S04.E02: Breathe

[MaryPatShelby]

On 8/13/2018 at 9:16 PM, benteen said:

I definitely didn't expect Gus to be the one to carry out that killing at the end.  Nacho is the wild card of this show and his storylines are the most suspenseful of the show.

I agree about Nacho, but for me part of that is that I find Michael Mando so compelling on screen; I can hardly take my eyes off him.

Gus is a killer.  I never understand why people are so excited that he's in the show now and say he's their favorite character.  He's a terrible person, and a murderer.  

 

On 8/13/2018 at 10:51 PM, Milburn Stone said:

Do we know why Gus appears to want Hector to recover? It would seem he's the one funding the doctor from Johns Hopkins. I think I'm not getting something.

 

Lol, I rarely understand the drug stuff - the ins and outs and machinations and switching allegiances and how many keys etc. in the drug business is just beyond me, no matter how hard I try.  I always need someone on these boards to explain it to me.  That's why I wish this show were more Saul focused, because his story I get!

[ItCouldBeWorse]

8 hours ago, smartymarty said:

Rebecca could contest it had he given everything to Jimmy, who had just fought him in front of the Bar.

An ex-wife has no standing to challenge a will. A brother does.

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

I agree about Nacho, but for me part of that is that I find Michael Mando so compelling on screen; I can hardly take my eyes off him.

Gus is a killer.  I never understand why people are so excited that he's in the show now and say he's their favorite character.  He's a terrible person, and a murderer.  

 

Lol, I rarely understand the drug stuff - the ins and outs and machinations and switching allegiances and how many keys etc. in the drug business is just beyond me, no matter how hard I try.  I always need someone on these boards to explain it to me.  That's why I wish this show were more Saul focused, because his story I get!

people aren't saying they want to be bffs with him. He's a great character, competence can be captivating, much like why Mike is fun to watch.

[Captanne]

Where Bryce Lynch and I agree (I think!) is that Kim needed to leave HHM.  Whether by her own volition or by being fired by Howard -- the humiliation in the file room was ridiculous for both of them.  Howard is a bit of a ridiculous character so that doesn't bother me.  Kim is an awesome character- and the only side of her I don't find endlessly fascinating is (was) her strange, stoic martyrdom to HHM.  

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

An ex-wife has no standing to challenge a will. A brother does.

If Chuck was legally divorced but still wore his ring, perhaps that could bolster a case Jimmy might have about Chuck being delusional when he wrote the will.

Maybe the letter offers Jimmy a substantial sum of money if he changes his name so as not to "taint" the family legacy.  Would Kim abandon Jimmy over that choice? I don't think so, but if VG writes it that way, I trust that it will be compelling and believable.

[Bryce Lynch]

I read that the movie White Heat which Kim chose over Jaws 3 was mentioned by Saul in Breaking bad episode 212 Phoenix (the episode in which Jane died).

Walt was  griping to Saul about not being able to spend the $480K he has or tell his family about it. They then had the following exchange:

Saul: Well, I guess that's why gangsters had molls.

Walt: What?

Saul: Gun molls. Haven't you ever seen White Heat?

Walt: Yeah, I've seen White Heat -but I don't see how that pertains.

 Saul: Maybe you need a moll more than a wife who you can't trust with your secrets. 

 

Could the call back to that conversation in BB  be a hint that Kim is going to become Saul's "gun moll" and actively assist him in his criminal enterprises?

Edited August 17, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[PeterPirate]

Kim is, by all we've seen, an excellent lawyer.  But her association with Jimmy made her an existential threat to HHM.  

 

9 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Gus is a killer.  I never understand why people are so excited that he's in the show now and say he's their favorite character.  He's a terrible person, and a murderer.  

 

Jimmy is just as reprehensible as Gus and Walt.  He just covers it with a heavy veneer of charm.  

As always, mileage varies.

Edited August 17, 2018 by PeterPirate

[ShadowFacts]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I read that the movie White Heat which Kim chose over Jaws 3 was mentioned by Saul in Breaking bad episode 212 Phoenix (the episode in which Jane died).

Walt was  griping to Saul about not being able to spend the $480K he has or tell his family about it. They then had the following exchange:

Saul: Well, I guess that's why gangsters had molls.

Walt: What? Gun molls.

Saul: Haven't you ever seen White Heat?

Walt: Yeah, I've seen White Heat -but I don't see how that pertains.

 Saul: Maybe you need a moll more than a wife who you can't trust with your secrets. 

 

Could the call back to that conversation in BB  be a hint that Kim is going to become Saul's "gun moll" and actively assist him in his criminal enterprises?

I don't want to think Kim would be that stupid. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, PeterPirate said:

Kim is, by all we've seen, an excellent lawyer.  But her association with Jimmy made her an existential threat to HHM.  

 

Jimmy is just as reprehensible as Gus and Walt.  He just covers it with a heavy veneer of charm.  

That is one of the great things about BB and BCS.  They can make you root for characters who are horrible people.

[Bannon]

24 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I read that the movie White Heat which Kim chose over Jaws 3 was mentioned by Saul in Breaking bad episode 212 Phoenix (the episode in which Jane died).

Walt was  griping to Saul about not being able to spend the $480K he has or tell his family about it. They then had the following exchange:

Saul: Well, I guess that's why gangsters had molls.

Walt: What? Gun molls.

Saul: Haven't you ever seen White Heat?

Walt: Yeah, I've seen White Heat -but I don't see how that pertains.

 Saul: Maybe you need a moll more than a wife who you can't trust with your secrets. 

 

Could the call back to that conversation in BB  be a hint that Kim is going to become Saul's "gun moll" and actively assist him in his criminal enterprises?

I really trust these writers, but I don't like that possibility. It just seems at odds with where the character is going now, but who knows? Before this season started I said if they really wanted to psychologically destroy Jimmy McGill, they would have Kim go back to HHM (which I deemed doable, writing-wise), and to really finish him off, Kim would start an affair with Howard, but I could see no way to plausibly write that. Now, with Kim tearing Howard a new one in this last episode, I strangely could see it happening! 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't want to think Kim would be that stupid. 

I don't want that to happen to her either, but I think the signs are there.

She did the 2 bar scams with Jimmy.  

She came up with "Ice Station Zebra Associates" which becomes Saul's loan out in BB.

She defended Jimmy despite knowing he doctored the MV files.

She did the "Give me a dollar." thing to establish attorney client privilege, just like Saul did with Walt and Jesse.

She impersonated Chuck's assistant to fraudulently cancel his door repair so Jimmy could get his fixer into Chuck's house.

She helped Jimmy destroy Chuck on the stand.

She has started blowing off her work and taking pain pills and drinking a lot of Zafiro Anejo. (which we know can be deadly in the BB/BCS universe)

Then we got this call back to a discussion Saul had about needing a gun moll.

[Tikichick]

16 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

We don't know when the will was written.  If it was before his inability to work in environments with electricity, there's not a problem.  People of completely sound mind do not have to leave anything to a brother over an ex-wife, a friend, a charity or anybody else.  I think the unopened brother-to-brother letter is the wild card.  How Jimmy reacts to it may determine a lot.  There's so much it could say including Chuck telling him what their mother's dying words were.  I am really interested to know what happens to lead Jimmy to shed the McGill identity.  Probably more than what happens to Kim or Nacho I want to know that, because it's a pretty big thing to get rid of your name and 50 or so years of identity. 

I love these writers precisely because when I think about things like the letter I can spin multiple scenarios of what the contents might be -- and be entirely wrong and entirely satisfied by the reveal.  I feel that whatever is in it will be unbelievably high stakes emotionally for Jimmy.  Now, whether that's going to ultimately decimate Jimmy because it contains something from the heart of the brother who loathed him with every molecule of his being, or the brother who truly loved him deeply, I have no idea.  I do firmly believe that the letter will ultimately destroy every last vestige of Jimmy McGill -- or call him back to life from a somnolent state deep undercover in a hidey hole.   Much will depend on when that letter was written and when it is read. 

[SunnyBeBe]

So, is it a given that Kim has to suffer tremendously in order for Jimmy to really descend?  Or, that there must be a horrific event to serve as the catalyst for that transformation? I thought we already had a Jimmy who is capable.  He has time on his hands and no more distraction from Chuck....so, what's to stop his creative thinking at this point?

[Bryce Lynch]

42 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I really trust these writers, but I don't like that possibility. It just seems at odds with where the character is going now, but who knows? Before this season started I said if they really wanted to psychologically destroy Jimmy McGill, they would have Kim go back to HHM (which I deemed doable, writing-wise), and to really finish him off, Kim would start an affair with Howard, but I could see no way to plausibly write that. Now, with Kim tearing Howard a new one in this last episode, I strangely could see it happening! 

The way I see it, Kim's character has been moving in that direction the whole series, with a lot of ebb and flow to that movement, and especially since the accident.  

Early on, she only wanted to be friends with Jimmy.  Later she did a couple of small scams with him and started sleeping with him.  She was horrified by Jimmy fabricating evidence by making a squat cobbler video, and made him promise never to tell her about that sort of stuff.  Then, she believed Chuck about the MV fraud.  She pretended to Chuck that she didn't but then punched Jimmy in the car.  

After Chuck tricked Jimmy into breaking in to destroy the tape, she did whatever she needed to do to protect Jimmy including some unethical and illegal behavior.  

Chuck's breakdown on the stand was a turning point.  She started to feel extremely guilty, became workaholic, showed obsession-compulsive behavior and began to shut Jimmy out more and more.  She seemed disgusted by him lying on the floor of the office playing guitar, and wouldn't take a minute to celebrate his news that Sandpiper was settling 

Then the accident happened, she was shaken up, Jimmy was their to comfort her and take care of her, and she became very attached to Jimmy again.  Ironically, the accident temporarily caused Jimmy to pull back from being Saul.  He destroyed his elder law practice to make things right for Irene, allowed the $1 million Sandpiper payment to be postponed indefinitely and agreed to shut down the office and sublet it.   Then, Chuck's death happened and Jimmy made another u-turn back towards becoming Saul.

I'm not sure I could see these writers having Howard and Kim have an affair after their blowout.  That sort of "I hate you! I hate you more! (passionate kiss and cut to the couple in bed next morning) seems hackneyed and way below the standards of these great writers.  

I was thinking the thing that could make Jimmy finally fully embrace becoming Saul is Kim being on board with it.  

[Tikichick]

17 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree that Chuck's whacky behavior could be fairly strong evidence for invalidating any will he wrote during that period.  I think we probably became a bit desensitized to his lunacy, but a judge looking at his behavior might easily conclude that he was totally out of his mind.  

I agree that Howard might have a conflict of interest, if HHM owes Chuck's estate a large amount of money.   I also wonder if he might face insurance fraud charges, if he filed the homeowners insurance claim on behalf of the estate, and failed to disclose his suspicion that it was arson by the policy holder.  He might slide based on the fact that it was conjecture without any solid evidence, but who knows.

The concealing of Chuck's condition seems dubious, ethically, but Howard was also constrained by privacy laws, and Chuck was doing very little legal work while he was on sabbatical.  I think the concealment might be more of a client relations issue than a legal one.  

I see zero employment issues regarding Jimmy.  He worked in the mail room for several years, got an online law degree from a 3rd rate school and the declined to make him an attorney.  They were under no duty at all to promote him, and I doubt they ever hired a lawyer with such a shoddy resume and prior legal issues. 

I don't see much of a case regarding Kim, either.  They fronted her law school tuition and promoted her from the mail room to an attorney.  She made some mistakes that cost her the trust of her boss, so they reassigned her, temporarily, to lower level legal work, and she eventually resigned, at which time they forgave her tuition debt.

Ernesto might have a case, but he doesn't seem like the litigious type.  Also, he disclosed what he heard on the tape to Kim after being strictly ordered to tell nobody.  That could well be grounds for termination, though the fact that he was manipulated as part of a setup of Jimmy might not go over so well.  

Bottom line, it doesn't matter how it is that Howard can explain or justify things.  Ultimately Howard can't have a sniff of this whole unsavory mess reflect on HHM -- particularly now when presumably Howard is the lone "name" left to ostensibly give heft to the power of the name and reputation of HHM.  Jimmy and Kim would be well aware of precisely how his current position would weigh heavily on the guy who underneath views himself as merely the son of the only H that was truly meaningful in HHM -- and the infinitely unworthy colleague of the brilliant Charles McGill.  Howard is quaking in his boots that everyone will see that HHM is now really only h.  

That's precisely why Howard of all people was attuned to the abilities, and grit and determination of both Jimmy and Kim.  Underneath it all he's always believed they were truly qualified for positions at HHM on their own merits that he feels he can never be.  The idea of going into a public battle with Jimmy and/or Kim would liquify Howard's insides.   

Edited August 17, 2018 by Tikichick

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

I agree about Nacho, but for me part of that is that I find Michael Mando so compelling on screen; I can hardly take my eyes off him.

Gus is a killer.  I never understand why people are so excited that he's in the show now and say he's their favorite character.  He's a terrible person, and a murderer. 

I don't think I've ever seen Mando in another role, and I totally agree with you.

I think Gus is an interesting character, which is why I like seeing him. I don't know that I'd call him my favorite, but I was happy when he arrived in BCS. He's much more complicated than Hector, who is largely a raving bully, or Tuco who's just crazy. He's cool (even his revenge is carefully plotted), collected, and efficient. He is shown to have some humanity  - he treats his LPH employees well. But he is ruthless, and yes, a murderer. I find him much more frightening than the loose cannon drug lords.

44 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I love these writers precisely because when I think about things like the letter I can spin multiple scenarios of what the contents might be -- and be entirely wrong and entirely satisfied by the reveal.  I feel that whatever is in it will be unbelievably high stakes emotionally for Jimmy.  Now, whether that's going to ultimately decimate Jimmy because it contains something from the heart of the brother who loathed him with every molecule of his being, or the brother who truly loved him deeply, I have no idea.  I do firmly believe that the letter will ultimately destroy every last vestige of Jimmy McGill -- or call him back to life from a somnolent state deep undercover in a hidey hole.   Much will depend on when that letter was written and when it is read. 

I agree. I go along for the ride, even though I sometimes wonder what will happen, because the writers always have a pay off that is far more interesting and complicated than anything I've thought of.

[ShadowFacts]

57 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I do firmly believe that the letter will ultimately destroy every last vestige of Jimmy McGill -- or call him back to life from a somnolent state deep undercover in a hidey hole.   Much will depend on when that letter was written and when it is read. 

Definitely the timing of the reading of it is important, or they would have written Jimmy reading it right away.  As to what's in it, I don't think any more venom from Chuck is necessary, we've had almost nothing but that for years now.  That would be piling on and wouldn't tell us anything new.  It's something else.

55 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was thinking the thing that could make Jimmy finally fully embrace becoming Saul is Kim being on board with it.  

I'm not sure he would want her to be on board.  I could see him pushing her away.  Having a partner in bar scams and her help in saving his law license is one thing, having her really sully herself in thefts, etc. is another.  Maybe it's my wishful thinking, but I just don't want to see her do that to herself because of him. 

[qtpye]

On 8/15/2018 at 9:56 AM, Tikichick said:

That letter is going to have the ultimate seismic effect IMO. It will likely be the catalyst for the end of Kim/Jimmy.  I fully expect it to include a revelation that completely levels Jimmy, totally blindsides him. 

 

On 8/15/2018 at 3:28 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I wonder this too. So much stress, 24 hour job, constant danger....nice house and car, but, is it really worth it?

 

On 8/15/2018 at 3:49 PM, Bannon said:

Yeah, I don't think Kim thought Chuck's letter from beyond quite ranked with oysters and champagne, in terms of aphrodisiac effect.

 

On 8/15/2018 at 7:11 PM, Bannon said:

It's all just guesswork by us, but my sense of it is that Madrigal is a huge multinational conglomerate, with a market cap well over 100 billion dollars, and thus it is publicly traded with well dispersed ownership. Gus at some point was introduced to the CEO, and identified him as someone he could gain influence over by blackmail and/or bribery, aided by the fact that Pollos Hermanos is a legitimately attractive fast food company to acquire. Gus could have been a multimillionaire purely via fried chicken!

It'll be fun if Gilligan and Gould give us a well written back story on this!

Gilligan is a brilliant writer. However, all this talk about Checov’s letter has made me think about bad soap opera plots. Jimmy will find the letter and it will reveal that he was actually dumb dumb dumb Chuck’s son!

 I never really gave much thought to How Gas never got to enjoy his wealth. He seemed to revel in being Gus never got to enjoy his wealth. He seemed to revel in being a well respected businessman in the community. He did have a nice life on the outside. I  Think he even had a wife and child on breaking bad but we never saw them or I May be misremembering. However, he certainly was not spending a fraction of what he was really worth.

[SunnyBeBe]

I really don't relish the prospect of Kim not showing letter, Jimmy finds out, he's outraged, banishes her from his life.....meh...doesn't appeal to me. Too contrived for my taste and absurd. Jimmy would get why she did it and get over it.   

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 

 

 

Gilligan is a brilliant writer. However, all this talk about Checov’s letter has made me think about bad soap opera plots. Jimmy will find the letter and it will reveal that he was actually dumb dumb dumb Chuck’s son!

 I never really gave much thought to How Gas never got to enjoy his wealth. He seemed to revel in being Gus never got to enjoy his wealth. He seemed to revel in being a well respected businessman in the community. He did have a nice life on the outside. I  Think he even had a wife and child on breaking bad but we never saw them or I May be misremembering. However, he certainly was not spending a fraction of what he was really worth.

Gus seemed to live the lifestyle of a successful, but somewhat frugal, fast food restaurant owner.  I think he and Skyler might have hit it off really well in terms of how important it was to them to lifestyle that fit their "story".    

I don't believe Gus ever mentioned a wife.   When he had Walt over for dinner, he mentioned that he rarely made the dish he said "You can help me cook. This is a Chilean dish that I love, but I never get to make it. The kids won't eat it. But, uh you know how that is. "   This implies that he has kids.  That reminds me of the forgotten fan theory that Ernesto might be Gus's son. :)

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The way I see it, Kim's character has been moving in that direction the whole series, with a lot of ebb and flow to that movement, and especially since the accident.  

Early on, she only wanted to be friends with Jimmy.  Later she did a couple of small scams with him and started sleeping with him.  She was horrified by Jimmy fabricating evidence by making a squat cobbler video, and made him promise never to tell her about that sort of stuff.  Then, she believed Chuck about the MV fraud.  She pretended to Chuck that she didn't but then punched Jimmy in the car.  

After Chuck tricked Jimmy into breaking in to destroy the tape, she did whatever she needed to do to protect Jimmy including some unethical and illegal behavior.  

Chuck's breakdown on the stand was a turning point.  She started to feel extremely guilty, became workaholic, showed obsession-compulsive behavior and began to shut Jimmy out more and more.  She seemed disgusted by him lying on the floor of the office playing guitar, and wouldn't take a minute to celebrate his news that Sandpiper was settling 

Then the accident happened, she was shaken up, Jimmy was their to comfort her and take care of her, and she became very attached to Jimmy again.  Ironically, the accident temporarily caused Jimmy to pull back from being Saul.  He destroyed his elder law practice to make things right for Irene, allowed the $1 million Sandpiper payment to be postponed indefinitely and agreed to shut down the office and sublet it.   Then, Chuck's death happened and Jimmy made another u-turn back towards becoming Saul.

I'm not sure I could see these writers having Howard and Kim have an affair after their blowout.  That sort of "I hate you! I hate you more! (passionate kiss and cut to the couple in bed next morning) seems hackneyed and way below the standards of these great writers.  

I was thinking the thing that could make Jimmy finally fully embrace becoming Saul is Kim being on board with it.  

Oh, if they had Kim get with Howard, what we saw last Monday would just be the beginning of a process, nothing so abrupt as you suggest. Howard and Kim would need to experience further significant change, and last week's confrontation would simply begin a habit of them being willing to speak quite openly and frankly to one another. In real life, when two people start doing that, the possibilities are immense.

Right now, I see Kim's car accident as a life changing event, in terms of her self awareness, so it would surprise me somewhat if he went back to enabling and participating in Jimmy's unethical behavior. I think it more likely that she is going to come to view her entire life, personal and professional, as entirely lacking. I've had very successful lawyers as clients who have come to this realization. One was Ivy league educated, made partner at a large firm with offices in multiple states, who realized one day that she hated her work and her life. Got out the legal industry completely, moved to another state, and started a business having nothing to do with the law. I could see Kim doing that, but like I said, I really trust these writers, so I am looking forward to see what choices they make.

[scenario]

I like Gus because he is efficient, hard working and plays by the rules.

In Pollos Hermanos, he is an excellent boss, demanding, organized, and patient. He trains his employees well and expects them to do well. He's not one of those bosses that changes the rules every time you turn around.

But as a drug dealer, he plays by a different set of rules. Totally ruthless and violent when necessary. Loyal to his people until they make a bad mistake or are disloyal to him. Avoid killing outsiders as much as possible to limit the attention. He's a near perfect crime lord. He's the type that when he's in total charge, there aren't any drug wars and no unnecessary killings because its all business. He doesn't have to rant and scream to get peoples obedience. People are afraid of him but feel that if they do what is expected of him, they will do well. Other drug dealers create an atmosphere of fear by being unpredictable, but that is unstable. Sooner or later someone will kill them in fear. 

If there is going to be a criminal mastermind, I'd rather Gus than someone who uses random violence to get what they want.   

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't believe Gus ever mentioned a wife.   When he had Walt over for dinner, he mentioned that he rarely made the dish he said "You can help me cook. This is a Chilean dish that I love, but I never get to make it. The kids won't eat it. But, uh you know how that is. "   This implies that he has kids.  That reminds me of the forgotten fan theory that Ernesto might be Gus's son. :)

That line about the kids must have slipped by me completely. I've always thought that Gus is gay - which wouldn't precludes kids, of course. I've always assumed the partner that was killed was the love of his life and that he didn't have another long term partner. So (thank you Netflix), I watched the scene - and I think you're right, and the show more than implied it, as when Walt walks in, you can see in the background as they're walking toward the kitchen, toys for small children, a truck, one of the little play tables (just like my kids had). And a stuffed toy (I think) on one of the stools in front of the kitchen island. That puts a different spin on Gus - something that BB never followed up on, and I wonder if BCS will go into it.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Clanstarling

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

That line about the kids must have slipped by me completely. I've always thought that Gus is gay - which wouldn't precludes kids, of course. I've always assumed the partner that was killed was the love of his life and that he didn't have another long term partner. So (thank you Netflix), I watched the scene - and I think you're right, the show more than implied it, as when Walt walks in, you can see in the background as they're walking toward the kitchen, toys for small children, a truck, one of the little play tables (just like my kids had). And a stuffed toy (I think) on one of the stools in front of the kitchen island. That puts a different spin on Gus - something that BB never followed up on, and I wonder if BCS will go into it.

I would bet the kids live with an ex-wife. He's such a control freak that he'd tend to drive a lot of women away. He leaves the toys on the floor for when the visit and to humanize him to visitors. He's got a soft spot for his kids and will let the house be just a little bit messy. 

If he's old enough, they could also be his grandchildren. If he had his first kid at 17 and they had kids in their twenties, he could be a grandfather in his early forties. That would explain why you never see them. They only come over one day a week for a few hours. He got his children a good education and they have nothing to do with either of his businesses. 

[monagatuna]

Re: Gus not being able to spend all his money. Too easy, he likes the control. He likes being the most powerful kingpin alive. He enjoys the challenge of maintaining the delicate balance between the power players in the industry and their underlings. The money is a nice perk, but he's not bothered with not being able to spend it all. Walt was the same way once the blue meth took off, to the point where they couldn't launder the money fast enough and had to store it in a storage locker and he didn't care.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

That line about the kids must have slipped by me completely. I've always thought that Gus is gay - which wouldn't precludes kids, of course. I've always assumed the partner that was killed was the love of his life and that he didn't have another long term partner. So (thank you Netflix), I watched the scene - and I think you're right, and the show more than implied it, as when Walt walks in, you can see in the background as they're walking toward the kitchen, toys for small children, a truck, one of the little play tables (just like my kids had). And a stuffed toy (I think) on one of the stools in front of the kitchen island. That puts a different spin on Gus - something that BB never followed up on, and I wonder if BCS will go into it.

Wow, I never noticed the children's toys.  I always figured Gus, probably had kids, but I left open the possibility that he might have been falsely leading Walt to believe he had them, so Walt would relate to him, so he could better manipulate Walt.  I also would have thought Gus's kids would be at least teenagers.  Of course, my kids are all teenagers now, I have still have a bunch of little kid toys in my house. :)

[Colorado David]

I sooooooooooooo want to know what Chuck's letter to Jimmy says. Begging forgiveness? Condemnation? Explanations??

[ShadowFacts]

I did something I don't usually do, went to Wikipedia to see if there's confirmation that Gus had a family (unclear) and stumbled on something about this episode I didn't catch (and don't know if it is correct).  It was stated that Gus found out from the hospital records that Hector did not have his prescription drugs in his system.  So I guess combined with knowing he threw something in the Rio Grande, he's pretty sure about Nacho, it's not just a vague suspicion. 

[Dev F]

7 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Could the call back to that conversation in BB  be a hint that Kim is going to become Saul's "gun moll" and actively assist him in his criminal enterprises?

 

I don't know that it's necessarily predictive of future events, but it definitely makes sense as a window into this particular moment in Jimmy's development -- when Kim is certainly acting more like a supportive gun moll than a killjoy wife. But Saul's comments to Walt would still make sense if his relationship with Kim ultimately falls apart because of his criminal activities; he'd just be lamenting the fact that he'd once had a cool, gun-moll-type girlfriend he could watch White Heat with, only for her to morph into a hectoring-wife type. (Maybe when she actually became his wife? I could still see a disastrous marriage in the couple's future.)

Edited August 17, 2018 by Dev F

[scenario]

Gus is living off the money he makes from his legal operations. He's probably sending the profit from his illegal operations overseas. He's probably spending money in his old country to clean up his reputation under his old name and/or establish a new name and to do stuff like build schools and give money to the poor people. Get the people and politicians behind him and if he had to flee America, he'd have enough money to live in luxury the rest of his life in safety. "No you must be mistaken. He's not the murderous drug dealer Gus. He's a solid citizen whose never left the country." 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

I don't know that it's necessarily predictive of future events, but it definitely makes sense as a window into this particular moment in Jimmy's development -- when Kim is certainly acting more like a supportive gun moll than a killjoy wife. But Saul's comments to Walt would still make sense if his relationship with Kim ultimately falls apart because of his criminal activities; he'd just be lamenting the fact that he'd once had a cool, gun-moll-type girlfriend he could watch White Heat with, only for her to morph into a hectoring-wife type. (Maybe when she actually became his wife? I could still see a disastrous marriage in the couple's future.)

Hmm.  It didn't really occur to me that we should believe that Saul was thinking about Kim when he was talking to Walt about gun molls.  But, it is feasible that he could have been either reminiscing about what a wonderful gun moll Kim was, or regretting that he lost her because she wouldn't be one.  

I was seeing it more as an Easter egg, using "White Heat" to lead fans to make the gun moll connection.    

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, Colorado David said:

I sooooooooooooo want to know what Chuck's letter to Jimmy says. Begging forgiveness? Condemnation? Explanations??

One of the things that would be most deeply emotional would be something calling back their childhood or mom and dad. I've also wondered if it could possibly be Chuck's balance sheet giving his accounting of how he interpreted the ledgers and books of their parents' store balancing out?  Any way you slice it, it's going to pack a big emotional wallop.  Whether it's going to be because vindictive Chuck has the final word or it's going to be the words of a genuinely loving (possibly disappointed?) older brother talking to the now grown kid he read stories to remains to be seen.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

If Chuck was legally divorced but still wore his ring, perhaps that could bolster a case Jimmy might have about Chuck being delusional when he wrote the will.

Maybe the letter offers Jimmy a substantial sum of money if he changes his name so as not to "taint" the family legacy.  Would Kim abandon Jimmy over that choice? I don't think so, but if VG writes it that way, I trust that it will be compelling and believable.

It was pretty clear at the hearing that Chuck knew Rebecca was his ex-wife, despite wearing the ring.

I like your idea about the name change.

[Bryce Lynch]

26 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

One of the things that would be most deeply emotional would be something calling back their childhood or mom and dad. I've also wondered if it could possibly be Chuck's balance sheet giving his accounting of how he interpreted the ledgers and books of their parents' store balancing out?  Any way you slice it, it's going to pack a big emotional wallop.  Whether it's going to be because vindictive Chuck has the final word or it's going to be the words of a genuinely loving (possibly disappointed?) older brother talking to the now grown kid he read stories to remains to be seen.

It is certainly a mystery.  We don't even know when Chuck wrote it.  He could have written it while Jimmy was still working in the mail room, while Jimmy was bringing him supplies every day, after Jimmy found out that Chuck had blocked him becoming at attorney at HHM or very recently.   The fact that Howard had it would suggest it wasn't very recent, as in after Howard forced him out.  That would mean it was probably written before Jimmy and Chuck's last meeting.  

When it was written could greatly affect its contents.   

If he really wanted to twist the knife in Jimmy's back, maybe he would reveal that their mother cried out for Jimmy on her death bed, while Jimmy was out getting a sandwich.  

I wouldn't be surprised if it is more positive than we might expect.

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, Dev F said:

I don't know that it's necessarily predictive of future events, but it definitely makes sense as a window into this particular moment in Jimmy's development -- when Kim is certainly acting more like a supportive gun moll than a killjoy wife. But Saul's comments to Walt would still make sense if his relationship with Kim ultimately falls apart because of his criminal activities; he'd just be lamenting the fact that he'd once had a cool, gun-moll-type girlfriend he could watch White Heat with, only for her to morph into a hectoring-wife type. (Maybe when she actually became his wife? I could still see a disastrous marriage in the couple's future.)

Doesn't Saul mention two ex-wives in BB?  He better get a move on if they're going to track with that in BCS.

44 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If he really wanted to twist the knife in Jimmy's back, maybe he would reveal that their mother cried out for Jimmy on her death bed, while Jimmy was out getting a sandwich.  

I wouldn't be surprised if it is more positive than we might expect.

I won't be surprised with anything, but if he wanted to inflict pain about their mother's death, he could have done that at their last meeting when he said Jimmy never really mattered much.  What now occurs to me is that Chuck might reveal that Jimmy's father was someone else.  That would be a reason for him to voluntarily rid himself of the McGill name. 

[qtpye]

23 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Doesn't Saul mention two ex-wives in BB?  He better get a move on if they're going to track with that in BCS.

I won't be surprised with anything, but if he wanted to inflict pain about their mother's death, he could have done that at their last meeting when he said Jimmy never really mattered much.  What now occurs to me is that Chuck might reveal that Jimmy's father was someone else.  That would be a reason for him to voluntarily rid himself of the McGill name. 

From what we know of Jimmy's dad, the man was kind and forgiving to a fault. His wife has an affair and ends up pregnant and instead of divorcing her, he forgives her and raises the child as his own. This would be in line with the type of behavior that Jimmy hated and made him not respect his father, even if the gesture was noble.

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

One of the things that would be most deeply emotional would be something calling back their childhood or mom and dad. I've also wondered if it could possibly be Chuck's balance sheet giving his accounting of how he interpreted the ledgers and books of their parents' store balancing out?  Any way you slice it, it's going to pack a big emotional wallop.  Whether it's going to be because vindictive Chuck has the final word or it's going to be the words of a genuinely loving (possibly disappointed?) older brother talking to the now grown kid he read stories to remains to be seen.

Honestly, if it is something sweet, I /might actually burst out crying. Two brothers who could have been each other's Yin/Yang to a great relationship that is literally now buried in the ashes.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Doesn't Saul mention two ex-wives in BB?  He better get a move on if they're going to track with that in BCS.

I won't be surprised with anything, but if he wanted to inflict pain about their mother's death, he could have done that at their last meeting when he said Jimmy never really mattered much.  What now occurs to me is that Chuck might reveal that Jimmy's father was someone else.  That would be a reason for him to voluntarily rid himself of the McGill name. 

I dimly recall Jimmy mentioning an ex wife in the beginning of BCS. Back in one of the Slipping Jimmy scenes. But I could be wrong.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I dimly recall Jimmy mentioning an ex wife in the beginning of BCS. Back in one of the Slipping Jimmy scenes. But I could be wrong.

Oh, I think you're right, it was maybe part of the Chicago sunroof story. 

[Irlandesa]

13 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Could the call back to that conversation in BB  be a hint that Kim is going to become Saul's "gun moll" and actively assist him in his criminal enterprises?

While she's willing to walk on the wild side, the arc to get Kim to moll would require a much larger story arc than it will take to move Jimmy to Saul and Jimmy's arc has been slow and deliberate.  I just can't see it.

12 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, is it a given that Kim has to suffer tremendously in order for Jimmy to really descend? 

No. I don't think she has to suffer tremendously but I do think he has to lose her. While Kim has been willing to engage in shenanigans with Jimmy, she has her limits.  She is careful to set boundaries professionally.  She has been disappointed in Jimmy when she has felt he has gone too far.  As long as Jimmy has Kim, he's either going to try to not go too far that he'd lose her or at least try to hide it from her if he has gone too far. 

For him to live as openly as Saul lives, I don't think he has any hope that he could be with Kim again.  I think that means she walks away and is either unavailable or cuts herself off from him.  (I actually don't think death would necessarily cut it in the same way Chuck's death affected him.  It's not the same kind of relationship.)

11 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure I could see these writers having Howard and Kim have an affair after their blowout.  That sort of "I hate you! I hate you more! (passionate kiss and cut to the couple in bed next morning) seems hackneyed and way below the standards of these great writers.   

If they go that route (which has been my "out there" spec from season 1), I don't think it's going to be a hate turned into love kind of thing. Howard and Kim have been professional allies and they've also been at odds.  They went up against one another last season in relation to Chuck, yet in the first episode of the season they appeared kind to one another at Chuck's house.  Howard's reaction to Kim's anger wasn't "how dare she" but rather distress.  So the blowout was big but I don't see it as some kind of point of no return in regards to the two of them having a relationship in the future whether it's professional, friendly or something more.

I do think that Howard and Kim are on parallel paths and Howard is ahead of Kim.  Both Howard and Kim love and respected a McGill brother even if the McGill Brother vendetta put them in some awkward positions because of their loyalty to their respective brother.  Howard finally realized his connection to Chuck was going to cost him sooner or later so he tried to minimize the damage.  I think Kim will have to make the same realization one day and do the hard work as well.

 

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Doesn't Saul mention two ex-wives in BB?  He better get a move on if they're going to track with that in BCS.

He mentioned in S3 that he caught his second ex-wife cheating on him with his step-father. 

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

He mentioned in S3 that he caught his second ex-wife cheating on him with his step-father. 

Yep, and as ShadowFacts mentioned, Jimmy told his bingo group that the guy whose sunroof he crapped through "was a real asshole. He might have owed me some money. He might have slept with my wife, before she became my ex-wife." There's no mention whether that was wife #1 or wife #2, so it's an open question whether Jimmy has another marriage ahead of him or not.

That's assuming the stepfather story is true at all. Some viewers are apt to assume that Saul was just making shit up, especially since there's no evidence that Jimmy ever had a stepfather. But I think it'd be a shame to throw out that moment entirely, especially since it seemed like an important moment in Saul's life, one of the things that made him the cynical guy who follows up that anecdote by scoffing, "It's a cruel world, Walt. Grow up."

Until the end of last season I had a theory that Kim was indeed wife #2 and Saul's "stepdad" was Chuck -- since Jimmy would have to come up with an alternate explanation for his relationship with his Irish Catholic brother once he reinvented himself as Jewish lawyer Saul Goodman. Now I'm wondering if there's a way it could be Howard . . .

[Eulipian 5k]

14 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I do firmly believe that the letter will ultimately destroy every last vestige of Jimmy McGill -- or call him back to life from a somnolent state deep undercover in a hidey hole.   Much will depend on when that letter was written and when it is read. 

We may never see the hand off happen, but the letter would most likely show up in the Cinnabon cold opens.

[PeterPirate]

I think the stepfather story was "true" at the time.  Other things that Saul said about himself became manifest in BCS, especially the rather outlandish Kevin Costner story.  

But in this case I think it's better to retcon that Saul just said that to get Walt to calm down.  Trying to fashion the canon of BCS to fit the step-father claim--or even that he had two ex-wives--seems too far-fetched for me.  They might as well create another, awful prequel to explain how the Klingons got their bumpy heads.

[scenario]

Some people make up stuff about their exes. I think Saul is one of them. It wouldn't surprise me if he had two ex wives. But I would take whatever he says about them with a grain of salt. He's likely to make something up for humor or to make a point. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, scenario said:

Some people make up stuff about their exes. I think Saul is one of them. It wouldn't surprise me if he had two ex wives. But I would take whatever he says about them with a grain of salt. He's likely to make something up for humor or to make a point. 

I agree with this.^^ If the series ends with zero ex-wives, I'd fanwank Saul making stuff up to make a point before I'd be crying  retcon.

As for the letter in this episode, I'm most curious about whether VG and PG had any idea what was in the letter when they wrote this episode. Also, it doesn't become Chekhov's letter until we've seen it twice, right? But I doubt it would be in the script if it wasn't going to cause a major kerfuffle; I don't think the letter will just never be mentioned again. And I don't think the letter's contents should be something that would make Kim turn against Jimmy, because that seems like "lazy" writing, but I suppose it could somehow convince Jimmy that his presence in Kim's life will only drag her down.

[Duke2801]

On 8/14/2018 at 10:57 AM, GussieK said:

 

I like that they used the name Neff.  Shout out to Walter Neff (the failed insurance scamster played by Fred MacMurray--and "played" by Barbara Stanwyk--in Double Indemnity).  When have you ever met a real person named Neff?

 

The valedictorian of my high school class had the last name Neff. It’s not really that uncommon. 

[shapeshifter]

36 minutes ago, Duke2801 said:

 

On August 14, 2018 at 9:57 AM, GussieK said:

I like that they used the name Neff.  Shout out to Walter Neff (the failed insurance scamster played by Fred MacMurray--and "played" by Barbara Stanwyk--in Double Indemnity).  When have you ever met a real person named Neff?

The valedictorian of my high school class had the last name Neff. It’s not really that uncommon. 

@Duke2801, I appreciate your posting of the reference to "Walter Neff (the failed insurance scamster played by Fred MacMurray--and 'played' by Barbara Stanwyk--in Double Indemnity." If I've ever caught this movie, I didn't recall it. Surely he must be the BCS Neff's namesake!
@GussieK, you are correct; not only is Neff a common surname, but they even have their own coat of arms! https://www.houseofnames.com/neff-family-crest

[EtheltoTillie]

21 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

@Duke2801, I appreciate your posting of the reference to "Walter Neff (the failed insurance scamster played by Fred MacMurray--and 'played' by Barbara Stanwyk--in Double Indemnity." If I've ever caught this movie, I didn't recall it. Surely he must be the BCS Neff's namesake!
@GussieK, you are correct; not only is Neff a common surname, but they even have their own coat of arms! https://www.houseofnames.com/neff-family-crest

@Duke2801

@shapeshifter thanks for posting the coat of arms.  I see Neff is a Dutch name.  I never knew any Neffs but I see some others here have. you should run out and rent/stream Double Indemnity immediately!  If you'd seen it, I think you would recall it.  It's a Billy Wilder masterpiece and surely one of the best noir films ever made.  It can be no accident that they are referencing it here. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by GussieK

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Oh, I think you're right, it was maybe part of the Chicago sunroof story. 

That's where my mind was going, but I didn't remember it clearly.

10 hours ago, Dev F said:

Yep, and as ShadowFacts mentioned, Jimmy told his bingo group that the guy whose sunroof he crapped through "was a real asshole. He might have owed me some money. He might have slept with my wife, before she became my ex-wife." There's no mention whether that was wife #1 or wife #2, so it's an open question whether Jimmy has another marriage ahead of him or not.

That's assuming the stepfather story is true at all. Some viewers are apt to assume that Saul was just making shit up, especially since there's no evidence that Jimmy ever had a stepfather. But I think it'd be a shame to throw out that moment entirely, especially since it seemed like an important moment in Saul's life, one of the things that made him the cynical guy who follows up that anecdote by scoffing, "It's a cruel world, Walt. Grow up."

Until the end of last season I had a theory that Kim was indeed wife #2 and Saul's "stepdad" was Chuck -- since Jimmy would have to come up with an alternate explanation for his relationship with his Irish Catholic brother once he reinvented himself as Jewish lawyer Saul Goodman. Now I'm wondering if there's a way it could be Howard . . .

Although Jimmy/Saul is an accomplished liar, for some reason I believe the two wives story. It's not uncommon for storytellers to put a kernel of truth in when they make stuff up. It makes the lies feel more truthful. If he's only had one at this point, I'm guessing Kim would be the second one.  I have always been intrigued by the stepfather comment though. There's never been any evidence of that in the series - Jimmy's bingo group comment was, I think, the only mention of him. Neither Chuck nor Jimmy (and Jimmy's pal, whose name I forget) have made any reference to him so far as I remember.

9 minutes ago, GussieK said:

@Duke2801 you should run out and rent/stream Double Indemnity immediately!  If you've seen it, I think you would recall it.  It's a Billy Wilder masterpiece and surely one of the best noir films ever made.  It can be no accident that they are referencing it here. 

I missed the Neff reference (I know the film, but don't remember that much about it), but I agree it is no accident. Writers choose names with great deliberation. Whether it's an easter egg as someone mentioned earlier I think, or will have some payoff, I don't know.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Clanstarling

[EtheltoTillie]

There's so much Breaking Bad history I just don't remember, so thank you all for all the references.  I binged BB right before the final season, and I never rewatched any of it.  I really don't remember much about Saul Goodman, oddly enough!  I focused more on Walter, Jesse, Hank, Skyler and Mike, I guess.  Despite this--or maybe because of it--I have enjoyed the unfolding of the Jimmy story as if it were a standalone.  I may go back and rewatch some BB to get continuity. 

[Ellaria]

On 8/17/2018 at 9:57 AM, Clanstarling said:

I think Gus is an interesting character, which is why I like seeing him. I don't know that I'd call him my favorite, but I was happy when he arrived in BCS. He's much more complicated than Hector, who is largely a raving bully, or Tuco who's just crazy. He's cool (even his revenge is carefully plotted), collected, and efficient. He is shown to have some humanity  - he treats his LPH employees well. But he is ruthless, and yes, a murderer. I find him much more frightening than the loose cannon drug lords.

Gus is one of my favorite characters in the BB/BCS universe. I don't want to be buddies with him. I don't admire him. I am, however, mesmerized by him. It is the perfect combination of actor, script and direction. The way that he portrays "menace" is completely unnerving. Hector, Tuco and the other assorted baddies in these shows are frightening but it is Gus' methodology that terrifies me.

Alternatively, I do want to be BFF with Kim. Her response to Howard was perfectly measured and delivered. Her eventual break with Jimmy will be heartbreaking for all, including me. I like those two as a couple.

Somehow, Howard will bounce back. He always does. Nothing ever affects him too deeply or for any length of time.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Ellaria Sand