Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Jonesy]

Well I enjoy Bobby back and don't subscribe to those who thinks the show sucks now.  Still think the show is clearly good--though not perfect...but even SOME of the imperfections are endearing.

[devlin]

WARNING: serious bitterness ahead.

i don’t get how you can go play golf with your friend like nothing is the matter, not go to work and then turn up to the party that night and have everyone act like you’re the second coming. I wish I lived in a world like that!

[Res]

18 hours ago, devlin said:

WARNING: serious bitterness ahead.

i don’t get how you can go play golf with your friend like nothing is the matter, not go to work and then turn up to the party that night and have everyone act like you’re the second coming. I wish I lived in a world like that!

Actually that's what happens to me at work with my coworker. I do all the work. She's the one everyone worships like the second coming.

[SueB]

On 7/21/2018 at 4:45 PM, devlin said:

WARNING: serious bitterness ahead.

i don’t get how you can go play golf with your friend like nothing is the matter, not go to work and then turn up to the party that night and have everyone act like you’re the second coming. I wish I lived in a world like that!

In case you weren’t aware...

Jared has been having a hard time since at least his birthday on Wednesday. On instagram he said the day was ‘rough’ after previously saying ‘this day sucks’  (he edited out the later and replace with the former). Unofficial reports were that the 4 of them got together and decided that Jensen would go alone to press.

if you’ve dealt with legit depression you know no one WANTS to be depressed and it manifests differently for everyone.   I think it got better on Sunday as the day progressed but Jared is NOT skipping interviews because he’s lazy.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just gonna say it. Not gonna argue that it was mutually decided (or decided for them from above), or that Jared is/was struggling with something, but in my opinion, I think Jared skipped the interviews because the majority of the 'hype' (such as it is) is around Jensen and Dean/Michael* and not Sam. While Jensen is and always has been good at being the supportive sidekick when the conversations are about other characters/actors, I have not found that to be the case with Jared. My opinion. 

*and any/every other character not named Winchester

[companionenvy]

Given JP's long established history with depression, that seems really uncharitable. 

[Bobcatkitten]

Yeah, not sure one thing had to do with the other with Jared. There was a mention of him having the flu during the panel so it could be people are just assuming too much and blowing it out of proportion. 

[devlin]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

In case you weren’t aware...

Jared has been having a hard time since at least his birthday on Wednesday. On instagram he said the day was ‘rough’ after previously saying ‘this day sucks’  (he edited out the later and replace with the former). Unofficial reports were that the 4 of them got together and decided that Jensen would go alone to press.

if you’ve dealt with legit depression you know no one WANTS to be depressed and it manifests differently for everyone.   I think it got better on Sunday as the day progressed but Jared is NOT skipping interviews because he’s lazy.

I am well aware of jp’s depression I was just being bitter coz I suffered a severe traumatic brain injury about 10 years ago and I was never afforded such generosity from others. Excuse me for being jealous of him.

[FlickChick]

@devlin, I'm sorry to hear about your injury. And yes, you deserved consideration, empathy and generosity from others. Shame on them. :(

[devlin]

14 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

@devlin, I'm sorry to hear about your injury. And yes, you deserved consideration, empathy and generosity from others. Shame on them. :(

Thank you so much ?

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Yeah, not sure one thing had to do with the other with Jared. There was a mention of him having the flu during the panel so it could be people are just assuming too much and blowing it out of proportion. 

Rich did mention that Jared was nursing the flu when Jared said he got chills watching Jensen's performance as Michael (in the promo we have yet to see).   Sometimes fans get a little jumpy when Jared says he is having a "rough day" and "knows there is love out there somewhere".   I hope it was just the flu.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Given JP's long established history with depression, that seems really uncharitable. 

Not really, at least as far as his struggles with depression goes. I won't ever dispute that. I just see skipping the interviews as as a separate thing. As I said, it's my opinion based on my observations - nobody needs to agree with me.

[Pondlass1]

It was a nice relaxing change to have Jensen solo for interviews pre-SDCC.  No interruptions or joking about.  Jensen rarely gets to finish a thought if he's on the sofa with Jared because Jared just blurts out whatever pops into his head.

I personally don't think for one second that Jared cares that the story isn't about him this time.  He doesn't strike me as that kind of a guy.  He has anxiety issues (apparently) and they surfaced around his birthday time.  He likely was very supportive of Jensen going it alone.  And as a fan of Jensen, it worked out fine for me.

I've been away all weekend and just catching up with SDCC vids.

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I personally don't think for one second that Jared cares that the story isn't about him this time. 

I'm only going to address this one last time, as I am not trying to convince anyone else of my beliefs. But for clarity, I don't think that either - not in the sense that he doesn't want Jensen to have center stage or a focused arc. I believe he is truly happy for Jensen.  IMO it's just that when the conversation isn't about him or Sam, he isn't particularly interested and the attention span goes out the window (thus the antics when Jensen is trying to answer a question in panels). That's my observation and I am not trying to sway anybody one way or the other.

[SueB]

33 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

It was a nice relaxing change to have Jensen solo for interviews pre-SDCC.  No interruptions or joking about.  Jensen rarely gets to finish a thought if he's on the sofa with Jared because Jared just blurts out whatever pops into his head.

I personally don't think for one second that Jared cares that the story isn't about him this time.  He doesn't strike me as that kind of a guy.  He has anxiety issues (apparently) and they surfaced around his birthday time.  He likely was very supportive of Jensen going it alone.  And as a fan of Jensen, it worked out fine for me.

I've been away all weekend and just catching up with SDCC vids.

There's no "apparent" about it.  Jared has written an article in Variety and a whole chapter in a book (FDEWB) about his struggles with depression. He's spoken openly at conventions about seeing a therapist.  

[Mulva]

On 6/29/2018 at 1:35 AM, BlueSapphire said:

I've been watching this show since season 2, but I really stopped giving a crap about Dean's self-hatred and low self-esteem schtick years ago.  That's been definite drinking game material over the years.

Amen!  Enough already! Besides, I find it hard to reconcile the 'low self esteem' with the bossy attitude.

[Katy M]

34 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Amen!  Enough already! Besides, I find it hard to reconcile the 'low self esteem' with the bossy attitude.

I've never thought that Dean has low self-esteem.  Maybe low self-worth, but that's not exactly the same thing.  I have low self-esteem and part of that is having zero confidence in anything and constantly second-guessing myself.  The two times I've tried to take on supervisory roles at work have not gone well, to say the least.  Even though I was perfectly competent in doing the job, I was too afraid to be forceful with others.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I've never thought that Dean has low self-esteem.  Maybe low self-worth, but that's not exactly the same thing.  I have low self-esteem and part of that is having zero confidence in anything and constantly second-guessing myself.  The two times I've tried to take on supervisory roles at work have not gone well, to say the least.  Even though I was perfectly competent in doing the job, I was too afraid to be forceful with others.

I think that is a pretty accurate distinction. There might be certain areas where Dean has low(er) self-esteem like anything to do with academia and where he would try to bluster his way through the situation but other areas where he has - justifiably - higher than average self esteem, say about his looks. Beautiful people usually know that they are. But self-worth is really something else and that is seriously low with him. 

Also, I pretty much share your problem. I`m in that situation at work at the moment and it is utter hell. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I've never thought that Dean has low self-esteem.  Maybe low self-worth, but that's not exactly the same thing.  I have low self-esteem and part of that is having zero confidence in anything and constantly second-guessing myself. 

I think the problem is that the definition of "self-esteem" is sometimes too broad.

I just did a google search - because you bring up an interesting distinction here and one that I agree there is a distinction for - and in the first 5 or so entries, I found different definitions.

• The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (online) defines self esteem as "a confidence and satisfaction in oneself" which seems to combine both things that you are talking about. Which is interesting, because I agree that they are different.***
• The online site "VeryWell Mind" says "In psychology, the term self-esteem is used to describe a person's overall sense of worth or personal value. In other words, how much you appreciate and like yourself." which very much goes towards a person's self worth rather than confidence... which the definition and previous discussion on that site doesn't even seem to make mention of confidence. So interesting in the difference there and the above definition.
• On another psychology bent site there was this: "According to self-esteem expert Morris Rosenberg, self-esteem is quite simply one’s attitude toward oneself (1965). He described it as a 'favourable or unfavourable attitude toward the self'."
• Perhaps most illustrative comes from the Cambridge Dictionary (online). It gives two definitions. One for "self-esteem in "American English": which is "respect for yourself" and one for "self-esteem" in "English" which is "Belief and confidence in your own ability and value."

So maybe here in this situation, I would guess low self-esteem can fit Dean. Whereas maybe lack of or low self-confidence would be more what the three of us maybe suffer a bit from?

But I can definitely see where the confusion comes in, because half of the definitions have "confidence" in there, and the other half don't even mention confidence at all.

 

*** TMI: I am fine with myself and my self worth... but at the same time, I am not so confident concerning getting my point across and am uncomfortable trying to be a leader in a situation. I'm a bit strange and don't generally play well with others... especially other women for some reason. Don't know why. Sort of like Elaine in Seinfeld, other women don't tend to like me very much and find me annoying *shrug,* so me in a group of women? Definitely a lack of confidence there on my part. I also have issues with thinking that people don't listen to me - probably part truth and part me being paranoid - which leads to me sometimes repeating myself... which I realize is annoying, and again is a confidence issue.

Edited to add:

Quote

I have low self-esteem and part of that is having zero confidence in anything and constantly second-guessing myself.  The two times I've tried to take on supervisory roles at work have not gone well, to say the least.  Even though I was perfectly competent in doing the job, I was too afraid to be forceful with others.

Quote

@Aeryn13: Also, I pretty much share your problem. I`m in that situation at work at the moment and it is utter hell. 

I sympathize with both of you. I consider myself supremely lucky that I get to work on my own and in the rare group situations that pop up, generally don't have to be the leader. I still remember - vividly - one time I tried to lead a small group in a college class and let's just say it would be a scenario that would repeat as one of my punishments in hell if I believed in hell *shudder.* Here's hoping that you both get through. And good luck.

Edited July 24, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[raven]

It is fine to criticize the characters and actors here.  Everyone is allowed their opinions about them as well as the show that others may not share or agree with.  Refer to the posting guidelines on what is acceptable to post and where and stay on topic, please.

[trxr4kids]

IMO Jensen and Jared are separate individuals who are perfectly capable of functioning, I dare say, excelling, independently. They don't have to be joined at the hip on set to deliver great performances.

They don't seem to be joined at the hip during breaks and yet during those times we get, IMO the most sincerely happy and relaxed photos of them and their wives and children : ie ; their real families. 

Just because they are friends who consider themselves as close as brothers it doesn't/shouldn't imply some warped codependency. 

[SueB]

6 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

IMO Jensen and Jared are separate individuals who are perfectly capable of functioning, I dare say, excelling, independently. They don't have to be joined at the hip on set to deliver great performances.

They don't seem to be joined at the hip during breaks and yet during those times we get, IMO the most sincerely happy and relaxed photos of them and their wives and children : ie ; their real families. 

Just because they are friends who consider themselves as close as brothers it doesn't/shouldn't imply some warped codependency. 

If that is coming from my comment ... ‘codependency’ is not remotely what I was saying.  ‘Less fun’ is hardly crippling.  

[Bobcatkitten]

Codenpendency is taking my comment a bit far as well. Jeez, I have a colleague of work who I bounce ideas off, we carpool to events, we share our lives. If he suddenly wasn't there every day it would definitely take some getting used to. I'm a professional and can still do my job, of course. But it wouldn't be as fun. It would seem more like work. 

[trxr4kids]

Although the the discussion in spoilers and speculations inspired my previous post, it wasn't a response to the discussion as I didn't infer from your ( @SueB @Bobcatkitten ) specific comments that either of you meant or implied these two things:

10 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

They don't have to be joined at the hip on set to deliver great performances.

 

10 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

Just because they are friends who consider themselves as close as brothers it doesn't/shouldn't imply some warped codependency. 

I was reminded that many do wholeheartedly feel that way though. I've watched a lot of con videos lately and read quite a few discussions wherein both of those opinions were clearly the mindset of the person asking the question or posting their opinion (I can't stop myself from reading comments on con videos and spent too much time at reddit), which irks me and was why I posted here since it seems to be a very large or at least very vocal segment who feels that way, making my opinion an unpopular one.

The PTB have themselves said many times that Dean and Sam must be joined at the hip and IMUO the show suffers for it.  S8 could have been infinitely better had they shown us both characters journeys separately leading up to a point of reunion after several episodes, instead of disjointed crappy flashbacks that didn't fully inform either characters mindset at the point of reunion.

S10 is another example of the shows unwillingness to separate them, truncated SL be damned. Putting aside that I found many parts of Fanfiction great, their initial reactions, the child actors, Sam's musings about ship names, burning Mary (that last one especially gives me warm fuzzies now) I don't think I'll get over the bitterness I feel about the show turning Dean into his worst nightmare and then going, meh he's better now let's sing.

S12: instead of having Sam and Mary do their thing with the Brits and Dean doing his own thing, which could have included hunting with a variety of other hunters both old and new, we got whatever the hell that was all for the sake of keeping them attached. 

Honestly they should just have Rowena cast a spell to make them conjoined and be done with it.

ETA: As to my opinion/comment about the friendship between Jensen and Jared I can only say that tinhatters exist and somehow at least one of them seems to manage to ask a IMO disturbingly leading question in 90% of the convention footage I've seen. The comments under most con videos can be as hysterical as it is disturbing. Again just my opinions, no one need agree.

Edited July 28, 2018 by trxr4kids

[Casseiopeia]

39 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

, burning Mary (that last one especially gives me warm fuzzies now)

That is too funny!  Dean bobbing his head to "it killed my mother" will now be my favorite part of FF.

[trxr4kids]

11 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

IMO Jensen and Jared are separate individuals who are perfectly capable of functioning, I dare say, excelling, independently. They don't have to be joined at the hip on set to deliver great performances.

Speaking to this point since I trailed off from it in my epic rant about Dean and Sam being practically conjoined at this point, some of my favorite and IMO best performances given by either actor in recent years are when they're in scenes with other actors. I think after 13 years they're very comfortable with each other, which is great but maybe not very challenging and they both seem like people who like challenging themselves.

I know quoting myself is obnoxious but I'm too tired to care, sorry not sorry ; )

Edited July 28, 2018 by trxr4kids
their and they're

[Myrelle]

59 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Although the the discussion in spoilers and speculations inspired my previous post, it wasn't a response to the discussion as I didn't infer from your ( @SueB @Bobcatkitten ) specific comments that either of you meant or implied these two things:

 

I was reminded that many do wholeheartedly feel that way though. I've watched a lot of con videos lately and read quite a few discussions wherein both of those opinions were clearly the mindset of the person asking the question or posting their opinion (I can't stop myself from reading comments on con videos and spent too much time at reddit), which irks me and was why I posted here since it seems to be a very large or at least very vocal segment who feels that way, making my opinion an unpopular one.

The PTB have themselves said many times that Dean and Sam must be joined at the hip and IMUO the show suffers for it.  S8 could have been infinitely better had they shown us both characters journeys separately leading up to a point of reunion after several episodes, instead of disjointed crappy flashbacks that didn't fully inform either characters mindset at the point of reunion.

S10 is another example of the shows unwillingness to separate them, truncated SL be damned. Putting aside that I found many parts of Fanfiction great, their initial reactions, the child actors, Sam's musings about ship names, burning Mary (that last one especially gives me warm fuzzies now) I don't think I'll get over the bitterness I feel about the show turning Dean into his worst nightmare and then going, meh he's better now let's sing.

S12: instead of having Sam and Mary do their thing with the Brits and Dean doing his own thing, which could have included hunting with a variety of other hunters both old and new, we got whatever the hell that was all for the sake of keeping them attached. 

Honestly they should just have Rowena cast a spell to make them conjoined and be done with it.

ETA: As to my opinion/comment about the friendship between Jensen and Jared I can only say that tinhatters exist and somehow at least one of them seems to manage to ask a IMO disturbingly leading question in 90% of the convention footage I've seen. The comments under most con videos can be as hysterical as it is disturbing. Again just my opinions, no one need agree.

I wish I could like this post a million times. And re the bolded part, I'll just add that because of those comments and questions and the loud and vociferous nature of these segments of fandom especially and IMO(and I'd put the Bros Only in this category, too) it's my belief that the PTBs AND the actors think that the majority of fandom feels this way about both the actors and their characters, when, in truth, those segments are not as large as they are just loud(again IMO and from what I've seen of and read on twitter and tumblr-the two SM outlets that the writers and producers of this show seem most familiar with and seem to want to cater to more than any others). And I'm not sure if the PTBs even understand the concept of sock puppets and multiple screen names as regards that loudness factor.

So, IMO, it would require them to grow a backbone and basically say no to these segments(no matter how loud they get) just one time and I think they might actually see the rating rise instead of what they've been doing for so long now-which is hovering around 2mil on good days(although I think even that number has dropped off, too) and dropping to under 1.5 mil on bad ones. And I know that all kinds of reasons can be given for this, but I honestly feel that those fans who are still watching now will likely never give up watching the show and the thought that is being ignored by the PTBs is the idea that there might be some who would be willing to come back IF they would just try changing things up by not making everything so predictable in order to keep the bros joined at the hip for the loud minorities.

To me it just feels like the writing has stagnated greatly because of this unwillingness to be more bold and keep the actors and their characters separated for more than 3 episodes within the storytelling and as regards certain storylines, but even this could be worked around within the storytelling if the writers would get off social media and stop reading fan input and instead focused more on being creative within the writing so that, as this post pointed out, we might get better and more interesting storytelling and storylines for both main characters out of them. Anything else I'd have to say on this last part will be taken to the B vs J thread, just not today though as I'm still too bummed out by all of what came out of Comic Con concerning the Dean/Michael storyline to write about it at the present time. I just don't have the energy right now.

[gonzosgirrl]

No idea of the validity of it, but I saw this on Twitter after the birthday tweet kerfuffle.

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

No idea of the validity of it, but I saw this on Twitter after the birthday tweet kerfuffle.

  That is pretty disturbing if it is true.  Their set is very well known for being a fun welcoming place to work.  I would think the J's have enough clout to have a situation like that dealt with.

[ILoveReading]

Someone on my twitter timeline said they were in Jared's meet and greet and that this was not true. 

[Aeryn13]

It would strike me as bizarre really. I mean who, cast or crew, would bully one of the leads? He could probably get anyone dismissed from the show, other than Jensen.  Not to mention that seems odd to share at a Con with fans, even in a M&G scenario. 

[gonzosgirrl]

50 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It would strike me as bizarre really. I mean who, cast or crew, would bully one of the leads? He could probably get anyone dismissed from the show, other than Jensen.  Not to mention that seems odd to share at a Con with fans, even in a M&G scenario. 

It is odd (or would be), but it's also odd, as a fan, to tweet something like that without foundation. Fandom is a strange beast. 

[devlin]

4 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

  That is pretty disturbing if it is true.  Their set is very well known for being a fun welcoming place to work.  I would think the J's have enough clout to have a situation like that dealt with.

Good grief. If what he said is true, it must be tiring to have a constant victim mentality like Jared does 

[Ninamags]

The entirety of your post could be said EXACTLY about Castiel, Myrelle.

When was the last time he was relevant? When was the last time he actually helped anyone?  He can heal people, except when he can't. He can transport himself, except when he can't. The angel storyline is beyond tired. Heaven is supposedly dying yet he's still on earth, why?  

His minions are purported to be many.  They constantly bug and bully the show producers and writers.   The brother fans make nowhere near the amount of noise you seem to claim they do.  Sock puppets and multiple screen names were invented by the Castiel/Misha minions. 

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Ninamags said:

 Sock puppets and multiple screen names were invented by the Castiel/Misha minions. 

I highly doubt this since I first learned of their existence long before Castiel was even written onto this show, and I'm sure they've been around long before SPN was even imagined, and this, even though this is my first fandom experience(and will likely be my last). But I'm not going to argue or discuss which subset of the SPN SM fandom is worse because they're all the same to me and my point was that the writers/showrunners/producers of this show should stop trying to cater to them(ANY! of them) and they should instead focus on producing good, original, and cohesive storylines sans the SM feedback they get because that's what makes for good, original, and cohesive storytelling. IMO, of course.

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It is odd (or would be), but it's also odd, as a fan, to tweet something like that without foundation. Fandom is a strange beast. 

To me, the only thing stranger than JP bringing this up at a M&G, is someone making that story up.

[Aeryn13]

I don't think it's unusual to make something like this up. Fans have made increasingly bizarre claims over the last few years. I believe that being made up right away.

[MysteryGuest]

I think this is part and parcel of getting just glimpses into their private lives.  We know Jared suffers or suffered from depression because he's been open about that, and when he sends out a cryptic tweet about having a bad day, people are left to fill in the blanks.  It could have been something as simple as hitting that 36 milestone.  He's now closer to 40 than 30 and aging hits all of us in different ways.  25 was a bad year for me.  Somehow knowing I was a quarter century old really threw me.  

I honestly don't know whether Jared was depressed or coming down with something, or anything else for that matter.  Jensen has stepped up to the plate more than a few times when Jared needed a break for whatever reason.  I don't think it's a big deal.  They're very different people.  I think Jensen would be content to sit through a panel and not say a word, and Jared sometimes can't seem to stop talking.  Honestly, for all we know, Jared may have wanted Jensen to have the spotlight to himself this time.  Or he just felt like shit and wasn't up to it, whether physically or emotionally.  These guys are pros, and I think they could do these promos in their sleep at this point.  And they're grown men.  If Jensen had an issue and thought that Jared was just bailing on him, I have no doubt he'd have said something.  

As for allowing someone on set to badger Jared for almost a week without anyone intervening, that just doesn't ring true to me.  

[FlickChick]

6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

And they're grown men.  If Jensen had an issue and thought that Jared was just bailing on him, I have no doubt he'd have said something.  

I doubt this very much. Jensen may say something to Jared privately, but I don't think Jensen would EVER publicly say something negative about Jared - especially if Jared wasn't there to defend himself.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I doubt this very much. Jensen may say something to Jared privately, but I don't think Jensen would EVER publicly say something negative about Jared - especially if Jared wasn't there to defend himself.

And that's how it should be.  I think the point is that they are adults and if they have problems with each other they will work them out themselves and they don't need "help" from the fandom.

[MysteryGuest]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

And that's how it should be.  I think the point is that they are adults and if they have problems with each other they will work them out themselves and they don't need "help" from the fandom.

Yes, I never meant that Jensen would ever say anything to the fanbase about a disagreement he might have with Jared.  It's none of our business.  I just meant that they spend a damn lot of time together, so if something is eating at either one of them, I would think they've learned to air it pretty quickly and not let it fester.  We know from past cons that Jensen feels a certain amount of protectiveness toward Jared.  That much he's clearly shown us.  So if Jared was having a bad time, Jensen volunteering to do the media by himself wouldn't surprise me at all.  I think Jensen has even done that when all Jared was suffering from was a bit of a hangover from a late night out, so it doesn't necessarily have to mean anything serious was wrong with him.  

[trxr4kids]

If John had been the parent resurrected and acted like Mary has towards Dean and Sam, it would not only acceptable to rake him over the coals for it but applauded.

John was a shitty father who put hunting above his sons happiness in many ways however it was clear that there were extenuating circumstances IMO:  His world order and views were turned upside down. He had to adapt and adjust quickly to keep his children safe. He clearly learned Mary's death was about Sam in some way, yet instead of dropping him off on a doorstep he chose to keep him and try to save him by removing the threat against him until the end of his life, passing that unfair burden onto Dean knowing IMO that his "look out for Sammy" mandate would be followed. 

Mary stuck her head in the sand knowing full well about the risks. I don't buy that Michael removed her memories of the deal because of her rapid reaction in the pilot to Azazel. We've seen characters recover memories and it wasn't a blink and miss it moment. I think he just removed the memories of TSRtS.

Mary didn't have to be a "perfect mother" whatever the hell that is, she just needed to make an effort. She didn't make an effort to protect them using available resources (the Campbell library, the hunting community) or knowledge she already possessed ie: devils traps, iron, salt. 

If I'm going to judge every other characters actions/words ( especially Dean and Sam) based on shitty writing I'm damn well going to judge her too. 

Jared is criticized often for his straightforward delivery of dialogue in that he doesn't soften harsh words with facial expressions, (IMO) he seems to add strength to words spoken in the heat of the moment via angry/bitchy facial expressions. What makes Sam Smith so damn special that she's above reproach, both as an actress and character?

[Katy M]

43 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

If John had been the parent resurrected and acted like Mary has towards Dean and Sam, it would not only acceptable to rake him over the coals for it but applauded.

Not by me.  Pretty much the only thing I criticize JOhn for is his neglect when they were kids. That and I think it was stupid to sell his soul, but that's another matter.  It wouldn't make sense for John to act the same way Mary did when she came back, because he knew the boys as adults. It wouldn't be as much of a shock to him.

 

45 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Mary stuck her head in the sand knowing full well about the risks. I don't buy that Michael removed her memories of the deal because of her rapid reaction in the pilot to Azazel. We've seen characters recover memories and it wasn't a blink and miss it moment. I think he just removed the memories of TSRtS.

I don't believe Michael removed her memories re: the deal either, for the reasons you stated.  But, Azazel told her he would come for something she would never miss.  Her deal was made 10 years before Sam was born, not 10 years from his 6 month birthday.  She very well may have thought it had been fulfilled.  

[AwesomO4000]

37 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't believe Michael removed her memories re: the deal either, for the reasons you stated.  But, Azazel told her he would come for something she would never miss.  Her deal was made 10 years before Sam was born, not 10 years from his 6 month birthday.  She very well may have thought it had been fulfilled.

I think 10 years was maybe around Sam's 6 month birthday? How many years from the deal was Mary pregnant with Dean? (which she found out about in "The Song Remains the Same"). We only know that Dean is about 4 years 3 months older than Sam, so 1/2 a year more (Sam's 6 month B-Day) would make almost 5 years.*** If Mary made the deal about 5 and a bit years before Dean was born, that would make Sam's 6 month birthday at the 10 year mark.

*** Which now that I think about it, this would make Dean closer to 5 when the fire happened which makes more sense to me now that Dean would have more vivid memories of it.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think 10 years was maybe around Sam's 6 month birthday?

The newspaper John was reading in the café said April 30th, so unless he was reading a 6 month old newspaper, or the episode took way longer than it seemed, the deal was made 10 years before the actual birthdate.  We know Sam's birthday is May 2nd, and that Mary died November 2nd.

[AwesomO4000]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The newspaper John was reading in the café said April 30th, so unless he was reading a 6 month old newspaper, or the episode took way longer than it seemed, the deal was made 10 years before the actual birthdate.  We know Sam's birthday is May 2nd, and that Mary died November 2nd.

Interesting. I wonder if that was supposed to be the date originally, because the episode was aired in October... and I know it takes place in the past, but usually the writers keep things close to the time of year of the episodes. And October would've been closer to the time of Sam's 6 month B-day.

And really that seems odd that Azazel would say 10 years but it would actually be 10 years 6 months. The demons are usually pretty on the nose with that 10 year thing.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, trxr4kids said:

Mary stuck her head in the sand knowing full well about the risks. I don't buy that Michael removed her memories of the deal because of her rapid reaction in the pilot to Azazel. We've seen characters recover memories and it wasn't a blink and miss it moment. I think he just removed the memories of TSRtS.

Well,  considering everything we learned about Mary then (and especially now) it makes more logical sense to me (for the reasons I stated in the Mary thread) that Mary was made to forget, rather than SuperMary, badass hunter extraordinaire, who'd been hunting all through Dean's childhood and was raised in a family of hunters going back to the Mayflower, just wouldn't bother to ward her house, especially since she knew there was a threat.   And as you said, she had all the Campbell resources to pull from.  Even their family "safe house" in TSRTS was heavily warded and filled with various protections, so there's no reason that Mary's own home--where her "civilian" and therefore totally vulnerable children and husband were--shouldn't be even more carefully protected, even if they were hidden so John wouldn't question them.   So I guess it all comes down to if you believe that Mary was really that stupid, blind and/or arrogant.  I don't. Not when it was her family at risk.  If she hadn't been hunting at all I might have accepted the "head in the sand" attitude (though I'd still think she's have warded the house just on general principle), but since she was apparently hunting werewolves in Canada I think she'd have taken some time to at least worry about the deal.

I'm sticking with "outside influence in order to achieve the angel's goals."  *shrugs* 

About Mary's "instant" reaction to Azazel--how about Zachariah touching Dean Smith's forehead in It's a Wonderful Life and in one blink he was Dean Winchester again?  (I think he actually did say something like "You...you're an angel, aren't you?" immediately, which seems to equate to the blink and "It's you!") :) 

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't say that one line, written 11 years ago (we didn't hear it until AHBL) and one reaction shot proves (or negates) anything.  They've certainly retconned enough, handwaved (or assumed no one would notice) enough and just plain ignored enough for me to prefer to go with the logic of how the characters as I see them would act.  Naive, I know, and YMMV.  

 

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And really that seems odd that Azazel would say 10 years but it would actually be 10 years 6 months. The demons are usually pretty on the nose with that 10 year thing.

That's why I assume @Katy M said that Mary might have thought the danger was already past, since Azazel said what he wanted was something she'd never miss.  She thought he'd already been and gone.  

[catrox14]

I don't see how she could have been made to forget the deal given the scene where it's shown that she says "You" or whatever it was, she knew who was there and ostensibly why.  So, if that memory was completely erased by Michael, then it was never there for her to even be triggered into remembering.  It didn't exist.

I fall on the side that Mary was in the deepest kind of denial one can be in and we saw her have that capacity in 12.22 when she was ignoring Dean.  Yes, she had been brainwashed but she was choosing it as well to an extent.  Perhaps her being a person who slides into real denial of her own account, made that brainwashing a little easier, to get her to stay in that spot because she couldn't face her mistakes. 

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Interesting. I wonder if that was supposed to be the date originally, because the episode was aired in October... and I know it takes place in the past, but usually the writers keep things close to the time of year of the episodes. And October would've been closer to the time of Sam's 6 month B-day.

And really that seems odd that Azazel would say 10 years but it would actually be 10 years 6 months. The demons are usually pretty on the nose with that 10 year thing.

I'm going with the date discrepancy being a continuity error vs intentional.  I don't think they probably thought about the date of the newspaper in "In the Beginning" at all.  Or maybe Azazel had to wait until Sam was born to start his clock for the deal. 

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Interesting. I wonder if that was supposed to be the date originally, because the episode was aired in October... and I know it takes place in the past, but usually the writers keep things close to the time of year of the episodes. And October would've been closer to the time of Sam's 6 month B-day.

And really that seems odd that Azazel would say 10 years but it would actually be 10 years 6 months. The demons are usually pretty on the nose with that 10 year thing.

I think they did it purposely because they were making the 10 year date to his birthday, not the date that he was actually going to do his deed.  I mean if it was unintentional, it's a heck of a coincidence that it ended up being exactly on Sam's birthday.  April 30th, Dean had dinner with the fam, May 1st, they were checking out the farm and May 2nd, boom, deal.

[trxr4kids]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

So I guess it all comes down to if you believe that Mary was really that stupid, blind and/or arrogant.  I don't.

I do.

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

About Mary's "instant" reaction to Azazel--how about Zachariah touching Dean Smith's forehead in It's a Wonderful Life and in one blink he was Dean Winchester again? 

Except there was no angel tap to the forehead and demons and angels at that point in time had separate powers.