Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[wingster55]

Not trying to be snarky but wouldn't SA know better than anyone when he broke character for the first time and gave a genuine smile and not just a scripted one?

 

Not necessarily...sometimes actors just forget. Also, sometimes fans know/remember more about the show than actors or even writers. 

 

In that gifset above it seems pretty genuine to me...not a "smile at this moment because I'm supposed to" 

Edited September 17, 2014 by wingster55

[quarks]

So, having finally finished up the first season rewatch, I just want to repeat that I am incredibly bitter that we have lost manipulative, complex, commanding Moira Queen and kept Laurel. 

 

GRUMBLE.

 

Since I've brought Laurel up, though, I have to agree with JJ928 and Morrigan2575 that I don't see any signs that the showrunners love Laurel. Quite the opposite, in fact, something that started in the first season.  

 

Although she didn't take part in the action part of the pilot, Laurel was introduced as the major love interest and the clear second lead, and the kickass woman who would fight next to/with the Hood to bring down the criminals of Starling City.

 

As it turned out, however, Laurel was involved in the main or action plot in only seven episodes all season: Honor thy Father, An Innocent Man, Damaged (questionable; main plot only, not the action plot), Burned, Betrayal, Home Invasion, and Sacrifice. If you eliminate Home Invasion and Sacrifice, where Laurel isn't working with Oliver to bring down the bad guy, that's five. If you eliminate Damaged, where Oliver is using Laurel to create an alibi and also kinda making out with her, that leaves only four episodes where Laurel is actively working with the Hood to bring down bad guys. One of those episodes (An Innocent Man) ends with Laurel deciding not to work with the Hood; another (Betrayal) ends with Oliver deciding not to work with Laurel. That leaves two out of 23 episodes where Laurel ends up actively working with the Hood to bring down bad guys.

 

In the other episodes, Laurel often has no idea that an action plot is even going on. She is the only main cast member completely uninvolved in either of the main, season-long arc plots (the Undertaking/destroy China's economy) until Moira's press conference; even Roy, Felicity, Walter, Robert Queen and Frank Chen, all guest stars, have more of a connection to the main plot than the supposed second lead of the show. 

 

In contrast, Felicity is dragged into the main, season long Undertaking plot before most of the characters are even aware that there is a main, season long Undertaking part. She participates in action stuff in about the same number of episodes as Laurel does (Dodger, the Huntress Returns, Darkness at the Edge of Town, Sacrifice), but, and this is huge, all but one of these episodes (Sacrifice) ends with her agreeing to continue to work with Oliver (and in Sacrifice she's already made her "if you aren't leaving, I'm not leaving speech.)  And she's actively aware of/helping Oliver in several more episodes.

 

Why is this important? Because in action/superhero flicks, the (male) protagonist's main romantic interest almost always ends up being the woman he fights with or next to on screen, regardless of who he started with. And for most of the season, that wasn't Laurel. 

 

I bring this up mostly because I keep seeing arguments that:

 

1. The producers only decided to make Felicity a love interest in season two.

 

2. The producers love Laurel.

 

3. The producers are so wedded to their original idea of Laurel that they can't let go of it.

 

Regarding 3, they did: they cast off their entire idea of the hard working attorney defending the helpless and fighting next to Oliver's side for most of two seasons.  Which is not to say that they won't go back to it, but they haven't stuck to this so far. They also brought in another actress to play the Black Canary and gave her a major role and also made her one of Oliver's season two love interests. Regarding 2: generally speaking, when EPs love any particular character, they find a way to involve that character more, not less, unless it's a genuine ensemble show like Friends where all of the characters need to be more or less balanced. See, for instance, AoS, which has wrapped entire plots around Skye and Ward, whatever viewers might think about these characters.

 

And finally - yes, no question, the producers still had Oliver in love, or thinking he was in love, with Laurel in the first season, to the point of having them hook up and have nice dialogue about seeing the real Oliver and all of that.  But these guys also know their comic books and their films. They know that yes, in epic movies like Lord of the Rings or in fairy tales the protagonist/hero usually ends up with the girl he longed for as part of his reward.  But that in comic books and action/superhero films, he ends up with the woman he partners with.  And as far back as the first season, they changed that woman from Laurel to Felicity, and in the second season, to Felicity and Sara.  It's not just that Felicity has gotten all of the major romance beats; she's had the major role as well.

 

...this ended up getting really off track and also completely unrelated to the so, is this a real Stephen Amell smile or not?  But it's how I've been reading the first season. So to get it back to bitterness, I miss Moira. 

[Chaser]

@ blixie thats how I view it too. 

 

Its not that he wasn't smiling at his family, but there was always something behind the smile. Knowing how much thought SA puts into his character, it wouldn't surprise me if thats what he means. Though I would love someone to ask him.

 

BTW - I hope he is thinking of what a Dick he was pre-island in that gif

[statsgirl]

This smile/laugh right here looks very real to me:

To me it looks like Oliver is putting on a show to fool Tommy and his family so they don't find out.  Laugh, clown, laugh.

 

I don't think SA is lying.

Edited September 17, 2014 by statsgirl

[willpwr]

Not necessarily...sometimes actors just forget. Also, sometimes fans know/remember more about the show than actors or even writers. 

 

In that gifset above it seems pretty genuine to me...not a "smile at this moment because I'm supposed to" 

Except he's been saying that since the beginning so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that. I'll take his word about how he felt like smiling and couldn't help it when he was supposed to be serious. In that gifset with Tommy, they're joking around, he's supposed to smile, it's comparing apples and oranges IMHO.

 

As fans, we might keep better tabs on the storyline but we don't know really know how an actor feels unless they tell us. We can speculate and project our feelings as much as we like but we don't know it as a fact unless an actor confirms it in interviews. 

Edited September 17, 2014 by willpwr

[catrox14]

Call me crazy, but if a smile looks legitimately real that might, just might mean that Amell is a really good actor. I mean that is his job.  I think I trust the actor to tell me when he broke character vs when he was in character. And if he says he broke character with Felicity, I see no reason to not believe him nor do I think it really means anything as to why Olicity got a full head of steam.

 

Some actors just have better chemistry with other actors and clearly EBR and SA have it in spades.  IMO the show would be foolish to ignore that.

[wingster55]

Call me crazy, but if a smile looks legitimately real that might, just might mean that Amell is a really good actor. I mean that is his job.  I think I trust the actor to tell me when he broke character vs when he was in character. And if he says he broke character with Felicity, I see no reason to not believe him nor do I think it really means anything as to why Olicity got a full head of steam.

Some actors just have better chemistry with other actors and clearly EBR and SA have it in spades.  IMO the show would be foolish to ignore that.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not denying that Stephen broke in his first scene with Emily. My argument was that the character of Oliver was genuinely smiling before that scene. Not whether it was a genuine Stephen smile/laugh. 

 

Though I do disagree with "clearly" 

[statsgirl]

The question is, how was SA playing the Oliver smiles in the first two episodes?. Was he playing Oliver as genuinely smiling with Tommy, or was he trying to portray Oliver as playing a role of the prodigal son and friend while being shut-off and cold inside? 

 

Only SA can give the real answer to that.,

[strikera0]

Ok, I have looked up an example of the "smile" quote again and here, SA is saying that Oliver didn't smile at all until Felicity came onto the show, which simply isn't true (as proven by the gifset):
 

“We just talked about how much Laurel doesn’t know about Oliver but there’s a history there. With Felicity, there’s not necessarily a history but in terms of women in his life at present, she knows him better than anybody. Which is not saying a great deal but…I don’t know, I’m very touched that the internet has such a fascination and the fanbase has such a fascination with Felicity and Oliver and I think it really speaks to Emily Bett Rickards because when she first played the character in episode 3, I remember [Oliver] meeting her and coming around the corner – and we didn’t really rehearse full speed – so when I came around the corner and she did her whole [Felicity thing] I cracked a smile which may have been the first time my character had smiled in the entire show. So I give all the credit to her. The writers will do what the writers will do.”
 
Source

Edited September 17, 2014 by strikera0

[blixie]

 

Regarding 3, they did: they cast off their entire idea of the hard working attorney defending the helpless and fighting next to Oliver's side for most of two seasons.

 

I think they are invested in Dinah Laurel Lance becoming Black Canary, I don't think  they had any "idea" or conception of who Dinah Laurel Lance should be on this show and it....shows. The idea that they had any "idea" for her beyond donning a costume with fishnets sometime in the life cycle of the show is not plausible to me.  I don't think you pay someone lead actress prices if you want her to do the work of a fifth tier supporting character.  I think they feel *obligated* to Katie Cassidy/CW because of that contract, in terms of what KC was sold on to take the part, and because she's a CW pet. I think they expected everyone to love Laurel and embrace her, based solely on her name, her future persona, and some belief that KC is a wildly popular actress. When all of that blew up in their face, when bad writing, and poor planning, and miscasting, and weak chemistry all collided to create the void that is Laurel, they wisely latched on to the surprise chemistry and acting bomb they had in EBR/Felicity.

 

I think they want to give KC's Laurel every opportunity to win the audience over, but have learned NOTHING in three years about what that might take. I mean I hope I'm wrong and they can fix her, but there is so little evidence they actually think she's broken, they just think the audience is dumb and confused and will eventually embrace her, if they tell us enough times both on screen and off how awesome she is. Know when to fold them for fracks sake Team Arrow producers/writers.

[catrox14]

The question is, how was SA playing the Oliver smiles in the first two episodes?. Was he playing Oliver as genuinely smiling with Tommy, or was he trying to portray Oliver as playing a role of the prodigal son and friend while being shut-off and cold inside? 

 

Only SA can give the real answer to that.,

I agree with this 100%. But it seemed to me that the argument was that Amell was being insincere when discuss ing why he smiled with Felicity and he said it was because he broke character but that Oliver does smile more with Felicity in general

Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick

[wingster55]

acting bomb

 

I have never heard of this phrase in 25.75 years. 

[willpwr]

Ok, I have looked up an example of the "smile" quote again and here, SA is saying that Oliver didn't smile at all until Felicity came onto the show, which simply isn't true (as proven by the gifset):

 

"The first time I came around the corner, because we'd barely rehearsed, we did a quick run through, the first time I came around the corner and Emily reacted the way that she did, the smile that you saw from me was a total break of character, it was a totally legitimate, heartfelt, 'This is really funny.' To that point in the show, I'm not sure Oliver had smiled," said Amell. http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=47195

 

That quote gets changed around so often but in a lot of video interviews he pretty much says the same where he refers to it as a "genuine" smile. He also said "may" in the first quote and that he wasn't sure in the second about if Oliver had smiled before that. The key difference to me is his use of the word "genuine" which IMO, he would know best what's genuine and what isn't.

 

Honestly, I think the guy just gets too much flack sometimes, he can't please everyone but he's trying really hard to be positive and I appreciate that especially because everything he says gets dissected and scrutinized. 

Edited September 17, 2014 by willpwr

[wingster55]

It seems to me that by "legitimate" he means not acting. Which as I've stated...I agree.

But as for the first genuine smile Oliver had? I don't agree despite what Stephen said. 

[statsgirl]

Ok, I have looked up an example of the "smile" quote again and here, SA is saying that Oliver didn't smile at all until Felicity came onto the show, which simply isn't true

It's interesting that that's what SA perception is (because I don't think he's actively lying or trying to upset the fans because that would be stupid and counter-productive).

 

That leaves two out of 23 episodes where Laurel ends up actively working with the Hood to bring down bad guys.

I don't think it's necessary to have the lead female working with the lead male on cases, for example, Worf and Dax (one of my fave OTP's) often were involved in different storylines in an episode. The difference between them and and Laurel, however, is that we were always aware of how awesome Dax was.

 

I bring this up mostly because I keep seeing arguments that:

 

1. The producers only decided to make Felicity a love interest in season two.

 

2. The producers love Laurel.

 

3. The producers are so wedded to their original idea of Laurel that they can't let go of it.

 

Regarding 3, they did: they cast off their entire idea of the hard working attorney defending the helpless and fighting next to Oliver's side for most of two seasons.  Which is not to say that they won't go back to it, but they haven't stuck to this so far. They also brought in another actress to play the Black Canary and gave her a major role and also made her one of Oliver's season two love interests. Regarding 2: generally speaking, when EPs love any particular character, they find a way to involve that character more, not less, unless it's a genuine ensemble show like Friends where all of the characters need to be more or less balanced. See, for instance, AoS, which has wrapped entire plots around Skye and Ward, whatever viewers might think about these characters.

You make a lot of good arguments.  But

 

1.  If they are wiling to give up on their original vision of Laurel/BC, why don't they write to KC's acting skills?  She's good at the bitter, the snarky, the entitled, none of which belongs to the Dinah Laurel Lance who is trying to save the world that they keep feeding us.

 

2.  Why do they keep going out of their way to give Laurel more stuff so that we will love her?  The addiction arc was time that could have been spent on other characters (like Thea or Moira) since Laurel didn't really learn anything that changed her, it wasn't an island (in spite of what the EPs said),  and KC couldn't pull off the addict acting.  They told us that the ToD scene was 'Emmy worthy' and that we would love her for her actions when she found out who the Arrow was, and then they put her in the lair.  They must think highly of Laurel or else they wouldn't keep trying to make us love her.

[quarks]

I don't think  they had any "idea" or conception of who Dinah Laurel Lance should be on this show

 

 

I think the first two episodes did offer a pretty clear conception of Dinah Laurel Lance: a hard working attorney for a non-profit firm who had been badly hurt in the past, who covered up this hurt with anger, and who had never completely gotten over this betrayal - but somehow still managed to use the law to fight for justice for others. Presumably, the idea was that she would continue to work with the vigilante and slowly decide to use his methods, training her way into the fishnets.

 

The concept didn't work on Arrow, though - because a competent Laurel wouldn't need the help of a vigilante. So in order for Oliver to look good, Laurel had to look incompetent, which is exactly what happened in the first two episodes (and in episodes four, ten and thirteen). Which kinda sucks for your lead actress, not to mention that the Oliver Helps Laurel Win Another Court Case could only go so far - this is a soap opera/action show, not a procedural.  So this concept got dropped - and the evidence is, we've only seen it in four more episodes (An Innocent Man, Burned, Betrayal and Blind Spot.)  

 

but there is so little evidence they actually think she's broken,

 

 

I've noted this before, but I think there's a lot of evidence. 

 

1. They dropped the initial concept, tested it out a couple more times, then dropped it again. 

 

2. They've acknowledged her unpopularity in interviews. That's huge for a show that is still on the air.

 

3. On the show, they've taken her from having 10 to 15 minutes of screentime in the first few episodes to having limited to no screentime in most episodes, and shifted her from a major character to a minor character, significantly reducing her importance to the show, especially in relation to the characters who replaced her, Sara and Felicity.  They've kept her marginalized and out of the main plot lines - presumably to keep her character from interfering in these plots.  They've eliminated her from the love interest role.  That's not stuff you do if you don't see the problem.

 

Why do they keep going out of their way to give Laurel more stuff so that we will love her?  The addiction arc was time that could have been spent on other characters (like Thea or Moira) since Laurel didn't really learn anything that changed her, it wasn't an island (in spite of what the EPs said),  and KC couldn't pull off the addict acting.

 

 

My guess, because they want viewers to like their characters so they don't stop watching the show. Plus, making a hated character likeable is a major writing challenge, and writers often like challenges. Or at least claim to.

Edited September 17, 2014 by quarks

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

Honestly, I think the guy just gets too much flack sometimes, he can't please everyone but he's trying really hard to be positive and I appreciate that especially because everything he says gets dissected and scrutinized.

 

I think this is true for all the actors on the show.  No matter what they say, someone is going to take issue with it.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I think they are invested in Dinah Laurel Lance becoming Black Canary, I don't think they had any "idea" or conception of who Dinah Laurel Lance should be on this show and it....shows. The idea that they had any "idea" for her beyond donning a costume with fishnets sometime in the life cycle of the show is not plausible to me. I don't think you pay someone lead actress prices if you want her to do the work of a fifth tier supporting character. I think they feel *obligated* to Katie Cassidy/CW because of that contract, in terms of what KC was sold on to take the part, and because she's a CW pet. I think they expected everyone to love Laurel and embrace her, based solely on her name, her future persona, and some belief that KC is a wildly popular actress. When all of that blew up in their face, when bad writing, and poor planning, and miscasting, and weak chemistry all collided to create the void that is Laurel, they wisely latched on to the surprise chemistry and acting bomb they had in EBR/Felicity.

I think they want to give KC's Laurel every opportunity to win the audience over, but have learned NOTHING in three years about what that might take. I mean I hope I'm wrong and they can fix her, but there is so little evidence they actually think she's broken, they just think the audience is dumb and confused and will eventually embrace her, if they tell us enough times both on screen and off how awesome she is. Know when to fold them for fracks sake Team Arrow producers/writers.

Agreed. The larger issue is you can't keep rebooting a character. Arrow doesn't hold up well under marathon watching. Why? Because the whiplash is far worse when just twenty minutes ago the character was going a different direction. It will hurt them in the long run too.

[willpwr]

I think this is true for all the actors on the show.  No matter what they say, someone is going to take issue with it.

This is true but he, IMO carries more of a workload and responsibility. The guy has the toughest schedule and seems extremely committed to the show and doesn't just promote himself but is very complimentary towards his coworkers. I don't agree with everything he says but then again he's been pretty consistent about doing his best to try to improve the show and I admire that, especially since he seems to love his job and usually has a smile on his face. If he was all "me, me, me", had an attitude problem, didn't seem grateful for the opportunities awarded to him, seemed lazy as an actor or badmouthed his peers then I think it would be more understandable for people to accuse him of being selfish or having a God complex but the guy likes to spread the love and he always credits others for what he's learning. 

[tv echo]

At this point, I don't really care when Oliver first smiled or whether it was a genuine smile.  My impression of Stephen Amell is that he's grateful for his Arrow gig, he works hard to promote the show, and he genuinely tries to be nice to his fans.

[statsgirl]

Re-watching Sacrifice, the scene where Oliver tells Laurel that she's the only one who really knows him seems even more jarring than it was before because she doesn't know him, not his Arrow identity and even less who he is as a person.  And then it was reprised in s2 when Laurel told him that she knows him like she knows her own name (very well rebutted in the Olicity Humor #5 video).

 

I really don't get it, why they keep showing us she doesn't know him and then telling us she does.  It makes me dislike the character even more, and worse, not trust the show.

My guess, because they want viewers to like their characters so they don't stop watching the show. Plus, making a hated character likeable is a major writing challenge, and writers often like challenges. Or at least claim to.

And yet, after last season, more people are saying that if Laurel becomes the Black Canary, they are going to stop watching the show, now including people on comic book sites.

 

Given her positioning on the new poster, it looks like they are serious about making Laurel part of the team.  It seems the more people push against her, the harder they try to make her central.

[icandigit]

Here's a great master post of why Oliver/Laurel don't work. Tumblr drops the mike and walks off stage. http://stilettoroyalty.tumblr.com/post/97734404644/when-i-read-that-slade-tells-laurel-that-oliver

[quarks]

Given her positioning on the new poster, it looks like they are serious about making Laurel part of the team.

 

 

 

Well, although I don't think the poster means much - after all, last season they put Laurel next to Slade in the poster, and that ended up meaning absolutely nothing - I do think they are serious about making Laurel part of the team. This was indicated at the end of last season. Not so much from the episodes, but from various things said at publicity events - the cast pictures labeled "Team Arrow" that included Katie Cassidy, for instance, and Amell saying that Laurel would be very much involved. So this isn't a surprise. The actual surprise is that none of the released pictures so far  from the third season

have shown Laurel with most of Team Arrow - just Oliver and a hospital patient, and her leaked dialogue has involved Oliver and Sara and presumably Ted Grant.  

 (That's not very spoilery, but I'm trying to be careful.)

 

It seems the more people push against her, the harder they try to make her central.

 

 

Maybe? You could be very well be right, especially when it comes to the second half of the second season. But on a more optimistic note (I'm trying) there's a difference between making Laurel central, and making Laurel relevant. One of the severe issues of season two was that, except for Blind Spot and Birds of Prey, Laurel was essentially irrelevant to the main storylines until the last few episodes, which meant that the writers had a horrible time finding a reason for her to be on screen at all. Which in turn led to either Laurel getting kidnapped again, sigh, Laurel getting forced into legal roles that made no sense, sigh, or Laurel taking over the plots of other characters, sigh, or Laurel giving speeches, sigh. 

 

So it's possible that bringing Laurel into Team Arrow isn't necessarily to make her central, just relevant, and thus, easier to write for.  And Felicity, Diggle and Roy were all sidelined in several episodes last season despite being on Team Arrow, and Sara ended up leaving Team Arrow because...because....because Plot?   I have no idea what will happen this time, but given the way that Roy essentially vanished for several episodes after being brought into Team Arrow, despite his reported major international popularity, I don't think that Laurel being in Team Arrow necessarily means she'll be a center character. We've already been told that at least two episodes will focus on other characters.

 

And when viewers/critics pushed against Laurel after the first two episodes of the first season, the show did start sidelining her almost immediately - to the point of having not one, but three women find out Oliver's secret before she did.  When viewers continued to push back with "I can't see this woman as Black Canary," "I hate Laurel" and "Laurel is the worst," (all said in the first season), the show responded by bringing in another Black Canary.

 

The decision to give her a central arc again in during episodes 10 to 14 - well, I've heard scuttlebutt about this, and I have my own theories, but from just what was on screen, it seems to have been more an attempt to rehabilitate her character/get viewers to like/sympathize with her than an attempt to give her a central role, largely because she didn't end up with a central role except maybe in The Man Under the Hood and Birds of Prey - and the Birds of Prey was an attempt to sell the spinoff.

 

And for whatever it's worth - not much, I think - the preseason publicity really hasn't focused on Laurel. 

 

All that said, I'm braced for Laurel entering the Arrow Cave and annoying me, and I'm braced for a couple of Laurel centric episodes or episodes with a lot of Laurel - well, more than a couple. Based on the last two seasons I'd say six or seven, especially since episode nine will already be filmed before the season premiere even ends, so if viewers do react badly to Laurel 3.0, the show won't be able to react until episode 12 at the earliest.  But I don't expect her to be central for the entire season. 

[TanyaKay]

But on a more optimistic note (I'm trying) there's a difference between making Laurel central, and making Laurel relevant. One of the severe issues of season two was that, except for Blind Spot and Birds of Prey, Laurel was essentially irrelevant to the main storylines until the last few episodes, which meant that the writers had a horrible time finding a reason for her to be on screen at all. Which in turn led to either Laurel getting kidnapped again, sigh, Laurel getting forced into legal roles that made no sense, sigh, or Laurel taking over the plots of other characters, sigh, or Laurel giving speeches, sigh. 

 

 

Well if those attempts elicited sighs, the attempts where they shoehorned her in the plot elicited groans. In Blind Spots, she complained to The Arrow about being late (she had tried to arrest him a million times before that) and he was coming to help her at her request but she has to get her bitch on for whatever reason. Secondly, she wore a white coat for a stealth mission at night, that tells the viewers that either Laurel is really stupid or the costume department is really incompetent or the writers hate her.

In Birds of Prey, she did not recognize her sister (with a cleft on her chin that is most recognizable) just because her hair were a shade lighter and she wore a mask around her eyes.

The only good things about her in the finale episodes was that she was tranqed by Nyssa (I secretly cheered for Nysaa when that happened),

Honestly, I want the character of Laurel to stay as horrible as she has been because it is so much fun to bitch about it here. I am sure she will be just as annoying in future and people will continue to vent and cyberspace will remain glorious.

[dtissagirl]

The decision to give her a central arc again in during episodes 10 to 14 - well, I've heard scuttlebutt about this, and I have my own theories, but from just what was on screen, it seems to have been more an attempt to rehabilitate her character/get viewers to like/sympathize with her than an attempt to give her a central role, largely because she didn't end up with a central role except maybe in The Man Under the Hood and Birds of Prey - and the Birds of Prey was an attempt to sell the spinoff.

 

Are you able to share your theories? I'd love to hear them. :)

 

I can't help but wonder if they decided to give Laurel the drugs and alcohol storyline because KC showed up for S2 looking so gaunt. Because it makes no sense to me that 1. here's a character whose arc is about substance abuse, and 2. the A-plot of the entire season is a drug with extreme side effects. You'd think it'd be the perfect oportunity to connect storylines. Except never ever the two plots met, not even a little. They didn't even try to parallel Laurel's addiction to Slade or Roy or rando Stroke's descent into mirakuru crazytown.

 

And the way Laurel's arc was structured was really really weird: she was barely there in the first 9 episodes [she missed 2 eps, and in the two eps Laurel was supposed to be prominent, she ended up getting her thunder stolen by Sara in Broken Dolls, and by Felicity [and Malcolm] in State vs. Queen], then her addiction storyline ran its main course from Tremors to Birds of Prey, and after that Laurel had minimal narrative use again.

 

I get that these writers are terrible with plotting long-term arcs for more than 2 characters at a time, but everything looked way more disjointed for Laurel.

Edited September 17, 2014 by dancingnancy

[willpwr]

Wasn't she out 2 episodes due to something having to do with fashion?

[Morrigan2575]

Wasn't she out 2 episodes due to something having to do with fashion?

That was the explanations her fans gave for why she missed 6 & 8, that was never stated by the EPs or even the actress.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[ban1o]

Wasn't she out 2 episodes due to something having to do with fashion?

yeah I think she has some fashion site so asked to leave for it. That's what I read online anyway. 

Edited September 18, 2014 by ban1o

[Starfish35]

At least for 6 that makes sense, because they were shooting that during fashion week. 8...I have no idea what might have been going on then. But from a personal perspective she wasn't missed in either episode.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

Many of us didn't even notice she was missing from the episodes till it was commented on on-line.

Edited September 18, 2014 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

Yeah, I didn't notice until it was mentioned afterwards for both 6 & 8. It was like "oh right, Laurel wasn't there, was she? Forgot to notice." For The Promise, I think I knew beforehand for some reason that she wasn't going to be in that one.

Which leads me to point out....she was actually out three episodes, correct? 6, 8, and 15? 6 can be blamed on Fashion Week. But I don't know why the other two might have been, other than they couldn't find a way to work her into the episode.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Starfish35

[Morrigan2575]

There's no real evidence of that. She didn't have episodes off in S1 or S3 because of fashion week.

However, what the producers have said is that one of the lessons they learned from S1 is that they don't feel need to write a character into an episode just for sake of putting them in there.

Is it possible that they gave her off for fashion week? Yes. It's also just as possible that they didn't have a place for her in 6 so she was able to spend he full shoot at fashion week.

[Starfish35]

We don't know yet if she has episodes off in S3. She was at Fashion Week while episode six was shooting this year as well, so it's possible she might not be in that one either.

[wonderwall]

We don't know yet if she has episodes off in S3. She was at Fashion Week while episode six was shooting this year as well, so it's possible she might not be in that one either.

Yayyy!!! Salvation

[ban1o]

There's no real evidence of that. She didn't have episodes off in S1 or S3 because of fashion week.

However, what the producers have said is that one of the lessons they learned from S1 is that they don't feel need to write a character into an episode just for sake of putting them in there.

Is it possible that they gave her off for fashion week? Yes. It's also just as possible that they didn't have a place for her in 6 so she was able to spend he full shoot at fashion week.

Like Starfish said we don't know for sure how much she's in episode 6 and she was at fashion week during that time. And her fashion thing only started in 2013 I think. 

Edited September 18, 2014 by ban1o

[Morrigan2575]

We don't know yet if she has episodes off in S3. She was at Fashion Week while episode six was shooting this year as well, so it's possible she might not be in that one either.

Actually we do know, which is why I said she was in 306

she flew back and filmed at least one scene with JR Rameriz Friday Night/Saturday morning and apparently a scene with CL

[Starfish35]

Actually we do know, which is why I said she was in 306

she flew back and filmed at least one scene with JR Rameriz Friday Night/Saturday morning and apparently a scene with CL

First I've heard of it - must have missed that (obviously) - but good to know. Too bad, I had my hopes up. :(

Edited September 18, 2014 by Starfish35

[iluv2fly]

First I've heard of it - must have missed that (obviously) - but good to know. Too bad, I had my hopes up. :(

Yeah, pretty much dashed my hopes as we'll :/ Still counting on that cutting room floor though!

[Chaser]

RE: Time of Death: I didn't like that Diggle assumed Felicity was off because of Oliver getting together with Sara. I like that Felicity made it clear that it was her on concern over her place on the team. I just wish this didn't happen at the same time as O/S. 

 

Basically, I get want they were trying to do. Should have been written better.

[Password]

Basically, I get want they were trying to do. Should have been written better.

That's basically how I feel about the whole of 2b. I got what they wanted to do (except the Sara Oliver hookup which still baffles me) but the execution was poor.

[blixie]

 

I just wish this didn't happen at the same time as O/S.

I'm not sure when that should have happened then though? It's all kind of tied together, Sara had the LoA  issue hanging over her in prior BC/Arrow episodes, and also Roy wasn't around previously, it was important that Felicity felt left out because the team had expanded and four fifths of them were badass fighters contributing in ways she wasn't/couldn't. I think the only way it works is if you swapped Suicide Squad and ToD, and moved the Sara/Laurel reveal Sara/Oliver hook up to the already padded filleresque The Promise.

 

But I think they were feeling a lot of pressure to give KC work, they were paying her a lot of money to sit around and do not much of anything, and wanted to recenter/reinvolve her in the main plot lines after having ridden the back burn for most of 2A.

[statsgirl]

I think they were also trying to give  Felicity something to do since between Sara in the present, Slade arriving, Oliver sleeping with Sara, Laurel's addiction 5 episode tour and all the stuff in the flashbacks, Felicity was pretty much Garcia-d (Criminal Minds quirky tech girl, pretty much out of any storyline).  Diggle was having his Suicide Squad episode coming up so that would take care of him but with The Promise and all the Slade stuff, there wasn't much for Felicity till the finale episodes.

 

Good in theory, just not done well.

 

From the Spoiler thread:

I guess I just didn't like how they handled some things. That 'You're still cute' from Sara was pretty patronizing and I thought it was pretty mean to ask her why she was wearing her leather jacket in front of the guys. She could have taken her aside and asked her quietly. I really felt for her in that moment. Saying that, I wish she hadn't been wearing the jacket at all. It was really unnecessary.

 

I didn't hate the 'You'll always be my girl' moment as much as some but it was kinda awkward even though I understood what Felicity was trying to say. I think it was the way SA played it maybe? His smile was kind of condescending. I don't know. I think it was just another instance of them putting a screeching halt to the O/F relationship that had been building quite steadily in the beginning of the season. It was too heavy handed.

 

 

I wonder if it's because they were trying too hard to make the female characters up front and important so they over did it and it gets cringe-worthy.  ToD is good in theory but the execution was awful.

 

I liked that Felicity wasn't jealous of O/S (I read that as Operating System which makes sense for Felicity) but they tried too hard to make Sara, who was the alpha female at that point, be nice to Felicity with "you're still cute" and the leather jacket stuff (Show, stop it with the leather jacket scenes), and it came out condescending.  I think there would have been a problem anyway since many viewers had bonded with Felicity and then Sara came in and took over fighting and Oliver and then Felicity's field of science which would have been difficult enough to put in without resentment but somehow the way the episode came out just made it worse.

 

I don't know what SA was thinking about with :"you'll always be my girl", a scene which I LOATHED since they immediately cut to a scene where he was kissing Sara. It made Felicity into a total idiotic puppy dog, which I gather was the opposite of how she was supposed to appear in the episode.  If he was supposed to be jealous of Felicity spending time with Barry three episodes ago (and therefore awe of his feelings toward her), how could he be sleeping with Sara and still tell Felicity she's his girl?

Edited September 18, 2014 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

how could he be sleeping with Sara and still tell Felicity she's his girl?

I didn't see it as being meant in a romantic sense, so it didn't bother me in that regard. What bothered me about it was that it was patronizing! Literally. That's something a father would say to his daughter. Or in this case, big brother to little sister (I remember when they teased this bit of dialogue, I thought it was going to be Oliver to Thea.). Oliver didn't just friend-zone her with that comment, he little-sister-zoned her, which, coupled with the rest of the episode where I thought most of the time Felicity came across like a little kid trying to keep up with the big kids, left a very nasty taste in my mouth. Seriously, I hate this episode more than any other episode in the series so far. :(

It's not the implications for Olicity, because as I've said, I don't ship them. It was the sense that, at least for this episode, Felicity went from being a full equal and partner on the team to being the "mascot", for lack of a better word. It just really made me mad - still does.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Starfish35

[Password]

Speak the truth. ^^^^^

[statsgirl]

When MG first tweeted that line, I was really hoping that it was Oliver to Thea.  Said to Felicity, it little-sistered her.

 

I agree. Whatever the original intentions, the episodecame out looking like both Oliver and Sara were patronizing little Felicity.  Diggle was the only one who treated her as an adult.  That was a problem generally when Sara joined the Team, it was Oliver and Sara as Mommy and Daddy running things and Diggle, Felicity and Roy were like the teen squad.    The arrival of Slade on the scene made it worse because Sara was the only one who appreciated what a threat he was and who Oliver could talk to about him.

 

And how much do I hate that in Sucide Squad, when Oliver was so worried about what Slade would do to everyone he cared about, Diggle was the only one to whom it occurred that Felicity could be in danger.  Did Oliver even think to protect Moira and Thea or was that Diggle's idea too, to put a protection detail on them? 

[Password]

When MG first tweeted that line, I was really hoping that it was Oliver to Thea.  Said to Felicity, it little-sistered her.

 

And how much do I hate that in Sucide Squad, when Oliver was so worried about what Slade would do to everyone he cared about, Diggle was the only one to whom it occurred that Felicity could be in danger.  Did Oliver even think to protect Moira and Thea or was that Diggle's idea too, to put a protection detail on them?

I absolutely hated the "you'll always be my girl" thing. Up to that point I never felt that Oliver and Diggle indulged Felicity but that episode really made me go "wait what?"

ToD is really where Oliver's character started taking hits. It's not just that he was making awful decisions, but it was (perhaps unfairly) when he and Sara got together that everything went down the toilet. It was a bad decision to make and left a sour taste in my mouth that he was moping around with Sara and not giving a rats ass about Felicity. But then other than Diggle and Suicide peoples episode 16 didn't tell me much of everything.

[Angel12d]

Yeah, Oliver really did make some questionable choices in the mid to late s2 episodes. I could have excused his thing with Sara if it had just been a one night stand because they both needed comfort or whatever but a full blown relationship was just weird and wrong. I mean, they both felt so guilty about what they did to Laurel in the past and then just repeated it but it was even worse because not even a year before Oliver had slept with Laurel again. Ew. Just wrong on so many levels. I'm still not over Sara inviting him to a family dinner. Who does that? 

 

I also found Oliver quite stand-offish to Felicity in ToD which I thought was OOC of him tbh but they were really just trying to halt the progress that they'd made earlier in the season just so S/O seemed more palatable/made more sense. Of course it didn't but I think that's what they were trying to do. 

[NumberCruncher]

I also found Oliver quite stand-offish to Felicity in ToD which I thought was OOC of him tbh but they were really just trying to halt the progress that they'd made earlier in the season just so S/O seemed more palatable/made more sense. Of course it didn't but I think that's what they were trying to do.

Yep. Oliver in that whole episode seemed so OOC to me that the tension between him and Felicity screamed "Artificial plot contrivance 101". He never treated Felicity like that prior to jumping in bed with Sara. Like others have mentioned, the writers tried to save it all at the end with the "You will always be my girl" scene but it came off making Oliver look even more douchey, patting poor, drugged-up Felicity on the head.

[willpwr]

I didn't find the "you'll always be my girl" scene patronizing because Felicity said it first:

 

Oliver: You all right? Diggle had mentioned that maybe you were feeling…a little left out.

Felicity: What? No.

Felicity: I was just…use to being your girl.

Felicity: I mean, not your girl-girl.

Felicity: Your girl.

Felicity: I know it sounds like the same word, but it means something different in my head.

(Oliver cradles Felicity’s head)

Felicity: Mmm.

Oliver: Hey.

Felicity: Hmm?

Oliver: You will always be my girl, Felicity.

 

I also didn't find Sara to be patronizing because honestly, loopy Felicity was pretty damn cute. There's certain people that just have that quality that make you smile and I see Felicity as having that quality and sometimes around those people, comments that might normally seem condescending are just people blurting something out without thinking. IMO sometimes "you're cute" means just that, with no qualifier.

[statsgirl]

Yeah, Oliver really did make some questionable choices in the mid to late s2 episodes. I could have excused his thing with Sara if it had just been a one night stand because they both needed comfort or whatever but a full blown relationship was just weird and wrong. I mean, they both felt so guilty about what they did to Laurel in the past and then just repeated it but it was even worse because not even a year before Oliver had slept with Laurel again. Ew. Just wrong on so many levels. I'm still not over Sara inviting him to a family dinner. Who does that? 

 

I also found Oliver quite stand-offish to Felicity in ToD which I thought was OOC of him tbh but they were really just trying to halt the progress that they'd made earlier in the season just so S/O seemed more palatable/made more sense. Of course it didn't but I think that's what they were trying to do. 

I hadn't thought of that but yeah, since both Oliver and Sara felt so guilty about what they had done to Laurel in s1 and s2A, to get together just for a FWB relationship is a really stupid thing to do. If they had both had feelings for each other and wanted to work things out, it would have been different but all the show gave us was FWB.

 

I don't think that Oliver was just stand-offish to Felicity, I think he was pretty much of a dick to her (the whole 'why are you wearing work-out gear and trying to up your self-defense skills when your job is to sit at the computer' still makes me hate him a bit) through all those 2b stories, or at best she was part of the office supplies.  I don't think they got back to their old Team Arrow relationship till Seeing Red, 7 episodes later.

 

He wasn't great to Diggle either those episodes but they're not trying to sell us on an Oliver/Diggle romance.

 

 

(Oliver cradles Felicity’s head)

Grrr. Why was Oliver cradling Felicity's  head?  That's something that's okay when she's just been tied up (The Huntress Returns) or gone through a glass window (City of Heros) but not when she's loopy on drugs.  It seemed next door to patting her like a puppy.

 

 

IMO sometimes "you're cute" means just that, with no qualifier.

She is cute, loopy or sober.  But normally, people don't say that to another adult unless you're asking for an opinion on what you're wearing and whether you'll be okay on that date, so in the context of Felicity desperately trying to fit in with her former Team mates and the woman who just joined the lair and connects better with them than she does, the words come off patronizing.

 

Add in the deleted scene where Felicity tells Sara that this is the first place she's come to feel as 'home', and it becomes poignant.

Edited September 18, 2014 by statsgirl