All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[ILoveReading]

sorry wrong thread

Edited October 24, 2019 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

On 10/23/2019 at 9:35 AM, Wynne88 said:

Can anyone remind me if any of the AU hunters are still alive?  Most were nameless, but for the life of me, I can't remember what (if anything) happened to AU Bobby and AU Charlie).

It was a dumb concept, but having inflicted it upon the show, I'm curious as to just how thoroughly they swept it under the rug.

We also saw "Jules" in the first episode.  She was one of the AU hunters with a SAG card.

[Morrigan2575]

I love that TNT plays a selection of SPN episodes all day on Halloween.  Monster Movie is such a good episode.

[FlickChick]

4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I love that TNT plays a selection of SPN episodes all day on Halloween.  Monster Movie is such a good episode.

What puzzles me is that TNT keeps showing these short "Welcome back, Supernatural" spots, but my cable carrier always carried TNT and its line-up of Supernatural shows. Did others lose it?

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "speculation thread:"

4 hours ago, FlickChick said:

IMO, the two scenarios can't be compared. We were told in S4 that Dean was the only one who could stop the apocalypse. That continued in S5 until the penultimate episode in which Death told Dean that only Sam could do it - a complete reversal of a two season "arc" for Dean. In S1 - 2, we were told that Sam was a person with special "psych" skills. After Jake killed Sam and Dean brought him back, his special skills remained and since then he has been forever linked to being Lucifer's one true vessel - for umpteen seasons. That was not taken away from him. No one came in and usurped him as the one and only special kid who could kill Lilith with his powers. The fact that in killing her, he played into the hands of the dick angels doesn't change the fact that he was not usurped like Dean was.

But yes, they do recycle many storylines because the writers lack imagination.

That's one way to look at it, but that's not how I saw it. Killing Lilith didn't show up until some time in season 3 after Sam had lost his powers when Azazel was killed - by Dean. And we didn't even learn that Sam was Lucifer's vessel until the beginning of season 5.

But the psychic kids story arc with Sam supposedly as the Yellow Eyed Demon's favorite and Sam supposedly being groomed to be the "boy king" ended for all intents and purposes - despite some red herring blah blah blahing from stunt demons in season 3 - when Jake took over that position starting oddly enough with actions that also happened in the penultimate episode of that arc. Very much like Dean in season 5, in my opinion, Sam refused to do what he was fated to do, and in doing so, he was replaced as the "Boy King" and Azazel's "favorite" by Jake who would do what was needed / wanted. And much like what happened to Dean in season 5, Sam didn't get to take that defiance to the point of ending Azazel, because Dean did that.

Then Sam lost his psychic powers, and had no powers at all for almost all of season 3, so the psychic kids story arc ended at the end of season 2. It was then repurposed at the end of season 3 into an entirely different storyline - killing Lilith and ultimately the angel manipulation, neither of which were even hinted at in season 1 and 2. Lilith wasn't even in the picture then, likely not even an idea, until after the psychic kids storyline was over, and Dean going to hell meant that the the entire storyline had to be revamped. Sam's powers in season 4 weren't even like they were in seasons 1 and 2 or what Azazel had originally intended. Sam had to drink demon blood in order to have those powers and the powers were entirely different and limited to exorcising demons - nothing like what was seen in the psychic kids in seasons 1 and 2.

So for me those story arcs are different story arcs rather than a continuation of one story arc. Yes, there was ultimately a scene showing that Azazel was trying to get a vessel for Lucifer, but in my opinion, that was more of a revamping - not quite a retconning, because they could shove it in there if they pushed really hard. But Azazel's original plan didn't seem to mesh with creating a vessel for Lucifer so much as creating an ally to open the gate and be a leader for his demon army... an army that would have been entirely unnecessary for a raising Lucifer purpose.

And that dark power arc of Sam's in season 4  - which is what killing Lilith morphed into - was then redone in season 9 and 10 with Dean. Although how that manifested, I would have to take to "Bitch vs Jerk" if I was going to talk about it. So nah, not worth it.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam refused to do what he was fated to do, and in doing so, he was replaced as the "Boy King" and Azazel's "favorite" by Jake who would do what was needed / wanted

I never took Jake to be a replacement "Boy King". He was a tool needed to cross the Devil's Trap and open the hell gate. It didnt seem like Azazel wanted him for anything beyond that. Who knows what would've happened if S3 hadn't been curtailed by the writers' strike. IMO Sam's story changed, but it wasn't handed over to another character like Dean/Michael was, twice.

[ahrtee]

53 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Very much like Dean in season 5, in my opinion, Sam refused to do what he was fated to do, and in doing so, he was replaced as the "Boy King" and Azazel's "favorite" by Jake who would do what was needed

Actually, Sam didn't "refuse to do what he was fated to do".  He was killed, and so Azazel was forced to go with his second choice (as he told Dean, he didn't expect Sam to be back in play and was thrilled that he was.)  We don't know what would have happened if Azazel hadn't been killed, but Sam was never replaced in Azazel's mind.

Edited November 2, 2019 by ahrtee

[AwesomO4000]

It depends on perspective. For me, Sam was dropped out of the Azazel storyline. His powers didn't lead to anything and were summarily dropped, he didn't have much to do with the storyline ending, because Dean and John killed Aazael, and instead the arc mostly just morphed into a catalyst for Dean's deal storyline when Sam was killed.

There were some murmurings about the "boy king" in season 3, but that was more in reference to the red herring "did Sam come back wrong" than the actual previous storyline.

I guess it also depends on how you interpret "you will be the one to stop it," because Dean being Michael theoretically would not have stopped the apocalypse, just as technically Sam saying "yes" to Lucifer didn't. Sam had to be the one to fall into the box,*** so Death was right about that, but Sam falling into the box wouldn't have happened if Dean hadn't shown up because he wasn't giving up on Sam, and just as importantly, it wouldn't have happened if Dean hadn't convinced Castiel and Bobby not to give up, either.^^^ No "Hey Assbut," no away time for Michael that would let Sam break free from Lucifer, so technically Dean was the one who stopped it in more ways than one... he just didn't stop it by being Michael's vessel. He stopped it by thumbing his nose at Fate and changing the story by sheer force of will and "screw you guys, I don't care what you say. I'm doing this on my terms."

Which - for me - is the way I'd rather have had it based on Dean's character. I know others disagree to a huge extent, but I wouldn't have wanted Dean to say "yes" to Michael and have some cliched both brothers overcome Lucifer and Michael together ending. (Not my thing, blech.) Michael wasn't Lucifer, in any way, and didn't have Lucifer's flaws and weaknesses. I wouldn't have believed him being overcome that way. Just my opinion on that one, I understand.

But because of that, I don't believe that Dean was necessarily replaced in his story... just in being Michael's vessel. In the end (for me) Dean was still the one to stop it... through more ways than one, but all of them Dean ways. The story changed, but it still happened. Dean still did stop the apocalypse, because without Dean and his influence, it would have happened as predicted.

I might have liked better Dean's role being a bit more active, somehow, but otherwise...

*** Because Michael falling into the box from Dean taking over wouldn't have solved anything.
^^^ And Bobby and Castiel were there because of Dean. Castiel especially would have been content to let the Michael and Lucifer scenario play out. He went to the cemetery because of Dean and only because of Dean. Dean was the only one who could have had that influence on Castiel.

[AwesomO4000]

31 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Actually, Sam didn't "refuse to do what he was fated to do".  He was killed...

Sam was killed because he refused to kill Jake to fulfill Azazel's "there can be only one" thing. And Sam refused to give into accepting his power like Ava did, because he wouldn't accept that he had to be evil. For me that was refusing his fate. Others' opinions may vary.

35 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

He was killed, and so Azazel was forced to go with his second choice (as he told Dean, he didn't expect Sam to be back in play and was thrilled that he was.)  We don't know what would have happened if Azazel hadn't been killed, but Sam was never replaced in Azazel's mind.

It's true that Sam was Azazel's first choice, I agree with you there, but I'm sure he would have made do with Jake if Sam hadn't been brought back.

Dean was Michael's first choice for a long time... but Michael's an ass as far as I'm concerned. And arrogant. If Dean wasn't going to roll over and say "yes", he decided he'd go with someone who would, and he was arrogant enough to think that Adam would do.

Azazel, on the other hand, was a sleaze... and had a thing for Mary, even sealing the deal himself with her using her Dad (ick) - the story made that clear later on, even though it had only been hinted at previously with Mary knowing Azazel - so likely some of the Sam being the "favorite" thing was that (eww). He also would have loved to corrupt Sam and Sam's sometimes rage made it seem tempting to keep hoping for that corruption. Michael was more practical and less hands on. And Dean had dissed Michael - a lot. More and more confidently than Sam had Azazel if I remember correctly - so Michael's arrogance came into play, him not liking being dissed.

For me it had more to do with Azazel's and Michael's personalities than anything else, but I get that others' mileage may vary.

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It's true that Sam was Azazel's first choice, I agree with you there, but I'm sure he would have made do with Jake if Sam hadn't been brought back.

I don't know how much of the entire plan Azazel knew.  If he only knew about the demon army, then sure.  If he knew that Sam and Dean were supposed to be vessels, or that they needed to break the first seal by having a righteous man break in hell, then I can believe that Sam dying and getting Dean to sell his soul was the plan all along.  He could have planted the seed in Dean's mind by not taking only the gun in exchange for healing Dean.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I don't know how much of the entire plan Azazel knew.  If he only knew about the demon army, then sure.  If he knew that Sam and Dean were supposed to be vessels, or that they needed to break the first seal by having a righteous man break in hell, then I can believe that Sam dying and getting Dean to sell his soul was the plan all along.  He could have planted the seed in Dean's mind by not taking only the gun in exchange for healing Dean.

I'm pretty sure all the "special children" were capable of being vessels (that's why they were chosen) and the demon blood was intended to make them strong enough to hold Lucifer, even for a while.  And I'm pretty sure both angels and demons knew about the righteous man being the first seal.  

Whether or not Azazel would have "made do" with Jake has nothing to do with Sam's worthiness (or willingness), just his availability.  He did tell Dean that demons couldn't resurrect people without a deal, so he was very happy that Dean had done it.  

But Ruby (who knew about Lilith and the final seal) said it was always Sam, and *had to* be him, so I don't think Jake would have been a substitute in any event.  Even Adam, in order to be a substitute, had to have the Winchester bloodline.  

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm pretty sure all the "special children" were capable of being vessels (that's why they were chosen) and the demon blood was intended to make them strong enough to hold Lucifer, even for a while.  And I'm pretty sure both angels and demons knew about the righteous man being the first seal.  

I don't think all the special children could possibly have been vessels, or at least not specifically Lucifer or Michael vessels.  And I don't think all the special children had siblings to be Michael vessels.

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But Ruby (who knew about Lilith and the final seal) said it was always Sam, and *had to* be him, so I don't think Jake would have been a substitute in any event.  Even Adam, in order to be a substitute, had to have the Winchester bloodline.  

Yeah, that was kind of my point. If Azazel didn't know the whole plan, Jake would have been fine.  If he did, then no.  I tend to think he knew more rather than less of the plan.  So, I think he manipulated everything from Jake killing Sam to Dean selling his soul.  Maybe not so much Dean actually getting to shoot him.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I don't think all the special children could possibly have been vessels, or at least not specifically Lucifer or Michael vessels.  And I don't think all the special children had siblings to be Michael vessels.

I do think they were all fairly strong vessels, otherwise why choose so specifically instead of just using a dozen random crossroad deals?  Though they weren't specifically Lucifer or Michael vessels.  As I said, I think the demon blood was intended to make them strong enough to hold Lucifer (other vessels can do, like Nick and Rick Springfield, but they fall apart way too quickly.)  

I'm pretty sure the demons wouldn't *want* an equal Michael vessel.  After all, a strong Lucifer vessel vs. an ordinary (more or less) Michael vessel would win easily.  And remember that Azazel intended to kill Dean (ie, Michael) once he got Sam back and the gates open.  That seems to indicate he didn't want a sibling for an equal fight.  That was the angels, who believed they would win in a fair fight.  

[ILoveReading]

From the Atomic Monsters thread:

@PAForrest

Quote

But what was annoying is that even when Dean mentioned her this time, it was a passing reference like she was any other random death, and she comes AFTER Jack - the one who murdered her - who is now first on the list to cry over. So they might as well be naming Ted Bundy as someone they're missing, and everyone is conveniently forgetting that Dean wanted Jack dead and did try to kill him.

They are treating Mary like she was nothing more than one of Sam's nameless, faceless flunkies.  I think Sam was more upset over Maggie.  Sam was actually closer to Mary than Dean was.  (I use that term loosely because Mary really only cared about herself.)

Nothing about the character dynamics make sense .  I mean Sam said if they win they would be free and now they won, he doesn't feel free.  Its like in s13 when he every thing he believed came true and suddenly Sam went into a depression.  Its the writers can't think of any other way to showcase the brother bond other than mopey, whiny, depressed Sam and Dean fussing over him. 

Dean has plenty of reasons to be mad at Cas but they are choosing to have Dean focus on the one thing that Cas isn't responsible for. 

Why is Cas suddenly saying the Winchester never cared about him.  Did Jack erase all his memories when he brainwashed him?

But Jack is back on top of his pedestal, like he did nothing wrong. 

Dean went from "we were screwed to we are free"  pretty much over night.   And Sam is suddenly "we're not" 

Both Sam and Cas seemed to have forgotten that everyone they lost Dean lost too. 

Its like the writers have no clue what to do with any character other than Jack, and they're just using them to fill whatever role their episode needs. They certainly don't talk to each other. 

[PAForrest]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

From the Atomic Monsters thread:

@PAForrest

They are treating Mary like she was nothing more than one of Sam's nameless, faceless flunkies.  I think Sam was more upset over Maggie.  Sam was actually closer to Mary than Dean was.  (I use that term loosely because Mary really only cared about herself.)

Nothing about the character dynamics make sense ...

I edited a bit out of my episode thread post, but the gist is the same and I agree, none of this makes any sense now.

Yes, Mary was a horrible person, and a lot of fans don't miss her at all, myself included. But in terms of Supernatural character dynamics, she's supposed to be one of the most important creations in this 'verse, especially to the Winchesters. But if you didn't know that, if you just walked into the show this week, you'd think Mary was some random the guys knew for about a week. Instead Jack and Rowena get top billing on the Winchester grief chart.

[NougatJack]

Mary died many years ago, as she has been killed by the YED. She should never have been resurrected. Before Amara intervened, Mary has been in heaven, happy together with John. After she got resurrected, she never get used to the fact that suddenly her sons were grown men, then she got in trouble with the BMOL, later she stuck with Lucifer and AU Michael in Apocalypse world, has been tortured... I can only guess how happy she is now that she is in heaven again. 

Amara had no right to take this from her, no matter how much in love she has been in Dean.

Plus, nobody liked her anyways.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, NougatJack said:

Mary died many years ago, as she has been killed by the YED. She should never have been resurrected. Before Amara intervened, Mary has been in heaven, happy together with John. After she got resurrected, she never get used to the fact that suddenly her sons were grown men, then she got in trouble with the BMOL, later she stuck with Lucifer and AU Michael in Apocalypse world, has been tortured... I can only guess how happy she is now that she is in heaven again. 

Amara had no right to take this from her, no matter how much in love she has been in Dean.

Plus, nobody liked her anyways.

So Jack kind of did her a favor by killing her? Dean and Sam should be grateful he put her back to rest?

[NougatJack]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So Jack kind of did her a favor by killing her? Dean and Sam should be grateful he put her back to rest?

No, because I‘m pretty sure that Chuck killed her, but I don‘t think Sam and Dean are grateful. But I think Mary is grateful, as most of the SPN Fans.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, NougatJack said:

No, because I‘m pretty sure that Chuck killed her, but I don‘t think Sam and Dean are grateful. But I think Mary is grateful, as most of the SPN Fans.

But 'we' are not the characters, and the story should be about the characters. There is no way that Dean and Sam would or should be happy about her death, no matter what. This is the kind of whitewashing that makes me loathe Dabb the most - twisting characters into something that goes against years and years of characterization to cram his little Nougat Baby original character into the story.

[NougatJack]

Like I said - Mary should never have been resurrected, so she should never have died again and Sam and Dean should never have the burden to lose her again. 

Amara did nobody a favor. 

[ahrtee]

57 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

Like I said - Mary should never have been resurrected, so she should never have died again and Sam and Dean should never have the burden to lose her again. 

Amara did nobody a favor. 

But once she did it, killing her over again is not the solution, especially after they did have a chance to (sort of) bond again.  Remember Bobby, after his wife was resurrected (and killed again pretty quickly) saying that having her back even for a while made losing her again about 100 times worse?

[Aeryn13]

To me that's the sign of a terribly weak character, that they forever have to be babied, whitewashed and excused. Which is Jack. The character just can't handle even the slightest blowback.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, NougatJack said:

Like I said - Mary should never have been resurrected, so she should never have died again and Sam and Dean should never have the burden to lose her again. 

Amara did nobody a favor. 

This is the crux of what is wrong with the show, IMO. Whataboutism as justification of whitewashing a character, as the expense of the characterization of the two lead characters of the show.

Whether she should have existed or not in no way excuses Jack killing her, and most certainly doesn't make Dean and Sam just forgiving and forgetting that fact make any sense, character wise.

Edited November 9, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Smad]

2 hours ago, NougatJack said:

Amara had no right to take this from her, no matter how much in love she has been in Dean.

2 hours ago, NougatJack said:

Amara did nobody a favor. 

Amara was as new to the world as Jack. She had no understanding of humans. While she should have not brought Mary back, she didn't mean it as punishment for either the brothers or Mary. For her it was a thank you to Dean. 'You gave me my family back, so I give you yours.'. It had nothing to do with being in love with Dean because Amara never was in love with him. It was meant as a nice gesture but Amara's lack of understanding of humans actually turned it into a sort of nightmare.

You can't absolve Jack of the crap he did but blame Amara for hers. Which in the case of Mary was life whereas Jack brought her death. And at least one of them was in possession of a soul during some of their carnage.

[juppschmitz]

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me that's the sign of a terribly weak character, that they forever have to be babied, whitewashed and excused. Which is Jack. The character just can't handle even the slightest blowback.

At first reading one might think you were talking about Cas. Or Sam.

[juppschmitz]

I still can't get over Sam's completely non-sensical shooting of Chuck last season.

See, Dean thinks they're free of Chuck. Which they would be if Sam hadn't shot him. Chuck had killed Jack just to stick it to the Winchesters, and I'll assume with that he might have left this world and gone and created some shiny new Winchester world to have fun with. Which, as we learned last season, was his MO.

But no, Sam went and shot him. Which, had he killed Chuck, would have been the end of the world as we know it, and thank you, Sam, for making this decision for EVERYONE!

But just because they needed another season, and because that final season just had to be Sam centric, just like the first time there was a "final" season with season 5, they (Dabb) came up with this hare-brained idea of fabricating a way to give Sam and GOD a ~connection~

You know, the way Sam had a ~connection~ with Lucifer in season 5.

(No wonder Kripke liked it. And no wonder Jensen needed to be explained why it is the best ending possible. Just like every Dean girl needs to apply some serious mental gymnastics to make even a little sense of Swan Song so that they can see Dean as more important in the grand scheme of things other than be, as people like to call it, the "wind under Sam's wings".)

[PAForrest]

15 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But 'we' are not the characters, and the story should be about the characters. There is no way that Dean and Sam would or should be happy about her death, no matter what. This is the kind of whitewashing that makes me loathe Dabb the most - twisting characters into something that goes against years and years of characterization to cram his little Nougat Baby original character into the story.

There are a lot of things that should never have happened - we'd be here listing them all year if you want to do it that way. But when the showrunners and producers crap those things out, the viewers should at least be able to count on the characters acting true to form regardless of the scenario. This is yet another case of Dean and Sam being wildly OOC to further a plot point in no longer caring about Mary, and worshipping her killer instead. And don't get me started on how much Jack has ruined Castiel.

I totally agree Mary should never have been brought back, if for no other reason than Dabb destroyed her. But larger than that, her original death was the raison d'etre for the entire series premise.

However, if we're talking about characters who should not be, oh dear, the Nougat tops that list. He is Lucifer's abomination, born essentially of a rape in the form of Luci taking over the body of a human being having sex with a human female who was unaware of who and what he was. Lots of viewers don't like him, lots of viewers were thrilled with the, albeit likely temporary, reprieve of his death. And lots of viewers will hate it if the producers insist on bringing him back to life.

Jack is a character who should now stay dead and in the Empty.

Edited November 10, 2019 by PAForrest

[FlickChick]

On 11/9/2019 at 3:00 PM, NougatJack said:

Like I said - Mary should never have been resurrected, so she should never have died again and Sam and Dean should never have the burden to lose her again. 

Amara did nobody a favor. 

But that does NOT change the fact that she was resurrected. Sam and Dean loved their mother and never wanted to lose her again. Jack KILLED Mary. At the time, this devastated both brothers, but especially Dean. So to have Dean go down a list of people they lost and put Jack first is a travesty. It also doesn't make sense to act as though Mary's loss was no big deal. Just poor writing that doesn't have a damn thing to do with what Amara did/did not do.

Or what other posters had to say before me. 😉

Edited November 12, 2019 by FlickChick
Late to the discussion

[FlickChick]

On 11/10/2019 at 6:12 AM, PAForrest said:

There are a lot of things that should never have happened - we'd be here listing them all year if you want to do it that way. But when the showrunners and producers crap those things out, the viewers should at least be able to count on the characters acting true to form regardless of the scenario. This is yet another case of Dean and Sam being wildly OOC to further a plot point in no longer caring about Mary, and worshipping her killer instead. And don't get me started on how much Jack has ruined Castiel.

I totally agree Mary should never have been brought back, if for no other reason than Dabb destroyed her. But larger than that, her original death was the raison d'etre for the entire series premise.

However, if we're talking about characters who should not be, oh dear, the Nougat tops that list. He is Lucifer's abomination, born essentially of a rape in the form of Luci taking over the body of a human being having sex with a human female who was unaware of who and what he was. Lots of viewers don't like him, lots of viewers were thrilled with the, albeit likely temporary, reprieve of his death. And lots of viewers will hate it if the producers insist on bringing him back to life.

Jack is a character who should now stay dead and in the Empty.

This x 1000 as well. I loathe these showrunners/writers with the heat of 10,000 suns!

[juppschmitz]

(Taken over from 15.05 - Proverbs)

@Shannonsspirit Just to clarify, back when Don't Call Me Shurley happened I didn't "know" that seasons later Chuck would return to be the ultimate big bad.

I didn't think when he ~rode off into the sunset~ with Amara after Dean had smoothed things over that we'd ever necessarily see him again. Evil or otherwise.

However, I felt "Don't Call Me Shurley" painted him in a very unfavourable light and he came across to me in that episode as a self-centered, self-absorbed, entitled, spoiled little brat.

I did wonder as season 12 went on how he never bothered showing up and helping even though Sam and Dean clearly could have used some divine intervention in their favour. 

In 13.01 Dean explicitly, desperately, prays to Chuck for help, to bring back Cas, Mary, even Crowley, but... nothing.

So I was definitely not surprised at the turn of events from Moriah onwards.

Bear in mind though that I have stopped watching because I just can't with Dabb, so I may well be missing the finer points (such as there may be).

[Castiels Cat]

8 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

(Taken over from 15.05 - Proverbs)

@Shannonsspirit Just to clarify, back when Don't Call Me Shurley happened I didn't "know" that seasons later Chuck would return to be the ultimate big bad.

I didn't think when he ~rode off into the sunset~ with Amara after Dean had smoothed things over that we'd ever necessarily see him again. Evil or otherwise.

However, I felt "Don't Call Me Shurley" painted him in a very unfavourable light and he came across to me in that episode as a self-centered, self-absorbed, entitled, spoiled little brat.

I did wonder as season 12 went on how he never bothered showing up and helping even though Sam and Dean clearly could have used some divine intervention in their favour. 

In 13.01 Dean explicitly, desperately, prays to Chuck for help, to bring back Cas, Mary, even Crowley, but... nothing.

So I was definitely not surprised at the turn of events from Moriah onwards.

Bear in mind though that I have stopped watching because I just can't with Dabb, so I may well be missing the finer points (such as there may be).

Yes to all of this. I think.all of s 11 speaks volumes about Chick as summed up by Amara in 15:2. I think Chuck showing up for a school play glorifying his work but not ever to help the Winchesters or the world or a prayer speaks volumes and de facto outed him as God.

I also don't think it was a retcon.

In fact Kripke is on record circa s 5 saying Chuck was God even if they didn't officially say so.

IDK. He was a reluctant ally at best.

A lot of the characters fans see as favs or allies are in reality villains or frenemies. It's weird. Gabriel killed  and tortured lots of people for fun and killed Dean hundreds of times and tortured both of them. He was not their friend. He turned on a hair to help them for Kali. It wasn't noble. It was literally for his dick.

I guess funny characters get a pass from fans. Maybe most fans aren't moralists at heart.

[Shannonsspirit]

4 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

(Taken over from 15.05 - Proverbs)

@Shannonsspirit Just to clarify, back when Don't Call Me Shurley happened I didn't "know" that seasons later Chuck would return to be the ultimate big bad.

I didn't think when he ~rode off into the sunset~ with Amara after Dean had smoothed things over that we'd ever necessarily see him again. Evil or otherwise.

However, I felt "Don't Call Me Shurley" painted him in a very unfavourable light and he came across to me in that episode as a self-centered, self-absorbed, entitled, spoiled little brat.

I did wonder as season 12 went on how he never bothered showing up and helping even though Sam and Dean clearly could have used some divine intervention in their favour. 

In 13.01 Dean explicitly, desperately, prays to Chuck for help, to bring back Cas, Mary, even Crowley, but... nothing.

So I was definitely not surprised at the turn of events from Moriah onwards.

Bear in mind though that I have stopped watching because I just can't with Dabb, so I may well be missing the finer points (such as there may be).

It may be a world view for me in the way I was raised and after mastering in the American Enlightenment. Many of the forefathers and writers of the US Constitution were Diests. They believed God created the world, then stepped aside. This encouraged inherent rights and responsibilities, akin to souls(morality) and free will. And, of course, rejects the intrusion of supreme leaders, whether benevolent or malevolent, as humanity needs and should be masters of their own fate.

In Supernatural, the dominant themes of the show, souls and free will, were conceived of and bestowed upon his creation by God. Additionally, Chuck stepped aside to let his creation grow with these components, having recognized that repeated teaching and punishing thwarts growth: reasoned moral choices and responsibility.

So, I thought Chuck's portrayal, explanations and limited involvement to be expected. He would be there, to a certain extent, to guide with world shattering crises caused by man, but would not, otherwise, perch on their shoulders.

[Shannonsspirit]

40 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

In fact Kripke is on record circa s 5 saying Chuck was God even if they didn't officially say so.

IDK. He was a reluctant ally at best.

A lot of the characters fans see as favs or allies are in reality villains or frenemies. It's weird. Gabriel killed  and tortured lots of people for fun and killed Dean hundreds of times and tortured both of them. He was not their friend. He turned on a hair to help them for Kali. It wasn't noble. It was literally for his dick.

I guess funny characters get a pass from fans. Maybe most fans aren't moralists at heart.

When Kripke signed off from the show, he was aware of and acknowledged the editing in Swan Song that showed Chuck in a white suit...as the suggestion he was God. Kripke had never intended to introduce God in his story.

You question the morality of those who defend, embrace  accept(whatever) the frenemies and circumstantial allies? Yet defend etc., Amara and refer to her onslaught as, "some collateral." You also claim that the killing fog, upon her release, is a plague created by Chuck to further the propaganda? She's the Darkness, Nothingness. It is the nature of her very being to destroy into oblivian. She touches a plant and it dies. It may be a huge problem to personify beings beyond our comprehension by giving them intent, and any other human emotions and motivations. Regardless, if  Amara or Lucifer, for that matter, had their way, there would be either nothing or no humans.

[Shannonsspirit]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

 I think Chuck showing up for a school play glorifying his work

He showed up at a school play glorifying the work of the Winchesters, their commitment and brotherly love. Which is the whole point of the story.

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

A lot of the characters fans see as favs or allies are in reality villains or frenemies. It's weird. Gabriel killed  and tortured lots of people for fun and killed Dean hundreds of times and tortured both of them. He was not their friend. He turned on a hair to help them for Kali. It wasn't noble. It was literally for his dick.

I still don't get the love for Gabriel. He spent more time hurting the brothers than helping them. If anything he should have been treated as a frenemy as they did Crowley instead of a beloved family member when he returned in season 13.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Shannonsspirit said:

When Kripke signed off from the show, he was aware of and acknowledged the editing in Swan Song that showed Chuck in a white suit...as the suggestion he was God. Kripke had never intended to introduce God in his story.

You question the morality of those who defend, embrace  accept(whatever) the frenemies and circumstantial allies? Yet defend etc., Amara and refer to her onslaught as, "some collateral." You also claim that the killing fog, upon her release, is a plague created by Chuck to further the propaganda? She's the Darkness, Nothingness. It is the nature of her very being to destroy into oblivian. She touches a plant and it dies. It may be a huge problem to personify beings beyond our comprehension by giving them intent, and any other human emotions and motivations. Regardless, if  Amara or Lucifer, for that matter, had their way, there would be either nothing or no humans.

That is the story Chuck tells to cover his behavior. Since a 11 absolutely nothing has happened because of Amara. 

We do not know why she killed the flower. Maybe because she was sad that all known creation was dying.

All we know was a plague was released when she was released. We do not know that she was the cause. It never happened again. It seems logical to assume it had to do with her Cage opening and nothing to do with her.

The show took great pains to show that she was on a learning curve which perhaps is to be expected for an entity that was locked up for almost all of creation. She took a human vessel and tried to learn. She took souls of those she believed were in pain to end their misery. And finally she chose a better path and as far as we know has not been doing anything to justify the description you insist upon giving her.

Respectfully. I think you drank Chuck's koolaid and bought his bullshit. I didn't. Everything we learned about Amara stank of fake news and misogyny as far as I was concerned and her dialogue in 15:2 was no surprise. Chuck's behavior in Moriah is not a surprise to me. I thought he was behaving like a jerk in s 11 before he showed up.

And I disagree about Fan Fiction. I liked the episode however it was a terrible play. Chuck showing up was for his own vanity. A God that shows up for that... conceited jerk. It ruined the episode for me. I reviewed that episode and watched it excessively and it wasn't just about love and family and hearts and flowers. There was quite a lot going on in season 9 and the episode reminds them both of the road traveled together and the tough road ahead in my opinion. There was subtext and meta.

You are welcome to whatever headcanon you want. 15:2 is now text and it supports my interpretation of s 11.

33 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I still don't get the love for Gabriel. He spent more time hurting the brothers than helping them. If anything he should have been treated as a frenemy as they did Crowley instead of a beloved family member when he returned in season 13.

Ditto. At least Crowley was in love with Dean.

[AwesomO4000]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Ditto. At least Crowley was in love with Dean.

Dean was sort of Crowley's rebound, though, after he got rejected repeatedly by Sam. Sam was Crowley's Marny after all, and Crowely thought Sam could put the S-A-M in S&M.

I keed, I keed. ; )

Seriously though, for me neither Gabriel*** or Crowley should have been even frenemies. This show loves to make Sam have to make nice with beings who did awful things to him though... Gadreel was the worst, but the list is long.

***I've never understood all the Sam/Gabriel fanfic.

22 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

There was quite a lot going on in season 9 and the episode reminds them both of the road traveled together and the tough road ahead in my opinion.

Fanfiction was in season 10. Season 9 was too dreary to have an episode like "Fan Fiction."

I disagree that there was a lot going on in season 9 ... well at least not much that was actually followed through with in my opinion. I thought that the overall story of season 9 was fairly simple. The complicated stuff got left by the wayside in favor of manufactured drama, heavy-handed parallels, and Gadreel's redemption arc.

And if you are meaning that "Fanfiction" was a reminder in season 10 of all that went on in season 9, I disagree with that, also. By the time "Fanfiction" rolled around in season 10, the plot had left behind almost everything that happened in season 9 except for Dean had become a demon and now Sam was feeling guilty and had to save him no matter what. All of the underlying backstory as to why all that happened wasn't addressed. Not in my opinion anyway.

I won't elaborate so as not to veer into "Bitch vs Jerk" territory.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean was sort of Crowley's rebound, though, after he got rejected repeatedly by Sam. Sam was Crowley's Marny after all, and Crowely thought Sam could put the S-A-M in S&M.

I keed, I keed. ; )

Seriously though, for me neither Gabriel*** or Crowley should have been even frenemies. This show loves to make Sam have to make nice with beings who did awful things to him though... Gadreel was the worst, but the list is long.

***I've never understood all the Sam/Gabriel fanfic.

Fanfiction was in season 10. Season 9 was too dreary to have an episode like "Fan Fiction."

I disagree that there was a lot going on in season 9 ... well at least not much that was actually followed through with in my opinion. I thought that the overall story of season 9 was fairly simple. The complicated stuff got left by the wayside in favor of manufactured drama, heavy-handed parallels, and Gadreel's redemption arc.

And if you are meaning that "Fanfiction" was a reminder in season 10 of all that went on in season 9, I disagree with that, also. By the time "Fanfiction" rolled around in season 10, the plot had left behind almost everything that happened in season 9 except for Dean had become a demon and now Sam was feeling guilty and had to save him no matter what. All of the underlying backstory as to why all that happened wasn't addressed. Not in my opinion anyway.

I won't elaborate so as not to veer into "Bitch vs Jerk" territory.

The play within a play in Fan Fiction reminded the Winchesters of their shared history at a critical moment I think.

Crowley had a credible reason to adjust course. One might suppose being injected with Sam's blood changed his outlook in a very real way. He definitely changed after that and he seemed to crave Dean's companionship after that too.

Yeah I never got the Sabriel ship either. Weird. I get that Dean seems to naturally form bro bonds but forcing bonds for Sam really doesn't work. And look... now he had a nice thing with Roweeena finally that felt real.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Proverbs" episode thread:

On 11/16/2019 at 4:06 PM, Castiels Cat said:

The world ends if God dies. This was a plot point in a 11. They went to a bar to drink away their depression.  Killing Amara by exploding Dean whilst Chick faded away meant the end of everything. Dean saved the world with his beautiful speech and family therapy.

Per s 11, killing God ends everything. They can lock him away.

As I remember it, it wasn't exactly like this. Dean did save the world, but he would have saved it either way. Sam wouldn't have let Dean go and blow himself up only to have the world die anyway. He was letting Dean go to blow himself up, because it was the only way to save the world. (I'm not sure what you meant in another post about Sam wanting revenge in season 11. Revenge for what?)

Originally everyone was resigned that Chuck would die and Amarra's darkness would take over. Sam, in one of his usual contrary "I am not accepting this" campaigns, insisted that there had to be some way to fix it, and he bugged the crap out of everyone until they decided to brainstorm a solution. That's where the bomb plan came from. The idea was that if Chuck was going to die - as he was willing to do - then Amarra also had to die to balance everything. Sam's "job" in the final confrontation (besides being cheerleader, it was the only one he got) was to help keep Chuck alive until Dean could blow Amarra up, so that Amarra and Chuck would both die at that same time. That way there would be no unbalance of power and the world would go on without either of them affecting it.

So they weren't waiting in the bar for the end of the world. They were keeping Chuck alive until Dean could get to Amarra and blow her up. Dean just changed that original plan, so that both Chuck and Amarra could live. But it was always in the plan that Dean would save the world. Sam wouldn't have let Dean go and be the bomb otherwise. That was made clear, in my opinion, in the dialogue between them.

So basically killing God could theoretically be on the table... however they would also have to kill Amarra as well. Or Amarra would have to be willing to sacrifice herself.

Edited November 19, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[Castiels Cat]

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "Proverbs" episode thread:

As I remember it, it wasn't exactly like this. Dean did save the world, but he would have saved it either way. Sam wouldn't have let Dean go and blow himself up only to have the world die anyway. He was letting Dean go to blow himself up, because it was the only way to save the world. (I'm not sure what you meant in another post about Sam wanting revenge in season 11. Revenge for what?)

Originally everyone was resigned that Chuck would die and Amarra's darkness would take over. Sam, in one of his usual contrary "I am not accepting this" campaigns, insisted that there had to be some way to fix it, and he bugged the crap out of everyone until they decided to brainstorm a solution. That's where the bomb plan came from. The idea was that if Chuck was going to die - as he was willing to do - then Amarra also had to die to balance everything. Sam's "job" in the final confrontation (besides being cheerleader, it was the only one he got) was to help keep Chuck alive until Dean could blow Amarra up, so that Amarra and Chuck would both die at that same time. That way there would be no unbalance of power and the world would go on without either of them affecting it.

So they weren't waiting in the bar for the end of the world. They were keeping Chuck alive until Dean could get to Amarra and blow her up. Dean just changed that original plan, so that both Chuck and Amarra could live. But it was always in the plan that Dean would save the world. Sam wouldn't have let Dean go and be the bomb otherwise. That was made clear, in my opinion, in the dialogue between them.

So basically killing God could theoretically be on the table... however they would also have to kill Amarra as well. Or Amarra would have to be willing to sacrifice herself.

Hmmm. Ok. if they are both dead then everything is ok.???? Because balance.

I guess I missed that. If Amara dies there is too much light and if Chuck dies there is too much darkness.

I think that episode was so confusing and I knew Dean was not going to blow up because of the bond.

Gotcha

I still say that it's going to be lock him up. They have already admitted that he has already been bad since 4ever. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

The play within a play in Fan Fiction reminded the Winchesters of their shared history at a critical moment I think.

Ah okay, that I agree with, but that had little to do with season 9 for me.

Season 9 seemed to be all about destroying the brother's shared history. One of the things I liked about season 10 - which was illustrated by "Fanfiction" - was that they started rebuilding that history and looking at the brothers' usual conflicts rather than the manufactured ones that seemed to dominate seasons 8 and 9. That and getting rid of the new characters hogging the heroic and narrative spotlight.

[Shannonsspirit]

4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

That is the story Chuck tells to cover his behavior. Since a 11 absolutely nothing has happened because of Amara. 

We do not know why she killed the flower. Maybe because she was sad that all known creation was dying.

All we know was a plague was released when she was released. We do not know that she was the cause. It never happened again. It seems logical to assume it had to do with her Cage opening and nothing to do with her.

The show took great pains to show that she was on a learning curve which perhaps is to be expected for an entity that was locked up for almost all of creation. She took a human vessel and tried to learn. She took souls of those she believed were in pain to end their misery. And finally she chose a better path and as far as we know has not been doing anything to justify the description you insist upon giving her.

Respectfully. I think you drank Chuck's koolaid and bought his bullshit. I didn't. Everything we learned about Amara stank of fake news and misogyny as far as I was concerned and her dialogue in 15:2 was no surprise. Chuck's behavior in Moriah is not a surprise to me. I thought he was behaving like a jerk in s 11 before he showed up.

And I disagree about Fan Fiction. I liked the episode however it was a terrible play. Chuck showing up was for his own vanity. A God that shows up for that... conceited jerk. It ruined the episode for me. I reviewed that episode and watched it excessively and it wasn't just about love and family and hearts and flowers. There was quite a lot going on in season 9 and the episode reminds them both of the road traveled together and the tough road ahead in my opinion. There was subtext and meta.

You are welcome to whatever headcanon you want. 15:2 is now text and it supports my interpretation of s 11.

Ditto. At least Crowley was in love with Dean.

Um? You do realize this is just a TV show, right? The current story is now a stand alone season, where the writers are represented  by Chuck, who is writing how he will end Supernatural in its final season. It's a meta thing. Not unique or interesting; while any bad story telling can now be blamed on their alter ego, Retconned Chuck. Feel free to adopt whatever perspective gets you through this.

[Whimsy]

Hey guys.  It's time to "agree to disagree" and move on.  

[trudysmom]

For those of us who didn't start watching in 2005, but found Supernatural later on, do  you remember the first episode you watched?  I do.  I was home from work, first day of summer in June and TNT aired only part of season 9.  I was flipping through the channels, saw Dean with the blade in his hand, Sam was tied up, Dean was about to go after him, when he suddenly turns and lops off Magnus' head.  WOW.  I watched the rest of the episode, and when it went off, another one came on, but this was the series pilot, lol  Went from hey that guy is really good looking, to hey, that's the same guy only younger.  Did a bit of research and found a gold mine of 9 seasons.  It's safe to say I was hooked!  

[ukgirl71]

It was the summer of 2016 for me and I was flicking through YouTube and had Ms Mojo's "Top 10 Supernatural episodes" come up as a recommendation.  I watched it, loved it, and the rest is history.

[gonzosgirrl]

Pilot was the first episode I watched, but it was while S10 was airing. About a Boy is the first episode I saw live.

I'd seen both Jensen and Jared on 'best' and 'hottest' lists over the years, but I barely took notice because I'm not generally a fan of 'monster' shows. I had a friend in another fandom that we both wrote fanfic for and she kept trying to get me to read SPN stories, but they were pretty meaningless to me without any backstory. Finally, between her hounding me and the endless gifs of the show I saw on Imgur, I decided to give it a shot over my Christmas break. Dean had me from "Easy, Tiger."

[Aeryn13]

I feel like such a dinosaur. I`m a "watch from the Pilot in 2005" viewer because a) the subject matter interested me and b) I followed Jensen over from Dark Angel.  

[ahrtee]

I had a friend in another fandom who was "strongly" encouraging me to watch, even though I hate horror/monster shows.  The first ep I saw was Yellow Fever (unfortunately).  I watched until Dean screamed at the cat then turned it off, thinking it was kind of funny but he was overacting.  But the friend kept suggesting it (and I trusted her judgment on characters) so I saw part of OTHOAP, which did start me watching Jensen, but I had no idea of what was going on.  

I went to one of the SPN sites to read the backstory, so I would at least know who was who, then borrowed the season 1 DVDs from the library and skimmed the first few eps, not paying any major attention.  Skin intrigued me with its insights into Dean, but Faith got me hooked.  I caught up with seasons 1-3 (bought the DVDs!) while watching season 4 (mostly on summer reruns) and have been watching live since then.  The only ep I missed (skipped deliberately) was Bloodlines.  I still haven't seen it all the way through (though I have seen the first 5 and last 5 minutes.)  

[Smad]

I feel old too because I watched from the Pilot on when it originally aired. I love Horror Movies so a show about all kinds of monsters seemed right up my ally. I actually thought the first 5 Seasons (which was supposed to all there is of the show) were for the most perfectly intertwined. I loved the building of the mythology, the smart decision to reveal little about someone so that a bigger reveal later down the line wouldn't feel like a retcon (see Mary Winchester). The demon storyline starting out small until you find out Seasons later what it was all about.

I dropped the show during S7, not because of bad quality but because they killed Bobby. I was well and truly done with Sam by S7 when he got his panties in a twist over Amy (who had killed people) and absolved himself of any guilt over his past actions. Cas had been sort of 'meh' past S5. So there were only 2 characters I liked and they killed one of them off. So I was left with one character to watch for and also wondering why I should continue to watch a show where there is no light at the end of the tunnel. It's just the same old repetitive story.

I binged S7-14 when I heard the show was ending because hey, why not. I used to love it at one point and I would love to know how it ends. And maybe they introduced some new recurring characters that would peak my interest. And of course it had some truly unique and quirky episodes and I was sure they would still do those. I hit a serious roadblock during early S12, the episode after the one with the psychic girl who was shot by Ketch at the end. S12 was already boring but I just couldn't make it through the following episode. Took a break and then forced myself through to the end of S14 and boy was that a struggle. Now I just want to see the train wreck and how big the carnage is going to be.

Also at a certain point it kind of just felt surreal. As if I was drunk and imagined the horribleness of what was happening on the show because surely I must have made that up. What was done to angels and demons, turning them into stupid office workers with fluctuating powers and the brain power of a peanut while taken down by toddlers. The retconning or ignorance of the established mythology. The overuse of one trick pony Lucifer, Cas' inconsistency and pointlessness, the addition of Jack, the destruction and pointlessness of Mary Winchester, the destruction of Crowley and so on.

I'm glad I could binge through all of that. I feel sorry for those who watched this week after week for years.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I had a friend in another fandom who was "strongly" encouraging me to watch, even though I hate horror/monster shows.  The first ep I saw was Yellow Fever (unfortunately).  I watched until Dean screamed at the cat then turned it off, thinking it was kind of funny but he was overacting.  But the friend kept suggesting it (and I trusted her judgment on characters) so I saw part of OTHOAP, which did start me watching Jensen, but I had no idea of what was going on.  

I went to one of the SPN sites to read the backstory, so I would at least know who was who, then borrowed the season 1 DVDs from the library and skimmed the first few eps, not paying any major attention.  Skin intrigued me with its insights into Dean, but Faith got me hooked.  I caught up with seasons 1-3 (bought the DVDs!) while watching season 4 (mostly on summer reruns) and have been watching live since then.  The only ep I missed (skipped deliberately) was Bloodlines.  I still haven't seen it all the way through (though I have seen the first 5 and last 5 minutes.)  

Faith was the first episode I saw however I missed the beginning so I didn't know what I was watching and then we moved and got cable and it took me a long while to find this show again. The next episode I saw was Abandon all Hope...lol. After finishing s 5 I bought the DVD's for 1-4. I own everything but 14. I didn't even think about buying 14. I hate what they did to Dean's storyline.