray in that he does stalker things and then openly admits them without realizing how batshit crazy the behavior is. No self awareness and no boundaries.  He has mental problems that I think his scientific prowess tends to mask.

[pivot]

So, after watching this episode tonight, I've come to the conclusion that the executive producers decided at the beginning that they wanted Laurel to have an increased role this season, to be part of Team Arrow and for her to be Black Canary and then they plotted the entire season around that goal. It explains why so many characters have been OOC this season and why it is disjointed and why the season just isn't gelling.

I actually liked large parts of the episode tonight but I can see what they are setting up for next year and how the season has suffered due to being more interesting in Laurel's journey than in Oliver's.

[manbearpig]

Ray is rapidly making me lose interest in Felicity which is making me bitter because I love Felicity. The stalking is of course problematic, but my main problem isn't that he is a creepy stalker. It's that he's a creepy stalker who is also kind of boring. Every time he shows up I just wait for him to leave. I  do like Brandon Routh, but I wish he was playing a different character.

[slayer2]

Liars. Liars. LIARS!!!!!!!!! Gawd I hate these characters. Just give me Sara back you sick bastards!!!!!!!!!

Edited December 11, 2014 by slayer2

[wonderwall]

Liars. Liars. LIARS!!!!!!!!! Gawd I hate these characters. Just give me Sara back you sick bastards!!!!!!!!!

You sound like Thea here ;) 

[slayer2]

I feel like Thea.

[MarDelSol]

I love how much the writers were saying Malcolm isn't really evil, how Malcolm is motivated by love for his family and honor and all that nonsense and then he does this: brainwashes his kid to murder a friend of theirs and then uses the kid's life as leverage to save his own.

 

So stupid. If you're going to write a character like that, that's perfectly fine. But please don't pretend they're some complex, morally gray character.

[NumberCruncher]

So I'm still reeling this morning after last night's episode--not because Oliver "died" but because I know that his death means I have to watch an

Oliverless show for a minimum of 3 episodes with a big possibility of a silly Lazarus Pit resurrection

. I cannot wrap my head around why they thought this was a brilliant idea considering the show needs to keep what ratings they have left after last season's hemorrhage. Yep, still pissed.

[Guest]

I'm likewise ticked off, in a very big way, that this show continues to treat Stalking as some kind of charming communication device.  it's not. It's creepy and, in most cases, illegal. 

 

There's something seriously wrong with Ray in that he does stalker things and then openly admits them without realizing how batshit crazy the behavior is. No self awareness and no boundaries.  He has mental problems that I think his scientific prowess tends to mask.

 

The whole thing would be improved if Felicity called him out on it. Just one short line of dialog of her saying, "Ray, you need to stop tracking my phone, it makes me uncomfortable, there are things called boundaries and you are crossing them" and I would feel so much better about it. The fact that it's just accepted as acceptable behavior seriously annoys me. 

 

And while I'm on the topic, I don't like how Ray is taking up most of Felicity's scenes in what feels like a crappy Pilot launch for a show about the Atom. Go away.

[Password]

The whole thing would be improved if Felicity called him out on it. Just one short line of dialog of her saying, "Ray, you need to stop tracking my phone, it makes me uncomfortable, there are things called boundaries and you are crossing them" and I would feel so much better about it. The fact that it's just accepted as acceptable behavior seriously annoys me. 

This is literally all I need. Acknowledge, fix, move on.

[doesntworkonwood]

I'm bitter about the fact that Ray has only wanted to be a vigilante for 9 months. I'm bitter about the fact that I'm telling myself that at least it makes more sense than other characters, because he at least doesn't need to train, he just needs to put on suit. 

[Starfish35]

Well, unless there is a major twist coming up, I'm bitter that apparently Sara's death was all for Malcolm to get something over Ollie. And, he used Thea to do it. In one instant, two female characters I love, have just been sacrificed (in different ways), at the alter of the Ollie vs. Malcolm feud. Lame.

This. This is so so frustrating. Thea doesn't have a storyline of her own - she's just a pawn in Malcolm's scheming. And Sara's death was probably never going to make sense, but....I didn't expect her to have died for such a ridiculous convoluted scheme.

And of course instead of Tatsu or Waller being the connection between the flashbacks and the present, it's Maseo. I have nothing against Maseo, but again, we're seeing Maseo's story instead of Tatsu's. Felicity is playing support to Ray's superhero origin story, and Thea is a pawn for Malcolm. Only Laurel really has her own story, and it doesn't make one bit of sense. :(

Edited December 12, 2014 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

I don't really understand why people thought she was never a pawn in Malcolm's scheming? I thought it was clear that Malcolm was using her from day 1? IDK that's how I felt. Now that Thea can finally know what Malcolm did to her and Oliver, I hope she destroys him. I think from here on out Thea will be better. I HOPE. I really don't want her clinging to the whole "Malcolm is the only family I have left"... SMH I hope she learns that blood does not make a family, it's the bond. 

[insubordination]

I actually thought that Thea was playing Malcolm and was going to be a powerful force. I am very disappointed it turned out this way.  She's suffered enough and now this.

Edited December 12, 2014 by insubordination

[tv echo]

Keeping Sara's death a BIG SECRET never made any sense to me.  After watching "The Climb" episode, I finally realized why it was kept secret.  It's a plot convenience, nothing more.

 

If it wasn't a secret, then Quentin Lance would know - and the first half of this season would be Quentin's story arc about a parent tracking down his child's killer (just like Liam Neeson's character tracked down his child's kidnapper in Taken).  Quentin would be using all of the resources of the SCPD, and asking the Arrow and Felicity for help.  Someone here once posted that Sara was likely closer to her father, while Laurel was closer to their mother.  I agree.  The first time Sara 'died', Quentin became an alcoholic.  This time, I don't think he would turn to drink, but he would become obssessed with searching for Sara's killer.  When Dinah found out, she would be urging Quentin - not Laurel - to make the killer pay.  (Dinah:  "Quentin, promise me that you'll find our child's murderer and make him pay!")  DInah turning to her ex-husband, a cop, rather than her daughter, a lawyer, for retribution would make more sense.

 

But then Laurel would have someone to share her grief and rage with - her father.  Laurel would not feel cut off, alone, and burdened by this secret.  She would not take center stage.  She would be helping her father in his investigation.  Oliver would likely share the results of the DNA analysis and Malcolm's manipulation of Thea with Quentin and Laurel, who both have known Thea since she was a child and would not blame Thea.  Laurel would not have the same motivation and need to become a vigilante.

 

Oliver's story arc would not have to change.  Ra's al Ghul would still give his 48-hour ultimatum, and Oliver would still surrender himself to protect Thea and save the citizens of Starling City.  Quentin and Laurel would likely accept and respect his decision.  Quentin already knows about Nyssa, the LOA and Sara's role as an assassin.  He would likely have to be told that Oliver was the Arrow (just like Batman revealed he was Bruce Wayne to Gordon right before he went off with the bomb in TDKR), but Quentin likely suspected anyway.  Then when Oliver 'dies', Quentin would work with Team Arrow to bring down Malcolm and protect Thea.

 

So not only Sara's death but also keeping Sara's death a secret was just a plot contrivance to effect Laurel's journey toward becoming

the BC.

 

For the same reason, Quentin's bad health was just a plot device to sideline him and keep him out of what would his natural story arc as the parent of a murdered child.  I'm sure the EPs considered killing him off when he collapsed at the end of last season, but knowing they were killing off Sara, they probably thought two Lance deaths would be too much.  Laurel would be too griefstricken to do anything.  Instead of taking boxing lessons, she'd be headed to Central City to be with her mother - her only surviving family member.

Edited December 12, 2014 by tv echo

[Trini]

Shallow bitterness:

We had to wait nearly half the season for the return of the Abs, only for them to get stabbed? Whyyyyy??

[Trini]

Obviously, because I can't say it enough, I'm bitter about this fucking Lazarus Pit shit.  A good chunk of your audience doesn't read comics, and doesn't know anything about bathtubs of magical fucking water that can resurrect people.  So please don't even go there, show.  Have Oliver survive any other way. 

 

But on a more serious bitter note; I can't imagine what the mostly casual audience thinks of this development. They killed off Sara, and now the lead, Arrow. Who's next?

[Starfish35]

I honestly can't imagine anyone who's not brand new to TV believing that they'd actually kill off the show lead. I think how he survives/comes back to life would be the question on people's minds, not if. Like someone else said, it would be like people believing that Castle actually died in the car crash at the end of last season. TV audiences are used to this kind of stuff.

[Trini]

Yeah, I know that; but it's just that it's only halfway through the season, and there have already been two *SHOCKING DEATHs*. Not to mention how people keep dying and coming back. It's getting ridiculous. (even more so than usual)

[NumberCruncher]

Yeah, I know that; but it's just that it's only halfway through the season, and there have already been two *SHOCKING DEATHs*. Not to mention how people keep dying and coming back. It's getting ridiculous. (even more so than usual)

I agree 100% with this. They need to lighten up a bit because this show has become a dirge. I thought the crossover gave us a much-needed return to the tone of the prior seasons and now we're right back into funeral territory.

[chaos is welcome]

Yeah, I know that; but it's just that it's only halfway through the season, and there have already been two *SHOCKING DEATHs*. Not to mention how people keep dying and coming back. It's getting ridiculous. (even more so than usual)

This. So much this.

What are these writers going to do when they run out of people to kill? In 23 episodes they have graphically/horribly offed:

Shado

Moira

Sara

And now Oliver. With the exception of Oliver, those are all final deaths. That's an average of a little less than 6 eps per graphic death, and not even factoring in Slade and Sara's fake island death.

Only 1 in flashback, 2 were present time losses

How much can we torture Oliver and how many people can we take from him?

By comparison, in the first 33 eps, we had

Robert

Yao fei

Tommy

Malcolm if you want to count him, which I don't because it wasn't a personal loss to Oliver. It must have weighed more on him because he was his best friend's dad, so count it if you want.

That's 1 death roughly every 11 eps, and two of These three significant deaths are in flashback.

I get that not everyone can make it out alive, and people need to die esp in flashback to further Oliver's descent in to hell, but man. They are on pace to kill at least two more characters this season. I am so bitter that they think that's a fun and cool way to tell a story. Don't even get me started on the male to female ratio.

[writersblock51]

This. So much this.

What are these writers going to do when they run out of people to kill? In 23 episodes they have graphically/horribly offed:

Shado

Moira

Sara

And now Oliver. With the exception of Oliver, those are all final deaths. That's an average of a little less than 6 eps per graphic death, and not even factoring in Slade and Sara's fake island death.

Only 1 in flashback, 2 were present time losses

How much can we torture Oliver and how many people can we take from him?

By comparison, in the first 33 eps, we had

Robert

Yao fei

Tommy

Malcolm if you want to count him, which I don't because it wasn't a personal loss to Oliver. It must have weighed more on him because he was his best friend's dad, so count it if you want.

That's 1 death roughly every 11 eps, and two of These three significant deaths are in flashback.

I get that not everyone can make it out alive, and people need to die esp in flashback to further Oliver's descent in to hell, but man. They are on pace to kill at least two more characters this season. I am so bitter that they think that's a fun and cool way to tell a story. Don't even get me started on the male to female ratio.

When you see it mapped out that way, just wow.

 

I didn't expect - nor did I want - the show to be unicorns and rainbows but what the hell?

 

The fact that some people aren't really dead doesn't actually help. it makes death seem trivial in some cases - and when someone IS killed, the audience has every right to expect them to come back again at some point. 

 

At what point did the show decide to go beyond Dark Knight and head into Games of Thrones territory?

 

And why does the show think that killing people off (especially females) is the best and most popular way to drive plot?  These deaths are not character driven at this point.  I have no idea how Oliver even gets out of bed in the morning. 

[NumberCruncher]

Somewhere along the way the showrunners have gotten the idea that the only way you can raise the stakes is to kill off characters. That's one way to do it, but there are about a dozen more that don't include offing people to further Oliver's manpain if they bothered to think outside the box. That's why I miss the big mystery storylines like back in S1. Sure Tommy dying was a side effect of Malcolm's earthquake machine but Tommy dying wasn't driving the story (and no I don't count Oliver arrowing bad dudes) until the EPs made it so in S2 with Oliver wallowing in his depression on Lian Yu and Laurel becoming an addict over losing him. Since then everything has been centered around death of loved ones--especially this season.

I know I'm in the minority but I loved the villain of the week episodes. The show used to have a good balance between them and the arc episodes like back in the first half of S2. At least the VOTW shows gave us a respite every now and then from all of the gloom but the writers still managed to infuse season-long arc bits into them to keep the story moving. I also think they allowed a little more breathing room for actual character development. I enjoy the stunts, action, and suspense as much as the next person but if all you're doing is trying to one-up yourself using those elements without allowing the characters time to react to it all, you're not creating good drama, you're just imitating every other brainless action movie.

Edited December 12, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Password]

I have no idea how Oliver even gets out of bed in the morning.

I'm stumped.

The real kicker is we need him to grow without ever dealing with his pain of losing them.

[calliope1975]

The deaths are extremely annoying to me because there is typically a ton of story that could still be told. Tommy, Moira, and Sara are easy examples. I am forever bitter I won't get a Moira Queen/Donna Smoak meeting. 

 

I'm not against death. I'm against a death that doesn't mean anything and doesn't actually further the story along in a meaningful way. Sara's death could have been an interesting, tragic mystery involving the entire cast. Instead, it's a ridiculous, plot driven mess that makes most of the characters look worse and not only hasn't engaged the audience, but either irritated, angered, or made them not care. 

[chaos is welcome]

I'm bitter that I continue to want and expect things from this show, even when they have repeatedly shown me it's a bad idea. I can't seem to learn my lesson, even when I want to throw things at my tv for an entire episode. I can't decide if it's because the fandom is so talented, SA/EBR (and really the rest of the cast with a few notable exceptions) are so lovely, or if I am still in love with the 2A version of this show that seems dead and gone of Greg berlanti doesn't come over and grace us with this writing presence from flash from time to time.(the only eps he's co wrote this year? 1 and 8). I am bitter that Guggenheim just won't be quite and let me be excited for ten minutes without saying stupid things to make me crazy. I'm so mad at myself that I seem to not learn my lesson and still care. At the rate these idiots are going, I will be lucky if I don't burn all my arrow merchandise before may.