Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, IMO Dean dropped some pretty heavy hints that he thought John was dead. And it was pretty reasonable for him to be worried about that, given the circumstances of their lives and John's disappearance. So I think that's a different scenario than him being upset about Sam going to school.

I'm pretty sympathetic to Dean being upset about Sam going to school, though, too. He seems to keep framing it as Sam leaving him to carry on "the family business" and take care of John alone, which even under ordinary circumstances would be kind of fraught, but which has the added pressure of how EXTREMELY isolated their lives were/are as hunters. In the first season, Dean describes himself as a freak at least a couple times, and IMO that's a perfectly fair thing for him to do because their lives are super weird and not really that understandable to outsiders. And on top of that, they were sworn to secrecy anyway.

I'm not unsympathetic to Dean being upset that Sam went to school.  I'm unsympathetic to the fact that he kept throwing it in Sam's face for year's afterwards.

I'm not unsympathetic to Dean wanting Mary to spend time with them and be more like a mother.  I just think she doesn't deserve to be yelled at over it, or get snide comments like whatever he said at the end of Family Feud (before the big reveal) when she did come to visit.  Kind of reminded me how when I would visit my grandmother she would spend the whole time complaining how nobody ever visited her.  Didn't make me want to come back, although of course I did.

Yes, I've decided the John comparison does not really hold up.  Just trying to show a pattern of how Dean expects his family to stick together forever.  Which is fine to want.  But, it's not really fine to expect or lay guilt trips over when it doesn't happen.

[catrox14]

I don't think I would define any of the Winchesters as clingy

IIRC,  Dean mentioned the hunt in New Orleans which Sam teased him about John letting him hunt in his own which seemed to indicate  to me Dean was hunting separate from John fairly often.  Dean  only sought Sam's help to find John because John had been incommunicado for longer than their check in system. I remember John sent  Dean orders for a hunt that Sam didn't want to go on so they could go find John instead which lead to their  fight in Asylum over Sam thinking Dean just followed Johns orders  blindly.

I think the situation with Mary is completely different because his dead  Mom was resurrected and plopped back into his life without warning nor preparation.

I thought Mary, Dean and Sam only went on the one hunt  in the Foundry which went sideways and Mary buzzed out as soon as that hunt was over because she could not  handle seeing her grown children because she could only see her little boys in her mind. Mary rejected Dean and Sam and IMO she hasn't really let them back in.

[Aeryn13]

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I just think she doesn't deserve to be yelled at over it, or get snide comments like whatever he said at the end of Family Feud 

I think Mary got called very little on her shit, unfortunately. And then she got her way entirely. Noone seems to be bothering her anymore, least of all Dean. 

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think Mary got called very little on her shit, unfortunately. And then she got her way entirely. Noone seems to be bothering her anymore, least of all Dean. 

And I think besides the lying to them about the demon hunt (which don't get me wrong, was superhuge and did deserve yelling and if they never wanted to work with her again, they would be more than justified in that decision), she hasn't done any "shit."

[ILoveReading]

56 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And I think besides the lying to them about the demon hunt (which don't get me wrong, was superhuge and did deserve yelling and if they never wanted to work with her again, they would be more than justified in that decision), she hasn't done any "shit."

Looking at the confrontation
 

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"I'm playing 30 years of catch up here."

"And we're not.  How do you think this is been for us.  We're Your son's You've been gone.  Our whole lives, you've been gone. 

 

Mary being back isn't the result of Dean making a deal or some kind of arrangement.  Amara took it upon herself.  Dean didn't ask for it.  He was thrown for as much as a loop as Mary was.  She was as much a stranger to her sons as they were to her.  We saw Sam and Dean make an effort.  Mary tried for a week and then took off.  As I said, I understand needing space but her efforts to stay connected were  superficial  like texting (which she took a week to respond.  Landlines still do exist so no charger isn't an excuse).   We know she went to great lengths to reconnect to her past.  She even risked a border crossing to touch base with someone she hadn't seen in years.

Asa would have been as much a stranger to her as Sam and Dean.  A kid she barely knew, but she can put the effort in for him.

Their POV's might be different but its as hard on Sam and Dean as it is on Mary.  I think this is what Dean is very much pointing out.

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"You said that you needed time.  No you said you need space.  So we gave you your space."

Also true.   Mary told them at the end of The Foundry this is what she needed.   "I just need a little time."  Sam and Dean were hurt but they didn't try to stop her or guilt trip her into staying.  They tried to make effort. 

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"But you didn't need just space, no you needed space from us.

"That's not true."

 

It is true, though.  Mary herself said she needed to get away to clear her head because every moment with her in the bunker reminded her of the time she lost with John and the memories of her little boys.  Not sure how that is anything other than her needing space from grown Sam and Dean.
 

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"Dean... I'm trying"

"How about for once you just try and be a mom."

"I'm am your mother, but I am not just a mom and you are not a child.

I never was."

 

This is probably the part of the speech that is the most open to interpretation.  Mary seemed to think Dean was saying, cook, clean and tuck me in.  But I personally think that Dean pointing out he was never a child showed he didn't have that and wasn't really asking for that.  Just that Mary be their mom by being around them.  Not in clingy way, but just be part of our lives way.  That's my biggest issue, is that Mary didn't even try.
 

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"So between us and them..."

"It's not like that..."

"Yeah, Mary it is.  And you made your choice and there's the door."

 

It does seem very much like that because Mary's actions support it being like that.   She would be too tired to go on hunting trips with her sons but was at the British Men of Letters beck and call.  Protecting the colt and her relationship with the men of letters took priority over her sons and she was willing to let Cas die over it.  She joined at the end of ep 9 (I think) so its not just a lie about the mission, she was lying to them for weeks/months. (or however long that was show wise). When she showed up it was to confess and justify her actions.  The Brits had kidnapped and tortured Sam, where about to start in on Dean.  They weren't nice people from the start.  Even reaching out to them in The Raid seemed more about pimping the Brits and recruting them.

TL:DR- I don't think Dean's speech was just about calling Mary on her "shit."  I think he pointed out some hard uncomfortable truths Mary didn't want to hear.

Edited April 14, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

Sure, it's just as hard on Sam and Dean as it is on Mary. I never meant to imply otherwise. But, Dean had his say, which is fine and good, but Mary gets to do what she wants with that.  Doesn't make her a bad person, IMO.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Sure, it's just as hard on Sam and Dean as it is on Mary. I never meant to imply otherwise. But, Dean had his say, which is fine and good, but Mary gets to do what she wants with that.  Doesn't make her a bad person, IMO.

I did t say Mary was a bad person and neither is Dean for wanting a closer relationship with Mary.

IMO, this is much deeper than Dean gets his say. Dean watched Mary burn to death when he was 4. he was traumatized so much so that he didn't talk for a long time. He managed to adapt to life without his mother. And probably believed that the woman he loved and cared for would want to be with him at least for a little while  because she missed out on his entire life, but she  expressly stated that she had no interest in making up for that lost time. She couldn't because it was harmful to her.

Dean accepted  this thinking it would be a temporary situation. it turned out to be almost permanent.

So yes Dean gets a say but he still doesn't get to spend time with her except on HER terms, still. She is not making any attempt IMO to bond with them in a meaningful way. So Dean spoke up on that point.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Sure, it's just as hard on Sam and Dean as it is on Mary. I never meant to imply otherwise. But, Dean had his say, which is fine and good, but Mary gets to do what she wants with that.  Doesn't make her a bad person, IMO.

The issue I have with Mary is that she stated her rationale was to work with the BMoL to get rid of all the monsters so Sam and Dean can have a normal life.  So, without really getting to know them, she's decided that there is something wrong with their lives and she's going to change it for them.  If she doesn't want to be around them, then this is a weird application of parental prerogative.  And it definitely says to both Sam and Dean that she doesn't approve of their life.  

Dean was right when he said 'You said you needed time. No, you said you needed space.  But it wasn't space you needed, it was space away from US.' 

Mary says she wants to be 'Mom' but she's pretty clearly rejected them as individuals.  She's trying to change the world so THEY can change.  Even though both Sam and Dean have made it clear they've chosen this life and are content with that choice.  Mary has decided she knows better. And with her son making it clear that the rejection is hurting him, she continues. THAT's the issue I have   If Ketch was right (and I don't think he is) that Mary just likes killing things, then she needs to acknowledge that and stop pretending she's doing it for the boys.  More importantly, she would need to acknowledge that she respects their choice to live as hunters   She's never walked back what she said to Sam in the Raid (that she's hunting to kill all the monsters so the boys can have a different life).

Which leaves us with the distance issue  if Mary needs time and space for HER sake only, then why stay involved in hunting at all?  Why be IN her children's profession but stay away from them?  Do they have cooties? Personally, I think she once again has decided something for the boys. IMO, she's decided that she's going to likely die (and she wants to go back to her 'heaven') and doesn't want the boys to get too attached to her now.  She may also be subconsciously protecting her 'boys' as they are in heaven   Making sure she goes back to that idyllic time (in her mind).  I'm left with one of two options: she's either uncomfortable in their presence (i.e just doesn't want to see them) or she's protecting them from having a greater hurt when/if she dies.  The former is a negative judgement towards her children, the latter is denying them any agency in the relationship  

Bottom line: Mary has judged them and found their life something she doesn't approve.  She's keeping them distant because she either can't stand to see them as hunters or she doesn't want them upset when/if she dies.  To the boys, it feels pretty much a rejection of who they are.

And Dean is self-aware to know he just can't walk away.   The Raid proved that to him.  For many, the healthy choice would to be to avoid a disapproving parent.  That's not how Dean is wired.  

And IMO, Mary's choice to not get to know her boys means she doesn't really fully appreciate the active damage she's doing.  

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, SueB said:

The issue I have with Mary is that she stated her rationale was to work with the BMoL to get rid of all the monsters so Sam and Dean can have a normal life.  So, without really getting to know them, she's decided that there is something wrong with their lives and she's going to change it for them.  If she doesn't want to be around them, then this is a weird application of parental prerogative.  And it definitely says to both Sam and Dean that she doesn't approve of their life.  

Dean was right when he said 'You said you needed time. No, you said you needed space.  But it wasn't space you needed, it was space away from US.' 

Mary says she wants to be 'Mom' but she's pretty clearly rejected them as individuals.  She's trying to change the world so THEY can change.  Even though both Sam and Dean have made it clear they've chosen this life and are content with that choice.  Mary has decided she knows better. And with her son making it clear that the rejection is hurting him, she continues. THAT's the issue I have   If Ketch was right (and I don't think he is) that Mary just likes killing things, then she needs to acknowledge that and stop pretending she's doing it for the boys.  More importantly, she would need to acknowledge that she respects their choice to live as hunters   She's never walked back what she said to Sam in the Raid (that she's hunting to kill all the monsters so the boys can have a different life).

Which leaves us with the distance issue  if Mary needs time and space for HER sake only, then why stay involved in hunting at all?  Why be IN her children's profession but stay away from them?  Do they have cooties? Personally, I think she once again has decided something for the boys. IMO, she's decided that she's going to likely die (and she wants to go back to her 'heaven') and doesn't want the boys to get too attached to her now.  She may also be subconsciously protecting her 'boys' as they are in heaven   Making sure she goes back to that idyllic time (in her mind).  I'm left with one of two options: she's either uncomfortable in their presence (i.e just doesn't want to see them) or she's protecting them from having a greater hurt when/if she dies.  The former is a negative judgement towards her children, the latter is denying them any agency in the relationship  

Bottom line: Mary has judged them and found their life something she doesn't approve.  She's keeping them distant because she either can't stand to see them as hunters or she doesn't want them upset when/if she dies.  To the boys, it feels pretty much a rejection of who they are.

And Dean is self-aware to know he just can't walk away.   The Raid proved that to him.  For many, the healthy choice would to be to avoid a disapproving parent.  That's not how Dean is wired.  

And IMO, Mary's choice to not get to know her boys means she doesn't really fully appreciate the active damage she's doing.  

I'm not saying that Mary gets to make choices for Sam and Dean because she doesn't. She does get to make choices for herself, though.  And, in theory, no matter what the motivation, getting rid of all the monsters in the world would be a good thing. Did Sam and Dean check with other hunters before taking it upon themselves to close the gates of Hell?  No, they just decided to go ahead with that (until they changed their minds) and darn the consequences for everyone else.  Sam has said on more than one occasion that he doesn't want to be doing this for the rest of his life.  Yes, he wants to help people, but if the need for that help went away, IMO, he would be fine with that.  I'm not sure where that would leave Dean, though.  Because he likes helping people AND killing monsters.  I can think of at least twice when he said he was itching to kill something or itching for a hunt.

And, yes, I agree, I think Mary does want to be back in Heaven.  She was there for 10ish years.  Dean didn't ask for her to be brought back. But, she didn't ask it either.  I think she wanted to take Billie up on her offer or whatever in Celebrating the Life, but didn't because of Sam and Dean. Then, she offered to take one of their places in First Blood.  I think there was both the motivation to go back to Heaven and to save her kids. So, I don't think she's totally apathetic.  I think she's just tired, confused, and ready to be back in Heaven where all she had were happy memories. 

[trxr4kids]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

The issue I have with Mary is that she stated her rationale was to work with the BMoL to get rid of all the monsters so Sam and Dean can have a normal life.  So, without really getting to know them, she's decided that there is something wrong with their lives and she's going to change it for them.  If she doesn't want to be around them, then this is a weird application of parental prerogative.  And it definitely says to both Sam and Dean that she doesn't approve of their life.  

If I could like your post a hundred times I would. That is exactly my problem with Mary and that we don't know what she knows other than that info dump in the premiere. As far as we know she only knows the stats, if you will, of their lives without knowing that heaven and hell did and will continue to target her sons regardless of if the monsters are all eradicated. God left and pretty much said it's in your hands now for crying out loud and Lucifer's on the loose. They can never be out, they both accept that and are doing the best they can. She's made a decision about their futures and judgement of their lives without having all of the intel. It's mind boggling to me that she's willing to give the BMoL more of a benefit of the doubt or consideration and time than her sons.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I'm not saying that Mary gets to make choices for Sam and Dean because she doesn't. She does get to make choices for herself, though.  And, in theory, no matter what the motivation, getting rid of all the monsters in the world would be a good thing. Did Sam and Dean check with other hunters before taking it upon themselves to close the gates of Hell?  No, they just decided to go ahead with that (until they changed their minds) and darn the consequences for everyone else..

The boys didn't need permission from any one else to close the gates of Hell because there was no negative consequence to humanity for doing so. It wasn't genocide against the demons  because it wasn't going to kill demons. All it was going to do was banish them from the Earth and lock them away forever. And it wasn't going to kill the other monsters that roamed the Earth. So Hunters would still have something to Hunt . 

What was the damage to anyone other than the person doing the trials and the people Crowley was killing to stop them from completing the trials? That's why Dean said they didn't have to finish it. He said they had could find another way since they had Crowley on lockdown now.

The consequence to not finishing the trials is that demons continue roaming the Earth as before.. So nothing really changed. 

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Dean: Did you read anything else off the tablet before you stashed it?

Kevin: I read stuff about how to close the Gates of Hell. Forever.
Dean: Come again?

Kevin: Banish all demons off the face off the Earth. Lock them away forever. That could be important, right?

– Dean and Kevin Tran, 8.01 We Need to Talk About Kevin

I don't see that as comparable to the choices Mary is making to work with a group who is knowing using WMD's that torture a monster to death even those that have not killed a human.

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 Sam has said on more than one occasion that he doesn't want to be doing this for the rest of his life.  Yes, he wants to help people, but if the need for that help went away, IMO, he would be fine with that.  I'm not sure where that would leave Dean, though.  Because he likes helping people AND killing monsters.  I can think of at least twice when he said he was itching to kill something or itching for a hunt

Dean's mantra, which he spoke in the 2nd episode of the entire show, and which has literally never changed is

"SAVING people. Hunting THINGS". It was never "Helping People AND killing things".  Dean has SAVED hundreds if not thousands of lives in his life. He saved 400 people in one day on that plane.  Sure he was more black and white on monsters at first but he's clearly moved on that point.

I'm pretty sure Dean would be okay not hunting because he quit hunting for that year when he was with Lisa. His issue wasn't because he could no longer KILL monsters, his issue was that his brother was stuck in Hell and he couldn't get him out despite his best efforts.   Dean is not a psychopath who must KILL KILL to live or to get his rocks off or contain his whatever. Dean is not Dexter Morgan. 

Your comment does make he wonder if the inapt comparison the show keeps trying to drill home about Dean and Ketch is beginning to worm it's way into the audience given your concerns that Dean won't be okay if he can't kill (monsters or anything?). 

 

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I think she's just tired, confused, and ready to be back in Heaven where all she had were happy memories. 

If that is the case then the onus is on Mary to reach out to her boys for help and to just tell them she wants to go back instead of doing all these other things that hurt them more than if she told them she wanted to go back.  And it's also possible that Mary doesn't really KNOW if she wants to go back or not. 

But that's just more of poor writing for Mary because her rationales are totally unclear.

Edited April 14, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

because there was no negative consequence to humanity for doing so. It wasn't genocide against the demons  because it wasn't going to kill demons.

My original point is there wouldn't be any demon hunting for the demon hunters to do.  In that regard, Mary doesn't need permission, just like they didn't need permission.  However, I highly doubt there wouldn't have been negataive consequences.  They kept assuming that if they were going to close the gates of Hell, tha all the demons would get sucked in and closed in with it.  IMO, there was just as much chance of the ones on the outside staying on the outside and then being unable to be exorcised.  Plus, all the souls destined for Hell would have turned into angry spirits.

 

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean is not a psychopath who must KILL KILL to live or to get his rocks off or contain his whatever. Dean is not Dexter Morgan. 

I never said he was a psychopath. I said he liked killing things, or at least the second part of the family business--hunting things.  I stand by that.  Bloodlust is the best example that pops into my head.  But, you were the one who said that Mary shouldn't be trying to get rid of all the monsters so that Sam and Dean wouldn't have to hunt any more.

 

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And it's also possible that Mary doesn't really KNOW if she wants to go back or not. 

I would agree with that.  Mary probably doesn't 100% know what she wants which is why she's all over the place.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

My original point is there wouldn't be any demon hunting for the demon hunters to do.  In that regard, Mary doesn't need permission, just like they didn't need permission.  .

I don't think anyone said Mary needs the boys  permission to work with the BMOL. They can't stop her if they wanted to. They can be angry with her and she can deal with that consequence.

American hunters work individually and they don't really seek permission from each other on hunting. They might butt heads over HOW to conduct a hunt but they rarely consult with each other and get the go-ahead on hunts. They seek advice on how to hunt but not where or when. Not AFAIK.

If a hunter who specializes in hunting demons kills a demon that another demon hunter was going after, one of them is taking that demon off the board for the other hunter. If a hunter kills 6 wendigos in one hunt that is 6 wendigos off the table for other wendigo hunters. Basically, it seems to me that every hunter encroaches on every other hunters territory at some point and it's part of their life and they know and accept this.

If a Hunter's goal is to protect human beings from evil supernatural thing,  I don't think they are going to be particularly territorial. It's not like they get paid a higher wage ( or any wage) for hunting demons vs all the other monsters. Seems to me a hunter wouldn't be all that upset with not having to risk being possessed, having their necks broken by telekinesis and all the other really awful things that happen when hunting a demon, when they could just turn their talents to hunting the other monsters that still need to be dealt with.

32 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They kept assuming that if they were going to close the gates of Hell, tha all the demons would get sucked in and closed in with it.  IMO, there was just as much chance of the ones on the outside staying on the outside and then being unable to be exorcised.  Plus, all the souls destined for Hell would have turned into angry spirits.

I don't recall that being something that was an issue as stated in the show.

It seems to me a reaper would still be able to take the souls to Hell.  Demons could only get topside if they climbed out themselves or Crowley brought them out.  They didn't get out of Hell easily. The Devil's Gate in Wyoming was closed and reapers were still taking souls to Hell. If nothing else a reaper could use the back door of Hell in Purgatory to take souls into Hell.

44 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I never said he was a psychopath. I said he liked killing things, or at least the second part of the family business--hunting things.  I stand by that.  Bloodlust is the best example that pops into my head.  But, you were the one who said that Mary shouldn't be trying to get rid of all the monsters so that Sam and Dean wouldn't have to hunt any more.

As to the highlighted. I didn't say anything about that at all.  

As to Bloodlust, Dean was struggling to cope with John's death and the realization that John sold his soul for him and that he tasked him with the horrible job of Save Sam or Kill Sam. He was starting to spiral down at that point. He wasn't okay. He beat the crap out of Baby he was so upset and then he took out his pain and frustration and grief and sorrow on the vampire. That is not Dean's normal MO.  Anything Dean did under the influence of the Mark of Cain is off the table because he was not himself then either.  Although he did manage to limit the bloodlust the Mark caused him to have to killing shitty humans that were sex traffickers, rapists and murderers.

So for me, I don't think Dean really LOVES killing monsters for the sake of killing them. If he did he would never let any monster live no matter what. IMO, he does get satisfaction out of killing monsters because he knows it's saving lives, he took one off the board and it's not going to kill again.  YMMV

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

So for me, I don't think Dean really LOVES killing monsters for the sake of killing them. If he did he would never let any monster live no matter what. IMO, he does get satisfaction out of killing monsters because he knows it's saving lives, he took one off the board and it's not going to kill again.  YMMV

I think it lies somewhere in between. I don't think Dean is a bloodthirsty killing machine, by any means, and he certainly doesn't want to kill anyone or anything that doesn't deserve it. On the other hand, I don't think his enjoyment in hunting comes purely from high-minded satisfaction in saving lives. He likes the thrill of the chase -- and, yes, the kill. And, honestly, I don't think that's a bad thing, in most circumstances, but it does put him at risk for sometimes crossing the line, even if it takes a lot to get him there. 

In other words, he is not Ketch, or Gordon Walker, or the version of himself the MOC turned him into -- but there's something in him that makes those parallels apt enough to frighten him. There's a reason he found purgatory strangely "pure."

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't recall that being something that was an issue as stated in the show.

No, because as usual, they didn't think things through.  But, if shutting the doors of Heaven left all the Heaven bound souls trapped in the veil, why wouldn't sealing the gates of Hell leave all the souls bound for Hell trapped in the veil. And since in SPN verse the only people who go to Hell are those that sell their soul or are murderers, those murderers would probably for the most part not be Caspers.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

In other words, he is not Ketch, or Gordon Walker, or the version of himself the MOC turned him into -- but there's something in him that makes those parallels apt enough to frighten him. There's a reason he found purgatory strangely "pure

IMO, Dean said it was "pure"  because it was kill or be killed and he didn't have to think about the moral relativism of whether a monster deserved to be killed or not, which ties directly back to the issues in s7 with him killing Amy Pond and Sam killing his monster daughter, Emma.

I'm not understanding why that would be a SL for Dean again unless they are really trying to convince me that Dean is a POS killer like Ketch or he's really Cain without the Mark.

And if that is what they are intending, making Dean into an incompetent hunter who can't hold on to his own weapon, seems like a poor way to go about it.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

No, because as usual, they didn't think things through.  But, if shutting the doors of Heaven left all the Heaven bound souls trapped in the veil, why wouldn't sealing the gates of Hell leave all the souls bound for Hell trapped in the veil. And since in SPN verse the only people who go to Hell are those that sell their soul or are murderers, those murderers would probably for the most part not be Caspers.

 IMO, the rules for Heaven access don't have to be the same for Hell access. I don't see those as being inconsistent.

Closing the Gates of Hell on Earth wouldn't affect the access to Hell through Purgatory since that is in a different dimension, thus I can think of no reason why reapers wouldn't use that back door to transport Hell bound souls.

I don't understand what you mean by only murderers and people who sell their souls go to Hell? When was that specified?

[Aeryn13]

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I think it lies somewhere in between. I don't think Dean is a bloodthirsty killing machine, by any means, and he certainly doesn't want to kill anyone or anything that doesn't deserve it. On the other hand, I don't think his enjoyment in hunting comes purely from high-minded satisfaction in saving lives. He likes the thrill of the chase -- and, yes, the kill. 

Ignoring the current version of "who the fuck is this guy and can he learn to tie his shoes, please", I`d say Dean is a warrior. Amara called him that and I really liked it. Because it doesn`t hold the extremely negative connotations of just "killer". And warrior doesn`t necessarily mean someone who happily hop-skips over ever moral event horizon they can find. Which IMO is and has never been Dean`s MO. Quite honestly, Sam is a lot more apt to do that if he decides on a certain goal and convinces himself that anything goes. 

Would Dean be ultimately content in a civilian life? I think that time has passed but there was a stretch I could have seen it happen. However, I never thought he wouldn`t have been satisfied with it because he was just too damn antsy to kill someone or something. Since that pretty much IS being a psychopath, if you use the word or not. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Boopsahoy]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Would Dean be ultimately content in a civilian life?

If there were no monsters left to kill I think he would be fine with a normal life. As long as there are still monsters, he feels his job/reason for being is to kill monsters. He is not a psychopath or a killer. As said up thread hes a warrior.

[companionenvy]

Yes, I agree that Dean could adapt to civilian life if he really believed his work was done. The interlude with Lisa didn't prove, to me, that he can't have a normal life -- just that he couldn't have a normal life under those circumstances.

[Myrelle]

I think that Dean feels that there will never not be something else or the next thing. He said that all the way back in S1 and I think that he's never wavered from that belief and I think that he's only going to be proven right again, but no one will even notice or care. Again.

It is the story of his life and I think that even he, himself, has begun to accept that sad fact. Nihilism someone recently named it, and that's what I'd name it, too.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Myrelle

[PAForrest]

On 4/15/2017 at 4:54 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Ignoring the current version of "who the fuck is this guy and can he learn to tie his shoes, please", I`d say Dean is a warrior. Amara called him that and I really liked it.

Yet I simply can't ignore the current version of "can't talk and chew gum at the same time" valium!Dean. This is who Andrew Dabb has insisted upon, this is who he wants Dean to be, and unless Dabb goes away, I'd guess this guy isn't going away either. So at this point Dean really isn't a warrior, despite what Amara said.**

**Though I don't know that Amara really knew Dean anyway - if she did, she wouldn't have brought back Mary.

I agree back when Dean was still a full-fledged hunter, "warrior" was a good description for him. He was all about protecting the tribe, it's what he was raised to do, he used to be really good at it, and I never thought he would stop being that because I don't think a warrior ever stops being a warrior, even if only at heart, because the tribe is never not in danger from something or someone.

But now we're in season 12 with a Dean who bears little to no resemblance to the character he used to be, and so I honestly can't say anymore if he wouldn't be just as happy sitting around the house or going back to construction. I really can't read Dean at this point.

I believe the only way this version of Dean would stop being valium!Dean and become a warrior again is if he somehow got back to Purgatory and Benny.

Edited April 16, 2017 by PAForrest

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Yet I simply can't ignore the current version of "can't talk and chew gum at the same time" valium!Dean. This is who Andrew Dabb has insisted upon, this is who he wants Dean to be, and unless Dabb goes away, I'd guess this guy isn't going away either. So at this point Dean really isn't a warrior, despite what Amara said.**

Granted, I think in discussing Dean, I have to ignore this current iteration because it`s like a completely different character. The real Dean is still a warrior to me.

As for Amara bringing Mary back, yes, that turned out to be a big bomb but I think she had good intentions. Not even Amara could know how shitty that would turn out.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note: 

Please take the discussion of Dean's character to the Dean Winchester: Aka Squirrel topic. 

Thanks.

[catrox14]

I've been re-watching the last act of s5 on TNT.  Man do I hate these episodes and the complete shift of Dean's arc.

UO, I always thought Dean had a plan in PoNR to convince everyone he was going to say yes to Michael, but he really had a plan to kill Zachariah. IMO his drinking and shipping his stuff to Bobby wasn't him giving up, but was a JUST IN CASE he was killed during his plan.  IMO, his being morose, and angry was well to be expected given he was becoming increasingly convinced Sam was going to say yes.

My Head!canon which I think has some canon support is that Dean developed this plan on his way to Lisa's house. I say this because at the end of 99 Problems, he tells Lisa that he's got a list of conditions for the people who want a piece of him. 

Then when he gets to the Beautiful Room he tells Zachariah he has a few conditions. I think the wink wasn't Dean thinking of it that moment but letting Sam know there was a plan. I think those were always the same conditions that Zachariah would have to die, and that certain people would be protected,  before he would say yes, whether he was intending to say yes or not.  IMO what mucked with that was Adam being pulled out  of Kripke/Carver's asses his grave which  threw a wrench into Dean's plan.  I think that's really the only way I can swallow that complete switch on Dean' arc .

Another UO, Dean saying yes to Michael would have been a logical choice to defeat a potential Samifer. Regardless of the idea of Dean not wanting to become an angel condom, it wasn't an illogical choice for Dean to say yes.  And it wouldn't have made him suicidal for choosing that option. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by catrox14

[FlickChick]

It's always been my opinion that the title of the episode "Point of No Return" meant that Dean would say "yes" to Michael. That obviously would be a significant point from which he (Dean) could not return from without Michael's consent. I also believe that the original plan - before renewal -  was for Dean to say "yes" to Michael; Sam to say "yes" to Lucifer and together our brothers would overcome the Archangels and take a "Swan Song" leap into the cage to save the world.  Thus both titles would apply because "Swan Song" also means the end. JMO

[Demented Daisy]

I like Mary.  I like that they gave her a life aside from Sam and Dean.  I'm glad they didn't keep her in the bunker, washing the blood and guts out of their clothes, making Dean pie, etc.  And, frankly, I'm not surprised she's taken the path she has with Ketch and the BMoL.  Sam did something very similar back in season 4, in his desire to not spend the rest of his life hunting.

In her own way, she's trying to protect her sons.  And I get that.  As a mom, you do whatever you think you need to if it means protecting your children.  Is it misguided?  Perhaps.  But she's trying.  And I give her mountains of credit for that.

I don't even blame her for not hunting with Sam and Dean.  It's like being in a cop family -- I couldn't handle watching my children risk their lives day in and day out.  It's one thing to know it's happening, but to see it?  I would need constant therapy to deal with the stress.

But mileage varies, of course.

[Aeryn13]

When Mary died the first time, I think it was truly - and obviously - detrimental to her sons. If she died now, I believe the exact opposite. Granted, the characters wouldn`t see it that way but they don`t know what`s good for them.

This Season is nuts. Over the span of 18 episodes, they made me feel at least a little bad for the Mick-character when he died and I couldn`t care less about him upon introduction. Meanwhile Mary who I liked (granted, limited material over 11 Seasons) beforehand, I would have gladly shoved in the way of that bullet meant for Mick.   

[Mulva]

Quote

I'm not unsympathetic to Dean being upset that Sam went to school.  I'm unsympathetic to the fact that he kept throwing it in Sam's face for year's afterwards.

 

That's exactly how I feel.  Sure, Dean had every right to be upset, but he should have gotten over it during the years Sam was at Stanford, or they should have hashed it out in S1 and let it drop permanently.  All it does is make Dean look like an immature, jealous, grudge-holder, especially since he had a car, wasn't tied down with a job or family, and could have visited Sam anytime he wanted.

[DittyDotDot]

Our recent puzzle in the hangman thread got me thinking on the theme of "I'm tired" the show used to have with Dean: Tired of the weight John put on him (S2); Tired of living (S3); Tired of dying (S4); Tired of looking for faith (S5); Tired of family biting him in the ass (S6); Tired of burying friends (S7); Tired of being on defense (S8); Tired of trying to do the right thing only to have it turn to crap (S9); Tired of fighting (S10); Tried of being chosen (S11)...anyway, got me to thinking how much I appreciate the novelty of Dean not being tired this season.

I think it's been a nice change of pace that, despite that everything isn't perfect in Dean's life, the weight and guilt to be lifted from Dean this year. I feel like we're seeing Dean actually happy--more or less--for the first time. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it's been a nice change of pace that, despite that everything isn't perfect in Dean's life, the weight and guilt to be lifted from Dean this year. I feel like we're seeing Dean actually happy--more or less--for the first time. 

Taking my response to the Dean thread

[DeeDee79]

On 4/28/2017 at 8:44 AM, Mulva said:

All it does is make Dean look like an immature, jealous, grudge-holder, especially since he had a car, wasn't tied down with a job or family, and could have visited Sam anytime he wanted.

How often after season 1 did he actually mention Sam going to Stanford? I honestly thought that beyond that time the references were due to Sam wanting a normal life and Dean wanting him to get out of hunting because he deserved one. Also, in the pilot, didn't Sam ask Dean why he didn't call first, to which Dean asked if he would even pickup the phone if he had to which Sam had no reply? This makes me think that he did try to keep in touch and an impromptu visit wouldn't have been welcomed. I think calling Dean "an immature, jealous, grudge holder" is a little strong since he he always seems to hold Sam's best interests above his own. Mileage of course, varies.

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

How often after season 1 did he actually mention Sam going to Stanford?

Everybody Loves a Clown, Jump the Shark, Lucifer Rising, Dark Side of the Moon, Point of No Return, possibly Heartache but I'm not sure on that one.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Everybody Loves a Clown, Jump the Shark, Lucifer Rising, Dark Side of the Moon, Point of No Return, possibly Heartache but I'm not sure on that one.

But was it in an accusatory "how dare you leave sort of way" as it was in the first season? I'm sorry but beyond the hurt feelings from Sam leaving that was hashed out more than once during season one I don't feel that there's been continuous dwelling on the college thing. In Dark Side of the Moon wasn't it brought up with a series of other memories that Sam had?

[Katy M]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

But was it in an accusatory "how dare you leave sort of way" as it was in the first season? I'm sorry but beyond the hurt feelings from Sam leaving that was hashed out more than once during season one I don't feel that there's been continuous dwelling on the college thing. In Dark Side of the Moon wasn't it brought up with a series of other memories that Sam had?

Jump the Shark: He specifically said something about " when you ditched us for Stanford."

Lucifer Rising' He was talking to Bobby and said "Sam ditched us for Stanfrod the first chance he got."

Yes, Dark Side of the Moon, it came up via the memories,but again he used the phrase "ditched us for Stanford." 

In Point of No Return he said something about running away every chance he got. 

None of these times did he use the phrase, "decided to go to college to improve yourself and get out on your own and out of hunting in a healthy, normal kind of way, like most people after graduating high school."  Most people don't refer to their sibling going to college as being ditched.  Especially when it was the dad who tells him if goes to stay gone. 

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Jump the Shark: He specifically said something about " when you ditched us for Stanford."

Lucifer Rising' He was talking to Bobby and said "Sam ditched us for Stanfrod the first chance he got."

Yes, Dark Side of the Moon, it came up via the memories,but again he used the phrase "ditched us for Stanford." 

In Point of No Return he said something about running away every chance he got. 

None of these times did he use the phrase, "decided to go to college to improve yourself and get out on your own and out of hunting in a healthy, normal kind of way, like most people after graduating high school."  Most people don't refer to their sibling going to college as being ditched.  Especially when it was the dad who tells him if goes to stay gone. 

Ok; I stand corrected. However, through the course of 12 seasons I don't consider a handful of mentions of ditching the family for college is worth more than nearly an entire series of Dean telling Sam how he should get out, settle down, is too smart for hunting etc. Anyone that has siblings knows that hurt feelings no matter how far in the past are always thrown out as a defense when we're upset. In that case everyone is jealous, immature and capable of holding grudges.

[Bessie]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Ok; I stand corrected. However, through the course of 12 seasons I don't consider a handful of mentions of ditching the family for college is worth more than nearly an entire series of Dean telling Sam how he should get out, settle down, is too smart for hunting etc. 

I honestly can't remember Dean taking this position. I'm not saying he hasn't, but I can't remember him doing it. I always thought it was interesting how when Sam was going to the pit he told Dean to settle down, have a life outside of hunting. Whereas when Dean was going to hell, he told Sam to continue on and remember what John and he had taught him.  

[ILoveReading]

On 2017-04-28 at 0:44 PM, Mulva said:

and could have visited Sam anytime he wanted.

I don't think its this black and white.  Sam and Dean were probably not on good terms when Sam left, so it stands to reason that he (Sam) would not have been receptive if Dean showed up on his door step.  It's also possible Dean didn't think he's be welcome, especially if Sam wanted to cut all ties to his old life and that would have included Dean.  

When Dean asked Sam if Sam would have picked up the phone, Sam didn't confirm or deny but his silence didn't seem to suggest he would have. 

[companionenvy]

Changing the topic (or bringing the topic over from the Dean thread), here's an Unpopular Opinion: I don't think Sam and Dean are wrong for working with the BMOL.

Yes, I think that only the idiot plot is making them so unsuspicious that they didn't change the locks on the bunker, but as a whole it doesn't seem like they are losing much by the basics of the arrangement. As far as I can tell, we haven't seen Sam or Dean change their hunting methods or morals by one iota. The only thing that has changed is that rather than searching for cases on their own, they are getting intel from the BMOL, which apparently is a more efficient system. I'm not thrilled with the language of "reporting" to the BMOL, but all that seems to mean is "you give us the case, we tell you how it went," which isn't all that unreasonable. It isn't like Sam and Dean couldn't lie if it were a case in which the BMOL's code was likely to run up against their own morality.

Again, I do agree that the brothers aren't suspicious enough of the BMOL. Knowing what they now know, for instance, I think they should be very wary about asking for the BMOL's help on anything, since the BMOL -- as they should now realize -- are liable to kill innocents and even non-BMOL allies if the person gets in their way. But I honestly don't see why the Winchesters -- from their perspective -- shouldn't be pursuing leads just because the source is the BMOL.

I'm honestly curious: if the BMOL has proven intel on valid cases -- and is apparently effective enough that the number of cases not on the BMOL radar is dring up -- then what do you think Sam and Dean should do if, say, they get a call from the Brits about a string of mysterious deaths in a town in Wisconsin? Wherever the information comes from, they are saving people. And if we accept the premise that the BMOL are more efficient at locating cases, refusing to work with them leads to saving fewer people. 

[shang yiet]

I think the responsibility for making the first move lay with John and to a lesser extent Dean and not the one being kicked out on a dark night.  If John or Dean hesitated to call, that's on them. Sam might feel Dean was still upset with him and wouldn't welcome his calls and he probably didn't want to hear any more 'How dare you ditch us' lectures.

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, shang yiet said:

I think the responsibility for making the first move lay with John and to a lesser extent Dean and not the one being kicked out on a dark night.  If John or Dean hesitated to call, that's on them. Sam might feel Dean was still upset with him and wouldn't welcome his calls and he probably didn't want to hear any more 'How dare you ditch us' lectures.

If Sam truly thought that Dean wouldn't be willing to speak with him then why would he ask him why he didn't call first? Seems to me it was the other way around.

[mertensia]

Except in dialog Dean makes it pretty clear that Dean hasn't contacted Sam for two years because Sam requested that he not.

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Except in dialog Dean makes it pretty clear that Dean hasn't contacted Sam for two years because Sam requested that he not.

No it wasn't.  Dean said he hadn't bothered him or asked him for anything in 2 years.  If there was a line that said "per your request' I must have missed it.

[ILoveReading]

9 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I'm honestly curious: if the BMOL has proven intel on valid cases -- and is apparently effective enough that the number of cases not on the BMOL radar is dring up -- then what do you think Sam and Dean should do if, say, they get a call from the Brits about a string of mysterious deaths in a town in Wisconsin? Wherever the information comes from, they are saving people. And if we accept the premise that the BMOL are more efficient at locating cases, refusing to work with them leads to saving fewer people. 

I think this is a moral question that really has no right or wrong answer.  There are pros and cons to the way Sam and Dean approach hunting and the way The Brits do it.   Sam and Dean have a lot less potential to kill those who doesn't deserve killing.  The Brits tend to sit back and wait and take out large groups.  But by waiting and watching, you tend  to increase the risk of collateral damage. 

The Brits remind me of that end scene in Die Hard where the FBI are discussing taking out the terrorists and one comments that they would lose 20-25% of the hostages and his partner said "I can live with that."

I think in that situation what would be the deciding factor is the guys your taking orders from and their motivation.  To use an example, lets say a person wanted to save a forest from being turned into apartment buildings.  On their own that person has limited resources so a corporation offers to help by loaning their influence, but they have a long history of sketchy environmental conduct. There is no doubt they can help but I would seriously question why they want too?      The Brits don't care who gets caught in their crossfire.  They have no problem using torture to get what they want or killing innocent people.   The make children kill children.  I question their motivation in eliminating all monsters.  Why is that their mission?  Their actions don't suggest they value human life? It seems for more about wanting to be in control rather than benevolence.   That the killing of the monster is the most important thing and saving lives is a perk.  (Hopefully, I explained that okay.)

It's true Sam and Dean are still hunting for their code but given that they know what happens to those that the Brits deem rogue it only has the potential to go sideways.  If Sam and Dean are hunting werewolf and lie about killing them, the Brits are paying attention.  They're tracking nests and packs.  They're making themselves targets and they should know that.

Sam and Dean should also know they won't take kindly to making one of their top men (Mick) question the code.

Spoiler

We know that it has since  they didn't fall into line the Brits are now going to go after their loved ones.

While not always fair, there is guilt by association.   The Brits decided that the Winchesters were the key to recruiting others.  So if Mick did any recruiting, I have no doubt part of his speech in "The Winchesters are on board."  Mick wouldn't be lying, and they wouldn't be adding qualifiers, that they're only taking cases.  Other hunters turned them down.  So it seems they had a problem with "just taking cases" from them.  Whether it is because they prefer to work alone or the felt something sketchy doesn't really matter, they were smart enough to have nothing to do with them.

Edited May 1, 2017 by ILoveReading

[mertensia]

51 minutes ago, Katy M said:

No it wasn't.  Dean said he hadn't bothered him or asked him for anything in 2 years.  If there was a line that said "per your request' I must have missed it.

Dean says he hasn't bothered Sam or asked for a thing in almost two years. He also points out that if he had called Sam wouldn't have answered. That's Sam telling him to stop, not Dean deciding on his own.

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I think it was all three of them deciding to be stubborn. I'd guess since John told Sam if he walked out the door he was out, so John was sticking to his threat hoping Sam would come running back on his own; Sam figured since John told him to stay gone and since no one reached out to him, he figured they didn't want him to reach out to them either; Dean figured since Sam didn't try to reach out, Sam didn't want to hear from him.

IMO, it was a stubborn circle of all of them figuring the other didn't want contact and none of them wanting to be the first to cave. Because...stubborn men!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

19 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Dean says he hasn't bothered Sam or asked for a thing in almost two years. He also points out that if he had called Sam wouldn't have answered. That's Sam telling him to stop, not Dean deciding on his own.

Actually, first Dean asks if Sam would have answered the phone if he'd called:

Quote

SAM
What the hell are you doing here?

DEAN
Okay. All right. We gotta talk.

SAM
Uh, the phone?

DEAN
If I'd'a called, would you have picked up?

At which point, Jess turns on the light and comes in the room, so Sam never answers or never gets a chance to answer - depending on individual interpretations of the scene.  IMO, that's not the same thing as Dean pointing out that Sam wouldn't have answered his phone call.  

Then a bit later, after Sam has followed Dean outside to discuss John's 'hunting trip' (cause Sam doesn't want to talk about it in front of Jess) Dean plays Sam a voice mail from John with EVP on it:

Quote

DEAN drops the recorder, puts down the shotgun, stands straight, and shuts the trunk, then leans on it.

DEAN
You know, in almost two years I've never bothered you, never asked you for a thing.

SAM looks away and sighs, then looks back.

SAM
All right. I'll go. I'll help you find him.

I don't think it is clear, either from dialog or the action, that Sam told Dean not to contact him or Dean just didn't because of reasons that @DittyDotDot said above.  

[trxr4kids]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, it was a stubborn circle of all of them figuring the other didn't want contact and none of them wanting to be the first to cave. Because...stubborn men!

That's what I think too, except I would change stubborn men to stubborn Winchester's because they take it too a whole other level!

Unpopular opinion: The BMoL brain melting rugaru gun is not any worse than setting them on fire which was said to be the only way to kill them previously. It's actually safer for the hunter considering they don't have to dodge flaming rugaru or worry about setting the location on fire. I can see the point that if they could come up with that weapon, they surely could have come up with a more humane one or perhaps at least tranquilizer dart or magically sedate them first. Although it should be said that hunters have never bothered to try the tranq dart thing either that we know of and being burned alive sounds just as pleasant as having your brain melted if you ask me.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

That's what I think too, except I would change stubborn men to stubborn Winchester's because they take it too a whole other level!

True!

4 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Unpopular opinion: The BMoL brain melting rugaru gun is not any worse than setting them on fire which was said to be the only way to kill them previously. It's actually safer for the hunter considering they don't have to dodge flaming rugaru or worry about setting the location on fire. I can see the point that if they could come up with that weapon, they surely could have come up with a more humane one or perhaps at least tranquilizer dart or magically sedate them first. Although it should be said that hunters have never bothered to try the tranq dart thing either that we know of and being burned alive sounds just as pleasant as having your brain melted if you ask me.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with the BMoL gadgets--other than they're obnoxiously techy, IMO--just their philosophy.

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Although it should be said that hunters have never bothered to try the tranq dart thing either that we know of and being burned alive sounds just as pleasant as having your brain melted if you ask me.

Point of fact, Travis waited for Jack to wake up before attempting to set him on fire in Metamorphosis.

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

Dean says he hasn't bothered Sam or asked for a thing in almost two years. He also points out that if he had called Sam wouldn't have answered. That's Sam telling him to stop, not Dean deciding on his own.

He didn't say that he knew for a fact that Sam wouldn't have answered.  You may be right, but you're stating a bunch of things as fact that are actually your opinion.