Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[AwesomO4000]

21 hours ago, Airmid said:

That still wouldn't excuse Michael in my mind from standing on the edge of a hole into a prison when the keys to open and close it at will were right there. So what if Sam falls? He could have just popped it right back open, or opened it at his convenience. I mean, they're supposed to be keys and keys open doors for two way traffic -

I don't know about standing on the edge, but Michael wasn't there when the cage was opened, so he might not have known how it opened or closed or how the keys worked.  Gabriel did, but Gabriel had been on earth a long time, so we don't know how he found out about the keys. I'm also guessing that the keys were a one way ticket? That it maybe could lock Lucifer back in, but maybe not get him out, (like a roach motel) because otherwise, the angels just could've somehow found a way to spring the horsemen to get the rings and gotten Lucifer out that way, rather than the whole have Dean break the first seal, and wait for all of the other seals to be broken etc.

I'm pretty much betting that throwing Lucifer in was easier (relatively) than getting him back out.

[Airmid]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't know about standing on the edge, but Michael wasn't there when the cage was opened, so he might not have known how it opened or closed or how the keys worked.  Gabriel did, but Gabriel had been on earth a long time, so we don't know how he found out about the keys. I'm also guessing that the keys were a one way ticket? That it maybe could lock Lucifer back in, but maybe not get him out, (like a roach motel) because otherwise, the angels just could've somehow found a way to spring the horsemen to get the rings and gotten Lucifer out that way, rather than the whole have Dean break the first seal, and wait for all of the other seals to be broken etc.

I'm pretty much betting that throwing Lucifer in was easier (relatively) than getting him back out.

 

Michael built the Cage. And no where do they say it was a one way ticket. The seals were already broken and what was stopping Dean from just using them all over again was his promise to Sam to not do stupid things that would risk the world to save him. 

The whole key thing was really dropped and in reality Dean holding keys to the most dangerous place in creation should have been more of a thing. I would think the first time around the safety seals would have had to be broken - later on Cas was able to drag Sam's body from there at the least, let alone a witch being able to rig a situation where one could speak to Lucifer. Even if the horseman rings could have been used to open the Cage, players such as Death would not be so forthcoming with aid in that matter and as they were only beholden to Lucifer, well, I doubt they would find a good reason to help heaven to let their unwanted master out.

I don't actually have a problem with the rings being a key to send Lucifer back. I do have a problem with it not being a well thought out solution to this problem. Nor having an ancient celestial being think his best bet for stopping the human his brother was currently inhabiting from jumping to hell was to run over there himself. Regardless of anything else - if Michael knew all the ins and outs of the place, if the keys actually operated as true keys or just one way, etc - what the hell happened to a hand flick? Michael should have been able to bat Sam over three counties before the kid could blink and at least avoid the gaping hell hole.

And I think that's one of my problems - you have these really ancient creatures that should be able to do things but can't because plot. There's no reason why Michael would chill out there and let himself even be dragged down except the plot demands it. The writers are incapable of making any angel not a dick, and Michael as the Viceroy of heaven was underwhelming power wise. 

Which is the crux of my problems with that episode - how they got from point A to point B. I don't even have a problem with the meaning of the car or that seeing it helped Sam take control to not throttle Dean to death. What I would have liked however was if they had taken out all of Chuck's narration outside of the start (and maybe the ending - wasn't too fond of the ending there) and shown the boys at least talking about it, if not using early flashbacks or maybe even cutting room floor footage to show bonding with each other in that car. If you want Michael in the pit - fine - but at least get him there in a better manner that isn't stupidity. He should have been more terrifying than Lucifer power wise but I would have been impressed if he could have correctly smote a kitten by the end of it. 

Actually it would have been interesting if part of the reason Bobby and Cas were hanging out there was to draw a holy oil circle and either Sam or (gimpy) Dean lit it on fire and then send the archangels to hell. Given the meaning of circles compared to just dousing Michael in holy fire I could see his apprehension at not crossing the line. Even have Michael try to barter with Dean till the end with Dean having to take an active role for the first time in the whole episode and not save Sam but choose everything else. 

But alas...

At the beginning of the season they did show Lucifer as being underhanded and clever in getting what he wanted. He was at the disadvantage when he first came up. He sweet talked a man into letting him be a vessel, he did a lot of things to manipulate Sam's mind and even in the end we find out how much sway demons had on his life. He used his horseman to get Sam to drink blood again and when that didn't pan out, used them to break Sam.

And we know what about Michael? Not a lot, outside of him being a dick. Which we can just assume because angel. The biggest angel of them all and he's in the background - which would be fine if he was doing things but he wasn't. At the end of the day the Winchester family doomed itself through bad choices freely. 

These are the problems I had with that entire episode back when it aired and they haven't much changed. Like I said, the basic concepts I don't have an issue with but when you have Chuck at the end spouting stuff about family sounds like a self righteous douche because he couldn't give one hot damn about his first children suffering for eternity. Or Sam, really. Or Adam. Or about any of them suffering later on.

I hate you Guck. 

[catrox14]

AFAIK,  Chuck made the Cage and the 600 seal security system after Lucifer started making demons in Hell, which happened after Chuck ordered Michael to cast Lucifer into Hell after he refused to love humanity. AFAIR, Michael thought he had to kill Lucifer because that's what Chuck wanted.

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

AFAIK,  Chuck made the Cage and the 600 seal security system after Lucifer started making demons in Hell, which happened after Chuck ordered Michael to cast Lucifer into Hell after he refused to love humanity. AFAIR, Michael thought he had to kill Lucifer because that's what Chuck wanted.

IIRC there's a point where it's mentioned Michael built the Cage, or had a hand in it, but honestly I can't be asked to dig for it today. 

Otherwise - yes, he had to kill Lucifer because he thought God wanted him to and he was the most devoted to God. Which just adds into how messed up Guck was to ditch everything, leaving Michael/archangels with a vague prophecy and then seemingly commanding his oldest creation to kill his second oldest.

Just...yuck.

Regardless of which, even if Michael was the stupidest thing ever, that still doesn't excuse why he didn't bat Sam two states over while he had Lucifer on lock down instead of standing by a gaping hell hole. Or you know, just killing them. That works too. They're supposed to met and fight, no one said it was fair and I doubt either would trust the other to be actually fair. Especially since Michael was in the less reliable vessel you'd think he'd just take the upper hand and stabbity stab Sam. 

*Wishfully thinking for non-soulless Sam arcs (due to massive writer inconsistency) and never having Lucifer on the show again*

 

 

* I still like Mark P - just not with the writing he's getting here - just wanted to be clear on that :)

[Katy M]

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 10:02 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I'm sure there's instances where this doesn't exactly match up, but my understanding is,  when being possessed by either demon or angel, the host remains until the body dies. Meg, the girl, in S1 was still inside until Meg, the demon, was exorcised and her body, being so broken, died. Cass still had Jimmy with him until the end of S5 when Lucifer killed him--and as we saw later, Jimmy was released to Heaven.  

However, considering that it's completely illogical that Micheal is still in the cage in any form at this point, I'm willing to go with either Adam was never in the cage or was released from it long ago:

Why is it illogical that he's in the cage?  How on earth would he have gotten out?

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 8:05 PM, Airmid said:

So back to Adam. Sam and Dean were in front of Guck*. When Kevin was shown to them why didn't one of them say "Hey, that's great and everything and we want the prophet in heaven but what about our brother? The one trapped in hell?" There's really no excuse for why they choose Kevin over Adam and even if the actor for Adam wasn't available they could have done some hand waving like saying he was released long ago, was never there, Michael needs him to not go totally nutso, whatever. 

They didn't choose Kevin over Adam.  Adam wasn't even there.  they had nothing to do with each other.

[Pondlass1]

The thrill has almost gone for me. I'll watch for Jensen/Dean because that character is the lone standout in terms of interest and kick ass.  But season 11 and especially season 12 have almost killed the love for me.

Nothing fresh, nothing new. Characters all going in circles doing the same stuff over and over. Nothing sticks. They stumble from one perilous dilemma to the next with little consequence or follow up.  Adversaries are presented as powerful and scary, only to be watered down and fizzled out once writers get stuck in a plot corner.

I wish I could summon some excitement about the new season... But it's all probably going to be same shit different day.

Supernatural is past its sell-by date. That's my unpopular opinion ? Sob:::

[Myrelle]

19 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Supernatural is past its sell-by date. That's my unpopular opinion ? Sob:::

I'm going to have a party when it ends. S12 and the spoilers for 13 concerning Dean, more than anything ever before, has made me feel this way. So bitter right now.

[ILoveReading]

In my UO, I think the relationship between Sam and Cas has always felt forced.   When Cas is effected by something we never really see Sam show that much concern, or that much joy when he comes back.   Sam even called Cas and it. 

Plus, its kind of hypocritical for Sam to bond with Cas after accusing Dean of liking and trusting Cas more than him. 

[Bessie]

35 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

In my UO, I think the relationship between Sam and Cas has always felt forced. 

 

Table for two! Actually, I don’t think Castiel has much of a relationship with any character other than Dean, which I believe was a big mistake on the part of the writers and largely a function of fan service. 

[Diane]

My UO is my life is way too busy to watch a show that i only want to complain about or that I can't stand most of the characters. 

[Aeryn13]

At this point I consider Dabb the worst Big Bad the show has ever had. I hate everything he is doing to every character he is doing it to, because it`s not like the ones he pimps fare any better, they just get all the more obnoxious.    

And IMO while Dean is in the "hate" and Sam in the "love" category for him, I believe Cas is in the "no idea" category which is why the character goes all over the place and back again. Before starting the cycle. Not that much better either.  

Edited October 10, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Jeddah]

13 minutes ago, Diane said:

My UO is my life is way too busy to watch a show that i only want to complain about or that I can't stand most of the characters. 

I agree! My UO is that I really love this show! I like the characters, the plot lines, the actors, the longevity, and, yes, I even like the writing.

[Diane]

Just now, Jeddah said:

I agree! My UO is that I really love this show! I like the characters, the plot lines, the actors, the longevity, and, yes, I even like the writing.

Me too.

[catrox14]

I think Mary's Resurrection is one of the  worst story arcs this show has ever concocted. It's both over and underwritten. It's affected everything about the show and IMO has done nothing to help advance any character. Mary was a good character who was fully human to both her children before she was resurrected. She was already a badass Hunter and a complicated character when she was 19 and made a choice she regretted. She knew she wanted out of hunting and didnt want her children raised that way. So by having her continue to hunt for a year after Dean was born was illogical and especially that 3 years later she can't figure out that flicking lights in her house might be trouble and the thing that came for her deal? 

There is nothing for me to root for with Mary.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

  3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Hey, maybe we’ll both get lucky and both Dean and Cas will get killed off in a rather painful manner in the series finale. Then everyone can be happy since I’ll be rid of overly controlling and sanctimonious Dean and you’ll be rid of ineffective and whiny Cas ;)

Except then we'd wind up with no one but self-righteous and self-pitying Sam, with no one to complain about (or to). :)

[gonzosgirrl]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Mary's Resurrection is one of the  worst story arcs this show has ever concocted. It's both over and underwritten. It's affected everything about the show and IMO has done nothing to help advance any character. Mary was a good character who was fully human to both her children before she was resurrected. She was already a badass Hunter and a complicated character when she was 19 and made a choice she regretted. She knew she wanted out of hunting and didnt want her children raised that way. So by having her continue to hunt for a year after Dean was born was illogical and especially that 3 years later she can't figure out that flicking lights in her house might be trouble and the thing that came for her deal? 

There is nothing for me to root for with Mary.

I feel like the character was written in one shade of crayon.

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Except then we'd wind up with no one but self-righteous and self-pitying Sam, with no one to complain about (or to). :)

Oh, the horror. The horror! :P

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Except then we'd wind up with no one but self-righteous and self-pitying Sam, with no one to complain about (or to). :)

Now see...I was thinking winding up with no one but Sam was okay with me.  :)  

But then, he'd probably go hook up with Angry Lady again...(excuse me while I turn my head.  I think I just made myself sick. ;) )

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Except then we'd wind up with no one but self-righteous and self-pitying Sam, with no one to complain about (or to). :)

With the way the character has been set up over now 12 years, I truly don`t see how Sam narratively would work without someone to blame it on when something doesn`t work out. Someone who doesn`t fight being blamed as most sane people would. 

Acting-wise, I don`t even think Jared is bad but for me, bad for the writing on this show. There are other actors on other shows who I believe are far more limited but I enjoy their performances as those characters more because it may fit the character - a really green actor can sometimes work well for a character who is supposed to be really naive and young and inexperiences, art imitates life then. Or their limitations fit the character type or whatnot. 

On SPN I find the lines really bad for the most part. Which is why Jensen`s biggest strength (for me) aka softening that writing really works for me. It is the only thing that saves a lot of lines and character work. Jared does the opposite, he plays the lines straight. Actually, he shares that with Sam Smith and IMO it is an outlook problem. I listen to the interviews and go "of course, no wonder that character is what it is". 

I would have to see him, Jared, in something different with favourable writing for his strength, to me that is mimicry. And yes, I have seen other projects but bland stuff like Friday the 13th and so on doesn`t count. I mean still a role with some meat on its bones.         

Edited October 10, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Katy M]

I don't know if this is unpopular, but while there are some characters I might not be crazy about, I think SPN does a great job of casting for the most part.  I think all of the regulars and semi-regulars do a great job.  And most of the guest stars are good.  I think my only two complaints would be Julia Maxwell (I feel like that's not quite right so--Eve).  I felt like the only emotion she could portray well was fear, which she only needed in her first and last scenes.  And Andrea Barr is very wooden.  Oh, and the lady that Crowley possessed in Out of the Darkness. There may have been some other one-shots here and there, but overall, I really enjoy the acting on this show.

[Diane]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't know if this is unpopular, but while there are some characters I might not be crazy about, I think SPN does a great job of casting for the most part.  I think all of the regulars and semi-regulars do a great job.  And most of the guest stars are good.  I think my only two complaints would be Julia Maxwell (I feel like that's not quite right so--Eve).  I felt like the only emotion she could portray well was fear, which she only needed in her first and last scenes.  And Andrea Barr is very wooden.  Oh, and the lady that Crowley possessed in Out of the Darkness. There may have been some other one-shots here and there, but overall, I really enjoy the acting on this show.

I don't think that is unpopular, those who enjoy it are just less vocal. 

[Whimsy]

Tons of posts have been hidden because many posters veered way into the bitch vs jerk territory.  Also, remember REPORT don't ENGAGE.  I feel like we have to tell this to you way too frequently. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

At this point I consider Dabb the worst Big Bad the show has ever had. I hate everything he is doing to every character he is doing it to, because it`s not like the ones he pimps fare any better, they just get all the more obnoxious.    

And IMO while Dean is in the "hate" and Sam in the "love" category for him, I believe Cas is in the "no idea" category which is why the character goes all over the place and back again. Before starting the cycle. Not that much better either.  

+1 (million). Dabb is the worst thing to ever happen to this show. Most especially to Dean, but as you say, others are not served well in different ways. My wish is that he'd go off with the Wayward Whatevers and leave the show to someone who is interested in writing/wrangling about the Winchesters/TFW in character and with some regard for canon.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

It seems my unpopular opinion is that, so far at least, Dabb ain't so bad.  There are things I wish were better, but I haven't seen enough of the show under his leadership to say that he is the absolute worst.  

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It seems my unpopular opinion is that, so far at least, Dabb ain't so bad.  There are things I wish were better, but I haven't seen enough of the show under his leadership to say that he is the absolute worst.  

Agreed! Carver was far, far, far worse for me! He’s somewhere closer to Gamble IMO. He definitely has his weaknesses, but he also has things he gets right.

[AwesomO4000]

My unpopular opinions are that 1) That except for the questionable Sam joining the BMoL all "yay," and lying about it, I've otherwise appreciated the lack of brother angst Dabb has given us 2) Dabb's first season, though it had some problems, was for me, much better than what appeared - to me - to be the almost contempt Carver seemed to show for what went before on this show when he took over. In my opinion, Carver thumbed his nose at the great set up he was given and instead decided to remake the characters and the show the way he saw fit.. and failed at both, imo, turning the characters into jerks and the tone and plots into angsty soap opera. 3) I'm looking forward to next season, think the AU storyline has potential, and think Dabb will turn things around 4) Don't think Dabb hates Dean at all. And 5)...

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

In my UO, I think the relationship between Sam and Cas has always felt forced.   When Cas is effected by something we never really see Sam show that much concern, or that much joy when he comes back.   Sam even called Cas and it. 

Plus, its kind of hypocritical for Sam to bond with Cas after accusing Dean of liking and trusting Cas more than him. 

I think, based on their shared experiences, that Sam and Castiel actually have more of a mutual relationship than Dean and Castiel. It's one that evolved over time from contentious (on Castiel's part anyway) to understanding each other. I disagree that Sam shows no concern for Castiel. Sam's the one who called out to and caught Castiel when he was falling in "The Song Remains the Sam" and was the one who didn't write Cas off and thought he was "one of us" in "Meet the New Boss." Sam was worried about leaving Castiel behind in "The Born-Again Identity." It was Sam who noticed something was wrong with Castiel in season 8. I thought they bonded fairly well in "First Born."

And in my opinion, it's only hypocritical if Sam loves Castiel more than Dean or trusts him more than Dean - which is not happening. We saw that last season when Sam turned on Castiel's GPS to track him. Part of their mutual relationship is that Sam understands Castiel's weaknesses and vica versa.

Will they ever be as close as Dean and Castiel? No, but I think the Dean and Castiel relationship is more leaned towards Dean as the dominant one whereas for me Sam and Castiel are more on equal footing / understanding with each other. They've both screwed up and disappointed Dean and understand how that can happen and how that feels.

But I realize that I'm in the minority on this one... and I'm okay with that.

[catrox14]

All the showrunners have had their strengths and weaknesses.

Sam was torn apart in the SL in s4 under Kripke that gets hailed as being a great season (which I mostly agree with because it had some great episodes) so I'm always kind of curious why it's not condemned as much as Carver with s8 Sam. Sam was running around doing stupid things in s4 out of desperation because Dean went to Hell, and I think no one wanted Sam to do those kinds of stupid things again AFAIK, so in s8, Carver made sure Sam didn't. He found a GF and had a life. I get that the issues are because Sam didn't look for Dean but I mean he didn't have Sam doing something stupid again either and he gave Sam the trials which was heroic and angsty.

Carver did a number on Dean is s9 but it was hella interesting and I was engaged by the MoC.  It hurt my soul but it hurt so good.

[auntvi]

19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think, based on their shared experiences, that Sam and Castiel actually have more of a mutual relationship than Dean and Castiel. It's one that evolved over time from contentious (on Castiel's part anyway) to understanding each other.

IMO they got a slower start because Castiel initially thought Sam was an abomination. ;) By season 8 they understood each other better and cared about each other. As far as no joy, well Sam hasn't experienced much joy over anything in the last several years!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

All the showrunners have had their strengths and weaknesses.

True.  I can just think of more weaknesses re: Carver than I can strengths.  :)

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam was torn apart in the SL in s4 under Kripke that gets hailed as being a great season (which I mostly agree with because it had some great episodes) so I'm always kind of curious why it's not condemned as much as Carver with s8 Sam.

Both are pretty much tied for my least favorite season.   (And maybe 9.  (9 was pretty bad, from what I recall.))  But that's probably also an unpopular opinion.  :)

For me though, it's also the ripple-effect after the season ended.  After S4, when Sam was pretty well 'redeemed' (for lack of a better word) the awfulness of S4 Sam was not really brought up again.  But S8 Sam-awfulness?  Mentioned over and over and over.  And over.  'Sam hit a dog'.  I'm pretty sure I remember that line even in S11.  If the trials were meant to 'redeem' Sam for that, then let it rest already.  

Edited October 10, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

For me though, it's also the ripple-effect after the season ended.  After S4, when Sam was pretty well 'redeemed' (for lack of a better word) the awfulness of S4 Sam was not really brought up again.  But S8 Sam-awfulness?  Mentioned over and over and over.  And over.  'Sam hit a dog'.  I'm pretty sure I remember that line even in S11.  If the trials were meant to 'redeem' Sam for that, then let it rest already.  

I legitimately don't remember Sam hitting a dog being brought up again after s8 until s11 by ....Lucifer who was screwing with Sam's head again.

I'll never really understand why Lucifer's opinion about Sam's behavior in s8 is supposed to be taken as a condemnation of Sam. Like it's LUCIFER. He was trying to manipulate Sam into saying yes to him again by trying to guilt trip him for having a life in s8, not looking for Dean, and if he just said yes to him then he could be free of all his guilt by killing Amara or something, which Sam had already done the trials and saved Dean from the mark in s10. I legit think Dabb was trying to rehab Sam but did it in such a weird way that it's almost like Sam became a plot point for Lucifer in the guise of "character development". I mean honestly I'll never understand why the Devil chastising Sam was supposed to result in me being like "SEE, SAM, if Lucifer is telling you did it wrong, you should believe it".  I just don't get that whole thing TBH LOL 

Have I said how much I hate Lucifer being important to this show again

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I legitimately don't remember Sam hitting a dog being brought up again after s8 until s11

Dean said it in Fan Fiction - which was S10, I think?

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'll never really understand why Lucifer's opinion about Sam's behavior in s8 is supposed to be taken as a condemnation of Sam. Like it's LUCIFER. He was trying to manipulate Sam into saying yes to him again by trying to guilt trip him for having a life in s8, not looking for Dean, and if he just said yes to him then he could be free of all his guilt by killing Amara or something, which Sam had already done the trials and saved Dean from the mark in s10. I legit think Dabb was trying to rehab Sam but did it in such a weird way that it's almost like Sam became a plot point for Lucifer in the guise of "character development". I mean honestly I'll never understand why the Devil chastising Sam was supposed to result in me being like "SEE, SAM, if Lucifer is telling you did it wrong, you should believe it".

I think it's because - I probably can't explain this properly, but I'll try - it must be REALLY awful if the flippin Devil is telling you you did something wrong.  Kind of like a radical terrorist organization condemning another radical terrorist for their methods.  If Al-Queda says your bad and distances themselves, you must be really awful. 

[FlickChick]

What I dislike the most about Dabb's approach to the show, is that by trying to minimize/eliminate the brother angst, he has turned his focus on every other character on the show - including guest stars. Last season was the story of Mary, the BMOL, Lucifer, Spawnifer and newly introduced super!demons. Add a side of Crowley/Cas buddy comedy/carousing/whatever and there's little time to worry about the Winchester dynamic. I have never been as disappointed in a season as a whole, as I have in S12. And even though I don't read spoilers, I am getting the impression that "Dabb's Great Vision" will continue, and perhaps, get even worse in this viewer's estimation. So give me the Carver days when at least the stories focused on the Winchesters. And yes, I know that the guys have managed to get more time off, but at this point, the writers should be able to handle it better than I have witnessed. JMO

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

All the showrunners have had their strengths and weaknesses.

Sam was torn apart in the SL in s4 under Kripke that gets hailed as being a great season (which I mostly agree with because it had some great episodes) so I'm always kind of curious why it's not condemned as much as Carver with s8 Sam. Sam was running around doing stupid things in s4 out of desperation because Dean went to Hell, and I think no one wanted Sam to do those kinds of stupid things again AFAIK, so in s8, Carver made sure Sam didn't. He found a GF and had a life. I get that the issues are because Sam didn't look for Dean but I mean he didn't have Sam doing something stupid again either and he gave Sam the trials which was heroic and angsty.

Edited to fix veering into Bitch / Jerk territory. (similar thoughts covered there in other posts)

Basic idea was:

While I agree with you that season 4 had some good writing at times, I don't really like it so much comparatively, exactly for the reasons you give (and that I found season 4 relentlessly grim). When I rank SPN seasons as to favorites, season 4 is in the bottom 3rd for me, below season 7, season 6, and season 11, even season 10. However, Kripke made up for it for me in season 5. For me, that didn't happen with Carver.

Basically for me, Sam got redemption with Kripke in season 5. I didn't think he did with Carver, and for me that makes a big difference as to why I view season 8 less favorably.

Quote

Carver did a number on Dean is s9 but it was hella interesting and I was engaged by the MoC.  It hurt my soul but it hurt so good.

Dean's story was interesting, I agree. And at least Dean got a fairly good redemption story out of it in the end, too.

Edited October 11, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Dean said it in Fan Fiction - which was S10, I think?

Ah, right. I guess to me that was more of a jokey thing like so much of Dean's exposition in FF. But I tend to treat that episode as a one off that doesn't really inform canon, but that's just how I process it it anyway. So that's once in 3 years before Lucifer's mention. I guess that doesn't seem to me anyway like just hammering it over and over. But that's just me. Others will disagree :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Others will disagree :)

Well, it is the Unpopular Opinions thread! :)

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ah, right. I guess to me that was more of a jokey thing like so much of Dean's exposition in FF. But I tend to treat that episode as a one off that doesn't really inform canon, but that's just how I process it it anyway. So that's once in 3 years before Lucifer's mention. I guess that doesn't seem to me anyway like just hammering it over and over.

I think it was mentioned somewhere in season 9, too, but I dislike season 9, so I don't know many details about it.

And I think that the fact that it was a joke was actually pointing fun at how bad/stupid the storyline was. And how ridiculous it was that Sam just "hit a dog" and ignored the world afterwards. So not only did they give Sam an awful storyline, the writers then made fun of what an awful storyline it was rather than actually, you know, fixing the storyline when they had a chance to.

So despite my love of "Fanfiction," I found the jab a bit insulting myself. "Isn't it amusing we gave Sam such an awful storyline?" No, no it isn't, in my opinion.

[shang yiet]

My UO is that none of the writers hate Dean. I don't think any of them have been biased against Dean in any way. 

And I think Sam and Cas have built up a nice friendship brick by brick.

Edited October 10, 2017 by shang yiet

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Dean said it in Fan Fiction - which was S10, I think?

I think it's because - I probably can't explain this properly, but I'll try - it must be REALLY awful if the flippin Devil is telling you you did something wrong.  Kind of like a radical terrorist organization condemning another radical terrorist for their methods.  If Al-Queda says your bad and distances themselves, you must be really awful. 

Sorry I was being more rhetorical than anything with that.

My point was more why would Sam, with his history with Lucifer, listen to anything Lucifer said about this, though? To me, it  was both eyerolling logic fail for Sam and also annoyingly manipulative to me as an audience member because I would never side with Lucifer on this point even if he was giving facts to support his manipulation. Facts without context mean nothing. Sam still said, "No" so what was the point of the whole thing? It was just a long ass clip show that was to show that Sam had more strength now, which I already knew? That Sam would have been possibly tempted by Lucifer to say yes because Lucifer is laying a guilt trip on him? Bah. HATE LOL

23 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But Dean got a redemption story out of it in the end.

What was Dean's redemption?

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It was just a long ass clip show that was to show that Sam had more strength now, which I already knew? That Sam would have been possibly tempted by Lucifer to say yes because Lucifer is laying a guilt trip on him? Bah. HATE LOL

I thought it was to show that Sam was no longer tempted by having to be the one to save the world - which was what Lucifer was trying to offer. The guilt over Dean was something Sam realized in spite of what Lucifer was trying to show. Lucifer was trying to show Sam that he had become "soft" by his guilt over not looking for Dean, but Sam realized that he should have told Dean he felt badly because of how it affected Dean... so that's what Sam did.

I thought it was long overdue... and something Carver should have done long ago, but hadn't bothered to do for Sam until then (and I suspect that Dabb might've had some influence there).

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought it was long overdue... and something Carver should have done long ago, but hadn't bothered to do for Sam until then (and I suspect that Dabb might've had some influence there).

Yeah, I don't think Carver would have ever done it had he not been planning on leaving the show.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought it was long overdue... and something Carver should have done long ago, but hadn't bothered to do for Sam until then (and I suspect that Dabb might've had some influence there)

To me an apology is something like 'I realize my actions harmed you. What I did hurt you and I am sorry for the hurt I caused you'. Like saying the words "I'm sorry. I apologize for my actions".  I don't mean this in a b v j way at all. No matter who that was directed at, Sam said  "I should have looked for you more. I shouldn't have stopped. And I never forgave myself for that'. IMO, that made it more about Sam's guilt causing him his own pain, rather than the acknowledgment of the harm done to the other person. Which leaves me trying to understand what Dabb was going for there. For my part, I'm probably overly harsh on this area of "non apology apologies" because I have had too many people in my life try to pass those off as apologies. 

[AwesomO4000]

50 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What was Dean's redemption?

Dean got to be a major factor in saving the world, heroically having to be willing to potentially sacrifice himself to fix a problem that his stupid little brother had carelessly caused. Again.

Rest of this moved to the Bitch/Jerk thread, because I realize now it belongs there.

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

To me an apology is something like 'I realize my actions harmed you. What I did hurt you and I am sorry for the hurt I caused you'. Like saying the words "I'm sorry. I apologize for my actions".  I don't mean this in a b v j way at all. No matter who that was directed at, Sam said  "I should have looked for you more. I shouldn't have stopped. And I never forgave myself for that'. IMO, that made it more about Sam's guilt causing him his own pain, rather than the acknowledgment of the harm done to the other person. Which leaves me trying to understand what Dabb was going for there. For my part, I'm probably overly harsh on this area of "non apology apologies" because I have had too many people in my life try to pass those off as apologies. 

Taken to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread, just in case.

Edited October 10, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean got to be a major factor in saving the world, heroically having to be willing to potentially sacrifice himself to fix a problem that his stupid little brother had carelessly caused. Again.

Ah, Okay. I guess I didn't see that was redemption for the MoC but more that he was conscripted into it because Amara had a hold on him and no one else could get near her. I think both of them helped defeat her. Sam doesn't rally the troops they don't come up with the solution but drink themselves into oblivion. At least that's how I see it. But I can see why you see it as redemption for Dean. Just a long time after. I was thinking you meant the Mark was itself some kind of redemption so I was confused! Sorry!

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking you meant the Mark was itself some kind of redemption so I was confused! Sorry!

Oh no, I meant saving the world... and yes Dean was the only one who could stop Amara, but he was still willing to do it... and really that's not all that much different than Death saying that Sam was the only one who could put Lucifer back into the cage. They were both conscripted into it in a way.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam doesn't rally the troops they don't come up with the solution but drink themselves into oblivion.

Taken to the "BvsJ" thread

[Airmid]

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 4:47 AM, Katy M said:

They didn't choose Kevin over Adam.  Adam wasn't even there.  they had nothing to do with each other.

 

I was vague in my comment and meant the writers, not the characters themselves choosing to use Kevin as the miracle instead of Adam.

The main problem I had was that they had  blood suffering in hell, a guy claiming to be God in front of them preforming a sign and not once is their brother lost in the pit with an apparently insane archangel ever brought up. Not even when Michael was declared unfit to fight did either Winchester say, "Hey, ya know we got a brother down there. Maybe can we do something for that at least even if the end of the world is neigh?"

And by the time of this episode, fans had been asking about Adam for years. It would have been a good excuse to use God to get rid of that loose thread. The writers/show runner still skipped over it which is my problem with that scenario.

Sorry for the confusion there. :)

[Aeryn13]

accidentally posted in wrong thread, moving to Bitch/Jerk

Edited October 13, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Hanahope]

I’m not sure where to post this but I find it interesting that the show has god, angels, demons, heaven and hell, but doesn’t reference at all the various types of Christianity, Jewish, Muslim , etc.  or even mention Jesus, Mohamed or others.  The one witch in S11. Episode 22 wears a cross, but no mention that it means Christianity.   I presume it’s so it can be liked by all Abrahamic God believers, and not piss others off, but it really seems like a hole to me.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I’m not sure where to post this but I find it interesting that the show has god, angels, demons, heaven and hell, but doesn’t reference at all the various types of Christianity, Jewish, Muslim , etc.  or even mention Jesus, Mohamed or others.  The one witch in S11. Episode 22 wears a cross, but no mention that it means Christianity.   I presume it’s so it can be liked by all Abrahamic God believers, and not piss others off, but it really seems like a hole to me.

I think they use generic Abrahmic beliefs as starter dough and then make the rest up as they go.  Hey also are firmly in he camp of #believers supports power.  But by acknowledging Chuck as creator of the universe in S11, that's a pretty strong nod to Abrahmic 'lore'.  However the show has been really clear to steer this into 'this is th Supernatural universe' versus ours. I'd have to say S12's POTUS was clearly not our POTUS. 

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I’m not sure where to post this but I find it interesting that the show has god, angels, demons, heaven and hell, but doesn’t reference at all the various types of Christianity, Jewish, Muslim , etc.  or even mention Jesus, Mohamed or others.  The one witch in S11. Episode 22 wears a cross, but no mention that it means Christianity.   I presume it’s so it can be liked by all Abrahamic God believers, and not piss others off, but it really seems like a hole to me.

I'm actually glad that they haven't done that. With the depictions of most gods on this show and Chuck as God who just doesn't give a shit about what he created I shudder to think of what they would if they decided to go into specifics regarding Christianity.

[auntvi]

Unpopular opinion: I don't mind Amelia. She's not my favorite character, but I don't hate her.

[nightwing877]

Unpopular opinion: I liked Jo way more than Charlie.