S03.E10: Dandelion Sky

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Melba/Clarissa may hand-wave all the deaths on Eros and the other settlements as being for the greater good and see her father as a martyr, but is she aware that her sister was a victim too?  Does she know the circumstances of Julie's death or that Julie was trying to stop dad?  (I haven't seen this episode yet so forgive me if this came up.)

Presumably she watched the news play out about her father, so she knows about it.  Or "knows" about it.  It's pretty clear to me that she thinks her father was trying to explore/stop the proto-molecule but doesn't believe the less savory aspects of how he did that.  So she probably doesn't believe he had a hand in effectively murdering Julie.

Edited June 15, 2018 by johntfs

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, WildPlum said:

I still say that Drummer doesn't have that long as a living character on this show and her read of Ashford is exactly what is going to happen.

God I hope not, but that does feel like a real possibility. On the other hand, Drummer is forewarned, which is good.

9 hours ago, johntfs said:

Regardless of the above I think Clarissa does feel remorse, or at least guilt, over what she did to Ren.  Considered how weirdly protective she got when the others started digging into his possessions.

I suppose one reason I'm as willing to sympathize with Clarissa as I am is because she is still capable of feeling guilt and knowing that she really isn't the hero of this story.  Contrast that with Mao, Strickland, Anderson Dawes and even Cotyer, who murdered an innocent man for the "crime" of having a bad poker face.

Cotyer wasn't happy about killing the guy, but the "bad poker face" did put Cotyer's life at risk. He didn't kill him because bad poker face was in the way of Cotyer killing a bunch of people. I was sorry he did that, but I can understand his motive. 

I could not care less about Melba's remorse. She killed someone who simply got in the way of her plan to kill a ship of innocent people just so she could set Holden up (and the Belters by association) and, oopsie, trigger a shooting war.

You could make a case that she's in the same category as Cotyer (though at this point, far less interesting), except the scale is different, and she just wrings her hands about the situation she chose to put herself into, whereas Cotyer is at least honest with himself.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Clanstarling

[anamika]

46 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Cotyer wasn't happy about killing the guy, but the "bad poker face" did put Cotyer's life at risk. He didn't kill him because bad poker face was in the way of Cotyer killing a bunch of people. I was sorry he did that, but I can understand his motive.

 

 I think Cotyar killed 'bad poker face' because he put Avasarala's life at risk. Cotyar's story once captured was that Avasarala died on the Guanshiyin when it was blown up.  Bad poker face would have given the game up and blabbered about Avasarala and Bobbie escaping on the Razorback.

I did dislike Cotyar for killing bad poker face - poor guy helped save their lives. But as you said Cotyar's motives were understandable - letting Chrisjen escape with the truth about Errinwright.

Clarissa on the other hand...

Anyways, it will be fun to see how the Roci crew deals with her if she gets there next episode.

Edited June 15, 2018 by anamika

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

 I think Cotyar killed 'bad poker face' because he put Avasarala's life at risk. Cotyar's story once captured was that Avasarala died on the Guanshiyin when it was blown up.  Bad poker face would have given the game up and blabbered about Abasarala and Bobbie escaping on the Razorback.

I did dislike Cotyar for killing bad poker face - poor guy helped save their lives. But as you said Cotyar's motives were understandable - letting Chrisjen escape with the truth about Errinwright.

Clarissa on the other hand...

Anyways, it will be fun to see how the Roci crew deals with her if she gets there next episode.

Thank you - I thought there was a motive that was slightly less self-centered, but I couldn't quite remember the details.

[btp]

You know, this comparison of Cotyar's crimes with Clarissa Mao's does raise a question. One of the things that seem to set Clarissa's crimes apart from Cotyar's is that Clarissa is said to have been willing to murder many people in order to frame Holden. But this presumes some facts that are not necessarily in evidence. All indications from what we saw was that the ship the blew up, a Science Vessel, was unmanned. There certainly were no crew members wandering around during their time there, and when the ship did blow up, nobody on screen seemed to be mourning the loss of anyone other than Ren.

So... let's suppose, for argument's sake, that Clarissa killed (so far) the same number of people that Cotyar did. Does that make any difference? Both characters seemed to be fairly decent, helpful people, but both were arguably red shirts, whose deaths we seem to accept more readily for some reason. And Clarissa took out millions of dollars worth of equipment, but that doesn't usually get our rankles up as much as murder. Putting the ship aside for a moment, though, the murders committed by Cotyar and by Clarissa seem to line up pretty well. Both were committed, not as a primary objective, but rather in the mode of collateral damage (cleaning up a perceived loose end in both cases), both characters seemed remorseful, both characters likely saw their actions as necessary because they were at war (Clarissa's may be mostly in her heads, but that's the way she sees it)....

I dunno. I mean, this is all moral relativism anyway, and so it's all kind of suspect. But if we're willing to forgive Cotyar so easily, why are the rules for Clarissa so different?

And that's not a rhetorical question; it's something I really do wonder. I feel that way too - Cotyar is a hero and Melba/Clarissa is ... well, not. But why? If you analyze their actions dispassionately, (and assume the blown up ship was indeed unmanned), aren't they pretty similar?

What does everyone think?

[Clanstarling]

4 minutes ago, btp said:

You know, this comparison of Cotyar's crimes with Clarissa Mao's does raise a question. One of the things that seem to set Clarissa's crimes apart from Cotyar's is that Clarissa is said to have been willing to murder many people in order to frame Holden. But this presumes some facts that are not necessarily in evidence. All indications from what we saw was that the ship the blew up, a Science Vessel, was unmanned. There certainly were no crew members wandering around during their time there, and when the ship did blow up, nobody on screen seemed to be mourning the loss of anyone other than Ren.

So... let's suppose, for argument's sake, that Clarissa killed (so far) the same number of people that Cotyar did. Does that make any difference? Both characters seemed to be fairly decent, helpful people, but both were arguably red shirts, whose deaths we seem to accept more readily for some reason. And Clarissa took out millions of dollars worth of equipment, but that doesn't usually get our rankles up as much as murder. Putting the ship aside for a moment, though, the murders committed by Cotyar and by Clarissa seem to line up pretty well. Both were committed, not as a primary objective, but rather in the mode of collateral damage (cleaning up a perceived loose end in both cases), both characters seemed remorseful, both characters likely saw their actions as necessary because they were at war (Clarissa's may be mostly in her heads, but that's the way she sees it)....

I dunno. I mean, this is all moral relativism anyway, and so it's all kind of suspect. But if we're willing to forgive Cotyar so easily, why are the rules for Clarissa so different?

And that's not a rhetorical question; it's something I really do wonder. I feel that way too - Cotyar is a hero and Melba/Clarissa is ... well, not. But why? If you analyze their actions dispassionately, (and assume the blown up ship was indeed unmanned), aren't they pretty similar?

What does everyone think?

Huh. I was operating under the idea that the vessel did have a crew and that we didn't see anyone because mechanics go to places out of the beaten track.

If that's true, then the only measure of moral relativism as far as I can tell is the difference between killing to survive so the information to prevent (or stop) a devastating war gets where it needs to go, and killing so that your plan for revenge isn't hampered, and has the likely event of starting a war. So I'd still lean toward Cotyer's side on the scale of moral relativism, but perhaps wouldn't think quite as harshly about Clarissa.

The other element, which has nothing to do with moral relativism, is that Clarissa's character, so far, whether because of acting or writing (probably both), just isn't interesting. Almost every character we've come to know has been arresting and vivid almost immediately. Even the documentary crew are more interesting than Clarissa. And I have my own personal bias about Daddy issues.

[WearyTraveler]

19 minutes ago, btp said:

What does everyone think?

I guess for me it's about options and motivation. Could any of them achieve their objectives any other way and is their motivation for a "good" cause or not? Coytar was on the side that wanted peace, there seemed to be very little self interest there.  Yes, his actions were about self-preservation, but, if he didn't save himself, how could he continue to help Avasarala's peace cause? He had an immediate objective and an important message to communicate in the name of the person trying to keep everyone from killing each other unnecessarily.  

 

Clarissa is out for revenge.  She wants to avenge a person whose actions caused the death of thousands and thousands, and who didn't really care that all those people died for his research.  He wasn't even doing it out of scientific curiosity, he was doing it for the money, as we saw him sell the technology to both sides of the Earth-Mars conflict and he used the Belters as Guinea Pigs.  What's worse, the real reason Clarissa is doing all of this is because her daddy appeared to love her older sister more than her.  That's so fucked up.  It doesn't justify any of her actions.

 

I didn't agree with Coytar's choice, and thought he could have played it out, but I saw where he was coming from.  But I don't have any sympathy for Clarissa and her selfish plight to be Daddy's favorite girl.

Edited June 15, 2018 by WearyTraveler

[WildPlum]

Minor complaint: the episode description says "Holden sees past, present, and future" - it is a good thing that they flat-out told us that, because I still have no idea what Holden was seeing. The little blue planetoid/ship, yes, 6 (or 8, I forget) other worlds, going blue (protomolecule?) and a close-up of one of them in flames.

Someone upthread mentioned Amos talking about what happened to him when he was 5 - didn't we already get hints about that, way back when he was talking to one of the Evil Scientists (the one Dawes has now) about pretty much having part of his brain removed/killed/seriously altered, and he was asking the scientist (in a round about way) if that could be reversed? That's what I assumed, anyway, that was the reason that little tidbit was there. Not sure why anyone would do that to a 5 yr old on purpose but it might have been part of some other issue.

[johntfs]

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Huh. I was operating under the idea that the vessel did have a crew and that we didn't see anyone because mechanics go to places out of the beaten track.

I can't believe there wasn't some crew on the ship.  Aside from the sensor drones and missiles, pretty much everything else that flies needs some kind of human person to fly it.  Also, there was clearly breathable air on the science ship, which there likely wouldn't be if the thing didn't need to keep humans alive on it.  Finally, once the ship was destroyed and "Holden" claimed credit, all the very forces in the area tried really hard to capture and then very much kill Holden and the Roci.  Figure that reaction wouldn't have been quite that vehement if he'd just blown up an automated vessels.  As was, figure people died.

From my point of view, I kind of sympathize with Clarissa, though I don't support or goals or hope for her success.  I mostly kind of hope she finds some way to stop (or be stopped) before she brings more harm to both her own soul and to those people around her.

[ACW]

23 hours ago, WildPlum said:

 

How does Naomi plan to intercept the Roci before the Mars ship, which is ahead of her, does? 

She's an engineer, not a navigator, damnit!

(Yeah, that part really bugs me too.)

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, ACW said:

She's an engineer, not a navigator, damnit!

(Yeah, that part really bugs me too.)

Intercepts are clearly possible given Melba's checking out possible intercepts of the Roci from the Thomas Prince.  One thing to remember is that nobody's in normal space now.  It's not like there's this wide open area where if you're behind someone you stay behind them unless you can somehow go faster.  This thing is some kind of extradimensional space.  When ships enter it they seem to get spit out in somewhat random areas of the place.  So, just because the Martian ship was pursuing the Roci doesn't mean it was closer to it than Noami was when she launched from the Behemoth.

At least that's my take on it.

[ACW]

When ships pass through the ring, they seem to emerge from the ring  on the other side, not appear in some random spot. 

The ring itself is very large, so early on, what part of the ring they entered/emerged from would influence ships' abilities to intercept each other.  However, that effect would decrease to irrelevance once they went as far in as they are now.

[btp]

21 hours ago, johntfs said:

I can't believe there wasn't some crew on the ship.  Aside from the sensor drones and missiles, pretty much everything else that flies needs some kind of human person to fly it.  Also, there was clearly breathable air on the science ship, which there likely wouldn't be if the thing didn't need to keep humans alive on it.  Finally, once the ship was destroyed and "Holden" claimed credit, all the very forces in the area tried really hard to capture and then very much kill Holden and the Roci.  Figure that reaction wouldn't have been quite that vehement if he'd just blown up an automated vessels.  As was, figure people died.

For what it's worth, there seem to be examples in this series already of (mostly) unmanned support vessels being brought along as part of a fleet of vessels on their way to one thing or another. I could imagine any number of reasons for this. For example, a science vessel like the Seung Un might be packed to the gills with instrumentation, leaving no room for crew quarters, galleys, etc. Think of it as a science lab in space, which is what it basically is, really. People may work there, but they don't live there. And while the fleet was still underway to the ring, there wouldn't have been much reason for people to be there in the lab, as there was nothing yet to study, analyze, etc. They may even turn life support off during periods when it is uninhabited, much as you might turn off the lights and the Air Conditioning when you leave your office at night. There are current day, and even historical, examples as well, going back as far as the 60s (the Lunar Modules on the Apollo moon missions were empty during the trips to and from Lunar orbit). So I think it's entirely plausible that the Seung Un had no humans aboard (other than Ren) when Melba blew it up.

As to the reaction, Fake!Holden declared the explosion to be a demonstration and a warning of things to come if the Inners didn't turn tail and go home. So that was a bit of a non-starter, to say the least. Plus, manned or not, that wasn't exactly a cargo container "Holden" took out; it was likely millions of dollars worth of scientific equipment, plus the multi-million dollar vessel carrying it. When someone robs a bank without killing anyone, society is not exactly soft on them because no lives were lost. Same deal here, I would think.

I'm not saying there's a huge amount of evidence any of this speculation is on the mark, but there certainly isn't any evidence it isn't, either.

 

On 6/15/2018 at 1:41 PM, Clanstarling said:

the only measure of moral relativism as far as I can tell is the difference between killing to survive so the information to prevent (or stop) a devastating war gets where it needs to go, and killing so that your plan for revenge isn't hampered, and has the likely event of starting a war. So I'd still lean toward Cotyer's side on the scale of moral relativism, but perhaps wouldn't think quite as harshly about Clarissa.

On 6/15/2018 at 1:46 PM, WearyTraveler said:

I guess for me it's about options and motivation. Could any of them achieve their objectives any other way and is their motivation for a "good" cause or not? Coytar was on the side that wanted peace, there seemed to be very little self interest there.  Yes, his actions were about self-preservation, but, if he didn't save himself, how could he continue to help Avasarala's peace cause? He had an immediate objective and an important message to communicate in the name of the person trying to keep everyone from killing each other unnecessarily.  

Clarissa is out for revenge.  She wants to avenge a person whose actions caused the death of thousands and thousands, and who didn't really care that all those people died for his research.  He wasn't even doing it out of scientific curiosity, he was doing it for the money, as we saw him sell the technology to both sides of the Earth-Mars conflict and he used the Belters as Guinea Pigs.  What's worse, the real reason Clarissa is doing all of this is because her daddy appeared to love her older sister more than her.  That's so fucked up.  It doesn't justify any of her actions.

Fair enough. The point that motivation plays a big part in this is well taken. I think I could quibble that, in Clarissa's mind, her father's motives were probably way more noble, and the deaths not his fault, but still, revenge -- even if you stipulate that it is against someone who falsely imprisoned your father -- is a far poorer excuse than saving millions from an unjust war. So yeah, that's reasonable. Thank you both for pointing it out.

 

22 hours ago, WildPlum said:

Minor complaint: the episode description says "Holden sees past, present, and future" - it is a good thing that they flat-out told us that, because I still have no idea what Holden was seeing. The little blue planetoid/ship, yes, 6 (or 8, I forget) other worlds, going blue (protomolecule?) and a close-up of one of them in flames.

I always think it's a bit of a cheat when the published description of an episode reveals critical facts that were not evident from the presentation itself, so yeah, I agree with your minor complaint. Perhaps there were parts of that sequence that were cut out that would have made that clearer? Just a guess. But definitely, that reference to the future, plus that depiction of a solar system that looked an awful lot like our own getting itself Blowed Up Real Good was rather unsettling. But was it a clue? A warning? A prediction? Or was it all just a bit of misdirection? Hard to say.

I'm kind of surprised that there hasn't been more detailed, nerdy frame by frame analysis of Holden's Vision in forums, comment sections, reaction videos, blogs, reviews, etc.  I think of things like the final sequence in 2001, to which this sequence bears at least a superficial resemblance, or Cooper's Dream in Twin Peaks, or any number of other visions, dream sequences, and the like in television and film over the years, and many of those generated reams of analytical text. Though I've seen some discussion of this one, most of that analysis has been pretty tentative. Maybe it's just that this one was comparatively brief and, at least compared to the Twin Peaks example, wordless. I also suspect at least half of the audience has read the books, and those folks are (admirably) avoiding too much public comment, so as to avoid spoiling anything. But all that aside, I was looking forward to reading a lot of interesting theories, and while there have been some, the discussion hasn't been as extensive or robust as I would have expected. Oh, well.

Edited June 16, 2018 by btp

[SmithW6079]

Clarissa Mao is a mass murderer just like her father. Spacing her without a spacesuit would be too good a death for her.

I like Anna and the inclusion of people of faith in the "first contact." How does proof of alien life challenge our concept of God and humanity?

I felt bad for the lieutenant who was seeking comfort and finding none, killed himself. I think it is important to hold rituals like the memorial service precisely because of the situation they find themselves in.

The CGI with Holden and Miller was hilariously bad.

Why did the protomolecule pick only the grenade marine to dismantle when all the marines fired their weapons? 

Is it weird that I find Amos so hot especially when he's being dominant-without-even-trying (as in, not a posturing, macho wannabe with something to prove).

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, SmithW6079 said:

Why did the protomolecule pick only the grenade marine to dismantle when all the marines fired their weapons? 

Probably because he pushed the issue.  Everyone else fired their weapons and saw that their bullets had been "gooed" at which point they stopped.  He kept trying with the grenade so the room ate him.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Probably because he pushed the issue.  Everyone else fired their weapons and saw that their bullets had been "gooed" at which point they stopped.  He kept trying with the grenade so the room ate him.

That, plus it was a weapon with a greater destruction power, and in effect would damage the protomolecule structure - if it didn't have the ability to goo it. Kind like how he got absorbed into a panel. It was a pretty good visual - more like the spaceship than the scene with the kid taking apart the guard's body.

[capt planet]

So I rewatched the final bit in slowmotion. It looks like the "future" aspect of the "past, present, and future" scene begins after we see Eros being ejected from Venus (backwards time motion) and a naked Holden. I read this future portion as itself being shown backwards through time, with the swirling blue orbs/bird being the/a "final stage" of the protomolecule's evolution after having consumed a star. This screenshot looks like numerous rings opening portals to several star systems which eventually open around the galaxy (maybe universe), with "our ring" being the first. The nucleus that Holden is currently inside of shoots a beam at a star (possibly our Sun--I did see a Saturn-ish looking planet upon slowmo review) to consume it.

There's a theory amongst some physicists and philosophers that a sufficiently powerful or advanced organism must be able to consume energy on the scale of stars and star systems.

Now a good question is why the protomolecule feels there is a mystery to solve at all. Or if the Miller apparition exists solely to lead to more rings being created. Hmm.

 

 

This show is off the fuckin chain. I'm here for this!

 

(I hope this pic isn't massive)

Edited June 17, 2018 by capt planet

[marinw]

12 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

The CGI with Holden and Miller was hilariously bad.

Yes. It stands out because 95% of the time the CGI is amazing.

I don’t want to sound ungrateful as this is such a great show, but I am already nostalgic for the first half of the season with the Roci being crewed by Naomi, Holden, Alex, Amos, Prax, Bobbie and Chrisjen. I would have been fine with this crew going around the solar system and having adventures.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

Yes. It stands out because 95% of the time the CGI is amazing.

I don’t want to sound ungrateful as this is such a great show, but I am already nostalgic for the first half of the season with the Roci being crewed by Naomi, Holden, Alex, Amos, Prax, Bobbie and Chrisjen. I would have been fine with this crew going around the solar system and having adventures.

I understand the sentiment. I had the same feeling toward the end of Dark Matter. But I am enjoying the expanding scope, and I've no doubt the band will get back together in their birth of a new reality tour.

[WildPlum]

8 hours ago, capt planet said:

Now a good question is why the protomolecule feels there is a mystery to solve at all. Or if the Miller apparition exists solely to lead to more rings being created. Hmm.

What we do know: the main protomolecule mass, the thing that was on Venus, has contact with all the other current bits of protomolecule blob in our system. The fact that the protomolecule wants this little blue planetessimal/ship "investigated" means that the blue ship isn't part of the current protomolecule. Where it came from is sort of a mystery, unless it was always in this little isolated pocket universe and IT, not the protomolecule, is the one enforcing speed limits, etc. The protomolecule wants its records and built the ring to access this little pocket universe, but it is the blue thing that is controlling the pocket.

[Holmbo]

On 2018-06-14 at 4:45 AM, WatchrTina said:

I'm left wondering -- does Amos not feel fear because of all he endured in his childhood?  Or is he incapable of feeling fear because somebody messed with his brain?  They certainly hinted at the latter back when they had him so fascinated with that scientist who had had his empathy surgically removed.  But that's a topic for another day. 

 

My take on it is that something horrendous happened to him when he was five and which made him shut down part of himself as a sort of defense mechanism. I don't know that I totally buy his interpretation that he feels no fear. There's not a clear line between different emotions, a lot of times fear is the root of anger. I can buy that he's not afraid to die or anything basic like that though. 

On 2018-06-14 at 5:13 AM, ParadoxLost said:

I laughed when Amos listed the weird shit and it included alien shit, magic gates, Holden doing I have no idea, and Naomi leaving.

And Alex also responded to it. Being all like "yeah" and nodding just after he said that.
That and the "With the cats?" was my favorite funny moments of the episode.

On 2018-06-14 at 8:30 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Glad that Drummer totally knows what Ashford is up to, right down to him "defending her" when others question her leadership, in order to make himself look "noble" and whatnot.  Sadly though, I worry that it might be too late.  I feel like he's already planted the right amount of seeds of doubt with others and from has been gathered, it sounds like he's suppose to a beloved "old timer" amongst the Belters, so I fear Drummer could end up being overmatched, if a cue does take place.

I think Drummer has the right read on him. This is what I've thought of him too mostly, but there's always the small benefit of the doubt for me. I think it's because he does the same manipulation as Andersson Dawes in pretending to be very brutal honest and no nonsense and so makes you kinda trust him because of that. But just as Dawes turned out to be full of shit, Ashford will be too.

5 hours ago, marinw said:

Yes. It stands out because 95% of the time the CGI is amazing.

I don’t want to sound ungrateful as this is such a great show, but I am already nostalgic for the first half of the season with the Roci being crewed by Naomi, Holden, Alex, Amos, Prax, Bobbie and Chrisjen. I would have been fine with this crew going around the solar system and having adventures.

I don't know that the CGI was bad. How are they supposed to show a guy flying forward in a weird space bubble while hallucinating a hologram space detective? It would probably look kinda like that. My suggestion would be to just have Miller as a voice in Holdens head as he was flying.

I agree about missing the first half of this season. Those episodes are my favorite part of the entire show so far, I think, I'll have to see upon rewatch. The jump from that to the present situation was jarring. No good byes or anything between them!

ETA It's intersting to see Bobbies effort to prove her loyalty to Mars, contrasted with Naomi deciding to leave the Belter state. It's like Naomi's and Bobbies arcs mirror each other but they come to different conclusions. They both became disillusioned with something they were a part of, left it for a while and then returned to it because they felt at the core it was were they belonged. Naomi changed her mind again but Bobbie seem determined to stay a martian marine regardless of the personal costs. Of course Bobbie wasn't as close with Holden and co as Naomi.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Holmbo

[Clanstarling]

41 minutes ago, WildPlum said:

What we do know: the main protomolecule mass, the thing that was on Venus, has contact with all the other current bits of protomolecule blob in our system. The fact that the protomolecule wants this little blue planetessimal/ship "investigated" means that the blue ship isn't part of the current protomolecule. Where it came from is sort of a mystery, unless it was always in this little isolated pocket universe and IT, not the protomolecule, is the one enforcing speed limits, etc. The protomolecule wants its records and built the ring to access this little pocket universe, but it is the blue thing that is controlling the pocket.

Maybe it's the instruction manual. Here's what you do with the ring your programming set you up to create...

[btp]

6 hours ago, Holmbo said:

I don't know that the CGI was bad. How are they supposed to show a guy flying forward in a weird space bubble while hallucinating a hologram space detective? It would probably look kinda like that. My suggestion would be to just have Miller as a voice in Holdens head as he was flying.

Miller's appearances in those scenes reminded me a bit of another show. I think it would've been much more fun if he had a hand terminal that he kept banging on, saying things like "Ziggy says there's a 67% chance that you're supposed to do something at the alien station."

But seriously, yeah, there really wasn't much to be done there to keep that from looking hokey. Maybe if they had made Miller appear a tad less substantial and introduced some of the glitchy effects they had early on it would have helped. Though that would have been contrary to the narrative that "the signal is stronger" in the ring. Tough call, but I think in the end it worked well enough.

 

6 hours ago, Holmbo said:

ETA It's intersting to see Bobbies effort to prove her loyalty to Mars, contrasted with Naomi deciding to leave the Belter state. It's like Naomi's and Bobbies arcs mirror each other but they come to different conclusions. They both became disillusioned with something they were a part of, left it for a while and then returned to it because they felt at the core it was were they belonged. Naomi changed her mind again but Bobbie seem determined to stay a martian marine regardless of the personal costs.

I'm not sure staying with Team Roci was ever really an option for Bobbie, at least not at this point in the story. She trained to be a marine all her life, and her decision to defect was one of desperation, I think. Once the bad guys at the top were exposed and the MMC reached out to her and offered to reinstate her, I don't think she really felt she had the option to say no. It would have been extraordinarily unpatriotic to do so.

Bobbie is still young, though. I wouldn't be surprised if she followed Naomi's example later on, once she realizes that she has a "family" there, and one whose moral choices seem more pragmatic than dogmatic. Bobbie certainly has the grit and guts to be a Marine, but I don't think she's very good at blind loyalty, and eventually I think she's going to become disillusioned over that.

And even if you don't buy that, obviously the show needs to get her back on screen and on the side of the Good Guys, so I'm pretty sure they're going to figure out a a way to do that regardless.

Edited June 17, 2018 by btp

[Holmbo]

3 hours ago, btp said:

Bobbie is still young, though. I wouldn't be surprised if she followed Naomi's example later on, once she realizes that she has a "family" there, and one whose moral choices seem more pragmatic than dogmatic. Bobbie certainly has the grit and guts to be a Marine, but I don't think she's very good at blind loyalty, and eventually I think she's going to become disillusioned over that.

You might be right. I don't feel like it would be that easy logistically for Bobbie to quit the marines though, even if she wanted to. Or maybe it would be. They are not at war now, I'm not sure about protocol. 

I think they will have to come up with something if they want Bobbie in this story. If the crew just keep bumping into her platoon, space is gonna seem very small.

[Emily Thrace]

10 minutes ago, Holmbo said:

You might be right. I don't feel like it would be that easy logistically for Bobbie to quit the marines though, even if she wanted to. Or maybe it would be. They are not at war now, I'm not sure about protocol. 

I think they will have to come up with something if they want Bobbie in this story. If the crew just keep bumping into her platoon, space is gonna seem very small.

I wonder if the Martians try to seize the Roci and Alex is threatened if that might make her change her mind. I can see her going through a similar journey to Naomi. Where she gets pushed to far and realizes she doesn't belong there anymore.

[ferjy]

On 6/13/2018 at 11:16 PM, anamika said:

I could watch an entire episode of just Miller and Holden bantering their way to that ring station.

 

 

I could watch a whole episode of just Miller. I’m so happy he’s back, in any form. I hope they keep Thomas Jane on. 

Like everyone else, I’m loving the Alex and Amos duo.

As for Ashford, I hope his arc is a short one. I don’t know how David Strathairn gets work. He’s absolutely terrible at accents, he constantly slips back to his own, and yet he keeps getting roles with various accents! He must do it for free. And I like Drummer so I don’t want her to die or leave. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by ferjy

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, Holmbo said:

You might be right. I don't feel like it would be that easy logistically for Bobbie to quit the marines though, even if she wanted to. Or maybe it would be. They are not at war now, I'm not sure about protocol. 

I think they will have to come up with something if they want Bobbie in this story. If the crew just keep bumping into her platoon, space is gonna seem very small.

The only thing I can compare it to is our own armed services - and you can't just up and quit until your term is up, and I'm not sure, but it may be that special forces - like Bobbie - you are asked to commit to longer terms. Of course Bobbie did desert - but then she was reinstated. So that complicates the issue.

[Captanne]

Overall and based on this episode, the Melba plotline is a waste of air (and I get the impression it's the same in the books).  I dislike it intensely.  I think it's because the motivation is so lame and the "superhero arch-villain" bit is much too simplistic for this show.  It's almost as if it was looking to increase the audience to include a younger set.  Ironic that they got cancelled anyway and had to be picked up by a company with money to lose and after a fan uprising.

I adore Miller and missed him (thanks for the hopes raven!) 

RL military service -- depending on your training, you get a commitment to serve.  When I was in flight school, I committed to a year of training and then six years of service.  Then the First Gulf War hit in the middle of my sixth (ish) year and I was stuck in stop-loss for another two years.  If you have a job deemed "necessary to the mission" then the feds can activate "stop loss" of that particular type of personnel and you are stuck until they release you -- no matter what your initial commitment was. 

 

PS:  Oh, shit -- It's Clarissa I can't stand.  Who is Melba?  I thought she was that woman who is the daughter of Mao and sister of Juliet.  The one who looks like she's stifling a fart all the time.  She's awful -- both the character and the actress. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Captanne

[Danny Franks]

Late watching this episode again. I still think Steven Strait is doing a really good job with Holden in this arc. You could feel his bone-deep tiredness in the opening scene. That fatalistic, 'well, this is probably getting me killed, but whatever' acceptance because he just doesn't have the energy to fight it.

And I like the appreciation of physics in a vacuum again, where Holden can point himself at a stationary object, a long way away, and that's where he's going to end up. Nothing to knock him off course, no wind shear or turbulence or anything that you'd experience in atmosphere.

Him coming across as a complete lunatic to Bobbie and the Martian marines was a bit of much needed levity. Something else Steven Strait does well is that exasperated, distracted chatter. The CGI on Miller, just floating in nothing was subtly really good, unnerving. I liked the way they played off one another, the not-quite-manic energy of Miller, and Holden's sardonic digs. 

The architecture of the thing in the middle of the Gate was pretty cool, and clearly far more advanced than anything we've seen thus far, including the Protomolecule. It's a finished, designed object, but I wonder if it was built the same way. A Protomolecule sent out, with instructions to create this hub.

Good grief, Amos's idea of comforting talk is anything but! "Don't worry, I'll take you with me too." Wow, thanks, buddy.

Had to laugh at the contrast with the gung-ho, balls-out way the Belters took the Behemoth through the Gate last episode, and the Earthers with their silent, tense nervousness in this one. But the scene was a bit dragged out, when the audience has already seen people go through the Gate before. Again, I like Anna a lot more as this excited, engaged scientist, than I did when she was badgering politicians into doing the right thing. The constantly flirty woman on the ship is getting on my nerves. Where do you think you are, lady? But at least her recognising Clarissa gave her a reason for existing.

Clarissa is clearly doing all this to gain her asshole father's approval, but it's never going to come. She clearly has a few screws loose, but the question is whether they always were, or whether everything that's happened to her family has driven her around the bend. And she's just displacing all that anger and grief onto Holden and, to a lesser extent, the Roci crew.

The Lieutenant on the Thomas Prince being weird and suspicious... then blowing his brains out? They did that better on Battlestar Galactica, where it provided one of the biggest shocks of the show's entire run.

Cara Gee continues to boss the screen, alongside David Strathairn. I bet he's enjoying sparring with her, in their scenes together. They're two stubborn, opinionated alphas, trying to coexist, and that's a really cool dynamic (especially when one of them is a woman). That little shit, Diogo... he can't stop idolising people, can he? First Miller, then Dawes, now Ashford.

Ah shit, here come the military meatheads, fucking everything up. Looks like the hub has just grounded all the kids, because one or two decided to be dicks. But talk about having to fix what you broke! Yikes.

[Holmbo]

9 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

 

Had to laugh at the contrast with the gung-ho, balls-out way the Belters took the Behemoth through the Gate last episode, and the Earthers with their silent, tense nervousness in this one. But the scene was a bit dragged out, when the audience has already seen people go through the Gate before. Again, I like Anna a lot more as this excited, engaged scientist, than I did when she was badgering politicians into doing the right thing. The constantly flirty woman on the ship is getting on my nerves. Where do you think you are, lady? But at least her recognising Clarissa gave her a reason for existing.

Agreed that the scene was dragged out. I kinda expected something to go wrong cause they built it up so much. Like that the ring would close so that they'd just go through it all anti climactic.

[Captanne]

Please, some kind soul, tell me the difference between Clarissa and Melba?  I'm not sure who I'm talking about anymore.

[AngelKitty]

They are the same person. Her real name is Clarissa and her undercover terrorist name is Melba.

[BruceAE]

My biggest question coming out of the episode was whether Holden would feel betrayed by Bobbie trying to shoot him.

 

Although he’s probably over that, what the 2001 Space Odyssey moment.

 

clarissa/Melba is not very dynamic as a villain or a conflicted character.  She seems to have decided destroying Holden is worth any level of collateral damage.  I guess it does make obvious that she has inherited her fathers sense of morality, but it’s telling that I simply find her annoying.

[Macbeth]

On 6/14/2018 at 2:32 AM, tennisgurl said:

I love the banter between Holden and "Miller" so much, its so weird and otherworldly, but also fun in how Miller is talking in this sort of sideways style, trying to use the context of Millers memory and Holdens worldview, while Holden is just trying to figure out what the ever loving fuck is actually happening here. 

I am not a fan of Thomas Jane and the nature of Miller's character irritated me throughout most of the series, but I really liked him here.

Poor Holden.  Even after agreeing to provide the key - he still has no clue.  I don't either, but the effects were cool.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Macbeth

[LilJen]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 10:22 PM, marinw said:

Also, naked Holden.

Naked Holden is super pale!

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 10:29 PM, raven said:

Two thumbs up!  Also, bonus Amos arms.

I want to know what the tattoos on his arms are about. it almost looked like Hebrew lettering?

[Holmbo]

Is this too silly of a post for this board?
I made it last week when I was home sick and bored.

[WearyTraveler]

LOL!!!

[SmithW6079]

On 6/20/2018 at 7:29 AM, AngelKitty said:

They are the same person. Her real name is Clarissa and her undercover terrorist name is Melba.

Clarissa isn't even a terrorist per se, in that she's not fighting for a cause. She just wants to kill James holden.

On 9/22/2018 at 11:55 AM, Holmbo said:

Is this too silly of a post for this board?
I made it last week when I was home sick and bored.

Should be lower on his hips to show off his "Apollo's belt." ?

[Holmbo]

@SmithW6079 Don't be greedy! You already have the original picture for that ?

[cleo]

Man this show. If they stick the landing, it'll be the best sci fi I've ever seen (not that I've seen a lot). But BSG was very good and just a nonsensical ending that made no sense, like all of it, Kara Angel and all. Kind of ruined the show for me.

-anyway my one main comment is the protomolecule as it was originally and on Wros just seems vastly different than the ring and this station. For one thing, they don't really seem alive and Miller kind if said that too.

So it was a leap from Eros/Venus to this. 

But anyway- like many I'm not into Melba and characters who hurt other people bc mommy and daddy were shitty are a hard pass with me usually. My parents were also shitty, that is not hyperbole, but I managed to get therapy rather than kill people heh.

Not into the Belter stuff at all

The guy killing himself- kind of weird but it also kind of really helped sell the impact and import of what was happening and how overwhelming it is. 

Melba- when she cracks her tooth or whatever it is it literally nauseates me, the whole cracking clicking eyes changing whatever sequence.

Edited August 29, 2022 by cleo

[wanderingstar]

In the midst of a re-watch of this show and just came to this episode. I'd forgotten about the young soldier, Nemeroff, dying by suicide. Kind of amazing that the show made me care so much about a character that had maybe 6 minutes of airtime. It was a good way to reinforce the genuine terror that accompanies the discovery of something like the Ring. I'm doing this rewatch with my sister, and I asked her if she'd go through the Ring like the characters in the show, and she said, "Maybe like 2 years after this" 😄