Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[xaxat]

On 10/20/2020 at 3:22 PM, starri said:

But Warner Bros does the same thing.  The wartime propaganda Looney Tunes are rarely seen on TV, and even the DVD releases carry content warnings.  And there's one that was on a few releases that was since withdrawn.  They also have a collection called the Censored Eleven that haven't been seen for over 50 years, because they're just in such poor taste.  There was talk of a DVD release about ten years ago, but that never ended up happening.

When I was in middle school, back in the seventies, I had a friend whose father was a professor of history specializing in WWII propaganda and had a collection of WB cartoons from that era. This developed into a hobby of collecting animated shorts and books aimed at children that were clearly racist, including some from the Censored 11. A group of parents thought it would be good for us kids to be enlightened, so they had him hold a class for us. Even though I haven't seen them in over forty years, I still remember the savage, yet casual, racism of shorts like "Bugs Nips the Nips" and "Coal Black and de Seben Dwarfs."

I learned about the racism of colonialism from his discussion about the Babar books!

[Trini]

The description for the in-production Three Thousand Years of Longing has me cringing:

Quote

Filming has officially begun on George Miller’s latest movie, Three Thousand Years of Longing, staring Tilda Swinton and Idris Elba. Though Deadline reports “plot details are being kept under wraps,” a synopsis on Production List states the story follows “a lonely and bitter British woman” who “discovers an ancient bottle while on a trip to Istanbul and unleashes a Djinn who offers her three wishes. Filled with apathy, she is unable to come up with one until his stories spark in her a desire to be loved.”

(Source, with links to the direct sources)

I'm sure the actors can elevate the material, blah blah blah; but my first reaction is 'wow, they're really going all in on the Magical Negro trope, huh?'.

[xaxat]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

The description for the in-production Three Thousand Years of Longing has me cringing:

(Source, with links to the direct sources)

I'm sure the actors can elevate the material, blah blah blah; but my first reaction is 'wow, they're really going all in on the Magical Negro trope, huh?'.

I think it's too early to tell. After all, Miller managed to make a Mad Max movie where Furiosa, a woman, was the hero. Not Max.

[Trini]

'Why Harry Shum Jr. thinks representation doesn't always have to center on race'

Quote

In recent years, the Asian American community has emphasized stories that have centered the Asian American experience or those with an all-Asian cast, including “The Farewell” and “Crazy Rich Asians.” This film is certainly not that. Shum may be front and center, but his race is barely a whisper in any of the dialogue. Any hints of an Asian identity come in scenes like one in which he makes several dishes incorporating Asian ingredients, but it does not seep heavily into the storyline.

But Shum, who was in “Crazy Rich Asians,” said he feels it is necessary for this form of representation to be folded into the Hollywood ecosystem. The lives of Asian Americans, for example, exist beyond the strict confines of the immigrant or community story, he said.

“I think what's beautiful about those stories is the fact that people get to see themselves and get to reflect on their family values and things that they've experienced, but also there is a huge, huge population of specifically Asian Americans that don't have that story, that don't have it, that has been here for generations and might not fully connect with those stories.”

Not including Asian Americans in all film genres can have unintended consequences for the community, Shum said. When Asian American faces remain in the roles that are be rooted only in the past, they risk staying “otherized” in the minds of viewers.

“I think what's important is that people get to see beyond what we have kind of associated ourselves with, and also other people have associated with us as well,” he said.

 

Not a new perspective. Like most things, there needs to be a balance; in this case, between not focusing solely on certain stories/experiences for the specific minority, and just ignoring race completely.

[Trini]

'Patty Jenkins Was Ready to 'Walk Away' From Wonder Woman 1984 Over Salary Dispute' :

Quote

“It’s all those years after Monster that I started to really notice, ‘Jesus Christ, I’m a woman filmmaker. I’m not a filmmaker, I’m a woman filmmaker.’ And it’s shaded so many things. When it comes to the industry, in what I’ve been offered and how I’m offered things, I’ve definitely noticed it,” Jenkins said. “It’s interesting as someone who never made any profit my entire career up until after Wonder Woman, but I was always at peace with it. I was like, ‘Hey I get it.’ But now I was like, ‘Listen, I’ve never made any money in my career because you always had the leverage and I didn’t.’ But now the shoe is on the other foot so it’s time to turn the tables.”

Jenkins was reportedly paid about $1 million base salary to direct the first Wonder Woman, which grossed over $400 million in the United States. As she noted during the interview, that amount pales in comparison to what several of her male counterparts have gotten during their transitions from indie darlings to blockbuster superhero movie directors. So she bartered for her fair pay, and she bartered hard. For the follow-up film, she reportedly negotiated around $9 million base pay, which is a record salary for women filmmakers.

“It was an easy fight to say, ‘This can’t be. It super can’t be. And it really can’t be on Wonder Woman.’ It was an interesting thing to do, but it was an easy thing to do in the fact I was dead serious,” she said. “If I can’t be victorious in that regard, then I’m letting everybody down. If not me, who?”

I'm glad she was able to make the sequel, AND get the appropriate pay!

The article just discusses a few quotes from a podcast interview Jenkins did; full interview and context here:

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Trini

[Spartan Girl]

Good for Patty Jenkins! She bailed out the DC movie verse she better damn well get paid what she deserves!!!!

[Ms Blue Jay]

The attitude that executives have towards female filmmakers is disgusting.

I've talked before about super huge, profitable franchises where a woman was "allowed" to direct the first film of the franchise, but for the second, third, etc. film a man always took over.  I think it's probably because the woman tried to negotiate a fair salary for the sequel after making so much money for the first film, and they were likely denied.  I know that in some cases, the female director "didn't get along" with the talent, like Mike Myers, E.L. James, etc. but ONCE AGAIN.  The attitude that a lot of people in Hollywood or orbiting it have towards female filmmakers (and I include other women) is disgusting!

And then there's the case of "Big Little Lies" where Andrea Arnold was given a chance to direct season 2 but apparently Jean Marc Vallee edited her work down to shreds?!!!!

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/07/big-little-lies-season-2-andrea-arnold-lost-creative-control-jean-marc-vallee-1202156884/

Edited December 23, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[Guest]

For the second year in a row the Golden Globes are sticking an American made film about Asian Americans in the foreign language category blocking it from being nominated for Best Picture. 

Lulu Wang, Daniel Dae Kim, Phil Lord And More Drag Golden Globes For Placing ‘Minari’ In Foreign Language Category

Quote

Yu was one of many who put the Golden Globes on blast when the news was released about Minari. Another was filmmaker Lulu Wang who was facing the same issue last year when her film The Farewell was regulated to Best Foreign Film at the Golden Globes.

“I have not seen a more American film than #Minari this year,” Wang tweeted. “It’s a story about an immigrant family, IN America, pursuing the American dream. We really need to change these antiquated rules that characterizes American as only English-speaking.”

Quote

Much of Minari is in Korean, but like Wang, many were pointing out how American this story is despite being in a foreign language. The nuance was being overlooked and people started bringing out receipts when it came to past Best Picture nominees for the Golden Globes when it came to what constitutes a foreign language and American film.

In a tweet, All My Life star Harry Shum Jr examined the English to German and French & Italian language ratio in Quentin Tarantino’s Inglorious Basterds which was roughly 30:70. “#Minari is an American film,” he wrote.

The Black List’s Franklin Leonard signed off on this: “Let us not forget that Inglorious Basterds was mostly not in English and was not classified the same way.”

To add to this, Alejandro Iñárritu’s Babel, which included five different languages, was nominated for Best Motion Picture – Drama at the Golden Globes in 2007. It can also be argued that the Lombardy-set Call Me By Your Name which includes a hefty amount of the Italian language, should have been considered a foreign language film but it was still nominated for Best Motion Picture – Drama in 2018.

 

[methodwriter85]

I really did enjoy Shelter for NOT going the sad route, which was almost always the route gay movies went during this decade. They had really good chemistry as well, and I like that they avoided a lot of the tropes that you had with a lot of gay movies at the time- no crushes on unattainable straight guys, no "let's show intimacy with a single dry kiss and a hug", and no wacky female best friend who just loves her gays. The characters felt like real people instead of tragic gays in tragic movies or funny witty horndog gays in the Eating Out-type sex comedies. 

Man, now if only they could get the Latter Days cast to reunite for a zoom call.  I'd die.

Edited December 27, 2020 by methodwriter85

[starri]

28 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

and no wacky female best friend who just loves her gays

No, and in fact, the girlfriend/beard had agency, and got to be appropriately angry AND then supportive.  That was incredibly refreshing.

As was the best friend, who you expect to be a douchebag, but only thinks it's weird that the guy Zach is dating his brother.

[methodwriter85]

1 minute ago, starri said:

No, and in fact, the girlfriend/beard had agency, and got to be appropriately angry AND then supportive.  That was incredibly refreshing.

As was the best friend, who you expect to be a douchebag, but only thinks it's weird that the guy Zach is dating his brother.

As much as I enjoyed Call Me By Your Name, I hated the way Marzia was treated. She's just thrown away and then shows up to tell Elio she still wants to be friends. It'd be one thing if she were just a rando, but they definitely hinted that they had been friends for a long time.

 

[Trini]

Joint interview at LA Times: 'Ava DuVernay and Peter Roth have a plan to diversify crews. And Hollywood is on board'

Quote

Through Array Alliance, the nonprofit arm of her company Array, DuVernay and her team have assembled a database of below-the-line talent designed to bridge the hiring gap for women and people of color in the entertainment industry. And with Roth’s help securing studio competitors such as Sony, Netflix and Disney, to sign onto and invest in the project, Array Crew is positioned to be a resource for executives and hiring managers throughout Hollywood amid the ongoing push for more inclusive crews.

Already in a soft launch stage, the searchable database so far features 2,500 profiles, which can be sorted by crew position, experience, location and more — think IMDb meets LinkedIn. The database is free to qualifying talent, who must have at least one verified credit. While the purpose of the database is to make it easier to find qualified women and people of color for crew positions, it’s open to everyone. It’s focused on U.S.-based talent, but there are plans to expand it to include the U.K. and Canada next year.

It marks one of Roth’s last initiatives as chairman of Warner Bros. Television Group. ....

 

[Luckylyn]

Wonder Woman 1984 and Issues with Consent and Bodily Autonomy -  I mostly enjoyed WW84 but this video covers the one particular aspect of it I really did not like.

Colonialism and The Lost World - I found this deep dive into the various adaptations and the historical background of colonialism really interesting 

 

[Trini]

Interview with Steven Yuen: https://variety.com/2021/film/news/steven-yeun-podcast-interview-phillipa-soo-over-the-moon-1234878544/

Just quoting the parts were he talks about Asian-American representation in Hollywood, etc:

Quote

The roles of Asian American Asians in Hollywood are not plentiful, and you could be the first Asian American nominated for best actor in 93 years. Can you talk about the grind of getting into this space as an actor?

Yeun: It really does start from basic, simple representation. Just clear out representation is the initial basis of just being able to see a vision of yourself., I think that opens the door and qualifies it for the system. It qualifies it for your parents. It qualifies it for yourself. When I was in college, I didn’t think I would pursue acting; I took the LSAT, MCAT, Teach for America. I just pushed all the buttons because I didn’t know what to do. But I was always drawn to acting and performance.

I’d seen John Cho start popping off, and it was really cool to watch him. He hadn’t gotten the shine that he deserved at the time, and it took a little bit for him over time. I watched him, and I was like, “Wow!” Here’s a Korean American actor that I’ve never seen before, and he’s on the screen, and it’s pretty incredible. He was the first one not to be objectified or fetishized. He was a new version of what an Asian man is seen as. He was something new and fresh and gave me a roadmap to emulate. I thought it was possible for me.

The first audition I had in Chicago was called “Awesome 80s Prom,” which was an immersive improvised show, where you have this John Hughes spectrum of characters like Ferris Bueller. Then you have your “Long Duk Dongs,” and I auditioned with Ferris Bueller’s opening monologue. And they said, “that was good. Can you do that all again in an Asian accent?” And I’ll be honest with you. I knew that I didn’t want to do that. The system had no clue that’s not what I wanted. We were just in a different time. And so I remember I did a shitty accent and phoned it, and they still wanted me anyway because that’s how far and few between Asian actors were. So they call, and they said, “We’d like to hire you.” And I said, “No.” And they got really mad. And I was like, “Oh, that’s not a good first step in this business. I pissed somebody off.”

Quote

With more Asians than normal in the awards space this year, are you excited for the future of Asian cinema, and can you tell the world what is so great about it?

Yeun: Well, I think this is a multifaceted answer to this question because on a surface level, what’s great about a wide net of Asian representation, especially coming from Asia, is harnessing the power of Asia through masterworks like “Parasite.” You see masterful directors from all over that are auteurs who transcend even the boundaries of their own nations. That is great. Representation at its base is very important. It expands in society, with one another, what someone can look like, and what they can do. We can all look like anything and do anything. We’re coming to understand that.

What becomes difficult is the immigrant life is the focus for us. It really is its own intrinsic, nuanced experience. It’s caught between two worlds, and it’s because those two worlds are the only ways in which we know how to speak about it. It’s either Asian or American. The real key aspect is, we tried to tell the honesty and truth of the point of view. Just that culture of being Asian American, just being of one culture, but completely raised in another. It’s what allows a lot of access for the viewer for our film. We got so granular and honest to our singular experience of being caught in between these two worlds. It allowed humanity to breakthrough. We weren’t burdened by the idea that we needed to make something super authentic to the culture.

I think a Korean audience from Korea will watch “Minari” and say, “that is the story of an American family.” And I think an American audience will watch “Minari” and say, “that’s the story of a Korean family.” And that’s the void that we’re caught in. We wanted to profess that this is an Asian American story, where it is American. But we don’t have that space of understanding carved out in society yet of what an Asian American story feels and sounds like. This representation at large of Asian faces and our humanity is great. I think that’s what “Parasite” and Chloe Zhao can capture, in speaking from her experience as a native of her home country, in a free human way. The American race dynamics do not burden them. When director Bong Joon-ho wakes up in Korea, he’s not saying, “I’m Korean,” he’s thinking, “I’m just a human being, and I’m going to go eat something now.” But here, I wake up, and I say, “I’m a human being, and I’m going to go eat something now.”

But then when I step outside my door, sometimes I’m reminded that I’m also a delineated version of an American, which is, I’m a Korean American or Asian American. And sometimes, you are constantly living in that place that doesn’t allow you to see yourself whole and true. Sometimes you’re busy just straddling the line or jumping to each side at any given point to feel comfortable. But I really want, and Isaac wants to be a part of carving out space in a uniquely ours narrative that is uniquely Asian American, that is uniquely, and specifically Korean American. And in doing so, I think it opens the door for people to see themselves in us, in our characters. This is a father. This is a mother. This is a family, and they’re just trying hard, and you can relate to that. There’s a little bit of difference between it and how it manifests, but it’s all the same.

 

[Popples]

Emma Thompson Says George Clooney Is 'Delightful,' But Double Standards In Rom-Coms Are Not

Quote

It’s completely acceptable for George Clooney, who is delightful, to have someone who is 40 years younger than him or 30 years younger than him. If I have someone playing opposite me in a romantic way, they have to exhume someone, because I’m 61 now. Do you see what I mean? It’s completely and utterly unbalanced.

 

[supposebly]

I have said it before but it bears repeating, I want to be her when I grow up.

[ApathyMonger]

Odd choice of example though; Clooney hasn't been in a movie with a love interest in a decade.

Edited January 12, 2021 by ApathyMonger

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 1/12/2021 at 2:22 AM, ApathyMonger said:

Odd choice of example though; Clooney hasn't been in a movie with a love interest in a decade.

Yeah, and he's not even one of the worst offenders of this trope, which I agree does happen way, way way too often.  I keep lists of this stuff on Letterboxd where the man is 10-40 - YES. 40 - years older than the love interest.

But George?  J.LO is 8 years younger than he is,  same with Catherine Zeta Jones,  Michelle Pfieffer is THREE YEARS OLDER than him (Love that!!!!!!!), Julia Roberts is only 6 years younger.

So George wouldn't even make my list!  George is actually pretty good with his love interests' ages, but I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

Ah, found one.  Vera Farmiga from "Up in the Air" is 12 years younger.

[ApathyMonger]

4 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Ah, found one.  Vera Farmiga from "Up in the Air" is 12 years younger.

The main one is Evan Rachel Wood in The Ides of March, but that's supposed to be inappropriate. (She's a college-age intern, he's a political candidate around 50).

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 hours ago, ApathyMonger said:

The main one is Evan Rachel Wood in The Ides of March, but that's supposed to be inappropriate. (She's a college-age intern, he's a political candidate around 50).

Oh, gross.  I saw that movie when it was released and retained nothing.

I never made it through Woody Allen's "Whatever Works", but Larry David is 73, and Evan Rachel Wood is 33.  They're 40 years apart!  For "Magic in the Moonlight", Colin Firth is 28 years older than Emma Stone.  

Edited January 13, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[xaxat]

9 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I never made it through Woody Allen's "Whatever Works", but Larry David is 73, and Evan Rachel Wood is 33.  They're 40 years apart!  For "Magic in the Moonlight", Colin Firth is 28 years older than Emma Stone.  

Setting aside the accusations of Ronan and Mia (which I tend to believe), Woody Allen is, at best, a very creepy guy.

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 hours ago, xaxat said:

Setting aside the accusations of Ronan and Mia (which I tend to believe), Woody Allen is, at best, a very creepy guy.

Well yeah.  

But there are other examples aside from Woody in Hollywood too.

Richard Gere is 22 years older than Winona Ryder - Autumn in New York

Sean Connery was 39 years older than Catherine Zeta Jones - Entrapment.

Will Ferrell is 16 years older than Zooey Deschanel - Elf.

Will Smith is 22 years older than Margot Robbie - Focus.

And on and on.

https://www.thetalko.com/15-movie-couples-with-big-age-gaps/

Edited January 14, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Danny Franks]

Daniel Craig addressed that when he was asked about Monica Bellucci playing a love interest in one of the Bond movies - the interviewer said something about Bond and older women, and Craig pointed out that Bellucci was only four years older than him, and thus not an "older woman" at all.

It's always been common in Hollywood. For example, Tom Cruise was 52 to Emily Blunt's 31 in Edge of Tomorrow and I doubt anyone ever noticed the gap. Partly because Cruise is so uncanny valley preserved and partly because it's just the norm.

[Dejana]

John David Washington has already had to defend the age gap with Zendaya for Malcolm & Marie and the movie isn't even out yet. He points out that she has been in show business much longer than him. Also, the movie was her idea, so if anything, she picked him. The story is about a director and his aspiring actress girlfriend, so it's not like the age difference is unrealistic. It apparently gets addressed in the movie.

Another thing is that Zendaya got her big break as a Disney kid and still plays a teenager on a TV show now, so some people can't deal with her playing an adult (I guess this is why there wasn't a huge objection to Zendaya/Zac Efron in The Greatest Showman, because he's also an ex-Disney kid). People say she looks like a child next to JDW, which I think is ridiculous. The near-ubiquity of twentysomethings playing teenagers in TV shows/movies for decades has skewed ideas of how teenagers actually look in real life. It's also funny to see the Zendaya fans saying, "No one complained about Jennifer Lawrence in Silver Linings Playbook!" I guess some of them really are too young to remember the years of people saying JLaw was getting roles that should have gone to older women, bless...

I get that large age gaps in films, if they only go in one direction, can be indicative of a system that easily discards women while endlessly propping up men. OTOH, adults in different age ranges can have a good rapport and even find love, if they want. Maybe they'll work as an onscreen couple; maybe they won't.

Frankly, more annoying (to me, anyway) is the subset of social media which, I swear, is "disturbed" and "uncomfortable" with any age gap greater than 2-3 years. I mean, good for you that you personally never ever want to date anyone that you couldn't have theoretically attended middle school with, but that does not mean every relationship with an age gap is grooming or has a troubling power imbalance. Do you want to raise the age of adulthood to 25 or what?

And IMO not enough people entertain the idea that maybe it's the men who are too old for some of these roles. For the last decade or two, Hollywood has treated men like they are boys until they are 30, so no wonder onscreen (and offscreen) pairings work out how they do. Even in the Golden Age, you would get the 50+ men with a woman in her 20s, but they still let guys in their 20s play actual adults in mainstream, big budget movies.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Dejana

[Oreo2234]

Quote

I guess some of them really are too young to remember the years of people saying JLaw was getting roles that should have gone to older women, bless...

IIRC at least one or two of JLaw's roles were intended for 30 something women so I understood that criticism. I don't blame her for taking them though. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Oreo2234

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Dejana said:

John David Washington has already had to defend the age gap with Zendaya for Malcolm & Marie and the movie isn't even out yet. He points out that she has been in show business much longer than him. Also, the movie was her idea, so if anything, she picked him. The story is about a director and his aspiring actress girlfriend, so it's not like the age difference is unrealistic. It apparently gets addressed in the movie.

Another thing is that Zendaya got her big break as a Disney kid and still plays a teenager on a TV show now, so some people can't deal with her playing an adult (I guess this is why there wasn't a huge objection to Zendaya/Zac Efron in The Greatest Showman, because he's also an ex-Disney kid). People say she looks like a child next to JDW, which I think is ridiculous. The near-ubiquity of twentysomethings playing teenagers in TV shows/movies for decades has skewed ideas of how teenagers actually look in real life. It's also funny to see the Zendaya fans saying, "No one complained about Jennifer Lawrence in Silver Linings Playbook!" I guess some of them really are too young to remember the years of people saying JLaw was getting roles that should have gone to older women, bless...

 I don't think that twelve years (the gap between Zendaya and Washington) is unrealistic at all, in real life or in movies. Especially not when it's addressed in the movie.

It is funny though, because Washington is considered a young, up and coming actor at 36, while a woman at the same age would already be starting to see feedback from casting directors like "too old for the part." It's also funny because Washington's love interest in BlacKkKlansman was played by Laura Harrier, who also played Peter Parker's love interest in Spider-Man: Homecoming... a movie that Zendaya is also in and she plays the love interest in the sequel.

There's the idea that people always stay the same age they were when they became famous, which might be why Zendaya is still seen as a teen, and why no one blinked at Zac Efron playing her love interest - both became stars in their teens and so there's a reluctance to see them age into adult roles.

I guess you could say that age in Hollywood is kind of nebulous up to a certain point - for women it's about forty but for men it's closer to sixty. This is changing a little bit now, with actors like Jessica Chastain and Charlize Theron proving that playing a leading woman doesn't end at forty (and there's another weird little quirk - Theron has been around for what seems like forever while Chastain is still seen as a relative newcomer. There's only two years between them).

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I guess you could say that age in Hollywood is kind of nebulous up to a certain point - for women it's about forty but for men it's closer to sixty. This is changing a little bit now, with actors like Jessica Chastain and Charlize Theron proving that playing a leading woman doesn't end at forty (and there's another weird little quirk - Theron has been around for what seems like forever while Chastain is still seen as a relative newcomer. There's only two years between them).

I think we’re really seeing the benefit of woman taking a greater role behind the scenes in movies. It’s no coincidence that both woman you mentioned have also become producers. As more woman are in decision making roles they are able to challenge the roles available for woman over 35. Resulting in other execs realizing audiences didn’t suddenly get tired of actress like Sandra Bullock, Reese Witherspoon or Nicole Kidman at 40. 

Now if only we could end the need for these 40 year old women to still look 25. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

13 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Daniel Craig addressed that when he was asked about Monica Bellucci playing a love interest in one of the Bond movies - the interviewer said something about Bond and older women, and Craig pointed out that Bellucci was only four years older than him, and thus not an "older woman" at all.

It's always been common in Hollywood. For example, Tom Cruise was 52 to Emily Blunt's 31 in Edge of Tomorrow and I doubt anyone ever noticed the gap. Partly because Cruise is so uncanny valley preserved and partly because it's just the norm.

Tom Cruise is notorious for being one of the worst offenders of this.  People certainly have noticed.  Just Google "Tom Cruise age gap movies".  There are a lot of articles about it. 

As Tom Cruise gets older, his romantic interests in film stay the same age.

It's continued on past this graph, in "American Made" and in "The Mummy".

https://filmschoolrejects.com/tom-cruise-movie-love-interests-age/

https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/celebrity/why-are-tom-cruises-love-interests-in-the-mummy-20-years-younger-than-him-20170523-gwbady.html

Edited January 16, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

12 hours ago, Dejana said:

Another thing is that Zendaya got her big break as a Disney kid and still plays a teenager on a TV show now, so some people can't deal with her playing an adult (I guess this is why there wasn't a huge objection to Zendaya/Zac Efron in The Greatest Showman, because he's also an ex-Disney kid). People say she looks like a child next to JDW, which I think is ridiculous. The near-ubiquity of twentysomethings playing teenagers in TV shows/movies for decades has skewed ideas of how teenagers actually look in real life. It's also funny to see the Zendaya fans saying, "No one complained about Jennifer Lawrence in Silver Linings Playbook!" I guess some of them really are too young to remember the years of people saying JLaw was getting roles that should have gone to older women, bless...

I totally didn't realize Zendaya and JDW were that far apart in age, because JDW is so new on the scene, but that makes sense.

Ugh, JLaw and Bradley Cooper are 16 years apart and they've been in 4 movies together already.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

10 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

 I don't think that twelve years (the gap between Zendaya and Washington) is unrealistic at all, in real life or in movies. Especially not when it's addressed in the movie.

To me it doesn't matter whether it's realistic or not.  For me, it's misogynistic to constantly see young women and older women as love interests in movies.  It's a lot more rare to see the reverse.  When you're constantly shown images that only young or younger women are desirable, it definitely does a number on our collective psyche.  When women get to a certain age in Hollywood and they become sexless matriarchs, but Sean Connery and Jeff Goldblum and Alec Baldwin can play love interests in their 60s and 70s, it sends definite messages about what women are worth to society and that people would rather not see them fully as human.

Women shouldn't be playing the mothers of actors who are the same age or 1 year younger than them, yet it's happening all of the time.

Whenever I bring up this discussion, someone always says "But Meryl Streep blah blah" and I just roll my eyes because Meryl Streep is like the best actor.  Not everyone woman is the best actor on the planet.  Of course she'll get some opportunities that 99.99% of women won't.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Luckylyn]

Male Celebrity Body Transformations- The Deeper Problem 

 

[Dandesun]

This was interesting to watch. I particularly liked how it brought to light the questions we're really not asking about the body images.

And some body transformations have been startling, Bale going from The Machinist to Batman Begins is a major one. Chris Evans is a kind of interesting case because he has said that getting into Cap shape got much more difficult as he got older. He seems to be one of those that has those naturally broad shoulders which not everyone has but I specifically remember watching the commentary track for Captain America: The First Avenger and it was mentioned that the scene where the pod opens and he's Big Strong Buff Cap was one of the first scenes they shot because he was in the fittest shape and wouldn't be able to maintain that over the course of filming. Training is one thing leading up to filming but once that happens they aren't able to keep the same schedule.

I also remember Natalie Portman talking about Hemsworth having to do quite a lot to maintain the muscle mass through the course of the first Thor. And during the Avengers press junkets someone asked Evans and Hemsworth how much time they spent in the gym, and guessed like 8 hours a day, and both of them shook their heads and said that wasn't the way to go. You could only do a couple of hours in order for the workouts to have effect. Doing too much too often causes everything to break down.

I recall Scarlett Johansson commenting on one of the various Marvel featurettes that she never lets herself get more than 5-7 pounds away from goal weight for the movies in case the call comes and you've got a start date.

Keeping in shape is one thing... but damn, comic book characters are not drawn realistically so it gets very dicey when trying to get an actual human to replicate that.

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, Dandesun said:

He seems to be one of those that has those naturally broad shoulders which not everyone has but I specifically remember watching the commentary track for Captain America: The First Avenger and it was mentioned that the scene where the pod opens and he's Big Strong Buff Cap was one of the first scenes they shot because he was in the fittest shape and wouldn't be able to maintain that over the course of filming. Training is one thing leading up to filming but once that happens they aren't able to keep the same schedule.

I remember hearing something similar for Civil War and the scene where he holds down the helicopter. Same thing it had to be shot on the first day because the couldn't maintain that look. The ones that always really get me are the ones that make no sense like Chris Pratt in Guardians of the Galaxy. He had the big shirtless scene in the first one and it was also a shoot on the first day thing. But based on the character am I really supposed to believe that Star Lord has a gym in his space ship and works out for hours every day. 

Of course the other thing that bugs me is when you hear how dehydrated stars have to be to get that kind of definition. I am surprised that there hasn't been a major super hero or action movie that has had to push back its release date because the star blew out his shoulder or something.

[Danny Franks]

7 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I remember hearing something similar for Civil War and the scene where he holds down the helicopter. Same thing it had to be shot on the first day because the couldn't maintain that look. The ones that always really get me are the ones that make no sense like Chris Pratt in Guardians of the Galaxy. He had the big shirtless scene in the first one and it was also a shoot on the first day thing. But based on the character am I really supposed to believe that Star Lord has a gym in his space ship and works out for hours every day. 

Of course the other thing that bugs me is when you hear how dehydrated stars have to be to get that kind of definition. I am surprised that there hasn't been a major super hero or action movie that has had to push back its release date because the star blew out his shoulder or something.

I'm reminded of something that was observed on a documentary I watched recently - in the 60s and 70s (and earlier) people might not really have much of a picture of what the leading stars looked like without their shirts on. The male physique wasn't ever a selling point for movies. Sure, they needed to be in decent shape and handsome, but bulging muscles just weren't a thing. Paul Newman didn't have them, Steve McQueen didn't, Humphrey Bogart, Sean Connery, Cary Grant etc. 

It was only in the 1980s that a muscled, macho physique became an important prerequisite for a movie star. Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger really built the template for it and, while it isn't always necessary, and you get action stars who look like 'normal' guys - Bruce Willis for example - the actors playing superheroes need to be huge, to fit the expectations of the audience. Someone like Dwayne Johnson, or even Chris Hemsworth, would have looked almost alien to movie audiences in the 70s.

Realistically, you'd expect Peter Quill to look more like Newman in Cool Hand Luke than like Arnie in Commando.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Realistically, you'd expect Peter Quill to look more like Newman in Cool Hand Luke than like Arnie in Commando.

I would settle for him looking like Hugh Jackman in X-Men compared to Jackman in every other X-Men movie.

I saw a great comment somewhere about Daniel Craig and the shape he has to get in to play Bond. It was something how you are basically expecting a 50 year old man to get into shape as if he were a 22 year old elite athlete. And it makes no sense.

[xaxat]

11 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

It was only in the 1980s that a muscled, macho physique became an important prerequisite for a movie star. Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger really built the template for it and

Reaching it's peak in 1987's Predator.

Quote

Duke: Before we shot every day, Arnold and his trainer and all of the big boys, they got up an hour and a half before breakfast and trained. It was this gigantic gym that Arnold shipped to Mexico in these gigantic trucks so that the [hotel] ballroom, that was our gym.

Davis: The first day, they said to me, "You should come work out with us." So Arnold knocked on my door at 5:30, woke me up. I went down. I started lifting with them and they all would start yelling at me to lift more weights and more reps. And that night, I was in so much pain that the next morning when they came to my door and started banging, I pretended that I slept through it so that I wouldn't have to lift with them anymore.

Thomas: I think that phrase "manly men" was coined down there. I think it was Arnold that kept saying (in Arnold voice) "manly men." You had that cast, and those guys were all pretty impressive. Then you had all the stuntmen who had to double these guys and do all of the stunts. So every morning you had all of these stuntmen and all the cast down there trying to get a good pump on. It was kind of comical, these guys are all trying to outdo each other.

 

[AimingforYoko]

24 minutes ago, xaxat said:

Reaching it's peak in 1987's Predator.

Quote

Duke: Before we shot every day, Arnold and his trainer and all of the big boys, they got up an hour and a half before breakfast and trained. It was this gigantic gym that Arnold shipped to Mexico in these gigantic trucks so that the [hotel] ballroom, that was our gym.

Davis: The first day, they said to me, "You should come work out with us." So Arnold knocked on my door at 5:30, woke me up. I went down. I started lifting with them and they all would start yelling at me to lift more weights and more reps. And that night, I was in so much pain that the next morning when they came to my door and started banging, I pretended that I slept through it so that I wouldn't have to lift with them anymore.

Thomas: I think that phrase "manly men" was coined down there. I think it was Arnold that kept saying (in Arnold voice) "manly men." You had that cast, and those guys were all pretty impressive. Then you had all the stuntmen who had to double these guys and do all of the stunts. So every morning you had all of these stuntmen and all the cast down there trying to get a good pump on. It was kind of comical, these guys are all trying to outdo each other.

 

I think both Jesse Ventura and Carl Weathers said the movie set was basically a giant dick-measuring contest.

[xaxat]

Who would have guessed that that movie would produce two future governors?

Edited January 21, 2021 by xaxat

[Anduin]

20 minutes ago, xaxat said:

Who would have guessed that that movie would produce two future governors?

They were both in the Running Man, too. And Sonny Landham had a crack at governor of Kentucky, but no joy there.

Outside of politics, the original Predator is the most macho movie I can think of, even in a genre known for that. You've got Arnie and Weathers arm wrestling, you've got just about everything Ventura says, then there's the big trap-setting montage. The above story doesn't surprise me at all.

[Trini]

On 1/16/2021 at 11:04 PM, Luckylyn said:

Male Celebrity Body Transformations- The Deeper Problem 

 

That video lost me in the first few minutes; didn't finish. Not sure what points they were trying to make.

But speaking of body transformations, the one I always thought was crazy was Taylor Lautner in the Twilight films. He was already an athletic teenager, but he had to gain like *checks internet* 30 pounds of muscle just to stay in the franchise. Not to mention being objectified; not just by fans, but the films and the marketing. Again, he was a teen.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Trini
grammar, clarity

[Dancing Queen]

I've seen two strange and unnecessary male body transformations in recent years.  

The first was Matt Damon in the latest Bourne film.  He's a spy, which likely limits his access to a local gym, but there he is, shirtless and big as the side of a barn.  Bourne needs to be able to outrun people or beat them in a fist fight, but those are functional fitness requirements of the job.  The aesthetic element of huge shoulders and six-pack abs is pure Hollywood. 

The second was Walton Goggins in the Justified TV series.  One scene that stuck in my mind had him shirtless in bed, just hanging out with his girlfriend, and I read an article where he said he didn't drink water prior to filming that day so he would look ripped.  His character was a former coal miner, but nothing about his current lifestyle and activities led me to expect him to have that level of visible musculature.  Still, the actor himself clearly felt that expectation. 

The rise of superheroes has pressured men playing those roles to have a certain extreme physique, which is certainly problematic.  However, not every character - or actor - needs to look like a bodybuilder.

One last thing:  Keanu Reeves - who has headlined two extremely successful action franchises in the last two decades - demonstrates a fierce, impressive athleticism while rarely appearing shirtless in these films.  I appreciate the fact that he is allowed to demonstrate what his body can DO without emphasizing how he LOOKS while doing it.

[Ms Blue Jay]

This is really interesting.  I never pay attention to this stuff, because I don't like these recent action films, I guess.  It obviously reminds me of how female actors are often anorexic or get surgery to "stay relevant".   The craziest thing is when models come to Hollywood, and lose weight and get plastic surgery to become actors.  It's happened time and time again and I can think of many examples.  Models are already supposedly perfect looking by most people's measures!  It's disgusting.

I know that they're receiving pressure to do so, from somewhere/someone, but it's rarely spelled out.  It's all kept so hush hush for reasons I can't understand.  And a lot of people refuse to believe it, and deny that it's happening, but it definitely is.  One of the rare times where it came to light was Portia de Rossi's autobiography.  All of the women on television in the 90s looked anorexic at some points - Ally McBeal, Friends, Will & Grace, The Practice, etc.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/erica-berman/beauty-ideals_b_5030288.html

Edited January 24, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Danny Franks]

On 1/22/2021 at 3:11 PM, Dancing Queen said:

I've seen two strange and unnecessary male body transformations in recent years.  

The first was Matt Damon in the latest Bourne film.  He's a spy, which likely limits his access to a local gym, but there he is, shirtless and big as the side of a barn.  Bourne needs to be able to outrun people or beat them in a fist fight, but those are functional fitness requirements of the job.  The aesthetic element of huge shoulders and six-pack abs is pure Hollywood. 

The second was Walton Goggins in the Justified TV series.  One scene that stuck in my mind had him shirtless in bed, just hanging out with his girlfriend, and I read an article where he said he didn't drink water prior to filming that day so he would look ripped.  His character was a former coal miner, but nothing about his current lifestyle and activities led me to expect him to have that level of visible musculature.  Still, the actor himself clearly felt that expectation. 

I wonder how much of it is studio mandated and how much is due to the vanity of the actors. Damon, for instance, would have felt a certain amount of pressure to look good for the last Bourne film (which should never have been made, by the way) but I can't imagine any studio execs ever went to him and said "you need to put on X lbs of muscle for this role, Matt.'

Which is another disparity, because I can't imagine that many actresses have the star power to choose to look a certain way in movies. Unless you're Charlize Theron in Monster you're probably not going to win a role unless you weigh less than 120lbs. and in the cases of both men trying to gain muscle and women trying to lose weight, it's really not good for their long term health.

So we're going to see the very odd juxtaposition of Chris Hemsworth's gargantuan arms justifying his superhuman strength in Thor 4 (More Thor) and Natalie Portman having the same superhuman strength while being whippet-thin. If the strength is superhuman, why does he need the muscles? And if he needs the muscles, why won't Portman?

I've always thought that the superhero body type should be the same for men and women, at least when it comes to how they're drawn in comic books - they should look like heptathletes and decathletes. Multi-discipline athletes with excellent functional muscles but not ridiculously huge (except for the likes of the Hulk, of course).

12 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

This is really interesting.  I never pay attention to this stuff, because I don't like these recent action films, I guess.  It obviously reminds me of how female actors are often anorexic or get surgery to "stay relevant".   The craziest thing is when models come to Hollywood, and lose weight and get plastic surgery to become actors.  It's happened time and time again and I can think of many examples.  Models are already supposedly perfect looking by most people's measures!  It's disgusting.

I know that they're receiving pressure to do so, from somewhere/someone, but it's rarely spelled out.  It's all kept so hush hush for reasons I can't understand.  And a lot of people refuse to believe it, and deny that it's happening, but it definitely is.  One of the rare times where it came to light was Portia de Rossi's autobiography.  All of the women on television in the 90s looked anorexic at some points - Ally McBeal, Friends, Will & Grace, The Practice, etc.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/erica-berman/beauty-ideals_b_5030288.html

I'm not an advocate of plastic surgery, and often can't really tell who's had it and who hasn't, but I do know of one case where it has to have been transformative. Stana Katic had a nose job and went from pretty-but-normal to stunning. She never would have been the co-lead on Castle without it. I'm sure that was her choice, and it paid off.

Other women will surely have been told 'change this, work on that' if they want success. Similar to the code that wrestling promoters used to use - "work on your upper body" pretty much meant "get bigger, even if you have to use steroids."

The anorexic look is one I just never got at all. It did not look good. Calista Flockhart and Portia de Rossi both looked like they were sick, as did many other women.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Danny Franks

[Kel Varnsen]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

So we're going to see the very odd juxtaposition of Chris Hemsworth's gargantuan arms justifying his superhuman strength in Thor 4 (More Thor) and Natalie Portman having the same superhuman strength while being whippet-thin. If the strength is superhuman, why does he need the muscles? And if he needs the muscles, why won't Portman?

Thor being so ripped has never made sense to me. All Asgardians are supposed to be super strong (with Odin being the strongest even though he looks like a feeble old man). So 1) why does Thor need the giant arms and shoulders and 2) how does he even work out. Like if lifting a car is easy even for an average person from Asgard what can he lift to build muscle?

I think a lot of it comes from the actors. I saw an interesting interview with Terry Crews on the weekend and he said on the set of The Expendables he couldn't work out with other cast members because it would get way too competitive and he didn't want to get hurt. 

[AimingforYoko]

On 1/25/2021 at 5:09 AM, Danny Franks said:

So we're going to see the very odd juxtaposition of Chris Hemsworth's gargantuan arms justifying his superhuman strength in Thor 4 (More Thor) and Natalie Portman having the same superhuman strength while being whippet-thin.

Cate Blanchett is nowhere near as big as Hemsworth and Hela kicked Thor's ass.

[Lugal]

On 1/25/2021 at 4:09 AM, Danny Franks said:

So we're going to see the very odd juxtaposition of Chris Hemsworth's gargantuan arms justifying his superhuman strength in Thor 4 (More Thor) and Natalie Portman having the same superhuman strength while being whippet-thin. If the strength is superhuman, why does he need the muscles? And if he needs the muscles, why won't Portman?

I think in the case of Thor it comes partly from the mythology.  The original myths made a big deal about how big and strong Thor was.  As for Portman, waif-fu has been a staple of pop culture for decades.  Woman who look like they can kick ass (Lucy Lawless, Rhonda Rousey, Katheryn Winnick) seem to be the exception for small slight women like Summer Glau.  Who was a ballerina, and ballerinas may be thin, but they are solid muscle.

[Trini]

'Clifton Powell Says He's Repeatedly Been Told He's 'Too Black' For Roles'

https://www.essence.com/articles/clifton-powell/

Quote

In a recent interview with The Jasmine Brand’s Robin Ayers, Powell discussed how pervasive racism prevails in Hollywood and revealed a disheartening anecdote of his personal experience with it during casting. “If ya’ll knew how many movies I had…people come to me, and they say, ‘Well, you should be bigger than you are.’ Well if I tell you how many times they said I was ‘too black for the role,’ you wouldn’t believe it,” said the 64-year-old.

Powell says he shys away from speaking on racial injustice to avoid “using the race card” and receiving backlash from the predominantly white industry. He continued, “If I tell you the truth, I’ve been blocked from a lot of movies. One big movie, the network told the producer, ‘We think he’s so dark he’s gonna scare everybody.’”

 

[Popples]

"Harry Potter" Actor Katie Leung Says Publicists Told Her To Deny Racist Abuse While Filming.

 

[Ms Blue Jay]

There are so many insane stories linked under that one.

Thandie Newton Was Almost In 2000's "Charlie's Angels," But Dropped Out After A Racist Conversation With A Producer

https://www.buzzfeed.com/shylawatson/thandie-newton-turned-down-charlies-angels

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Bastet]

Has anyone else watched Moxie?  It's a feel-good coming of age film that is ultimately frustrating because it not only centers the white character (seriously, imagine this film told from Lucy's or Claudia's perspective instead of Vivian's), but explicitly acknowledges the fact RiotGrrrl feminism largely failed to address intersectionality issues and includes BIPOC, LGBT, and disabled girls in this Gen Z tale ... while never once having Vivian examine the privileges her white, able-bodied, straight, cisgender self has when compared to those peers.

Their experiences are woefully underdeveloped; they serve only to wake Vivian up to the fact the sexism her mom has been talking about her whole life is no less pervasive now, never to expose her to the way racism, ableism, heteronormativity, and transphobia make life even harder for many of the other Moxie girls.  Even when Claudia straight-up explains - to the girl who's been her best friend since elementary school - that her rebellion options (as a first-generation Asian girl raised by a mom who has sacrificed and struggled to provide her with an education) are different than Vivian's (a financially comfortable white girl whose mom encourages protest) because of race.

Vivian always shares the stage in Moxie meetings and at the big reveal in the end, and she doesn't talk over the other girls, but the film focusing on her (Claudia is the only other character we ever see at home; everyone else we see when Vivian is watching them) and how she finds her voice (she wasn't an outcast, but not really on anyone's radar, either; she'd been voted "most obedient" and was of the "just put your head down and carry on" persuasion) leads to myopic storytelling.

It's telling that for the time Vivian opted to stay anonymous (she publishes and distributes a 'zine around her high school's campus, spotlighting various sexist activities that are shrugged off or condoned by teachers and administrators and calling for various solidarity actions to let girls know they're not alone), it was Lucy (Afro-Dominican) who was accused and Claudia (Chinese) who stepped up to take the fall on behalf of Moxie as a whole.  But Vivian never reckons with that, nor does any other character point it out.  That's a problem in general, but especially with a film aimed at young teens.

I know nothing about the book on which this was based and had never heard of the film, so I went into it with zero expectations when my sleepless self clicked on a Netflix recommendation in the middle of the night.  It's nice to see girls working together, especially for this worthy a goal, and not one of them ever even thinks of fighting over a guy.  (There is a budding romance for Vivian, but it's not remotely the primary focus in her life, and one of the main reasons she's attracted to him - and her friends are happy about her dating him - is that he's a feminist ally.)  But I came out of it thinking more about the stories it chose not to tell than the one it did. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Bastet