Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Except that Castiel was acting weirdly most of the season and had been proven to be untrustworthy because of Angel Who Isn't Samantha Carter (for some reason, I can never remember that character's name) controlling him. And considering Castiel broke Sam's brain before he even got hopped up on all of those purgatory souls in season 6 - meaning that Castiel thought about and actually decided that breaking Sam's wall and potentially killing him was a legitimate strategy to persuade Dean to his side, then, well... Yes, Castiel is Dean's best friend, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have his own moments of stupid and untrustworthiness, just like Sam.

Cas was acting weird but Cas had proven himself to Dean over the years and he rejected Heaven for Dean and to help stop the apocalypse.  That's a pretty big sacrifice.  Cas took on Sam's broken brain to make up for having broken it in the first place.  Cas makes mistakes but he tries to make up for them after the fact.  Dean told Cas he was family just a few episodes before Metatron put his plan into place.

But Sam's beef was not with things that Cas did, Sam's beef was with Dean trusting Cas.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I agree about absolutes - nobody is perfect - including Sam and Dean. However, I agree with catrox, that the comparison of Amy Pond and Benny is a poor one. Amy had killed several people (however bad they were) and Benny had not killed any humans. But I believe that Sam immediately distrusted/disliked Benny and was not open to other ideas/feelings about him.

Dean didn't know Amelia at all. What Dean was pissed at was that Sam didn't look for him, gave up hunting, ditched his phones, didn't try to find out what happened to Kevin, and ran off to a life with a "girl". He finds all of this out as soon as he returns to our world after fighting for his life for one solid year! I'd be pissed too. I thought that Dean had every right to be angry with Sam, and yes, disappointed in him. JMO.

In two paragraphs you just summed up what I've been trying to write for about 15 minutes now.  I can go on much longer, but I think you've summed it up well.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have to say that is an interpretation of that scene I've never read before.

Does that mean that the moment Sam killed the Hellhound and gave Dean the speech about seeing a light at the end of the tunnel when Dean didn't wasn't the real reason he opted to do the trials? 

I think that was one reason.  At that time Sam didn't know that the trials would end up killing him.  He thought he could survive them (although I don't know how he could have thought "having his spined ripped out through his mouth for all eternity" would have been survivable).  He wanted a life outside hunting and he wanted to make sure that Dean could also have a life.  To Dean it was a suicide mission.  And I also believe he took on the trials in order to prove to Dean that he could get the job done.  Dean could trust him.

[MysteryGuest]

The only way any of this works for me is if I just consider season 8 to be an aberration for Sam.  He might not have looked for Dean for several valid reasons, but he would never have been so cavalier about those reasons when discussing them with his no-longer-dead brother.  Sam acted almost put out by Dean's return, which was absolutely ridiculous, and completely out of character for Sam.  And 5 minutes after he finds out his brother is actually alive, he's making snide comments under his breath because Dean has a bad attitude after being in Purgatory for a full year?  Again, this would not happen with the Sam that we know.  The writers fucked up.  I have no idea what they were trying to do, but it failed in an epic way, IMO.  And I believe they fully realize that, which is why they had Sam apologize for his bullshit behavior 3 years later.  Unfortunately, Sam should never have to apologize for bad writing.

I don't think either Sam or Dean are holding on to hurt feelings about any of the stuff from their past.  They've both made mistakes, and they've both said some awful things to one another, and they've come through the other side, still intact.  I think they fully realize just how important they are to each other at this point.  I realize they are fictional characters, but this is how I see them now.  I think it's we the fans who can't seem to let go of some of this shit, not Sam and Dean.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I agree about absolutes - nobody is perfect - including Sam and Dean. However, I agree with catrox, that the comparison of Amy Pond and Benny is a poor one. Amy had killed several people (however bad they were) and Benny had not killed any humans. But I believe that Sam immediately distrusted/disliked Benny and was not open to other ideas/feelings about him.

Dean didn't know Amelia at all. What Dean was pissed at was that Sam didn't look for him, gave up hunting, ditched his phones, didn't try to find out what happened to Kevin, and ran off to a life with a "girl". He finds all of this out as soon as he returns to our world after fighting for his life for one solid year! I'd be pissed too. I thought that Dean had every right to be angry with Sam, and yes, disappointed in him. JMO.

In the context about which I made the comparison between Amy Pond and Benny I think it fits.  That is, @Myrelle wanted Sam to refrain disdaining/disliking people (monsters?) whom Dean might choose to love/respect/depend upon.  My point was: that should go both ways.  And if Sam is to be expected from refraining showing his disdain for Dean's 'friends', then likewise Dean should refrain from showing disdain for people, or monsters, whom Sam might choose to love/respect/depend upon.  

If I recall, Amy killed to save her son - and she was finished.  Not going to kill any more.  Benny hadn't killed - yet.  This time back on earth. Although he was sorely tempted, and imo, it was only a matter of time.  He had killed in his previous "life" as a vampire - and not to save his child - so he wasn't quite the innocent either.  In fact, didn't he kill Martin this time to save his daughter?  So, really, I don't see much difference there.  

You are correct.  Dean did not know Amelia at all - and yet he spoke of someone Sam loved with disdain.  I know why Dean was angry with Sam.  I agree that from Dean's pov, he had a right to be angry with Sam, especially with regard to Kevin.  Heck, *I* was angry with Sam!  What Dean did not have was a right to sneeringly refer to her the way that he did.  

Edited February 16, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
more comparison

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Cas was acting weird but Cas had proven himself to Dean over the years and he rejected Heaven for Dean and to help stop the apocalypse.  That's a pretty big sacrifice.  Cas took on Sam's broken brain to make up for having broken it in the first place.  Cas makes mistakes but he tries to make up for them after the fact.  Dean told Cas he was family just a few episodes before Metatron put his plan into place.

But Sam's beef was not with things that Cas did, Sam's beef was with Dean trusting Cas.

I agree with everything you say here. I'm not denying what Castiel has done for Dean at all. I'm not even saying that Sam was entirely right to question trusting Castiel exactly - although I make a distinction myself between being loyal - which Castiel definitely is - and being trustworthy - because Castiel doesn't always make the right choices. Even Dean on a few occasions has called Castiel "a child," questioning Cas' thought processes and decisions, so this isn't even anything new.

I'm trying to look at this from Sam's point of view. First I'm not even sure that Sam was entirely in his right mind at that moment. Who knows how screwed up his insides - including maybe even his brain - is. When Gadreel took him over and other supernatural beings commented on Sam's condition in season 9, it didn't exactly sound rosy. I think even Castiel said something about it in season 8 some time. So I can at least assume Sam's under a bit of stress if nothing else. He did seem a bit emotionally charged up to me even before he went in the church to deal with Crowley (which that likely didn't help either, considering that Sam hates Crowley and Crowley killed Sarah - which Sam blamed himself for). Now add on top of that that two of the last things Sam heard Dean say and/or discuss with him were 1) all of Sam's worst hits that Sam hoped Dean had forgiven him for, but maybe hadn't, considering how quickly and easily Dean rattled them off, and in Sam's already emotional state, and later hours and hours to ruminate on it while he waited with Crowley I can see how that would build up inside Sam, and 2) hearing Dean saying (paraphrase) "if anyone needs a chaperone, it's Sam" ... to Castiel. I can see Sam mulling over why he was singled out in the current scenario when Castiel was presently in just as much need of watching... and that might've lead to a little bit of Cas resentment at that moment.

So yes, Sam got over-emotional. He got needy. I call exception for being physically and mentally broken down and maybe being close to dying from the trials and wanting to hear Dean say that he loves him and maybe even trusts him as much as everyone else in his life before he might die. Sam wants to hear that he did good. Selfish - yup, but I give Sam leeway for being near death and maybe wanting to hear that before he goes, even if it isn't true, or even if he doesn't deserve or think he deserves it. Like an "It's going to be okay," even when everyone knows it isn't, but the delusion is comforting.

Sam had a moment of jealous weakness as he was emotionally frayed and probably dying. He's human. I think I'll give him a pass.

@ILoveReading:

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Just changing the order of the pronouns' would have changed the entire context of that speech.   "What happens the next time I give you reason not to trust me."  That IMO is Sam taking responsibility for losing Dean's trust.  "What happens the next time you decide I can't be trusted" comes across as Dean being the problem for him not trusting Sam, not Sam's actions.

But if the writers phrased the question like that, then Dean's answer would've been... either different or entirely weird. Because the real answer should've been "Um, I won't trust you?" or "what do you want me to say, Sam?" And then if Dean still said he would put Sam ahead of everyone else, that would be weird.

And as I said, Sam was looking for a little comfort at that point in my opinion. He'd already confessed that he feels like a complete screw up and that he'd let Dean down, so maybe he was grabbing at the easy thing to get any kind of positive reinforcement. Sam was likely harboring some resentment for Castiel and Benny in that moment, too, considering all of the stuff I mentioned above that Sam had a chance to let fester in his adled brain over the last 8 hours.

Dean was the one who took it to 11 with the "never put anyone before you" statement. He kinda over-reached a bit, but then again, he wanted to convince Sam to stop the trials and not die, so exception for Dean extenuating circumstances as well.

And I'm reasonably sure no one was going to hold anyone to task for anything said that day... as in Sam's not going to be complaining to Dean any time in the future "but Dean, you promised me you'd put me ahead of everyone else."

[rue721]

Another factor in that S8 church scene was Crowley. He'd just had that big breakdown about how he wanted to be loved. Then Dean comes in and tells Sam that he's loved, and Sam says OK, he won't die then.

I think that Crowley's confession to Sam was meant to set up Dean "saving" Sam with his love for him.

But IMO it didn't really work because Sam has always been loved, so it's not some big revelation for Dean to say, again, that he loves him. When didn't Dean love him? When did anyone doubt that Dean loved him? So it was like, "why is THIS making Sam change his mind?"

And also, I don't know how we were supposed to feel about the gates of hell staying open. I think we were supposed to understand that it was probably better for them to stay open, based on what happened when Heaven's were closed...but it was confusing, so it made Sam's decision not to go through with closing them confusing, too. That kind of put a lingering "wtf" feeling over that whole situation IMO.

In any case, I did like Sam and Crowley's interactions in the church -- that was the highlight of the end of the season for me. Plus, the church itself and the falling angels looked really cool, too.

[trxr4kids]

8 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

The dialog could have been worded a little clearer.

Truer words..........This should be the show tagline.

[Myrelle]

14 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Wait what? I don't get what you're saying here. The arc was about Sam trusting Dean - again.* That was my point. Dean says Benny is good, and Sam should trust him... voila Benny is good.

 

14 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

*(We already had that whole arc in season 5 - Sam learning that he should've trusted Dean to start with rather than his own instincts, because Ruby was bad and Sam's need to be independent and feel strong on his own lead him to trust Ruby and therefore lead to his ultimate ruin).

But Sam did not trust Dean's word-not until Benny sacrificed his life for Sam and then only extremely grudgingly-and by the end of the season the writing for Sam has him again trying to make Dean feel bad for trusting someone other than Sam-a vampire, yes, but still a "good" monster who'd saved Sam's brother's life AND formed a bond with Dean(I think that bond was what rankled Sam more than anything else. Same with the bond with Cas); but my point was not that I thought that the arc was going to be about Dean being proven right about Benny being good, my point was that I thought that this arc, in the end, was going to be more about Sam learning to trust in Dean's judgment more; but what happened in the end(Sacrifice) was that the arc turned out to once again be about Sam feeling hurt because in his mind Dean doesn't trust Sam enough in general and regardless of whether Sam's actions warrant Dean's trust, in Dean's mind. Dean's feelings were invalidated in the end again, just as they were at the end of S5 without Dean ever having been allowed to really process or deal with his own hurt, loss, and pain again.

And while there are episodes that I, too, hate they still happened and so what happens in them becomes a part of the on-going characterizations, especially if they happen more than once. Sam has run from the hunting life more than once from Day One. In season 8, running from that life included not even trying to look for his brother when his brother disappeared thus forcing Dean to find his own way back from Purgatory. That is canon. And to make matters worse he treated the being that helped his brother as if he was something that he'd scrape off the bottom of his shoe even when it was proven to him that that being was not evil and was in fact trying to do what Sam had upheld as the right thing to do, supposedly for any monster, way back in S2 and that we'd seen him do for and encourage in other monsters since then; and still to this day see him do at times. It reached a point where Sam had to admit that Benny was trustworthy, but still that wasn't enough for Sam. I still say that it was that brother bond that was forged between Dean and Benny in Purgatory that didn't sit well with Sam. And that wasn't on Dean or Benny. That was on Sam. He didn't have his brother's back so his brother had to find someone else who could and would be that shield for him; and sin of all sins, Dean was not only grateful to that being for doing that, but he also came to love him as a brother-in-arms.

IMO, If Sam wanted to be trusted by Dean in a similar manner to how Dean trusted Benny and Cas during that arc, then action was needed from and by Sam to achieve that end-not words intended to make Dean feel guilty over doing something(OR forming a bond with someone else) that he had no reason whatsoever to feel guilty over. THIS is what it looked liked this arc was going to encompass to me-until Torn and Frayed happened and Trial and Error and Sacrifice. It was in this way that the second half of 8, simply became a mirror of five wherein Sam learning to trust Dean was only secondary to the necessity of Dean needing to learn to trust Sam-no matter what had happened between them previously and no matter what had been resolved between them previously(Sam and Amelia and Sam's on-again desire for a normal life) and what hadn't been resolved(Dean's hurt, anger, and pain over being abandoned again and the loss of a friend who was like a brother to Dean). In S5, it was pretty much the same by the time 5.22 happened. I'll never forget Kripke stating after that one that Dean need to learn to love and trust Sam more and that he needed to see that Sam drinking the demon blood was a "cool" way to stop the Apocalypse. Ugh.

At least we now(for the moment) have a Sam who has seemingly accepted the hunting life as his destiny. That, IMO, was the first action that Sam had to take to earn the type of trust from Dean that he apparently so desires. Both feet in. The second is that he has to honor the words that he stated to Dean in Trial and Error as the original reason that he should be the one to do those trials. He needs to never give up on living and to fight tooth and nail for it because in spite of Sam's words to the contrary in that episode, that IS what I've always seen Dean as trying to do for both of them(and I suspect that he's extended that to Mary and Cas at this point also) and THAT more than anything would earn him Dean's trust-if that is indeed what he's always wanted more than anything, that is-not Sam's death(or his own, for that matter) for the cause-not until all of their options, any or all of them, have run out anyway.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm trying to look at this from Sam's point of view. First I'm not even sure that Sam was entirely in his right mind at that moment. Who knows how screwed up his insides - including maybe even his brain - is. When Gadreel took him over and other supernatural beings commented on Sam's condition in season 9, it didn't exactly sound rosy. I think even Castiel said something about it in season 8 some time. So I can at least assume Sam's under a bit of stress if nothing else. He did seem a bit emotionally charged up to me even before he went in the church to deal with Crowley (which that likely didn't help either, considering that Sam hates Crowley and Crowley killed Sarah - which Sam blamed himself for). Now add on top of that that two of the last things Sam heard Dean say and/or discuss with him were 1) all of Sam's worst hits that Sam hoped Dean had forgiven him for, but maybe hadn't, considering how quickly and easily Dean rattled them off, and in Sam's already emotional state, and later hours and hours to ruminate on it while he waited with Crowley I can see how that would build up inside Sam, and 2) hearing Dean saying (paraphrase) "if anyone needs a chaperone, it's Sam" ... to Castiel. I can see Sam mulling over why he was singled out in the current scenario when Castiel was presently in just as much need of watching... and that might've lead to a little bit of Cas resentment at that moment.

 

Sam didn't seem particularly angry with Cas once Cas showed up again. He  seemed to actually be defending Cas to Dean when Dean iwas  highly skeptical about Cas return. Sam seemed to be supportive of Cas trying to hunt with them in Hunter Heroici when Dean was less so. . Sam did not seem to have any grudge towards Cas. So why would Sam bring Cas into the fight about Dean and Benny when Sam held no ill will towards Cas that I can recall? All that told me is that Sam didnt really forgive Cas or he's bitter that Dean actually cares about someone other than Sam

[Katy M]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have to say if Sam had kept his issues to Benny, I would have understood the scene better but when he through in Cas, who was Dean's best friend as someone Dean shouldn't trust over Sam...I have to say I threw my hands up on the whole episode. It made no sense for Sam to throw Cas under the bus and it really undermined his argument about trust, IMO. 

There are people in the world who feel that they need to pad their arguments.  One or two examples is never enough.

[Myrelle]

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think either Sam or Dean are holding on to hurt feelings about any of the stuff from their past.  They've both made mistakes, and they've both said some awful things to one another, and they've come through the other side, still intact.  I think they fully realize just how important they are to each other at this point.  I realize they are fictional characters, but this is how I see them now.  I think it's we the fans who can't seem to let go of some of this shit, not Sam and Dean.

We are all also only human. As for the brothers being intact, I'm not so sure about that. Physically speaking, yes. Psychologically and mentally?...not so much... ;-)

[ILoveReading]

11 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

@ILoveReading:

But if the writers phrased the question like that, then Dean's answer would've been... either different or entirely weird. Because the real answer should've been "Um, I won't trust you?" or "what do you want me to say, Sam?" And then if Dean still said he would put Sam ahead of everyone else, that would be weird.

And as I said, Sam was looking for a little comfort at that point in my opinion. He'd already confessed that he feels like a complete screw up and that he'd let Dean down, so maybe he was grabbing at the easy thing to get any kind of positive reinforcement. Sam was likely harboring some resentment for Castiel and Benny in that moment, too, considering all of the stuff I mentioned above that Sam had a chance to let fester in his adled brain over the last 8 hours.

Dean was the one who took it to 11 with the "never put anyone before you" statement. He kinda over-reached a bit, but then again, he wanted to convince Sam to stop the trials and not die, so exception for Dean extenuating circumstances as well.

And I'm reasonably sure no one was going to hold anyone to task for anything said that day... as in Sam's not going to be complaining to Dean any time in the future "but Dean, you promised me you'd put me ahead of everyone else."

Given the fact that its a TV show, Dean's response wasn't set in stone.  The writers could have adapted it.  As for comfort, Dean spent the entire time Sam was doing the trials trying to be there for him.  He offered Sam support many times, tried to look out for him, and offered to help.   Even defending and talking Sam up to strangers.  The more Dean fussed over him the more Sam saw it as Dean  babying him,

Paraphrasing- "You can barely do it with me.  You think I need a chaperone."  We even had Sam declaring he had to do everything solo and then preceded to get help from multiple people.  The only person he actively rejected was Dean.  If Sam was doing the trials to prove to Dean that he could, doesn't that make his big speech in Trial and Error emotional manipulation because as soon as the credits rolled on that episode every word Sam said went out the window.  Dean's apparently suicidal tendencies went it as it was never mentioned again, or before.  It feels like it was pulled out of the thin air to justify Sam doing the trials.

TBH, at this point I have no idea what Sam wants from Dean.  As I mentioned before, How does he define trust?  Because I often find that what Sam wants in permission and unconditional acceptable.  I find that many times when Dean doesn't agree, Sam plays the "you don't trust me card' even if lack of trust is warranted.

Why is Dean's trust so important to Sam when often times we see Sam being so dismissive of Dean's opinions.  He didn't listen about Ruby, he refused to listen about Benny.  Dean had several logical arguments as to why Sam's visions couldn't be from God and shouldn't go into the cage, but Sam did exactly what he wanted anyway.   I've found this has been since season 1.  Sam tends to do exactly what he wants regardless of Dean's opinion.

It's also hard to buy that Dean's opinion means to much to Sam when they follow it up with an episode like 9,01.  Every thing we saw in that episode was pure unadulterated 100% Sam.  He seemed to have a pretty low opinion of Dean,  giving himself full credit for saving the world and calling Dean a half-wit who didn't do jack. 

Then Sam spent and entire season ticked off that he didn''t get to die.  Never once did the fact that he'd be leaving Dean behind cross him mind.  Its a mixed message that the show sends.   Sam wants Dean's trust so much he's willing to die for it but Sam doesn't really think all that much of Dean in the first place.  What am I supposed to take away from this?

Edited February 16, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

TBH, at this point I have no idea what Sam wants

I'm pretty sure Dean said this exact thing in one of these latter season episodes.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

There are people in the world who feel that they need to pad their arguments.  One or two examples is never enough.

It seemed more   kitchen sinking versus padding with reasonably apt examples. Sam had a beef with Dean over Benny. Cas was never a part of that until that speech. So weird.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It seemed more   kitchen sinking versus padding with reasonably apt examples.

That's exactly what I meant.  I actually have a perfect real world example, I just don't want to share it here.  I'll try to see if I can think of another one.

[rue721]

Side note: I am becoming very bitter about this 8 o'clock airtime. l can never get home in time to watch the show in real time anymore! And I had a whole fantastic "grilled cheese for dinner while watching the new Supernatural" routine going on before, too. Bah.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Side note: I am becoming very bitter about this 8 o'clock airtime. l can never get home in time to watch the show in real time anymore! And I had a whole fantastic "grilled cheese for dinner while watching the new Supernatural" routine going on before, too. Bah.

I don't like Thursday night because I don't watch live.  I stream it the next day - which is Friday.  Which is usually not a good day for me to watch, so then I have to wait another day.  Grr!

[Aeryn13]

Over in the spoiler thread we got into a topic that is a source for bitterness for me so I`m taking my answer here. 

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When characters don't find Dean attractive, it's comical because it subverts the expected. 

Maybe a couple of years back but in recent Season this scene is the norm and last week was the aberration. The diss has become the status quo on the show.  

What is it that you are suggesting about TPTB here?

Basically, I do think they are being incredibly petty. I don`t need every female (or male) character to fawn over Dean but in recent years it has been nothing else but him striking out, getting comments about being too old, his "dad bod"  and similar little digs. If I didn`t see how the character looks, I would get the impression he IS an ugly, old troll.  It has become ridiculously over the top for me.

Last week actually was infinitely refreshing for me in that wonders never cease, Dean managed to attract a woman. Which I attributed wholly to the new writer Meredith Glynn. She appears to like both the character and the actor. 

[Demented Daisy]

19 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Basically, I do think they are being incredibly petty.

Who's being petty?  The writers, the producers, the directors, the actors, who?

[Myrelle]

It's been a source of bitterness for me for years when the writers choose to write Dean as "less" in any way, strictly and only to prop another character. I skip episodes/scenes(If I'm forewarned as in a preview) where the writers do that now. I'm done with it. It's unnecessary and could even be seen as an insult to the other actor in that, what?-they don't think that the other actor can carry or pull off the scene on his own merit w/o that kind of crap writing. It's mediocre writing at best and pathetic at worst, IMO. And not funny or a joke at all to some of us anymore or at this point. It reminds me of that line from Goodfellas...

 

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Funny how? Like funny 'ha ha' or funny strange?

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Basically, I do think they are being incredibly petty. I don`t need every female (or male) character to fawn over Dean but in recent years it has been nothing else but him striking out, getting comments about being too old, his "dad bod"  and similar little digs. If I didn`t see how the character looks, I would get the impression he IS an ugly, old troll.  It has become ridiculously over the top for me

The only two people I recall calling Dean old are krissy and Claire, both teenagers.  Yes, to some teenagers, people in their 30s are incredibly old, IIRC, I felt the same way.  And, the dad bod comment I remember was when he was talking to Sam.  I don't even remember the episode, but if brothers can't razz each other about stuff like that, I don't know what we've come to.  Other than that, I can't really recall women shooting him down.

[Aeryn13]

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Who's being petty?  The writers, the producers, the directors, the actors, who?

The writers. In general I have a low opinion of the current writing team and the one that came before that. Luckily they a few really bad ones left between Seasons but there is still Dabb, the Nepotism Duo and now Perez whose writing I don`t care for. Equally, Berens has become a disappointment as well.

That pettiness is but one of their usual tropes that sours me on their episodes. 

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And, the dad bod comment I remember was when he was talking to Sam.  I don't even remember the episode, but if brothers can't razz each other about stuff like that, I don't know what we've come to.  

Dean was telling Sam what a woman had said to him, namely that he had a "dad bod". 

In the beginning of the show it seems like every second episode had a reference to "Dean is dumb". By villains, allies, family, everyone. Nowadays, they still do those but not so frequent anymore. Instead they seem to do digs at his looks more. I care for neither. 

And for me it has become so pronounced that I genuinely was surprised to see the waitress from last week apparently finding him attractive enough for a hook-up. Had this episode been penned by any other writer on the team, I`m sure she would have been like "urgh, not you, old man".  

[sarthaz]

Over in the Magnificent Seven thread, I posted my irritation that our beloved show so frequently presents black people (particularly males) as evil, stupid, or assholes.  Not fair to that thread to argue it there, so I'm bringing it here.  Even the black characters we love, like Rufus, are total assholes.  Gordon and Henrickson are single-minded obsessive dicks.  Isaac and Tamara are terrible hunters ... and assholes.  Jake starts out cool but ultimately embraces being evil. Uriel?  Both Raphaels?  Even strong, kinda lovable characters, like Alpha Vamp or Guy are straight up Evil with a capital E.

There are some exceptions, like Dean's one-true-love and Missouri Moseley from way back in Season 1 (both women).  And Sarge from Croatoan seems like a pretty good guy.  But it's rare when a black guy shows up who doesn't turn out to be evil or just a spectacular dick.

[Aeryn13]

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Missouri Moseley from way back in Season 1

I consider her a big asshole, certainly more than Rufus and Henrikson. Also more than Gordon if I`m honest. It`s a gross injustice that those characters had to canonically die and she didn`t.

But take Rufus for example, was he any more of an asshole than Bobby? Or Bobby any less than him? I don`t think so. They both played that gruff older man shtick. And John Winchester was presented as a huge jerk quite often, more than both of the those men.  

Edited February 16, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Demented Daisy]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean was telling Sam what a woman had said to him, namely that he had a "dad bod". 

Sorry, no.  This is the exchange in question:

Quote

Dean: Hey, any luck?
Sam: No. You?
Dean: No. Hey, what's a 'dad bod?'

Is the implication that she rejected him because he did have a "dad bod" or because he didn't?  As I pointed out at the time the episode aired, having a dad bod was considered sexy.

No, really.  Do a Google search for "dad bod sexy".  It's the equivalent of liking "curvy" girls.

So, it's entirely possible that the woman rejected him because he didn't have one.  Or the writers completely misunderstood the concept.

[Aeryn13]

I think the implication was that he struck out because he had one. Posibly with the girl wanting to be nice and telling him he wasn`t so bad for an old man. But that he really was too old. I think they even lampshaded it in the episode where the senior citizen was attracted to him, like see, he still looks young-ish - to people over the age of 65. 

And it was really one instance. For the last three years or so, I usually roll my eyes at such a comment or diss for a third of the Season. If it was just one joke in two years, it would fly by. But to me, it`s become really, really frequent.  

[companionenvy]

Hmm... I can't say I've noticed black men being more villainous than other one-off or recurring characters, but I haven't been keeping track, either. Certainly, on a show that has had very few significant black characters, I can see where depictions that might not be so fraught in the case of white hunters become more significant, as villainous white characters are counterbalanced by the fact that all of our heroes are white, too. I don't think Henrickson is a dick, though. He doesn't know about the supernatural, hence to him Sam and Dean are serial-killing monsters. In that context, his behavior makes perfect sense, and is even noble. He may enjoy gloating a bit, but so does Dean, sometimes. Once he learns about the supernatural world in "Jus in Bello," he adapts pretty quickly. It does bother me that he then gets killed off right away, as I think he would have been a great character to bring back for the occasional appearance (in which he wasn't a pissed off ghost). I also don't think Isaac and Tamara were incompetent or more assholish than other hunters. They screwed up in that particular case, but they'd apparently been successful hunters for years.

What always did bug me a bit was making Rufus's Judaism into a joke. I'm pretty active in Jewish communities, and have encountered a number of black Jews over the years. In the U.S, the black Jews I've known have all been adoptees, converts, or biracial people with one Jewish parent. In Israel, there is actually a substantial community of Jews of Ethiopian origin. So it bugged that Rufus being both black and Jewish was used as a source of comedy, especially as Jews of color, because they are a relatively small minority, do often have to struggle with the assumption by others that they aren't Jewish. 

I did find Rufus's creative reading of Sabbath law pretty amusing, though, and was gratified that they buried him rather than burning his body, which is a no-no for Jews. 

[catrox14]

There have always been jokes about Dean being shot down, jokes about a girl Dean finds attractive who finds Sam, or Cas more  attractive instead. And those don't really bother me at all. There are always Dean is "old" jokes as soon as Dean hit 35  It's just a dumb trope.

I think what bugs me is the context of the jokes have changed. Dean's age and relative desirability are now being lumped together like the dad bod thing.  So whether Dean was found less desirable for having or NOT having a dad bod is an age joke. Also,  the timing of that dad bod joke came when Dean was fighting against Amara's control over him. Dean feels weakened and vulnerable already so sure let's pile on with some jokes about his fading desirability. And NO, God's sister dub-conning Dean does not make up for it. YMMV

[sarthaz]

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I consider her a big asshole, certainly more than Rufus and Henrikson. Also more than Gordon if I`m honest. It`s a gross injustice that those characters had to canonically die and she didn`t.

But take Rufus for example, was he any more of an asshole than Bobby? Or Bobby any less than him? I don`t think so. They both played that gruff older man shtick. And John Winchester was presented as a huge jerk quite often, more than both of the those men.  

I see your point on Missouri.  As for Bobby, yeah, he's totally the White Rufus, but there are hundreds of white characters on the show and barely a dozen or so black ones.

[bearcatfan]

Agree that some teenagers find people in their 30s old. In fact, when the mother of my best friend turned 38, her next door neighbor who was in her 20s told her that she was old. Clearly, some people have a warped sense of age. Also, some people have no tact. I can't imagine ever telling someone that they were old, even if they are in their 80s!

Edited February 16, 2017 by bearcatfan
ever and every are different words with different meanings

[sarthaz]

46 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Hmm... I can't say I've noticed black men being more villainous than other one-off or recurring characters, but I haven't been keeping track, either. Certainly, on a show that has had very few significant black characters, I can see where depictions that might not be so fraught in the case of white hunters become more significant, as villainous white characters are counterbalanced by the fact that all of our heroes are white, too. I don't think Henrickson is a dick, though. He doesn't know about the supernatural, hence to him Sam and Dean are serial-killing monsters. In that context, his behavior makes perfect sense, and is even noble. He may enjoy gloating a bit, but so does Dean, sometimes. Once he learns about the supernatural world in "Jus in Bello," he adapts pretty quickly. It does bother me that he then gets killed off right away, as I think he would have been a great character to bring back for the occasional appearance (in which he wasn't a pissed off ghost). I also don't think Isaac and Tamara were incompetent or more assholish than other hunters. They screwed up in that particular case, but they'd apparently been successful hunters for years.

 

Henrickson's a total dick.  Sure, he gets his hero turn in the second half of Jus in Bello, and he's one of my all-time favorite characters, but he's a walking Fed stereotype when he shows up in Nightshifter and has no ability to recognize nuance.  Robarts tries to tell him something's different about this situation, but Henrickson doesn't want to hear any of it.  When he returns in Folsom, again he lacks any intuition, completely unable to see the strangeness of these criminal masterminds -- "monsters" as he calls them -- getting tripped up by a motion detector.  White Lady public defender pieces it together, though, and by the end of the episode Henrickson is intimidating Deacon and Daniels without any sense of what's going on.  Cuz he's a dick.  No wonder he has all those ex-wives. :)

As for Isaac and Tamara, we're told that they're good hunters, but their actions demonstrate otherwise.  They are filled with rage and make terrible decisions.  Maybe that's in theme with the Seven Deadly Sins, but taken in toto with all the other black characters, it just seems par for the course.  I will concede that they're probably not more assholish than other hunters, though. :)

Edited February 16, 2017 by sarthaz

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Also, some people have no tact. I can't imagine ever telling someone that they were old, even if they are in their 80s!

Well, I used to ask my dad what it was like to go to school with Moses...

41 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And it was really one instance. For the last three years or so, I usually roll my eyes at such a comment or diss for a third of the Season. If it was just one joke in two years, it would fly by. But to me, it`s become really, really frequent. 

Do you have any statistics to back that up?  Not trying to be snarky or anything, it's just the math nerd/engineer in me coming out!  For example, based on @catrox14's estimate that there was one a season, that makes 1 joke per 22 eps.  That's a 4.55% frequency.  But that's not really accurate, because each joke probably only lasts one minute.  (Really, probably less than that.) But I'll even be generous and give it two minutes.  Each episode being 40 minutes (there abouts) that's 2 minutes per 880 minutes of air time.  Or a 0.22% frequency.  

[And yes!  I can entertain myself all day like this!]

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 For example, based on @catrox14's estimate that there was one a season, that makes 1 joke per 22 eps.  That's a 4.55% frequency.  But that's not really accurate, because each joke probably only lasts one minute.  (R

I don't think you're being serious but FTR my point was that there have been AT LEAST one joke about Dean's relative desirability per season. But in reality I think it's more than that.  And it also might depend on how a person's perceives the remarks about Dean's relative desirability as HA HA funny jokes, or jabs at Dean, or straight up as an insult. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Do you have any statistics to back that up? 

Sorry, nope. That might seem like a big cop-out but it would requite rewatching or at least revisiting episodes and I generally don`t like most of them anymore. So I just can`t do it.

Also, this is likely a perception thing. I`m quite sensitive to stuff like this, jokes at Dean`s (or Jensen`s) expense that I just find mean-spirited and petty. So every little one of those stands out to me. I`m sure Sam-fans are more sensitive to disses on Sam, too, when I probably wouldn`t notice some of them.

The CW (and the old WB) might have been dismissively refered to as the "pretty young people" network but it wasn`t without truth. I just didn`t think it automatically meant, as most commenters did, that that translated to talentless but pretty teenagers in asinine teen melodrama. The actors were just young and extremely good-looking. Didn`t mean they were bad actors in bad source material.

Now SPN getting up there in age means the cast is a bit older than network average. But other shows feature older actors and they are still attractive and their respective shows never try to bullshit anything else. Jensen isn`t the oldest on SPN or looks significantly older than his castmates so I don`t get those "jokes" focused on him so much. 

Back in Dark Angel times, there were a lot of pretty boy jokes about Jensen`s Alec. Almost every episode someone made a snarky comment on it. I feel like SPN now tries to go in another direction and pretends like somehow offscreen Jensen turned from Marlon Brando a la Mutiny on the Bounty to Marlon Brando a la Godfather. Like, come on. Nothing like that happened, writers. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Aeryn13

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think you're being serious but FTR my point was that there have been AT LEAST one joke about Dean's relative desirability per season. But in reality I think it's more than that.  And it also might depend on how a person's perceives the remarks about Dean's relative desirability as HA HA funny jokes, or jabs at Dean, or straight up as an insult. 

Oh, I'm always serious about math!  :)  No really.  Numbers don't lie.  Fwiw, I think sometimes it helps to look at things from a different perspective and putting the frequency of jokes about Dean's desirability into hard numbers might shed new light on what might be perceived to be a real problem when perhaps it's not really because the frequency isn't as bad as thought.*  Of course, as you noted, this does not mean people like it any more.  

*or conversely is worse than thought.  Quick exampl:, a friend of mine was talking about her ex-husband and a settlement he recently got from a former employer, while expecting her to shoulder the larger portion of their children's college education.  When I put into context for her how much his settlement broke down to on a monthly basis (which was double what she and I make) she was righteously angry, imo.  ymmv.

[bearcatfan]

18 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, I used to ask my dad what it was like to go to school with Moses...

Those jokes are allowed with family!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

20 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Those jokes are allowed with family!

Whew!

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh, I'm always serious about math!  :)  No really.  Numbers don't lie.  Fwiw, I think sometimes it helps to look at things from a different perspective and putting the frequency of jokes about Dean's desirability into hard numbers might shed new light on what might be perceived to be a real problem when perhaps it's not really because the frequency isn't as bad as thought.*  Of course, as you noted, this does not mean people like it any more.

I guess to me numbers like that would lack context. Numbers always need context IMO.  So yes, I mentioned how I was bothered by the dad-bod joke because it was leveled when Dean was already struggling with being vulnerable.  I suppose it's more a matter of comedy is hard and it's all about the timing.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

Over in the Magnificent Seven thread, I posted my irritation that our beloved show so frequently presents black people (particularly males) as evil, stupid, or assholes.  Not fair to that thread to argue it there, so I'm bringing it here.  Even the black characters we love, like Rufus, are total assholes.  Gordon and Henrickson are single-minded obsessive dicks.  Isaac and Tamara are terrible hunters ... and assholes.  Jake starts out cool but ultimately embraces being evil. Uriel?  Both Raphaels?  Even strong, kinda lovable characters, like Alpha Vamp or Guy are straight up Evil with a capital E.

There are some exceptions, like Dean's one-true-love and Missouri Moseley from way back in Season 1 (both women).  And Sarge from Croatoan seems like a pretty good guy.  But it's rare when a black guy shows up who doesn't turn out to be evil or just a spectacular dick.

I'm not sure I agree with this, except to point out that pretty much *everyone* on the show (including the heroes) have been shown as stupid or assholes (though not necessarily evil), depending on the circumstances.  In fact, the only recurring characters I can think of who aren't/haven't been evil, stupid or assholes on a regular basis are Jody, Ellen and maybe Donna (though she does have her stupid side).  But there are still many people who have accused the show of misogyny (as well as homophobia.)  I think if someone is sensitized to expecting an insult, they'll find it, even if it's not intended.  

Personally, I find a stereotypical hero much more offensive than a well-written, meaty role as an asshole.

47 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Henrickson's a total dick.  Sure, he gets his hero turn in the second half of Jus in Bello, and he's one of my all-time favorite characters, but he's a walking Fed stereotype when he shows up in Nightshifter and has no ability to recognize nuance.  Robarts tries to tell him something's different about this situation, but Henrickson doesn't want to hear any of it.  When he returns in Folsom, again he lacks any intuition, completely unable to see the strangeness of these criminal masterminds -- "monsters" as he calls them -- getting tripped up by a motion detector.  White Lady public defender pieces it together, though, and by the end of the episode Henrickson is intimidating Deacon and Daniels without any sense of what's going on.  Cuz he's a dick.  No wonder he has all those ex-wives. :)

As for Isaac and Tamara, we're told that they're good hunters, but their actions demonstrate otherwise.  I will concede that they're probably not more assholish than other hunters, though. :)

 I think Henrickson, Rufus and even Gordon were fascinating characters, not stereotyped evil or even dicks (though they could act that way at times).  The fact that they started out strictly stereotyped but changed as we got to know them better is what makes them "real".  Henrickson started out considering the *boys* as stereotypical criminals and so didn't bother to look beyond that until he was forced to--just like we didn't see the other side of him until we were forced to.  I consider that very good character development, because it made sense instead of one minute evil, the next, oh, friends.  With Gordon it was actually the opposite--he sounded logical in the beginning, and it wasn't till we got to know him better we saw the buckets of crazy behind.  Also well-written and well-acted.   Even Jake was a reluctant evil, forced to act against his will to save his family.  It wasn't till he gave in to the Dark Side that he became fully evil.  I think that's a lot different from some mindless caricature badguy.  

About one-shot characters, aside from the Sarge in Croatoan, there were quite a few black males with roles as doctors, sheriffs, and sympathetic victims (as in Crossroad Blues--maybe they made stupid decisions, but weren't evil or dicks.)   Isaac and Tamara weren't shown to be terrible hunters, except that one huge mistake of walking in to the bar full of Deadly Sins--which, as I recall, was also Dean's plan before Bobby and Sam stopped him.  And frankly, I thought Cassie and Missouri were much more caricaturish than any of the others, (though Cassie's friends--the editor, her father's partner, and even the black man playing chess at the waterfront were solid, non-evil, non-dickish characters.)   (Thinking about it, one of my favorite one-shot black characters was the sheriff who was caught in an angel battle and trying to explain to Dean and Cas what had happened.  I think it was in Free to Be...?)

Bottom line:  I'm not denying or trying to downplay your irritation, just give my perspective that maybe there were more good black guys than you remember, just because they weren't in lead roles.  But that's a whole different battle, I guess.  

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And it was really one instance. For the last three years or so, I usually roll my eyes at such a comment or diss for a third of the Season. If it was just one joke in two years, it would fly by. But to me, it`s become really, really frequent

It's Krissy, Claire and one off-screen exchange.  I honestly can't think of anybody else telling dean he's old.  He got a hook up this ep, and that's been the only hook up for either of them all season.  They've been a little busy with other things.  Amara certainly liked him well enough. I think he had a flirtation with that lady in Beyond the Mat, but maybe I'm wrong, not exactly my fave epi and I've only watched once.  The woman on The Vessel seemed to kind of like him.  He was with that Anne Marie girl in Black.  He was having a nice chat with Tina in About a Boy. 

[bearcatfan]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

It's Krissy, Claire and one off-screen exchange.  I honestly can't think of anybody else telling dean he's old.  He got a hook up this ep, and that's been the only hook up for either of them all season.  They've been a little busy with other things.  Amara certainly liked him well enough. I think he had a flirtation with that lady in Beyond the Mat, but maybe I'm wrong, not exactly my fave epi and I've only watched once.  The woman on The Vessel seemed to kind of like him.  He was with that Anne Marie girl in Black.  He was having a nice chat with Tina in About a Boy. 

Mildred liked Dean too, although I'm sure that some won't count that. Still, Mildred was an attractive woman, though older than Dean.

I didn't particularly like Beyond the Mat either. Not a wrestling fan.

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, Myrelle said:

It was in this way that the second half of 8, simply became a mirror of five wherein Sam learning to trust Dean was only secondary to the necessity of Dean needing to learn to trust Sam-no matter what had happened between them previously and no matter what had been resolved between them previously(Sam and Amelia and Sam's on-again desire for a normal life) and what hadn't been resolved(Dean's hurt, anger, and pain over being abandoned again and the loss of a friend who was like a brother to Dean). In S5, it was pretty much the same by the time 5.22 happened.

8 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Dean's feelings were invalidated in the end again, just as they were at the end of S5 without Dean ever having been allowed to really process or deal with his own hurt, loss, and pain again.

This is a matter of perspective. I really didn't think that Dean's feelings were at all glossed over in season 5. Not only did it take 3/4 of the season before Dean began to trust Sam again - with quite a few digs from Dean at Sam along the way -  Dean's changing his mind was mainly because Sam trusted Dean first. And Dean was still bringing Ruby up in season 8, so I pretty much think we hear Dean's feelings about the issue quite often, but again that's because my perception is different. In contrast, how long was Sam given to process and express how he felt about Dean making the deal and leaving Sam in the same position that John left Dean and Dean was upset about for quite a while? Sam was expected to suck it up and be grateful that Dean brought him back and was going to be leaving him alone with Lilith running around and with the guilt that Dean would be in hell because he saved him (Sam). As I said - our perspectives are different.

8 hours ago, Myrelle said:

And while there are episodes that I, too, hate they still happened and so what happens in them becomes a part of the on-going characterizations, especially if they happen more than once. Sam has run from the hunting life more than once from Day One.

As has Dean. Dean has expressed just as often as Sam that he's done with it and has the desire to give up on hunting starting way back in season 2 with "Croatoan" and "What Is..." Often it is Sam in those episodes convincing Dean that what they do is worth it. By season 5 - in "Swap meat" - it's Sam who is the one saying that the "apple pie, family crap" life sucks and they "didn't miss a thing" by being hunters, and he's pretty emphatic and convincing about it. Dean is the one who questions it: "Or maybe we don't know what we're missing." And by season 7, hunting is how Sam keeps himself together. This is why I personally thought the Amelia stuff in season 8 was a retcon. Sam was on and off about hunting in the beginning for sure and it was a big part of his characterization back then, but by season 5 - and maybe even earlier - Sam was pretty consistently pro-hunting, and it was more often Dean who wavered. But in my opinion, Carver didn't bother to look at what happened in the seasons he was gone and just plunked Sam back into how he was in like early season 3 or more like early season 1. But that's just my opinion on that. Obviously others' opinions differ.

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sam seemed to be supportive of Cas trying to hunt with them in Hunter Heroici when Dean was less so. . Sam did not seem to have any grudge towards Cas. So why would Sam bring Cas into the fight about Dean and Benny when Sam held no ill will towards Cas that I can recall? All that told me is that Sam didnt really forgive Cas or he's bitter that Dean actually cares about someone other than Sam.

Sam definitely supported Cas at first - I remember that - but unless I'm remembering incorrectly, he started getting very suspicious about Castiel acting weirdly - maybe around the time of "Torn and Frayed" - and Sam later became very worried something was off about Castiel. Unfortunately I don't remember what episode it was when Sam started getting worried, and since I don't revisit season 8 very much, I wouldn't know where to look. If I didn't have this memory and this perception, I'd agree with you that it was odd.

As for maybe not forgiving Castiel... who knows under Carver? I used to be able to say that being very forgiving was a consistent Sam character trait that was born out of John's death, I expect - look how quickly he forgave Cas for breaking his wall - but when Carver came along and gave us Sam bringing up Amy again (even though that had all been settled and Sam agreed with Dean) and the "The Purge" speech and the second half of season 9, I couldn't say that any more - another reason I disliked the Carver years.

And as for Sam being bitter about Dean liking someone other than him (Sam), Sam never had a problem before with Dean's friendship with Castiel before, even when Castiel pretty much thought less fondly of Sam and wasn't shy about telling Sam so. If there was any time Sam should've objected to or been jealous of Castiel, it should've been back in season 7. He even wondered if Dean was sure that Cas was dead and maybe should've made sure at the beginning of season 8? Which is why it didn't make any sense to me later on in season 8 that all of a sudden he'd be bitter about it. But Carver's season 8 Sam made very little sense to me anyway. It was like Carver took Sam's good traits - like his forgiveness, hope for Dean to be happy, and wanting to help others - and threw them out the window and then ramped up Sam's bad traits to 11.

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But to me, it`s become really, really frequent. 

Dean gets enough attention both ways from what I see. He had a hickey in the season 11 Valentine's Day episode and Piper in "Baby" was all "well, hello, who are you?" flirty when Dean came into the car even though she'd just been messing around with Sam.

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Why is Dean's trust so important to Sam when often times we see Sam being so dismissive of Dean's opinions.  He didn't listen about Ruby, he refused to listen about Benny.  Dean had several logical arguments as to why Sam's visions couldn't be from God and shouldn't go into the cage, but Sam did exactly what he wanted anyway.   I've found this has been since season 1.  Sam tends to do exactly what he wants regardless of Dean's opinion.

I disagree. It wasn't just Dean he wasn't listening to in season 4 - it was also the crappy, shady angels. As for Benny -- he was a vampire. In any normal circumstance, Benny would've turned out to be evil or fallen off the wagon in the end, just like Lenore did. I didn't find Dean's arguments about Sam's visions all that convincing myself - he should've argued that wouldn't visions from  the cage, more likely be coming from the cage? That might've been convincing. Not one okay argument and a whole bunch of "because I said so." And very often Sam does value Dean's opinions. It's why he asks Dean what the plan is on hunts and then does exactly what Dean suggests. Sam wouldn't do that, in my opinion, if he thought Dean wasn't good at what he does or if he thought Dean was an idiot. That argument never flew for me. Why would one willingly follow someone they thought wasn't worthy of being a leader?

And how is Sam doing what he wants anyway any different than Dean? Dean does the same thing, also usually regardless of Sam's opinion. The deal, running off to say "yes" to Michael, Gadreel, the mark of Cain, killing Amy. And with Dean, for many of those, he flat out still insists that he was right to do it even if it goes horribly wrong.

So for me, I'd say that they are fairly even on that front.

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean's apparently suicidal tendencies went it as it was never mentioned again, or before.  It feels like it was pulled out of the thin air to justify Sam doing the trials.

Actually it wasn't pulled out of thin air, in my opinion. It was a part of Dean's character in season 2: "Croatoan," "What Is..." and his deal which was ultimately similar to suicide, imo. As I said above for Sam, Carver seemed to be pulling these old character traits from early years and sticking them back onto the characters in seasons 8 and 9 without taking into account their growth in between.

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Then Sam spent and entire season ticked off that he didn''t get to die.  Never once did the fact that he'd be leaving Dean behind cross him mind.  Its a mixed message that the show sends.   Sam wants Dean's trust so much he's willing to die for it but Sam doesn't really think all that much of Dean in the first place.  What am I supposed to take away from this?

I've made it clear that I never understood what Carver was trying to do in season 8 and 9. Little of what the characters did made any sense to me.

I disagree that Sam doesn't think much of Dean in the first place though as I talked about above. Sam should have no reason to willingly follow Dean if he didn't think much of him. That would make no sense for him to put his life in the hands of Dean in that case. He might be sure Dean would protect him, but if he didn't value Dean's judgement, all the desire in the world to protect wouldn't compensate for bad decisions, judgement, ethics, etc. So I never bought that.

[FlickChick]

Awesom, you and I see things very differently regarding "Croatoan" and "What Is...". The reason Dean wanted to give up hunting in my opinion was to protect Sam from the threat that John told Dean in "My Time...". He stayed with Sam when he thought Sam might turn into a monster because of the virus because as Dean said to Sam in "Hunted", he had John's words shouting in his head every day. In "What Is...", Dean saw the life he could have with his family in a non-hunting fashion, and yet returned to find the djinn so that those people they saved while hunting would remain saved. It was only after they saw the warehouse and ghost-girl did Dean even consider that it was an illusion. Yes, Dean said he wanted to stay, but he didn't unlike Sam who actually did on two occasions. I also think that Dean's head-space wasn't suicidal, but scared to death that his brother would become evil and someone his father told him he would have to kill. That's one hell of a lot to deal with, IMO. I don't expect us to agree on our views here, but I wanted to express mine on this subject.

[auntvi]

14 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Yes, Dean said he wanted to stay, but he didn't unlike Sam who actually did on two occasions.

Are you talking about when Sam was a kid? I can't blame him for something he did as a child.  I also can't blame him for going to college. And the second time he in season 8 thought Dean was dead.  JMHO

Edited February 16, 2017 by auntvi

[FlickChick]

10 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Are you talking about when Sam was a kid? I can't blame him for something he did as a child.  I also can't blame him for going to college. And the second time he in season 8 thought Dean was dead.  JMHO

No, I'm not referring to Sam as a child. And I know all the reasons that viewers gave for his leaving. It just doesn't change my opinion on the matter. We will agree to disagree.

[DeeDee79]

10 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Over in the Magnificent Seven thread, I posted my irritation that our beloved show so frequently presents black people (particularly males) as evil, stupid, or assholes.  Not fair to that thread to argue it there, so I'm bringing it here.  Even the black characters we love, like Rufus, are total assholes.  Gordon and Henrickson are single-minded obsessive dicks.  Isaac and Tamara are terrible hunters ... and assholes.  Jake starts out cool but ultimately embraces being evil. Uriel?  Both Raphaels?  Even strong, kinda lovable characters, like Alpha Vamp or Guy are straight up Evil with a capital E.

There are some exceptions, like Dean's one-true-love and Missouri Moseley from way back in Season 1 (both women).  And Sarge from Croatoan seems like a pretty good guy.  But it's rare when a black guy shows up who doesn't turn out to be evil or just a spectacular dick.

While I wish that there were more representation of us on this show I feel that the characters that you mentioned all have good or understandable traits:

Rufus: A little rough around the edges but basically the black version of Bobby. His gruffness when first meeting Dean was due to the fact that while he knew of the Winchesters he didn't know that personally and he took offense to Dean's familiarity when addressing him.

Isaac and Tamara: Good hunters but not so different from Walt and Roy that gunned down the brothers in Dark Side of the Moon. The latter were angry that they started the apocalypse, the former for them opening the Devil's Gate and potentially bringing Hell on Earth for everyone.

Jake: Influenced by Azazel, seen to have a moment of conscience after he believed Sam to be dead but ultimately embraced evil. Written as all of the children influenced by the YED so he can't really be singled out.

Gordon: I agree; total asshole but his single mindedness was partly due to his sister being turned into a vamp. Also from his outsider point of view what he'd heard of Sam regarding the demon affiliation brought upon the reaction that every hunter would have had save Dean and Bobby.

Henrikson: With the facts that he had on hand from a law enforcement point of view there was no reason for him not to go after the brothers. As an FBI agent they absolutely should have been on the most wanted list which doesn't make him a villian in my eyes merely someone trying to bring what he feels to be two psychopaths to justice. Once he knew the truth he changed his tune ( and was killed damnit!!!!!)

I wholeheartedly agree that Uriel and Raphael were atrocious; even more so because they were angels. Then again, none of the angels save Castiel have been good in my opinion. Alpha Vamp may be a dick but again he's a vampire and at least he hasn't been killed yet *shrugs* Not trying to undermine your opinion but I thought you might be interested in a different viewpoint from a woman of color.

[auntvi]

Unpopular opinion: I've never liked Quentin Tarantino.  Too violent for me. 

[ILoveReading]

This episode triggered every bitter Dean girl feeling I have.

Sam using the Michael spear is a big no for me.

No mention of Dean's connection to Michael or any mention of his past.