Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[Cobalt Stargazer]

5 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

For me it isn't that I think romance is bad, but it seems that there is ALWAYS romance.  Like it has to be there.  No, it doesn't.  You do not need a romantic partner to be "complete", happy, fulfilled, etc.  I'd just like it to sometimes not be part of the story.  You can save the world without falling in love.  

*rubs hands together in antici..........pation*

Tell that to Sarah Connor.

The entire point of the first Terminator movie is not only to keep Sarah alive, but to keep Sarah alive so that she can get pregnant with and give birth to John, who was supposed to be the savior of the human race once Cyberdyne became dangerous.

'Thank you, Sarah, for your courage through the dark years. I can't help you with what you must soon face, except to say that the future is not set. You must be stronger than you imagine you can be. You must survive, or I will never exist.'

Sarah's incarceration in the second movie is part of what leaves John vulnerable to being killed, since he's the one who insists that he and his protector have to free her from the hospital. That she was already in the process of escaping, and that she harshly chastises John for making the attempt to get her out, isn't the point. Is she less heroic because her borderline delinquent adolescent son and his floppy hair did his damnedest to help her, having realized that she was telling the truth all along? Is she less tough and resourceful because she and Kyle loved a lifetime's worth in the few hours they had together, resulting in said borderline delinquent adolescent son?

I realize I'm talking about the gold standard here, and yes the more recent installments of the franchise are pretty bad to terrible, but that doesn't nullify my point. As an 80's kid, I dislike if not resent the implication that one of the greatest movie characters of all time is automatically less so because she needed a man to protect her, then fell in love with that man. That's a little more important than just "being complete", I'd think. And yes, I've been refining my theory for a while, why do you ask? :-)

[Trini]

40 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I realize I'm talking about the gold standard here, and yes the more recent installments of the franchise are pretty bad to terrible, but that doesn't nullify my point. As an 80's kid, I dislike if not resent the implication that one of the greatest movie characters of all time is automatically less so because she needed a man to protect her, then fell in love with that man. That's a little more important than just "being complete", I'd think. And yes, I've been refining my theory for a while, why do you ask? :-)

Whoa -- nobody said that.

Okay, you're not wrong on the rest, and congrats for picking out the one instance in an action movie where two characters getting it on is an integral plot point. However, I think the point that @aquarian1 was making was that a romance (love interest/etc.) subplot isn't necessary for every story, but yet seems to on the checklist for most (aspiring) Hollywood blockbusters.

No one's trying to diss Sarah; she's awesome.

[FormerMod-a1]

Exactly, I wasn't talking about a specific movie, I wondered where the Sarah Conner reference came from.  Just all movies in general.  I want Hollywood to make some examples where it's not a plot or subplot or a reason for someone being some way or other (bad break up leads to cynicism, or new romance means things are personal, etc).  It doesn't even have to be that many.  The majority of movies could still have them, just not all please.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

Whoa -- nobody said that.

Okay, you're not wrong on the rest, and congrats for picking out the one instance in an action movie where two characters getting it on is an integral plot point. However, I think the point that @aquarian1 was making was that a romance (love interest/etc.) subplot isn't necessary for every story, but yet seems to on the checklist for most (aspiring) Hollywood blockbusters.

No one's trying to diss Sarah; she's awesome.

Not directly saying it, perhaps, but isn't it all of a piece? Because I thought it was very telling when one of the main complaints about Trainwreck was that Amy decided that, horror of horrors, Aaron could have value as a human being and to stop being a semi-asshole every minute of her life. You know what its called when that happens to male characters? Growth.

Let's consider Knocked Up. Why anyone would want to be saddled with Katherine Heigl I don't get, but whatever. It takes Seth Rogen's Ben almost the whole movie to get his shit together, but he does it, and the movie ends on a positive note. Blah blah, fatherhood-cakes, fine, but why is it considered a negative thing if a female character decides she actually wants to be with some guy?

[FormerMod-a1]

I never said it was bad, I just said I don't want all movies to feature it.  I thought that was clear.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 26/07/2016 at 0:10 AM, Jazzy24 said:

What I'm more worried about is how the characters will be written. T'Challa is one of the smartest marvel characters, he's the richest and a king from Africa. Wakanda is a Affican nation that has little to no outside influence so I hope they don't put an American spin on it. 

But I have a lot of faith in Marvel, they actually know their characters. 

I am wondering about that too. Christopher Priest, who wrote the comic always talked about how it was a story about an African character, not an African-American  character. Hoping that will show up in the movie

[Luckylyn]

I am not a fan of romances where it feels tacked on like the producers are filling out a checklist.  I'd rather have no romance than a contrived one.  I really need the romance to come off as organic and the characters to have chemistry.

Corbin's love for Leeloo in The Fifth Element ended up saving the world because it inspired her to believe that humanity is capable of more than killing.  Love was essential to the plot.  

[slf]

14 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

For me it isn't that I think romance is bad, but it seems that there is ALWAYS romance.  Like it has to be there.  No, it doesn't.  You do not need a romantic partner to be "complete", happy, fulfilled, etc.  I'd just like it to sometimes not be part of the story.  You can save the world without falling in love.  

Oh God, I have two nephews that love to come over and watch action and scifi/fantasy movies with me and every single time I find myself struggling not to roll my eyes at the tacked-on romance. Pick one, any of them. The Transformers movies, Battleship, Jurassic World, etc. And it's not just those types of movies, it's dramas and comedies too. Personally I don't think that Girl With A Dragon Tattoo, for example, required romantic interest between the leads. Why did they feel the need to add a romantic subtext in V for Vendetta (it was unnecessary and kind of creepy)? And why do movies 'made for women' always have to have romance? Andie in The Devil Wears Prada did not need a boyfriend and she damn sure should've dumped the one she had. 

Now there are movies where it works. Terminator, obviously. Pacific Rim worked really well, they had great buildup and an actual connection. But they're, imo, exceptions. (I say that as someone who loves schmaltzy romances and watches Ladyhawke and The Cutting Edge at least once a month.)

[Luckylyn]

One issue is that sometimes the only way to have a woman included in the film is as the love interest.  There are screen writers and directors who don't know how to include a woman in a story unless she's the love interest.   A woman could be part of the story in a different capacity.  We have buddy movies with male leads (Bad Boys) and female leads (Ghostbusters 2016).  We need more movies with a male/ female bonding platonically.  Captain America Winter Solider with Steve/ Natasha is one.  Connie/Joe in Three of Hearts is another example.  I love that at the end of the movie Joe 

Spoiler

Doesn't get the girl but has gained a great friend in Connie.

[slf]

Quote

A woman could be part of the story in a different capacity.  We have buddy movies with male leads (Bad Boys) and female leads (Ghostbusters 2016).  We need more movies with a male/ female bonding platonically. 

Agreed completely.

Edited July 28, 2016 by slf

[Rick Kitchen]

I think Steve Trevor is the love interest in Wonder Woman.  :)

[Luckylyn]

6 hours ago, Rick Kitchen said:

I think Steve Trevor is the love interest in Wonder Woman.  :)

That's true.  There are times when a man's purpose in a movie is to be the love interest.  

Alien had no romance, and it's a great movie.  So although I love romance it doesn't have to be in every movie for me to like it.

Aliens did have that flirtation between Ripley and Hicks that I really enjoyed.  I'm still bitter about what Alien3 did to Hicks and Newt.  I like to pretend it didn't happen and that Ripley, Hicks, and Newt became this badass family.

[Princess Sparkle]

9 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

One issue is that sometimes the only way to have a woman included in the film is as the love interest.  There are screen writers and directors who don't know how to include a woman in a story unless she's the love interest.   A woman could be part of the story in a different capacity.  We have buddy movies with male leads (Bad Boys) and female leads (Ghostbusters 2016).  We need more movies with a male/ female bonding platonically.  Captain America Winter Solider with Steve/ Natasha is one.  Connie/Joe in Three of Hearts is another example.  I love that at the end of the movie Joe 

  Hide contents

Doesn't get the girl but has gained a great friend in Connie.

That's why I was a bit bummed that Tom Cruise & Emily Blunt kissed in Edge of Tomorrow (though, to be fair, I guess the kiss was an Emily Blunt adlib and wasn't written in the script).  Up until that point, I thought they'd done a really good job of showing a non-romantic relationship between those two, and that there was mutual admiration and respect - the kiss was superfluous and unnecessary. 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Princess Sparkle

[topanga]

10 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

One issue is that sometimes the only way to have a woman included in the film is as the love interest.  There are screen writers and directors who don't know how to include a woman in a story unless she's the love interest.   A woman could be part of the story in a different capacity.  We have buddy movies with male leads (Bad Boys) and female leads (Ghostbusters 2016).  We need more movies with a male/ female bonding platonically.  Captain America Winter Solider with Steve/ Natasha is one.  Connie/Joe in Three of Hearts is another example.  I love that at the end of the movie Joe 

  Reveal hidden contents

Doesn't get the girl but has gained a great friend in Connie.

I liked that in The Pelican Brief movie, the two main characters (Played by Julia Roberts and Denzel Washington) did not get romantically involved. And that's in contrast to the John Grisham novel, in which the two characters do hook up. In the movie, I like that in the movie, being on the run and facing life-or-death scenarios didn't automatically make the two characters horny. To be fair, I believe the original script included a love screen, but Denzel nixed it. In any event, I think it made the movie better. 

[slf]

5 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

Aliens did have that flirtation between Ripley and Hicks that I really enjoyed.  I'm still bitter about what Alien3 did to Hicks and Newt.  I like to pretend it didn't happen and that Ripley, Hicks, and Newt became this badass family.

Yes! I picked up on that undercurrent and it's one of my favorite aspects of Aliens; there's mutual respect/admiration and attraction but the movie doesn't jam romantic scenes in there because both of them have far more important things to do. (Between this and Terminator, I had a serious crush on Michael Biehn when I was a kid. Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley? Well done, dude.) 

[xaxat]

This is kind of puzzling. 

Set in China, with a predominately Chinese cast. Directed by acclaimed Chinese director Zhang  Yimou . (Has he ever directed an English language film?) From Legendary Pictures, which is a subsidiary of a Chinese corporation. 

And it stars Matt Damon?

I would actually be much more inclined to see this if the lead was a Chinese actor I had never even heard of. 

[Athena]

14 hours ago, xaxat said:

This is kind of puzzling. 

Set in China, with a predominately Chinese cast. Directed by acclaimed Chinese director Zhang  Yimou . (Has he ever directed an English language film?) From Legendary Pictures, which is a subsidiary of a Chinese corporation. 

And it stars Matt Damon?

I would actually be much more inclined to see this if the lead was a Chinese actor I had never even heard of. 

The movie also stars Willem Dafoe and another actor American actor, but it's largely set and filmed in China. Legendary Pictures is an American film studio which was bought out this year by a Chinese Corporation. This will be Yimou's first English language film, but he's one of the most famous Chinese directors living at the moment (he also directed the Beijing 2008 Olympic opening and closing ceremonies).

I think this is a case where Hollywood and China are making a movie explicitly targetting money from both box offices. Hollywood has been trying to actively court Chinese audiences in the last several years e.g. the recent Transformers movies, Kung Fu Panda series. The Chinese have started to buy international film studios and they want in on the market share in North America. Hollywood actors are more well known internationally so by casting Damon, they get his star power in North America and Europe.

As a co-production movie written largely by Americans, the Chinese can also cut it so that it can appeal to their own domestic market and regulations (the CCP still has final say) and have flexibility in editing for the international markets.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I just came here to say that Matt Damon is the worst

[Trini]

Thought it was worth mentioning here that Kiersey Clemons has been cast as Iris West in the upcoming The Flash movie -- a character that has been a white, redhead in the comics.

There's also Will Smith playing Deadshot in Suicide Squad who is also white in the comics; but star power may have factored into that more than casting for diversity.

[festivus]

5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I just came here to say that Matt Damon is the worst

I don't really mind him but I just had to quote you cause that made me lol. I always liked Ben Affleck better. This aint the UO thread though so I'll just back on out of here.

[Luckylyn]

19 minutes ago, Trini said:

Thought it was worth mentioning here that Kiersey Clemons has been cast as Iris West in the upcoming The Flash movie -- a character that has been a white, redhead in the comics.

There's also Will Smith playing Deadshot in Suicide Squad who is also white in the comics; but star power may have factored into that more than casting for diversity.

Iris is played by Candice Patton on the tv show.  So there's already a precedence for a black actress in the role.

[xaxat]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

There's also Will Smith playing Deadshot in Suicide Squad who is also white in the comics; but star power may have factored into that more than casting for diversity.

Suicide Squad is really diverse. Smith, Viola Davis, Jay Hernandez, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje (not gonna lie, had to copy paste that one), Karen Fukuhara, Adam Beach. . . Did I forget anyone?

[Rick Kitchen]

1 hour ago, xaxat said:

Suicide Squad is really diverse. Smith, Viola Davis, Jay Hernandez, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje (not gonna lie, had to copy paste that one), Karen Fukuhara, Adam Beach. . . Did I forget anyone?

Common, Raymond Olubowale, Corina Calderon, Alex Meraz.

[slf]

Constance Wu came for Hollywood and Matt Damon:

Quote

“We have to stop perpetuating the racist myth that [only a] white man can save the world,” Wu wrote in a lengthy tweet Friday, a day afterthe film’s first trailer was unveiled.

Wu, who is Taiwanese-American, lamented the underrepresentation of Asians and Asian-Americans in prominent screen roles. “Our heroes don’t look like Matt Damon,” she wrote. “They look like Malala. [Gandhi]. Mandela. Your big sister when she stood up for you to those bullies that one time.”

She also took issue with the notion that actors of color can’t sell tickets, writing, “Money is the lamest excuse in the history of being human. … Why not TRY to be better? If white actors are forgiven for having a box office failure once in a while, why can’t a [person of color] sometimes have one? And how COOL would it be if you were the movie that took the ‘risk’ to make a POC as your hero, and you sold the s‑‑‑ out of it?! The whole community would be celebrating!”

Edited July 30, 2016 by slf

[Zuleikha]

I love Constance Wu's activism generally, but I am really over people ranting and critiquing based off of trailers. We have no idea at this point how accurately the trailer is portraying the plot and characters. We know that Damon (and actor of color Pedro Pascal) are in key roles. We don't know that they're portrayed as saviors or that Damon is the one to save the world or even that he's the one leading the Chinese soldiers in a fight against the monsters. Damon's probably the most significant name in a lead role (I think William Defoe is an equally large name, but his role may be smaller), so it is logical that the production company would focus the trailer on him, even if there's an equally important Chinese actor or even if Damon's character is more of a blunderer.

The movie is directed by a Chinese director and features a primarily PoC cast. I think when a movie is bringing the diversity, we should give it the benefit of the doubt. If it comes out and reviews indicate that yes, it's a White Savior movie, fine, tear it to shreds. But what's the point of doing it when we don't know for sure? This movie may be delivering exactly what she's calling for.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Activism isn't about being happy with scraps or being thankful for what comes your way, though.  She's speaking up for what she believes in and she's going to in go hard.  

Matt Damon is the star, his face is all over the promotion.  People keep tweeting out the posters and the ads - it's all him.  I've never seen another actor's face.  Yet it's about the Great Wall of China.  To me it's pretty self-explanatory.

If you don't judge a movie based off a trailer, how do you know what to see?  I won't say a movie is "shit" based off of a trailer, but the point of a trailer is to sell tickets and give a basic idea.  Constance feels insulted that Matt Damon is the face of the movie campaign and I think that's fair.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[topanga]

On 7/28/2016 at 6:54 PM, xaxat said:

This is kind of puzzling. 

Set in China, with a predominately Chinese cast. Directed by acclaimed Chinese director Zhang  Yimou . (Has he ever directed an English language film?) From Legendary Pictures, which is a subsidiary of a Chinese corporation. 

And it stars Matt Damon?

I would actually be much more inclined to see this if the lead was a Chinese actor I had never even heard of. 

I have no idea what the movie is about, but--I wonder if it's a similar situation to what Don Cheadle described, when his European distributors told him he needed to add an international start to his all-black cast. The thing is, there are huge Chinese movie stars out there. Maybe we haven't heard of them, but aren't today's movies all about the global market anyway, primarily China?

[Zuleikha]

Activism isn't about being happy with scraps or being thankful for what comes your way, though.  She's speaking up for what she believes in and she's going to in go hard. 

I never said anyone should be happy with scraps. I said, people should wait until they actually KNOW there's something to criticize before they do it, especially when a movie actually IS bringing the diversity people were looking for. It's like when people criticized Ghostbusters for Leslie Jones' character--which upset Leslie Jones a lot based on her tweets--and then when the movie came out, a lot of those same writers said actually her character was great and handled well. So what was gained by critiquing early?

If you don't judge a movie based off a trailer, how do you know what to see?  I won't say a movie is "shit" based off of a trailer, but the point of a trailer is to sell tickets and give a basic idea.

That's a separate issue. Paying money to see is different from critiquing. Sure, decide whether or not to see it based on the trailer (and the reviews, which you'll have by that point). But as competent adults, we should all understand that trailers rarely provide enough information to do an actual media critique. We don't even know the plot of this movie at this point or why the non-Chinese characters are there. What we do know is that it's an alternate history of some kind; it features a primarily Chinese cast; the non-Chinese cast members include two PoC actors; it's directed by a Chinese director, and was co-produced by a Chinese production company. It's not like the movie can't be criticized after it's released, so wait until you can do it from a standpoint of knowledge.

 Constance feels insulted that Matt Damon is the face of the movie campaign and I think that's fair.

I disagree that she criticized the marketing. Her comments are about the actual story, of which she knows nothing. I agree that it's fair game to criticize using Matt Damon solely as the face of the movie campaign. I also think the marketing team that put the trailer together  misread the current climate of the US. I think the trailer should have given us more of Pedro Pascal, for sure, and at least some of the Chinese characters. I also think the trailer should have included why the non-Chinese characters are there, so we're not all going, "what the f--- is Matt Damon doing in a movie about the Great Wall." I get why Damon would be featured because he has the most name recognition in the US, but we're just not in the time anymore where that's the most important factor.

[Rick Kitchen]

7 hours ago, topanga said:

I have no idea what the movie is about, but--I wonder if it's a similar situation to what Don Cheadle described, when his European distributors told him he needed to add an international start to his all-black cast. The thing is, there are huge Chinese movie stars out there. Maybe we haven't heard of them, but aren't today's movies all about the global market anyway, primarily China?

The advertising in China will almost obviously be different from the advertising in the United States.  You can't expect a movie to draw in the United States if your advertising concentrates on an actor who's unknown in the US, even if they're a huge Chinese star.

[slf]

13 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I love Constance Wu's activism generally, but I am really over people ranting and critiquing based off of trailers. We have no idea at this point how accurately the trailer is portraying the plot and characters. We know that Damon (and actor of color Pedro Pascal) are in key roles. We don't know that they're portrayed as saviors or that Damon is the one to save the world or even that he's the one leading the Chinese soldiers in a fight against the monsters. Damon's probably the most significant name in a lead role (I think William Defoe is an equally large name, but his role may be smaller), so it is logical that the production company would focus the trailer on him, even if there's an equally important Chinese actor or even if Damon's character is more of a blunderer.

The movie is directed by a Chinese director and features a primarily PoC cast. I think when a movie is bringing the diversity, we should give it the benefit of the doubt. If it comes out and reviews indicate that yes, it's a White Savior movie, fine, tear it to shreds. But what's the point of doing it when we don't know for sure? This movie may be delivering exactly what she's calling for.

Which assumes Wu hasn't researched the plot of this film. Perhaps she has and knows it's about: "the mysteries behind the construction of The Great Wall in China as we follow two 15th century British soldiers who get caught up in the havoc caused by some inhuman element that the builders are trying to keep out." I'm sure there will be several Chinese characters who do something heroic but I don't see the point in giving Hollywood the benefit of the doubt that this isn't going to get really white-saviory. According to Collider this movie was thought up by Max Brooks and Thomas Tull (both of whom are white) and is being produced by an Asian-based offshoot of Tull's Legendary Pictures, was originally to be directed by Edward Zwick (who is white) and star Henry Cavill. I'm sure it was always supposed to be Asian supporting characters (so did The Last Samurai, it was still a racist pile of dog poo). Hollywood has done movies like this before. 

2 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I disagree that she criticized the marketing. Her comments are about the actual story, of which she knows nothing. I agree that it's fair game to criticize using Matt Damon solely as the face of the movie campaign. I also think the marketing team that put the trailer together  misread the current climate of the US. I think the trailer should have given us more of Pedro Pascal, for sure, and at least some of the Chinese characters. I also think the trailer should have included why the non-Chinese characters are there, so we're not all going, "what the f--- is Matt Damon doing in a movie about the Great Wall." I get why Damon would be featured because he has the most name recognition in the US, but we're just not in the time anymore where that's the most important factor.

I disagree, I think she went after the marketing as well:

Quote

Money is the lamest excuse in the history of being human. So is blaming the Chinese investors. (POC's choices can be based on unconscious bias too) Remember it's not about blaming individuals, which will only lead to soothing their lame "b-but I had good intentions! but...money!" microaggressive excuses. Rather, it's about pointing out the repeatedly implied racist notion that white people are superior to POC and that POC need salvation from our color via white strength. When you consistently make movies like this, you ARE saying that. YOU ARE. Yes, YOU ARE. YES YOU ARE. Yes dude, you fucking ARE. Whether you intend to or not. We don't need salvation. We like our color and our culture and our own strengths and our own stories. (If we don't, we should) We don't need you to save us from anything. And we're rrrreally starting to get sick of you telling us, explicitly or implicitly, that we do. Think only a huge movie star can sell a movie? That that has NEVER been a total guarantee. Why not TRY to be better? If white actors are forgiven for having a box office failure once in awhile, why can't a POC sometimes have one? And how COOL would it be if you were the movie that took the "risk" to make a POC as your hero, and you sold the shit out of it?! The whole community would be celebrating!! If nothing else, you'd get some mad respect (which is WAY more valuable than money) So MAKE that choice. I know that overcoming your own bias and doing something different takes balls....Well don't you WANT balls? Look. I know there are lotsa POC who honestly don't care. Who think I'M being crazy. Well excuse me for caring about the images that little girls see, and what that implies to them about their limitations or possibilities. If you know a kid, you should care too. Because we WERE those kids. Why do you think it was so nice to see a nerdy white kid have a girl fall in love with him? Because you WERE that nerdy white kid who felt unloved. And seeing pictures of it in Hollywood stories made it feel possible. That's why it moved you, that's why it was a great story. Hollywood is supposed to be about making great stories. So make them.

I think she's right on several accounts, including that "we need a big recognizable name to sell this movie" bs, which ranks up there with "sex sells" as one of the biggest lies Hollywood tells to excuse its own biases. Pacific Rim made over $400 million at the box office at the box office and of the two leads only one was relatively well-known in the US (Charlie Hunnam, who is still a non-entity to the average American). When they made Star Wars, both the new ones and the old ones, they chose actors and actresses largely unknown to the average movie-goer. Ellen Ripley was only Sigourney Weaver's second film role and Alien killed it at the box office. Studios don't always put a well-known, seasoned actor out front and sometimes that works out really well for them, just like choosing a famous actor sometimes doesn't. 

13 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Matt Damon is the star, his face is all over the promotion.  People keep tweeting out the posters and the ads - it's all him.  I've never seen another actor's face.  Yet it's about the Great Wall of China.  To me it's pretty self-explanatory.

If you don't judge a movie based off a trailer, how do you know what to see?  I won't say a movie is "shit" based off of a trailer, but the point of a trailer is to sell tickets and give a basic idea.  Constance feels insulted that Matt Damon is the face of the movie campaign and I think that's fair.

Agreed, the trailer should tell you what the movie is about and if this one is misleading they only have themselves to blame. Which in itself would be pretty telling; cutting a trailer to feature a white dude when the movie is about the Chinese and the white dude isn't even the hero? Racist.

Edited July 30, 2016 by slf

[Kel Varnsen]

On 29/07/2016 at 9:09 AM, Athena said:

The movie also stars Willem Dafoe and another actor American actor, but it's largely set and filmed in China. Legendary Pictures is an American film studio which was bought out this year by a Chinese Corporation. This will be Yimou's first English language film, but he's one of the most famous Chinese directors living at the moment (he also directed the Beijing 2008 Olympic opening and closing ceremonies).

I think this is a case where Hollywood and China are making a movie explicitly targetting money from both box offices. Hollywood has been trying to actively court Chinese audiences in the last several years e.g. the recent Transformers movies, Kung Fu Panda series. The Chinese have started to buy international film studios and they want in on the market share in North America. Hollywood actors are more well known internationally so by casting Damon, they get his star power in North America and Europe.

As a co-production movie written largely by Americans, the Chinese can also cut it so that it can appeal to their own domestic market and regulations (the CCP still has final say) and have flexibility in editing for the international markets.

So if this movie is a Chinese  production, wouldn't hiring Matt Damon actually be casting a minority? Caucasians are surely a small minority of the population of China.

[slf]

1 minute ago, Kel Varnsen said:

So if this movie is a Chinese  production, wouldn't hiring Matt Damon actually be casting a minority? Caucasians are surely a small minority of the population of China.

I'm pretty sure this isn't a Chinese production. There are Chinese investors but at the end of the day this is being produced by Legendary Pictures which as far as I know is an American company. Overseas box office is more important than ever these days so there's more interest in "globalizing". Which, of course, should not translate to white people always having the biggest roles. Especially since not every "name" actor in American is white.

[Ms Blue Jay]

9 hours ago, topanga said:

I have no idea what the movie is about, but--I wonder if it's a similar situation to what Don Cheadle described, when his European distributors told him he needed to add an international start to his all-black cast. The thing is, there are huge Chinese movie stars out there. Maybe we haven't heard of them, but aren't today's movies all about the global market anyway, primarily China?

International Star is code for white.  

Quote

 

Edited July 30, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[angora]

29 minutes ago, slf said:

Agreed, the trailer should tell you what the movie is about and if this one is misleading they only have themselves to blame. Which in itself would be pretty telling; cutting a trailer to feature a white dude when the movie is about the Chinese and the white dude isn't even the hero? Racist.

Very true.  Also, if the trailer is misleadingly cut to make it look like Damon is the hero when he's not, it's (yet) another demonstration that Hollywood STILL hasn't learned anything from the numerous whitewashing/Asian erasure/white savior/diversity fail issues that have been vocally pissing people off in recent years.  For all the talk from studios and producers about their "commitment" to diversity, the same shit keeps cropping up.  Which, in itself, doesn't instill me with confidence.

Not to mention, Asians have already been hit this year with Doctor Strange and Ghost in the Shell, and that's on the heels of a long history of erasure, yellow face, and dickery that includes Aloha, 21, The Martian, The Last Airbender, and Cloud Atlas, just to name a few from RECENT years.  I'd say Hollywood has to do a lot more before they earn themselves any benefit of the doubt.

[Zuleikha]

the mysteries behind the construction of The Great Wall in China as we follow two 15th century British soldiers who get caught up in the havoc caused by some inhuman element that the builders are trying to keep out.

And that small summary may or may not be accurate since  Damon, Henry Cavill, Pedro Pascal, William DeFoe, and Numan Acar are all listed in the cast list. There are clearly more non-Chinese people than two 15th century British soldiers.

"get caught up" also doesn't mean White Savior or even hero. It could mean the British soldiers blunder in because they're wrong place/wrong time and support the efforts, but don't lead the efforts. I saw somewhere else that the plot is an elite task force, so perhaps the Chinese emperor summoned great warriors from across the world (since I'll be surprised if Pascal and Acar are cast as 15th C. British soliders... although they could be!) to assist the Chinese efforts. Maybe the monsters are going to turn out to be affecting the whole world and the Wall doesn't have to do with blocking anything but containing some kind of portal. We have no idea!

 I'd say Hollywood has to do a lot more before they earn themselves any benefit of the doubt.

This isn't a Hollywood production. It's a co-production with China, and it's directed by Zhang Yimou. I also think any movie that is bringing the diversity that Wu herself has asked for deserves the benefit of the doubt. Seriously, what is the downside to waiting and seeing? Does Wu think her critique won't get any press if she waits until the movie is released and she makes it from a standpoint of knowledge? Because I'm pretty sure she'll still get retweeted and quoted if she does it on the opening weekend instead of now.

There are Chinese investors but at the end of the day this is being produced by Legendary Pictures which as far as I know is an American company.

No, it's being produced by Legendary East, which as best as I can understand is a formal co-production between Legendary Entertainment and China Film Group. Le Vision Pictures, which is a Chinese film production company, is also somehow involved in the production as is Atlas Entertainment, which is American. So there's a pretty even split on the production side.

this movie was thought up by Max Brooks and Thomas Tull (both of whom are white)

Max Brooks is best known for the book World War Z, which was international in scope and showed every part of the world working on their own to stop the zombie apocalypse. I think the movie went White Saviory (didn't see it--that's based on plot summary), but the book wasn't.  Also, I think it's an oversimplification to classify Brooks as simply white. I guess nowadays a lot of Millennials consider Jews white, but when I grew up (Gen X), we weren't included. It's very complicated--I like the phrase not-quite-white for talking about racial identity issues among Jews, Arabs, white-passing Latinos, etc.--but for purpose of this discussion, I think it's important to point out because many Jews feel representation issues as well. There aren't a ton of Jewish characters in movies or TV shows, and many of the ones that are present, are Jewish in a throwaway sense. They're often played by non-Jewish white actors and are often written by people who don't seem to know or care about how being Jewish makes for cultural difference.

[Rick Kitchen]

Riz Ahmed is an English actor of Pakistani ethnicity who plays a tech millionaire with the not-specifically ethnic name of Aaron Capoor (not sure what ethnicity that is supposed to be) who isn't a bad guy in Jason Bourne.  At least, no more of a bad guy than any other character in those movies.  But most definitely not a Muslim terrorist.

The bad guys are really Tommy Lee Jones and French actor Vincent Cassel (whose character has no name, but works for the CIA).

[Trini]

23 hours ago, Rick Kitchen said:

Riz Ahmed is an English actor of Pakistani ethnicity who plays a tech millionaire with the not-specifically ethnic name of Aaron Capoor (not sure what ethnicity that is supposed to be) who isn't a bad guy in Jason Bourne.  At least, no more of a bad guy than any other character in those movies.  But most definitely not a Muslim terrorist. ...

Never seen it spelled with a 'C', but 'Kapoor' (as I understand) is an Indian/South Asian name. So, sounds about right. But someone more familiar should jump in here...

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Never seen it spelled with a 'C', but 'Kapoor' (as I understand) is an Indian/South Asian name. So, sounds about right. But someone more familiar should jump in here...

South East Asian here: in all my life, I've never seen Kapoor spelled with a 'C.' And every Kapoor I've known, or famous Kapoors (most famous in Bollywood, of three to four generations of successful actors) have been Hindu. So, I don't know if using the C is Hollywood's or whoever's idea it was, as a way of Westernizing the character and/or making it possible for him to be Muslim.

[slf]

On 7/30/2016 at 6:26 PM, Zuleikha said:

And that small summary may or may not be accurate since  Damon, Henry Cavill, Pedro Pascal, William DeFoe, and Numan Acar are all listed in the cast list. There are clearly more non-Chinese people than two 15th century British soldiers.

"get caught up" also doesn't mean White Savior or even hero. It could mean the British soldiers blunder in because they're wrong place/wrong time and support the efforts, but don't lead the efforts. I saw somewhere else that the plot is an elite task force, so perhaps the Chinese emperor summoned great warriors from across the world (since I'll be surprised if Pascal and Acar are cast as 15th C. British soliders... although they could be!) to assist the Chinese efforts. Maybe the monsters are going to turn out to be affecting the whole world and the Wall doesn't have to do with blocking anything but containing some kind of portal. We have no idea!

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Hollywood writes and co-produces a movie starring one of America's most famous white actors in a movie where we "follow two British soldiers" and cut a trailer that 100% supports that summary. I have absolutely zero reason to think that summary isn't accurate given the promotional material thus far.

Yes, I am pre-judging this (as much as I can given we have a summary and trailer) but I think that's okay and also not a big deal. Because Hollywood is a multi-billion dollar industry with an indisputable track record of racism and cultural appropriation that hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt but, I'm going out on a limb here, will absolutely survive a little pre-release criticism. 

On 7/30/2016 at 6:26 PM, Zuleikha said:

No, it's being produced by Legendary East, which as best as I can understand is a formal co-production between Legendary Entertainment and China Film Group. Le Vision Pictures, which is a Chinese film production company, is also somehow involved in the production as is Atlas Entertainment, which is American. So there's a pretty even split on the production side.

My mistake, it's a co-production. Either way I think we can all agree here that this doesn't make Matt Damon a minority.

On 7/30/2016 at 6:26 PM, Zuleikha said:

Max Brooks is best known for the book World War Z, which was international in scope and showed every part of the world working on their own to stop the zombie apocalypse. I think the movie went White Saviory (didn't see it--that's based on plot summary), but the book wasn't.  Also, I think it's an oversimplification to classify Brooks as simply white. I guess nowadays a lot of Millennials consider Jews white, but when I grew up (Gen X), we weren't included. It's very complicated--I like the phrase not-quite-white for talking about racial identity issues among Jews, Arabs, white-passing Latinos, etc.--but for purpose of this discussion, I think it's important to point out because many Jews feel representation issues as well. There aren't a ton of Jewish characters in movies or TV shows, and many of the ones that are present, are Jewish in a throwaway sense. They're often played by non-Jewish white actors and are often written by people who don't seem to know or care about how being Jewish makes for cultural difference.

WWZ is actually one of my favorite books so I'm pretty familiar with Max Brooks. Identification is a thorny issue, to be sure, but I'm gonna have to object to not-quite-white when it comes to "white passing Latinos" lol; most so-called white-passing Latin@s are either just light-skinned or are white. I'm of mixed heritage with my father being Latino and my mother being white. I am not not-quite-white, I am a white Latina or a white woman of Latin descent (I go with the latter). DNA testing pretty well backs this. Perhaps I should've hesitated to refer to Brooks as white but I've heard him refer to himself that way and I know his mother was Anne Bancroft who was Italian and his father Mel Brooks has/had mentioned being of European descent a lot so I didn't see an issue.

Edited August 1, 2016 by slf

[Bruinsfan]

I'm just glad Henry Cavill isn't a part of the finished production (I assume he was originally considered for the Damon role?). Much more comfy with an actor that already gets on my last nerve taking the hit for more racial insensitivity if this does turn out to be another Whitey McCracker Saves the Colored People movie as the marketing suggests.

[Luckylyn]

So Harper's Bazar came up with a list of the 50 most romantic movies of all time.  All except one couple included are white.  They include Lady and the Tramp but not A Patch of Blue, Jason's Lyric, The Best Man, Something New, Brown Sugar or Love Jones? 

 

edited to add:  25 Best Black Love Flims   I am sure others can supply lists of great romances for other ethnic groups as well. 

Edited August 2, 2016 by Luckylyn

[Zuleikha]

Because Hollywood is a multi-billion dollar industry with an indisputable track record of racism and cultural appropriation that hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt...

The benefit of the doubt isn't for Hollywood. It's for Zhang Yimou, Pedro Pascal, Numan Acar, Tian Jing, Andy Lau... actually the complete cast except for Matt Damon and William Defoe, and for the Chinese production team. Wu is calling for Asian heroes, and it is entirely possible that this movie is going to give them to her. 

...but, I'm going out on a limb here, will absolutely survive a little pre-release criticism.

Maybe it will survive pre-release criticism... I'm really not sure how much pre-release criticism hurts things as the main movies I can think of that both flopped and were criticized for whitewashing or White Saviordom were also all reviewed as genuinely terrible movies. So if this is both a good movie and not an actual White Savior or Mighty Whitey movie, maybe it won't matter. But even so, I still don't see the point. The worst case is that it does hurt a movie that doesn't deserve it and the best case is... what exactly? Preaching to the choir? No one who's not already on board the importance of representation is going to be persuaded by an uninformed criticism! 

[topanga]

5 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

So Harper's Bazar came up with a list of the 50 most romantic movies of all time.  All except one couple included are white.  They include Lady and the Tramp but not A Patch of Blue, Jason's Lyric, The Best Man, Something New, Brown Sugar or Love Jones? 

 

edited to add:  25 Best Black Love Flims  I am sure others can supply lists of great romances for other ethnic groups as well. 

Great List  (Yours, I mean). I think it's sad that Hollywood only considers love stories abut white couples to be true romantic movies.  Sad but not surprising when you remember the fact that  the media called The Best Man not a rom-com but a "race movie."

[slf]

7 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

The benefit of the doubt isn't for Hollywood. It's for Zhang Yimou, Pedro Pascal, Numan Acar, Tian Jing, Andy Lau... actually the complete cast except for Matt Damon and William Defoe, and for the Chinese production team. Wu is calling for Asian heroes, and it is entirely possible that this movie is going to give them to her. 

Right, but Asian actors and directors - like many actors and directors of color - have worked on White Savior films. White Savior films, as a rule, feature racially diverse casts and often crews (Hollywood always makes sure of that). The presence of Pedro Pascal doesn't mean anything; he was on Game of Thrones and that show has gone the White Savior route with Dany and completely botched the Dorne storylines in an often racist way. And she's not slamming them so I'm not sure how she's not giving them the benefit of the doubt; she's not criticizing their involvement at all. Is she obligated to give Matt Damon the benefit of the doubt? The same Matt Damon that had to packpedal and apologize after cutting off Project Greenlight co-producer (who, as a black woman, was the only poc in the group) Effie Brown when she was stressing her concerns about diversity when hiring, so he could explain "when" you do diversity? (Who also said in an interview that basically gay actors might have an easier time getting cast if they wouldn't tell people they're gay, that "Whether you’re straight or gay, people shouldn’t know anything about your sexuality because that’s one of the mysteries that you should be able to play" in the same interview where he goes on and on about his wife and kids.) 

7 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Maybe it will survive pre-release criticism... I'm really not sure how much pre-release criticism hurts things as the main movies I can think of that both flopped and were criticized for whitewashing or White Saviordom were also all reviewed as genuinely terrible movies. So if this is both a good movie and not an actual White Savior or Mighty Whitey movie, maybe it won't matter. But even so, I still don't see the point. The worst case is that it does hurt a movie that doesn't deserve it and the best case is... what exactly? Preaching to the choir? No one who's not already on board the importance of representation is going to be persuaded by an uninformed criticism! 

The point is it's her opinion and her concerns, which as a woman who's been trampled by that system are valid. Would she have to keep her opinions to herself if they were positive?

It's not like she's attacking the film in a fit of bigotry. Constance Wu is a Taiwanese-American actress who's probably never been considered for half the roles (regardless of quality) she might have been considered for if she were white. She's an actress, this is her industry, she knows it better than either of us, and there is risk in what she's saying- she could be penalized for being so vocal. But she's tired of seeing movies where the white people show up and lead/save the brown people and I can't blame her for that, and it's not like the studio has gone out of its way to make this movie look like it's about anything else. 

Actors and actresses of color criticizing Hollywood movies for racism has not historically led to those movies flopping. Constance Wu will likely not be responsible for single-handedly destroying this movie's chances at the box office. 

Edited August 2, 2016 by slf

[Trini]

10 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

edited to add:  25 Best Black Love Flims  I am sure others can supply lists of great romances for other ethnic groups as well.

That link takes me back to the Harper's article; is this the one you wanted ?

http://www.bet.com/shows/bet-star-cinema/photos/2013/10/top-25-best-black-love-films.html#!/

Don't agree with with all on that list, but there's relatively few to choose from.  :(
I enjoy romance films, but yes, Hollywood needs more love stories with color.

[Bastet]

I dislike so many of the films on that Harper's Bazaar list (so much sexist tripe, and then so many just bland, boring films) it is clear the editors and I are not on the same page across the board, but it was particularly noticeable how white and heterosexual the list was.   Accurately or not, the exceptions felt to me like tokens, as if someone looked over the approved list and went, "Uh, guys, maybe we should toss in a film with POC and one with a same-sex relationship -- can an intern Google for a list of those and pick one each?"

[Luckylyn]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

That link takes me back to the Harper's article; is this the one you wanted ?

http://www.bet.com/shows/bet-star-cinema/photos/2013/10/top-25-best-black-love-films.html#!/

Don't agree with with all on that list, but there's relatively few to choose from.  :(
I enjoy romance films, but yes, Hollywood needs more love stories with color.

Oops.  Thanks for letting me know.  I fixed my link.

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

I dislike so many of the films on that Harper's Bazaar list (so much sexist tripe, and then so many just bland, boring films) it is clear the editors and I are not on the same page across the board, but it was particularly noticeable how white and heterosexual the list was.   Accurately or not, the exceptions felt to me like tokens, as if someone looked over the approved list and went, "Uh, guys, maybe we should toss in a film with POC and one with a same-sex relationship -- can an intern Google for a list of those and pick one each?"

Yeah, it's true that the inclusion of Love and Basketball and  Brokeback Mountain do come off as token choices.  It's ridiculous.  There should be more variety in the list. 

[xaxat]

22 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

So Harper's Bazar came up with a list of the 50 most romantic movies of all time.  All except one couple included are white.  

Love and Basketball is on the list but you missed West Side Story! Maria is Puerto Rican.

Oh, wait. . . . 

[JessePinkman]

Isn't it funny that the most diverse comic book movie probably ever, Suicide Squad, is about criminals...

[Bruinsfan]

It does have the awesome Amanda Waller to its credit, though. The movies are actually caught up to the mid 1980s when having a black woman of a certain age and size as an authority figure in charge of a covert military operation felt somewhat progressive!

Edited August 3, 2016 by Bruinsfan