Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[AwesomO4000]

32 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If it had meant anything that he said "no", maybe I`d agree.

I think it did mean something. It got Castiel to rebel and "assbutt" Michael. And since Michael in Adam wasn't as strong, the holy oil flame worked and Michael couldn't kill Lucifer... That meant that half the planet's population didn't get kabloomed and Lucifer ended up in the pit instead of Michael being able to do what he wanted (kill Lucifer) and cause the apocalypse. Michael "winning" was also a bad option - just not as bad as Lucifer winning. So anything causing Michael not to win and instead be vulnerable, so that Lucifer could end up in the pit instead is a good thing. And if Dean had said "yes" to Michael, giving him the stronger vessel, that good thing would've been less likely.

So to me, Dean saying "no" was important, because it kept Michael from killing Lucifer, and provided an example for Castiel that he should fight fate which in the end was helpful.

You might not find that good enough and would rather Dean be the main hero in this scenario, too - with Sam relegated to screw up again - but I'm glad that Sam got this one chance to make up for his mistakes over the course of the entire show.

As you said, miles vary.

23 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And you know this how? Supposition.

It's not supposition that Zachariah's boss was Michael. That was canon. It's also not supposition that Zachariah feared grave repercussions for not fulfilling Michael's orders. That, too is canon, so I don't think it's that much of a stretch to say that Zachariah was following Michael's orders. If you did something Michael didn't want, you got killed - like Anna - so to me, this means Zachariah was doing what Michael wanted. And from those actions, I came up with my assessment of Michael.

Maybe that Michael was in command might be a supposition, but considering that he can easily kill other angels if they don't do what he wants, I find it hard to believe that he wasn't the one in charge, but there is a little supposition on my part there, true.

Edited February 20, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

Quote

You might not find that good enough and would rather Dean be the main hero in this scenario, too - with Sam relegated to screw up again - but I'm glad that Sam got this one chance to make up for his mistakes over the course of the entire show.

I actually think this episode should have gone equal heroes. The Finale of the 5-Seasons-mytharc shouldn`t have been one-character-centric. Shouldn`t have been the Sam-episode that it was. And it shouldn`t have been a Dean-episode either.

Now you might see it as equal but I see Dean as "nobody" so nope, it doesn`t remotely fulfill my idea of equal. Right now I`m hard-pressed for the show ever doing an equal-win-scenario in a big way. It`s not impossible but I doubt the writers can pull it off. The "one hero, one zero" framework is too ingrained for them,  

I think there must have been one or two MOTW that was equal? Action-wise, that is. Not "one makes an emotional appeal" or something. I mean, I don`t credit Sam one iota for Dean killing Zachariah either.

Maybe they need to introduce two Big Bads or twin Big Bads or something so it can finally happen. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Aeryn13

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And again, why would Dean have to jump into the pit? All they really need is Sam/Lucifer in there.

For the exact same reason Sam pulled Adam into the pit with him - to lock up both archangels. That's what the brothers would have done together, willingly.

That's what Dean was originally supposed to do with Sam.

[catrox14]

I don't think there was enough information on Michael to really decide if Michael was 100% trustworthy or not but when the goal was to put Lucifer in the box to save the planet from extinction AND there is a shot to toss in a side order of Michael,  just to make sure it was all really put to bed, why wouldn't Dean do it? Dean is a soldier. IMO, Dean would  be subverting destiny and making his own fate by being Michael's meatsuit and taking Michael into the pit with him, right next to Sam and Lucifer. Michael's arrogance IMO wouldn't have allowed him to consider that Dean would double cross him. If the concern is that Michael could read Dean's mind maybe they could have had Cas find an Enochian spell that blocks Michael from reading Dean's mind.

To me, Dean going off to live with Lisa instead of trying to find God and get Sam out of the Pit was far more out of character and the only way the script could make that happen was to make Sam extract a ridiculous deathbed promise from Dean to not do what he has always done and that's Save Sammy. 

[MysteryGuest]

25 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I don't even now how to reply to this other than to say sorry that I couldn't toe the party line on that one.

I absolutely don't expect anyone to "toe the line" on anything I say, and I apologize for having it come across that way.  Everything I say is simply my opinion/interpretation, and I should have included that in my comment.  As evidenced by this conversation, people's opinions on this issue run the gamut.  And for those of you who are new to this board, believe me this is not a new debate.  We may move away from it for a bit when other topics come up, but we eventually come back to it.  And since there is no right or wrong answer, only personal preference, I'm guessing that's not going to change anytime soon.

[MysteryGuest]

21 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

You might not find that good enough and would rather Dean be the main hero in this scenario, too - with Sam relegated to screw up again - but I'm glad that Sam got this one chance to make up for his mistakes over the course of the entire show.

I always saw them both as heroes in this episode, that's the part I don't understand.  They didn't do it the same way, by becoming vessels for battling angels, but they were each heroic in what they did.  Dean drove right into the lions den to be there for his brother, and he'd have given his life without a 2nd thought to make sure Sam could do what he had to do.  If that's not heroic, then I don't know what is.

[ILoveReading]

I can actually think of several scenarios where Dean could have said yes to Michael.  First, while its fun to analyze, discuss, and speculate in the end the characters are fictional and everything they say and do someone wrote. 

Scripts aren't set in stone.  Nothing about the final needed to resemble what we got. 

Dean says yes in in PONR, episode 18.  This leaves the 3 episodes for the writers to have a reason for Sam to say yes.   Episode 19 showed how powerful Lucifer could be but we see Michael refuses to fight back.  Sam and Dean realize that Michael will not fight Lucifer until he's in his proper vessel.  We hear about Lucifer causing chaos and rather than let more people die  Sam and Dean work out a plan.  Dean works to get Michael on board to try and talk Lucifer down.  Sam says yes.  They meet up at Stull.  Michael, who agreed so Sam would say yes, betrays the plan.  Two things could happen here.  Cas and Bobby show up and end, and when they throw the cocktail which causes the amulet to fall out of Sam's pocket. Or Cas and Bobby could be absent and Michael attacks Lucifer and when Lucifer falls the amulet falls too.  Both eyes lock on it.  Cue flashbacks.  Sam and Dean lock eyes and jump.

Or go with the Pollyanna ending of Alpha and Omega and both brothers agree to forgive each other. 

Sam and Dean don't necessary have to be in hell.  Chuck could pull them out for their sacrifice.  Or Cas could go into the cage and try to rescue them but something goes wrong and Sam and Dean end up opposite sides of the country.  They have no idea if the other is alive.  They can be reunited immediately or do a time jump of a year of Sam searching for Dean.  Because when Cas pulled them, he didnt' have enough mojo to get all of Sam and accidentlally left his soul behind.  s6 plays out exactly like it did, just minus Lisa. 

If the show hadn't been renewed, I would immediately flash to a repeat of the pilot.  Sam says- I heard there is a vamp nest Arizona. maybe we can stop and see the Grand Canyon.  Dean throws stuff in trunk.  "We got work do to."  Impala drives off to classic rock.  Leaves the audience wondering if Sam and Dean were resurrected or his is their heaven. 

Neither brother is labelled the bad one.  You re-introduce the amulet in a meaningful way.  Neither side feels short changed. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Now you might see it as equal

No, I didn't see it as equal, but I didn't see it as zero either - as I outlined above. I saw Dean's part as a lesser but still extremely important part*. But Sam got pretty much shut out of the YED kill, even though Sam's association with the YED was just as strong as Dean's, in my opinion, and if the show had ended in season 2 instead of being renewed, then things would've ended with only Dean being the hero... and he didn't even have anything to make up for there. Sam had to make amends in season 5, and so I'm glad he got the chance.

So for me, I didn't need equal billing in "Swan Song," because Dean already got a win in the season 2 finale, and Dean didn't have a huge screw up to make amends for.

* Like the transmission in a car. If it doesn't work... neither does the rest of the car. It's not the majority of the car, but it's a crucial part of the car running, and without it, you pretty much have a hunk of junk for parts. So does that mean I'm calling Sam a hunk of junk without Dean? Heh. I guess I am ; ) (And apparently season 8 agrees).

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

To me, Dean going off to live with Lisa instead of trying to find God and get Sam out of the Pit was far more out of character and the only way the script could make that happen was to make Sam extract a ridiculous deathbed promise from Dean to not do what he has always done and that's Save Sammy. 

They did "find God." He said "screw you." And Dean did try to save Sam... it's just that he couldn't find any way to do it, and Cas neglected to tell Dean that "oh, yeah, I got your brother out, but something appears to be wrong with him. Oops." Which I'm not going to call ridiculous, because I actually enjoyed that whole turn of events in season 6, but I understand that miles vary.

What was ridiculous to me was the supposed "agreement" they came up with in season 8 - that supposedly happened offscreen - that they "wouldn't look for each other", that Sam supposedly followed this one time for some reasoning he was never allowed to explain except with "I didn't look because it wasn't my problem. What's wrong with that?" That was ridiculous, in my opinion.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean drove right into the lions den to be there for his brother, and he'd have given his life without a 2nd thought to make sure Sam could do what he had to do.  If that's not heroic, then I don't know what is.

I don`t think he acted cowardly or anything but the scope of it is for me: he drove a car somewhere. Then Sam did the entire heavy lifting. That would be equivalent for me for a person in peril in an episode providing a little bit of an assist in the final fight against whatever monster. But nothing that is vital or couldn`t be handled otherwise. That makes me feel like "well, that`s nice, here have a little pat on the head for effort." That is how Dean`s "role" in the episode felt to me.

Quote

But Sam got pretty much shut out of the YED kill, even though Sam's association with the YED was just as strong as Dean's, in my opinion, and if the show had ended in season 2 instead of being renewed, then things would've ended with only Dean being the hero

That win is shared nearly 50/50 with John so it`s not a solo win for Dean IMO.

I`ve tried to make peace with the Season 11 Finale because I think it was the last chance for Dean. And at least they kept him central in it even though it wasn`t really epic.

So I never really got from the show the big mytharc Finale solo win in the way I wanted it. I`d say I got 35 % or so of one. Yup, it being in a Finale is non-negotiable. Guess that will have to do. But it means my bitterness over the Season 5 Finale just will never abade.

Yup, in some areas you will need to pry the "tat" from my cold dead fingers if you don`t give me "tit".   

Edited February 20, 2017 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think he acted cowardly or anything but the scope of it is for me: he drove a car somewhere. Then Sam did the entire heavy lifting. That would be equivalent for me for a person in peril in an episode providing a little bit of an assist in the final fight against whatever monster. But nothing that is vital or couldn`t be handled otherwise. That makes me feel like "well, that`s nice, here have a little pat on the head for effort." That is how Dean`s "role" in the episode felt to me.

Okay.  We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.  I don't see how it's any more satisfying to see Dean/Michael kill Sam/Lucifer, be killed by them, or jump in the pit with them so they both die.  Doing what he did absolutely worked for me, but obviously, opinions vary.

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That is how Dean`s "role" in the episode felt to me.

And that is a valid opinion.

For me, I could see Dean's role as not needed if it was considered that Dean's "yes" would have been important for the fight, but as I said above, I think his "no" was important for the "win."* It wasn't the thing that got Lucifer into the pit, no, but it was the thing that didn't allow Michael to get what he wanted either. And what Michael wanted was also not a good thing.

* The winchester's goal "win."

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam and Dean realize that Michael will not fight Lucifer until he's in his proper vessel.

There would have to be some major changes, because in the beginning, Zach said they wanted Lucifer in an inferior vessel, so that they'd be assured of winning.

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

You re-introduce the amulet in a meaningful way. 

Some people violently hate the amulet, so that might not have gone over very well that it turned out to the a vital part.

Also there still would have had to have been a way to open the cage, and by PONR they didn't even have the information yet. Dean would've had to convince Michael to put Lucifer in the cage - difficult, since he wanted to kill him - and someone would've had to find out how to open it. The rings likely would've gone away - and so no Death: Boo! Love me some Death - but something would've needed to be in it's place.

I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but most of season 5 would have had to be rewritten in my opinion in order to accommodate it, and the theme of fighting fate would've had to be subverted, again in my opinion anyway.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So for me, I didn't need equal billing in "Swan Song," because Dean already got a win in the season 2 finale, and Dean didn't have a huge screw up to make amends for.

He killed Azazel but he sold his soul for Sam.  I almost feel like that's a wash.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think his "no" was important for the "win."* It wasn't the thing that got Lucifer into the pit, no, but it was the thing that didn't allow Michael to get what he wanted either. And what Michael wanted was also not a good thing.

Michael got what he wanted, a perfectly fine vessel he could use for the big fight. Solo-Sam was the one who defeated him as well.  

Edited February 20, 2017 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

Michael got what he wanted, a perfectly fine vessel he could use for the big fight. Sam was the one who defeated him as well.  

But it wasn't the best vessel, and he didn't get to have the big fight, because he got Molotoved by Castiel coming to support Dean - which likely wouldn't have happened at all had Michael been in Dean* - and by the time Michael got back, the fight was over and he ended up in the pit. Definitely not what Michael wanted in the least, in my opinion, anyway.

I think Michael in Dean would have logically equaled dead Lucifer, because that's even what Dean was talking about in PONR, and that was not the winning scenario for the world, so we will have to agree to disagree.

* Castiel either would've been pissed off or thinking Dean didn't need him... more likely the first one. He likely would've grabbed Sam and ran to hide him somewhere.

[Aeryn13]

Michael didn`t seem to have a care in the world showing up in Adam whereas Lucifer waited till he had his one true vessel. So, it seemed not to matter too much to him in the end. One true vessel my ass. He should have at least made a last-ditch attempt on that field to appeal to Dean. 

But then they screwed that character over pretty much since then. Apparently he broke easily in the Cage because he is such a weakling and even God couldn`t give half of a crap last Season. So much for Heaven`s Number 2 after God.    

[AwesomO4000]

38 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That win is shared nearly 50/50 with John so it`s not a solo win for Dean IMO.

And Sam wouldn't have won without Dean and Castiel's assist. No Molotov, no Dean talking with LuciferSam, no fight, no soldier, no win for Sam. So no solo win for Sam in my mind either. Obviously mile vary.

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Michael didn`t seem to have a care in the world showing up in Adam whereas Lucifer waited till he had his one true vessel. So, it seemed not to matter too much to him in the end. One true vessel my ass. He should have at least made a last-ditch attempt on that field to appeal to Dean. 

Michael was arrogant and he would rather be petty that Dean said "no" than do the smart thing and try again. Michael's arrogance is what got him defeated, since he certainly wasn't expecting Dean to show up or Castiel to defy him.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

For the exact same reason Sam pulled Adam into the pit with him - to lock up both archangels.

I always thought it was Lucifer (in-a-Sam) who pulled Michael (in-an-Adam) into the pit.  Sam didn't care whether or not Michael was locked up in the cage, so long as Lucifer was.  So why would he grab Adam?  He wouldn't.  Sam had just enough strength/control to make Lucifer fall, but Lucifer regained control; albeit too late to keep from falling, but not too late to grab Michael so he'd suffer alongside him.  

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I always thought it was Lucifer (in-a-Sam) who pulled Michael (in-an-Adam) into the pit.  Sam didn't care whether or not Michael was locked up in the cage, so long as Lucifer was.  So why would he grab Adam?  He wouldn't.  Sam had just enough strength/control to make Lucifer fall, but Lucifer regained control; albeit too late to keep from falling, but not too late to grab Michael so he'd suffer alongside him.  

I don't think Sam cared either way about Michael, but when he tried to stop Sam from jumping into the pit, his only option was to grab hold and take him with him.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I always thought it was Lucifer (in-a-Sam) who pulled Michael (in-an-Adam) into the pit.  Sam didn't care whether or not Michael was locked up in the cage, so long as Lucifer was.  So why would he grab Adam?  He wouldn't.  Sam had just enough strength/control to make Lucifer fall, but Lucifer regained control; albeit too late to keep from falling, but not too late to grab Michael so he'd suffer alongside him.  

Oh that's interesting because I always thought it was completely inadvertent that Michael!Adam ended up in the Cage. He had been blasted away by Cas and then he materialized at the last minute. Sam was in control from the moment he saw the army man. He was ready to the backwards swan dive into the portal, and Michael reached out and tried to grab him and Sam either pulled him in or he tried to push him away and they got entangled.

But I didn't think Lucifer gained control back until they were in the Cage.

Edited February 20, 2017 by catrox14

[bearcatfan]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh that's interesting because I always thought it was completely inadvertent that Michael!Adam ended up in the Cage. He had been blasted away by Cas and then he materialized at the last minute. Sam was in control from the moment he saw the army man. He was ready to the backwards swan dive into the portal, and Michael reached out and tried to grab him and then I thik Sam either pulled him in or he tried to push him away and they got entangled.

But I didn't think it was Lucifer was in control at all until they ended up in the Pit.

I thought Sam was trying to push Adam away but

I thought it was Sam in control the rest of the way and that Michael tried to grab Samifer and it was completely accidental that Michael!Adam fell into the pit with Sam.  don't think it was Samifer who grabbed him. Michael!Adam grabbed onto Samifer. Sam who was in control tried to pull away

That's the way I saw it as well. Sam was going to jump in solo but then Michael tried to pull him away from the hole. Sam pulled away from Michael which caused Michael to lose his balance and fall.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Some people violently hate the amulet, so that might not have gone over very well that it turned out to the a vital part.

This is completely off of the current debate but I loved the amulet after it was shown how it was gifted to Dean and how much it seemed to mean to both brothers.

[catrox14]

 To me Michael seemed more indifferent to humanity than actively hating them like Lucifer since he wouldn't support Lucifer in his rebellion against humanity and God. I mean maybe that was more about his loyalty to God than anything but  I think his indifference is why he didn't particularly care if half the planet was torched in his battle with Lucifer.

I thought Michael was all about his mission from God (Dad) and he was gonna complete it. That's where he differed from Dean in that Dean was going to do every thing he could to NOT kill Sam and Michael was doing what he had to do to kill Lucifer and fulfill God's command even if he still loved Lucifer (which I think he did).  I thought maybe Dean could use his powers of persuasion as he had with others if he had been given more opportunities.  But alas...we'll never know I guess

[ILoveReading]

12 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This is completely off of the current debate but I loved the amulet after it was shown how it was gifted to Dean and how much it seemed to mean to both brothers.

I'm not a fan of it, but at a moment like that it would be more believable than a plastic toy that was retconned into existence.  Although I will never understand why they couldn't just use Dean.   He was right there.

As for the connection between Michael and Dean (and Sam and Lucifer too) is that I feel it goes much deeper than just potential vessels.  I forget exactly who said it but we were told that as it is in Heaven so it must be on Earth.  The angels went through a lot of trouble to make sure John and Mary ended up together so Sam and Dean could be born.  Azazel, also did some elaborate plotting to make sure sure things were what he needed them to be.  Sam and Dean were basically set up for the job.  They were mirrors to Michael and Lucifer.  So as long as one or both or alive that connection will exist for me. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm not a fan of it, but at a moment like that it would be more believable than a plastic toy that was retconned into existence.  Although I will never understand why they couldn't just use Dean.   He was right there.

I agree that if Dean hadn't thrown the amulet away and had been wearing it during the fight with Lucifer I can completely buy that the memory of Sam giving it to him would have broken through Lucifer's hold. The plastic soldier....not so much.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I forget exactly who said it but we were told that as it is in Heaven so it must be on Earth. 

Gabriel said it in Changing Channels.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think it did mean something. It got Castiel to rebel and "assbutt" Michael. And since Michael in Adam wasn't as strong, the holy oil flame worked and Michael couldn't kill Lucifer... That meant that half the planet's population didn't get kabloomed and Lucifer ended up in the pit instead of Michael being able to do what he wanted (kill Lucifer) and cause the apocalypse. Michael "winning" was also a bad option - just not as bad as Lucifer winning. So anything causing Michael not to win and instead be vulnerable, so that Lucifer could end up in the pit instead is a good thing. And if Dean had said "yes" to Michael, giving him the stronger vessel, that good thing would've been less likely.

So to me, Dean saying "no" was important, because it kept Michael from killing Lucifer, and provided an example for Castiel that he should fight fate which in the end was helpful.

I think it would have been pretty interesting to have Michael!Dean be molotov'd by Cas for a hot minute. That might have lead to some interesting debates between Dean and Cas once he saved them from the Cage. LOL

Would Bobby have shot Michael!Dean like he shot Lucifer!Sam? 

I dunno I think it would have been some really interesting drama to have them actually fight. I mean if Dean and Sam are trying to break through Michael and Lucifer respectively. I dunno, I think that would have been pretty cool  and quite the acting tour de force for both Jared and Jensen

[Partly]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

As for the connection between Michael and Dean (and Sam and Lucifer too) is that I feel it goes much deeper than just potential vessels.  I forget exactly who said it but we were told that as it is in Heaven so it must be on Earth.  The angels went through a lot of trouble to make sure John and Mary ended up together so Sam and Dean could be born.  Azazel, also did some elaborate plotting to make sure sure things were what he needed them to be.  Sam and Dean were basically set up for the job.  They were mirrors to Michael and Lucifer. 

 

My unpopular opinion: I think the whole "Dean and Sam were fated since the beginning of time to be the vessels for Michael and Lucifer" is one giant angel retcon.  I don't think that Heaven or Hell cared a whit about the Winchesters until after Sam survived Azezel's tests and Dean broke the first seal in Hell.  That's when they popped up on everyone's radar and suddenly the angels and demons were willing to move heaven and hell to make sure the Winchesters became the chosen ones and, in fact, they made sure that the Winchesters were always the chosen ones.  The angels (and Lucifer) forced their mythology onto Dean and Sam -- manipulating people, circumstances, and history as needed.  It wasn't even a conscious choice, once they saw the Winchesters as the chosen, they became the chosen. It was right.  It was destined.

Now I realize this is just my own private head-cannon, but I like it.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I dunno I think it would have been some really interesting drama to have them actually fight. I mean if Dean and Sam are trying to break through Michael and Lucifer respectively. I dunno, I think that would have been pretty cool  and quite the acting tour de force for both Jared and Jensen

I might have agreed with you except that they did the fight in "When the Levee Breaks" the season before, so it would've seemed like a repeat for me - and since I hated that fight and all of the repercussions from it, I likely wouldn't have enjoyed a reminder. Now if they hadn't done that fight in season 4, that might've been different, and I probably would've enjoyed something like that.

Still not convinced Dean would've been able to change Michael's mind at all, though, especially because I entirely agree with your above assessment of Michael about his indifference to humanity and his single-mindedness about the mission to kill Lucifer.

4 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

This is completely off of the current debate but I loved the amulet after it was shown how it was gifted to Dean and how much it seemed to mean to both brothers.

Oh, I adored the amulet for exactly the reasons you stated. However some hated it, because they thought it represented a hand-me-down gift and is a symbol of Dean's over-devotion to Sam, so giving it that kind of power in saving the world I think might've set off some really bad feelings. Who knows, maybe originally the amulet was supposed to be involved somehow, but they changed it at the last moment to something new so as to avoid any previous connections, because they knew about those who hated it. (Purely a musing on my part there.)

1 hour ago, Partly said:

Now I realize this is just my own private head-cannon, but I like it.

I really like it too!

And it would explain all of the other "special children" and the busy Cupids all over the world making sure that certain bloodlines get together... since those are likely angel vessel match-ups as well.

Edited February 21, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I might have agreed with you except that they did the fight in "When the Levee Breaks" the season before, so it would've seemed like a repeat for me - and since I hated that fight and all of the repercussions from it, I likely wouldn't have enjoyed a reminder. Now if they hadn't done that fight in season 4, that might've been different, and I probably would've enjoyed something like that.

I guess to me it would a Lucifer vs Michael fight rather than Sam v Dean. I would like to have seen Jensen!Michael fighting Jared!Lucifer. See them fight as those characters.  With Sam and Dean alternately trying to get control back.  I"m weird LOL

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Still not convinced Dean would've been able to change Michael's mind at all, though, especially because I entirely agree with your above assessment of Michael about his indifference to humanity and his single-mindedness about the mission to kill Lucifer.

To me if he's indifferent then he's not passionate about humanity one way or the other, so I think Dean could have found a way to get him to become less indifferent and maybe get him to see that killing humanity via fighting Lucifer wouldn't really do much for him in Guck's eyes.  But eh, that's just me.

[PAForrest]

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I always thought it was Lucifer (in-a-Sam) who pulled Michael (in-an-Adam) into the pit.  Sam didn't care whether or not Michael was locked up in the cage, so long as Lucifer was.  So why would he grab Adam?  He wouldn't.  Sam had just enough strength/control to make Lucifer fall, but Lucifer regained control; albeit too late to keep from falling, but not too late to grab Michael so he'd suffer alongside him.  

I'll grant you that could have been what was happening - but, you know, it's not at all clear, especially since Lucifer wasn't in control at that point. Makes just as much sense that Sam pulled Adam in as Michael to keep him from wreaking havoc.  See, that's the thing, it's all muddled without Dean playing his original intended role. I think the point is that Kripke meant for both archangels to end up in the box, stopping the apocalypse for good. So if Dean had played the role he was supposed to play, he would have jumped into the pit willingly with Sam, which frankly makes a lot more sense than maybe Lucifer grabbing Michael since Lucifer wasn't in charge anymore.

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess to me it would a Lucifer vs Michael fight rather than Sam v Dean. I would like to have seen Jensen!Michael fighting Jared!Lucifer. See them fight as those characters.  With Sam and Dean alternately trying to get control back.  I"m weird LOL

I don't think it's weird because that's what everything was leading up to, and how it was supposed to go down.

[DeeDee79]

11 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Who knows, maybe originally the amulet was supposed to be involved somehow, but they changed it at the last moment to something new so as to avoid any previous connections, because they knew about those who hated it. (Purely a musing on my part there.)

If I'm remembering correctly it was written out because Jensen hated wearing it. He said it was always hitting him in the mouth and at one point it chipped his tooth. I'm thinking if this hadn't happened it would have probably ( hopefully ) taken the place of the toy soldier.

[shang yiet]

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I have such a visceral loathing of that entire episode ... I hate that episode

 I am shocked that you hate Swan Song! Positively shocked, I tell you! You've been so reticent about that episode which cannot be named ....

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this episode should have gone equal heroes. The finale of the 5-season mytharc should not have been one-character-centric. Should not have been the Sam ep that it was. And should not have been a Dean ep either

I would have agreed absolutely 100% with you except for what happened before (season 4 finale). Were Sam and Dean seen as equal screw-ups? Did Dean release Lucifer? Did the season five opener have Sam castigating Dean for being tricked by the angels?  Sam needed that extra glory.

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They both fight their respective archangels down the pit

No thanks. Firstly, Dean had already been to hell. It would have been way overkill for him to go a second time. Secondly, how can you call it redemption for Sam when he pulls Dean into hell for more suffering? That would have been another big mistake for Sam. Thirdly, why should Dean fall into the hole with Sam? Sam didn't accompany Dean to hell the first time. He didn't follow Dean to purgatory.

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early drafts ... Sam was right on every issue

Funny how when the show did start, Sam was wrong on every issue.

Now, could Dean have been given more to do in Swan Song? Sure, of course, just like Sam could have done more in the Amara finale.

I can't handle more Dean man pain myself. That's the problem with having Dean carry the emotional arc. Just like some have had enough of Sam/mytharc, I've had enough of Dean/emo.

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hero/zero

Going by that reasoning, I guess Sam was a zero in the Amara finale. He was too weak and pathetic to face Amara, huh? Dean saved the day, not familial love. So we're even now.

[Aeryn13]

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Just like some have had enough of Sam/mytharc, I've had enough of Dean/emo.

I do actually have enough of both. 

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Going by that reasoning, I guess Sam was a zero in the Amara finale. He was too weak and pathetic to face Amara, huh? Dean saved the day, not familial love. So we're even now.

Sam didn`t have a role in the Amara Finale, true, but I didn`t think Dean got quite as much of the glorious role in it either. So not even for me. Familial love never saved the day so far, I think. Familial co-dependency endangered many a days. 

[sarthaz]

Since Michael and Lucifer are still alive, and their true vessels are still in tact, did the Winchesters really avert the apocalypse?

[SueB]

32 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Since Michael and Lucifer are still alive, and their true vessels are still in tact, did the Winchesters really avert the apocalypse?

Since you asked a question, I'll respond. I believe the answer is "yes" (they averted the pre-planned Apocalypse).  There WAS a blue-print for a cage fight with Michael and Lucifer. But the Angels were the ones who really set the timing of when it would happen.  They arranged the marriage to result in the birth of two perfect vessels.  They nudged them along the way to the showdown.  And the vessels said "nope."  As many Angels have said, Team Free Will took that blue-print and tore it up.  And God was totally okay with it.  He was PROUD of them for writing their own story. So:
- There may have been a pre-planned Apocalypse but TFW shot that to hell and gone -- and the timing was not of God's choosing but that of the archangels.  Pesonally, I think God is more pissed at Michael than Lucifer.  Otherwise he wouldn't have left him in the cage.
- If there is another "Apocalypse", it's not likely to use the torn up script.  The Angels have no wings.  Michael is in no shape to fight. Lucifer no longer is bringing into fruition a millenniums-old plan. He was content to just smash Daddy's toys.  So he's gone from mentally disturbed to batshit to suddenly interested in fatherhood.  In short --- he wouldn't want the old script either.
 

Bottom line: the script and the players have all been mangled and moved on.  They are writing a new future.  Their COULD be an Apocalypse but it won't be the same.  They tried to rush that moment and now it's gone. 

****going back to silent running****

[Myrelle]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

Pesonally, I think God is more pissed at Michael than Lucifer.  Otherwise he wouldn't have left him in the cage.

Well, Amara help God if Michael ever gets out then; especially being that God was the one who ordered Michael to throw Lucifer into the cage to begin with. I think his anger might make Lucifer's look like a joke-oh wait, the SPN writers already did that.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

I'll grant you that could have been what was happening - but, you know, it's not at all clear, especially since Lucifer wasn't in control at that point. Makes just as much sense that Sam pulled Adam in as Michael to keep him from wreaking havoc.  See, that's the thing, it's all muddled without Dean playing his original intended role. I think the point is that Kripke meant for both archangels to end up in the box, stopping the apocalypse for good. So if Dean had played the role he was supposed to play, he would have jumped into the pit willingly with Sam, which frankly makes a lot more sense than maybe Lucifer grabbing Michael since Lucifer wasn't in charge anymore.

It may not have been clear to you, but it seemed clear enough to me.  See, the thing to me is, you keep saying some variation of 'if Dean had played his intended role', which infers that Dean did not play his intended role.  But that's all pure speculation on your part - and not how it played out on screen.  Kripke was still in charge of the show.  So, imo, if he'd wanted both brothers to go down the pit, they would have.  

I find it interesting that, in a discussion about S8 when many Sam-fans were speculating that Sam was somehow acting OOC, the argument from many non-Sam fans was "well, that's how it played out on screen, so obviously, it was in character and was what was meant to happen."  However, when the proverbial shoe is on the other foot, it's all "Dean just didn't play his intended part and that's not what was supposed to happen."  Except that it did happen just that way.  Sauce for the goose and all...

This is not to say it's not okay for people to express their displeasure about what happened, and wish and speculate about how it could have played out differently.  But to say, 'That's not how it was supposed to happen' about the S5 finale, would be like me saying 'Sam was never really supposed to not look for Dean' in S8.  That line of reasoning just doesn't make any sense to me.  I might not like that it happened.  I might wish that it had happened differently.  I might also like to speculate as to how I think the show would have been better had it happened differently, or why it happened the way it did, but the bottom line is (as the non-Sam fans above have said): it did happen that way.  

[Aeryn13]

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I find it interesting that, in a discussion about S8 when many Sam-fans were speculating that Sam was somehow acting OOC, the argument from many non-Sam fans was "well, that's how it played out on screen, so obviously, it was in character and was what was meant to happen."  

I have never really seen this happen. At best people expressing that they didn`t find it out of character.

Usually, it`s the other way around. Dean doing negative stuff is "well, canon, therefore perfectly in character" whereas Sam-negative stuff is OOC-writing. Personally, I think both get OOC-writing in terms of "come on, where is the throughline for the character in this?". And there are always bad plots that in and of themselves are unrelated to character-writing.

The show is especially bad with throwing out some ridiculous cliffhanger and then spending the summer trying to think how they will continue that or write themselves out of it. Yup, that is what I want to see in a narrative: making up shit as you go along with no real planning ahead.   

In terms of how Season 5 played out, obviously the episode is as it is. Was it always intended that way? Nope, because the writer`s strike did something good and forced Kripke to adapt his original plans of Super!Sam going dark and saving Dean from hell and we would have had no angels. He admitted that much. The ending would have played on the stupid "save or kill him" motiv. Not in any way better IMO than what we got

So with the post-strike alteration, if that was Kripke`s new plan, do I consider it narrative crap and a stupid resolution to Seasons 4 and 5? Hell yes. If it wasn`t quite the plan and he made the alterations, that assessment doesn`t really change much. I don`t care when or how he screwed it up, just that I believe he did.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

See, the thing to me is, you keep saying some variation of 'if Dean had played his intended role', which infers that Dean did not play his intended role.  But that's all pure speculation on your part - and not how it played out on screen.  Kripke was still in charge of the show.  So, imo, if he'd wanted both brothers to go down the pit, they would have.  

 

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But to say, 'That's not how it was supposed to happen' about the S5 finale, would be like me saying 'Sam was never really supposed to not look for Dean' in S8.

The difference is that there were interviews after 5.22 wherein this was stated-although no, sorry, I don't have any sources; it was all so long ago. But maybe someone else does. I personally remember an interview in early S5 where Kripke stated that the episode that turned out to be PONR was originally going to examine Dean and Michael's relationship more deeply. I remember it because the Dean fandom was thrilled with that news. But as the season went on and renewal seemed likely w/o Kripke on board there was the feeling that there was a lot of shuffling of many things BTS. Kripke's isn't even credited with writing Swan Song which was definitely and always a  WTF?! for me.

OTOH, Carver stated exactly what he was going to have Sam doing in S8 at that summer's Comic Con, constantly reinforcing that it would be a more "mature" storyline for Sam. He never said anything else. The problem was totally with the execution again, IMO-and this through both the acting AND the writing-again IMO. I'm not sure if all of that anger from Sam in the first part of the season was more of a writing choice or an acting choice or both, but if it was meant to be an example of and convey a mature reaction, and if his actions while Dean was gone were meant to be seen as mature actions, then Geez Louise!-Did everybody miss the boat on that one or what?! I'm still not sure what happened there, but the showrunners' intentions were all made plain and laid bare that summer. And no change was ever even considered in that until 2 years later.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Myrelle

[RulerofallIsurvey]

24 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I have never really seen this happen. At best people expressing that they didn`t find it out of character.

I believe it was either in this thread or the all eps thread.  

I'm not saying that sentiment is wrong.  I'm just applying it equally across characters/plots.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Kripke's isn't even credited with writing that Swan Song which was definitely a  WTF?! for me.

According to Imdb: (granted, that info could be wrong, and I don't have the dvd handy to check.):

Directed by

Steve Boyum

Writing Credits  

Eric Kripke...(created by)

Eric Kripke...(teleplay by)

Eric 'Giz' Gewirtz...(story by) (as Eric Gewirtz)

So again - even if he changed his mind because of what ever reason (it didn't have to be a writer's strike.  Sometimes people just change their minds, and they are allowed to do that.) - imo, if he wanted both brothers to go down to the pit, he would have had them do that.  

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So again - even if he changed his mind because of what ever reason (it didn't have to be a writer's strike.  Sometimes people just change their minds, and they are allowed to do that.) - imo, if he wanted both brothers to go down to the pit, he would have had them do that.  

Kripke's story kept changing.  At first he said he only got 80% of the story he wanted and later that was down to 50%.   So it doesn't sound like it went down like he would have planned it.

[Aeryn13]

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even if he changed his mind because of what ever reason (it didn't have to be a writer's strike.  Sometimes people just change their minds, and they are allowed to do that.) 

The change in story because of the writer`s strike is well-documented. Kripke came out and said it outright and it is in interviews in those companion books they used to put out. But that was two years prior. I don`t think it had anything to do anymore with the Season Finale.

Interestingly, even before that Kripke also came out with saying he trashed the roadhouse and ended the Psykids arc earlier basically because he had gotten bored with those concepts. So IMO he has always been that kind of writer who didn`t have really set plans they wouldn`t change.   

In general, as for what showrunners say at any given point during or after the show, that always changes so much. I think Kripke is not unlike many others. At least Kripke wasn`t like Julie Plec. If I had a nickel for everytime she said something completely contradictory about the show, I`d be rich.    

Edited February 21, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

I think there was a ton of turmoil BTS in the latter half of S5 and it showed in many of the episodes post 99 Problems, IMO. I think something similar happened at the end of 11. Even the actors said at one of the cons that the Alpha and Omega script had to be revised(and Dabb wrote it even though, contractually, Carver would have still been the showrunner) and that the actors all had some input into those revisions.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Kripke's story kept changing.  At first he said he only got 80% of the story he wanted and later that was down to 50%.   So it doesn't sound like it went down like he would have planned it.

That sounds to me more like he was trying to keep public opinion of him favorable after the fact (political spin, if you will), depending on what audience to whom he was speaking rather than something intentional done beforehand.  ::shrug::

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Since Michael and Lucifer are still alive, and their true vessels are still in tact, did the Winchesters really avert the apocalypse?

They averted AN apocalypse. It seems to me once a True vessel always a true vessel. Its not as though they are Hands of God and its one and done.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It seems to me once a True vessel always a true vessel. Its not as though they are Hands of God and its one and done.

Are you sure?  The Mark of Cain couldn't go to Dean again (per Guck), which is why Sam had it for a millisecond when they tried to off Amara the hard way.  That wasn't a Hand of God either.  The only reason Sam and not Dean was a suitable vessel for Lucifer was because of the demon blood taint when he was a baby.  Otherwise, their 'bloodline' is exactly the same.  But now Dean's been a demon.  If a few drops of demon blood in the mouth when he was a baby and had no choice over the matter were enough to taint Sam as 'an abomination' then surely Dean choosing the MoC (kind of like Lucifer, huh?)* and becoming a demon is enough to make him no longer suitable to act as vessel for the highest archangel anymore either.**  (If said archangel were in any condition to start another fight with his brother, which I don't think he is.)   

*Lucifer said Guck gave him the Mark.  But did Guck force him to take the Mark?  Or did Guck ask Lucifer to do it, since He thought Lucifer could handle it, and Lucifer agreed?

**In fact, if Dean is still suitable as a vessel for the highest archangel after having had the MoC and becoming a demon, but yet Sam was all 'unpure' and 'an abomination' long before he started ingesting demon blood on his own, I would have to call foul.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The only reason Sam and not Dean was a suitable vessel for Lucifer was because of the demon blood taint when he was a baby.  Otherwise, their 'bloodline' is exactly the same.

I never saw it that way.  I always thought that Sam or Dean could technically host Lucifer or Michael because their bloodline was the same, with Lucifer being through the Campbell line and Michael through the Winchester.  However, since they (and by they I mean the angels and maybe the demons) were doing a big brother/little brother analogy, Dean was Michael and Sam was the one given the demon blood to lead the demon army and be Lucifer's vessel because he was the younger.  So, in other words, Sam wasn't Lucifer's vessel because he had the demon blood, he had the demon blood because he was Lucifer's vessel.

[SueB]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Are you sure?  The Mark of Cain couldn't go to Dean again (per Guck), which is why Sam had it for a millisecond when they tried to off Amara the hard way.  That wasn't a Hand of God either.  The only reason Sam and not Dean was a suitable vessel for Lucifer was because of the demon blood taint when he was a baby.  Otherwise, their 'bloodline' is exactly the same.  But now Dean's been a demon.  If a few drops of demon blood in the mouth when he was a baby and had no choice over the matter were enough to taint Sam as 'an abomination' then surely Dean choosing the MoC (kind of like Lucifer, huh?)* and becoming a demon is enough to make him no longer suitable to act as vessel for the highest archangel anymore either.**  (If said archangel were in any condition to start another fight with his brother, which I don't think he is.)   

*Lucifer said Guck gave him the Mark.  But did Guck force him to take the Mark?  Or did Guck ask Lucifer to do it, since He thought Lucifer could handle it, and Lucifer agreed?

**In fact, if Dean is still suitable as a vessel for the highest archangel after having had the MoC and becoming a demon, but yet Sam was all 'unpure' and 'an abomination' long before he started ingesting demon blood on his own, I would have to call foul.

Seems like a question... so I'll answer.

Dean couldn't take the Mark because he was 'tainted'.  I guess my interpretation was not that he couldn't bear the Mark but that he wouldn't provide much of a defense before going psycho.  Sam was, IMO, "fresh" to the internal battle.  

I think the bloodlines means they can be archangel vessels.  If Claire could also house Castiel, then I would think either brother could house either archangel.  As for whether or not they have the same blood they had back in S5 -- Sam has been through the trials and housed a regular angel for months -- but Luci still wanted him.  Dean has been a vampire, briefly a Jefferson Starship, a demon, and bore the Mark for 15+ months.  But since Gadreel could live in a messed up Sam, why couldn't an archangel live in a less messed-up Dean?  

Finally, Guck 'entrusted' the Mark to Lucifer.  Was he forced?  No, I don't think so.  Then again, God asked.  He may not have had a real chance at saying 'no'.  But neither thought the Mark would corrupt.  Further, it goes hand and glove with Lucifer's proud persona that he would want to be given an important responsibility.  So, I think the effect the Mark was unexpected but Luci took it on of his own volition.  

Edited February 21, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Are you sure?  The Mark of Cain couldn't go to Dean again (per Guck), which is why Sam had it for a millisecond when they tried to off Amara the hard way.  That wasn't a Hand of God either

Am I sure about what? 

It's my thought process on the power of an archangels chosen vessel determined by bloodlines going back to Cain and Abel vs inanimate objects designated for a certain purpose.  I don't concur with a theory that the archangels were lying about the bloodlines myself. I mean that would be a huge retcon of Dean and Sam's  relationship to the archangels that's been sold for 8 seasons now.

Oh boy, the Mark of Cain. There is so much retcon on that lore that it makes me cry :(.  It was a curse from Guck that could be removed by spellwork. Bloodlines in the end  have nothing to do with it's power AFAIK

Cain and Dean both bore the Mark at the literal same time and Cain was able to draw the First Blade into his hand and the Mark glowed.  Soooo why would that be the case if someone who had the Mark once couldn't bear it again. Shouldn't the "taint" still be in effect once they pass the Mark onto someone else?  Why was Dean "tainted" ? The only way that works is if the manner in which the Mark was removed by Rowena's spell made Dean "tainted". (See also, fuck you Guck/writers for that terminology)

So no, I don't see that as equivalent to the True Vessel designation/role.  Guck could choose to reset anything he wanted but he didn't. They spent all that time on Sam in s11 potentially facing being Lucifer's OTV again even after he was used as the vessel already. Why waste all that time on Sam refusing to be his vessel again if it was one and done like the Hands of God?

[Aeryn13]

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I never saw it that way.  I always thought that Sam or Dean could technically host Lucifer or Michael because their bloodline was the same, with Lucifer being through the Campbell line and Michael through the Winchester.  However, since they (and by they I mean the angels and maybe the demons) were doing a big brother/little brother analogy, Dean was Michael and Sam was the one given the demon blood to lead the demon army and be Lucifer's vessel because he was the younger.  So, in other words, Sam wasn't Lucifer's vessel because he had the demon blood, he had the demon blood because he was Lucifer's vessel.

I agree, the one-true-vesseldom was assigned by birth order. Since that didn`t change, it technically still stands. And I doubt anything that happened to them since makes them unsuitable for angel housing.