Unpopular Opinions

[starri]

If memory serves, the later SVH books started getting increasingly comic book-y, but in a good way.  They would have stories play out across multiple books.  There was a particularly good one called The Evil Twin that was very heavily influenced VC Andrews and Christopher Pike, which I hope would remain a great, trashy read even as an adult.

22 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Honestly, I don't know who bothered me more: sociopathic bimbo Jessica, or self-righteous drag Elizabeth. 

Look, Jessica was so worried that Elizabeth was going to be crowned Prom Queen that she spiked Elizabeth's drink.  Elizabeth got drunk, drove, and caused a car accident that killed Jessica's boyfriend.  Liz STOOD TRIAL for manslaughter and Jessica still wouldn't admit what she'd done.

Jesus, I can't believe the lives of two ridiculous teenage girls in a series of books written for pre-teen girls (and their future gay brothers) can still raise that much anger in me.  What's wrong with me?

[Wiendish Fitch]

20 minutes ago, starri said:

Look, Jessica was so worried that Elizabeth was going to be crowned Prom Queen that she spiked Elizabeth's drink.  Elizabeth got drunk, drove, and caused a car accident that killed Jessica's boyfriend.  Liz STOOD TRIAL for manslaughter and Jessica still wouldn't admit what she'd done.

WHAT?!?! That's horrible! Thank God I missed that book!

 

 Suddenly I feel like a jerk for ever grumbling about Elizabeth! Fuck you, Jessica!

 

24 minutes ago, starri said:

 

Jesus, I can't believe the lives of two ridiculous teenage girls in a series of books written for pre-teen girls (and their future gay brothers) can still raise that much anger in me.  What's wrong with me?

I'm a grown-ass woman who's cursing out fictional teenagers. What is wrong with me?!?!

[starri]

20 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

WHAT?!?! That's horrible! Thank God I missed that book!

That was their big pivot into being more soap-opera-y with the multi-book story arcs.  If you want to read a snarky recap there's a blog for that.

Also, for the Lila fans, this moment of awesomeness from that same book.

Quote

For your information, I chose to come to the dance alone. What’s your excuse, Bruce? Andrea finally get fed up with your macho behavior? Or did your inflatable blow-up doll pop when you pinned on her corsage?

Edited August 10, 2018 by starri

[scarynikki12]

46 minutes ago, starri said:

If memory serves, the later SVH books started getting increasingly comic book-y, but in a good way.  They would have stories play out across multiple books.  There was a particularly good one called The Evil Twin that was very heavily influenced VC Andrews and Christopher Pike, which I hope would remain a great, trashy read even as an adult.

The run between A Night To Remember and The Evil Twin is my favorite part of the SV series.  Margo is an AMAZING character and I love her only slightly less than Lila. 

24 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

WHAT?!?! That's horrible! Thank God I missed that book!

Yeah that was awful.  I don't claim to know much about law but Jessica absolutely should have been charged with manslaughter as well.  Liz had her moments during that run, if it makes you feel better.  Before she remembered (and it's classic soap opera Heroine Randomly Remembers Something She Was Never Actually Present For Because We Need More Drama-Liz wouldn't have been able to see Jess spike the punch due to all the people but they went for cheap tropes rather than just have Jess confess) and had no reason to think the night unfolded any differently than what everyone believed, she did things like attend Sam's funeral in order to assuage her own guilt.  Still so self-centered that it never occurred to her how unbelievably hurtful it would be to Sam's family to have his killer present at his funeral. 

Other than Margo my favorite part of that run was the absurd trial.  Ned and Steven are defending Liz, even though one doesn't practice criminal law and the other isn't even in law school yet, and it works.  The rules just don't apply to the Wakefields. 

Margo really was fun, though, so if you can get your hands on those books you should.  Who knew a violent psychopath could be such fun?

[starri]

10 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

The run between A Night To Remember and The Evil Twin is my favorite part of the SV series.  Margo is an AMAZING character and I love her only slightly less than Lila. 

That story (and a lot of the series following) was dark AF.  I think there's even a moment when it seems like Liz is considering committing suicide.

They cheapened Margo with the last minute reveal that she also had a twin.

Perhaps there's some small cosmic justice in that the first guy that Jessica ever kissed ended up as her brother's husband.

Also, Enid was a total waste and it was great that they reintroduced Maria from the Twins books to be Liz's bestie.

Edited August 10, 2018 by starri

[scarynikki12]

1 minute ago, starri said:

That story (and a lot of the series following) was dark AF.  I think there's even a moment when it seems like Liz is considering committing suicide.

They cheapened Margo with the last minute reveal that she also had a twin.

Perhaps there's some small cosmic justice in that the first guy that Jessica ever kissed ended up as her brother's husband.

Also, Enid was a total waste and it was great that they reintroduced Maria from the Twins books to be Liz's bestie.

Margo's twin didn't show up until Return of the Evil Twin, so the first one is still in tact. 

When did they make Steven gay?  Was it in that rebooted series that no one read?

[starri]

1 minute ago, scarynikki12 said:

When did they make Steven gay?  Was it in that rebooted series that no one read?

Yeah, it was in Sweet Valley Confidential.  At some point before the book, Jessica (of course) had outed him after she caught him together with Aaron Dallas.  In fairness, Steven was cheating on his wife.

In the novella Sweet Life series, they're married and have a daughter.

I've not read the latter, but the former actually wasn't terrible, if you can get around the headscratcher retcon that Todd had been cheating on Liz with Jessica on the reg all along, and dumped Liz, I believe at the altar.  And try as I might, I will never get the image of Liz's thong hitting the floor (yes, this is described) when she gives in to her long-simmering passion and fucks Bruce Pattman.  

And there's a scene where Alice drops an f-bomb, which is really enough to justify the entire exercise.

[scarynikki12]

11 minutes ago, starri said:

Yeah, it was in Sweet Valley Confidential.  At some point before the book, Jessica (of course) had outed him after she caught him together with Aaron Dallas.  In fairness, Steven was cheating on his wife.

In the novella Sweet Life series, they're married and have a daughter.

I've not read the latter, but the former actually wasn't terrible, if you can get around the headscratcher retcon that Todd had been cheating on Liz with Jessica on the reg all along, and dumped Liz, I believe at the altar.  And try as I might, I will never get the image of Liz's thong hitting the floor (yes, this is described) when she gives in to her long-simmering passion and fucks Bruce Pattman.  

And there's a scene where Alice drops an f-bomb, which is really enough to justify the entire exercise.

Ew!

[starri]

He is also described as giving her the big O.

[starri]

2 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

The run between A Night To Remember and The Evil Twin is my favorite part of the SV series. 

As an aside, if anyone is a member of Kindle Unlimited, all of the books in the Sweet Valley Terror arc, save for A Night to Remember, are available to read for free.  Not many other SVH books though.

Edited August 11, 2018 by starri

[Black Knight]

2 hours ago, starri said:

I've not read the latter, but the former actually wasn't terrible, if you can get around the headscratcher retcon that Todd had been cheating on Liz with Jessica on the reg all along, and dumped Liz, I believe at the altar.  And try as I might, I will never get the image of Liz's thong hitting the floor (yes, this is described) when she gives in to her long-simmering passion and fucks Bruce Pattman.  

And there's a scene where Alice drops an f-bomb, which is really enough to justify the entire exercise.

Heh heh, I had so much fun reading that book when it came out. The f-bomb was amazing. And for an unpopular opinion - [whisper] I had always wanted Jessica and Todd to be endgame. [/whisper]

[Melgaypet]

Hmm. I guess I never read enough Sweet Valley books to form strong opinions one way or the other. Maybe I missed it out, they sound awesomely batshit.

Here's an UO, Mary Anne Spier was absolutely the best member of the BSC.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Melgaypet

[Dr.OO7]

11 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

Here's an UO, Mary Anne Spier was absolutely the best member of the BSC.

I think so too. She's the author's avatar, so it actually makes sense that she would be the best character.

[Dr.OO7]

6 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

In retrospect, I think Elizabeth came off best in the Sweet Valley Twins series. One book where Elizabeth truly comes off as fully human and someone to root for (i.e. possessing the qualities the writers claim she has) is A Christmas Without Elizabeth (an obligatory It's a Wonderful Life ripoff). Not only does Elizabeth get some deluxe snarky lines, but her guardian angel calls her out on her crap (and Elizabeth, to her credit, grudgingly owns it).

In the "Twins" series, yes. In the "High", there are times when she's just as bad as Jessica and WON'T admit to it. Case in point, she gets enraged when anybody dares to mention her friend Enid's wild past, even publicly humiliating Jessica because she revealed it to everyone, but she refuses to acknowledge that Jessica's friend Cara has changed and instead goes on and on about how "Cara's all wrong for Steven". Not until Steven blasts her for her judgemental attitude does she even realize what a bitch she's being.

Not only that, for all her bitchiness, Jessica almost always defended Elizabeth when she was accused of wrongdoing (prom night aside). When the roles were reversed, Elizabeth was usually the first to condenm Jessica.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Camille

[Irlandesa]

Wow.  Things I did not expect this Friday---finding out my fun preteen SVH reads basically went on an acid trip. 

[Wiendish Fitch]

8 hours ago, Melgaypet said:

Hmm. I guess I never read enough Sweet Valley books to form strong opinions one way or the other. Maybe I missed it out, they sound awesomely batshit.

Here's an UO, Mary Anne Spier was absolutely the best member of the BSC.

 

That's unpopular? Mary Anne always struck me as the most loved character of BSC.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Wiendish Fitch

[starri]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Wow.  Things I did not expect this Friday---finding out my fun preteen SVH reads basically went on an acid trip. 

After that phase of the series, Sweet Valley was half-destroyed in an earthquake.  Several characters died, and the series morphed into its final form, SVH: Senior Year, which per Wikipedia, appears to have been more grounded, even than the first incarnation of the books.  If nothing else, it appears that the crew wasn't almost entirely white, for a change.  One hopes they also cut down on the slut shaming.

7 hours ago, Camille said:

Case in point, she gets enraged when anybody dares to mention her friend Enid's wild past

When she was doing press for Sweet Valley Confidential, Francine Pascal confessed that she'd actually always hated Enid.

11 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

That's unpopular? Mary Anne always struck me as the most loved character of BSC, to me.

I believe the general opinion is that the best character was Stacey, although this opinion can be safely ignored.

Do we have a thread for these serialized pre-teen melodramas?  Because I think we need one.

[Melgaypet]

3 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

That's unpopular? Mary Anne always struck me as the most loved character of BSC.

Maybe just in my circle of friends? They all thought Stacey and Dawn were cool and Mary Anne was a shy drip who cried all the time. I was a sensitive, shy kid who loved to read and cried too much, so I identified. But Mary Anne was objectively awesome. Who kept her cool and got poor sick Jenny medical care? Who was the first one to get a steady boyfriend? And who dumped him when he got too jerky and controlling? Who put up with her weird dad and ditzy stepmom and judgy friends with quite a bit of grace? Mary Anne! Suck it, dumb preteen friends!

Ahem. I swear I'm a functional adult.

[starri]

Hey, when Mary Anne started getting more confident, it was revealed that she had a really sarcastic sense of humor that increased her awesomeness.

I give Ann M Martin a lot of credit for resisting jumping on the nostalgia bandwagon for some quick cash.  She said she'd only do it if she had a story she wanted to tell, and she hasn't found one yet.

[Wiendish Fitch]

2 hours ago, starri said:

 

I give Ann M Martin a lot of credit for resisting jumping on the nostalgia bandwagon for some quick cash.  She said she'd only do it if she had a story she wanted to tell, and she hasn't found one yet.

This. Ann M. Martin should be rewarded for her integrity and good sense.

[scarynikki12]

Stacy was always my favorite but I don't think there was a Babysitter that I disliked.  The closest I came was when Mary Anne's and Dawn's parents got married and they became BFF.  The reason is that it seemed like Kristy was left out in the cold and I didn't like that.  I've been the Kristy where a seemingly good friend forgets my existence when a shiny new friend comes along so I would look at Mary Anne and Dawn negatively when it would take story focus.  Along those lines, I remember when Stacy and Laine stopped being friends and, because of my own history, I so wanted them to patch things up but I don't think they ever did.  At least Stacy had Claudia and the others.

7 hours ago, starri said:

After that phase of the series, Sweet Valley was half-destroyed in an earthquake.  Several characters died, and the series morphed into its final form, SVH: Senior Year, which per Wikipedia, appears to have been more grounded, even than the first incarnation of the books.  If nothing else, it appears that the crew wasn't almost entirely white, for a change.  One hopes they also cut down on the slut shaming.

Senior Year was pretty good.  It was far more realistic than any of the other series.  There's actually a group of us that have decided that SY is what "really happened" while the other SV series are basically fanfiction inspired by the twins.  Jade Wu's mom, in the final book, reveals that she has a book deal and is basing it on the twins so that may have been a hint from the publisher that this theory is correct.  It would certainly explain the million Christmases, never ending junior year, supernatural events, etc. 

The slut-shaming didn't go away but it was reduced compared to the SVH series.  Right or wrong, it also had a purpose and wasn't just there to get the audience to dislike a random character.  Jessica gets slut-shamed for the first handful of books because she does her thing where she goes after the cute new guy not knowing he has a girlfriend.  This time, when his girlfriend finds out, she turns everyone (from El Carro and Sweet Valley both) against Jessica.  And there's no consequence for the boyfriend.  There's no last minute reprieve for Jessica this time and she has to navigate this new feeling of being unpopular and outwardly disliked.  She does make new friends, gets a job, falls for a guy from Big Mesa and worries that he'll find out about her reputation and hold it against her, and is far more humble and relatable than any other time in any other series.  Senior Year Jessica is not a sociopath and it's pretty awesome.  Elizabeth still sucks, as she's once again trying to reinvent herself (one of her big goals of the year is not to get A's, because that's a bad thing apparently), but she's no longer Hypocrite #1 and there's no longer a line around the block of people desperate for her approval.  She's far more tolerable than in the other series.  Also, there's almost no Enid and Todd, as Liz is obsessed with one of the new guys and Maria gets to be BFF.  The bad part is that there's almost no Lila as well, since they wanted to give the twins a new group of friends and didn't have the same appreciation for Lila as the rest of us.  The new friends are cool but if my Lila is going to stop being friends with Jessica there's NO WAY she'd join the Melissa wannabes.  She'd just present herself as being above everyone else in school and they're damn lucky if she chooses to talk to them, sit with them at lunch, or attend their parties.  She'd turn being a loner into the desirable high school choice. 

7 hours ago, starri said:

When she was doing press for Sweet Valley Confidential, Francine Pascal confessed that she'd actually always hated Enid.

Ha!  Not at all surprised, though I'd have just transferred the character to a new school.  I guess that's what her college transformation to Alexandra was supposed to be but the character still sucked. 

Another Sweet Valley unpopular opinion: I HATED that the college series paired Lila and Bruce.  I loved how much they hated each other throughout the various series.  That antagonism was so much fun and it was ruined when they started dating.  I know there's a couple moments in a few of the books where Bruce seems a bit into her but I never took it as him actually having legit feelings.  I saw it as Lila being the ultimate challenge, as she's the one girl who was never into him, and nothing more.  Then they're put together in the college series and everyone I knew loved it while I fumed. 

[Annber03]

It's funny, my favorite character in BSC when I was a kid was Kristy. I'm not entirely sure why-I wasn't similar to her, really. Kristy was way more outgoing than me, and she loved sports and I...am very much not an athletic sort :p. I think some of it had to do with Kristy having a big ol' family-for some reason, when I was a kid, I loved the idea of big families. That's one reason I liked Mallory as well (the other being that she was a total bookworm like me). It just always seemed like there was something exciting and big going on at Kristy's house, and I think that made it fun to read about her as a result. And maybe some of her qualities were ones I wish I had for myself, too, I guess. 

But yeah. In real life, I'm definitely a mix of Mary Anne and Mallory, with a dash of Dawn and Claudia (I was a big "save the earth" sort as a kid, and liked art class :D). And I love all the girls and think they were all cool in various ways, so...:). 

Didn't really follow the "Sweet Valley High" series, so reading about how wild that one got here is highly entertaining!

Edited August 11, 2018 by Annber03

[starri]

18 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Stacy was always my favorite but I don't think there was a Babysitter that I disliked

Not even Mallory?

22 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

The closest I came was when Mary Anne's and Dawn's parents got married and they became BFF.  The reason is that it seemed like Kristy was left out in the cold and I didn't like that

Didn't Mary Anne get a taste of that same medicine when Dawn left and they replaced her with Abby?

I have to wonder if they mathematically determined that Dawn was the most popular character, since she got her own spinoff.  If it was just a question of wanting to remove a character from Stonybrook to tell grittier stories, they could always have sent Stacey back to New York.

Also, if there ever is some further BSC content, I hope it's a reboot and not a sequel.  Primarily because I assume when Kristy got to college, she finally noticed the elephant in the room, and I can't imagine that not making me cringe.

29 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I guess that's what her college transformation to Alexandra was supposed to be but the character still sucked. 

In Sweet Valley Confidential, she's the town gynecologist and pretty miserable.  

I'll give the Sweet Valley U books this much:  they eventually gave Jessica a gay BFF (who only came out to her when she went after him, because Jessica), which I'm sure was unprecedented in YA in those days.

[andromeda331]

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 10:37 PM, scarynikki12 said:

Jessica was a total sociopath but still way more fun than sanctimonious hypocritical asshat Elizabeth.

Lila was always my favorite Sweet Valley character anyway.

Lila ended up my favorite character too. I hated her in the beginning but she quickly became my favorite. Her crappy home life really helped. The many books in Twins or High where she just wants attention from her father or wished her mother was around. Even after her parents remarried she was never a priority to her parents. Plus she was just always so cool. I ended up hating both twins most Jessica was psychopath and Elizabeth was a hypocritical asshat. 

[katha]

I have been re-reading Austen novels and another UO of mine that has been reinforced next to the one about Mansfield Park: Elizabeth Bennet is not my fave heroine. I like her well enough, but I always think that I'm supposed to like her more than I do? In fact, she kinda reminds me of Emma Woodhouse in that they are both about twenty and, perhaps rather typically for that age and well observed by JA, self-righteous, quick to judge and thinking that they know everything. Of course they also have many good qualities. And IMO...Emma is the better portrait, more in-depth, with more complexities. Of course her "sins" are worse since she is in a position of power over people and really almost manages to ruin a few lives with her meddling, but IMO she's also more interestingly drawn. While P+P is pretty neat in itself, but perhaps doesn't have the depth of characterization that JA's later novels show.

[andromeda331]

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 4:10 PM, starri said:

If memory serves, the later SVH books started getting increasingly comic book-y, but in a good way.  They would have stories play out across multiple books.  There was a particularly good one called The Evil Twin that was very heavily influenced VC Andrews and Christopher Pike, which I hope would remain a great, trashy read even as an adult.

Look, Jessica was so worried that Elizabeth was going to be crowned Prom Queen that she spiked Elizabeth's drink.  Elizabeth got drunk, drove, and caused a car accident that killed Jessica's boyfriend.  Liz STOOD TRIAL for manslaughter and Jessica still wouldn't admit what she'd done.

Jesus, I can't believe the lives of two ridiculous teenage girls in a series of books written for pre-teen girls (and their future gay brothers) can still raise that much anger in me.  What's wrong with me?

 

23 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

The run between A Night To Remember and The Evil Twin is my favorite part of the SV series.  Margo is an AMAZING character and I love her only slightly less than Lila. 

Yeah that was awful.  I don't claim to know much about law but Jessica absolutely should have been charged with manslaughter as well.  Liz had her moments during that run, if it makes you feel better.  Before she remembered (and it's classic soap opera Heroine Randomly Remembers Something She Was Never Actually Present For Because We Need More Drama-Liz wouldn't have been able to see Jess spike the punch due to all the people but they went for cheap tropes rather than just have Jess confess) and had no reason to think the night unfolded any differently than what everyone believed, she did things like attend Sam's funeral in order to assuage her own guilt.  Still so self-centered that it never occurred to her how unbelievably hurtful it would be to Sam's family to have his killer present at his funeral. 

Other than Margo my favorite part of that run was the absurd trial.  Ned and Steven are defending Liz, even though one doesn't practice criminal law and the other isn't even in law school yet, and it works.  The rules just don't apply to the Wakefields. 

Margo really was fun, though, so if you can get your hands on those books you should.  Who knew a violent psychopath could be such fun?

Margo ended up being my second favorite character in series after Lila too! Sure she was crazy but so much fun. She was my favorite part of that series. She got stuff done. Most villains just sprout stuff. No, she made her away across the country murdering and stealing. Murder was usually her first plan like when she wants to go to Lila's parents wedding all she had to do was just show up and pretend to be a guest and no one would have noticed. Nope, she murders a waitress to get her job at the wedding. I'd never read a character like her and went on from her to VC. Andrews. I was so disappointed when her plan failed. The one where she comes back with a twin was okay but the ending made no sense there's no way Margo wouldn't have killed Jessica instead of just tied her up. Her twin maybe because I don't think she had murdered anyone yet but Margo? She would have the first chance she got. The trial was just insane clearly whoever wrote it never watched any law shows but I do love how it shows what crappy lawyers Ned and Steven were. They didn't even come up with a defense for her nor did they or anyone think that maybe Liz's drink had been spiked. What a teenage girl who doesn't drink suddenly ends up driving drunk? Even without know Jessica's involvement you'd think someone would have thought of that. That's normal at proms.  I also really hated that Jessica got away with what she did and how horrible she was during that part. She knew exactly what happened but never spoke up to save her sister and had the nerve to think her sister deserved it? It makes no sense that Elizabeth or any sister would forgive her for that. 

[Black Knight]

13 hours ago, starri said:

Do we have a thread for these serialized pre-teen melodramas?  Because I think we need one.

There really should be. On TWoP there was a thread for, allegedly, the Sweet Valley TV show but all the discussion was of the books, and luckily, although the posters were worried about it, the mods either didn't notice or the mod responsible for that forum was actually a fan of the books herself and so let it slide. The discussion was quite lively and really can support a thread (just look how quickly it's taken over Unpopular Opinions).

9 hours ago, starri said:

I give Ann M Martin a lot of credit for resisting jumping on the nostalgia bandwagon for some quick cash.  She said she'd only do it if she had a story she wanted to tell, and she hasn't found one yet.

And for quick cash, she's got the new graphic novel adaptations of the BSC books. I just bought my niece the first one and she tore through it in an afternoon. I flipped through it myself and was overall quite pleased, but I was disappointed that they chickened out on Claudia's outfits. I wanted to see the artists actually try to draw some of the ones described in the books. I loved how we got these descriptions of truly ludicrous outfits and were always assured that "somehow Claudia made it all work."

[OtterMommy]

14 hours ago, starri said:

Do we have a thread for these serialized pre-teen melodramas?  Because I think we need one.

 

We do now.

[Madding crowd]

My UO is I can still enjoy a psychological mystery if I guess the twist. If I enjoy the writing and the characters I will still like reading the book. I often lend books to friends only to have them act like they couldn’t continue reading after they “figured everything out”. Sometimes twists are fun and sometimes I just enjoy the journey. 

[truthaboutluv]

6 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

My UO is I can still enjoy a psychological mystery if I guess the twist. If I enjoy the writing and the characters I will still like reading the book. I often lend books to friends only to have them act like they couldn’t continue reading after they “figured everything out”. Sometimes twists are fun and sometimes I just enjoy the journey. 

I have no issues enjoying a thriller/mystery if I figure out the twist because 9 out of 10 times I do. And that's not to brag or anything, it's just I watched a lot of Perry Mason and Murder She Wrote with my mom when I was growing up, so they aren't many mysteries now that truly surprise me. For me, the reason I can still enjoy a mystery thriller even if I've figured out the twist, is because I usually am still interested in the how and the why.

So I may figure out the who but want to know why and/or how.  A perfect example is And Then There Were None. I figured out the guilty person but kept reading to figure out why and how they did it. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[Madding crowd]

Same thing here-I want to see how the person gets found out and how it falls out in the end.

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

My UO is I can still enjoy a psychological mystery if I guess the twist. If I enjoy the writing and the characters I will still like reading the book. I often lend books to friends only to have them act like they couldn’t continue reading after they “figured everything out”. Sometimes twists are fun and sometimes I just enjoy the journey. 

I can too but I do admit the other things, like the writing and characterization, become more important. Are the characters and story well-crafted even if I can guess the mystery?  Is the dialogue well-written or lame cliches? 

I do tip my hat to books with twists that realize their audience might have read hundreds of these and smartly decide to let us in on the twist sooner rather than later/at the end. 

[Mabinogia]

My least favorite part of a psychological mystery is the "twist". Usually, when I read a synopsis of a new mystery and they go on and on about the amazing shocking twist, I try to guess what it is, then read the spoiler. I'm usually right and move on to something else.

So long as the characters are engaging (which I find they rarely are in stories that are all about the twist) and I want to know what happened in these people's lives, I will read it even if it has the most predictable ending imaginable.

My, what seems to be given the current book craze, UO is that I have come to loathe the unreliable narrator, who seems to almost always be a woman who drinks too much or lives a reckless lifestyle. All these Gone Girl, Girl on a Train and so on are all so boring to me. If I can't rely on what I am being told I find I just can't engage in the story.

[nodorothyparker]

16 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

My UO is I can still enjoy a psychological mystery if I guess the twist. If I enjoy the writing and the characters I will still like reading the book. I often lend books to friends only to have them act like they couldn’t continue reading after they “figured everything out”. Sometimes twists are fun and sometimes I just enjoy the journey. 

I generally don't care if I can see something coming as long as it's well done and makes sense for the characters and the plot.  I'm a spoiler whore in most things anyway, so it really just doesn't bother me.  What does bother me is when something comes completely out of left field just be shocking and I can't see how this particular character got to this point or the story hasn't done the necessary legwork to support it.

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

What does bother me is when something comes completely out of left field just be shocking and I can't see how this particular character got to this point or the story hasn't done the necessary legwork to support it.

That is the worst! If I can't go back and see the little hints I missed because there never were any hints and the twist is so random I have to double check that I'm still reading the same book, I will never go near that author again. I am more of a character reader than plot reader. If the characters engage me and the plot doesn't require them to do things out of character I am fine with predictability. After all, every story that should be told has already been told. If it hasn't been told yet, that's probably because it's a terrible story that shouldn't be told. lol

[Melgaypet]

I've been working on writing a mystery novel, on-and-off, for a few years now, and it is really hard. Twists are tricky. Ideally, they should have the reader going, "WHAAAT!?" and then "OF COURSE!" Or you can seed enough clues for the reader to guess and feel clever, but if your sleuth (or whoever) is totally shocked by something the reader saw coming five chapters ago, they can end up looking really stupid. It's a tough needle to thread.

[JAYJAY1979]

As a guy, I've been reading some of the newer psychological thriller books..and it seems like the main character is female, an alcoholic, and a borderline stalker.  Sometimes I root for the main character, other times I think they're too stupid to live.

I'd love to read a psychological thriller where the lead character is Male and an alcoholic...would be interesting to see how that would be presented, etc.

[GaT]

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

My least favorite part of a psychological mystery is the "twist". Usually, when I read a synopsis of a new mystery and they go on and on about the amazing shocking twist, I try to guess what it is, then read the spoiler. I'm usually right and move on to something else.

 

At one point I was thinking of starting the Hillary Greene series by Faith Martin, but when I looked the books up to buy some, every title included the words "a gripping crime mystery full of twists". It's not even part of the synopsis, it's part of the title. I've decided to pass on the serier.

[Spartan Girl]

My UO about The Princess Diaries series: Mia's best friend Lilly was just the WORST. 

[LucidDreamer]

My UO is that I cannot stand Sarah J. Maas' books. I really have tried to read them (the different series too) but... nope.  Yet she is considered a "book goddess" by so many people and her fans are totally devoted, so I guess it's just me. 

[scarynikki12]

I found the first few books of her big series mildly entertaining but the dramatic shift in both story and characterization in the fourth book was a major turn off. Then I read it was because she decided her new hero is super hot and that’s why she made all the changes. She’s still twelve emotionally I guess but it doesn’t make for enjoyable reading. 

[LucidDreamer]

I just legitimately want to know WHY people adore Maas' books so much.  Seriously, I don't get it, and that makes me feel like I'm somehow missing something.  Hey, it's fine if people love books I don't particularly care for, but I would love to know from people who DO adore her books WHY, because I honestly don't see the reason why they entrance readers so blasted much. (I can see how people love some other books I don't really enjoy -- like I don't care for horror, so I won't like must horror books, but I can understand why someone who likes that genre would truly love certain books).

Someone please explain the adoration of these books to me!

[GaT]

51 minutes ago, LucidDreamer said:

I just legitimately want to know WHY people adore Maas' books so much.  Seriously, I don't get it, and that makes me feel like I'm somehow missing something.  Hey, it's fine if people love books I don't particularly care for, but I would love to know from people who DO adore her books WHY, because I honestly don't see the reason why they entrance readers so blasted much. (I can see how people love some other books I don't really enjoy -- like I don't care for horror, so I won't like must horror books, but I can understand why someone who likes that genre would truly love certain books).

Someone please explain the adoration of these books to me!

I've never heard of Sarah J. Maas, but I just looked her up & the Throne of Glass series sounds kind of interesting to me. Can you give me a little more detail as to why you don't like them please?  

[LucidDreamer]

GaT -- They promise a lot of action and adventure but it ends up being mostly romance and sex. Nothing wrong with that, in the right book, but it is overdone in these series IMHO. Also, everyone is gorgeous and perfect and... Lots of purple prose and overly dramatic scenes. No irony or reflection whatsoever, but lots of angsty breast-beating and over-the-top love scenes. I don't know, maybe I'm just too cynical to enjoy such a style. :-)

[Melgaypet]

I've never heard of her, either, but the premise of Throne of Glass, as described on Wikipedia - Cinderella is an assassin sent to the ball to kill the Prince - actually sounds kind of cool.

ETA: Oh, so it's all about romantical problems and not fairytale badassery? Boo.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Melgaypet

[GaT]

19 minutes ago, LucidDreamer said:

GaT -- They promise a lot of action and adventure but it ends up being mostly romance and sex. Nothing wrong with that, in the right book, but it is overdone in these series IMHO. Also, everyone is gorgeous and perfect and... Lots of purple prose and overly dramatic scenes. No irony or reflection whatsoever, but lots of angsty breast-beating and over-the-top love scenes. I don't know, maybe I'm just too cynical to enjoy such a style. :-)

 

16 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

I've never heard of her, either, but the premise of Throne of Glass, as described on Wikipedia - Cinderella is an assassin sent to the ball to kill the Prince - actually sounds kind of cool.

ETA: Oh, so it's all about romantical problems and not fairytale badassery? Boo.

Hmm, not so into angsty breast-beating or over the top love scenes. Maybe I'll read the first book & see if I want to continue after that. Thanks

[Hybridcookie]

I hated the first Throne of Glass, but I really liked Dorian so I carried on reading. I liked the 3rd and the 4th (mainly because Dorian had a fairly big part), but the 5th one was nearly as awful as the 1st. My biggest problem with the series was the main character and the whole trope of "oh no, something seems to have gone wrong, but of course it's all part of Aelin's plan because she's so amazing and so clever" which seemed to happen multiple times per book.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Hybridcookie

[Wiendish Fitch]

I just finished Little Fires Everywhere, and liked it (despite being a downer), but I've got a doozy of a controversial UO regarding a crucial subplot:

 

Spoiler

Bebe, I'm sorry, but you forfeited your rights to that kid the minute you dumped her at the fire station. This is a human being. Yes, I guess it's a blistering commentary on how hard immigrants have it if their English is limited and they have no connections, but in this particular instance, being the biological mother doesn't make you the right mother! I hope Celeste Ng didn't want us to agree with Izzy's sentiments that the McCulloughs are "baby stealers", because they're not (I'm giving Izzy a pass because she's just a kid). They legally adopted that kid, filed the paper work, dotted their i's and crossed their t's. Just because they're white, basic, wealthy, and suburban doesn't make them unfit parents! And I'm certainly not saying being poor and/or a minority makes you unfit, either. What I'm saying is that dropping your kid at a fire station, changing your mind, and then kidnapping the poor child does!! Biological doesn't equal better, that's all I'm saying. 

I found the outcome lopsided and just wrong, IMO.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Wiendish Fitch
Too boring to relate.

[truthaboutluv]

4 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I just finished Little Fires Everywhere, and liked it (despite being a downer), but I've got a doozy of a controversial UO regarding a crucial subplot:

 

  Hide contents

Bebe, I'm sorry, but you forfeited your rights to that kid the minute you dumped her at the fire station. This is a human being. Yes, I guess it's a blistering commentary on how hard immigrants have it if their English is limited and they have no connections, but in this particular instance, being the biological mother doesn't make you the right mother! I hope Celeste Ng didn't want us to agree with Izzy's sentiments that the McCulloughs are "baby stealers", because they're not (I'm giving Izzy a pass because she's just a kid). They legally adopted that kid, filed the paper work, dotted their i's and crossed their t's. Just because they're white, basic, wealthy, and suburban doesn't make them unfit parents! And I'm certainly not saying being poor and/or a minority makes you unfit, either. What I'm saying is that dropping your kid at a fire station, changing your mind, and then kidnapping the poor child does!! Biological doesn't equal better, that's all I'm saying. 

I found the outcome lopsided and just wrong, IMO.

I'm not sure if this is an unpopular opinion. Of course that may be my biased opinion because it's not unpopular to me. But the biological mother is just one of the many reasons I thought the book was awful and way contrived in some ways. 

Spoiler

So on the one hand, we were supposed to buy that this woman was educated enough to be dental assistant or something like that when she was in San Francisco. Then she moves to Shaker for her baby daddy who turns out to be a dead-beat and abandons her. And of course she can't find another dental assistant job because in Shaker, her English is a problem. Okay, but this was a woman who was a dental assistant at some point, so cleary not dumb, yet the excuse later given for why she never sought welfare when she clearly needed it and wasn't making ends meet was that she had never finished high school and of course her English was too bad for her to know how to ask for help. But somehow she was a dental assistant making a good living in San Francisco, prior to moving to Shaker. And so then this same woman, who couldn't figure these things out, later is smart enough to know exactly how to kidnap her baby, have enough money to buy a ticket to China and get out of the country in the same night. Like, all I could think the whole time was, "is the author fucking kidding me with this shit?"

[starri]

George RR Martin is never going to finish A Song of Ice and Fire, and we all know it.