All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I feel like such a dinosaur. I`m a "watch from the Pilot in 2005" viewer because a) the subject matter interested me and b) I followed Jensen over from Dark Angel.  

Yeah I read the description and thought it sounded cool.  I'd never heard of either Jensen or Jared and I remember when I first saw Jensen in Dean's first scene I was absolutely floored that someone that beautiful existed and somehow I was not aware of him before that. LOL  I literally remember thinking simultaneously he had a manly voice(which now he sounds like a baby in the pilot but watching at the time it was like "gee, he sounds like a grown up, for a WB show") and "how did I not know he existed before this moment"?

Within minutes though I was just thinking Dean was a really interesting character and I wanted to know more about his world. He was just really believable and then there was a scene in the bridge where Sam says something about not even remembering Mary and Dean grabs him and pushes him up against the bridge and you expect some angry or growled out line but instead Dean suddenly pulled himself back and just said really quietly don't you talk about her like that, or something along those lines.   It was just really intriguing because it gave me the feeling that he was used to taking care of Sam. It was an unexpected way to play the scene.   I feel like Jensen with his acting laid down so much of who Dean was, even without the dialogue, etc and Kripke in an early interview during the first half of season 1 basically confirmed that when he said the writers were inspired by Jensen's performance into what made that "screwed to hell psyche".  Right from the start Jensen made Dean feel like a real person, IMO.

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I feel like such a dinosaur. I`m a "watch from the Pilot in 2005" viewer because a) the subject matter interested me and b) I followed Jensen over from Dark Angel.  

Heh, I'm a dinosaur also. I watched from the first episode, because at the time it began it was on after Gilmore Girls which I also used to watch - and love - at that time.

I definitely wouldn't have guessed though that I would come to love Supernatural so much more than Gilmore Girls - which I came to hate in later seasons and stopped watching (I've still never seen the last season - or the miniseries reboot thing.)

I had a few bumps - season 4, especially - but mostly loved the show all the way through to the end of season 7. I wasn't into spoilers at the time, so I was so excited to see where the evolved characters would go. I loved Sam's changes and growth. I loved the partnership Sam and Dean had through season 7, and I couldn't wait to see how Dean's stint in Purgatory would come out, and how Sam would try to get him out, and how Dean would have character growth from his experiences there.

Man, was I in for a disappointment. I didn't recognize those two people claiming to be Sam (especially) and Dean. Sometimes I still can't believe the whole first half of the season wasn't a fever dream of Sam while he was in a coma after a car accident while trying to avoid the dog. That would have explained why the Purgatory flashbacks were so standard and stingy despite huge potential for stories there.

Good thing there was season 10 and 11. For me anyway.

[DeeDee79]

Mystery Spot was the first episode that I came across while visiting my parents. My mom was a fan and I walked in when Dean was killed by the barking dog. I looked into it and read that the producers and writers ( some of them anyway ) from the X-Files were apart of the show and it made me even more interested. I got lucky and TNT was just about to start the episodes over from the pilot so I DVR'd and bingewatched every evening when I got home from work. Now I tell everyone to watch and I have several of my coworkers hooked! 

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I'd never heard of either Jensen or Jared and I remember when I first saw Jensen in Dean's first scene I was absolutely floored that someone that beautiful existed and somehow I was not aware of him before that.

You sound like me! 😄

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I own everything but 14. I didn't even think about buying 14. I hate what they did to Dean's storyline.

I bought them up to season 11. I have no interest in buying the Dabb years even though I do like Scoobynatural and Advanced Thanatology.

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I bought them up to season 11. I have no interest in buying the Dabb years even though I do like Scoobynatural and Advanced Thanatology.

Same. I add Nihilism to that list, I just mentally block everything that happened after.

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Same. I add Nihilism to that list, I just mentally block everything that happened after.

At least I can watch them on Netflix since it seems that SPN will be on there forever.🙂

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Heh, I'm a dinosaur also. I watched from the first episode, because at the time it began it was on after Gilmore Girls which I also used to watch - and love - at that time.

I definitely wouldn't have guessed though that I would come to love Supernatural so much more than Gilmore Girls - which I came to hate in later seasons and stopped watching (I've still never seen the last season - or the miniseries reboot thing.)

I had a few bumps - season 4, especially - but mostly loved the show all the way through to the end of season 7. I wasn't into spoilers at the time, so I was so excited to see where the evolved characters would go. I loved Sam's changes and growth. I loved the partnership Sam and Dean had through season 7, and I couldn't wait to see how Dean's stint in Purgatory would come out, and how Sam would try to get him out, and how Dean would have character growth from his experiences there.

Man, was I in for a disappointment. I didn't recognize those two people claiming to be Sam (especially) and Dean. Sometimes I still can't believe the whole first half of the season wasn't a fever dream of Sam while he was in a coma after a car accident while trying to avoid the dog. That would have explained why the Purgatory flashbacks were so standard and stingy despite huge potential for stories there.

Good thing there was season 10 and 11. For me anyway.

Lol. We definitely watch for different things I adore season 4. It's the best of the early seasons imo. Or at least that was my take but then s 4 gives Dean a fully developed mytharc role, begins with excitement, introduces badass Castiel who gripped Dean tight and raised him from perdition and ends with a bang.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Same. I add Nihilism to that list, I just mentally block everything that happened after.

Gah. I bought through 13 ... completist that I  am.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Lol. We definitely watch for different things I adore season 4. It's the best of the early seasons imo. Or at least that was my take but then s 4 gives Dean a fully developed mytharc role, begins with excitement, introduces badass Castiel who gripped Dean tight and raised him from perdition and ends with a bang.

It's not that I don't think season 4 is relatively well written,*** it just wasn't as enjoyable a season for me subject-wise. It was much more grim, nihilistic, and uncomfortable. Season 3 was also somewhat grim, but up until the end there were moments of hope, and the brothers had each other. Season 4 was even more grim and the brothers were at odds, so the hope was hard to come by as the season slogged on to its inevitably dark conclusion.

The story was also mainly about Dean in season 3, but we got quite a bit of Sam's point of view there also. Not so much in season 4. There was a Sam story, but by the time it was fleshed out and we got Sam's story as to how he got there (over 1/3 way through the season), I was already mostly disconnected from it. As was brought up recently in the "Yellow Fever" episode thread, Sam seemed to be acting more as a plot point than how he would normally be acting ...which might be why there were some weird inconsistencies and missing important plot points in his story.

*** With one big nit pick that I wasn't a fan of leaving Sam's story a "mystery" for a big "reveal" (which wasn't really even a big reveal, because that episode had waaaay too much going on in it). I would rather have had more information up front. I'm also not a fan of time jumps with later flashbacks. I think we missed too much story that way. Since Dean had a big mytharc early on, I would rather have had a bit more Sam point of view early on to balance that out. Sam had a mytharc also, but due to the way the narrative was presented, I didn't really understand what it was for a while, which made it hard to connect with the story for me.

[ahrtee]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why didn't Cas smite the djinn instead of stabbing him? Is he losing his power again? Could this point towards an end game human!Hunter!Cas? That would certainly prevent the Empty from claiming him since he would be human. Hmm

Cas without his grace would't be human, or at least he wouldn't have a soul, since Jimmy's soul is in Heaven so he's just an "empty vessel".  Only Chuck can create souls (and he doesn't like to).  They never did explain how Cas became "human" when he lost his grace before, did they?  

Did they ever explain what happens to the humans who lost their souls (since it's the soul that winds up in heaven/hell)?  Do they wind up in the Empty, too?  

I know, that requires that (a) they remember canon, (b) they care about it, and (c) they haven't just decided to rewrite or ignore it.

[Castiels Cat]

48 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Cas without his grace would't be human, or at least he wouldn't have a soul, since Jimmy's soul is in Heaven so he's just an "empty vessel".  Only Chuck can create souls (and he doesn't like to).  They never did explain how Cas became "human" when he lost his grace before, did they?  

Did they ever explain what happens to the humans who lost their souls (since it's the soul that winds up in heaven/hell)?  Do they wind up in the Empty, too?  

I know, that requires that (a) they remember canon, (b) they care about it, and (c) they haven't just decided to rewrite or ignore it.

They suck at soulless and Cas' pseudo human arc was just an excuse for a whicka wow which whoop soft core porno rapey thing.

Just say no. That was Eugenie. Didn't she want Lilith and Dean to get it on too... is she harboring fantasies or is she just really been trying to revamp the show 4ever.

This is reminding me more of Sleepy Hollow and Dean is looking more like that shows forgotten lead that was literally written out too.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

You know since the head witch told them the spell had a strict one-time-use policy - not necessarily a one-person-use - why not invite Kevin, get a big enough bathtub, throw a large amount of potpourie in and have them both get in the tub? IMO that would still have counted as a loophole.

56 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Yeah, that could have happened before Dabb, when the actual heroes of the show used to be smart and competent.

(from episode thread)

Or if Kevin were a deaf, female, potential love interest for Sam and not just perhaps the most badly-used character on the show, ever. Everyone else, including Charlie, contributed at least somewhat to their own demise, and Eileen was a hunter who knew the risks of the job. Kevin never asked for any of it, did his job (with the tablets) anyway, and got killed by a capricious God-wannabe for no real good reason. Then got trapped in the veil for how long? Then got sent to HELL instead of heaven by another dick. And now, when he could finally be not only freed, but resurrected, they go with the girl. Sorry, Kevin.

[gonzosgirrl]

I kinda hope ghost!Kevin does go mad before it's all over and soundly kicks both their asses before they vanquish him.

[Castiels Cat]

34 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

(from episode thread)

Or if Kevin were a deaf, female, potential love interest for Sam and not just perhaps the most badly-used character on the show, ever. Everyone else, including Charlie, contributed at least somewhat to their own demise, and Eileen was a hunter who knew the risks of the job. Kevin never asked for any of it, did his job (with the tablets) anyway, and got killed by a capricious God-wannabe for no real good reason. Then got trapped in the veil for how long? Then got sent to HELL instead of heaven by another dick. And now, when he could finally be not only freed, but resurrected, they go with the girl. Sorry, Kevin.

I know right. And don't forget how Sam treated him post s 7. Talk about being ghosted. Kevin unlike Sam didn't hit a dog and take a time out. Kevin fought back despite not having grown up in the game and despite having no one to have his back. When Dean came back he was depressed that Sam didn't bother to look for him however he was mad as hell that Sam walked away from their responsibility to Kevin and rightfully so. Kevin survived because he had mad skills. Kevin f'd Crowley the king of the dotted line. He more than anyone deserved to come back to the bunker first and foremost and he deserved first dibs on bath time.

Besides loyalty a prophet might be useful and the current one is kind of nuts.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[gonzosgirrl]

A Tumblr post got me wondering,  has Cas ever beaten up on Sam? I know he broke his wall,  I'm talking physically hit him and/or beat the crap out of him.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

A Tumblr post got me wondering,  has Cas ever beaten up on Sam? I know he broke his wall,  I'm talking physically hit him and/or beat the crap out of him.

The only thing that I can recall is when God!Cas threw him into a wall ( I think? ) at the beginning of season 7. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

The only thing that I can recall is when God!Cas threw him into a wall ( I think? ) at the beginning of season 7. 

Yeah that's the only thing I can recall. 

[tennisgurl]

Well it’s that time of year again, time for my annual holiday A Supernatural Christmas watch! What a great episode, it really encapsulates what I used to love so much about this show. Cool monsters, folklore, creepiness, gore (but not too much) the guys being competent, Feels, flashbacks to Dean being a great brother and John bring a crappy dad, some funny bits, it’s a holiday treat! I also really liked when the show did stuff with the old gods in the first few seasons, before things got all weird and most of them we’re pointlessly killed off in favor of more boring Heaven stuff. But let’s not dwell on the ghost of crappy seasons yet to come, let’s focus on Sam and Deans heartfelt gas station Christmas and Ozzie and Harriet winter gods. “If you fudging touch me I’ll fudging kill you!” It does make me a bit sad that we never got to see Sam and Dean fight the Krampus though. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by tennisgurl

[FlickChick]

@tennisgurl, I, like you, watch "A Very Supernatural Christmas" every year at this time. Somehow it just wouldn't be Christmas without it. It's nice to be visited by "Good Seasons Past". 😉

[hypnotoad]

Well my quest to finish past seasons to be ready for the last season failed miserably. I blame season 14. I hated seasons 8 and 9 but man 14 has tested my patience. TESTED. I just finally got myself to the half way point and I do not have any desire to finish. But I must! I have got to get through this. I wonder if season 15 is any better so far?!? I'm afraid to even look at the episode threads. Cross your fingers for me and wish me luck!!

Edited to add: Were there 1000s of Supernatural fans out there just clamoring to watch Nick blabbing about his family? Sorry but I do not care. There is simply no way for me to care less about Nick/Lucifer at this point. So we spent season upon season listening to Lucifer whining about his father and now we have to listen to Nick whine about his family? Tell me this will end at some point. Oh and I especially loved Nick asking the demon in ep 11 (Damaged Goods) why he killed his family. Really?!? Nick couldn't figure that out?!? UUUggghhh.

Edited December 27, 2019 by hypnotoad

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, hypnotoad said:

Well my quest to finish past seasons to be ready for the last season failed miserably. I blame season 14. I hated seasons 8 and 9 but man 14 has tested my patience. TESTED. I just finally got myself to the half way point and I do not have any desire to finish. But I must! I have got to get through this. I wonder if season 15 is any better so far?!? I'm afraid to even look at the episode threads. Cross your fingers for me and wish me luck!!

I didn't care for 13 because, man, I hate AUs.  So, I was actually enjoying 14 (until the end) because we were pretty much over that.  But, 15 is an atrocity.  Are there some good moments?  Yes.  But, the overall theme or whatever, just, to quote the Ghostfacers, "major suckage."  But, yes, I wish you good luck, because we all have different things we like about the show, so you may end up loving 15.  I hope you do.

[hypnotoad]

Quote

I didn't care for 13 because, man, I hate AUs

Ha. I understand but I like AU's and I actually liked 13. Mostly because I'm a sucker for the feels! Plus John and Mary had some good chemistry. And though I liked the episode overall, it still felt half baked like most of the episodes in this season have. The whole Dean/Michael thing was just weak. I don't really understand what the writers were going for. Either commit to it or don't do it at all. It ended up sort of like Demon!Dean. Oh well finished 14 and only 6 episodes to go!

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

Ha. I understand but I like AU's and I actually liked 13. Mostly because I'm a sucker for the feels! Plus John and Mary had some good chemistry. And though I liked the episode overall, it still felt half baked like most of the episodes in this season have. The whole Dean/Michael thing was just weak. I don't really understand what the writers were going for. Either commit to it or don't do it at all. It ended up sort of like Demon!Dean. Oh well finished 14 and only 6 episodes to go!

I meant Season 13, not epi 13.  Yeah, I liked the episode Lebanon

[hypnotoad]

I finally finished season 14. What a relief. I have to agree with a lot of the comments I saw regarding Jack kind of taking over the season. My gosh ... Jack is sick, Jack is dead, Jack is back, Jack had no soul, Jack is the most powerful power who ever powered. Yikes.

Well onto 15!

[ahrtee]

46 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

I finally finished season 14. What a relief. I have to agree with a lot of the comments I saw regarding Jack kind of taking over the season. My gosh ... Jack is sick, Jack is dead, Jack is back, Jack had no soul, Jack is the most powerful power who ever powered. Yikes.

Well onto 15!

Just "kind of" taking over? 😮

[FlickChick]

18 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

I finally finished season 14. What a relief. I have to agree with a lot of the comments I saw regarding Jack kind of taking over the season. My gosh ... Jack is sick, Jack is dead, Jack is back, Jack had no soul, Jack is the most powerful power who ever powered. Yikes.

Well onto 15!

Good luck!!!!

[gonzosgirrl]

From an EW article on a possible flashback episode, this quote is from Jared:

Quote

Padalecki added, “I would love to see the month after Mary gets burned on the ceiling. I would love to see the story of how John figured out that his wife and the mother of his two kids was involved in hunting.”

Was there ever any indication that John figured out that Mary was involved in hunting? That reveal didn't come until long after his death. I'm trying to recall if there was even a retcon that implied he knew? I don't think so.

[Aeryn13]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

From an EW article on a possible flashback episode, this quote is from Jared:

Was there ever any indication that John figured out that Mary was involved in hunting? That reveal didn't come until long after his death. I'm trying to recall if there was even a retcon that implied he knew? I don't think so.

Well, it`s possible John figured it out and never ever told anyone else ever. But that seems a bit much, even for John. Unless you somehow see his ghost watching "In the Beginning" in Season 4 and going "what the hell?????" That could technically be a story. In a flashback. But I doubt that is what Jared meant.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

From an EW article on a possible flashback episode, this quote is from Jared:

Was there ever any indication that John figured out that Mary was involved in hunting? That reveal didn't come until long after his death. I'm trying to recall if there was even a retcon that implied he knew? I don't think so.

Nope.

[ahrtee]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

From an EW article on a possible flashback episode, this quote is from Jared:

Was there ever any indication that John figured out that Mary was involved in hunting? That reveal didn't come until long after his death. I'm trying to recall if there was even a retcon that implied he knew? I don't think so.

Nobody ever mentioned it, but I suppose if they want to retcon something, it could be John (once he learned about monsters himself) thinking back on Mary's absences and odd habits--like salt lines--putting things together.  (OTOH, that makes her pretty stupid for not recognizing the lights fritzing when the YED shows up.)

They have already retconned that she hunted when Dean was young, and never said what excuse she gave John for being away (and the time she saved Asa Fox had to have been a fairly long absence.)  Maybe he learned about the Campbells at the Roadhouse?  (It always seemed strange that no one had heard of such an "illustrious" hunting family.)  I can see him not telling the boys, because he wanted to keep their fantasy of Mary being the perfect mother.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Nobody ever mentioned it, but I suppose if they want to retcon something, it could be John (once he learned about monsters himself) thinking back on Mary's absences and odd habits--like salt lines--putting things together.  (OTOH, that makes her pretty stupid for not recognizing the lights fritzing when the YED shows up.)

They have already retconned that she hunted when Dean was young, and never said what excuse she gave John for being away (and the time she saved Asa Fox had to have been a fairly long absence.)  Maybe he learned about the Campbells at the Roadhouse?  (It always seemed strange that no one had heard of such an "illustrious" hunting family.)  I can see him not telling the boys, because he wanted to keep their fantasy of Mary being the perfect mother.

Nothing has ever been stated nor implied in Canon either via text nor subtext that John knew before the events of Song remains the Same, which they undid when John's memory was wiped by OG!Michael.

Spoiler

So if they do have John figure it out, his memory would have to come back and even in that case, they would have to undo most of what was said  and done in s1. And what made John an arguably shit father. If they bring JDM back, I bet he has creative control over that because he has always said he wouldn't return unless they pulled back on portraying John as a shit father.

 

[Katy M]

33 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, it`s possible John figured it out and never ever told anyone else ever. But that seems a bit much, even for John. Unless you somehow see his ghost watching "In the Beginning" in Season 4 and going "what the hell?????" That could technically be a story. In a flashback. But I doubt that is what Jared meant.

Well, I wouldn't find it at all weird if he knew at some point after he died.  He did spend a century in Hell and who knows what they talk about down there. But, in life?  Nope, he didn't know.

[ahrtee]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Nothing has ever been stated nor implied in Canon either via text nor subtext that John knew before the events of Song remains the Same, which they undid when John's memory was wiped by OG!Michael.

No, I'm not saying that he figured anything out before Mary died.  At that point, he supposedly didn't even know about monsters/the supernatural.  I'm saying that if they wanted, they could say that, at some time in the 26 years* John was actively hunting before he died, he put two and two together and figured some things out, just like he'd figured out what the YED wanted and never told the boys.  (Especially if he ran into other hunters who knew the Campbells.)  It wouldn't necessarily be as dramatic as if he found out earlier, but it would make sense, which is why they probably won't do it.  

*Oops.  John was only hunting 22 1/2 years, if he started when Sam was 6 months and died at the beginning of season 2.

Edited January 13, 2020 by ahrtee
Fact checking. It's an illness.

[Aeryn13]

But I do think Jared is confused about canon at this point and what came out when.

In fairness. This show has (had) actual canon and a gazillion versions of lol!canons so it's easy to lose sight pf what hasn't been lol-canon-ed yet.

[7kstar]

The years of John figuring out what happened and dealing with raising the boys would be a good series.  You don't have to rewrite cannon because him finding out about monsters and discovering his youngest is wanted by something dark and evil already has conflict.  How does he protect the boys?  How does this change his behavior as a father? 

Now if they are going to say he knew about Mary fighting...that's a rewrite of history that we know. But since the writers can't remember what they have written from one season to another...How can they remember 15 years?

I guess at this point they are just thinking about stories they think will be interesting but since cannon is now LOL you can do whatever you want, right?

 

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

The years of John figuring out what happened and dealing with raising the boys would be a good series.  You don't have to rewrite cannon because him finding out about monsters and discovering his youngest is wanted by something dark and evil already has conflict.  How does he protect the boys?  How does this change his behavior as a father? 

That would be an interesting spinoff.  Maybe Matt Cohen as John?  But they'd  need some pretty good kid actors.  And, of course, some good writers.  ☺️

[ahrtee]

Moved from The Trap thread:

14 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Also I'm not sure that they don't have bodies.

My theory has been that they have hell bodies or purgatory bodies or heaven bodies that they receive when they enter that realm. If they didn't have some kind of body, they wouldn't be able to interact. Dean and Benny wouldn't be able to stand back to back while fighting monsters. Dean wouldn't be able to hit and slash monsters with his handmade weapon.

Now whether that "body" can leave that realm, I don't know - I'm thinking no, which is why Benny traveled inside of Dean.

But that's just my theory.

I'm pretty sure (based on what we've seen/heard) that what goes to heaven/hell or Purgatory is the soul, not the body.  They apparently have "muscle memory"  to think they have bodies or have bodies manifest for them,  or, as you said, there could be no fighting in Purgatory, no torture in hell, and no sitting around reading or going to rock concerts in heaven.  But the soul is the only thing that's real, so it's the only part that can leave its realm. 

Angels and demons can leave any time they want (or at least, whenever they can escape) but they have to then possess a body in order to interact with people.  Since Eleanor and the Leviathan had to find meatsuits as soon as they were free, I'm guessing it's the same for Purgatory residents.  Benny's soul couldn't escape on his own (the portal was an escape hatch specifically designed for humans only) so he had to hitch a ride.  Luckily, he still had his mortal remains topside to reoccupy.  Ditto Dean when he was rescued from hell.   Bobby didn't have a body to get back into (and couldn't possess anyone) so his soul stayed insubstantial.  The soul was then sent to heaven (or, I suppose, it could have been stuck in the Veil.)

The rifts opened by Lovecraft, Cas and Death didn't have the "human only" restrictions.  I don't know if the spell Cas cast to open the rift also included a specific component to allow the monster spirits to come through, or if it was just a doorway. Based on what he needed and the way it was set up, since he got *everything* including things he didn't want, I'm guessing that the spell was to open the rift and attract all the monsters nearby, since he needed the souls fast and wasn't picky.  The rifts Lovecraft and Death opened seemed more like the rift to the AU, that let anything that happened to be nearby through, like the monsters that wandered through into South Dakota (which the Wayward Sisters were supposedly handling/watching).  

I know, I overthink all this.  ☺️  But at least it makes some sort of sense to me.

 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Moved from The Trap thread:

I'm pretty sure (based on what we've seen/heard) that what goes to heaven/hell or Purgatory is the soul, not the body.  They apparently have "muscle memory"  to think they have bodies or have bodies manifest for them,  or, as you said, there could be no fighting in Purgatory, no torture in hell, and no sitting around reading or going to rock concerts in heaven.  But the soul is the only thing that's real, so it's the only part that can leave its realm. 

Angels and demons can leave any time they want (or at least, whenever they can escape) but they have to then possess a body in order to interact with people.  Since Eleanor and the Leviathan had to find meatsuits as soon as they were free, I'm guessing it's the same for Purgatory residents.  Benny's soul couldn't escape on his own (the portal was an escape hatch specifically designed for humans only) so he had to hitch a ride.  Luckily, he still had his mortal remains topside to reoccupy.  Ditto Dean when he was rescued from hell.   Bobby didn't have a body to get back into (and couldn't possess anyone) so his soul stayed insubstantial.  The soul was then sent to heaven (or, I suppose, it could have been stuck in the Veil.)

The rifts opened by Lovecraft, Cas and Death didn't have the "human only" restrictions.  I don't know if the spell Cas cast to open the rift also included a specific component to allow the monster spirits to come through, or if it was just a doorway. Based on what he needed and the way it was set up, since he got *everything* including things he didn't want, I'm guessing that the spell was to open the rift and attract all the monsters nearby, since he needed the souls fast and wasn't picky.  The rifts Lovecraft and Death opened seemed more like the rift to the AU, that let anything that happened to be nearby through, like the monsters that wandered through into South Dakota (which the Wayward Sisters were supposedly handling/watching).  

I know, I overthink all this.  ☺️  But at least it makes some sort of sense to me.

 

You remember more than me. I wish they spent more time on this and less on Sam,,Sam and Sam. 

There's also that opening between Hell and Purgatory... lol.

I am not sure that what amounts to a soul should be able to transport through a rift unless they were sucked through by proximity when it was opened which may be what happened to Dr. V. I think you must need a body to have propulsion energy because the rifts appear dynamic not static.

JMO.

[Castiels Cat]

Reply to Sue B, re; Gambler; Winchester  superpower is changing people.

Dean has a history of changing people... Cas turned against heaven for Dean. Benny. Crowley... who would have thought he would die sacrificing himself for a Winchester hail Mary. AMARA.

Rowena... I think grief over Fergus changed her but having a transactional relationship with the Winchesters that allowed the relationship to develop over time was key.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Smad said:

I thought that was obvious. Primordial beings have no 'look'. We saw what God and Darkness actually 'look' like when they left for their family vacation back in S11. Chuck and Amara are just the human looking 'meatsuits' they adopt. The show can't have them all look like their real selves, they would have no roles for actors and the cgi budget would be insane. Not to mention, can you imagine how stupid it would look to have Darkness in it's original form (black mist) but talking all the time? Remember how the Angels describe what they actually really look like? Castiel is supposed to be the size of the Crysler building. Zachariah was supposed to have several heads. That's what these beings actually look like. But that makes for some actor-less and expensive TV so everyone stays human looking pretty much all of the time (even in heaven).

Death, just like the other primordial beings, exists beyond a meatsuit.

From the BvJ thread.

I always felt like in SPN world, the Horsemen (of which Death was one) were beings in and of themselves. Why would Famine choose the body of a frail, wheelchair bound old man? Or Death, an unassuming, balding old man?

These are legit questions and I don't know the answers.

And then war and pestilence still existed when War and Pestilence were defeated, and famine and death didn't end when the Horsemen were destroyed. So what are they? The 'men' with the plans? Death's work is/was carried out by reapers, but Famine, War and Pestilence all require human cooperation. So are they just the embodiment of the insidious spirits that infect human beings to bring these things on themselves and the rest of humanity?

 

[Smad]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

From the BvJ thread.

I always felt like in SPN world, the Horsemen (of which Death was one) were beings in and of themselves. Why would Famine choose the body of a frail, wheelchair bound old man? Or Death, an unassuming, balding old man?

These are legit questions and I don't know the answers.

And then war and pestilence still existed when War and Pestilence were defeated, and famine and death didn't end when the Horsemen were destroyed. So what are they? The 'men' with the plans? Death's work is/was carried out by reapers, but Famine, War and Pestilence all require human cooperation. So are they just the embodiment of the insidious spirits that infect human beings to bring these things on themselves and the rest of humanity?

 

The first problem one would have to tackle is the inconsistent, expanded or discarded canon of the show. That in and of itself makes discussing this almost impossible. You'd probably have to make your own headcanon for it to fit what you think is going on.

When it comes to the 4 Horsemen, I always view the situation this way: Only one of them is for sure a primordial being, Death. Death 'came to life' as soon as God started creating once Amara was gone (there was no need for Death before, since she always destroyed what God build so balance was maintained...hence why she didn't know Death) because of the whole 'balance' thing. Where there is life there is death. So God had no control over it and he certainly didn't create Death himself.

When it comes to the other 3 Horsemen, they are not primordial beings IMO. I think they were specifically made because we know they can only effect things on a grand scale with the power from their rings and they only come into play during big events. It's kind of in their name, Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I don't think Famine, War and Pestilence are what causes people to have no food, get sick or go to war. They are called upon when God's story wants something big to happen, an Apocalypse if you will, because they can make it happen on a grand scale. Like War said, last time he was in action was WW2 (iirc). Pestilence was probably around for the Black Plague which wiped out half of Europe. But all 4 of them were brought in for the biggest story ever, literally the story of God's book aka the bible. Although probably not for the first time because know from Zacharia that even the Angels had previously brought planetary destruction upon Earth. IMO though those 3 are just part of God's story, unlike Death. But you can't have an apocalypse without Death except Death clearly has to be bound in order to be used (because he is a free agent unlike the other 3).

Not sure if I explained it well enough. I swear it all makes sense in my head.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Smad

[gonzosgirrl]

41 minutes ago, Smad said:

Not sure if I explained it well enough. I swear it all makes sense in my head.

You explained well. 🙂 Your understanding of their roles is logical and jives with what little sense I'd made of it myself. My lingering question is the vessels/embodiments. If they are indeed 'meat suits' (possessed humans) why on earth would they have chosen such weak/frail vessels? (Death and especially Famine). I guess I could see why Death - looking somewhat creepy/scary would enhance his intimidation factor if necessary. But why would it be, when he was portrayed as impartial, only interested in the natural order, and even benevolent when he supported he cause (stopping Lucifer, helping Dean with Sam's soul, etc). And Famine was one of the creepiest villains of the entire series, IMO - but why? Did all those souls he devoured rot him? And did Chuck just whammy three innocent humans when he needed the Horsemen (if indeed Death just 'was'), or did he make them up whole, like reconstituted Castiel post-Swan Song?

[FlickChick]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My lingering question is the vessels/embodiments. If they are indeed 'meat suits' (possessed humans) why on earth would they have chosen such weak/frail vessels? (Death and especially Famine).

I suspect the answer is that "they" didn't choose the vessels. The Boss did to represent what He thinks they should look like to humans. 😉

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You explained well. 🙂 Your understanding of their roles is logical and jives with what little sense I'd made of it myself. My lingering question is the vessels/embodiments. If they are indeed 'meat suits' (possessed humans) why on earth would they have chosen such weak/frail vessels? (Death and especially Famine). I guess I could see why Death - looking somewhat creepy/scary would enhance his intimidation factor if necessary. But why would it be, when he was portrayed as impartial, only interested in the natural order, and even benevolent when he supported he cause (stopping Lucifer, helping Dean with Sam's soul, etc). And Famine was one of the creepiest villains of the entire series, IMO - but why? Did all those souls he devoured rot him? And did Chuck just whammy three innocent humans when he needed the Horsemen (if indeed Death just 'was'), or did he make them up whole, like reconstituted Castiel post-Swan Song?

I don't know about the other 3, but War didn't technically possess a "meat suit."  Sam asked him where the real Roger was and War answered buried.  I mean, I guess he could have been lying, but I don't see the point.  So, he more shape-shifted.   And, I'm assuming did the killing himself.  But, maybe a meteor landed on him.

Death kind of looks like Death.  To me, Famine looked more like Pestilence.  Have you seen anyone more sickly looking?

[falltime]

In 'The Gambler' thread several people commented that they thought the figure in 14x20 to be Lucifer. That has never crossed my mind. I think the figure is the keeper of the empty. I would love to never see Lucifer again.

 

[sarthaz]

Every few days while listening to a playlist at work, Rob's "Fare Thee Well" cycles through, and each time it makes me immensely sad. I started thinking about it, trying to understand why I have such an emotional reaction to it, and now I realize why. That was the moment. That was when Supernatural ended for me. With isolated exceptions, everything since that moment has been garbage, and hearing that song now is like re-opening a wound. I miss our show. 😞

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Every few days while listening to a playlist at work, Rob's "Fare Thee Well" cycles through, and each time it makes me immensely sad. I started thinking about it, trying to understand why I have such an emotional reaction to it, and now I realize why. That was the moment. That was when Supernatural ended for me. With isolated exceptions, everything since that moment has been garbage, and hearing that song now is like re-opening a wound. I miss our show. 😞

For me it was the montage at the end of Regarding Dean. It felt like a goodbye to the character,  and in many ways, it was. I was convinced that they were going to kill Dean. Instead, they killed the whole show.

[trudysmom]

I think for me it was the boys waking up in a monster footprint in the AU.  I thought the show had jumped the biggest shark, no way it could recover.  I have hated more episodes than I've liked since then.  

Was re-watching early seasons this week and the episode when they met Chuck, the 'prophet', had me really yelling at my tv.  He told them he was 'a' god, a heartless, capricious god.  He did apologize for dicking them around so much, but it was lip service.  I kept saying to myself  he left with Amara (also a shark moment, IMO) and has been gone ever since.  I refuse to let Dabb and co. destroy this show for me entirely. Once it's over I'll decide where to draw my own ending and that will be that.  

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

I think for me it was the boys waking up in a monster footprint in the AU.  I thought the show had jumped the biggest shark, no way it could recover.  I have hated more episodes than I've liked since then.  

The introduction of the AU was the point of no return for me too. It was completely pointless.

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

The introduction of the AU was the point of no return for me too. It was completely pointless.

I think the only reason we had the AU was to have some reason for the Wayward characters to be needed - save the worlds and all that crap. Dabb and Berens used at least four (or more) episodes that season to set up their back-door pilot, and when it failed to be picked up, well, we all know the result of that...