Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Danny Franks]

I care too much about Felicity, Diggle, and to some extent  Oliver to want Arrow to fail. 

 

I DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE FELICITY DOESN'T EXIST. :p God Idk what I'm going to do when Arrow ends lol

 

Wait for Emily Bett Rickards to land another great role, because she surely has a long, successful career ahead of her. It's the others who would probably end up jobbing around on random shows, and in indie movies, and that would make me sad. But I'm starting to feel that these showrunners don't deserve a successful show. They're like a bunch of Mini Marlowes.

[wonderwall]

Wait for Emily Bett Rickards to land another great role, because she surely has a long, successful career ahead of her. It's the others who would probably end up jobbing around on random shows, and in indie movies, and that would make me sad. But I'm starting to feel that these showrunners don't deserve a successful show. They're like a bunch of Mini Marlowes.

I know... But Felicity will always have a special place in my heart :') So even though EBR does get a new role, she won't be Felicity :/ Danny. I think there's something wrong with me because I care way too much about a fictional character :p 

[Pyramid]

I am baffled, just flat out baffled what the producers think they're doing with Laurel. From what had gone before there is no realistic prospect for her to become BC. Not only that, they then shine a massive Sara shaped spotlight on Laurels short comings.

And from a male perspective let me just say that the number of female characters killed off to advance other characters story lines doesn't sit any easier. And chucking the only semi-regular LGBT character, literally, in the garbage ... Well I'm sure it wasn't deliberate, but for feck sake have some sensitivity.

Finally I'd just like to say that it amuses me that Katy Cassiday and Tatiana Maslany will have the same job on their passport.

[Danny Franks]

I know... But Felicity will always have a special place in my heart :') So even though EBR does get a new role, she won't be Felicity :/ Danny. I think there's something wrong with me because I care way too much about a fictional character :p 

 

No, I love her too. But she's stuck in a horrible world where she's subject to the whims of writers who seem to have an increasingly tenuous grip on what makes for good television. And I think most of what makes Felicity so great comes from EBR, rather than the writing. She imbues the character with so much personality and life, that she's the one reason I'm still tempted to watch. But then I remember that she's being passed around all the guys this season, instead of Oliver being passed around all the girls, and I have little interest in watching either.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Danny Franks

[wonderwall]

No, I love her too. But she's stuck in a horrible world where she's subject to the whims of writers who seem to have an increasingly tenuous grip on what makes for good television. And I think most of what makes Felicity so great comes from EBR, rather than the writing. She imbues the character with so much personality and life, that she's the one reason I'm still tempted to watch. But then I remember that she's being passed around all the guys this season, instead of Oliver being passed around all the girls, and I have little interest in watching either.

I definitely agree with this! Just look at certain lines she has. On the date when Felicity says she's seen Oliver shirtless all the time, I think the way she delivered that line just made it so endearing. I can't imagine any other actress (WH, KC, CL) say that without making it sound tacky and/or not endearing or sexual. 

 

I mean, there's a reason why all of the critics I've seen loves her character as well as a large majority of the fandom as well as the EPs and everyone else on the show (except for maybe KC). 

 

I hope EBR finds another role that suits her as well as Felicity suits EBR. I think EBR would do well in dramedy series and not just something sit-com-y. She may not do angst as well as comedy, but she's definitely growing. 

[kryptonjedi]

While I don't agree with all the EPs decisions regarding the show, I still overall like the majority of everything else. I mean killing off Sarah may have not been the best decision depending on who you talk to. But for me at least I am going to have to see how everything coalesces by the end of the season,. As of right now I don't the show has jumped the shark, nor do I think it deserves to fail just because of the death of one character. 

[Sakura12]

What bothers is me is people saying Sara HAD to die so Laurel can be a hero. Really? That's the only reason Laurel will decide to be a hero.

 

Not, because she feels the justice system is corrupt or that she can make a difference protecting people that can't protect themselves. She NEEDED her sister to die to give her a reason to want to help people. That's a terrible reason for becoming a hero. Also how many vengeance motivated origins are we going to have on this show? Let's see we have, Oliver, Slade, Helena, Malcolm, Thea, Diggle and now Laurel. Is that almost everyone? That's some creative storytelling right there. 

 

I guess that's why I enjoyed Sara's origin, no one died for Sara to decide to help women being abused by men or decide to fight alongside Oliver. She didn't need that has a motivation to help people. She just helped people. Same with Felicity, she's helping because it's the right thing to do (unless they change and I hope they don't), that's probably why they are/were :( my favorite characters. (I suppose Roy counts as well, but he barely speaks so I don't really know what his motivation was. It's probably cause comics, so never mind)

 

However my love of Felicity is not enough for me to continue watching Laurel reap the benefits of Sara's death. 

[KirkB]

I watched around for the Buffy debacle as well, and after Tara (who was my favorite character by that point) died I was pissed but I kept watching the show out of some perverse need for closure. I had so many issues with the last season there isn't room on this board for me to go into. I honestly think if there was shark jumping it was the end of 5, not six, because I have always said that would be the perfect way to end the series. Six was a mess because they had to try and restart the show after it was dead and as all zombie movies and shows prove that never ends well.

 

Sara's death won't stop me watching the show. I liked her but she wasn't my favorite character, and even the death of my favorite character wouldn't necessarily stop me from watching a show I like anyway. I like Oliver, Diggle, Felicity, Quentin, Malcolm, and Thea. I love the action scenes. I'm no fan of Olicity but I'll admit Oliver and Felicity look good together. I'm curious to see Flash crossovers because I want to know how they're going to avoid Oliver calling Barry up whenever they have a life or death, time sensitive threat the Flash can solve in a few seconds.

[wonderwall]

I like Oliver, Diggle, Felicity, Quentin, Malcolm, and Thea. I love the action scenes. I'm no fan of Olicity but I'll admit Oliver and Felicity look good together. I'm curious to see Flash crossovers because I want to know how they're going to avoid Oliver calling Barry up whenever they have a life or death, time sensitive threat the Flash can solve in a few seconds.

Aw, you sound like a regular Olicity shipper lmao

 

No but I'm with you. I liked Sara a lot. But she's by no means my favorite character and I watch this show for more than Sara. But if they make this mistake again, I'm definitely out. I'm also really curious about Felicity's history, what will make the Flash crossover so epic, how they'll handle Oliver and Felicity's relationship, how Oliver will gain his humanity back (and I'm pretty sure Felicity will be a huge reason why)... 

 

That being said, Arrow is treading a thin line. I hope they truly know what they're doing this season. 

[shadow2008]

What bothers is me is people saying Sara HAD to die so Laurel can be a hero. Really? That's the only reason Laurel will decide to be a hero.

 

It irritates me too because it simply isn't true. Anyone with just an ounce of creativity could have found a way to pass on the mantle to Laurel without killing Sara off. Sara could have simply retired from the vigilante business because she spent the last 7 years fighting (first for her life and then for other people) and now she's completely burnt out. Or she could have suffered a serious knee injury on one of her missions that leaves her unable to keep working as a vigilante. In the wake of Sara's retirement, Laurel could have noticed the terrible effect the Canary's absence has on the people in Starling City: more and more rape cases are being reported and violence against women has reached an all-time high. So, Laurel goes to Sara and asks her to train her because "the women in Starling City need the Canary." A worried and angry Sara initially declines Laurel's request, but eventually changes her mind and agrees. Cue the passing of the torch and lots of lovely sister bonding moments. It really would have been that easy. Unfortunately, the Arrow writers are creatively bankrupt, so the only way they know to advance the story is through death.

Edited October 12, 2014 by shadow2008

[Sakura12]

Unfortunately, the Arrow writers are creatively bankrupt, so the only way they know to advance the story is through death.

 

With revenge as the only motivator for anyone to do anything. 

 

Killing my favorite characters is my number 1 reason for dropping a show (Vampire Diaries ended when Anna died). My hatred for the Laurel character ruins all the excitement I could have this show. And the final straw being that none of the upcoming storylines really interest me, I don't care who killed Sara, in my mind Laurel did, I'm in indifferent to Olicity, I hate relationship blocker love interests storylines, I was never a huge fan of Thea, I'm upset that Malcolm gets to magically survive an arrow to the heart while all the women stay dead, I don't care about babies on super hero shows, Hong Kong is pointless to me and this show's version of the Wall is a joke, Nyssa and Ra's don't mean anything to me now that Sara's gone since I was most interested in their relationships with her both in the past and now and obviously the storyline that I will never speak of. I think that's all that I've read about. 

 

Pretty much the only storylines I'm interested in are Felcity's back story and the fight scenes, both of which I can just watch when someone puts those scenes on Youtube and ignore everything else. 

Edited October 12, 2014 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

shadow2008, they need to put you on the writing team.  Laurel can't be the Black Canary as long as Sara is being the Canary, but those are great ways to have her step aside so Laurel can take her position.

 

That being said, Arrow is treading a thin line. I hope they truly know what they're doing this season. 

Not if they think that the only reason people were upset with Laurel is that she wasn't donning the fishnets fast enough.  That writers room must be full of people who keep complimenting the emperor on his new clothes.

[dtissagirl]

What bothers is me is people saying Sara HAD to die so Laurel can be a hero. Really? That's the only reason Laurel will decide to be a hero.

 

Yeah, it bothers me too. Actually, people online saying it doesn't bother me as much -- people can say whatever they want, although I honestly don't get it why should I enjoy an open-ended adaptation if the only reason to watch it is to wait for the stuff I already know is gonna happen. Not here for that. But what really bugs is me that the EPs -- the show itself -- is obviously adhering to this particular storyline for one single reason: because comics. And it's like a super weird, super selective manifest destiny that only really applies to Laurel, as if it's the writers duty or something, to make her the one and only Black Canary [when every other character gets a whole lot more leeway in following pre-existing canon]... because comics.

[Danny Franks]

While I don't agree with all the EPs decisions regarding the show, I still overall like the majority of everything else. I mean killing off Sarah may have not been the best decision depending on who you talk to. But for me at least I am going to have to see how everything coalesces by the end of the season,. As of right now I don't the show has jumped the shark, nor do I think it deserves to fail just because of the death of one character. 

 

I had already decided not to bother watching the show, at least for the first few episodes, based on all the summer spoilers. I have no interest in love triangles and manpain suffering martyrs, and I have no interest in seeing Malcolm and Thea do whatever they're going to be doing, and I have no interest in seeing Laurel continue to kill any scenes she appears in.

 

Killing Sara like they did is just the final straw that has told me I don't need to watch the show ever again. And it's not just the death of that one character either, it's the cumulative effect of the three women who were killed so casually in the last fifteen episodes, and what that says about the mentalities of those involved in creating the show. Especially as it indicates that they are still set on pushing Laurel as their main heroine, and that simply does not work for me. She is terrible.

[wingster55]

What bothers is me is people saying Sara HAD to die so Laurel can be a hero. 

 

Like how Tommy died to make Oliver a hero/not a vigilante

 

Wait for Emily Bett Rickards to land another great role, because she surely has a long, successful career ahead of her. It's the others who would probably end up jobbing around on random shows, and in indie movies, and that would make me sad.

 

I don't think that's necessarily gonna be the case...EBR doesn't have a brighter future than anyone else on the show. 

[Danny Franks]

 

I don't think that's necessarily gonna be the case...EBR doesn't have a brighter future than anyone else on the show. 

 

I think she does. She's 23 years old, she's a breakout star of a TV show, where she was originally slated to be a one off guest star. And she has a naturalistic approach that is full of warmth and fun, which has already garnered her a loyal following of fans. Is she still working on her craft? Sure, but she's already ahead of some of the actors featured on Arrow.

[Ceylon5]

From the "Behind the Scenes" thread:

I'm really glad to see someone from the cast address the "Diggle has no costume" issue. Oliver, you provided costumes/masks for Helena and Roy, but not your partner?  :: thunks Oliver over the head again ::

 

This whole identity-hiding thing really bugs me.  Oliver spends all his time quite obviously in the company of Felicity and Diggle.  Det. Lance, and therefore presumably everyone else who cares, knows that Arrow's known associates are Felicity and Diggle, because they've made no attempt to hide their identities.  So you'd think the conclusion that the Arrow is Oliver would be extremely obvious.

 

If they were really trying to hide Arrow's identity, they should have always hidden Diggle's identity when on missions, as well as always using code names for everyone on the comms or when out in the field.  Felicity's connection to the Arrow was discovered by the police in S1 when they identified her due to one of her hacks [side note: this is a plot-point which I find highly unlikely and stupid - what did she do, leave a little hacking note saying "Felicity Smoak was here"? Felicity would be able to cover her tracks better than that!  They were never able to identify all her hacks on their own systems, but somehow they identified her (not the location she was hacking from, mind you, but somehow, inexplicably, her identity) from her hack on Merlyn Global?  Yeah, right.  Dumb storyline.], and has since been Lance's contact with Arrow, and yet no-one on the vigilante task-force ever put any kind of surveillance on her to see where & how she spends her off-hours - what the devil were they even doing to try to find the Arrow anyway?  And given that the police aren't the only people who might try to track the Arrow via his known associates, and the bad guys can only be more competent than the cops, they really shouldn't use her name all the time when they're on missions.  Besides putting Oliver's "hidden" identity at risk, it puts Felicity herself at risk.  Ditto for the rest of them.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Ceylon5

[Morrigan2575]

As crazy as it seems right now, I won't be surprised if it turns out that a lot of fans do accept Laurel as the BC once she dons the costume and starts fighting (most likely after some unbelievably quick training journey, and with generous use of stunt doubles). Let's face it, KC can pull off hostile & aggressive much better than warm & compassionate. And superhero fans mostly love kickass females. Of course, you'll need to hand-wave a lot of things..

I have no doubt that, that is what the EPs hope will happen but it's a massive gamble and it doesn't generally work out that way. I can't say always but it definitely happens enough to have it's own trope.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReplacementScrappy

There's a lot in that link that I believe applies but, this caught my attention because I think most of us already think/see/fear this happening.

If the new character is poorly written, becomes a Spotlight-Stealing Squad, interacts awkwardly with the old characters, derails the show, or - worst of all - becomes a Mary Sue or Creator's Pet, fans will often go to war over their outrage. Expect the use of flamethrowers where these characters are discussed, especially if the new character gains a dissenting fandom - Broken Bases because of these characters are not unknown phenomena. Investing in fire-proof armor or a bunker deep underground may help if all-encompassing forum warfare breaks out.

In short I imagine the hatred for Laurel will increase, not decrease. However, we will see. Edited October 12, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Password]

If they were really trying to hide Arrow's identity, they should have always hidden Diggle's identity when on missions, as well as always using code names for everyone on the comms or when out in the field.  Felicity's connection to the Arrow was discovered by the police in S1 when they identified her due to one of her hacks [side note: this is a plot-point which I find highly unlikely and stupid - what did she do, leave a little hacking note saying "Felicity Smoak was here"? Felicity would be able to cover her tracks better than that!  They were never able to identify all her hacks on their own systems, but somehow they identified her (not the location she was hacking from, mind you, but somehow, inexplicably, her identity) from her hack on Merlyn Global?  Yeah, right.  Dumb storyline.], and has since been Lance's contact with Arrow, and yet no-one on the vigilante task-force ever put any kind of surveillance on her to see where & how she spends her off-hours - what the devil where they even doing to try to find the Arrow anyway?  And given that the police aren't the only people who might try to track the Arrow via his known associates, and the bad guys can only be more competent than the cops, they really shouldn't use her name all the time when they're on missions.  Besides putting Oliver's "hidden" identity at risk, it puts Felicity herself at risk.  Ditto for the rest of them.

 

I miss the days where I felt like I could overlook such plot holes. But I doubt they mentioned it for nothing, it'll come back to them somehow.

[apinknightmare]

I have no doubt that, that is what the EPs hope will happen but it's a massive gamble and it doesn't generally work out that way. I can't say always but it definitely happens enough to have it's own trope.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReplacementScrappy

There's a lot in that link that I believe applies but, this caught my attention because I think most of us already think/see/fear this happening.

 

I'm not sure that this applies entirely, because Laurel has been on the show from the start, so it's not like she's a true imposter, and I think a lot of people who don't care for her (and are probably ignorant of comics canon) will get behind her for avenging her sister's death. While I think AK and co. willfully had their heads in the sand regarding the audience not liking Laurel because they were anxious for her to put on the fishnets (I know this isn't a representative audience, but of the 8 people I got to watch the show, 7 of them didn't care for Laurel, and none of them even knew that she was supposed to become BC), I wouldn't be surprised if once she does, a lot of the general audience comes around. Not saying it will happen, but I think it's possible (and, IMO, likely).

[tv echo]

I'm not ready to quit the show yet.  We've worried about the EPs killing off Sara for awhile now, so the fact that it has happened isn't a huge surprise - even though they did it too soon and in a really crappy, shameful way.  Their blind commitment to Laurel becoming the BC does confound me.  Her journey does not interest me at all.  If Team Arrow ends up being Oliver, Laurel and Roy in costume (as I said in another thread), or if they screw up the Felicity character, then I'm out.

 

As has been said, the failure of the Laurel character is due to both the writing and the acting.  Writing is only half of the character portrayal.  Acting is the other.  A good actor can take bad or minimal writing and add nuances to the performance that elevate it above the written material.  On the other hand, a bad actor can take good writing and flatten it into a one-dimensional performance.

 

At this point, Katie Holmes would make a better Laurel than Katie Cassidy (considering Laurel was apparently derived from Rachel Dawes of Batman Begins) - and that's not saying much.

Edited October 12, 2014 by tv echo

[catrox14]

Like how Tommy died to make Oliver a hero/not a vigilante

 

It's about Oliver Queen's journey to being the Green Arrow. I fucking hated Tommy dying but I think it worked for Oliver's journey and it still echoes in the show as to what motivated Oliver to become "The Arrow". I care about Oliver's journey. I root for Oliver to succeed.  I rooted for Sarah to succeed in overcoming her issues to being a hero. I root for Roy, Thea ,Felicity, Diggle, Detective Lance. I full on hated Slade and that is a good thing.  I loved watching Moira be shady and love her family and I still rooted for Moira. Malcolm is just a great villain that I don't root for but I do care about what happens with that character.

 

Neither the writers nor the actor have done one single thing with Laurel that makes her interesting. And all their attempts to do something with her have made me actively resent her presence. So knowing that she is going to get even MORE screen time at the expense of other characters I do like? Color me dismayed and bitter. 

 

I do not care about Laurel. I have never cared about Laurel. I do not like Laurel. I do not like her in the court, I do not like her with a wart. I do not like her with blonde/brown hair. I do not like her anywhere.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm not sure that this applies entirely, because Laurel has been on the show from the start, so it's not like she's a true imposter, and I think a lot of people who don't care for her (and are probably ignorant of comics canon) will get behind her for avenging her sister's death. While I think AK and co. willfully had their heads in the sand regarding the audience not liking Laurel because they were anxious for her to put on the fishnets (I know this isn't a representative audience, but of the 8 people I got to watch the show, 7 of them didn't care for Laurel, and none of them even knew that she was supposed to become BC), I wouldn't be surprised if once she does, a lot of the general audience comes around. Not saying it will happen, but I think it's possible (and, IMO, likely).

Maybe but I doubt it, she's already the Scrappy character,  now they mixed in a replacement Scrappy and yeah that's not going to go over well (IMO). 

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheScrappy 

 

Arrow: Laurel Lance. Most fans find her bland and uninteresting, due to most of her storylines being typical CW-Teen Drama fare instead of action-adventure Comic Book Adaptation that the show is meant to be.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

Like how Tommy died to make Oliver a hero/not a vigilante

 

Oliver didn't decide to save his city from the corrupt because Tommy died. He decided that before he even came back to Starling City and Tommy was very much alive. He changed his tactics when Tommy died but not his mission to save his city. So it wasn't Tommy's death that put him on his path. 

 

For Laurel she is only going to decide to help people because her sister died. No other reason, according to people saying Sara HAD to die for Laurel do bother doing anything. What a great hero. 

 

Then we have yet another vengeance motivated origin story. Which is again, why I liked Sara's, she wasn't motivated by revenge, she helped people just to help people. Her and Felicity are the only ones that have done that. That's what made them stand out to me. 

 

Plus this is the bitterness thread, where we are allowed to bitter and don't have defend ourselves why we are.

[Carrie Ann]

Here's the thing: Tommy didn't actually have to die to put Oliver on a better path. There are--as I keep saying because I'm so sad and bitter about Sara--numerous other narrative choices that could be made that could still have had impact on Oliver. He could have been gravely injured, and Oliver could still have been shocked into a new mental state. It could have been that Thea saw him kill someone, and was horrified and disgusted, and Oliver realized he couldn't be that person anymore.

 

No narrative choice is "necessary." They're all choices, and some are worse than others. I have no beef with their choice to kill Tommy because in my opinion (and this is probably not popular), he didn't serve much purpose anymore and I wasn't particularly interested in his journey. He wouldn't have been useful to Team Arrow, so he would have only been involved as a loved one of other characters. Which is fine, but not a great use of the show's budget, when they all have other good friends who are integrated into the storyline. Now they could have gone somewhere with him and Malcolm, I guess, but eh. Sara, on the other hand, was on a fascinating journey and was a complex character with all sorts of story to mine. But oh well, because she had the wrong name.

[KirkB]

As a writer myself, it kind of bugs me to hear people saying it was necessary or there was no other way. That's nonsense. In any story there is never one single way to do anything. Now for you as a creator, this choice might be the most satisfying one, the one truest to the narrative you are trying to tell, the one that fits your plots or needs the best, but I can't imagine there ever being a circumstance where they were only one possible way of doing something. "We need X to happen, and only thing in the entire history of creation that could possibly do it is Y." If you're creatively bankrupt enough that you can't come up with a half a dozen alternative methods of accomplishing a particular goal you probably shouldn't be in charge of story writing.

[poetgirl925]

If you're creatively bankrupt enough that you can't come up with a half a dozen alternative methods of accomplishing a particular goal you probably shouldn't be in charge of story writing.

^^ This is where I fear we are now. After the bloody ends Shado, Moira and Sara met in the last 15 episodes, it's like they think they have to kill people off in horrible ways to create more story. Maybe it wouldn't bother me so much if all three deaths had been spaced out more (or hell, if they'd been given a fighting chance.) Like others here, I felt pretty sure Sara's days were numbered because Arrow is laughably predictable that way. But the method and means of these women's deaths didn't honor the great characters they were, Moira being the exception since she chose to protect Thea.

[statsgirl]

When you have people like Alan Sepinwall say Emily Bett Rickards should be in contention for an Emmy, and reviewers rave about the character, I'd say she's doing pretty well.

 

I think Stephen Amell, EBR and Willa Holland (if they give Thea something juicy)  are the most likely break-out stars.  Amell has expressed an interest in directing so he may form his own production company and EBR has been writing scripts. I don't know about Willa Holland.  Colton Haynes seems pretty smart so while not a breakout star, he may use the show as a springboard up.  I can see Katie Cassidy as the new Heather Locklear.

 

I hope Stephen Amell is right and Caity Lotz will have another role in 5 minutes. 

 

I'm not sure that this applies entirely, because Laurel has been on the show from the start, so it's not like she's a true imposter, and I think a lot of people who don't care for her (and are probably ignorant of comics canon) will get behind her for avenging her sister's death. While I think AK and co. willfully had their heads in the sand regarding the audience not liking Laurel because they were anxious for her to put on the fishnets (I know this isn't a representative audience, but of the 8 people I got to watch the show, 7 of them didn't care for Laurel, and none of them even knew that she was supposed to become BC), I wouldn't be surprised if once she does, a lot of the general audience comes around. Not saying it will happen, but I think it's possible (and, IMO, likely).

I think most of the audience will accept Laurel as the Black Canary because most people don't care that much about what they're watching. As long as they're entertained and she's not the pebble in the shoe of the show, they'll accept it or fast forward through her scenes.

 

Of the 3 people I got to watch the show, no one likes Laurel and two of them keep hoping she's going to be off the show.

 

What I can't get my head around is that for people who seem so committed to making a high quality show, a mini-movie each week as they've said, that they can't see the problem that is Katie Cassidy's portrayal of Laurel, or that they are willing to live with it.

[wingster55]

She was nominated for the Teen Choice Breakout Star. So I think that gives her the title? Stephen Amell was already two huge shows before Arrow: The Vampire Diaries and Private Practice, and would have had an expanded role in Private Practice if it hadn't been for him getting Arrow.

 

No because I refuse to go by what the Teen Choice Awards say. (Also if I did, I'd say that Stephen was nominated for that award the year earlier)

I don't think many remember him from TVD (Aisha Tyler from that podcast interview last week didn't). 

 

When you have people like Alan Sepinwall say Emily Bett Rickards should be in contention for an Emmy, and reviewers rave about the character, I'd say she's doing pretty well.

 

He really said that? Wow. I usually agree with him but I can't there. 

I point to Smallville where Allison Mack's Chloe was a big breakthrough in her first real big role...hasn't helped her it seems.

Willa could be the dark horse...as far as I know she's the only one who worked this hiatus (although I wouldn't call her a break out because of the OC) 

Edited October 12, 2014 by wingster55

[MostlyC]

Let's stay on topic people.   Do not repeat your argument.  State your point, and move on.  Thanks.

[apinknightmare]

Willa could be the dark horse...as far as I know she's the only one who worked this hiatus (although I wouldn't call her a break out because of the OC) 

 

Emily did too, she filmed a movie called Brooklyn.

[statsgirl]

 

Willa could be the dark horse...as far as I know she's the only one who worked this hiatus 

Stephen Amell had two projects he was going to do but they both fell apart (all too common in the entertainment world).  EBR worked on the Brooklyn movie and did the international press tour with Colton Haynes.  The hiatus may be five months for the audience but it's only about three for the actors..

 

The more I think about that photo KC put out two days after the episode in which Sara died showing her being prepped for her Black Canary mask, the angrier I get.  Usually I try to differentiate the actor from their character but that is just so completely insensitive to the idea that some members of the audience bonded with Sara and are mourning her passing (because we do, we mourn even fictional characters).  No wonder her portrayal of Laurel ends up coming out Me! Me! Me!

Edited October 12, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

I think she's great at her strengths..but really it was this that kinda bothered me 

Lmao I think you went arguing about it the wrong way then. You should've argued that other actors like WH is doing something more than the show and that she could also be a breakout star (although she hasn't had the proper material to be the breakout star just yet. I see that changing soon), not trying to discount EBRs worthiness of the title because this argument doesn't lead anywhere. 

[HighHopes]

The more I think about that photo KC put out two days after the episode in which Sara died showing her being prepped for her Black Canary mask, the angrier I get.  Usually I try to differentiate the actor from their character but that is just so completely insensitive to the idea that some members of the audience bonded with Sara and are mourning her passing (because we do, we mourn even fictional characters).  No wonder her portrayal of Laurel ends up coming out Me! Me! Me!

 

That's currently how I am too. Over the summer Katie Cassidy spent much of her time posting photos of her working out and gaining muscle. She did this knowing that Sara Lance died in the premiere and she would be taking on the Black Canary mask. It just screams of tackiness to me. And then she posts that photo two days after the premiere. I understand that the actress was probably excited to start the role she signed on for? But to do so while bragging about the muscle she gained and bragging about the mask fighting just makes me even less excited for her.

 

And I know this is petty of me, but Katie Cassidy didn't even tweet a goodbye to Caity Lotz or her on screen sister. There was nothing from her about how sad she was to lose her Arrow Sister. Nothing. Instead we are bombarded with photos of her at the gym which had been retweeted by the Arrow Writers and EPs all summer.

 

How actors and actresses are in real life greatly shapes how I view their characters, especially in today's world of social media. And imo, if Katie Cassidy is aware of the dislike her character has she should be a bit more careful about what she posts and how she says things. I was honestly not that great of a Sara fan, but Caity Lotz seems to be a great person in real life, and gets along with the cast (so much so that she called EBR during one of the cons she attended) so while I didn't want Sara on my screen as much as she was in 2B, I also didn't wish for her to die.

[wonderwall]

And I know this is petty of me, but Katie Cassidy didn't even tweet a goodbye to Caity Lotz or her on screen sister. There was nothing from her about how sad she was to lose her Arrow Sister. Nothing. Instead we are bombarded with photos of her at the gym which had been retweeted by the Arrow Writers and EPs all summer.

To be fair, I don't think any of the actors on the show did this other than Stephen Amell who wrote a heartfelt note about losing CL from the show. 

[wingster55]

Emily did too, she filmed a movie called Brooklyn.

I stand corrected.

Stephen Amell had two projects he was going to do but they both fell apart

 

Unfortunate (and actually may be better for him to get a real break) but doesn't refute my point. 

 

 

Lmao I think you went arguing about it the wrong way then. You should've argued that other actors like WH is doing something more than the show and that she could also be a breakout star (although she hasn't had the proper material to be the breakout star just yet. I see that changing soon), not trying to discount EBRs worthiness of the title because this argument doesn't lead anywhere. 

You may have a point..though my intention wasn't to discount her...but to state it's a crap shoot...which really it is. 

[olicityfan25]

That's currently how I am too. Over the summer Katie Cassidy spent much of her time posting photos of her working out and gaining muscle. She did this knowing that Sara Lance died in the premiere and she would be taking on the Black Canary mask. It just screams of tackiness to me. And then she posts that photo two days after the premiere. I understand that the actress was probably excited to start the role she signed on for? But to do so while bragging about the muscle she gained and bragging about the mask fighting just makes me even less excited for her.

 

And I know this is petty of me, but Katie Cassidy didn't even tweet a goodbye to Caity Lotz or her on screen sister. There was nothing from her about how sad she was to lose her Arrow Sister. Nothing. Instead we are bombarded with photos of her at the gym which had been retweeted by the Arrow Writers and EPs all summer.

 

How actors and actresses are in real life greatly shapes how I view their characters, especially in today's world of social media. And imo, if Katie Cassidy is aware of the dislike her character has she should be a bit more careful about what she posts and how she says things. I was honestly not that great of a Sara fan, but Caity Lotz seems to be a great person in real life, and gets along with the cast (so much so that she called EBR during one of the cons she attended) so while I didn't want Sara on my screen as much as she was in 2B, I also didn't wish for her to die.

This is why I can't get into her character. It's a combination of writing, acting and all around being just annoying in the way she promotes herself. 

[calliope1975]

No narrative choice is "necessary." They're all choices, and some are worse than others. 

 

Absolutely. I hate that the EPs keep acting like there's only one way to tell a story, and three brutal deaths in 15 episodes is disconcerting. I'm not quite ready to stop watching, and I'm not sure when I'll reach that point. I suppose, like every other show, it will be when my ire is greater than my enjoyment. It's just frustrating because this is the first show in a long while that I became so passionate about, and seeing it repeatedly stumble when it has the potential to be great irritates the fuck out of me. 

[Danny Franks]

Absolutely. I hate that the EPs keep acting like there's only one way to tell a story, and three brutal deaths in 15 episodes is disconcerting. I'm not quite ready to stop watching, and I'm not sure when I'll reach that point. I suppose, like every other show, it will be when my ire is greater than my enjoyment. It's just frustrating because this is the first show in a long while that I became so passionate about, and seeing it repeatedly stumble when it has the potential to be great irritates the fuck out of me. 

 

The only time a narrative choice becomes "necessary" is when you've screwed up and written yourself into a corner. Which is pretty much what the writers of Arrow did, with Sara and Laurel. One was brave and heroic and altruistic and tough and sympathetic, and the other was selfish and bitchy and always seemed to think everything was about her. But the writers wanted the latter to be their heroine.

 

So the question has to be (and always has been), why didn't they write Laurel like they wrote Sara, from the beginning? Why didn't they write her as having the qualities that Sara ended up having? Or, a further question, did they write her like that and just couldn't convey it, or were they hamstrung by Katie Cassidy's limited ability to play anything much beyond 'self-obsessed bitch'? (That's not saying that Cassidy is that, but that it seems to be the only thing in her acting wheelhouse)

[MostlyC]

There's a lot of repetitive comments about the most recent events on Arrow.  If you've stated your position already then please move on from the topic. 

 

This is the second post about this issue today.  Further repetitive comments will be deleted.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm bitter that we had a five(?) month time jump between the seasons because we missed all development that happened between Oliver and Felicity in that time.  Going from season two finale where Oliver claimed his ILY to Felicity was just a ruse to "Don't ask me to say I don't love you" felt a little strange.  All of the touching, face holding, flirting, etc. made sense based on where Felicity and Oliver are now in their relationship, but it was a little strange based on where we left off at the end of season two.  I'm not complaining, mind you, I just am annoyed that we didn't get to see what happened in those missing five months.  Flashback, please.

 

I'm also bitter that they keep using the Olicity stuff as bait to get viewers.  I get why the EPs do that, but it annoys me and sometimes feels dishonest.  Guggenheim claimed in a recent interview that they didn't reset or pause the relationship, that the events of the first episode were just a development in the relationship.  Well, that feels kind of dishonest since from spoilers, it sounds like

Felicity will shortly be on a date with Barry and may begin a relationship with Ray Palmer.  I don't think Oliver and Felicity are done, but I don't imagine much Olicity development if Felicity is off dating other guys not named Oliver.  Besides, Oliver will look like a giant douche if he continues to flirt with Felicity after he just ended their relationship

Edited October 13, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[wonderwall]

Guggenheim claimed in a recent interview that they didn't reset or pause the relationship, that the events of the first episode were just a development in the relationship.  Well, that feels kind of dishonest since from spoilers, it sounds like

Felicity will shortly be on a date with Barry and may begin a relationship with Ray Palmer.  I don't think Oliver and Felicity are done, but I don't imagine much Olicity development if Felicity is off dating other guys not named Oliver.  Besides, Oliver will look like a giant douche if he continues to flirt with Felicity after he just ended their relationship

I think you've mistaken with this. From what I've heard,

Barry doesn't ask Felicity out on a date, Candice Patton said that Iris is the one who sets them up much to Barry and Felicity's chagrin. I think Barry will act as a sort of rebound for Felicity as an attempt to try to move on from Oliver

because, honestly, why should she stay miserably in love with him when she deserves more than that? Just because Oliver and Felicity's relationship are in the process of hitting several thousand road bumps doesn't discount how much they feel for one another. I think that we will see development between them regardless of who she's dating. But more importantly, I think we'll see individual development in regards to their relationship. Oliver will learn to find his humanity (most likely through Felicity), and Felicity will become a stronger more independent woman. 

As for Ray Palmer, it's not like Felicity is going to get together with him in season 3A. I think that Felicity is going to wait before she ever agrees to go out with him. I'm thinking they'll start dating by the end of season 3B and date for a few episodes then break up... 

[ban1o]

 

I'm bitter that we had a five(?) month time jump between the seasons because we missed all development that happened between Oliver and Felicity in that time.  Going from season two finale where Oliver claimed his ILY to Felicity was just a ruse to "Don't ask me to say I don't love you" felt a little strange.  All of the touching, face holding, flirting, etc. made sense based on where Felicity and Oliver are now in their relationship, but it was a little strange based on where we left off at the end of season two.  I'm not complaining, mind you, I just am annoyed that we didn't get to see what happened in those missing five months.  Flashback, please.

 

I'm also bitter that they keep using the Olicity stuff as bait to get viewers.  I get why the EPs do that, but it annoys me and sometimes feels dishonest.  Guggenheim claimed in a recent interview that they didn't reset or pause the relationship, that the events of the first episode were just a development in the relationship.  Well, that feels kind of dishonest since from spoilers, it sounds like

Felicity will shortly be on a date with Barry and may begin a relationship with Ray Palmer.  I don't think Oliver and Felicity are done, but I don't imagine much Olicity development if Felicity is off dating other guys not named Oliver.  Besides, Oliver will look like a giant douche if he continues to flirt with Felicity after he just ended their relationship

I agree so so much with this. I really wanted to see that development which is why  I felt some of their interaction was unnatural.  Like Felicity would never touch his cheek before. And to me it's evident they are using the relationship to bait viewers whichis why they had the date, the kiss, and the "I love you" thing all in the premiere." To try and hook viewers. at the premiere so they continue watching with hope they get together. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by ban1o

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think you've mistaken with this. From what I've heard,

Barry doesn't ask Felicity out on a date, Candice Patton said that Iris is the one who sets them up much to Barry and Felicity's chagrin. I think Barry will act as a sort of rebound for Felicity as an attempt to try to move on from Oliver

because, honestly, why should she stay miserably in love with him when she deserves more than that? Just because Oliver and Felicity's relationship are in the process of hitting several thousand road bumps doesn't discount how much they feel for one another. I think that we will see development between them regardless of who she's dating. But more importantly, I think we'll see individual development in regards to their relationship. Oliver will learn to find his humanity (most likely through Felicity), and Felicity will become a stronger more independent woman. 

As for Ray Palmer, it's not like Felicity is going to get together with him in season 3A. I think that Felicity is going to wait before she ever agrees to go out with him. I'm thinking they'll start dating by the end of season 3B and date for a few episodes then break up... 

 

Responding in Relationship Thread.

[wonderwall]

I agree so so much with this. I really wanted to see that development which is why  I felt some of their interaction was unnatural.  Like Felicity would never touch his cheek before. 

What I would GIVE to see what happened between those 5 months... Do you think we'll get mini flashbacks to those moments? Like the show will start to go back and fill in some  gaps in the duration of the season? 

 

Some parts of it were jarring. I would've liked to see more development from best friends to more than to full on relationship, alas, this is Arrow's style. They tend to fast track everything. 

[ban1o]

What I would GIVE to see what happened between those 5 months... Do you think we'll get mini flashbacks to those moments? Like the show will start to go back and fill in some  gaps in the duration of the season? 

 

Some parts of it were jarring. I would've liked to see more development from best friends to more than to full on relationship, alas, this is Arrow's style. They tend to fast track everything. 

yeah I think the show in general rushes plot points and fast-tracks relationships lol. I don't think we'll see flash backs but they claimed the development was in the 2.5 comics lol. I just think it was important enough to show a little bit on the show. Like although I get why they wanted it all in the premiere (to attract viewers and drive hype and such), I think it would have been a little bit better if everything that happened in the premiere-   more intimate interaction/wanting to ask Felicity out/asking her out/going on a date/pushing her away/kissing her/saying he loves her happened in a few episodes instead of in just the premiere lol. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by ban1o

[Kymmi]

What I would GIVE to see what happened between those 5 months... Do you think we'll get mini flashbacks to those moments? Like the show will start to go back and fill in some  gaps in the duration of the season? 

 

Some parts of it were jarring. I would've liked to see more development from best friends to more than to full on relationship, alas, this is Arrow's style. They tend to fast track everything. 

 

I'm bitter because I subscribed to the Arrow 2.5 comic because it was supposed to bridge "Unthinkable" with S3 present day.  So far the stories are interesting, but there's nothing so far that shows those 2 growing closer.  I apparently buy everything the EP's say is my learning from all of this.

[ban1o]

I'm bitter because I subscribed to the Arrow 2.5 comic because it was supposed to bridge "Unthinkable" with S3 present day.  So far the stories are interesting, but there's nothing so far that shows those 2 growing closer.  I apparently buy everything the EP's say is my learning from all of this.

lol well there are still a lot of issues left I think so maybe they will show more development in their relationship. 

[Password]

When I first heard Oliver would ask Felicity out in the premiere I was unnaturally pissed off. I thought they were taking away what I loved about the pair: watching them fall in love and grow closer. But I felt unreasonably happy about what happened in the episode. Although the face grab thing reminded me of what

Iris did did to Barry when she told him he needs a girlfriend.

But I really enjoyed seeing what they have the potential to become. They were basically acting married (seriously) and it was GLORIOUS. EBR and Stephen hit their marks so well it made me forget about Sara-gate and dinner-gate and tell-Roy-to-dump-Thea-gate and all those horrible Oliver moments in season 2 because they were just so darn adorable.

 

I think I read so much hiatus fanfiction that their progression to flirty-flirt and being a couple was seamless to me.

 

Count me in as one very interested to see where the season takes their relationship.

[wonderwall]

yeah I think the show in general rushes plot points and fast-tracks relationships lol. I don't think we'll see flash backs but they claimed the development was in the 2.5 comics lol. I just think it was important enough to show a little bit on the show. Like although I get why they wanted it all in the premiere (to attract viewers and drive hype and such), I think it would have been a little bit better if everything that happened in the premiere-   more intimate interaction/wanting to ask Felicity out/asking her out/going on a date/pushing her away/kissing her/saying he loves her happened in a few episodes instead of in just the premiere lol. 

That's exactly what I was thinking. I think it would've been better if they spanned this little arc over 2-3 episodes rather than 1. Hell, it would've worked better if it was a 2 hour season premier. I didn't mind all the touching because they touched all the time before (shoulder touches, cheek caresses, arm touches lol), but I wanted to see the 'love' part develop because I'm a sucker and I love a good pre-romance tease. 

 

Regardless, I still think Oliver/Felicity are one of the most developed relationships on the show. It took 2 seasons to get to where they are now and it's nice to see Oliver isn't instantaneously/randomly taking Felicity to bed as he has with every single one of his other relationships. I like this difference. I like that Oliver won't see other people because it would discount how he feels (unlike what they did with Laurel), and I like that they're being honest with one another from the get go. While yes, they did fast track the relationship, all the elements that make this relationship the best one on the show and what sets it apart from Oliver's other relationships are still there and didn't get lost between their transition from more than friends to full on romantic partners which is why you don't really see me complaining as much.