Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[methodwriter85]

When they announced that the Valley Girl reboot was genderflipping Randy's best friend into a lesbian punk, I thought, "Oh, cool, that means they're going to make the Fred/Stacey storyline into a lesbian one. Stacey being a closeted lesbian is a neat update they could have never done in actual 1983. Cool." They didn't do that at all because the reboot pretty much ONLY focuses on the Julie/Randy story and gets rid of all the side plots. All we get with Mae Whitman's lesbian character is her getting called a dyke, reading Rubyfruit Jungle in the background, and briefly making eyes with a Val who might be interested. It just felt like a waste of Mae Whitman. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by methodwriter85

[xaxat]

 

[AimingforYoko]

Great interview with Thandie Newton on Vulture. (Spoiler: Amy Pascal strikes again.)

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 7/7/2020 at 4:12 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Great interview with Thandie Newton on Vulture. (Spoiler: Amy Pascal strikes again.)

Twitter went so insane for this that people kept posting screenshots of it before I even got a chance to read it.  In my opinion, just simply RT the original author's tweet!  Who among us cannot read an article yet have interest to just read some screenshots?  How annoying.   The article was really good and informative. 

[Trini]

Interview with director Gina Prince-Bythewood, at Deadline:

Quote

“I love the fact that it was organically diverse in that it’s a group of warriors from different backgrounds and cultures and sexual orientations and genders that have come together to save the world,” said Prince-Bythewood. “That’s the world I want to live in. That’s the world that I want. So to be able to reflect that in a real way and make it feel grounded and real, which was my hopeful intent, it’s just like everything I wanted.”

With The Old Guard, Prince-Bythewood becomes the first Black woman to undertake a big-budget comic book film, and the weight of that is not lost on her.

“I cannot fail because there’s so few of us that any failures are so highlighted and spotlighted and I don’t want to hurt the next person that’s going to be coming behind me. I want to do what Patty Jenkins did and have them say, ‘Oh damn we were wrong. And actually, you know what? Black people, we can do anything. So give us more opportunities to make any film we want to make.’ ”

Quote

... Hollywood has also committed to increasing diversity. Do you see the doors sort of opening more for women in this space?

PRINCE-BYTHEWOOD: I do. I give all props to Patty Jenkins. The amount of pressure she was under and she came through in such a big way. I loved Wonder Woman and her success absolutely cracked the door open for a group of us. I was very excited about this year. This is the first time in Hollywood history that six women were at the helm of these big blockbuster films in the same year. And all of these films were focusing on female characters as well. I’m praying that their films get to have the theatrical release that has been promised. Obviously, we’re not in control of that, as we’re being made aware of more clearly every day.

But this did absolutely feel like a key change and the key is, as we know, success begets success. So it’s my hope that The Old Guard does well, it’s my hope that Mulan does well and Black Widow, so that we can just erase this narrative that Hollywood has that, one, women don’t like watching these movies, and two, that women don’t have a desire to make these movies, and the third one, that women can’t handle making these films. Filmmakers make films no matter what genre. You tell a good story first.

 

[Luckylyn]

Evil Queens: A Queer Look At Disney History

 

[Trini]

Women Rocking Hollywood 2020: Supporting Female Helmed Film and TV | Comic-Con@Home 2020

Quote

What is so great about working as executive producer and director on a Frank Miller/Tom Wheeler project? What is it like to direct Charlize Theron and Kiki Layne in complicated fight scenes? How does working with women above and below the line make a film with Kelvin Harrison Jr, Tracee Ellis Ross, and Dakota Johnson more nuanced and believable? What does a producing director on Queen Sugar do? Find out all this and more, including why supporting women in film is so vital to equality for all, and how fans can make a difference, on this exciting female filmmaker-focused panel.

Watch Nisha Ganatra (director: Late Night, The High Note), Lauren Wolkstein (director: Cloak & Dagger, supervising director: Queen Sugar), Gina Prince-Bythewood (writer/director: Love and Basketball, director: The Old Guard), Zetna Fuentes (director: Jessica Jones, executive producer/director: Cursed) and Alison Emilio (director of ReFrame) as they share their experiences and insights. Moderated by Leslie Combemale (creator: Women Rocking Hollywood, freelance writer: AWFJ.org).

 

 

[aradia22]

Quote

Unrequited: A History of Queer Baiting 

Is this really worth watching? I do love youtube video essays. But an hour and 30 minutes is... a lot. 

[Luckylyn]

39 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

Is this really worth watching? I do love youtube video essays. But an hour and 30 minutes is... a lot. 

I found it worth it for the film history aspect.  You could watch that and skip the later part talking about modern examples.

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Is this really worth watching? I do love youtube video essays. But an hour and 30 minutes is... a lot. 

I skipped most of the history lesson.  He does make some incorrect points in that  or he is unaware of Daphne Du Maurier's sexuality and how that influenced her novel Rebecca and the subsequent film.  Also, in the modern section he leaves out the multitude of straight women who write slash fan fiction.  To me, if you are using fan fiction as a criteria to determine if a tv show or movie is queer-baiting you need to add that caveat.  Is it really queer-baiting if the primary audience for a specific pairing is straight white women?  

I also did end the video when he got to Captain America and Bucky.  I know Stucky shippers exist, but I don't see queer-baiting in that relationship.  I see a powerful example of a healthy male friendship free of toxic masculinity.  

[angora]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I know Stucky shippers exist, but I don't see queer-baiting in that relationship.  I see a powerful example of a healthy male friendship free of toxic masculinity. 

I agree with that. I understand why people ship Steve and Bucky, and I see where they're coming from with the "if Bucky was female, they'd be romantically involved" argument (and while that's probably true, it's also partially a product of Hollywood's lack of imagination when it comes to male and female characters having deep platonic friendships.) I'd like to see more LGTBQ representation with meaty/complex stories too, but I don't think every close m/m or f/f friendship is required to become romantic. And in this case, I don't see this portrayal being in any way disingenuous or misleading, which is what spells queer baiting to me - playing coy and dropping hints while never having the guts to commit and "go there."

[Luckylyn]

I do think it’s a problem that same sex female platonic relationships are allowed to be close emotionally and include physical affection but with same sex male friendships have to be more restrained because of toxic masculinity.  Two women can hug and it’s just friendship.  Two men hugging simply out of friendship is rare to see.  I really like the scene towards the end of Bye Bye Love where Paul Raiser hugs Matthew Modine.  It was a nice moment of friendship that men don’t get to have onscreen often.

This conversation is making me think of a video someone made analyzing the impact if Spock/Kirk slash fiction on Star Trek lasting in public consciousness leading to a revival on film and television.  The youtuber quoted someone from Star Trek (I think a writer) about how he saw slash fiction/shipping as a problem because it was mostly straight women which he considered to be fetishizing male pairings.   Is straight women shipping same sex pairings a problem or a benefit for support of lgtbqa representation? I am a straight women who has shipped a variety of pairings including same sex ones.  There’s a certain emotional investment in wanting a pair to end up together that maybe goes back to my affection for romance novels.  
 

Another youtuber talked about how a lot of people might ship a same sex couple simply because the writers’ preordained couple wasn’t developed well so people get attached to alternate pairings of the opposite sex or same sex that may have not have been intended. For me, it’s about the chemistry mostly and sometimes the writing supports that and sometimes it doesn’t.  Poe/Finn was not the plan for Disney but the actors sparked and I definitely think Issac played his scenes with that in his mind in The Force Awakens.  I shipped them and was disappointed Disney wimped out of letting Poe/Finn happen while apparently thinking having a blink and you’d miss it same sex kiss between characters the audience doesn’t know was somehow going to appease Poe/Finn fans.
 

I never shipped Steve and Bucky.   I saw Steve and Bucky like brothers.   I do think Bucky/Falcon could be a great snark to love romance but doubt Disney will go there which sucks because I think they have a spark.

[Blergh]

Sayonara (1957) made impassioned pleas for compassion for marriages and bonds between U.S. Americans and Japanese .Red Buttons and Miyoshi Umeki  would win Best Supporting Oscars for their roles as starcrossed lovers trying to fight for what was right.  This happened despite Mr. Buttons normally being a broad comedian instead of a dramatic, romantic character  and Miss Umeki being the first Asian to win an Academy Award for acting.

 

However, there's one odd casting note in this, playing a Japanese kabuki performer was none other than the Mexican- born Ricardo Montalban (yes, later Mr. Roarke then Khan of Star Trek infamy). While Mr. Montalban did a fairly good job, one has to wonder why they didn't consider casting any Japanese-American performers for the role. 

[Luckylyn]

The Good Earth (1937) The movie was based on a book about people in China.  When Anna Mae Wong found out the book was becoming a movie she thought she finally was going to get a great leading role but that did not happen.  The leading characters were white people in yellow face.  
 

It was disappointing that Parasite got so much acclaim and awards yet not one cast member was nominated despite some great performances.

Best Actress So White

From Anna Mae Wong to Awkwafina

 

[Silver Raven]

Nia DaCosta tapped to direct Captain Marvel 2.

https://deadline.com/2020/08/captain-marvel-sequel-nia-dacosta-director-1202992213/

 

[BetterButter]

Zoë Saldana Apologizes for Playing Nina Simone in 2016 Biopic: 'I Know Better Today'

[KatWay]

5 minutes ago, BetterButter said:

Zoë Saldana Apologizes for Playing Nina Simone in 2016 Biopic: 'I Know Better Today'

I'm glad she apologised and did some soul searching, but I mean she knew better then too. She got a ton of criticism from everyone involved, the family, the studio, online, for her decision to play Nina Simone with darkening her skin and prosthetics. She damn well knew it was wrong she just didn't care and didn't think the backlash would be as big as it ended up being.

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, KatWay said:

I'm glad she apologised and did some soul searching, but I mean she knew better then too. She got a ton of criticism from everyone involved, the family, the studio, online, for her decision to play Nina Simone with darkening her skin and prosthetics. She damn well knew it was wrong she just didn't care and didn't think the backlash would be as big as it ended up being.

Yeah she knew. I really expected her to know better. 

[Trini]

'Black Stuntwomen Are Ready To Fight — Will Hollywood Let Them?'

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The focus on the optics of stunt people in blackface is understandable — it’s an easy-to-understand visual cue of the prevalence of systemic racism. It’s also a symptom of much deeper problems. Black stunt performers — and Black stuntwomen in particular — face an uphill battle when it comes to getting work at all. Until recently, most of the discourse around diversity and inclusion in entertainment focused on getting more Black actors in lead parts and behind the camera in above-the-line roles, like writer or director. It’s only now that the lack of diversity in less prominent, below-the-line positions — like hair and makeup artists, assistant directors, and stunt performers — is getting some much-needed attention. 

<...>

If only it were that simple. Black stuntwomen continue to face disproportionate barriers to enter the profession, a challenge that only gets more pronounced as they seek to advance in their careers. In order to get a better idea of the challenges they face, Refinery29 spoke to eight Black women working in stunts, who described workplace incidents ranging from micro-aggressions to outright hostility, as well as revealed how a lack of opportunities for professional mentorship inhibits their ability to increase their visibility and, in turn, get more jobs. 

 

[methodwriter85]

I guess it's progress that Harriet Tubman wasn't played by Tessa Thompson in a bad makeup job?

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 8/6/2020 at 2:56 AM, KatWay said:

I'm glad she apologised and did some soul searching, but I mean she knew better then too. She got a ton of criticism from everyone involved, the family, the studio, online, for her decision to play Nina Simone with darkening her skin and prosthetics. She damn well knew it was wrong she just didn't care and didn't think the backlash would be as big as it ended up being.

Thank you for saying this.  I'm sorry, but her "apology" is bullshit.  There was a HUUUUUUUUUUUGE outcry leading up to her doing the movie and she stubbornly went forward anyway.  

[starri]

On 7/29/2020 at 7:51 AM, Luckylyn said:

The Good Earth (1937) The movie was based on a book about people in China.  When Anna Mae Wong found out the book was becoming a movie she thought she finally was going to get a great leading role but that did not happen.  The leading characters were white people in yellow face.  

Hollywood REALLY screwed her over.  Although interestingly, she actually was the first Asian-American actor (of either gender) to be the lead in a TV series, way back in the early 50s.  Unfortunately, the show was on the long-dead DuMont network, and is lost to history, because most of the DuMont's archives were thrown into the Hudson River when it went out of business.

[Trini]

From LA Times: 'Hollywood’s entertainment industry unions have a whiteness problem' <-- Pretty informative.

[Luckylyn]

Why the Help?

 

[starri]

On 7/28/2020 at 11:31 AM, aradia22 said:

Is this really worth watching? I do love youtube video essays. But an hour and 30 minutes is... a lot. 

Skip it, and just watch The Celluloid Closet.  He's basically cribbing directly from it.

[Neurochick]

On 8/6/2020 at 2:56 AM, KatWay said:

I'm glad she apologised and did some soul searching, but I mean she knew better then too. She got a ton of criticism from everyone involved, the family, the studio, online, for her decision to play Nina Simone with darkening her skin and prosthetics. She damn well knew it was wrong she just didn't care and didn't think the backlash would be as big as it ended up being.

I didn't read this apology.  I thought it was very wrong for her to play Nina Simone, I once met Nina Simone's daughter in the 1970's, she's around my age.  I know some might not accept her apology and that's okay.  But if you don't accept it, what should the woman do?  The movie has already come out, it's done. 

I'm in a weird place with this.  I thought it was wrong, but I also realize that no one does the right thing 100% of the time, none of us are perfect. 

[aradia22]

Quote

Why the Help?

I love her channel so much. I jumped in because of the Oscars stuff (and specifically the old Hollywood stuff) but she's been doing a great job with her recent content. I know she doesn't want to claim space as an authority in conversations about race and ethnicity but part of what I like about her channel is that it's not just her opinions. There are so many opinion channels on youtube and film/literary analysis that has some validity but is really just a text-based justification of a specific person's interpretation of a piece of media. But BKR brings the RESEARCH. Yum, yum, yum. Give me those CITATIONS.

[Trini]

At Deadline, 'New Study Finds Hollywood Studios Could Lose Money From Movies That Lack Diversity'

Quote

The report which was published today analyzed 109 movies from 2016 to 2019 and found that movie studios can expect to lose up to $130 million per film when their offerings lack authentic diversity in their storytelling. Researchers found that large-budget films (a budget of $159 million or more) are subject to a significant cost in the opening weekend box office for a lack of diversity.

They estimate a $159 million movie will lose $32.2 million, approximately 20% of the its budget, in first weekend box office, with a potential total loss of $130 million, 82% of its budget. For a $78 million budget movie will lose $13.8 million in its opening weekend for a lack of diversity, with a potential total loss of $55.2 million, 71% of its budget.

“We asked, what is the cost of lacking diversity? Hollywood is a business, and no business wants to leave money on the table,” said senior author Yalda T. Uhls, a UCLA adjunct assistant professor of psychology and founder and executive director of the Center for Scholars and Storytellers. “While increasing numerical representation behind and in front of the camera is critical, truly empowering people from diverse backgrounds is the key. For example, make sure the writers room is open to dissenting opinions, that a wide net is cast for hiring, and that younger, less-tenured voices are encouraged.”

In order to compile the data, the researchers used a metric for authentic and diverse storytelling called Authentically Inclusive Representation (AIR) that represents the inclusion of diverse voices, people and cultures both in front and behind the camera. Using Mediaversity Reviews, researchers ensured their ratings were comparable to another robust source of diversity ratings that captures numerical race and gender diversity in key cast members and writers, directors and producers. The researchers also compared Mediaversity ratings to the critical acclaim websites, Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes and found Mediaversity ratings are highly correlated with those of Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes.

To no surprise, small-budget films lead the charge when it comes to diversity, dramatically surpassing big-budget pics on AIR. The analysis looked at films such as Barry Jenkins’ Moonlight from 2016 (budget: $4 million, total box office: $26 million) and Greta Gerwig’s Lady Bird from 2017 (budget: $10 million, total box office: $48 million).

“Storytelling that lacks AIR in race, gender and sexuality can have immediate and significant costs,” said Gerald Higginbotham, a UCLA psychology doctoral student, and co-author of the report.

The researchers analyzed the first weekend U.S. box office results because these numbers closely capture audience demand before word-of-mouth, reviews and the release of newer films impact attendance. Uhls points out that the first weekend box office, particularly for wide releases, typically accounts for about 25% of total box office. Any reduction in box office in the initial weekend would typically impact the film’s total financial success.

“While our findings are specific to box office, we believe we captured broadly the more immediate costs of lacking AIR, which is relevant to other kinds of releases and types of content,” Higginbotham said.

 

Read the study findings directly here: https://www.scholarsandstorytellers.com/research-reports

Edited October 14, 2020 by Trini

[Trini]

From NY Comic Con, a conversation about the changing landscape for Black superheroes:

Quote

TV Guide editor Keisha Hatchett, a contributor to TV Guide's package "Rise of the Black superheroes" moderates a conversation with influential Black women changing the face of superhero shows. Black women are at last taking up space in superhero shows -- space that was previously mostly male and almost always white. We're joined by Keisha Hatchett; writer/producer Aida Croal; journalist and geek influencer Karama Horne a.k.a.- theblerdgurl; actor/stuntwoman Carrie Bernans; and Emmy-winning director/producer Neema Barnette.

 

[AimingforYoko]

Every member of Margot Robbie and Christina Hodson's screenwriting lab has sold a feature film.

Margot Robbie definitely seems like someone who gets it.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 10/14/2020 at 1:21 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Every member of Margot Robbie and Christina Hodson's screenwriting lab has sold a feature film.

Margot Robbie definitely seems like someone who gets it.

[Trini]

'Disney+ Strengthens Disclaimer About 'Harmful' Stereotypes...'

Quote

When the streamer first debuted in November 2019, the films in question — which also include Fantasia and Lady and the Tramp — featured a shorter content warning that read, “This program is presented as originally created. It may contain outdated cultural depictions.”

Now, when users press play on a movie that features racist or insensitive content, the following 12-second disclaimer appears ahead of the film: “This program includes negative depictions and/or mistreatment of people or cultures. These stereotypes were wrong then and are wrong now. Rather than remove this content, we want to acknowledge its harmful impact, learn from it and spark conversation to create a more inclusive future together. Disney is committed to creating stories with inspirational and aspirational themes that reflect the rich diversity of the human experience around the globe.”

The disclaimer also links to Disney’s Stories Matter initiative, which aims to create “dialogue on history that affects us all” and give voice to communities that “have been erased or forgotten altogether.”

 

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Trini said:

'Disney+ Strengthens Disclaimer About 'Harmful' Stereotypes...'

 

It’s depressing how many comments I see online questioning what in those movies could possibly be racist. Or comments that “it’s not that bad.” 

[Kel Varnsen]

3 minutes ago, Dani said:

It’s depressing how many comments I see online questioning what in those movies could possibly be racist. Or comments that “it’s not that bad.” 

Not that bad really? I watched Peter Pan with my kids years ago, and it was  bad. I am now trying to think if there are any classic golden age disney movies shouldn't have this kind of thing. And really what is the harm in a warning. I am thinking my daughter is almost 10 and I think if she saw that kind of warning on a disney movie she would probably ask about it and would be interested in hearing an explanation.

 

[Dandesun]

On 10/17/2020 at 9:15 PM, Dani said:

It’s depressing how many comments I see online questioning what in those movies could possibly be racist. Or comments that “it’s not that bad.” 

If it doesn't affect you, it's often easy not to notice. 

Growing up in the 70s there were a lot of cartoons that depicted various cultures in deeply racist ways. In particular, the Tom & Jerry cartoons where things would blow up in someone's face and they'd be this horribly racist caricature of a little black girl, with hair pulled back in a bunch of little ribbons. I didn't understand it because I didn't know any black people that remotely looked like that. I'm sure I laughed at it because it was a silly, cartoonish look but I honestly didn't know that it was anything more than a cartoonish thing. I grew up watching Sesame Street and Electric Company and Mr. Rogers,  Persons of color were just... people.

I also didn't understand the hub-bub about Dumbo because the crows wound up being the only ones to help the little elephant! Getting older, yes, I get what both of those things are about and it's awful and cringey. I still say, though, that the crows had consciences. Yes, they made fun of Dumbo at first but when Timothy yelled at them and told them about his life, they felt bad and came up with a way to make him believe in himself.

Sure as hell better than that group of uptight, obviously white elephant bitches.

Sometimes, it's just flat out ignorance and when you shine a light on it, people realize how fucked up it is. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Dandesun said:

If it doesn't affect you, it's often easy not to notice. 

Growing up in the 70s there were a lot of cartoons that depicted various cultures in deeply racist ways. In particular, the Tom & Jerry cartoons where things would blow up in someone's face and they'd be this horribly racist caricature of a little black girl, with hair pulled back in a bunch of little ribbons. I didn't understand it because I didn't know any black people that remotely looked like that. I'm sure I laughed at it because it was a silly, cartoonish look but I honestly didn't know that it was anything more than a cartoonish thing. I grew up watching Sesame Street and Electric Company and Mr. Rogers,  Persons of color were just... people.

I also didn't understand the hub-bub about Dumbo because the crows wound up being the only ones to help the little elephant! Getting older, yes, I get what both of those things are about and it's awful and cringey. I still say, though, that the crows had consciences. Yes, they made fun of Dumbo at first but when Timothy yelled at them and told them about his life, they felt bad and came up with a way to make him believe in himself.

Sure as hell better than that group of uptight, obviously white elephant bitches.

Sometimes, it's just flat out ignorance and when you shine a light on it, people realize how fucked up it is. 

This is so true and I think that’s part of the insidiousness when it’s included in cartoons. I’ve had a similar experience. I’m Asian and as a kid I loved the Siamese cat song from Lady and the Tramp. When I heard they were removing it from the remake I was disappointed. Then I watched it again and discovered it was Peggy Lee singing and I understood but didn’t think it was that bad. Then I watched a video pointing out the similarities between the cats and Mickey Rooney playing a Japanese man and now I can’t even stomach watching the song. I understand that reason for thinking it’s not that bad and  it doesn’t bother me much. 

The thing that really bothers me is the people who are not affected and yet think they are the final arbiter on what’s racist.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Guest

[Neurochick]

I think the disclaimer at least might provoke a discussion.  

[starri]

I have never understood why Disney fans don't seem to understand that the company might have very good reasons for making sure endorse parts of their movies and make sure that people consider the content and the context in which it was presented, part of film history or no.

And that's before we get to Song of the South, which is the hill people want to die on despite my memories of its final re-release being that it was FANTASTICALLY boring.

But Warner Bros does the same thing.  The wartime propaganda Looney Tunes are rarely seen on TV, and even the DVD releases carry content warnings.  And there's one that was on a few releases that was since withdrawn.  They also have a collection called the Censored Eleven that haven't been seen for over 50 years, because they're just in such poor taste.  There was talk of a DVD release about ten years ago, but that never ended up happening.

[Dandesun]

Song of the South may be boring but there's a lot there that is just a mess. And a significant portion of that is behind the scenes, At this point, it's got this bizarre aura to it that 'it's the most racist thing in the Disney catalog' and will, therefore, never see the light of day. It would be nice if they could figure out a way to portray the folk tales that came to America via the slave trade and then shifted from retelling by slaves on the plantations and continued on in the antebellum, reconstruction and Jim Crow south in a manner that was respectful of the people that lived and survived those periods but I don't know how they can do it. Especially since most of what is left is what white people took from the black citizens in a post Civil War era and made money off of them.

It's a complex situation that requires delicacy and patience and hard work and, frankly, I don't trust ANY corporation to handle it in the way it should be.

And this corporation, and understand I have a generational love of Disney but I have to be realistic about them too, has also buried Song of the South as much as possible in the last few decades and yet also built one if it's most popular theme park rides around it. Then there's the merchandise. Make no mistake, they've made plenty of money off of Song of the South while simultaneously hiding it in the basement and decrying it's existence.

I mean, good on them for finally deciding to change the theme to The Princess and the Frog, I guess? I think that's long overdue because even though Tiana is a regular feature around New Orleans Square at Disneyland (well, when it was open) she got overshadowed very quickly by the computer generated heroines that immediately followed. Tiana deserves a fuckton more love than she gets at the parks.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, starri said:

And that's before we get to Song of the South, which is the hill people want to die on despite my memories of its final re-release being that it was FANTASTICALLY boring.

Thank You! I was started to feel like I was losing my mind seeing people claim the movie was a classic. Setting aside the obvious race issues, the story is just awful. The movie wasn’t locked away for 40 years and the most interesting thing about was that it was controversial. 

2 hours ago, Dandesun said:

And this corporation, and understand I have a generational love of Disney but I have to be realistic about them too, has also buried Song of the South as much as possible in the last few decades and yet also built one if it's most popular theme park rides around it. Then there's the merchandise. Make no mistake, they've made plenty of money off of Song of the South while simultaneously hiding it in the basement and decrying it's existence.

I’m a huge Disney fan but I firmly believe that it being racist isn’t the reason it was locked away. It’s been locked away because it makes Walt look bad. Disney likes to pretend that Song of the South is bad in retrospect and they can’t claim that if the real story of the movie becomes widely known. 

[Kel Varnsen]

18 minutes ago, Dani said:

 I’m a huge Disney fan but I firmly believe that it being racist isn’t the reason it was locked away. It’s been locked away because it makes Walt look bad. Disney likes to pretend that Song of the South is bad in retrospect and they can’t claim that if the real story of the movie becomes widely known. 

I would kind of love it if Disney said that while Song of the South is a terrible and racist movie, they are also keeping it in the vault as a business decision because any money they would make from people dying to see it would only be a fraction of what they would lose from people upset that they did. The kind of funny thing is I am pretty sure that I saw Song of the South as a little kid back in the 80's on one of the last releases. Of course that was back in the day when for the most part the only movies for kids were Disney re-releases. It can't have been that good since I have almost no memory of it.

[Annber03]

I honestly can't recall ever seeing that movie, either. I want to say I might've seen a clip of it once on something? But even that, I'm not certain. 

[starri]

It got released on home video in Europe, so it's really only in the US that it's been locked down for the entire time.  I just remember being on a high school trip to the UK in the mid-90s and someone who had a PAL VCR back home buying a copy....which I find very uncomfortable in retrospect.

[calliope1975]

I also saw SOTS in the 80's, and I have a bootleg DVD of a French VHS that I got from friends who lived in France that I got in the early 00's. It's wildly problematic, to say the least, and I get why they've vaulted it forever in the US. 

[Guest]

For anyone interested in Song of the South’s history I have to recommend the You Must Remember This podcast series on the movie. It very extensively covers the subject and race issues in Hollywood at the time. It’s fascinating and does a great job of explaining why the movie is such a problem. 

[starri]

10 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I also saw SOTS in the 80's, and I have a bootleg DVD of a French VHS that I got from friends who lived in France that I got in the early 00's. It's wildly problematic, to say the least, and I get why they've vaulted it forever in the US. 

I'm honestly surprised people handwave it being worth it for the music and animation.  "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" is based on a racist song from the 1830s which also influenced minstrel shows.

I can maybe, MAYBE buy the argument that in an academic setting, it makes sense to discuss both its place in history (modern people clamoring for its release always overlook that the NAACP and other prominent Black leaders of the day had problems with it then, resulting in protests at screenings) and the combo of live action and animation (even though both Disney and other studios had already done that).  For the general public?  Nope, leave it buried.

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, starri said:

I can maybe, MAYBE buy the argument that in an academic setting, it makes sense to discuss both its place in history (

As far as the academic thing goes, I wonder if like film museums or fancy libraries have copies of it (either European versions or the actual prints that theatres used)? Or after the last release in the 80's did disney destroy all the film prints?

[Blergh]

In addition to the rather blatant racist caricatures (and the ironic part that the adult white people are depicted as  less likable or sympathetic than the African-Americans ), one sobering detail that can't be ignored about Song of the South is that barely  twenty years after starring in this movie, the young performer Bobby Driscoll would be found having died homeless of addiction issues in a deserted East Village tenement. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Blergh said:

In addition to the rather blatant racist caricatures (and the ironic part that the adult white people are depicted as  less likable or sympathetic than the African-Americans )

I wouldn’t consider that to be irony. That’s actually part of what makes Song of the South so very bad and insidious. It gives people something to point at and say, “See it’s not that bad. He’s the good guy. It’s progressive. It’s actually a good portrayal of black people.” All the while showing those same “heroes” being happily held in their subservient place. 

[Neurochick]

8 hours ago, Blergh said:

In addition to the rather blatant racist caricatures (and the ironic part that the adult white people are depicted as  less likable or sympathetic than the African-Americans ), one sobering detail that can't be ignored about Song of the South is that barely  twenty years after starring in this movie, the young performer Bobby Driscoll would be found having died homeless of addiction issues in a deserted East Village tenement. 

And he was buried on Hart Island, in Potters Field.