Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Danny Franks]

So that's what I needed to say. Instead of going wrathful on the show in every thread, I'll just have to stop watching it. If a person had betrayed me the way Arrow did (lol) I'd cut them out of my life. So, goodbye and good luck, Arrow. I just hope that nobody minds me occasionally joking about the show even though I'll be terminally behind on it.

 

Don't worry, you're in the same boat as me. I'm not watching this car crash of a show any more, because I simply cannot stand the thought of seeing characters I liked either killed or reduced to romance trope contrivances.

 

But I fully intend to hang around and snipe from the sidelines about the awfulness of the EPs' choices and their insistence on throwing Katie Cassidy in front of the camera. And I find it amusing, in a very bitter way, that so many people who did love the show are now so angry about it, and either quitting or considering quitting. It tells me that I'm not unusually sensitive to the shitty direction the show has taken.

[writersblock51]

So that's what I needed to say. Instead of going wrathful on the show in every thread, I'll just have to stop watching it. If a person had betrayed me the way Arrow did (lol) I'd cut them out of my life. So, goodbye and good luck, Arrow. I just hope that nobody minds me occasionally joking about the show even though I'll be terminally behind on it.

 

 

Do we need to start an Arrow Watchers Anonymous?  JayKay, Danny Franks,and everyone else who has stopped watching but still writes great snarks. Don't go!  I enjoy reading your posts, and they give me a reality check when the show's delusion gets too much.

 

I like reading all the posts because the variety of perspectives helps me stay grounded to what I like, dislike and expect from the show - and that there are some very funny, intelligent and articulate fans here who share what they're feeling too.

 

I am not enjoying much about this season so far and i hope things improve.  I don't want to give it up entirely because it's the 1st show since "Chuck" that I actively discuss online about. 

 

I hope no one truly leaves the board but I do understand and respect everyone who decides to stop watching.  The show is on DVR support for me at this point. I used to watch with my husband & son, they're not watching any longer.  (though my son watched "Corto Maltese" today  - but he's so annoyed with Laurel that I don't think he's watching next week at all)

 

I realize that the direction that the show is taking with Laurel has support among some fans.  I'm not one of them.  And that's for many reasons but not the least of which is the still very recent bitterness about how Sara's entire duration on the show was handled.  "Bait & Switch" is a perfect term for it, in my opinion.

[tessaray]

I'd probably join an AWA group.  Well, except that I can't bring myself to even hate watch S3 yet.  I did find the (excellent) Killing Tommy flashback clips on YT but it only made me sad that one character (okay, 2 - 1 living, 1 dying) could keep me from a show I had so much fun watching.  :-( 

 

I could have made peace with Sara's fate if they had kept Laurel low key.  I made the mistake of watching the promo of Laurel at the gym with the "learn to fight" brochure.  KC does not have a very likeable screen presence. IMO, of course.  I know some people like her but it seems to be more the case of liking the actress, not the character.

[Morrigan2575]

What did they used to say at TWOP? Come for the show, stay for the snark?

I'll continue to comment on everything but the episode thread since I'm not watching. However, I will watch 305, 108 and 308 so ill have some comments on those.

Losing fun aspects of fandom to bitterness and fear makes me bitter but that's what happens when producers break trust.

[pootlus]

I'm bitter than I'm actually seriously tempted to read spoilers just so I know if I have anything to look forward to.  What makes me extra bitter is that I was at this stage in Buffy S6 after episode 1, I read spoilers and...stopped watching.  I love most aspects of Arrow, but the bad is making me rage so much that I can't get past it to enjoy the good.

[Zalyn]

I'm bitter than I'm actually seriously tempted to read spoilers just so I know if I have anything to look forward to.  What makes me extra bitter is that I was at this stage in Buffy S6 after episode 1, I read spoilers and...stopped watching.  I love most aspects of Arrow, but the bad is making me rage so much that I can't get past it to enjoy the good.

I've actually been checking out the episode discussion before watching the episode; my friend warned me about the season opener, so that started me on that trend.  This past episode, I cared so little that I just put it on while I played computer since I didn't feel like dedicating full attention and emotion to what was going to be unsatisfying. I'm bitter because I don't feel enough trust to let myself be disappointed again.

[olicityfan25]

I'm bitter that a piss poor actress/character is taking away screen time from others who are more talented, better characters.

[TanyaKay]

I wish TIIC come and see that Laurel, her story arc and her screen presence is turning away solid fans from a show they used to love. SAD.

[quarks]

What I'm worried about is not that they are setting up an Oliver/Laurel romance right now (it's too soon since he's supposed to be in love with  Felicity (which is also why the The Calm numbers are an outlier) but that they are setting up Laurel to be the de facto leading lady (with a possible Oliver relationship in s4 or 5).

 

 

Fair enough. But what's odd is that although it would make sense for them to do this - she is still credited as the lead, after all, and Oliver and Laurel are still comics canon - that doesn't seem to be what's actually happening.

 

1. After giving her something plot relevant in the first episode, and, shockingly, actually tying her into the main plot in the second episode (something that rarely happens with Laurel), in the third episode, she was, once again, not part of the main plot or tied to any of the overall season arc plots.

 

2. The kick-ass, trained action role went to Thea, not Laurel.

 

3.  For the Rival Love Interest, the show hooked Felicity up with a movie star, and Laurel with an unknown actor.  Routh is signed up for 14-16 episodes; unknown actor is here for 3 episodes.

 

4. Even including her major screentime in "Sara," (by far the most she's had per episode since the first season), Laurel still is averaging less screentime than she did in the comparable first three episodes of seasons 1 and 2.  Felicity is still averaging far more screentime than Laurel has, so far.

 

5. Inexplicably, outside of the group scenes in "Sara," the show is once again barely allowing Laurel to interact with the rest of the cast except for Oliver and Quentin onscreen (the Felicity stuff was on the phone.) For the most part, the show is having Laurel go off on her own - even in "Sara."

 

So for me, it's aggravating in the other direction - given that the entire point of killing Sara was to allow Laurel to become relevant and part of the show again, then, you know, make that death worthwhile. I'm not particularly worried about Oliver/Laurel rekindling things. I am concerned that Laurel will continue to be a dead weight on this show. Granted, this is the same show that turned Roy into a hero and turned Thea into a ninja, so positive things could be happening. Maybe.

 

While I'm complaining, I'm also not thrilled to see a certain - how do I put it - if Felicity and/or Sara got to do X, then Laurel should get to do X too.  That already seemed to happen a couple of times last season, and it seems to be happening again this season.  I'm really hoping I'm wrong here.  

Edited October 25, 2014 by quarks

[bravelittletoaster]

I've stopped watching, but I'll continue to drop in here to see what I would be bitter about if I were watching.

 

Any comic book fans I know (and I am one myself) who have watched Arrow were perfectly fine with Sara as Black Canary. They welcomed it, because she was badass and hot and capable and sympathetic.

 

I relate to your priorities.  And can't understand why someone wouldn't want that on their show anymore.  sniff.

[statsgirl]

So for me, it's aggravating in the other direction - given that the entire point of killing Sara was to allow Laurel to become relevant and part of the show again, then, you know, make that death worthwhile. I'm not particularly worried about Oliver/Laurel rekindling things. I am concerned that Laurel will continue to be a dead weight on this show. Granted, this is the same show that turned Roy into a hero and turned Thea into a ninja, so positive things could be happening. Maybe.

I agree with most of your post, it's frustrating and bitterness-inducing.  What I  disagree with is that the point of killing Sara is to allow Laurel to become relevant to the show.  I think the point of killing Sara is to let Laurel ascend to being the Black Canary without any other possible alternative.  (While I'd prefer Sin or even Thea as the BC, I don't think that's going to happen.)  

 

If they had wanted to make Laurel relevant and part of the show, they could easily have done it with her as a lawyer, 'cooking' what Oliver and Team Arrow catch.  She could have brought them cases that she can't deal with legally as a ADA, she could have provided information they would have difficulty getting otherwise, she could have been down in the lair advising them about the law and ways that she could get the guys if they got 'X' information instead of just generally arrowing them or blowing them up.

 

I'm sure other people here could come up with other ways to integrate Laurel into the 'A' plot without killing Sara.

 

So looking at what they are doing on the show, it seems like they want Laurel to be the Black Canary without being integrated into the show.  (I'm fine on that last part, I don't want her calling Felicity at all hours to do jobs for her.)  I don't know why, if it's a good character played by a capable actress, why not have her integrated, and if it's now, why have her on the show at all much less taking up this much time?   Especially when there are other characters I'd rather see.  And since they seem unable to integrate Laurel into the show generally, she remains at best a counterweight.

 

Who are they trying to appease?

Edited October 25, 2014 by statsgirl

[FurryFury]

What makes me extra bitter is that I was at this stage in Buffy S6 after episode 1, I read spoilers and...stopped watching.  I love most aspects of Arrow, but the bad is making me rage so much that I can't get past it to enjoy the good.

 

As much as I hate Buffy s6 (and seriously, I hate it loads more than anything about Arrow, Laurel included, simply because I care about that show so damn much in general), it has some really, really good episodes despite the trainwreck of the arc/character development. If Arrow ever had anything approaching Once More With Feeling or Normal Again in quality, I probably wouldn't be so quick to drop it. But, in essence, it's just a popcorn superhero show without much substance. There was a period I strongly felt it was trying to be more, that it could have been more... but that potential has never been realized. Sara's appearance coincided with that spike up in quality, not to mention she was a female action hero whom I could strongly relate to and root for (action girls are my thing - Felicity's nice and all, but I could never imagine a long enough story with her as the protagonist. With Sara, it wasn't difficult at all). I actually made the decision to drop the show even before 3x01 aired, because that scene in s2 finale with the jacket sealed the deal for me. But I still wanted to hope it wouldn't end this way. Sara's death is far from the only problem I have with the show (I feel that Oliver's a hypocritical jackass, Slade and his arc were completely ruined, Shado and Moira's deaths enraged me and the less said about Laurel the better), but it was the final nail in the coffin.

 

I still check this thread out from time to time because it warms my black, hateful heart that I'm not the only one pissed at the recent (and not-so-recent) developments on the show.

[NumberCruncher]

So looking at what they are doing on the show, it seems like they want Laurel to be the Black Canary without being integrated into the show. (I'm fine on that last part, I don't want her calling Felicity at all hours to do jobs for her.) I don't know why, if it's a good character played by a capable actress, why not have her integrated, and if it's now, why have her on the show at all much less taking up this much time? Especially when there are other characters I'd rather see. And since they seem unable to integrate Laurel into the show generally, she remains at best a counterweight.

Who are they trying to appease?

The comic book canon fans. One thing I've definitely noticed on other more comic-centric websites is that even if they think that either the character or the actress has been weak thus far, a lot of posters want Laurel to have something more substantial to do for no other reason than "because she's Black Canary". They see it as just as important as Clark Kent's alter ego as Superman. I think AK follows that line of thinking as well (although to his credit, at least he doesn't cling to GA/BC as soulmates "canon" like other comic aficionados often do). It comes off--at least to me--as really important to these fans, and as such, I think the EPs recognize that too.

[writersblock51]

I've also seen many comments from some comic book fans who are convinced that Laurel will get the metahuman canary cry to differentiate her from Sara's BC. 

 

(as if the cry would be the only difference........./eye roll)

 

I've also seen and been engaged in 'discussions' on the Arrow FB page some fans adamant that Laurel is the 'real' Black Canary because of her name and because the EPs promised that was her journey in Season 1.

The inheritance angle is also referred to many times by these fans.

 

So I think the EPs are trying to appease that group of fans.

[statsgirl]

I've also seen many comments from some comic book fans who are convinced that Laurel will get the metahuman canary cry to differentiate her from Sara's BC. 

Does that mean someone will be doing some genetic engineering on her?  

 

In that case, I say Go for it!

[Genki]

I've also seen many comments from some comic book fans who are convinced that Laurel will get the metahuman canary cry to differentiate her from Sara's BC. 

 

I hope so…because there is the "No powers on Arrow" rule.

So make her Metahuman, give her the canary cry and get her off Arrow

[writersblock51]

I hope so…because there is the "No powers on Arrow" rule.

So make her Metahuman, give her the canary cry and get her off Arrow

 

Ah, but when I've mentioned that, I've been told *by other comic book fans who are attached to Laurel being BC* that the show isn't 100% against using superpowers. It's much like it's not a rule as much as it's a guideline.

 

I'd love for Laurel to get whatever she needs to leave Starling City and hence, "Arrow."

[TanyaKay]

Send her to Lian Yu to keep an eye on Slade.

[Starfish35]

I am still kind of hoping they will make her Black Canary and then write her off the show. I really don't know what the chances of that are, but oh well. I won't watch again unless/until she's gone. :( Yes, I'm very very bitter. LOL.

[JenMcSnark]

Rewatching S1 and I find myself very bitter about one person.  Surprisingly not Laurel.  Or Tommy.  

 

I want Walter back. 

 

He added so much to this show.  And frankly, his relationship with Thea is just wonderful and, IMO, necessary.  It would be a magnificent storyline for him to return out of concern and love for Thea and have him and Malcolm clash over her.  Although Malcolm would probably just kill him now that Moira isn't there.  *sigh*

[insubordination]

Agreed. Colin Salmon has great screen presence. I was highly disappointed when he and the X-files guy came back to run Moira's campaign. It seemed out of character. What was that all about?

[writersblock51]

Sara is going to be in the Arrow 2.5 comics and also in flashbacks on the show.

 

What is the point now?  Really?  I don't understand the reasoning behind any of this when remembering she was sucker punch killed, hit a dumpster and then stuffed in a freezer.

 

Still so bitter about this.  And I think any exposition that links Sara to her killer to Ra's coming to town can be handled by Nyssa and others.  Anytime Sara is on screen now just makes me want to make voodoo dolls of the EPs and KC and stick pins in all of them.

Edited October 28, 2014 by writersblock51

[statsgirl]

These EPs think that if they put Sara in flashbacks, it will make up for killing her three ways.  They just don't get it.

[Pyramid]

These EPs think that if they put Sara in flashbacks, it will make up for killing her three ways.  They just don't get it.

Yup, it's like they're going "here's what you could've had, suckers! Dance as we dangle a favourite character before your eyes. Now you see her, now she's stuffed in a fridge."

I don't see what they expect to achieve. It also just highlights the poor substitute we've been given in her place.

[icandigit]

Well I guess the show runners have achieved their goals. I don't want Oliver anywhere near Felicity. I don't want 50 shades of Ray near Felicity. I don't want to watch Oliver because Laurel may be there. I don't get to see Sara wield her bowstaff like a boss.

[Happy Harpy]

I've also seen many comments from some comic book fans who are convinced that Laurel will get the metahuman canary cry to differentiate her from Sara's BC. 

 

(as if the cry would be the only difference........./eye roll)

Yeah, the very thing that Laurel needs is to sound ridiculous. And foreign to the concept of the show. I mean, more than she already is, on both counts. #bitterdom

 

Oh, then it means that Laurel is so inadequate and inept as the Black Canary as she is, that she would need a superpower is order to pick up the jacket, er, mantle from her non-metahuman sister? Color me shocked! #sleepless and bitter

[A Cunning Stunt]

I've also seen many comments from some comic book fans who are convinced that Laurel will get the metahuman canary cry to differentiate her from Sara's BC.

 

I think I read speculation on her getting the cry due to some incident during a Flash crossover - I will be bitter if that occurs & they don't keep her on that show as I like that generally there aren't superpowers on Arrow. Although, I would be totally down for it if the pitch makes her head explode the 1st time she tries it.

 

I'm bitter:

• Over the way they executed Sara's death. Still. Always.
• That Moira is gone. I understand why they went the way they did, but I enjoyed having older & more seasoned cast members. There's not really anyone filling that role &
  I haven't seen anything to indicate Mama Smoak is staying around

• Lack of Walter as above.
• Foundry/Team Arrow scenes being parts of the show I might now have to consider fast-forwarding through due to Laurel.
• That the Blu-ray gag reels haven't been longer - there must be a tonne of Foundry Friday material alone. I want to see it!

[Pyramid]

I'm bitter Moira's gone as well, I was intrigued to see more of her and Felicity interacting, especially if she found out Felicity was working with the Arrow.
But you know, her death opened so many story possibilities and in no way shut a fucking ton of them down.  Much the same as Sara's death.

[MostlyC]

Remember folks, what is going to happen, or what you fear will happen belongs in either the spoiler thread or the unspoiled speculation thread.

 

We only bitterly post about things that have already happened on the show here. 

[A Cunning Stunt]

I'm bitter Moira's gone as well, I was intrigued to see more of her and Felicity interacting, especially if she found out Felicity was working with the Arrow.

But you know, her death opened so many story possibilities and in no way shut a fucking ton of them down.  Much the same as Sara's death.

Moira was played so well - not a nice or ethical woman, but I couldn't help but enjoy her. Sara's death differs for me in that throwing Laurel off the rooftop could have yielded just as many storytelling opportunities for season 3.

 

Actually I would add using death as an easy crutch for motivating characters to my bitter list above. It's becoming the go-to mechanism for TPTB to fall back on in lieu of trying to write more creatively.

[statsgirl]

Actually I would add using death as an easy crutch for motivating characters to my bitter list above. It's becoming the go-to mechanism for TPTB to fall back on in lieu of trying to write more creatively.

Do they have any other?  Traumatize Oliver so that he wants to honor his father?  Have Robert blow out his brains while sitting right beside Oliver. (Image the trauma of having bits of Robert's skull and grey matter all over him.

 

Want to turn Oliver into an archer?  Have Fyers shoot Yao Fei in front of him.

 

Want to motivate Slade to revenge and Oliver to putting on the hood?  Have Ivo shoot Shado.

 

Want to turn Olvier from a killer to a hero? Kill Tommy.

 

Want to motivate Oliver to giving up to Slade? Kill Moira.

 

Want to end Olicity before it began?  Kill the people in the restaurant.

 

Want to motivate Laurel to becoming the Black Canary?  Kill Sara.

 

Felicity is lucky, her motivation came from Walter's kidnapping.  For Oliver, every motivation comes from death.

[Danny Franks]

^ Felicity has one family member that we know of so far. Wonder what'll happen if she needs some sort of push back towards the vigilante life, if a life of (relative) normality with 50 Shades beckons....

 

I find the idea of them bragging about Sara's role in the comic books quite hilarious, really. It shows just how far away they are from getting it. Try to say that Sara fans will love it is just insulting, given the way they showed their own utter contempt for the character. In fact, I kind of doubt many Sara fans love much of anything about the show, right now. And trying to encourage those people to buy the shittily drawn, badly written comic book tie in, on the back of Sara's reanimated corpse, is completely lacking in class. They should be ashamed.

[statsgirl]

From the spoilers thread:

It must've taken Laurel a really long-ass time to get Sara down to the foundry, since it was already morning the next day (or even afternoon) and Oliver and Felicity had already changed clothes.

Did she have to clean up the concrete where Sara fell too cuz there was a lot of blood there and she never called the police.  (bitter)

 

I'm also bitter that Oliver never bothered to tell Felicity that Barry had woken up and had super powers, she found out by listening in on his phone call. Given all that time Felicity spent by his bedside, all those visits Oliver resented, I would have thought that at least Oliver would tell Felicity Barry had woken up. Especially since he'd just dumped her.

[quarks]

I can see three reasons why Oliver didn't:

 

1. He felt it wasn't his secret to tell.

 

2. He knew she was listening anyway, so he didn't need to tell her.

 

3. He felt she'd rather hear it from Barry, not from him.

 

That said, honestly I think the real issue there wasn't the Oliver/Felicity part, but that they filmed the Flash pilot before they knew for certain what exactly would be happening in the Arrow premiere.  (I'm not convinced, for various reasons, that they knew when Sara would die back when they wrote/filmed the Flash pilot.)  They then decided - correctly, I think - not to write the Arrow premiere around the Flash cameo, but just try to squeeze it in. And there, things get tough. Put it in the first part of the episode, and naturally, you'd expect Oliver and Felicity to discuss the not so small fact that another metahuman is around.  Put it after their breakup kiss, though, and the first person Oliver hears from is a guy that Felicity could really, really go for....while creating a situation that forces Oliver to head back to the Foundry to put on his costume while Felicity listens in (I guess it's automatic that she listens in whenever he's Arrow) while ALSO explaining why he wasn't around for Sara's death....well, it's clumsy, but I guess it's something.

 

I'm not sure when Laurel brought Sara's body in, though. Oliver went to talk to Barry.  Presumably after this conversation Felicity returned home; Roy was already home, I guess, and then they met up with Oliver and started walking down the stairs and...I probably shouldn't try to think this through.

[Chaser]

There was a Massive Logic Fail regarding all that. I'm picturing the Eps and writers texting each other 'OOPs' back and forth. Seriously guys? You never figured out the timing or how Felicity found out (comms or blog)?

[statsgirl]

2. He knew she was listening anyway, so he didn't need to tell her.

But it wasn't a comm, it was his personal phone, the one he was trying to reach Thea on.  I hope Felicity isn't listening in on all his personal phone calls, that would really be some boundary issues.  And if it was the comm in his Arrow suit (seriously, why did he have to change, couldn't he have talked to Barry in his Oliver Queen clothes?), why would she have gone back to the lair to listen in when he was having a conversation with Barry?  It's a guy asking for Oliver's advice, not a potential villain.

 

I think it could have been handled better and more easily by having Felicity say that Oliver had told her, rather than saying that she overheard  his conversation with Barry.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

 

I'm not sure when Laurel brought Sara's body in, though. Oliver went to talk to Barry.  Presumably after this conversation Felicity returned home; Roy was already home, I guess, and then they met up with Oliver and started walking down the stairs and...I probably shouldn't try to think this through.

I figured that after they saved the bad guys at the arena, Roy went home and Oliver went to the hospital to see the Digglet.  Then they all went home to sleep and got together in the morning at Verdant.  Going back to Verdant that night doesn't make sense to me since they had got the bad guys and things were presumably quiet.

Edited October 29, 2014 by statsgirl

[writersblock51]

I wonder if Felicity - much like some of the fanfic I've read - has Arrow-tech at home as well, including access to the comms.  She wouldn't then NEED to be in the foundry to keep an ear out on things...

 

Coming over from the Relationships Thread... discussion on the development of Felicity on the Flash episodes compared to what we've come to learn about her on 2 seasons of Arrow...

 

I think the Flash afforded us a quick resume rundown that had been missing from Arrow.  Her time on the episode ended with insight into her feelings about Oliver.

 

A few thoughts about these:

- the resume... We knew she'd gone to MIT.  It would not have been time consuming for her very impressive credentials to be brought up prior to the final episodes of Season 2.  Her appeal to Oliver in the backup lair would have had even MORE weight given how much she'd been able to accomplish despite her background.  Also, I'm curious why the shows' decided to give her such amazing credentials to only have her be an IT support person in S1.  I would have liked to see that she was a bit higher up on the food chain in QC's IT department given her educational accomplishments.

 

Maybe this will somehow be addressed this season?

 

- her emotional discussion with Barry on the train... My theories had been she said what she did because her POV wasn't a focus on Arrow (Oliver's is) and that the show didn't want to risk alienating Laurel fans, though I have no idea if Laurel fans watch "The Flash" or not... 

 

I also think she could say what she did because she can relate to Barry AND she doesn't have anyone else in Starling City that she can talk to about her feelings.  At least, no one that we know of.  Even if Sara was still alive & in Starling City, would Felicity actually confide in Sara?  I don't think so.

 

Regardless of the reasons, I think it boils down to the show not having enough time to flesh out many characters as much as others.  It's a shame, because I think the show benefits when it shows that the character's we're rooting for have a lot more to them than what we've seen.

 

Not sure if I'm explaining this well...............

[Ceylon5]

I think the problem on Arrow is that the writers put far more into each script than they have time to screen, which means that chunks of relevant story get cut.  In the end it becomes up to the editor to decide which scenes to keep and which to cut, and as a result, they often cut things which 

a) are important for the storyline to make sense, leaving us scratching our heads as to how we got from A to B;

b) are important character beats, but which the editor deems less important because they're not critical for the story of the week to make sense - even though the audience is actually often watching mostly for these scenes (and the actors and writers meanwhile, having filmed these scenes, move forward on the presumption that this is now canon, not always remembering that the audience never actually got to see the scene);

c) end up causing a scene to be incredibly choppy, even though it was probably written and acted fine in its original version - for instance, if it's true that there was originally a Felicity line saying something to the effect "Are there cameras around?" while Oliver was asking her out, it would explain why the dialogue in that scene seemed so rushed (to me, anyway) - they were cutting and pasting bits of dialogue and leaving out beats between the characters, in, frankly, one of their most important Oliver/Felicity scenes of the show.  I find that both annoying and incredibly stupid.

 

The end result is that so far this season of Arrow has been disjointed and confusing and I've just thought the overall quality of the show has been poor, directly as a result of bad editing and too much story squashed into far too little time.  They're making no effort to really check in properly with each character and giving us time with them to see how they're experiencing all the huge things that are happening.  The fact that The Flash took more time in one episode to check in with where Felicity is at right now (and has given us more back-story on her) than Arrow has ever really bothered to do, is ridiculous.

[Chaser]

I was shocked at how much better the pacing was for The Flash. They managed to fit in all the action and some wonderful character moments. Why can't Arrow do that? 

[dtissagirl]

I completely agree that the editing on Arrow has gone to hell, but I blame it more on the writers wanting to fit eleventy billion story beats into each episode than I blame the editors. [Plus, standard editing procedure for TV means both the director and the writer of the episode are present in the editing bay making decisions.] I would bet money that the Director's Cut of each episode of S3 so far is way better paced than the final results we're getting. But those cuts tend to run long, and unfortunately, it's always the character beats that are being consistently cut for time, because they cannot afford to cut action/plotty beats. If they were running through less story in the writers room, the editing wouldn't be so choppy.

 

I think Arrow is also suffering in comparison to Flash because Greg Berlanti and Geoff Jonhs are far far FAR superior at breaking episodes, and at hitting the right character beats than Guggenheim and Kreisberg ever were, and Berlanti and Johns are clearly way more focused on writing Flash than Arrow right now.

Edited October 29, 2014 by dancingnancy

[writersblock51]

...

I think Arrow is also suffering in comparison to Flash because Greg Berlanti and Geoff Jonhs are far far FAR superior at breaking episodes, and at hitting the right character beats than Guggenheim and Kreisberg ever were, and Berlanti and Johns are clearly way more focused on writing Flash than Arrow right now.

 

I agree completely with your entire post.

 

The writing and editing go hand in hand, I think - I feel bad for the editors, though.  I also wonder what the 'keep, cut' criteria is.

 

I'd love to see Director's Cuts of each episode at some point.

Edited October 29, 2014 by writersblock51

[NumberCruncher]

I think Arrow is also suffering in comparison to Flash because Greg Berlanti and Geoff Jonhs are far far FAR superior at breaking episodes, and at hitting the right character beats than Guggenheim and Kreisberg ever were, and Berlanti and Johns are clearly way more focused on writing Flash than Arrow right now.

That's exactly what I worried would happen when I heard the words "spin-off". There was no way having 2 of Arrow's 3 EPs shift their focus towards The Flash and have it not have some sort of impact. The problem is that they've tried to overcompensate for losing the time spent getting all the beats right on Arrow by shoving as much as they can into the episodes without properly developing the characters and storylines. And I'm getting whiplash.

[JenMD]

I'm also bitter that Oliver never bothered to tell Felicity that Barry had woken up and had super powers, she found out by listening in on his phone call.

Barry didn't mention his superpowers on the phone to Oliver, just that he was awake and needed help.  She found out about the superpowers by listening to their conversation on the rooftop.  To me, the only thing that makes sense is that Oliver then either texted or called Felicity that Barry was awake and needed help (he didn't know what Barry needed and the last time Barry was around so was Mirakuru) and they met at the foundry so he could suit up and to meet him, with Felicity on comms like she usually is or they had already planned to work in the foundry anyway, that night, before the Digglet made her appearance.  Felicity is routinely on comms, so that's something the writers of The Flash would be familiar with; she's never, that we've seen, listened on his phone calls or surreptiously kept track of him, that I can recall.  Felicity showed no anger towards Barry (or Oliver) about how she found out, so either way, it didn't seem to bother her all that much. 

 

I'm bitter that Barry didn't call her and tell her he was awake, more so that Caitlyn or Cisco didn't.  They knew she cared about him and had been visiting him.  And he'd been up and about for some time before he even called Oliver. 

 

And I'm bitter because it's such a simple thing but they won't tell us these things.  We're left to wonder and figure things out, or if we're lucky, have the EPs explain via social media what they meant or what got cut or to just generally explain things that should be on the damn show. 

 

That said, honestly I think the real issue there wasn't the Oliver/Felicity part, but that they filmed the Flash pilot before they knew for certain what exactly would be happening in the Arrow premiere.

This times a million.  Why these two sets of writers who share EPs and people in charge can't coordinate details is just mind-boggling.  They knew they had The Flash bit to work from, so go from there, but make it make sense.  They probably should have had the Arrow cameo in the pilot happen pre-Arrow premiere instead of trying to squeeze it in The Calm, and had Felicity know about him being awake because someone on Team Flash called her and they could still have had her overhear Oliver's and Barry's conversation on the roof.

 

Also, I'm curious why the shows' decided to give her such amazing credentials to only have her be an IT support person in S1.

They just thought of it? ;-P

 

I'm bitter because I have to watch a completely different show to find out more about a character who's a regular on this show.

 

The timelines on the show continuously make me bitter, but Sara's death and everything that followed continues to mystify me because it makes no sense.  IIRC, Oliver and Co came through Verdant in the daylight down to the foundry, so it was at least the next morning.  How long had Laurel taken to bring Sara down?  And when did she get there?  Because Oliver sleeps in the foundry.  He was in a new clothes so hadn't been out all night.  It's like they don't even try to have it make sense anymore as long as there's a reaction shot they can get out of a scene.  Argh.

 

And now I'm bitter because I've posted in the Bitterness thread. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by JenMD

[dtissagirl]

The writing and editing go hand in hand, I think - I feel bad for the editors, though.  I also wonder what the 'keep, cut' criteria is.

 

For Arrow? I'm entirely certain that their #1 "keep" priority are the stunt/action scenes. Those scenes have always tended to run long on the show. Which I completey understand, since they are their most expensive scenes, and the ones that take the most time and effort to come up with and shoot. The problem is they're still keeping the action stuff running a couple of beats longer than anything else, while also drastically chopping the character development moments to teeny tiny bits.

 

I also think that the fact that they've decided to go with breakneck speed for character development scenes is making the action scenes look sluggish, because they're still taking their time with them, but not giving the introspective scenes time to breathe at all.

[quarks]

Also, I'm curious why the shows' decided to give her such amazing credentials to only have her be an IT support person in S1.

 

 

Answering in the Felicity thread. 

[LeisureTime]

Maybe I'm doing Arrow wrong, but the only thing I'm really bitter about so far tihs season is Quentin Lance's hair. And Laurel's, to a lesser extent.

[writersblock51]

Saw the 3.04 promo clip.

 

There is absolutely no justification for Laurel not telling Quentin the truth about Sara. None.  He's going to find out the truth at some point - and when that happens, what are the chances that he'll be in a hospital?  And Dinah? 

 

This show's reasoning is utter bull.  And my dislike of Laurel is only more intense with each episode that goes by without her parents knowing what happened.

 

If the show wants to convince non-Laurel fans to buy into her becoming Black Canary, this is an absolutely awful way to do it.  At this point, I'd say it is a herculean task.  Meanwhile, the show is on DVR life support (though 3.05 looks promising) for me as it is.  Shoving Laurel into focus means I'm going to completely turn out.

[statsgirl]

I have no idea why they are making Laurel such an idiot about everything, from finding Sara's killer to her own training.  If they are trying to get us to like her, it's having the completely opposite effect for me.

 

I'm bitter because I'm glad I have theatre tickets tonight so I don't have to watch this episode live.  That's a huge change in my perception of Arrow.  

(Also, Nicholas Lea is in the play (Moira's campaign manager) and I'd rather see him than Laurel any day.)

[chaos is welcome]

Saw the 3.04 promo clip.

 

There is absolutely no justification for Laurel not telling Quentin the truth about Sara. None.  He's going to find out the truth at some point - and when that happens, what are the chances that he'll be in a hospital?  And Dinah? 

 

This show's reasoning is utter bull.  And my dislike of Laurel is only more intense with each episode that goes by without her parents knowing what happened.

 

If the show wants to convince non-Laurel fans to buy into her becoming Black Canary, this is an absolutely awful way to do it.  At this point, I'd say it is a herculean task.  Meanwhile, the show is on DVR life support (though 3.05 looks promising) for me as it is.  Shoving Laurel into focus means I'm going to completely turn out.

Oh man, all of this. I am new to this forum and wasn't sure we were allowed to discuss clips in this thread. Both of the clips for this episode have enraged me. Like ohhhh, btw, we found a blank piece of paper in Sara's boot. Wait. Season 1. List. Both Oliver and Felicity have experience with invisible ink and finding things. So it annoys me to no end that they needed to wait however long it's been since Sara died for nyssa to come along and be all "ohhhhh invisible ink!"

And then the latest in laurels oh dad can't know bc he has a heart condition. But, great idea, I am gonna become a vigilante! Because that won't be bad for his heart.

I am still very bitter over Sara's death, and the crappy storytelling/pacing/plots are making me extra bitter. I felt bitter after watching flash because the pacing was so good, but we will never get that on arrow because there are too many plots/characters that do not mesh well/can not share screen time because of the status of the relationships. Roy and Thea will be treated separately, lance and laurel will largely be treated separately, felicity is being separated from the team, diggle is being separated from the team....while I want everyone to have a life outside of the team, I still want team arrow and we aren't getting that at all. It shouldn't be one or the other...but it's not going to change any time soon because of the size of the cast/# and complexity of the stories being told. Ugh.

It just makes me bitter, bitter, bitter.

[Genki]

I'm bitter because The Flash was so enjoyable and lately, Arrow is not. 

 

After obsessing thinking about it I believe one of the reasons why is that Flash still has so many possibilities, while Arrow has steered back onto the course which I thought they were moving away from.

 

Killing Sara and pushing Laurel hard takes away all the possibilities they made Season 2A so enjoyable, alternate Canary, strong team Arrow, alternate love interest, not slavishly devoted to a comic book cannon that doesn't work when the Actress is not skilled or charismatic enough to pull it off.

 

If Flash was an established show I would have been annoyed with so much of another character coming in a dominating, since Flash is still finding itself, having Felicity there was AWSOME. We got some much character goodness there and while we are still waiting for more on her own show.

 

And we have to sit through another episode (which I'm worried will be sub-par) before we get there.

 

3.05 better be the start of Felicity's story not a bone thrown to the audience.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Genki